Islam

Welby says Islamism is everything to do with Islam, and Muslim leaders must take responsibility

The Archbishop of Canterbury has boldly gone where other other religious leaders fear to tread, and politicians daren’t hardly ever go. Cutting straight across the liturgical denials of those who preach that terrorists who blow themselves up crying ‘Allahu Akbar!’ are “not Muslims“; and those who believe that slicing people’s throats on London Bridge shouting ‘This is for Allah!’ is “nothing to do with Islam“, Justin Welby has sounded a trumpet from his holy mountain.

On BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, he was asked directly by Justin Webb about the origins and inspiration of what we now call Islamism or Jihadism: “But when politicians have told us, as they have done, this is nothing to do with Islam,” Justin Webb ventured, “you’re saying that is a mistake, it’s a cul-de-sac, it’s not getting us anywhere?”

The response was unequivocal: “I don’t think it is getting us anywhere,” responded the Archbishop. And he went on to talk about the need to take responsibility for the theology of terrorism, that is, the Islamic theology of Islamism:

“There is a theology… and we need to counter that within our own tradition, and to stand up and say why it’s not acceptable… I think one of the problems in this country is a very high level of lack of religious literacy by those who have to take responsibility for countering these things… They often don’t understand the very basic doctrines of the faith they’re dealing with… They’re often people who are unable to put themselves in the shoes of religious believers and understand a way of looking at the world that says that this defines your whole life, every single aspect of who you are and what you are.

“We have to say that if something is happening within our own faith tradition we must take responsibility for being very, very clear in countering it.”

This reprises a theme he took in a lecture he gave at the Catholic Institute of Paris last year:

“..how can we expect to respond effectively to religiously-motivated violence across our continent if we don’t have the ability to understand it?

“..If we treat religiously-motivated violence solely as a security issue, or a political issue, then it will be incredibly difficult – probably impossible – to overcome it. A theological voice needs to be part of the response, and we should not be bashful in offering that.

“..Until religious leaders stand up and take responsibility for the actions of those who do things in the name of their religion, we will see no resolution.”

In short, we need to have a few more of what Theresa May referred to as “embarrassing conversations” about prophets and religious truth. The Archbishop of Canterbury is fully aware that the present struggle is global, generational and ideological, and that they key to countering the malignancy begins with robust theological education, not pussy-footing political pragmatism. And it doesn’t help to conflate cultural conservatism with extremism: “We have to draw tolerably wide values,” he explained. “Our history and culture allow people to hold very different views but the line has to be about violence and incitement to the disparagement of other people.”

No doubt today and tomorrow and next week and next year Justin Welby will be derided for denigrating the great faith of Islam and for singling out Muslims for special disapprobation. But this would be a purposeful distortion of his mind and an abuse of his heart. This is not about attacking Muslims – the vast majority of whom are manifestly peace-loving and law-abiding – but challenging Muslim leaders to respond robustly and theologically with what is done in the name of their faith. It is wholly inadequate for the Dean of Southwark the Very Rev’d Andrew Nunn to go on BBC Radio 4’s World at One (@58.00) and proclaim Islamic heroism and beauty: “In my reading of the Qur’an and of the various teachings in the Muslim faith, none of this (violence) is part of what is proclaimed there,” he said. “It’s a complete aberration of what Muslims stand for.” Well, clearly not all of them. This woeful hermeneutic and Ladybird-Book scholarship aids no-one’s understanding of anything. The Dean of Southwark (along with all our religious and political leaders) must apprehend and understand what the Archbishop of Canterbury calls “the dark side” of Islam if it is to be dealt with effectively: ISIS is undeniably religiously and theologically motivated; Islamism is everything to do with Islam.

But understanding cannot come without the educational assistance and expository acknowledgement of Muslim leaders. It is simply not enough for representative Islamic groups to issue pious condolences and ritual platitudes of outrage and condemnation in the wake of every proclaimed Islamist martyrdom: the next post-atrocity statement from the Muslim Council of Britain (which appears to be the self-appointed body representing British Muslims) must correct and rebuke the Islamists with quranic injunction and hadithic exposition. Then let the Prophetology-Christology debate begin, and then let us weigh the teachings of Mohammed with those of Jesus Christ, and do so boldly with faith, compassion and love.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom 10:14).

  • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

    Fully support Archbishop Welby in this, and believe it is a welcome blast of reality cutting through so much theological ‘fudging’…

    • bosco49

      This ‘blast of reality’ can be traced back to an address given by then-Pope Benedict XVI at the University of Regensburg on 12 September 2006 and which sharply clarified the issues confronting the Islamic and Christian turmoil in Europe and throughout the world. Benedict XVI was pilloried for it by both Muslim and liberal Christians but, in my estimation and in that of many others, Benedict was dead-on right.

      For those who might wish to read the address I include the link below.

      http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg.html

      • David

        I totally agree. I have studied both faiths, the one, Christianity as my faith, and the other, Islam, as an interested observer of the world. I read his address and then listened to the incoherent noise from Muslims and liberal Christians. Then I thought, hah, typical, it often takes time for any prophet to be proven right.

        • bosco49

          Recall too the rioting and bloodshed that this gentle scholarly address of Benedict XVI’s touched-off across the Islamic world.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Benedict quoted a Byzantine emperor on the ‘religion of the sword’, upon which Muslims rose up in protest using …. the modern equivalent of swords.

          • David

            Yes, which was not the fault of Benedict. Their reaction proved his point about Christianity being open to reason, whereas Islam is not.

          • “To Hell with Freedom of Speech”
            A slogan seen at an Islamic protest marches in Britain against Benedict. The sheer irony of it.

    • David Harkness

      Mrs P, I would largely support the AoC in his statements. I would however take issue with the notion that islam has ‘a dark side’. For that to be true it must be the case that islam has a light side. islam is darkness from end to end, it darkens men’s hearts and denies the Truth and the real Light of the World. I may be being churlish if the AoC was using a turn of phrase, but if he believes there is ‘good’ islam, he needs to think again. Sad that it has taken the deaths of a number of HMs subjects and citizens of other nations to get things to this point. We could have had a statement like this thirty years ago, and it would have been equally valid then.

      • orthodoxgirl

        I’m inclined to agree with you David Harkness. Given that the Qu’ran is a combination of peaceful and vengeful texts and directives, I wonder how they can ever be separated and at which point does a faithful believer move from one viewpoint to the other? This is the danger for me as I see it. I cannot accept Moslems are incapable of becoming radicalized and will only ever follow the peaceful path which Muhammad spoke of in the first part of the Qu’ran given that the underlying and overall message of their faith is that “it’s Islam or nothing”. Those who do not submit will be made to one way or another. I just don’t buy the idea that they only want to live in peace with everyone else……perhaps yes they do, whilst they manoeuvre themselves into positions of power, influence and authority in readiness to dominate all nations. It is not a faith which originated in the West or embraces Western thinking or values. Why do we still believe that the Arab mind will accept our way of living? This to me is one of the major stumbling blocks. Moslems living and growing up here may have adopted some aspects of our way of life, but their faith and the mindset which comes from that will always be firmly rooted in the Middle-East.

        • David

          Well said. These are my views as well.

        • RobinHMasters

          The violent and peaceful texts can be separated, and are by Muslim scholars who place the former in the Medina period and the latter in the Mecca period. The Muslim Doctrine of Abrogation means that the Medinan passages are authoritative and replace the Meccan passages.

    • john in cheshire

      He could make a gift of a Bible to each of the muslim preachers he comes into contact with; that’s something they are fond of doing with their book.

      • RobinHMasters

        Perhaps he could even share the gospel of Jesus Christ?

        But this is a big first step.

  • Stig

    Excellent article. Both archbishops are spot on here. You have to use theology to overcome Islamism. If you can’t do it from the Koran, then use the Bible, starting with Jesus’s statements about false prophets. It the very least we must not be shy about discussing these things in public, and if the usual suspect choose to ridicule it, it says more about them than us.

    • Paul Greenwood

      Mohammed was a false prophet and used Violence to control his Followers and Brutality to subdue his Opponents. Nothing has changed. You either submit (Islam means Submission) or fight.

      Theo Van Gogh was murdered because he made a film “Submission” (2004)

      Niall Ferguson’s current wife paid a price too……..

      • orthodoxgirl

        I’ve just watched “Submission” – grim. Nothing new here but it is still hideous to realise that this is the reality for more than a few women I would imagine. I shudder to think what those poor school children had to suffer at the hands of Boko Haram. Contrast this kind of life with the redeeming love of Christ for all mankind and it’s a no-brainer really.

  • Paul Greenwood

    The philosopher Josef Ratzinger delivered a speech in Sept 2006 at University of Regensburg which covered this ground exceptionally well. It did not please the Noise Factor but it related the basic truth.

    http://www.ncronline.org/news/global/regensburg-redux-was-pope-benedict-xvi-right-about-islam

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture

    • Anton

      It deserves to be said that Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments were something of an aside in a lengthy lecture on another subject; nevertheless he did say them, and I am glad of it.

      • Hardly. The title of the address was “Faith, Reason and the University — Memories and Reflections”. A total of sixteen paragraphs discuss Islam.

        • Anton

          His lecture was primarily about the relation of faith and reason, as its title suggests. I read it at the time. It is not primarily about Islam: just as I said.

          • ” It is not primarily about Islam: just as I said.”

            That’s not what you said. His comments were much more substantial on Islam than an “aside in a lengthy lecture on another subject.”

          • Anton

            If you are going to criticise somebody for inaccuracy it is as well to be accurate yourself. You wrote that a total of 16 paragraphs in the Regensburg Address discuss Islam. The entire address comprises 16 paragraphs according to the Vatican’s own website, and Islam is mentioned in paras 2, 3 and 4 before Ratzinger opens up his main subject.

            https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg.html

          • Well, Jack meant to say 3 out of a total of 16 paragraphs addressed Islam. The comments on Islam, far from being “asides”, were central to making his “main points”. Of course, it was also a serious critique of protestantism and sola scriptura too.

