Justin sighs1
Foreign Affairs

Welby: "Europe as a whole must rise up and seek to do what is right"

 

“What is your response to this, then?” barks BBC journalist Lyse Doucet, in the wake of hundreds of migrants drowning in the Mediterranean, with dozens of rescue boats now combing the waters in search of survivors. “This is a huge new crisis,” she insists. “The numbers – thousands of people just getting on boats saying, ‘You can shut your borders but we’re coming anyway. This is how desperate we are’.” And then she gouges into the Archbishop’s soul: “What should be the response of Europe to this?”

Justin Welby sighs deeply. Very deeply. It’s the sort of exhalation which groans infinitely over the weight of its own breeze. It’s a sigh of lamentation, of sorrow, of grief. After what feels like an aeon of contemplation, the Archbishop says: “Europe cannot be uncaring. Europe must exercise love and generosity..” And just before he can expand on his theological ethic of agápē, Ms Doucet stabs another stiletto: “Europe must take people in? This is what the EU foreign policy chief is saying, that all European countries must share the burden and respect human rights and dignity.”

The Archbishop doesn’t demur for a nanosecond. “I think that is absolutely correct. All European countries – no one country can do it by itself. We can’t say this is one country’s responsibility – the one nearest. That’s not right. And this is nothing (unintelligible – ‘to do with’?) the European Union – I’m talking about countries right across the whole region. We need to share the burden. Of course we have to be aware of the impact of immigration on our own communities. But when people are drowning in the Mediterranean, the need, the misery that has driven them out of their own countries, is so extreme, so appalling, that Europe as a whole must rise up and seek to do what is right. It will be demanding, and that’s why the burden must be spread across the continent, and not taken by just one country or one area.”

It is interesting how Katie Hopkins’ dehumanisation of refugees has caused more ire than their actual drowning. “Make no mistake, these migrants are like cockroaches,” she sneers. “They might look a bit ‘Bob Geldof’s Ethiopia circa 1984’, but they are built to survive a nuclear bomb. They are survivors.” Cue much hand-wringing, celebrity disgust, allusions to Nazi Germany and a petition to get her fired. But as Brendan O’Neill observes: “It’s official: we’re now more offended by words than by death. Behold the otherworldliness, even inhumanity, of political correctness, which bristles more at the terms used to describe a horrific event than it does at the event itself.”

The Archbishop of Canterbury sweeps all this chunder aside, and demands action – not, it must be observed, from the European Union, which you’d think might have been founded for such a cross-border mission – but from the continent of Europe as a whole, which is composed of independent nation states, each with a vestigial heritage of Christendom. Their vocation and ours is to love and show generosity to those fleeing misery “so extreme, so appalling” that they pay traffickers thousands of dollars to float them across the sea to a continent flowing with milk and benefits, but end up drowning by the thousand while the soulless traffickers suck their sweet tea and munch indifferently on desert bread and dates.

When Justin Welby calls on Europe to love, he preaches the distinctive ethic of the New Testament. While the nations of Islam are tearing each other apart; while Muslims are murdering, torturing, burning, beheading or hurling Christians into the sea to drown, the nations of Christendom must manifest a ‘more excellent way‘ (1Cor 12:31ff): the new commandment of Jesus (Jn 13:34f); the revelation of the character of the one true God (1Jn 4:7f).

Love, generosity and compassion are fundamental to the moral life, and Christians are commanded to take up their cross and follow the sacrificial way in offering food, shelter and hospitality to all those in need. “It will be demanding,” ++Justin observes. Well, surrounded by the blood of those saints who ‘loved not their lives unto the death‘ (Rev 12:11), a little community generosity and individual charity is a small price to pay.

  • sarky

    Don’t think opening up Europe is the answer. We need to finish off IS once and for all, so these people don’t feel the need to flee and can live peacefully in their own lands.

    • The Explorer

      Admirable principle. Will sorting IS do it? Libya? The Copts? That’s not IS. But it’s the same sort of issue as foreign aid. Ideally, improve the infrastructure of the recipient; so that the aid is not needed in the first palce.

  • Martin

    My understanding is that these people are paying, quite often with large sums of money, the traffickers who put them on overcrowded boats that are barely sea worthy. They aren’t the poorest of the poor, for they have money to pay for such a trip.

