welby christian support for trump
Democracy

Welby: “I really, genuinely do not understand” Christian support for Trump

The Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby was interviewed by Robert Peston on Sunday. He spoke about the British economic model, economic justice, investment, skills, apprenticeships, automation, robotics, AI, equality for all, food-banks, housing, Brexit, Northern Ireland, trade, unionist identity, the Good Friday Agreement, public enemies, and media headlines which stir up hate and division.

Before you kick him, he also spoke about Jesus’s command to care for and love the poor, the judgment of the Old Testament prophets, the need to build communities by loving one another, and the imperative of reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ.

So far, so good.

Then Peston mused about the “amazing support” which Donald Trump has from Christians in America. “Do you understand why fundamentalist Christians in America are so supportive of Donald Trump?” he asked the beaming Archbishop.

Rabbit…. headlights…

“There’s two things going through my mind,” Welby cogitated. “Do I say what I think, or do I say what I should say? And I’m going to say what I think.”

Marvellous, thought the ‘Peston on Sunday’ producers, as they contemplated the imminent Twitter storm and media furore.

Marvellous, thought Christians everywhere: the transparency, integrity, honesty of the man. What a breath of fresh air.

And then it comes: “No, I don’t understand it. I really, genuinely, do not understand where that is coming from,” said the Archbishop, speaking exactly as he thought.

There was a bit of rambling before Peston reprised: “But the fundamental point is that you don’t understand why the fundamentalist Christians in America seem to regard him as being the answer.”

The Archbishop raised his hands, more in bemusement than blessing. “No,” he said, “But then… I mean, you look… you look at the situation… maybe they felt… I don’t know… I just have… I don’t understand it, is the simple answer.”

But the odd thing is he went on to provide an answer in the very minute following. Peston asked the Archbishop: “How important is truth in politics?”

And as part of his response, the Archbishop said (speaking exactly as he thought): “We need transparency and integrity and honesty. We need people who say what they think, but are wise in the way they say it and don’t stir up hatred. Yes, of course truth matters a great deal: it’s where there’s a lack of truth that people become suspicious. And I think one of the things with much of the voting we’ve seen in Europe over the last couple of years comes down to the fact that a lot of people don’t trust that they’re being told the truth. And if they don’t trust that they’re being told the truth, they’ll go for someone who provides often simplistic, easy answers to complex and difficult questions.”

So, when the Archbishop of Canterbury tells the world that he really, genuinely, does not understand the Christian ‘fundamentalist’ support for Donald Trump, he might first listen to himself, because he manifestly does know.

And then he might challenge the crass use of ‘fundamentalist’ when applied to Christians – which quite a few sections of the media (and Twittersphere) have interpreted as ‘Evangelical’ – not least because quite a few Roman Catholics also seem to have voted for Trump. And then there’s the perception (or reality) of a very slight sneer of theo-political superiority, which isn’t at all uncommon among the Bishops of the Church of England:

Brexit Trump nightmare

There are Brexit-supporting Christians, and Trump-supporting Christians. It isn’t for the leadership of the Church of England to pass partisan judgment on their spiritual discernment or political motives, not least because it’s such an appallingly divisive witness.

  • Why did Christians support Trump? Three very obvious reasons spring to mind:
    1) Religious freedom
    2) Abortion
    3) Supreme Court

    Plus indications of a harder line on immigration and a clearer perspective on the ambitions of Islam.

    Welby really is completely lost in the leftist echo chamber if he doesn’t realise that these are massive issues currently in America and in the world for Christians and conservatives.

  • David

    Americans of all types, not just Christians, support Trump for many reasons. But foremost must be Trump’s plain speaking presentation. He speaks the language of the ordinary citizen. After that he appeals because he is prepared to stand up for America and oppose the globalists agenda. Anyone who promises to bring home the industrial jobs that have been lost, is going to become popular isn’t he ?

    Trump speaks proudly about western civilisation and all the things we associate with that. This includes the “big” things like democracy, Christianity and respect for the individual, plus the “little” things like hard work and thrift. Whilst I think that Trump has questionable personality traits, overall he comes over as a breath of fresh air after the lying, scheming politicians that we suffered these last few decades, on both sides of the Atlantic.

    Above all Trump attracts trust because he is not an establishment politician but a political outsider. This makes enormous sense as it is the rise of the professional politician, with little to no real world experience that at the root of so many of our problems.

    • Manfarang

      Trump has record low ratings.,

      • Anton

        How many upticks do you get here?

      • John

        Must be fake news…

        • Manfarang

          I have yet to meet an American who likes him.

  • Anton

    This says nothing about Trump but much about Welby.

  • IanCad

    I really, genuinely do not understand why I always try to be so understanding and respectful to the AoC Justin Welby. Always attempting to give him the benefit of the doubt, deferring to his undoubted learning, Subordinating and questioning my own opinions to align more closely with his far more sober and erudite calmness.
    N0 More!!! The sheer gall of the man who would – by implication – give support to Hillary Clinton whilst the USA is still reconciling itself to the results of an election which was, perhaps, the most divisive in their short history.
    If I were Donald Trump I would tell the UK to stick any prospect of a State visit right up your you know where. Further, I would proclaim that now an American is to marry into the Royal Family there is some prospect that good American blood may halt the degeneration and pansification of the house of Windsor.
    God Bless America!!!

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      I don’t honestly think Prince Harry is a pansy…no, really, I don’t

      • IanCad

        Maybe not but he doesn’t appear too bright. O for the days when kings earned their spurs on the field of battle.

        • Dominic Stockford

          I think he is a tad brighter than his father, mind….

        • Anton

          Harry felt the same. He was deeply fed up when kept from the front line in Afghanistan because he was thought to be a bullet magnet.

          • IanCad

            Then he should be the next monarch. The house of Harry vs the House of Bill.

          • Dr. Professional

            Harry could be King of Canada. They could use some testosterone.

          • Anton

            Cry God for Harry, England and St George!

        • Little Black Censored

          Were they any the brighter for that?
          Suggesting a lack of brightness on the part of the Royal Family is a rather Guardiany thing to do. Think of the number of dim-witted MPs – yet they are mostly capable of doing what is required of them and should not be despised.