          • Anton

            When you are in a hole, Jack, stop digging.

          • It’s wasn’t an aside.

          • Anton

            Can’t be bothered. Let readers decide for themselves.

    • john in cheshire

      And had to distance himself from what he’d said because of the muslim backlash. If I remember correctly, he had to visit a bunch of muslim clerics, in their Egyptian University, to make the peace.

  • Malcolm Smith

    Let’s suppose there were groups of people going around, not killing people, but defacing mosques and the like. Suppose, too, that they were calling themselves the Anglican Army, Baptist Battalions, or Catholic Commandos. Let us also suppose that they were distributing literature and making videos proclaiming that such actions were not just permitted by their respective religions, but were genuinely desirable good works, if not actually required. And suppose, too, that it was clear that minority elements in these churches were being “radicalised”, taking them seriously, and being recruited. Would there not be a public clamour for the leaders of the Anglican/Baptist/Catholic churches to take a visibly active part in curtailing this movement?

  • Little Black Censored

    “…singling out Muslims for special approbation.” I don’t think you can have meant that, judging from the rest of the sentence. Excellent article!

  • ‘The line has to be about violence and incitement to the disparagement of other people.’

    Please can I still disparage people who are wicked and wrong? Then we’re in agreement. Thanks.

    • Does a Christian “disparage” other people? Really?

      • Consider: The perpetrators of this attack are wicked, debased human beings.

        I submit: 1) This is a perfectly acceptable Christian sentiment, with plenty of similar examples in scripture; 2) It is disparaging.

        Exhibit B: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

        Disparaging, no?

        Or should we operate with a more technical definition of disparage which excludes this kind of, er, disparaging language?

        • Jesus is God – without sin – He’s entitled to judge others. If we treat people we consider to be “wicked, debased human beings” with scorn and think we are better than they are, we are guilty of self-righteousness.

          Christians should one another recognise and overcome sinful actions and attitudes in a sincere spirit of love and not with the intention to punish, embarrass or disparage (Matthew 18:15, Luke 17:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 5:14, James 5:19-20, 1 Timothy 5:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:2).

          Governments have the right to act for the common good and take action against offenders who threaten law and order (Luke 20:20-25, Romans 13:1-7, Titus 3:1, 1 Peter 2:13-14).

          Churches have the right to excommunicate members who are disruptive to their mission (Matthew 18:15-17, 1 Corinthians 5:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15).

          • Jesus is God, yes, but he is also our example.

            Some further examples from non-divine men:

            Titus 1: 10 There are also many rebellious people, idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision; 11 they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for sordid gain what it is not right to teach. 12 It was one of them, their very own prophet, who said,“Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons.” 13 That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

            2 Timothy 3: 1 You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid them!

            Moral judgement is necessary and essential. It is prejudice, hypocrisy and resentment which are forbidden.

  • A remarkable turn of events. Congratulations to the Archbishop for telling the truth. However, as the ‘theology of terrorism’ was written by Allah himself, it is impossible to counter it without undermining the authority of the Qur’an, and to do that would bring Islam crashing down. The Muslim Council of Britain cannot ‘correct and rebuke the Islamists with quranic injunction’ when the Qur’an is on the Islamists’ side. Given that the world is stuck with a Qur’an that advocates violence, it is eminently sensible for non-Muslim countries to protect themselves by refusing entry to Muslims and by persuading existing Muslim communities to leave.

    The vast majority of Muslims around the world may well be ‘peace-loving and law-abiding’ but the fact remains that, in most Muslim countries, Christians experience varying degrees of persecution. Unless drastic measures are taken, it is highly likely that Christians in the West will suffer the same fate.

    • morbidfascination

      The problem is it isn’t really a “vast majority”. Even this piece is tiptoeing around the issue.

      • @ morbidfascination—Tiptoeing is often recommended when dealing with matters Islamic. Suggest that Muslims are not peace-loving and law-abiding and they’ll have your guts for garters.

  • IanCad

    Although not entirely on board with the notion of a national religion, I would have to say that as we are saddled with such we should thank the Almighty that it is the Church of England; and that under the primacy of Justin Welby.
    Repeating my prior contentions that it is the most difficult job in the world, and recognizing that such a role does not fit those of intemperate and hasty character, Welby’s seemingly slow transition to a position of commonsense on the Muslim controversy seems wisdom indeed. A steady hand at the helm is what we need, and to me, seems to be what we have.
    May the Lord bless him.

    • David

      Ian, we are both Anglicans I believe, but you are a far more gentle man than me. For whilst I agree with the broad thrust of what you say, Welby really ought to have said all this years ago, which would have undercut the waffling, painfully PC, do nothing, head in the sand politicians.
      Because of the unjustified delay we now have a far bigger problem to face than if we had acted earlier. The Primate of All England should have led on this, not come panting up the rear after so many years of sitting on his hands, and after so much death and injury, not to mention the rape of thousands of young indigenous girls.

      • IanCad

        That’s a generous assessment of my gentleness David , however, I’m afraid I was anything but kind when I made a comment yesterday about The Very Rev’d Andrew Nunn. Meekness is not my strong suit. Must work on it.
        Although I was raised in the CofE and still have a very soft spot for the remarkable institution I am a Seventh-day Adventist..

  • David

    This conservative Anglican who has studied both faiths, one Christianity as my faith, and the other, Islam, as an interested student of all theologies, politics and history, fully supports Welby’s position. This pronouncement is long overdue.
    Hopefully the largely, theologically ignorant politicians, which certainly includes all the current top contenders for high office, need to take their lead from these ideas.

    Whilst security services can try to combat the symptoms it is only by confronting and defeating the basic theology that we can achieve a satisfactory situation. There must now be significant change, both deep and wide, across the UK with a well financed follow through. The humanists and atheists who attack all faiths, not just the culprit faith, now need to realise that closing a Catholic, Jewish or Anglican school will not stop the killings. It is Islam that needs to change or be changed.

  • bluedog

    Let us pray that the revelation of Justin is flattered by many imitators.

  • Anton

    About time. I would rather follow those Christian leaders who were saying this before the 9/11 watershed, instead of multiple atrocities later; and those who warned of the effects of uncontrolled immigration from Islamic lands rather than those who welcomed it; also Welby seems to have a low opinion of freedom of speech. But he has let these words issue from his lips at last. The reaction – and his reaction to that – will be interesting.

    • alfredo

      Welby is entirely in line with his predecessor if he has a low opinion of freedom of speech. The sublimely inerrant Dr Williams not only attempted to silence but virtually excommunicated those who held a different opinion from himself on immigration.

  • orthodoxgirl

    Good article your Grace! FINALLY the ABC has spoken some truth! Good. Now let us see some follow-through otherwise it is yet more words.

    “The humanists and atheists who attack all faiths, not just the culprit faith, now need to realise that closing a Catholic, Jewish or Anglican school will not stop the killings. It is Islam that needs to change or be changed” – absolutely correct David.

  • bobo

    On the other hand we could just cut to the chase, admit that there is too much in Islam that is antithetical to a modern secular society, and begin implementing an exit strategy. We cannot impose a Reformation from without, and we cannot allow Muslims to reenact their own version of the Thirty Years War in this country while they sort it out for themselves.

    • bosco49

      It should be treated as the political system it is and deal with its adherents as one would with any political movement that advocates or tolerates violent political overthrow of nations and the slaughter of those who will not submit.

      • You’d have to ban the Communist Party and also all true Socialist Parties too.

        • Anton

          Which is exactly what you have celebrated verbally here in Franco’s Spain!

          • Yes, and if it can be shown that to be a Muslim necessarily means one is part of a murdering organisation seeking to subvert our nation, then Jack would happily see them banned. Jack isn’t opposed to banning subversive and violent groups.

    • The problem is the action proposed (“an exit strategy”) is itself “antithetical to a modern secular society”.

      • bobo

        Perhaps it may be antithetical to some of the Progressive ideals which we assume are central to secular democracy, but it may be necessary for the survival of that society in any recognisable secular and democratic form. Even if we have to divest ourselves of some of the more unrealistic and optimistic notions such as open borders, just for example, life in a democratic society which has stringent immigration controls is preferable to life under a totalitarian theocracy. Some sacrifces are, I believe, worth making.

        • Jack doubts secular societies with progressive ideals have a future.

          • bluedog

            True, but the secularists have common cause in trying to survive in the face of militant Islam. In the epicentre of Wahhabism, Saudi Arabia, atheism is regarded as treason and punishable by death.

        • Albert

          What does the word “progressive” mean? “I saw progress in an egg. I called it ‘going bad'” (with apologies to CS Lewis).

  • Pete Walker

    Excellent (& indeed highly surprising) for the waffly archbishop to get such a message out. But it is indeed woefully late. Many of us were desperately trying to put over this point (and it was largely falling on deaf ears) straight after 9/11 – and had been increasingly recognising the Islamist motivations when Hamas started bombing Israeli buses in the mid-90s. Still, perhaps the time is now right for some to start waking up.

    • Dominic Stockford

      When he was chatting with Imams recently, including those with dubious histories in what they have said, the comments he made told us that he clearly didn’t get it. yet now he gets it. It is amazing how God sometimes finds ways that will bring people to their senses.

      • Pete Walker

        Possibly a case like that of Balaam, who was expected by his ’employer’ (like the CofE in this case?) to say certain things, but then out of the blue he spoke God’s words of truth instead!

        • Dominic Stockford

          Good spot. Well done that man. Many upticks.

  • Tregonsee

    The idea that Jihadist have nothing to do with Islam is what is called a Category Error. A rather obscure term, but which essentially says you are incorrectly assigning a property to something which precludes, by the very assumption, arriving at the correct conclusion.

  • Merchantman

    Hugely important statement from Archbishop Welby. That took Courage. May this first raindrop turn into a mighty river.

    • RobinHMasters

      Amen!