    The reason they pay these sums of money is that they imagine they will be allowed into Europe to work and to settle. If you meet that expectation, more will come, on more overcrowded, unsafe boats and more will drown.

    If they are returned to their homeland as soon as is practically possible they and others may try again but perhaps the message will get through that such a journey will not give them their hearts desire, perhaps fewer will try and fewer will drown.

    • Pubcrawler

      I am broadly in agreement with you. But in light of the parable of Dives and Lazarus (which happened to be the second lesson at evening prayer yesterday), I think there must be more to a Christian response than just to leave it at that.

      • Martin

        Pubcrawler

        The answer is to address their needs in their home, but what if they simply see Europe falsely as a sort of Shangri-La? how do you cure that problem?

  • Linus

    “You can shut your borders but we’re coming anyway.”

    The interviewer got it right. That’s the reality of the situation. Be it Europe or the US or Australia or wherever, migrants don’t care about the rules other countries invent to keep them out. They want a slice of the pie and by God, or by Allah, or by whatever, they’re going to take it.

    You have to be realistic about immigration. Fences and border checks are just window dressing. If they want in, they’ll get in. No fortress can survive a siege indefinitely.

    Have you ever seen that weird 70s movie with Sean Connery and Charlotte Rampling called “Zardoz”? It’s a slightly hippy trippy exploration of the concepts of elitism, exclusion and what happens to societies that attempt to shut themselves off from the rest of the world to preserve what they consider to be their birth right. The outside world always succeeds in breaking in, although there may not be much left worth taking once they do…

    • The Explorer

      Haven’t seen ‘Zardoz’, but what about Jean Raspail’s ‘Le Camp des Saints’, which predicts exactly this sort of scenario? What was it about the 70’s that made people prophetic?

      • bluedog

        The acid, man.

      • Linus

        Well if you’re going to base your political opinion on works such as “Le camp des Saints”, don’t forget to add “Mein Kampf” to your reading list…

        • The Explorer

          Where does political opinion come into it? Raspail predicted an invasion of Europe by boats. Although not on the scale he suggested, or from the source he suggested, we are seeing an invasion of Europe by boats. That makes him prophetic.

          • dannybhoy

            The thing is that as Christians we have to be balanced in our approach to the needs of our fellow man.
            We have people on here saying we are a Christian country or we aren’t a Christian country, but the fact is we are now a secular humanistic society.
            Christianity is accepted as long as it is of the sanitised ‘pink and fluffy’ variety. So any kind of giving and serving is acceptable, but not the moral values and strictures that inspire that service: as Linus frequently proves here..

            I personally believe that the Bible teaches that we have to guard that which we have, and the system that made it possible. Yes we give, we share, but not mindlessly.
            As in the parable of the 10 wise virgins, or even from the Old Testament the stories of how the Patriarchs split up because there was no longer enough room for the flocks to graze.. (Abraham and Lot)
            God Himself did not tell the Israelites to throw open their borders to all and sundry..
            In my opinion this kind of compassion is humanistic rather than Godly.

  • john in cheshire

    A start would be to deny the people traffickers access to boats and ships. A blockade around the ports of departure could be relatively easy to achieve and ultimately less costly than allowing this flotsam to wash up on our shores.

    • sarky

      Flotsam? These are people we are talking about. Some of them are christians. The same christians who you are in such uproar about when they are beheaded on beaches.
      People like you make me sick, you spout on about gods love, but have no problem dehumanising people by comparing them to rubbish.

      • Inspector General

        Sarky – room to take in one of these chancers? Give a man his reward for breaking the law? If so, would you mind if he summons his family to his side in a few months’ time. He has a right to a family life, you know, even if it would be in your home…

        • sarky

          And if he’s a christian fleeing a beheading on youtube???

          • Inspector General

            Needs to fight back.

    • Dreadnaught

      What an inhuman and callous message that second sentence – you should hang your head in shame.

      • Royinsouthwest

        Are you really claiming that a blockade would not save lives?

  • The Explorer

    The Archbishop says all European countries must participate. Would that be a quota for each country, based on population size of host? Or land area? What?

    1. How do we know what numbers will arrive, and when, in order to allocate them equitably?

    2. Given the free movement with the EU, what’s to say the quotas will remain where they are allocated? I remember a documentary about the first Lampadusa influx. Some new arrival yelling he wasn’t going to stay in Italy, and was headed for London. The UK was not a signatory to the Schengen (or however its spelled) Agreement, so technically he wasn’t eligible. But I’ll bet that hasn’t stopped him.