          • IanCad

            I suppose it could be well argued that the smart ones avoid battle and have their minions do their fighting for them. I think that is the route I would take as I’m irredeemably LMF; have a particular aversion to pain, and the sight of blood gives me the willies.

    • Anton

      Is there any precedent for a senior Royal marrying a divorced American woman?

      • IanCad

        Well – Yes! But, they had no issue.

      • James Bolivar DiGriz

        Not really an issue as Harry will not succeed to the throne. He is fifth in line, sixth when Kate gives birth.

    • Busy Mum

      I would hesitate to describe Markle as ‘good American blood’. Her politics suggest that her entry into the Royal family will actually hasten the degeneration, rather than slow it down.

      • IanCad

        No, no, no!! You are forgetting the spirit of independence and boldness most Americans have in greater abundance than us.

        • Busy Mum

          I do not see anything in Markle to suggest she has any more independence or boldness than that of a parrot or a leech.

          • IanCad

            But American parrots and leeches are more independent minded than the British variety.

          • Busy Mum

            What British variety would that be?

          • IanCad

            The leeches who infest our institutions of higher learning and the idiotic students who parrot their every utterance.

          • Busy Mum

            Oh, they may well self-identify as British but…..

          • Little Black Censored

            That is a kind of snobbery and quite nasty.

          • Busy Mum

            How so? You know I am not nasty – I stood up for you on TCW the other day.

          • Busy Mum

            p.s. I would have thought you could see the hypocrisy of a woman who talks about ’embracing who I am’ and ’empowering women’ and ‘gender equality’ marrying – actually marrying – into the family which epitomises everything she purports to be against.

          • bluedog

            But love conquers all.

    • @ IanCad—good American blood

      Please, the United States is a European creation. Grand Duchess Meghan is half black and half Jewish.

      • IanCad

        I’m sure she has many adventurers in her ancestry and I hope the best of them are in her genes.

    • David

      Well said Ian, well said.
      But I wouldn’t overly emphasise his learning. His understanding of theology is less than impressive I’d say. His talents are mainly managerial and consensus building, but the latter doesn’t work very well on matters of faith.

      • vsscoles

        His understanding of theology is limited to a smattering of training for the ministry.

  • Inspector General

    Time for epitaph suggestions, what!

    “Had little to no time for the millions of souls who didn’t see politics his way, but did his utmost for feminism and maintained a professional interest in the whims of buggery”

  • Ray Sunshine

    A lot of people who didn’t like Trump voted for him all the same because they thought the alternative would be even worse. Is there anything unChristian in making that choice? I don’t think so. But it would probably be unreasonable to expect Welby to give an answer of that kind on camera.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Why? I doubt he has even considered it.

      • Ray Sunshine

        Welby could see how a nuanced answer like that would be reported in the media: “Archbishop says it is right for Christians to hate Hillary and vote for racist fascist pu**y-grabber”

        • dannybhoy

          So he shouldn’t have done the interview..

        • Sir John Oldcastle

          There are much better answers a Christian can give than his partisan one. Pointing out, for instance, that all people are sinners and thus there is no perfect candidate would be the way I’d have expected him to go.

          • Ray Sunshine

            That’s certainly a good answer,no doubt about it. But is it really the answer you would have expected Archbishop Welby to give? To expect is not the same as to hope!

          • Martin

            I wouldn’t have expected him to go in that direction, he simply doesn’t have the theological understanding to say that.

          • Sir John Oldcastle

            Maybe I overestimate him.

  • magnolia

    Why did Americans support Trump?

    1. Hillary Clinton
    2. Bill Clinton. Remember the “lawyered truth.”? People have short memories but not that short when its your own nation.
    3. The Apprentice: felt the guy got things done. Americans like that.
    4. He was the Republican candidate.
    5. Other reasons.

    It’s not difficult. Lots of people have fairly simple reasons.

  • Father David

    I wonder if Trump will get an invitation to THE wedding at which Welby seems only too willing to officiate at, if asked! I believe that the bride to be has referred to her President as “misogynistic” – so perhaps that comment alone will exclude him and the First Lady from the guest list.

    • Dominic Stockford

      This wedding is not the same sort of state occasion as that of the heir to the throne. It will likely take place at Windsor, which will be filled by family and extended royal family. There is no expectation that he would be invited, except by those who will then use his non-existent ‘non-invitation’ as an excuse to further attack him.

      • Father David

        Well, Dominic, you seem to have a divergent view of THE wedding to that which is reported in this morning’s edition of The Times which clearly states:-
        “Wherever it is celebrated, it will be a star-studded guest list and very different from Ms. Markle’s first wedding in Jamaica, which she celebrated with a beach barbecue in Ohio Rios. The guests could include Barack and Michelle Obama – although President Trump, whom Ms. Markle has called misogynistic, may be snubbed.”
        I seem to recall that the heir to the throne’s second marriage took place at the Windsor Guildhall, followed by a low-key service of blessing at St. George’s Chapel.
        Who shall we believe Mr. Stockford or The Thunderer?

        • Sir John Oldcastle

          It is not a state occasion . Therefore foreign heads of state are not automatically invited. These are simple facts, whatever left wing ragtops might say.

          • Father David

            Well, even so, I do hope that the Trumps have the good grace to send the happy couple an electric toaster as a wedding present.

          • Busy Mum

            The difference between the reactions to what are almost identical circumstances in 1936 and 2017 are precisely why left-wing ragtops are so excited….

          • Anton

            It’s a big difference that Harry isn’t king!

          • Busy Mum

            Yes, which is why I said ‘almost’ identical.

            But if he was….I still think the reaction would be vastly different to that in 1936.

          • bluedog

            In 1936 the electorate allegedly supported Edward. However, my late father used to sing, ‘Hark the herald angels sing, Mrs Simpson stole our King’. Something he probably learned in the RN during the war.

          • Busy Mum

            That was still being sung in the playground when I was at school in the 70’s!

            If that allegation (which I have heard before and am inclined to doubt) is true, what a good thing there wasn’t a referendum in 1936…

          • bluedog

            Indeed. Churchill would probably never have shouldered aside Halifax and other contenders. The Court might speak German…

          • Busy Mum

            Truly, ‘We had a Guardian…’

          • Anton

            The upper classes were far more in favour of letting the King marry Mrs Simpson than the working classes would have been, so a referendum would have led to the same result that Stanley Baldwin insisted on.