  • john in cheshire

    Now Mr Welby should go one step further and confirm that muslims do not worship our God, the one true God. Their god is, in my opinion, satan. Why? Because muslims deny that Jesus is the son of God and the only way to the Father is through His son, Jesus Christ.

    • Anton

      Muslims acknowledge with genuine reverence a supreme creator God. They differ from Jews about His personality and his actions in human history, and differ also from Christians about whether Jesus died on the cross and is divine. Their god is not satan (or the moon), although one may well ask who is behind the distortions of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures that they believe.

      • Merchantman

        I must correct you on the point about Jesus. The Isa of the Koran is not Jesus, he is made into an imaginary Jesus.

        • Dreadnaught

          The entire entity that calls itself Islam is an exercise in plagiarism and founded on terror tactics thrown in for bad measure.

        • Anton

          If a man called John Smith lives at 7 High Street and works at Davies’ steelworks, and I wrongly think that a man called Jim Smith lives at 7 High Street and works at Davies’ steelworks, is it helpful to say badly that my view is of an imaginary John Smith?

          They get a lot right about Jesus and a lot wrong.

          • Merchantman

            The Koran makes not one biblical quote from Jesus’ own mouth. It is a rewrite. This is the alarm bell. The other thing I see is a lifeless Jesus to suit a purpose that results in a Cardboard Isa not Real not Truth in fact Lifeless.

          • Anton

            Please don’t think I disagree with you about that!

          • Merchantman

            OK!

      • Stig

        You might find this interesting. False propets can be identified by A) that they deny the divinity of Crist and B) by their actions. Mohammed, I’m afraid, ticks all the boxes. https://www.gotquestions.org/false-teachers.html

        • Anton

          Please don’t think I disagree with you about that.

      • Royinsouthwest

        I agree with you that if they genuinely wish to worship the Creator and try to follow what light they have then they are worshipping the same God even if, like the people on Mars Hill in Athens who erected an alter to “the Unknown God” they need someone to teach them about Him.

      • Manfarang

        When the Quran is placed in the context of Syrian Christianity and the debates over Arian, Nestorian, and Monophysite Christology that wracked eastern Christianity in the early centuries, its debt to Christianity seems clear. The Quran includes passages, for example, that reflect Syrian attacks on Monophysite Christology. most of the theological statements in the Quran-for example, the conception of God, Christology, and eschatology-arose from Syrian traditions of Christianity. Islam started off as a Christian sect outside the main area of Christianity in pagan Arabia and went on to be regarded as a new religion.

        • Anton

          I question your last sentence. Some suggest that it started off as a spreading not of Christianity but of Judaism, which remained a proselytising religion at that time.

          • Manfarang

            Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet and messenger of God. That is something which goes against Judaism.
            The Qur’anic interpretation of trinitarian orthodoxy as belief in the Father, the Son, and the Virgin Mary, may owe less to a misunderstanding of the New Testament itself than to a recognition of the role accorded by local Christians (see Choloridians) to Mary as mother in a special sense.

          • Anton

            Given that the Quran confuses Mary the mother of Jesus and Miriam the sister of Moses, I think you have no real evidence that “Islam started off as a Christian sect outside the main area of Christianity in pagan Arabia”.

          • Manfarang

            In the Christian tradition Bahira became an Arian monk, whose errant views inspired the Qur’an. Bahira is at the centre of the Apocalypse of Bahira, which exists in Syriac and Arabic which makes the case for an origin of the Qur’an from Christian apocrypha. Certain Arabist authors maintain that Bahira’s works formed the basis of those parts of the Qur’an that conform to the principles of Christianity, while the rest was introduced either by subsequent compilers such as Uthman Ibn Affan or contemporary Jews and Arabs.

          • Anton

            The earliest writers about Bahira are Islamic and 200 years later. This was not a literate culture and 6 generations of oral retelling can hardly be relied on.

          • Manfarang

            Nevertheless the compilers of the Quran would have been familiar with the Coptic oral traditions. The important point is the Quran was written in a similar manner to other scriptures. It didn’t float down from heaven.
            The Book of Mormon was said to have been written on sacred gold plates buried on a hill. Of course these plates disappeared.
            The Quran is in Arabic and it could be said to be God’s revelation to the Arabs. In fact only an Arab can be a proper Muslim, something that becomes clear to those familiar with the Middle East. The Imams of Islam as the Arabs call themselves. There are generations of Arab Christians of course.

          • Anton

            Oral tradition isn’t worth a penny as accurate history after 200 years.

          • Manfarang

            Probably but it had an important place in ancient societies.

          • Anton

            But what has that to do with the reliability of the information about Bahira?

          • Manfarang

            They prided themselves on their accuracy.

  • Good to hear this from the Archbishop of Canterbury. However, as Pope Benedict pointed out, there is no basis for reasoned dialogue within Islam, yet alone between Christianity and Islam. Allah cannot be fathomed, he is free to act incoherently and inconsistently, and one must simply submit and obey. His instructions were given once and for all to his prophet. The Koran was dictated by God, not inspired, and it is what it is.

    There’s no room for growth within Islam – just imposition. Therefore, how can Christian theologians engage in any meaningful, constructive dialogue when it? The real dilemma is that Western society has nothing to counter with. As a culture, we no longer accept the only sustainable counter against Islam – Christian truth and a nation based on it. Without this, we’re left only with the choice of toleration or eventual use of force against it. Toleration will lead to self destruction as we abort and contracept ourselves out of existence. Resistance will be costly. There are 3.5 million Muslims in Britain. It is estimated 20,000 are already potential jihadists – with 3000 of these being monitored.

    • mollysdad

      Once it responds as expected, the full force of the State will be needed to smash it out of existence.

      • As Jack said, it will be costly. The implication being that unless Muslims abandon faith they will face repression and exclusion from the public square. And if we don’t adopt this approach and continue to allow their numbers to grow, relative to our own, demographics will eventually exclude and persecute Christians.

        • Mike Stallard

          Actually there is a contrary view here. As Muslims enter Western Society, apparently, their birth rate declines to as low a level as the native population.

          • bluedog

            But that doesn’t stop them continuing to import brides from Punjabi villages who are conditioned to breed, effectively neutralising any tendency to a Western non-replacement birth-rate.

          • Anton

            The stats set out in detail in David Goldman’s book How Civilizations Die show otherwise. What IS true is that the birthrate in Islamic cultures that urbanise and westernise, eg Iran, has fallen spectacularly.

        • Linus

          Demographics have already excluded Christians. You don’t have nearly enough children to replenish, let alone grow your numbers. And when you do have children, large numbers of them abandon your faith as adults.

          Whatever happens to the Muslim population, yours has declined to a point where exclusion is inevitable. Islam is probably already the de facto single largest religion in most of Western Europe. So if the State wants to pay lip service to dialogue with religious leaders, it makes sense that Islam would be its first port of call.

          If you want to change that, you need to get Christians to have more babies. As your efforts to evangelise unbelievers are so spectacularly ineffective, new births within your ranks are the only way forward.

          Of course as you’re also spectacularly bad at persuading the children you educate to believe in what you’re teaching them, only a small percentage of these new births will translate into rising numbers of Christians. So growth will be glacially slow. Indeed given the demographic profile of most Christian churches, all you can really hope for is to slow the rate of decline by a few percentage points.

          Let’s face it: Christianity’s role as Europe’s largest single religion has already been lost to Islam. What can you do about it?

    • chiaramonti

      Benedict quoted at Regensburg the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II “Show me just what Mohammed brought that is new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” And didn’t he half get it in the neck for doing so when he was merely seeking to point out exactly what Happy Jack is saying.

  • Dreadnaught

    Rather obvious that a religion who’s texts are continually being misunderstood by its own followers, is a total falsehood.

    • Mike Stallard

      What are you on about?

  • Dreadnaught

    Facebook, Twitter, all of them are desperate to cover up the increasingly obvious connection between terrorism and the religion with a holy book that thrice exhorts believers to “kill them wherever you find them” (Qur’an 2:191, 4:89, 9:5) and calls upon believers to strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of the deity (Qur’an 8:60), who himself vows to strike terror in those who don’t believe in him (Qur’an 3:151, 8:12).

  • Anna

    “Until religious leaders stand up and take responsibility for the actions of those who do things in the name of their religion, we will see no resolution.”

    On the contrary, the lack of leadership does not exist among Muslims, but in the church. The Muslim leaders have long been doing exactly what they were called to do, not by the Archbishop of Canterbury, but by their prophet. Haven’t enough Muslim leaders stood up to take responsibility for the terrorism and urged the believer to continue with the Jihad, while others provide a cover of respectability and placate the West? We see now how effective this two-pronged approach has been. Does Justin Welby know what the imams say to their flock, as opposed to what they tell Western audiences?

    So, when will Christian leaders follow the example of their Muslim counterparts, and set about obeying their Master, by feeding Christ’s sheep and protecting His flock? Although these remarks by Archbishop Welby are to be welcomed, they have come too late. The whole point of Christian leadership is to discern the dangers well in advance and to sound the trumpet, so that people are warned of impending disaster and can be brought to safety. Now that Europe is burning, what good is it, if a Christian leader comes up to say, almost hesitantly, that perhaps Islam something to do with it?

    • Anton

      Indeed. I look to those Christian leaders who were warning beforehand about mass Islamic immigration.

      • Anna

        I watched bits of the Dutch election debates, and unsurprisingly, it was Geert Wilders rather than the leader of a ‘Christian’ party, who spoke up to defend Holland’s Christian heritage.

        • Anton

          Where is our Wilders?

          • Mike Stallard

            “We are committed to a campaign of public education to ensure that all aspects of Islam that impact on our society can debated in an open and honest way. ”
            – English Defence League website.

          • Anton

            Tommy is no Geert Wilders.

  • Sybaseguru

    The problem is that the Imams have no understanding of how to change their thinking to partake in a 21st Century western culture – any of them who tried got decapitated. How about lending them some of our liberal Bishops and Theologians and solve two problems at once.