  • Johnny Rottenborough

    Christians are commanded to take up their cross and follow the sacrificial way in offering food, shelter and hospitality to all those in need

    The good news is that food, shelter and hospitality can be offered just as effectively, and at much lower cost, in Africa. Africans would then have no need to risk a watery grave and Europe would not be overwhelmed by the hordes of a failed continent. Welby and his bishops will be packing their bags even as we speak, won’t they?

  • carl jacobs

    Instead of sitting around with its collective angst shoved up its collective backside, the nations of Europe could collectively act.

    1. Send an Expeditionary force to Libya.
    2. Occupy the country.
    3. End the civil chaos by imposition of force.
    4. Pick someone local and put him in charge.
    5. Give him the guns to maintain order by force.

    How long this would take, I don’t know. But if you don’t want refugees washing up on your shore, then you have to remove the incentive to come.

    • The Explorer

      There was someone local in charge. Europe helped to get rid of him.

      • carl jacobs

        I understand that. And a child could have predicted that this would happen as a result. So re-create what previously existed. There is no other answer – besides blockade and forcible return.

      • IanCad

        Sorry Explorer; didn’t read your post.

      • IanCad

        Further; just imagine the pickle we’d be in if the imbecile Hague had got his way and Assad were overthrown.

      • dannybhoy

        Islamic nations have always needed a strong man to control them. The Western neo Cons and Liberals destroyed that system, and look what is happening..

      • Merchantman

        Lest We Forget…. there on the touchline; egging on Dave and Barak to do ‘im in, was dear old auntie Beeb. Their very own Arab spring.

    • IanCad

      Poor old Gaddafi was just your man.

    • Dude great idea…. except that Europe doesn’t know what gun is, let alone have the capability or will to field an army. There’s more chances and success of Europe invading the moon. But I don’t think the clangers would like that.

  • The Explorer

    I believe that the human traffickers deliberately do not fuel up to capacity, to ensure that they run out during the voyage. They then contact the Italian lifeguards.

    If the lifeguards respond, then they have assumed responsibility for the fate of the victims. If they don’t respond… Well, imagine the outcry.

  • Malcolm Smith

    I noticed from recent films of the tragedy that the boat people were almost all black. Now, I have nothing against black people per se, but I do know they are not native to Libya. They must have crossed the Sahara to go to Libya, even though they knew it is a war zone. If they were genuine refugees fleeing oppression, they would normally only have to cross the border into the next country. Also, the fact that they have enough money to pay the people smugglers means that they would have been able to make a go of it in a neighbouring country. They have the least claim over your charity.
    Here, in Australia, we have a program called, Operation Sovereign Borders ie Stop the Boats. Boats are intercepted on the high seas. They are taken back a short distance from Indonesia, which is where they originated, are placed in a special, very safe, naval lifeboat with just enough fuel to take them to shore. Any people smugglers captured as imprisoned. If any boat gets through, the captain and crew go to gaol, and the passengers are not allowed to settle. They are confined in camps in PNG and Nauru until they can be sorted out. Those determined not to be refugees are sent home. If their claim is accepted (and usually we have only their word to go by), they are still not allowed to settle. They remain confined until some third country is prepared to take them.
    Moral of the story: this modern “Camp of the Saints” scenario has only occurred because they know they can get away with it. Stop it! Blockade the ports. Don’t let anyone settle, no matter how valid their claim. Even if you let them in, do not give them citizenship – ever. And you might seriously think of sending troops to Libya to end the war so that its citizens are not tempted to claim refugee status.

    • Linus

      Your ancestors who emigrated to Australia weren’t treated like that.

      But you’re alright Jack, aren’t you? Who care about them when you’ve got it easy.

      • The Explorer

        Dodgy talking to Australians about their ancestors. Depends on how far back you go, and whether the emigration was voluntary or involuntary.

        • Linus

          Voluntary or involuntary, they were still allowed in.

          • The Explorer

            Some killing of the existing inhabitants expedited the process.

          • dannybhoy

            In other words they invaded and defeated a weaker people.
            As the Spanish did in Mexico and South America.
            The Romans, the Greeks, the Mongols….