          • Busy Mum

            I hadn’t thought of it like that! I can’t imagine the idea of a referendum entering their heads anyway – it’s unnecessary if Parliament does the right thing.
            Of course, the upper classes were often more loose with their morals than were the working classes – they could afford to get away with it.

          • Little Black Censored

            That word “almost” is being made to work awfully hard in your comment.

          • Busy Mum

            How so? Without it, my comment is untrue; to pretend that there are no similarities is madness.

        • Busy Mum

          Why on earth would you believe what you read in The Times?

          • Father David

            ….because, dear lady, I’m not daft enough to buy the Daily Mail!
            I am anxious about you being so busy – I do hope that you are watching “Motherland” on BBC2 to garner some useful tips on how to be less busy when dealing with the issue?

          • Busy Mum

            I’m not daft enough to buy any newspaper…. or pay for a TV licence.

          • Father David

            Not only busy but sensible.

          • Busy Mum

            The two traits tend to go hand in hand….

        • James Bolivar DiGriz

          “Who shall we believe Mr. Stockford or The Thunderer?”

          I would go for the former as the opinion is based on facts.

          St George’s Chapel, Windsor Castle seats 800, Westminster Abbey has held over 8,000 and the permanent capacity is 2,000.

          So Dominic is right to say that heads of state will not be invited ex officio. If the Obamas are invited it will be as friends of the bride.

          • Father David

            I won’t comment further until I read what The Jupiter has to say on the matter, other than to say that Trumpy Bear and Malaria won’t be in attendance as the protesters would by far outnumber the wedding guests and the Thames Valley Police would not be able to cope with those objecting to The Donald’s presence on this sceptred isle.

    • Dreadnaught

      THE Wedding … Groan. Six months of turn your brain to custard drivel coming with the added bonus of all of ‘celebritydom’ jockeying for some unwarranted free publicity and exclusive dirt on the Duchess of Dross. “Beam me up Mr Scott”.

      • James Bolivar DiGriz

        Oops, comment put in wrong place!

    • bluedog

      Important question, FD. As Trump has been snubbed by withdrawal of a mooted State Visit, it would be remarkably inconsistent if he were to be invited to a state occasion such as The Wedding. Looks like a job for Jared and Ivanka. Anyway, Trump could not be trusted to keep to his allotted place in the photographs, he’d barge his way to the front and stand next to Meghan.

      • Father David

        Yes, best keep The Donald away from these shores as the protests will be tremendous and we don’t want his enormous Ego overshadowing the nuptials

        • Martin

          I’d say we’d want the ‘nuptials’ to be definitely overshadowed. And perhaps his ego isn’t as big as some.

          • Father David

            Well we all need something to take our minds off the national disaster which is Brexit – what better distraction than a royal wedding? Besides the 24 page colour supplement (free with every edition of the January edition of the Parish Magazine) “When Harry met Meghan” has already been put to bed, as we say in the print trade.

          • Martin

            David

            What national disaster?

          • Father David

            The impending one to hit us in March 2019.

          • Martin

            David

            Are you pretending to be a prophet as well as a ‘Father’?

      • James Bolivar DiGriz

        The wedding of the 5th/6th in line to the throne is not a state occasion.

  • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

    Oh dear…is there some theological factory somewhere than churns out the same old same old archbishops and bishops? If the CofE is leaking support, one only has to evaluate the drips…

    • Father David

      I do hope that you don’t include your own dear husband – the Lord Bishop of Barchester among “the drips”?

  • ‘much of the voting we’ve seen in Europe over the last couple of years comes down to the fact that a lot of people don’t trust that they’re being told the truth’

    Indeed. When Welby, for example, declares that diversity is ‘a gift, not a threat’, the people know from bitter experience that they are being told a shocking lie, and ‘a lot of people’ will conclude that a church which lies to them can have no place in their lives. Almost inevitably, their disenchantment then spreads to Christianity itself, which they are rejecting in record numbers. If the Church of England is dying, it has only itself to blame. It could, and should, have been honest with the people.

  • Ray Sunshine

    A top churchman avoids giving a straight answer out of concern that the skubalon might hit the machinery. Welby isn’t the only one. They do it all the time:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42152146

  • Dreadnaught

    Could it just be that there is no one on the world stage prepared to point out the elephant on our foot?
    Its not just Welby, but seemingly every other Church leader in the world, could all point to some close to home atrocity perpetrated on Christians and others.
    Muslims everywhere destroyed the physical evidence of other faiths. Some managed to survive simply because they were too difficult to destroy. The Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan avoided destruction until a few years ago, when Muslims finally made use of powerful modern explosives, and blew them up, as Muslims had destroyed so many statues, temples, temple complexes, all over the subcontinent. Another example of Islam’s “pivotal, constructive, and welcomed role”?
    Terrorism does not necessarily require mass murder: it means creating an atmosphere of terror in a population, and that has indeed been achieved by Islamists the world over. Look just at the changes in our daily lives, especially in Europe, the security checks everywhere, the police and army patrols, the cancellation of everything from concerts to Christmas markets, the traffic-halting bollards — all due to fear of Muslim terrorists.

  • Dominic Stockford

    He clearly hasn’t considered the alternative – a woman who supported (among many other unpleasant things) the introduction of so-called ‘post-partum abortion’. It makes it somewhat easier to understand why the Christian would vote for a man who has a committed Christian as his vice-president.

  • Dolphinfish

    Not understanding why others act outwith the prescribed patterns is a common reaction amongst people who assume all the great questions of history have been answered. It’s why the English can’t understand Scots nationalism and why protestants can’t understand why Catholics pray for indulgences.

    • Dominic Stockford

      55% of the Scots share the English ‘lack of understanding’ for their own nationalism, at the last, most accurate, count.

      • Dolphinfish

        55% disagree, but they perfectly understand.

    • carl jacobs

      Scottish Nationalism is “a great question of History”?

      • CliveM

        Scots are very parochial.

        • Dolphinfish

          This from an Englishman?

          • CliveM

            Nope.

          • Dolphinfish

            What, then?

        • Little Black Censored

          They say “outwith”.

          • Anton

            And “anent”.

    • bluedog

      ‘It’s why the English can’t understand Scots nationalism…’ Ever wondered why there are so many Scots who don’t understand Scots nationalism? That should be your focus, rather than the ritual anti-British, anti-English diatribes in which you indulge yourself.