    • Royinsouthwest

      I don’t think any of our liberal bishops or theologians want to be martyrs so they would agree to become Muslims if threatened with death, unlike many recent Coptic Christians. After Saladin’s victory over the Crusaders at the Battle of Hattin I believe he had all the Crusader knights who refused to become Muslims beheaded. (Please correct me if I am wrong).

      Strangely that was not mentioned in a TV program about the Crusades a few years ago which claimed that Saladin and the Saracens were far more tolerant than the Crusaders.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Our hope is found in Christ alone. So is theirs.

  • len

    Islam takes its’ authority’ from Judaism and Christianity but then denies the truth within them.
    Islam has a false Christ and the god of Islam is certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the God of the Jews.

    • Mike Stallard

      God is al-Lah.
      God is Yah.
      God is to pneuma.

      All the same – a breath.

      • len

        Interesting, but I was comparing the God of the Bible to the Allah of the Koran.

        • Mike Stallard

          They are one and the same.
          Islam accentuates the transcendence; Christianity accentuates the immanence. But the same God is worshipped by both.

          • len

            Cannot possibly be.
            There is only one God and allah is not him

          • alfredo

            This can only be true if the approach is to address God as he knows himself to be and not how we imagine him to be. Otherwise, the Allah of the Koran and the Father of Jesus Christ have virtually nothing in common except their designation in Arabic.

          • Mike Stallard

            We are both (I presume) Christian. So we both know the Christian idea.
            The Muslim one is logical. Mohammed was told by the Angel Gabriel (Jibril) to read/recite. What he produced was the Revelation from God. It changed him into a Prophet/Leader. A lot of his revelation came from the Bible – Old and New Testament. He insisted that the God who revealed the Recitation (Qur’an) to him was the same one as the Christian and Jewish God.
            My own problem – much as I admire a lot of Islam myself – is that i simply cannot accept the Koran. To me it is just a rather poorly remembered pastiche of what Mohammed learned in his travels in the caravans of his youth.

          • len

            Utter rubbish.
            perhaps you should have joined the Muslims?.

          • Mike Stallard

            len. On this blog you have to be rather more humorous, understanding and witty to score points. So I am afraid I shall have to award you just 1/10 for that. Yes, I am aware that Allah has no son because of Tawhid, I am also aware that Jesus, as soon as he was born uttered a long sermon. And, of course, Jesus’ name comes up more in the Qur’an than Mohammed’s.

    • Merchantman

      How do I double click up? Well done. As they say Islam is Fit for Fakirs.

  • Mike Stallard

    Hooray! Leadership at last.
    Good old Archbishop Welby!
    Just right. And true.

    PS As a Catholic, I remember the IRA who did very much the same thing as the terrorists. We need to keep telling ourselves this, we Catholics. One of the most attractive things about the Son of God is His total honesty in the Gospels and his acceptance and, yes, love of sinful humanity.

    • Terry Mushroom

      However, the IRA’s cause and inspiration was nationalism, not religion.

      • Inspector General

        Northern Command as it was called, which became the Provisionals, started out as a community defence association, albeit armed. That is why they were so successful.

        England faces the same if the talk talk is just that and nothing done.

        • Mike Stallard

          I warmly agree with IG on that!

        • bluedog

          What odds are Ladbrokes giving on Sadiq Khan finishing his term. I mean…

  • Chefofsinners

    Nonsense. This problem will be solved by pop concerts and one love. Light a candle, leave some flowers or a teddy bear. Maybe a shiny heart shaped balloon and a vigil. We need the comfort of religion-free grieving, hollowed-out rituals, with a form of Godliness but no power or meaning, shadows of a Christian past that we vaguely remember through the haze of hedonism.
    Hark! Even as I write these words I hear the sound of Islamic state throwing down their weapons, deradicalised men shaving their beards and women shaving their legs.

    • Anton

      We heard all this crap from the hippies in 1967 about the Cold War. It was crap then and it is crap now.

      • Chefofsinners

        You have hurt my feelings. This must be a hate crime. It’s because I’m transgender isn’t it?

        • len

          Good disagreement?…or go to a safe space?

          • Inspector General

            When the Inspector hears the phrase ‘Good disagreement’, he reaches for his revolver. (Thanks to Goering for that one)

          • len

            Ah, the good old Webley, steady now Inspector,.

          • bluedog

            Wouldn’t Goering have worn a pearl-handled Luger?

        • Anton

          No, no, I hurt your feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings.

      • Royinsouthwest

        Well, it is 50 years since the “Summer of Love.” All the Syrians have to do is hold their own Summer of Love this year and everybody who is anybody will go there.

        • Anton

          It is also 50 years from the recapture of Jerusalem by the Jews after 18 centuries, during the 6-day war. Hallelujah!

          • Merchantman

            And 100 years since Allenby walked in humility into Jerusalem.

          • Anton

            I meant 50 years to the day but Yes, this is the 100th anniversary year of the Balfour Declaration and a month later the taking of Jerusalem from Islamic hands.

            Incidentally Kelvin Crombie, the leading historian of these events, reckons it is a myth that Allenby’s choice to dismount and walk the last steps into Jerusalem was out of humility for its history, but rather a choice not to repeat the arrogance of the German Kaiser when he had ridden in pomp into Jerusalem a few years earlier – a message which he hoped the locals would understand. I’m not sure that Crombie has published this yet – he gave a seminar some weeks ago, setting out his latest findings, which I attended.

          • CliveM

            Can’t both be true?

          • Anton

            Yes, but Crombie went into remarkable detail.

      • bluedog

        Great music though.

        • Anton

          Yes, too bad they didn’t stick to that.

  • Inspector General

    All very well. However, the Inspector fears the Archbishop Welby, who is perhaps considering his options after his remarkably out-of-character contribution, may make a full recovery and throw himself down the nearest dark hole of recantation, only to pop his head up and bleat about how our civilisation is ‘enriched’ by these psychopaths and their murderous faith…those of us still in one piece, that is…

    One notes it’s a hammer at Notre Dame. Anything they can get their hating hands on, it seems!

    Stop the lying, stop the fake ‘refugee’ nonsense, and start the deportations, now!

    And here’s the astonishing thing. Islamic leaders in this country, the majority one would say, would actually AGREE with one’s previous line. But they could never be shown to publicly. They could be accused of apostasy, you see, and have their throats slit. In the main, they don’t want this imported violence. Not at all…

  • Anton

    Gavin Ashenden has a more nuanced view of Welby’s words than Your Grace:

    • David

      Thank you for drawing my attention to Gavin’s discussion. As you say he is considerably less impressed by Welby’s belated and reluctant comment.

      • Charitas Lydia

        It is becoming increasingly evident that Cranmer is a propaganda mouthpiece for Welby.

        • Not at all, he’s constructive criticism if Welby wants to, and I think he should, take note.

        • Anton

          Perhaps it’s becoming clear that Welby is good at fooling people about what he really stands for.

  • len

    lets forget Christianity and Islam (for a minute)

    Who has the truth, Jesus or Mohammed?.

    Which book contains the truth, Bible or Koran.?

    https://lightforthelastdays.co.uk/articles/islam-issues/bible-koran-revised-edition-december-2016/

  • len

    It would seem that some religions are created for the sole reason for opposing Biblical Christianity.
    The Word of God however will withstand all deceptions.

  • Charitas Lydia

    The Rev’d Dr Gavin Ashenden provides a completely contrasting view of Justin Welby’s interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f34O__HLRCU&feature=youtu.be

    • Graham Wood

      Charity’s. Thanks for the link. As so often, a very wise and discerning contribution from Gavin Ashenden. He really reduced the issue of the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity, rightly in my view, to a simple comparison between Mo and Jesus, and really there is no real comparison that can rationally be made.
      Perhaps to extend the simplicity of that approach still further, one has only to consider the acid test that Jesus himself applies for those who seek to understand who or what is “right” when he said “by their fruits you shall know them”
      One can delve into the many fundamental Incompatibles between the two faiths, but in the end the conclusive test which should be the clincher lies the question ‘what are the fruits’ – whether morally, socially, or from any other aspect. Or, can a tree with rotten, decayed roots, bring forth good fruit? Answer obviously ‘no’. Thus Mo was clearly a false prophet, and Islam itself a false religion completely incompatible with everything found in the New Testament.

  • CliveM

    Welby is right, society in general and politicians in particular are theologically illiterate.

    But then with regards Islam so am I and despite the enthusiasm with which it is debated here, I’m not sure I’m getting to hear the authentic voice.

    Blair use to boast of carrying a Quran with him. Considering this is as much his mess as anyone’s, I’m not convinced greater knowledge will be particularly effective.

    • Chefofsinners

      Christians don’t need a deep knowledge of every false religion. Society just needs us to proclaim the truth. Welby more than anyone.

      • David

        Christians who wish to understand the world they live in will benefit enormously from having a working knowledge of other faiths, but particularly Islam. Otherwise it is so easy for Muslims to deceive you. Yes, you need to know your enemy !

        • Chefofsinners

          Our enemy takes a legion of forms. The world, which we have forsaken, is full of twisted ideologies, more than anyone can comprehend in a lifetime. An hour spent contemplating falsehood is an hour wasted.
          “Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Philippians 4:8

          • Preach it, Chef!
            An expert on detecting counterfeit currency does not spend all his time studying different types of forgery; he needs to know exactly what the true money is like.
            .
            I’d really like to feel that Abp. Welby really knew true Christianity, but I’m not certain he does, and if he doesn’t, where does the man in the street look for guidance?
            ‘The hungry sheep look up but are not fed.’

          • Chefofsinners

            I know that Welby does know the truth. He needs clarity of vision and great courage, or to be replace by someone who has.

      • Maalaistollo

        Tut tut! We don’t talk of ‘false religions’ these days. It’s ‘other faiths’ now.

    • bluedog

      Know your enemy.