          • The Explorer

            The Anglo-Saxons, the Normans…
            Australia was ideal for convicts, being far away. They weren’t going to swim back to England. Australia was sparsely populated, and European diseases took their toll on the locals.. No need to systematically hunt them, except in Tasmania.
            Tasmania was good for sheep farming. Fences were built to contain the sheep. But the fences got in the way of Aborigines hunting kangaroos. The Aborigines took down the fences. So the settlers shot them. So the Aborigines shot the settlers. But bullets could kill more effectively than darts could. It was not an equal contest. Today, there are lots of sheep in Tasmania.

          • Dominic Stockford

            The sheep won.

            And they didn’t even fight.

          • The Explorer

            They had others to do it for them. The convicts who were sent to Tasmania were the ones that couldn’t be contained in Australia. And as for the soldiers… The most hardened troops to contain the most hardened convicts. But sheep farming was a wonderful positive step for the convicts. Some became law-abiding, and prosperous. But a disaster for the Aborigines trying to maintain an ancient way of life…

  • bluedog

    The EU/Italians need to demonstrate that their resolve to keep the boat-people out is greater than the will of the boat-people to risk the voyage. In successfully doing that, the EU/Italians will also discredit the organisers of these boats. Once it is shown that buying a ticket is a waste of money, the boats will stop. Currently the EU and the Italians are sending precisely the wrong message, namely that if you get in a leaky boat somewhere in Libya, we guarantee to resettle you in Europe.

  • David

    Europe cannot solve the problems of the world. But neither should it create chaos in functioning states which then trigger, or at least permit to cross, these human waves coming towards us. We must stop attacking countries and creating these problems. But the problems in the countries producing the immigrants cannot be ignored.

    We should, as Carl says, recreate a stable government in Libya, tow these boat people back there, and generally encourage the development of their African countries of origin, Libya and others. That is the positive, strategic and ultimately, longer term responsible approach. Cameron and Hollande destabilised Libya, and we should take responsibility for putting that right. A longer term strategic plan is needed than this simplistic and ultimately self-destructive knee-jerk reaction.

    Sometimes I despair of our human abilities to address anything that is not very simple. That’s why I feel humans truly are flawed as Christian theology teaches.

    • dannybhoy

      The great problem is if WE let ALL of these poor desperate folk into Europe, where does it all end? How can we cope? We can’t assimilate them because our own Muslim communities have shown that they do not WISH to assimilate!
      In fact, we are just beginning to see the consequences of Islamic emigration into Europe over the generations. Their young people born, raised and educated here, are starting to make their way in significant numbers to Syria to fight on the side of savages who are decapitating, raping and terrorising our fellow Christians! An organisation that is terrorising their own fellow Muslims in order to subdue them.
      Then there is the home grown terror threat..

      If we know that despite our best efforts this has been the outcome, WHY would we want to REPEAT the experiment?! Why would we want to run the risk of destroying our own culture and way of life in order to prove our own credentials as Christians and humanitarians?
      I just don’t see it.

      By all means intercept, re-fuel and feed and water and take them back to their own country. If necessary we send in forces to restore law and order so that peace can be restored, but we can’t keep on taking in more refugees.

      • David

        Welcome aboard the good ship Realism.

        • dannybhoy

          Exactly!
          Apart from being a (grateful) Christian I also like to describe myself to my adoring fans as an “optimistic realist..”

          • David

            Very good.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Just let in the Christians, like Nige suggested!

          • The Explorer

            The problem with that is, those running Europe are largely secular. They don’t want any more Christians.

          • Dominic Stockford

            I know, and they want to silence the ones they have.

    • CliveM

      It was Sarkozy, not Hollande.

      • David

        Was it ! OK.

  • carl jacobs

    One thing be should be granted. These people aren’t getting into crowded open boats for a 300-mile trip across the Mediterranean Sea simply because they want benefits and a better life. They have decided that the risk of death on the open sea is less than the risk of death where they currently reside. These people are fleeing the prospect of imminent death. Don’t demean them by suggesting that this is about money. Mass migration by open boat across a wide and dangerous body of water is never about money.

    • bluedog

      ‘Mass migration by open boat across a wide and dangerous body of water is never about money.’
      An assumption. It is reasonable to assume that the boat-people had other, potentially safer, options available to them. If they are sub-Saharan Africans, how did they safely cross the Sahara before embarking? Who sold them the tickets? Who arranged the boats? You don’t just cross 1000 miles of desert and miraculously bump into Ahmed who just happens to have a superannuated fishing boat ready for you. This has all the hallmarks of an organised racket.