    • Martin

      Since the Scots and other unfriendly powers have had their hands on our rotten estates for so long we can’t understand why they’d want to give them up.

  • CliveM

    Why should Christians have a problem voting for a man who boasts of how his celebrity allows him to get away with sexual assault, openly mocks a man’s disability, boasts he could have had sex with Princess Diana (for those wondering if he’s due to get an invitation, think on that) and serial liar, I couldn’t possibly think!

    And if the best that can be said is that Clinton would have been as bad, it’s a desperate choice.

  • carl jacobs

    Sure. Hillary Clinton. That’s why I voted for Trump. If I had done what Hillary did, I’d be in prison. She got a free pass because of who she was. There is no doubt about that. None. At all.

    And, yes, its true There is some of “How can anyone support ‘right wing’ candidates in this present age of thoroughly modern politics?” in Welby’s answer.

    But I’ve seen what he is talking about and I don’t get it either. I think it is rooted in the massive cultural rejection of Christianity that has occurred in the US in the last 15 years. Trump is to my mind a vehicle to receive the projected hopes and fears of a group of people who feel increasingly marginalized by those who occupy dominant positions in the culture. He gives the promise of access and validation to those who have been told for years that “they are the problem”. Go back to John McCains primary campaign in 2000. I saw it in candidates in 1996 as well. Trump is in some sense a Last Stand. He is the Last Hope standing between the Republic and full-on acceptance of secularized Europeanization. It’s a desperate act of wish projection and is doomed to fail. He is the slender reed of Egypt that will pierce the hand.

    But it’s also understandable. A drowning man will cling to anything that gives him hope of survival.

    • Anton

      At risk of discord… you say it is secularized Europeanization polluting North America, but the view from Britain at least (I can’t speak for the Continent) is that traditional British society carried on much as it long had until 1967, when hippiedom suddenly hit our society like a thunderbolt, and it came from across the Atlantic. The Beatles were simply a good-time band until Sgt Pepper, remember.

      • carl jacobs

        I’m not talking about 1967. I’m talking about 2017. The US has been moving relentlessly in the direction of Europe for 30 or 40 years. But only in the last 15 or 20 has it really gathered momentum. Christians are being turned into heretics in this culture. How do you stop that? The truth? You don’t. So how do you stop it anyways? You grab onto a charlatan like Trump.

        • CliveM

          Turning in the direction of europe? You led the way with the New Deal in the 1930’s. Still inspires european politicians today.

        • Anton

          In 1967 it seemed to me that Britain began a protracted process of turning the way of California. What I wouldn’t wish to do without more information is widen the assertion to take in, on the east side of the Atlantic, the rest of Europe, and on the west side of it places such as the midwest, deep south and Texas.

    • dannybhoy

      I see it that yes America has lost its way because it could no longer hold onto the values that defined it. The American Dream became ” The American Grab What You Can While You Can.”
      And to Hell with the Consequences..
      The same thing is happening in Europe. and it can’t be stopped.
      Once you lose faith in the beliefs that built your country then the only way is down.
      I do agree that Trump could be the last throw of the dice.

    • bluedog

      ‘Trump is in some sense a Last Stand’, and ‘Trump is to my mind a vehicle to receive the projected hopes and fears of a group of people who feel increasingly marginalized by those who occupy dominant positions in the culture.’

      Trump is, unexpectedly, a brilliant anthropologist. Unlike Welby who has never moved in anything but elite circles, Trump the elitist and reality TV star has learned enough about the US dispossessed, formerly the white working-class, to become their champion. Like the British working-class, the US working-class are super-patriots who love the idea of being in a winning team. Trump is the coach, fitness trainer and captain of the team.

  • len

    Welby: “I really, genuinely do not understand” Christian support for Trump

    And I don`t know why Christians should support the C of E until it gets its act together.
    Funny old world ain’t it.

  • Demon Teddy Bear

    The reason Christians voted for Trump is that Obama passed laws obliging nuns to provide contraception (and his lackeys are still sueing an order of nuns even now); passed laws which militant leftists used to drag small Christian bakers through the courts, and so on. Hillary promised more of the same. The only Christians who did NOT vote against Hillary were those who were deaf or blind. Who could expect Christians to vote for those hell-bent on persecuting them?

    • Anton

      Yes, that is why I would have voted Trump. How can Welby not get it?

      • vsscoles

        Because Welby supports the very things that Hillary wants.

  • dannybhoy

    Here’s an American take on that interview..
    https://eaglerising.com/48976/englands-top-archbishop-pretends-he-doesnt-understand-christian-trump-supporters/
    The well known American Christian Dr. James Dobson said prior to the US election..
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2016/october/james-dobson-why-i-am-voting-for-donald-trump.html

    I support Trump, not because I know he’s a Christian or ‘God’s man for the hour’ (although I think he may well be),
    but mainly because the alternative was unthinkable. I was a Brit supporter of the Tea Party movement, in rebellion because the political elite club and movers and shakers had everything sewn up between them, and basically nothing was going to change. The people would be kept pacified and the elite would enjoy the fruits of tyranny.
    It took an ignorant, ill mannered, narcissistic independent billionaire to shake the whole system up and raise the possibility of a return to commonsense and morality. The people loved that he actually believes in America, wants Americans to have work again and to prosper. And he stuck a finger up to the Establishment.
    Justin Welby is in touch with the Establishment and out of touch with Christianity and the common man..

    • CliveM

      Argh, Trump is part of the US elite!

      • dannybhoy

        In what sense mon ami?
        That he has money?

        • CliveM

          In what sense isn’t he? He has mixed with the ‘elite’ his whole adult life. He attends their functions, does business with them, shares their values (Trump and Bill Clinton have a lot in common), if he isn’t part of the elite, who is?

          • dannybhoy

            Youirrre argument is on shaaaaaaky grouind, McTavish..!

          • CliveM

            In what way?

          • dannybhoy

            If Trump was really a part of the elite, the elite would embrace him.
            As it is he is a very rich man interested in politics and with the means to do something about it. Does the fact that he wishes to change how the system operates make him an elitist?