  • Anna

    Sayeeda Warsi’s solution to Islamic terrorism- silence the critics of Islam.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/05/britain-fight-terrorism-evidence-ideology-prevent-muslim-community

    • Royinsouthwest

      She claims that over a third of the referrals to the Prevent Programme are right wing extremists. Why so many? There was an attack of a gay bar in Soho by a nail bomber in 1999 and the mentally ill murderer of Jo Cox had extreme right wing views and obviously we want to prevent any similar actions but does any seriously believe that the threat of Islamic terrorism is only twice as great as the threat from the extreme right?

      Why then are there so many referrals of people to Prevent for holding “far right” views? Are PC types trying to sabotage the programme or trying to cause trouble for their opponents by referring anyone who thinks Tommy Robinson has been treated unfairly to Prevent?

      • Anna

        I think Warsi’s loyalty to Islam blinds her to its danger. That said, Europe is at a stage where there right wing ‘extremism’ is likely to grow as a reaction to Islam and left liberal indifference to people struggling to cope financially and otherwise. Whether this extremism eventually takes violent forms remains to be seen.

      • Anton

        There are so many referrals of rightwingers rather than of Muslim activists to Prevent for the same reason because the police prefer to target EDL patriot yobs rather than the Islamic community. That reason is a combination of fear of the consequences and political correctness.

  • Amir Samy

    I just want to say that even peaceful Muslims, when faced with Quranic verses or some hadith’s they stop congratulating us on the Easter, for example. So even ordinary Muslims are like undercover cells. Of course that happens with us in Egypt

  • Chefofsinners

    Welby is right to say that politicians are “often people who are unable to put themselves in the shoes of religious believers and understand a way of looking at the world that says that this defines your whole life, every single aspect of who you are and what you are.”
    As Christians we can understand this in a way that our bewildered and frightened compatriots cannot.
    Where Welby is horribly wrong is in giving the impression that Christianity and Islam are similar. Every time he has the opportunity to draw a distinction, he draws a comparison. Rather than denounce, he praises Islam.
    Why can he not simply speak of Christ, describe the beauties of our faith, adorn the teaching about our Saviour? It is
    everything we need for life and health and Godliness. Our politicians and people will never understand faith until they have faith. So Cranmer’s question must be put to Welby: How shall they hear without a preacher?

    • michaelkx

      Most of the Politician’s are not Christians, they may declare to be, but are not. ” Mat_7:16-18 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
      Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” If our politicians can let the sick go untreated, the old uncared for, while lining there own and there friends pockets. were is the “Fruit” we have to choose tomorrow, and there is nothing to choose from one is a Marxist, and the other is ……… I despair.

      • Chefofsinners

        This windy weather brought down an ancient plum tree in my orchard yesterday. Generations have played in its gnarled branches, rested in its shade, admired its blooms and enjoyed its fruit. However in recent years the fruit has been sparse and small. Now, as it lies on its side, the reason is clear: the tree was rotten at its core, hollowed out. It is only good for burning. I shall remember it as the Church of England plum.
        And yet, from the roots a tiny tree has already sprung.

        • bluedog

          It seems you ‘Like to watch’.

  • morbidfascination

    ” This is not about attacking Muslims – the vast majority of whom are manifestly peace-loving and law-abiding …”
    Not such a vast majority, if surveys are to be believed. And why should we expect it to be, given the fundamental teachings at the heart of Islam?

    • Manfarang

      In many foreign jails there are British prisoners. Does that justify the expulsion of British people. from foreign countries because a few of them are in jail in those countries?

      • Paul Greenwood

        If they are POWs because they have been engaged in combat then it is clear all similar persons would be interned. Whether you like it or not – war is being waged – whether you respond or not is irrelevant

        • Manfarang

          POWs are usually kept in camps.

          • Paul Greenwood

            Not always, sometimes prisons. There are different policies with respect to non-signatories to Hague and Geneva Conventions as Soviet troops discovered 1941-45 when they ended up in Auschwitz or Buchenwald……and German POWs discovered 1945-47 when they ended up dying in Rheinwiesenlager or as slave labour when Eisenhowever decided Germany as signatory to Geneva Conventions no longer existed as a legal state after 9 May 1945 so German POWs had no protections and could be starved

          • Manfarang

            I am not aware of a large number of British POW abroad. Most Britons living long term abroad are retirees or expats with a job.

      • Royinsouthwest

        British people who knowingly aided British criminals deserve to be expelled from the countries where the crimes were committed.

        • Manfarang

          Of course but the vast majority of British people living overseas don’t aid criminals.

      • David

        If those Brits, not in jail, were largely supporters of a religious/political movement that sought the downfall of their host country and its replacement by a tyrannical regime, would you think differently ? Or what about if they supported those hostile changes passively, by not actively reporting extremists to the authorities ? It is after all now akin to a war situation, don’t you agree ?

        • Manfarang

          That’s a bit convoluted. Western governments often seek regime change.

          • bluedog

            Only in the interests of promoting democratic outcomes. Thailand, for example, where the military have once again seized control.

          • Anton

            How hard would I cry if they did it here?

          • bluedog

            The military? What would the Queen, to whom the military swear allegiance, do. Tell them not to be naughty boys and to go back to barracks?

          • Manfarang

            So the British government will stop vote buying in Thai elections. I can image.

        • Merchantman

          As the situation deteriorates and poses an existential threat to democracy the chances are islam will be recategorised. The question is which state will be the first to do this?

      • Anton

        That is for those countries to decide. Once again you are trying to divert the subject from Islam in Britain, a subject for which there is no accurate analogy.

        • Manfarang

          I don’t think Britain will adopt collective punishment.

          • Anton

            That’s a matter of definition. I have argued here repeatedly that Islam should be recategorised by the British State as a political movement. If it was then categorised further as a seditious one, your premisses become inapplicable.

          • Manfarang

            The Vatican is a state so should the Roman Catholic Church be classified as a political movement?

          • Anton

            It insists on being treated like a country, with exchanges of ambassadors; that’s politics, so Yes. However it is not at present a seditious threat, as Islam is. So it should not go in that subcategory today. This isn’t the 17th century.

          • Manfarang

            It may as well be the 17th century as regards that ruling family in the Hijaz and Najd. Are you going to declare war in them because they are a political movement?

          • Anton

            At the right time and with the right allies, perhaps.

          • Manfarang

            But not as long as they are keeping the City of London afloat.

          • Anton

            Care to back that up with figures?

          • Manfarang

            Sovereign wealth fund PIF/ SAMA $ 759.3 billion.

  • cybervicar

    Spot on! ‘Islamism’ points to a software-fault in Islam namely that God is perceived as a “power” and no matter how merciful that power may be God remains a force who seeks our submission. Christianity points to the self-emptying divinity of the Godhead, the one who is love, and those who live in love live in God. This love is revealed in the Cross. No matter how awful I might be as a Christian I cannot but be judged by this revelation of Divine love. Everything measures up to this, even Christians who attempt to slaughter other Christians in the name of Jesus eventually are judged in the light of love. My sense is that Islam does not have this.

  • 1650again

    Christ warned of false prophets to come, wolves in sheeps’ clothing. A perfect descriptor of Mo and Islam. The two are utterly opposed. Any Christian who praises or excuses Islam is in effect calling Christ a liar and denying him.

    • Royinsouthwest

      Probably all religions, including Islam, have some teachings with which Christians could agree. A degree of tact is needed in discussions with people with different beliefs because if you merely insult their beliefs they are unlikely to stay around and listen to positive arguments for believing in Christ.

      That also applies to atheists and agnostics and to those people who would not actually describe themselves as atheists or agnostics but who think that religion of any kind is not for them and regard different faiths as a sort of hobby for believers rather like Morris dancing or train spotting.

      • Linus

        Morris dancing and trainspotting are harmless enough. I’ve never heard of a Morris dancer burning those who laugh at his pastime at the stake. Trainspotters don’t wander about mowing down non-trainspotters with guns and bombs.

        Slaughtering others because they don’t agree with your beliefs is a practice invented by religionists. Of these religionists, Christians are among the most hypocritical, worshipping as they do a so-called “prince of peace” and then engaging in crusades, wars of religion, pogroms and persecutions.

        Islam may be a problem in society, but the solution to it is not Christianity. Less religion, not more, is what we need.

        • Merchantman

          More slaughtered by Marxists and Nazis than any other belief systems. Huge numbers in 20th century. Marxists in Russia, China, Cambodia, Eastern Europe, etc., Nazis in Germany, Europe.
          Various extreme brands of Islam are ahead in 21st century by a mile and sadly coming to a place near you.

          • Linus

            20th century dictators were able to slaughter millions because they had access to 20th century technology. Christians would have done as much if they had had any power at that time.

            Marxism and Nazism were philosophies dreamed up by men schooled in the absolutes of religion. As such they bore many of the hallmarks of the faiths they replaced: authority-based belief systems in which idols were adored by the masses and zealotry encouraged. Modern atheism has nothing to do with them. Modern religion is just as idol-based as it ever was. So which is the more dangerous?

            I’ve never heard of a quantum scientist pushing those disagree with his theories off a tall building. Religionists do it all the time.

      • 1650again

        Tact yes, evasion of the truth no. Too many senior clerics have slipped into the latter.

  • alfredo

    Political Islam is a minefield for those senior clergy who are bright enough to realise that sooner or later they will have to face up to the cultural Marxism which has facilitated it. If the West had not been softened up by CM, militant Islam would be nothing like the problem it is today. But a generation is with us which, if it knows anything about Christianity at all, has been taught to believe that political correctness (cultural Marxism in its sheepskin) is an authentic expression of the Gospel, and the only one that matters. Until they get this sorted, Christian leaders will continue to be led up the garden path with the wool pulled over their eyes.

    • David

      That applies to liberal Christianity yes, but not to the conservative expressions of the faith.

  • dannybhoy

    Three holy and heartfelt cheers for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. If he is able to stand his ground and others rally to his courageous stand, he will be recognised as a truly great Archbishop, unafraId to stand for his Lord and his God.