    • I also read a story in the mail, about how Christian refugees were apparently thrown overboard for not praying to the “correct” god to save their refuge boat (this happened last week ). So they could be risking life and limb on the seas and with their fellow refugees :

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3046106/Christian-refugees-formed-human-chain-avoid-thrown-sea-Muslim-migrants.html

    • Dominic Stockford

      Not all of them, by a long way, are spiritual refugees – many are economic migrants.

  • CliveM

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9303722/italys-decriminalising-of-illegal-immigration-has-acted-as-a-green-light-to-boat-people/

    This seems a good analysis as to the background, source and history of the situation as it currently is. Interestingly the author seems to blame (at least partially) the Italian Governments decision to de-criminalise the status of the immigrants. If true it may have something to say about any current proposals.

    • dannybhoy

      That’s a good article, Clive. Do you take the Spectator regularly? I think you’ve referred to other Spectator articles before.

      • CliveM

        If I am travelling or away on business I usually buy one. Don’t have time at home.

        I think the article is a good one. It does show it’s more the sub Saharan Africans. Clearly it’s also people fleeing the hell of Syria and Iraq etc. it is a desperate situation.

        • Hi Clive

          They also do some good blogs.

          • dannybhoy

            Hello Sweet pea, how are you keeping?

          • Hi Danny

            I’m fine, but busy. I’d you’d said hi to me on my blog, you’d know

          • dannybhoy

            Ouccchhh!

          • dannybhoy

            Hi Sweet pea!!
            I’ve been busy, getting over ‘motza cramps’ and my sister’s awful vegetarian cooking. Also been entertaining and ‘genning up’ on some Jewish/Christian theological differences
            AAAAArgggggh!

        • dannybhoy

          I liked the articles you’ve linked to previously. Seemed quite balanced to me.
          But then whaddo I know..

          • CliveM

            I like the Spectator, there is always something worthwhile in it.

          • dannybhoy

            Fish ‘n chips?
            Sorry,
            I was trying to be being funny…
            (Sighs heavily)
            On a brighter note me and the long suffering Mrs Dannybhoy are celebrating 24 years together today!
            Exchanging cards
            Washing clothes
            Weeding the garden
            pressure washing the patio…
            Domestic bliss eh?
            Thank you Lord Jesus, for your many blessings to us who do not deserve them, and be with each one of us as we seek to serve you in your glorious kingdom.
            Amen.

          • CliveM

            Oh I have it a short chuckle!

            Happy 24th and many more of them.

          • dannybhoy

            Thanks Clive.

            I hope so.

            The intention is a trip to Italy by car next year, our 25th to join Happy Jack and the Pope in (secret) trilateral talks on the future of the Church of England..

            A week in Rome.
            A short visit to some Baptists near Venice

            A week in Florence
            learning about art ‘culcher’

            and lots of ice cream..

            We will (DV) meet lots of lovely Catlicks and engage their help in erecting our (never used) tent…

      • Dominic Stockford

        The Spectator is growing on me as a magazine of some value.

        • dannybhoy

          On your endorsement Sir, I may purchase a copy..

          • Dominic Stockford

            Not every article, mind you – but enough to give me pause for thought. Worth trying one.

          • CliveM

            Hmm why not mine?

          • dannybhoy

            “Cos you’re not as eddicated as Dominic’s name seems to suggest he is, and he probably prefers doner kebabs to a cod and four penn’orth wrapped in a magazine…

  • The other tragedy is that Africa itself is a truly beautiful continent and one that does NOT have to be poor,given its massive natural resources. What is at fault their own nations is the governments of those countries who don’t care about their citizens and their nations, to grow and prosper them (take rhodesia which was once a relatively rich country, but ayer 35 years of the tyrant Mugabe, it is an inflationary basket case or the racist expulsions of Asians of Uganda, who were a rich entrepreneurial minority) . And secondly, those state where there isn’t any government, but are what we call failed states or as Hobbes would say a state of nature where life is “nasty, brutish and short”. Thirdly Europe and other western states don’t help matters by shutting out or having high tariff barriers to Africa’s goods, such as agricultural produce.