          • CliveM

            Does he wish for change? I doubt it, but time will tell. I’ll forecast now that there will be no substantial changes to the system by the time of the next Presidential election. Which being the USA, campaigning will be due to start Jan 2018!

          • dannybhoy

            But there might be no change because the political elite doesn’t want change Clive.
            They will fight Trump all the way.

    • len

      The US establishment hate Trump because they see him as ‘a loose cannon’ and because he will not play’ the establishment game’ as did the Bush’s the Clinton’s and Obama.

      • dannybhoy

        S’what I’m saying Len. They all stick together because they don’t want their secrets exposed and they don’t want to lose the good life..

    • David

      Well said.

    • vsscoles

      Justin Welby IS the Establishment

    • dannybhoy

      Apologies for the abrupt ending of the James Dobson article. It was the whole thing when I first read it…

  • Richard B

    ‘DOH!’ – my reaction to his comment; or maybe that should have been Justin’s response rather than utter befuddlement! It wasn’t surprising in view of his inability under interrogation to refer to basic Biblical teaching on sexuality, or on childhood gender confusion.

    I’m not standing in judgement of either brother in Christ – one a British AofC, the other an American ‘sanctification-work in progress’ but appointed by God for ‘such a time of this’. In keeping an eye on the spiritual ‘Bridge o’er Pond’ I’m simply offering an explanation of Justin Welby’s lack of knowledge and
    understanding.:

    As oft-said herein, very few in the Anglican hierarchy know the mind of our Father or they’d appreciate prophecy; not only what the Bible foretells about today but also as brought by modern-day prophets. Hence, the cluelessness about Brexit and Trump! Moreover, in allowing the CofE’s move into apostasy, it’s no wonder Justin cannot think like our American brethren do – especially in their adherence to basic Biblical belief, repudiation of Replacement Theology and their consequential, associated support for the state Israel.

    As one example, I cite the panic Reuter’s film crew experienced in Detroit on 4 Sept 2016 after Trump not only received a standing ovation at a black church and praise from its Afro-American bishop, but also was given and wore(!) a tallit (Hebrew prayer shawl), a Jewish Bible and offered his prayers – the crew were told to cut the feed!!! (Last section of https://wp.me/p1Y1yB-8DU refers)

    Trump’s personal appreciation of Israel and energetic emphasis upon returning the US to the role of ally unquestionably played a HUGE part in wide Christian support for this radical president.

    • Anton

      I suggest it played a huge part in God’s support for him!

      • Richard B

        I’d agree there Anton

      • Richard B

        PS He and supporters may come somewhat unstuck, however, depending on if they wish to continue previous administrations’ mistakes of encouraging division of the ‘holy land’.

  • Mark

    This is no surprise. He never says anything worthy of listening to and is a blatant question-dodger.

  • Anna

    5 reasons-
    1. Trump was endorsed by evangelical leaders like Franklin Graham.
    2. He had supposedly turned a new leaf.
    3. Americans supporting conservative values had no real alternatives.
    4. Trump was ‘anti-establishment’.
    5. Hilary Clinton.

    • Martin

      Anna

      I’d say the five were
      1. Hilary Clinton.
      2. Hilary Clinton.
      3. Hilary Clinton.
      4. Hilary Clinton.
      5. Hilary Clinton.

    • grutchyngfysch

      I’d be a lot more inclined to put stock in the endorsement of evangelical “leaders” if their endorsements consistently applied the same high expectations of morality that they (rightly) excoriate liberals for eroding. I’ve no problem with the argument that Hilary was by many measures worse – but I think that position is a far cry from the kinds of bollocks we’ve heard from men who should know better who want to set Trump up as some kind of Cyrus.

      I’ve said it before, and I remain convinced it’s true: there are many luminaries in the evangelical right who are selling the Gospel down the river in exchange for temporal (and very much temporary) power.

  • Anton

    Please see the preceding thread for news from Cressida that Jack is currently in hospital undergoing an operation.

    • IanCad

      Thanks Anton; I missed it – prayers for his full recovery.

      • dannybhoy

        I was just going to ask..
        Let’s pray for the man that he will be restored to full health..

    • not a machine

      Hope happy Jack makes a good and full recovery.

  • TIME to CTRL ALT & DEL

    the words “making shipwreck of the faith” come to mind when it comes to Justin. Such a promising start too!

  • Murti Bing

    OK, so Trump is mad, but Hillary is insane, so there’s a clear reason right there, and after all it was only a binary choice. And in the midst of it all, the poor old ABC seems a little bit confused. Well that’s good to know.

    Anyone got any info on how the Pope is doing with his trolley? I mean, is he on it, or off it? I think we should be told.

    • Simon Platt

      Still off, I’m afraid.

      • Murti Bing

        I thought as much.

  • CliveM

    Apologies but on the BBC “Ms Markle a Protestant, will be baptised and confirmed before the wedding.

    I believed she was a Catholic?

    • ardenjm

      She went to Catholic schools.
      Not sure she was baptised Catholic however.
      In which case – from a Catholic understanding – her first marriage is still valid. Sorry Harry.
      If she had been a baptised Catholic and then married outside of the Church then her marriage would NOT have been a marriage in the first place, with the subsequent divorce being a merely civil business with NO obstacle to her marrying as a Catholic and ‘getting it right’ second time round.
      BUT if she isn’t a baptised Catholic then her non-religious marriage is a valid one in the eyes of the Church and she remains married inspite of her divorce.

      • CliveM

        Either way, from a legal pov she’s a divorcee.

        This would suggest she has never been baptised.

        • dannybhoy

          Heard on the news she is to be baptised and accepted into the Church before the wedding..

          • CliveM

            Read my first post, two up!!

          • dannybhoy

            Shan’t!

    • dannybhoy

      I can see a Hollywood blockbuster in the making..
      Who will share in the royalties I wonder…

      • CliveM

        I’m curious to know how rigorous the confirmation classes will be.

        • dannybhoy

          I’ve been following an American Jewish blog (need the stimulation), and lifted this piece on Meghan -or is it Rachel? for your delight and delectation…
          https://forward.com/schmooze/372756/is-meghan-markle-going-to-be-prince-harrys-jewish-princess/

          • CliveM

            She’s not Jewish!

          • dannybhoy

            But the article says…
            It must be true
            must be! must beeeeeeeee…
            Danny throws a tantrum and wraps himself in table cloth.