    • andrew

      Expecting respect and reason from Muslims in the face of criticism of their prophet is beyond hilarious. Worked out well for rushdie. Bottom line, reason and respect doesn’t work with the devilish ummah.

  • Linus

    Watching Christians fight one form of fake news (Islam) with another (Christianity) is rather like watching Trump’s minions present “alternative facts” in order to spin events to their own advantage.

    One group of gibbering religionists cannot provide the antidote to another. They’re all suffering from the same disease – or delusion: namely that invisible, intangible, inaudible things called spirits somehow determine our fate and will take terrible vengeance on us unless we obey the religionists’ commandments.

    The only cure for Islam – and all other religions – is a good dose of common sense and rationality. Believe in what you can see, touch, taste, feel or hear. Treat all religions as fairy stories, for until hard evidence to back up their claims can be produced, that is what they are. Above all, don’t fight one fairy story with another. Christianity is not the solution to the problems posed by Islam any more than Gandalf is a solution to the problems posed by Voldemort. Fictional superheros can only defeat fictional villains in the imagination. In real life only hard fact can defeat childish superstition.

    • Anton

      The secular view is doing SUCH a good job of damping down Islam in France, isn’t it?

      • David

        Nice one !
        Yes THE most officially secular country is doing brilliantly isn’t it !!

      • Linus

        Islam is a religion that, just like Christianity, may be practiced freely by anyone who wants to. It is not the role of the state to “damp down Islam”. A citizen’s religion is his own affair.

        The role of the state is to ensure security and freedom of conscience for all citizens. When religion interferes with this, it can be legitimately curbed. So imams who preach jihad can be – and are – arrested and tried for incitement to violence. But otherwise the state plays no role in the organisation of Islam, or any other religion.

        By all means criticise our way of dealing with religion, but it seems to me that whatever you’re doing is no more effective. There are just as many Islamist terrorist attacks in Britain as there are here. So clearly you haven’t found a solution. State support for the Christian religion does not defend you from Islamist violence.

    • bluedog

      You sound frightened, and one can understand why. As a homosexual atheist your life will be uninsurable if Islam wins. A cold hard fact.

      You say, ‘Christianity is not the solution to the problems posed by Islam..’ You had better hope you are wrong.

      • Linus

        “…if Islam wins.”

        Wins what? First prize for most ludicrous superstition?

        Unlikely. Look at its competition. Christian beliefs in virgin births, resurrections and fruit that can impart knowledge into the human brain via the digestive tract take some beating.

        Christianity has a clear corner in batshit crazy. Islam seems almost sensible in comparison, although it too has its absurdities. But neither faith can prosper in a modern and diverse society.

        Even when brainwashed from birth, most of us will reject the fantasies of religion in favour of what we can see, touch, taste, smell and hear. That’s what our education system trains us to do: evaluate the merits of a position based on hard facts. Religion’s reliance on fantasy and prejudice rather than fact leads most of us to reject it. A minority of marginal personality types for whom real life isn’t enough may persist in their beliefs, or even be converted from a secular position. Immigrant populations may cling to their faith as a badge of identity. But minorities do not rule, so their positions relative to each other are of no concern to anyone except those who believe in them.

        I’m no more afraid of Islam than I am of Christianity or any other faith. Yes, as a gay man I would probably be killed if Islam ruled the world. But it doesn’t. And it won’t.

        • bluedog

          ‘But neither faith can prosper in a modern and diverse society.’ Typical secularist, unable to see human-nature as it is, and that’s not as the programme dictates.

        • Jenny

          Linus, can you ‘see, touch, taste, smell and hear’ love or hate, kindness or cruelty, generosity or selfishness, wisdom or foolishness? No! You can only observe the EFFECTS of those things. Similarly, we can experience the EFFECTS of believing in Christianity and trusting Messiah Jesus – freedom from guilt, depression, fears and addictions; healed relationships; transformed lives etc. And anyway, the creation itself, which you CAN see, touch, taste, smell and hear, is abundant evidence for the existence of an almighty, personal Creator.

          As for your confidence that Islam won’t rule the world, what if it should gain control of your country? Will you emigrate – repeatedly, if necessary?

          • Linus

            The EFFECTS of Christianity? Like divorce, you mean? Statistics show that Christians have a higher divorce rate than those of no faith. Must be all that freedom from guilt, depression, fears and addictions, eh?

            Healed relationships – you must mean every relationship except their marriage. Transformed lives – well, divorce certainly does transform lives. One imagines that child poverty must be a completely transformative experience.

            And as for “creation” being evidence for a creator, I suppose it is – in exactly the same way that fairy rings are evidence for fairies. I mean, come on! What other cause could there possibly be for that luxuriant ring of mushrooms growing by my front gate? It must be due to pixies and elves dancing in a circle. There’s no other possible explanation. All those deluded secularists who say it’s merely the surface manifestation of an annular growth of fungal mycellium clearly have no idea what they’re talking about. Fairies really exist and mushrooms spring from the ground wherever they dance. How do I know this? Because I belieeeeeeeeeve… and because my ego is the most powerful thing in the world, whatever I belieeeeeeeeeve comes true. How could it not?

  • andrew

    Just supposing jihadism was to stop tomorrow, and there was no violence in the name of Islam occurring in any way, (which is literally an impossible and implausible vision), augmenting Islamic communities in each and every western nation will continue to slyly agitate, politically, socially and culturally – against the indigenous. The number of mosques will grow, and areas from Bradford to Tower hamlets will continue to transform into cultural, Islamic toilets. They (Muslims) will continue to lobby for their own communities, causing sectarianism and suspicion, by lobbying for special privilege via the left and their useful idiot bridge. All the while preaching against our Lord and saviour, denying his sonship and all his claims. In the event of the aforementioned, unlikely scenario – would the evident lack of violence and carnage be enough to ignore the many pernicious cultural, political and demographic changes, brought about by the growth of Islam, and would what’s left of the loyal, Christian patriotic westerners be expected to settle and smile, as they quite literally lose their homelands?

    • bluedog

      We should be thankful that the Ummah are too stupid to follow the course you outline, and are announcing their objectives violently.

      • andrew

        The ummah use western freedoms and Western democracy to utilise and obtain what is right for their communities, without a shred of consideration for the indigenous Christian kuffar. To use the anology of an abused woman: imagine a man dating a woman who claims he loves and adores everything about her, yet in time he pressures her to change her attire, change her clothing style to one which suits his tastes. He informs her what she can and can’t do with her free time, and how SHE must change drastically for the betterment of their relationship. After her forced transformation, is she still the same woman, and does the man really love her? Why demand change upon that which you claim to love? I see this stance played out by Muslims all the time.

        This is why I look beyond the violence and atrocities caused by islamism. Children blown to pieces @ pop concerts are a sign that your nation is being islamised. Islamization and the growth of Islam IS the direct cause of islamism. For me it is very simple – Muslims should never be permitted into kuffar lands, irrespective of what the un or EU believe.

        • bluedog

          The violence may not be exclusive, but it’s a part of the self-defeating front-end cost that Islamic communities impose on non-Islamic host populations. Nobody has ever done a cost-benefit analysis of Muslim immigration and settlement. If it has been done, whoever did it is keeping very quiet. The case in favour of increasing the population through Muslim immigration is that it leads to growth in nominal GDP, which looks good on hairy chested international league tables. The problem is that the cost, reflected in endemic budget deficits, is extremely high. Fifty-sixty years ago, no-one ever spoke about MI5 and MI6. But now they are in the news daily as the massive cost of surveillance, intelligence gathering and counter-terrorism response required to keep the Muslims under control mounts up.

          One very much hopes that somewhere in Whitehall some bright young things are doing the maths. Namely, what would it cost to send the Muslims back to the Muslim world, against the continuing cost of welfare for a notoriously unproductive demographic that only gets larger, on current trends more dangerous, and therefore more expensive.

          • andrew

            Well said. And much appreciated!

          • orthodoxgirl

            Precisely. As I said a while earlier….I do not see the Arab mind ever aligning to the Western mind. Our values and beliefs are quite different and we are stupid if we think that will ever happen. The difference is far too great and besides they have no intention of changing their mindset….it is us who are supposed to re-wire our values.

        • Paul Greenwood

          “Christians” are hard to define nowadays – they sacrifice nothing for their faith and buy Indulgences whenever offered by the “Church”. They retreat for fear of being seen and heard and are prepared for extinction by a society with a death wish

          • Anton

            The congregation I am in offers no indulgences (beyond occasional chocolates after services) and if it did then I’d go elsewhere.

          • David

            The church I am part of upholds the traditional way of Christian life albeit with full use of modern technology. The sermons and hymns are traditional, full-on protestant Christianity in all senses. Most people in it make sacrifices for their faith and no “indulgences” are offered by the leadership.

        • Murti Bing

          I agree with what you say. However, as far as I am aware (and I may be mistaken on this – please feel free to correct if so) the word ‘kuffar’ literally means cattle, and we all know what happens to cattle in the end. Perhaps we should use another word to describe ourselves and not legitimise theirs, whatever it really means, for at best, it is a derogatory term.

          • andrew

            Agreed. I only use the word to highlight the reality too many Anglicans and push over Christians refuse to acknowledge.

          • Murti Bing

            Of course. I see your point.

          • orthodoxgirl

            I think it has a similar meaning to the Afrikaans word ‘kaffir’ which was used as a derogatory term for black South Africans during the Apartheid years. It actually means non-believer I believe, in reference to them being non-Christian.

        • orthodoxgirl

          AMEN!!! Please say this loudly to influencers, decision makers, our security forces…EVERYONE! Wake up world…wake up Britain!

        • DP111

          I agree wholeheartedly. We are heading to a civil war which will make Bosnia look like a garden party. That is if we are lucky. The other option is that we simply cede Europe to Islam, and Muslims can slit our throats, as and when they like, which is what they do in Muslim countries.

    • Paul Greenwood

      Bradford primary schools are already 70% Muslim even the so-called C of E Schools. Arabic is taught in secondary schools so children can read the Koran in original.