    • sarky

      Even if the EU were to allow African countries a level playing field, you just know that the large food manufacturers would exploit the local growers for increased profit. The Chinese have invested massively in Africa to basically rape them of their natural resources with little to show for the local population.
      For Africa to be rich, it needs to do it for itself. Unfortunately corruption will see that the people will see little or no benefit.

      • Dude

        I didn’t advocate any solutions, just tried to note some of the wider and longer term problems. I do think better trading terms would help, but internally it’s also about Africa being able to deal with matters such as good governance, rule of law , education and treatment of minorities.

    • dannybhoy

      I didn’t know about the high tariffs bit Shmu’el, but there does seem to be in Africa a certain tribal mindset that makes it difficult to establish workable infrastructures, administer and maintain them. As a consequence corruption, strife and unaccountability of leadership seems to be the order of the day.

      • Dude

        As a UKIPer, I’m sure you’ll find someone who knows the ins and outs of the CAP and quota system, which is just for starters (as the European union is a customs union as well as a free trade bloc) .

        • dannybhoy

          Well I suppose I could.

          Or if you’ve got a few spare hours you could try looking it up here… 🙂

          http://www.ukip.org/manifesto2015?utm_campaign=manifesto&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ukip

          It’s not that I’m not interested – well, okay it is.
          But I do want to see fair play on all levels, and I am for instance aware of the inequalities, corruption and inefficiencies of the EU’s CAP.
          But none of this can really get sssorted ssssonny,* until or unless we leave the EU, and on that (simple) level I support UKIP.
          * You have to say it like the beaver in Bambi…

          • Dude

            Ah well, we have plenty of kippers on our blog , so I get the message. A topic for another day, I think.

          • dannybhoy

            You’re on a roll here Shmu’el.. 🙂

          • sarky

            Alot of those ‘kippers’ need smokin’ !!

  • Shadrach Fire

    What could the poor Welby do or say? He is the head of a church, not a Government or Military Forces. All he can do is pray.
    I say though, let them all come, fill up the towns and the villages until we are overcome with those who want the rights and privileges of western society without having worked for it. Mean time I am building my own Ark (complete with buoyancy tanks) so that I can escape the melt down Europe and head to the abandoned continent of Africa where I can spread out as much as I like and live in relative peace.

    • dannybhoy

      Lol!

      • sarky

        Before you make a big joke of this, just saw a heartbreaking picture of a man carrying a drowned tiny child from the ocean. How about a bit of decency.

        • dannybhoy

          Who’s making a big joke out of it? Shadrach’s piece about building an ark is humorous. He wasn’t being humorous about people drowning was he?
          Or did I miss something..

          • sarky

            “Complete with buoyancy tanks”

          • Shadrach Fire

            Anyone with a little common sense would not pay to get into a leaky vessel.

          • sarky

            Unless of course you are desperate and that leaky vessel is better than the alternative.

          • dannybhoy

            Or maybe those that do the organising make sure there’s no buoyancy aides..
            I still think you’re being po-faced.

          • sarky

            Well I don’t find anything to laugh about in the deaths of 1000 people in 24hrs.

          • dannybhoy

            But that wasn’t what Shadrach was writing about, was it?

          • dannybhoy

            That’s offensive?
            That lacks decency??
            Methinks you’re being a bit ‘po faced’ there Sarky.

        • Shadrach Fire

          We care, of course we do. But as individuals there is little that we can do other that encourage those that have influence.
          Seriously though, I am contemplating leaving this beautiful but overloaded island that has little of the land that I grew up in.

  • Dreadnaught

    Turkey should be taking more of them if they are Muslims – they can use the space they created liquidating the Armenians. Bosnisa, Albania Chechnya, Saudi Arabia and Iran, Pakistan should also in the frame long before Europe thows down the welcome mat: planes can still fly to Islamabad and Ryadh etc just get on with it. The trouble is that amongst the many genuine asylum seekers there will be an equal number of asylum sneakers and illegal economic opportunists.

    Blockading the entire coast of N.Africa even if it was possible, is not the long term answer but at least it would be a start and coupled with immediate transfer of the poor unfortunates to a muslim country. We can’t even bring ourselves to secure our own borders or offer priority sanctuary to Christians; so why isn’t the CoE and the Vatican doing more? Because they know tens of milions of Christians around the world will be cruelly massacred at the drop of a Bishops hat by the followers of the ‘Religion of Peace’.