          • CliveM

            Sorry but I cannot lie.

          • Anton

            What you mean is that you cannot say something you believe to be untrue. That says a great deal for you, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it *is* untrue!

          • dannybhoy

            Thank you George..

        • Martin

          Are confirmation classes ever rigorous, and would CoE bishops pass them if they were?

        • Pubcrawler

          As the outcome looks to be a ‘done deal’ anyway, and with indecent haste, I don’t suppose it will too thorough. But if the task is entrusted to the clergy of St George’s, Windsor (two of whom I have known personally), then it is likely to be fairly sound, at least.

          • CliveM

            That’s good to know.

    • She’s a divorced Catholic and her first husband is still alive. Best they get married in a registry office or somewhere other than a Church.

      • CliveM

        Except she was never baptised as a Catholic.

        • I hear Windsor Castle is the wedding venue which is appropriate I think.

          • CliveM

            Yes, Georges Chapel in Windsor Castle.

    • dannybhoy

      Read the links..
      https://www.jta.org/2017/05/24/life-religion/is-meghan-markle-jewish-the-internet-is-confused
      Her first husband Trevor Engelton is Jewish, they were married two years. According to the articles her father has Jewish blood.

      • Anton

        Elsewhere on the internet it is explicitly denied that his father has Jewish blood. The internet is ‘ringing’ and short of dong the research ourselves we have to wait for the truth to emerge.

        • CliveM

          True. However even if her father does have a sprinkling of Jewish blood, I am reliably informed that Judaism is only passed down the female line.

          • CliveM

            For clarification ‘reliably ‘ was also tongue in cheek!!!!

          • dannybhoy

            It is passed down through the mother. As someone once explained to me the reason being that you might not know who your father was, but you always know your mother..
            In any case it doesn’t matter whether she’s Jewish or not (although her first husband definitely is); my concern is that they’re going to be happy together. So in that sense backgrounds are interesting.

          • Anton

            That’s a tradition which emerged for the unhappiest of reasons: frequent rape of Jewish women.

          • CliveM

            Thanks, I didn’t know that.

    • Simon Platt

      She’s evidently neither Catholic nor Protestant, but a heathen.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Being an old Etonian does not automatically mean that one is incapable of having the common touch but, rightly or wrongly, Welby, like his predecessor, does give the impression of feeling most comfortable in the company of comfortably off Guardian readers.

    • Anton

      It’s worse than that. He gives the impression that Christ would feel most comfortable in the company of comfortably off Guardian readers.

      • Pubcrawler

        It is not the healthy who need a doctor.

        Some (in fact probably most) of my best friends are Guardian readers, many of them comfortably off. I try to be patient with them and their apparently invincible ignorance.

        (I will reply to your mails when I’ve caught up after a blissful offline hiatus.)

        • CliveM

          It’s like when I lived in Scotland, if I’d stick to non guardian readers, I wouldn’t have got out very often!

      • Simon Platt

        Reminds me of a letter I read in the Guardian, when I still occasionally bought it, oh, twenty years or more ago. It went something like this “… I’m sure Guardian readers will pray, if one could imagine Guardian readers praying …”

  • jsampson45

    Perhaps one might start by asking if anyone – Catholic, Protestant, atheist – actually thinks Trump or Brexit are “the answer”, whatever that means. There are choices – Clinton or Trump, stay or leave, hanged or shot.

  • not a machine

    President Trumps popularity was made by previous politics that did not see changes were occurring that were tearing up a thing called common belief and truth. The USA voted for an administration to sort out the overbearing state and its massive debts and trade situation. Generally speaking the USA voter does not vote for more debt and poverty. The archbishop speaks of food banks, he doesn’t seem to grasp food banks were a distinct outcome in budgets from 2004 onwards, did he say anything about, where deficits lead. I rather fear he isn’t much of a thinker on green energy either!!!!!

    • Chefofsinners

      Hmm… what I can’t understand is why did so many people vote for Welby? What’s that? He’s the product of a self-perpetuating hierarchy? So, er, he’s in high office with great influence but has never been voted for by anyone? Awkward.

      • not a machine

        Synod is not exactly democracy.

  • dannybhoy

    Good article here young Clive, on the Clintons and their impending comeuppance..
    https://freedomoutpost.com/real-reason-democrats-turned-bill-clinton/
    Btw
    Did you watch Scotland thrash Australia last Saturday?
    What a fantastic game that was!

    • CliveM

      Wasn’t it just. We’re beginning to look useful. It will bra difficult 6 Nations for us however.

      • dannybhoy

        Wales couldn’t overcome New Zealand but they didn’t have all their best players available Mind you, the Kiwis might be awesome in execution but they’re actually pretty dull to watch.
        Scotland looked very much like Wales at their best and were a joy to watch.

        • CliveM

          We also had quite a lot out injured. But TBH, international teams pretty much always have first choices missing. Its international rugby today I’m afraid.

          • dannybhoy

            Laidlaw’s a brilliant captain and Gregor Townsend is doing a good job as manager.
            There.
            Enough with the compliments already.

          • CliveM

            Except Laidlaw is out injured. It’s Barclay who has been captaining!

          • dannybhoy

            Tsk tsk. Shoulda made it clear I was referring to your first sentence.. Barclay did really well didn’t he.

          • CliveM

            Yep. I think the Laidlaw era might be coming to a close.

      • Anton

        The big point is the the northern hemisphere is catching up with the southern.

        • CliveM

          True, although some of it is due to Southern Hemisphere slippage I think

  • Chefofsinners

    Things that Justin doesn’t understand #9476.
    How deliciously entertaining to watch the bewilderment of establishment elites as they fall headlong into the cesspit dug by their own reasoning. By setting up democracy in place of morality, they have made a pact with the Devil. Now there’s hell to pay. And they have no answer, for where does moral authority come from now?

    • carl jacobs

      where does moral authority come from now

      Chef, Chef, Chef

      The problem isn’t the lack of moral authority. The Establishment elites are themselves the moral authority. Just ask them … when they think no one is listening. They’ll tell you. The problem is that usurpers have come and taken their rightful place. We just have to wait for the universe to right itself and restore the natural moral order.

      Democracy means “They win”. Facism means “They lose”. A progressive view of history means the democracy must inevitably win. It’s like water must flow down hill. So don’t worry. The engine of progress churns forward with relentless momentum. This is a temporary perturbation. Nothing to be concerned about.