    • orthodoxgirl

      Exactly so Andrew and mirrors what I was saying a little earlier on in this thread. They proudly acknowledge that Islam is the fastest growing faith globally and their remit is to make it the ONLY faith globally. However, Christ has been telling us very clearly over the last 30 years that He intends to fix our apostasy and He will return in the not too distant future – read His messages through True Life in God (www.tlig.org). It is all there. He knows exactly the mess this world is in and the fact that so many Christians are asleep, lukewarm or refuse to listen to His earlier words to us through the Gospels, through his earlier prophets (e.g. Daniel) Plus His mother, our Blessed Lady has been appearing many times in different places with the same message – “repent, turn back to God, love my Son, listen to Him”. We must continue to pray for the conversion of the world and pray the Rosary every day as this ties up Satan in knots. It is the most powerful weapon against the supernatural power of evil which is permeating every aspect of our human existence.

      • DP111

        Islam is growing rapidly as Muslim women are always pregnant. They dont go to work. And we pay them for every baby they have. We are paying for our own demise. Muslims must laugh at our stupidity.

  • James Laurie

    Well done its a about someone spoke out on this matter.How can a Mosque run with a radical leader for years
    as has happened and nobody reports the matter to the police. May be they did and nothing was done.Political correctness has a lot to answer for.

    • Paul Greenwood

      No. MI6 recruits here and slips them into Libya, Syria, Chechnya to fight……..MI5 recruits them to inform. There are no “oversights”…….these are “human drones” used by MI6 and CIA as cannon-fodder and looked after. It has long been strategy going back to the days when US/UK built a mosque in Munich for the Muslim Brotherhood in 1957

  • Although I don’t think Welby was quite as explicit in his radio interview as this article suggests, his point is very valid. These attackers obviously think that they are acting in the name of Islam; Muslim scholars need to demonstrate, robustly and theologically from within Islam, why this is not the case. If they fail to do this, the suspicion will remain that they cannot. Handwringing and cherry picked Koranic verses are not enough.

    • Paul Greenwood

      They cannot because IT IS the case. It is well-founded in Islam and it is how Islam converts Unbelievers into Believers and always has been

      • Precisely. Which is exactly why this conversation needs to happen. If someone was doing this in the name of Christianity, a robust theological rebuttal would be made from Scripture and church tradition. We keep being told these terrorists are not following the real form of Islam and that the violent parts of the Koran and Hadith don’t really mean what they say, but I have yet to hear a Muslim theologian expound on what they actually do mean, or what real Islam actually is.

        The secular world is happy to try to pull Christianity apart under a microscope, but allows Islam to hide in the shadows.

        • DP111

          Conversation is useless. War is the only thing that persuades Muslims. It is a sad fact that it is religion of war, spread by the sword, and keeps its votaries by the sword.

          • Conversation is never useless. This isn’t about persuading Muslims of anything, it’s about opening up the reality of Islam to public scrutiny and shining a light on it. At the moment, the truth is being buried because there’s no honest discourse.

    • DP111

      These attackers obviously think that they are acting in the name of Islam; Muslim scholars need to demonstrate, robustly and theologically from within Islam, why this is not the case. If they fail to do this, the suspicion will remain that they cannot. Handwringing and cherry picked Koranic verses are not enough.

      They are acting according to the tenets of Islam. Any attempt by Muslim scholars to go against these tenets, and they will be killed. Any apostate will be killed. That is what Mohammed advised too. To equate Mohammed, a mass murderer, to Lord Jesus is arrogance of Muslims, and contempt of not just Jesus but truth itself.

  • Brendan McNeill

    Here’s the thing. Christian infidels have no ability to influence Islam. We are not going to be the initiators of reform. Islam has seen various reformers over its 1400 year history. They are all dead or marginalised.

    Violent Jihad is intrinsic to an orthodox understanding of Islam, and the teaching and example of Mohammad.

    There is no peaceful ‘solution’ to the problem of Islamic Jihad, other than internment and deportation of known jihadists.

    We are not there yet, but we will be.

    • Leah

      You’re right that christian infidels cannot influence Islam. But they can perhaps influence some muslim leaders, who in turn may at least attempt to influence Islam.

      • DP111

        The only thing that influences Muslims is victory or defeat. The core of Islam is violence. I pray for the tens of thousands of Christians being persecuted, murdered and even crucified by Muslims, in a parody of the crucifixion.
        .
        I cannot understand why our ignorant politicians allowed Muslims into the West. Now we will be paying the price. Hundreds of innocents killed each year in gruesome terrorist attacks, while Taqiiya merchants pretend it has nothing to do with Islam.

  • Vincent

    Prayer for Muslims now .
    Because it is Ramadan, Muslims are themselves praying for revelations from allah, but all over the world Jesus is appearing to them in dreams and visions.
    Typically after such an encounter they commit to Christ, after a little time of re-evaluation.
    Also many Muslims are becoming disillusioned with the evils done in their name and are realising its evil nature.
    These too are coming to faith in Jesus.

    • michaelkx

      Prayer for Muslims now . good idea it is the most powerful thing we can do.

    • Anton

      Yes. You can get a course of Christian prayer for Muslims during this Ramadan from

      https://www.pray30days.org/

    • Inspector General

      Cranmer once covered the case of a muslim who tried to leave Islam. The accompanying picture was the man in his hospital bed. One wonders if convictions were ever forthcoming, or more likely, the investigation “is still on-going”…

      • Vincent

        The police’s policy on dealing with Muslims has been demonstrated in Rotherham and elsewhere.
        They have been largely taken over by the liberal-left and are pusillanimous in any dealings with Islam.
        The fear of being seen as non pc and described as ‘racist’ has trumped the rights of many thousands of young girls not to be serially abused.

        • orthodoxgirl

          No doubt the police force has ensured ‘fairness and tolerance’ by actively recruiting Muslim officers who serve to educate/moderate the ignorant, intolerant public – yes, that’s you and me (!!). Appeases the imams and keeps us shut down well and truly.

        • disqus_H5PxxcOOnT

          In the Rotherham case it actually had a lot more to do with the local police’s prejudice attitudes towards the girls being abused. They viewed them as ‘sluts’ and ‘prostitutes’ rather than as victims of abuse and so didn’t take them seriously. The documentary drama on this on the BBC, ‘three girls’ portrays this very well. The failed justice system you are referring to had a lot more to do with our in-bedded patriarchal society than it did with fear of being called racist. It was actually an officer of Pakistani decent that looked over the files and opened up the case again after it had been dismissed.

          • Vincent

            You may well be right however it is documented that the loss of career and fear of the racist label was key.
            Remember the BBC suffer from the same problem so they are hardly likely to reveal Islamic supremacism or police pc dogma to be the root cause.

          • Richard B

            For what it may be worth, ‘Sultan Knish’ aka award-winning Daniel Greenfield dug into this and connected it to UK’s support of Libyan jihadis when commenting upon the M/c Arena atrocity.

    • orthodoxgirl

      I pray continuously for the conversion of souls which all Christians must do. Otherwise they are eternally damned unless they repent and ask for forgiveness at the point of death.

      • Vincent

        Amen-this is what we must do.

    • DP111

      The evil that is being done by Jihadists is because it is written in the Koran, and fortified by the example of Mohammed.

    • John Ramzan

      Many Muslims also see Mohammed and stay where they are the problem there is your understanding of what the vision is about, I see both of them and they laugh and walk together as one. There is a beautiful hadith, oh Mohammed ther are to many sanctions placed in Islam, I can’t stay in Islam, Mohammed replied then just recite la ilah ilaah Allah Mohammed rasool Allah. The man was happy and went on. Just like moses had to bring a people from there old ways Mohammed did the same.

      • Richard B

        Ever so briefly John: If that’s your ‘experience’ you haven’t tested the spirits as a spirit-led follower of Jesus would; Eg. Johanna Michelsen in ‘The Beautiful Side of Evil’ (1982) gives an example of M spirit’s reaction to the ‘Word of God’, He who is the true Light. Demons, in our experience, can pose as a ‘Jesus’ (another reason why it’s essential to know who one is in Him and how to combat deception!).

        • John Ramzan

          I’ve seen the deception and heard the deception , I’ve been through this, how ever I just thought I’d tell you, tested by God the almighty, met Jesus aswell, toy know when you meet Jesus and Mohammed, God is with them, the only power that a demon has is the power you give it. End of. It’s important to know who is talking to you but with the light of Allah and the encouragement of the prophets well that’s one of the keys to the kingdom, junnah. It wasn’t easy but I know now what the prophets where teaching and why, to totally totally trust in Allah, know yourself. Watch them demons run when you see the prophets.

          • John Ramzan

            What’s also interesting Richard is that I see in a waking vision when walking past some mosques either light or in some other mosques a Arab looking face with a black mouth, also the same with some churches either light or a devil figure over the church, I came to realize which mosque or church to stay away from, however next time it happens I will be enquiring inside it’s always a shock at first. Sometimes the vision is always there when I walk past the places of worship other times they have changed, as I come to understand ther getting better, difficult thing to teach, but I find its reassuring to be guided, I pray for every one to see and hear, may the blessings bestowed upon Jesus and Mohammed through our Lord the creator be bestowed upon you and your family and be welcomed in to heaven and also that what I have not asked for as only the lord knows ameen.

        • John Ramzan

          Thankyou for your concern. Always appreciated from Allah

        • John Ramzan

          What’s also interesting Richard is that I see in a waking vision when walking past some mosques either light or in some other mosques a Arab looking face with a black mouth, also the same with some churches either light or a devil figure over the church, I came to realize which mosque or church to stay away from, however next time it happens I will be enquiring inside it’s always a shock at first. Sometimes the vision is always there when I walk past the places of worship other times they have changed, as I come to understand ther getting better, difficult thing to teach, but I find its reassuring to be guided, I pray for every one to see and hear, may the blessings bestowed upon Jesus and Mohammed through our Lord the creator be bestowed upon you and your family and be welcomed in to heaven and also that what I have not asked for as only the lord knows ameen.