      In the meantime, you need to learn to do what you are told.

      • Chefofsinners

        Hmm. If Welby could only recognise it, this is the moment to reassert God-given moral absolutes. Jeremiah 2:13 “For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.”

  • Martin Sewell

    The best explanation I heard was this. “Trump supporters took him seriously but not literally , his opponents took him literally but not seriously”.

  • Palmoni

    The ABofC World view comes via the BBC,C4,Guardian etc. He as no idea of the true nature of Globalism or the power behind it. Trump for all his faults {a considerable number} is not a Globalist to the same extent as Clinton/Cameron/Obama.Did not Satan show the Lord all the Kingdoms of the World and the glory of them and sayeth all will be thine if you fall down and worship me? The end game for Globalism is the destruction of Christianity, the ABC should no that.

  • Aisla Sinclair

    Wobbly Welby could do a lot worse than look at Acts 10, where Peter is told to eat things he previously felt unable to because of the Jewish Law that he still thought was necessary. It was a new era.
    Not as if Welby would know this message-the Book is closed, he learns nothing and stays depressed and useless as a leader.
    Jesus loved the “Deplorables”.Welby and his ilk don`t-or can`t. When Trump knows the Bible more than our current Pope, we`re in a new era again.

  • Chefofsinners

    Prince Harry to the rescue. The reason people voted for Trump is that the stars were aligned. Moving in the fundamentalists. Venus in transit, or possibly the back seat of a Ford pickup, but Trump denies that.

    • Anton

      Chef, if you go back a couple of threads I’ve remembered the argument *for* OSAS that caused me not to rest on the anti-OSAS verses. I’ve written it there. So I’m confused. I look for resolution, or at least someone who is confused at a higher level…

      • dannybhoy

        I added something to that thread Anton..

    • bluedog
  • People and that includes Christians voted for Trump because he gave them hope and vision. His tireless campaigning, the help of Mr Farage, the “Make America Great Again” hit the spot for many in all those rustbelt towns and cities. Trump spoke to the little people and mobilised them. Just like this time of year when the birth of Christ gave and still does give hope to so many, Trump heralded the beginning of a new era.

    • Manfarang

      Not much hope to the Hispanics and African Americans. Happy holidays.

      • I believe he wants controlled immigration and to properly define and secure the borders with his wall. The Hispanics need to stay and make something of their own countries. The African Americans were included in his ‘make America great again’ plans. Ditto.

        • Manfarang

          My bi-lingual American friend is staying in Texas where he is from.

      • Anton

        Trump simply doesn’t like illegal immigration or Islam, which seems reasonable; I don’t like law-breaking or religions which advocate forcible conversion where voluntary means have failed. I am not aware that Trump discriminates among US citizens because of the colour of their skin.

  • Johnnydub

    Why is the CoE so utterly infested with cultural Marxism. Its not remotely christian.

    Oh sure it dresses up faux concern about minorities etc but all it is geared up to deliver is rhe deconstruction of the family, Church and ultimately nation.

  • Lucius

    Mr. Trump won because the Democratic Party fielded the worst candidate (Mrs. Clinton) in the memory of modern party politics. Mr. Trump won states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin with fewer total votes than that of Mr. Romney (2012 Republican candidate), who lost the same states only 4 years prior against Mr. Obama. In other words, the election was more about no one turning out to vote for Mrs. Clinton then some landslide endorsement of Mr. Trump.

    I would further submit that the Democratic Party’s hard lurch toward identity politics and away from a working class focus may ultimately be its undoing, that is, if identity politics does not undo America first.

    • Malcolm Smith

      “Identity politics”
      The left follows the philosophy of “divide and rule”. Instead of aiming for social cohesion, and emphasizing a common interest, it believes in dividing us into tribes, then telling the minorities that they alone can help them. Bringing in more minorities by migration is also part of the plan. However, it depends on the majority not waking up to the program, and joining forces.

    • Simon Platt

      Today’s (yesterday’s) reaction from the politicians and journalists we seem to need to tell us what to think crossed well over the insanity border.

  • Malcolm Smith

    I’m an Australian, but I would have voted for Trump if I were an American, because of two reasons: the Supreme Court and immigration.
    http://malcolmsmiscellany.blogspot.com.au/2016/11/why-i-would-have-voted-for-trump-if-i.html

    • dannybhoy

      Another repentant colonial returns to the warm and forgiving arms of Mother England..
      Welcome home my son!
      (Seems to be a growing trend this. I’ve met or talked to many folk born abroad who have somehow felt the need to return to the ‘old country’.)
      Best get you some clean clothes and mug of cocoa. Of course you’ll have to re-learn English..

      • Malcolm Smith

        What do you mean “repentant colonial”? I didn’t say I was an American, only that I would have voted for Trump had I been one. As an Australian born and bred, who still lives there, I’m British by definition. Perhaps you’ve forgotten that we never left the Commonwealth, and voted against a republic.

        • dannybhoy

          Sorry,
          I got that you’re an Australian; my comment was meant to come across as light hearted, jovial and tongue in cheek.
          I failed.
          I apologise for annoying you.

        • Terry Mushroom

          In British eyes you are treated as an alien. Sad.

          Writes a Sydneysider living in U.K.

          • dannybhoy

            Did you extrapolate that from my comment or your own experience?

          • Terry Mushroom

            My own.

            I’m a sixth generation Australian. And I have a great regard for Britain. It’s my second home, using “home” with the depth of meaning that word implies. But I’m very saddened how ties of blood, history and comradeship in arms have been thrown away by the UK.

            There’s a cemetery near me with a section for ANZACs. They are still remembered every 25 April, ANZAC day.

            Would their descendants come to defend the EU? I wonder.

            (Edited for grammar)

          • dannybhoy

            I wholeheartedly agree with your comment.

  • Ray Spring

    I am a Refugee from Refugees. Birmingham, England, my home town had very, very, few ‘Immigrants’. in the 1950s. Today they have taken over the whole city. I moved out years ago, 1968, when Enoch made his ‘rivers of blood’ speech. Sensible, compassionate, friendly Christians vote for Trump, and Brexit, plus Pauline Hansen in Oz simply because as Christians they face issues as they are. England has been wrecked by uncontrolled immigration. Thank God I managed to move overseas with my family. What about those English people who could not? They now live in a Hell-Hole and are called ‘Racist’ if they complain.

    • dannybhoy

      You can never blame people for seeking a better life elsewhere. That this country has gone from a historically native white British nation to a multicultural one in such a short time is not the fault of immigrants but of failed immigration policies from successive governments.

      • Ray Spring

        I have lived in the Third World. If I was there now, no social welfare during your working life, no pension in your old age, no free health care provision, no free schooling for kids, I would move to England immediately. Asian people in particular have a long view of family life. They will wash dishes if their kids can get to University. The wonder is why the whole of Asia and Africa have not moved to England. It would be ‘Racist’ to stop them.

        • dannybhoy

          No it wouldn’t have been racist to stop/reduce immigration, it would have been eminently sensible. But as practicing Christians we can’t hate or mistreat people who come here as immigrants. We may have grave reservations about where it will end, but in the meantime we continue to serve the Lord in word and deed.

          • Ray Spring

            I have responsibilities towards my children, and grandchildren, even my great-grandchildren. I cannot wash my hands of a terrible problem. I have to take positive action. In my case, having been warned by Enoch Powell, and having accepted his warning, I left England permanently with my family. Those who remain, who could not flee, have a responsibility to solve the problem by very unpalatable actions maybe. Their Family responsibilities being the primary action driver. The Bosnian situation is very close to happening in UK.

        • Manfarang

          In East Asia the prospects for young people are a lot better than for many young people in Britain.

          • Ray Spring

            Particularly badly affected are white young kids. They are usually excluded from inclusion provisions. Although a relative of mine, having failed most exams she took,was awarded a University place due to her poor postal code.

      • Sherry

        We are NOT multi-cultural, how can we be. This is England.

        • dannybhoy

          Officially we are Sherry. We were a monocultural homogenous nation, and now we’re not.
          Personally I would say we are two nations, the old British culture can be seen in the more remote or rural areas, and the multicultural nation lives in the big cities and conurbations.
          Inevitably the native peoples will become the minority and the nature of the United Kingdom in a very short space of time will have changed for ever.
          We will go quietly into the night…

  • michaelkx

    “amazing support” which Donald Trump has from Christians in America. “Do you understand why fundamentalist Christians in America are so supportive of Donald Trump?” because he would put a stop to baby’s being murdered in the 9th month of pregnancy as Mrs C would have ok’ed

    “How important is truth in politics” our lot would not know the meaning of the word. Truth that is or honesty.

  • dannybhoy

    Pedantry strikes again Clive. My wife tells me that I can be very pedantic, and she’s right. Fortunately my sparkling personality and sense of humour make up for it.
    She says..

    • CliveM

      Strange my wife says the same.

      Except for the sparkling personality and sense of humour part.

      • dannybhoy

        Maybe it’s one of those feminine skills women use to keep their puppe- husbands where they want them?
        It’s sad that you haven’t been blessed with the same gifts as me Clive.
        Never mind,
        There’s always chocolate..

        • CliveM

          Or alcohol………

      • Cressida de Nova

        She is wise not to tell you that, otherwise you will turn into dannyboy and then her linen press will be empty. He uses the tablecloths as togas when he is doing his Roman emperor impersonations:)

  • “I really, genuinely do not understand” Christian support for Welby.

  • Anton

    You shouldn’t take mine so seriously either!

    • CliveM

      Fair enough!

  • Cressida de Nova

    Except for the the table cloth bit:)

    • CliveM

      Well yes that goes without saying.

  • Manfarang
  • Don Fallon

    The leader of the Anglican Church, Justin Welby does not understand true Christians – period! Or he would not be staying that is OK for boys to dress as girls and visa versa, but would be upholding the Bible teaching. Moses met with God face to face remember. Deuteronomy 22v5 A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

    • Anton

      He should remember that teachers are judged to a higher standard (James 3:1).

  • Chris Bell

    Nah, its obvious. Adam should never have looked at Eve and vice versa. If only Adam had looked for a Luke and Eve had looked for a Jane then the original sin would never been committed. No humanity, no babies, no society and no history. Clearly the idea of man and woman in tryst is a sad mistake!! We have been wrong since the beginning of time. But now, luckily, the CoE is putting it right. Should we not celebrate such potent wisdom which scorches the delusion that male and female were made for each other and urges that indeed man must seek man and woman clutch at woman??? I am much impressed.

  • dannybhoy

    Rather off topic but Anglican related..
    As some of you know we live in Norfolk, so rather out of the metro mainstream. Recently the work of HeartEdge has been brought to my attention, and I heard about Sam Wells and St. Martin in the Fields. So I looked up the man, his ministry and his church, and read some articles he has written.
    I think his name has been mentioned on previous posts? I like a lot of what he writes but reconciling it with traditional evangelical thought is another matter. There are aspects which I would regard as Universalistic and salvation through Christ Jesus does not seem to be a central tenet in his thinking.
    I’d appreciate some feedback or pointers to other sources.

  • billinghamboy

    What a let down Welby has become.

  • James M

    I support the POTUS, while disliking much that I’ve heard about the man who is POTUS, because he has some of the right ideas about Islam, which is a grave danger to Christians, Christianity, and the West. Certainly there are others, but Islam is one as well.

    Catholic culture separates the man from the office, and does not condemn an office as bad because the men holding it are bad. Protestant culture by contrast is apt to condemn an office as bad if its holders are bad. The reproach to which Catholicism is liable, justly or not, is that it cares little for personal holiness, and too much for externals and order; the reproach to which Protestantism is liable, justly or not, is that it cares little for corporate continuity and order, and too much for personal individuality and opinion. Both are tempted to Fascism (with its false eschatology) and unbelief, but for different reasons. Both are tempted to locate the Kingdom of God in space and time, as per St Matthew 4/St Luke 4, and to forget it is fundamentally an eschatological mystery hidden in God.

    Sorry. Just thought that might be relevant.

  • DP111

    Pres Trump maybe flawed, even deeply so, but his instincts and his heart are in the right place. That is why people support him. Christians in America, who see their president far more regularly then we do here in the UK, are pleased with what they see.

    Perhaps ABC Welby believes that American Christians are not the right sort.