          • Richard B

            Very interesting, thank and bless you and yours John

  • Damon Eden Greville

    Muslims have no mandate for peace whatsoever. As long as there are verses in the Quran that read “Kill them wherever you find them.”, – referring to non-Muslims, particularly Jews and Christians, – there will be no peace. Also, Muslims believe that they have no obligation to tell the truth to non-Muslims, so you cannot trust any agreement they make, or anything they say. Please note, I am NOT anti-Muslim. I love Muslims, and spend a lot of time with them. But they are deeply deceived and confused, and caught up in cult that keeps them in bondage, with no real hope. They need to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, the One who called Himself the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

    • orthodoxgirl

      Yes agree with this wholeheartedly. I too, have worked with great people who hold to the Muslim faith but I could never work out how they could reconcile their faith with the one which murdered and abused human beings (I shudder to think how they regard and treat animals). If the rest of the world expects Muslim’s to change or amend their thinking/behaviours then the world is deluded. The only way for them to change is to follow Christ. He knows they are stuck, which is why He is appearing to many across the world at the moment. The evil which is being played out on the earth is as much about a battle on a supernatural level between the powers of Satan and God’s Heavenly beings as it is about humanity struggling to ‘find its way back home – to God the Father through Our Lord Jesus Christ’. Kyrie eleison. Jesu mercy, Mary pray.

      • John Ramzan

        Conjecture

  • Ian Ellison
    • DP111

      Let us consider the hypothetical situation that ALL Muslims at present living in the West, accepted the call to clean up their communities of extremism, and became as moderate as we would like. They even went further and made the changes in their teachings of the Koran and the jihad. Such an outcome would no doubt come as a relief to many on this site, the government, the MSM, and elsewhere. But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever-increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of Muslims will simply revoke any changes, and return to the traditions of the unchanging and unchangeable Koran i.e., the canonical texts of Islam that cannot be changed, but only protected when under duress. That future generation of Muslims, far more numerous then now, will even praise this generation of Muslims for having done what was necessary to protect Islam.

      Islamic ideologues take the long view – in several decades or centuries, or more. It is only right that we as well consider options keeping in mind Islam’s long-term goals. Therefore, from a practical viewpoint, a “reformed” Islam sometime in the far future, is meaningless as far as our survival as a historic nation is concerned.

      Islamisation of the West is a one-time deal. Virtually all countries in the ME were once Christian. Now look at what is happening to Christians there. Our NATO partner Turkey, is almost Christian free.

  • 1DavidMilne1

    On the assumption that this report is entirely accurate, then Archbishop Welby is doing us all a huge favour by speaking the simple truth. Sayyid Qutb, a leading figue in the Muslim Brotherhood, was greatly influenced by Abdul Ala Maududi when he called for the reinstatement of Islam as both a divine and a political force using all necessary means after Turkey’s caliphate had been disbanded by Ataturk in 1924. Qutb’s brother Muhammed fled Egypt and lectured in Islamic Studies at a Saudi Arabian university. One of his students was Osama bin laden. That did not end well. It seems the so-called moderate Muslim Council of Britain are followers of Maududi too.

  • DP111

    Islam is all about Mohammed. One can criticise Islam or Allah,. and Muslims will not be too upset. But criticise Mohammed, and death threats are sure to follow. And made good as and when conditions permit.

    The life and times of Mohammed are slightly different from our Saviour Lord Jesus.

    What our politicians have imported is an ideology that has destroyed civilisations everywhere, because they successfully invaded. Europe though defeated Islamic invasions. But to the the utter surprise of Muslims, ignorant and idiot European politicians, particularly the EU, opened the borders to Muslims and Islam.

    No matter what transpires in the Brexit dealings, we have to shut the UK to Islam.

    • John Ramzan

      No you shouldn’t shut the UK to Islam, islamiphobia should be explained to people like you. Our own children in England and over seas should be taught about radicalisation indoctrination to name but a few. Peace be upon you

    • John Ramzan

      What our pollitions have done is allow people into the country for sanctuary from war torn areas of the world I’m referring more so to the middle east, that’s a very Christian thing to do, don’t you think, the message of Islam is peace always has been always will be, there are people who twist for political gain, Mohammed is a pacifist, but if you follow the discourse on the net then you would say he is not, based in current affairs.

      • John Ramzan

        Mohammed had to fight to protect his people from the onslaught of pagens, moses had to fight to free his people, there are two forms of jihad the minor jihad which can be looked at like national service, the problem here is small groups of people with an ideology similar to the Ira who take it upon them selves and declare war on people who do not share the same views, then there is the major jihad the one of the heart and mind where Jesus and Mohammed advercate this more than the minor jihad, jihad means to struggle.

  • DP111
  • John Ramzan

    Jesus taught Islam, can any one tell me what Islam is now? To believe in one God the same God as Abraham I think people should remember that when all around them is chaos, if you find something in the quran that doesn’t sit right with you goto the injeel, goto the torah, don’t sit here and say Mohammed is this and Mohammed is that, the man started a nation from nothing and brought a lot of truths back to the Christian teachings I’m speeking of that time not now. Argue that point if you must, it is pointless. And a waste of time. Jesus is perfect Mohammed is evil my Prophet is better than your prophet truth is no prophet is perfect they are human. You know what do any of you have visions waking or asleep have any of you met any of the prophets, well let me tell you this I have quite alot, the Mohammed I see is not like how you people understand, this man is 1400 years old and very wise and kind he doesn’t teach me about reading the quran he teaches me and guides me on how to hear and that it is in Allah’s hands to teach the quran to humanity each and every generation, what I came to understand is that the quran is recited through Allah his angels and at that time to his prophets and still to his prophets to his people ie humanity. I am taught to use the heart when I’m sat with him however when I have read the quran I am taught the understanding the essence, I am shown through Allah sometimes his Angels a history of a time and why certain things are written this is called belief this is what our prophets taught us. Don’t sit here and judge Mohammed you do yourself an injustice. This is called unity between his ummar and his prophet, I speek of Allah. No it is wrong to threaten someones life if our prophet is called a name, ‘ if an enemy strikes you bring them closer’. The problem is emotion of an individual. Go and sit down in a quite place and ask, this is called pray go and listen, go and ask, truth is people think they know that what they do not. Teach the children about peace that is Islam and the true message sent forth by every messenger, Islam this Islam that, you haven’t got a clue, sit beside me and ask me and I will show you, no im not saying Jesus I’m saying God, revelations come to us every day but most don’t realize. Exactly the same as Mohammed and Jesus that’s what I got told and that’s the truth. Let the comments begin, sorry for my punctuation.

  • John Ramzan

    Walk the path of there is only one God, walk the path of thou shall not create graven images of other gods, walk in the path of he who created you, that’s the essence of Islam, turn off your Internet and do it, learn to listen then you will understand what faith is what the prophets where talking about, you sound like bunch of hypocrites the blind leading the blind, your very much in danger of becoming self radicalised and that will resonate in every one. Do any of you know. You call your self Christians people of Al kitab, Muslims call them selves Muslims when they blow them selves up. Then you blame Mohammed, you don’t even know him, then you call Muslims, you sound like a bunch of nazi’s but you can’t see it because your not on the receiving end, walk in a person’s footsteps, canonised quran, scary business that, canonised Bible very scary, same with the torroh, what is the truth. Sit beside me and ask. Turn of your tvs and Internet and come and listen, and I will teach you. Peace be upon you all

  • DP111

    Muslims are influenced by “victory” and its partner “defeat”. Muslims believe that in Islam, they have a religion that will grant them territory and booty, wealth and sex, as long as they believe in Allah and Mohammed. Money, power and sex, and no work but that done by the defeated Christians and Jews.

    Islam has been waging war on Christendom for the last 1200 years at least. We need to respond in like manner. Defeat and humiliate, till the message gets across that Allah’s promise is worthless. If they wish to connect their defeats to a “Christian” god, that is their error.

    And if any Muslim nation responds with a nuke, then Three Conjectures follow.

    http://belmontclub.blogspot.co.uk/2003/09/three-conjectures-pew-poll-finds-40-of.html

    We cant go on like this, waiting for the next mass murderer to kill dozens, if not hundreds of young boys and girls, while the Jihadis relish and enjoy the moment.

  • DP111

    Islamic extremists who carry out acts of terror are simply applying what their faith requires of them, according to Jesuit Father Henri Boulad, an Islamic scholar of the Egyptian Greek Melkite rite.

    In an interview with the National Catholic Register, Father Boulad said that “Islam is an open-ended declaration of war against non-Muslims” and those who carry out violent jihad are true Muslims who are applying exactly what their creed demands.

  • Phillip

    Maybe sharing my personal dilemma, some may think again.
    In the public domain, like here, the distinction between those unfortunate people who have been born into and raised in the politico-religious culture allegedly commenced by revelations to a man about 1500 years ago and the institution of Islam as a principality or power or dominion is often blurred.
    Historical scholarship properly practised provides old and new evidence that one legion in the ubiquitous and perpetual spiritual warfare against the good, the true and the beautiful is Islam.
    The institution is diabolically cleverly fashioned and even today the fellowship of believers in the life, death and resurrection of God become man are without clear leadership in how to live in the face of this enemy.
    Two extremes present themselves for consideration – a properly called, convened, resourced and managed Universal Crusade or a clear and unambiguous instruction to the faithful followers of the Way to go like lambs to the slaughter.
    Where is there instruction about the innocence or sinfulness of accepting dhimmitude from our pastors?
    When I contemplate it, standing alone before the powerful and self-assured jihadi warriors, I stand convinced that accepting dhimmitude is grave sin as it seems to deny Christ.
    Allah is not one of the names of Almighty God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Mohammed if he is not a character of fiction is a false prophet and the Koran is not the same body of writing as either the Hebrew bible or the Old and New Testament.