    It’s not Western Nation States that have created this genocidal mess, it is Islam and its corrosive ideology that needs to be neutered and hard neutered at that. Every western country has to clear out the internal threat that will, in no uncertain terms one day forment an insurrection in their own back yards.

    The UN, The EU and the Islamic Conference States should have been hammering out global policy to contain the violence long, long ago. But they won’t will they; after all it is only the way of the Prophet innit? and no one want’s to offend the bloody Muslims!

  • The Explorer

    I remember a Perrier advert from the 70’s. A cartoon. Someone crawling in the desert, dying of thirst. “Perrier, Perrier!” He comes to a bar. There is water, but no Perrier. He crawls on. “Perrier, Perrier!”
    There are Muslim equivalents of that bar. Dreadnaught has listed some of them. But only Western Europe will do.
    (There is a flaw in my comparison. Does the fault lie in the reluctance of the refugees to go to those countries, or in the reluctance of those countries to take them?)

  • DanJ0

    What’s the criteria for taking migrants in and distributing them around Europe? That they’re desperate enough, or ignorant enough, to try to make the trip from Libya in a dodgy boat? If we’re to rescue boats in advance simply because they’re on their way over then we may as well just build a bridge or operate a ferry service as a means of starving the people traffickers of funds. That whole families are drowning in their quest for a better life in Europe is horrible and depressing but surely the action must be to stop or discourage them from making the trip in the first place?

    • sarky

      Don’t think we’ll ever stop people trying to get here, but the least we can do is put steps in place to stop the traffickers.

    • CliveM

      I agree DanJo. But how? I’m not sure their is an answer to that.

  • The Explorer

    “Europe as a whole.”
    The Shengen agreement (to which Britain is not a signatory) allows for the free movement of people within Europe.
    When the first boatloads of Libyan refugees turned up in Lampedusa (back in 2011 or thereabouts) and outnumbered the inhabitants of the island, Sarkozy wanted to suspend the Shengen Agreement to keep them out of France. Italy had accepted them. Italy’s problem.

  • Inspector General

    The Inspector finds himself completely unmoved by the so called plight of the so called refugees. Isn’t that a terrible thing? To shrug his shoulders like that. To be disinterested about those who drown, whether it be by boat capsizing or by being thrown out of thing by muslims after a bit of Islamic-Christian ‘coming together’. But do you want mealy mouthed politician grade sympathy or direct honesty, even if it is not particularly refreshing. Let’s hope it’s the latter because you’re going to getting plenty of that. You see, this man is not his brother’s keeper. You takes your chance in this world, and if by doing that you find yourself floating face down in the sea, don’t go crying at the Inspector’s door…

    That the black fellow in Africa couldn’t run even a raffle comes as no surprise. But we have to let him try on his own anyway. We can’t help him you see, because to do that would violate his sovereignty. It appears his pride is far far more important than that of the welfare of the wretches unlucky enough to have been born under his jurisdiction. To even think of intervention means you are a racist, and being a racist is one of the worst sins known to God (well, man actually. God gave us the races with all their marvellous diversity, and thus the legion of problems so resulting, so he won’t be complaining too much if at all).

    • The Explorer

      The Africans can run raffles. Idi Amin (Healey was Chancellor at the time, I think, about the time he went begging to the World Bank) raffled a goat in Uganda to help the British economy. As he said, “I like the British. I’m sorry for them. I want to help them.” And he raised something like 78 Ugandan shillings!

      • Inspector General

        Yes! Around the same time Idi told the Ugandan post office to remove the Queen’s head from postage stamps. Buckingham palace retaliated by asking Messrs Robinson and son to remove Idi’s portrait from their jam jars…

        • The Explorer

          Idi removed a lot of other heads as well, and stored them in his freezer. He would take them out from time to time, and admonish them for their folly in opposing him. It is doubtful, though, that they paid him much attention. Rather frozen in their opinions, one might say.

          • Inspector General

            He also ate part of his archbishop’s liver. The fellow no longer needing it after falling out with the tyrant…

          • The Explorer

            Was the archbishop alive at the time?

          • Inspector General

            Let’s just say he used to be…

          • The Explorer

            Idi would have gone down well in Liberia. President Doe’s successor cut off Doe’s ears and ate them. He had himself videoed doing it, plus footage of Doe bleeding to death. Not a man to miss a financial opportunity, the video then went on sale, both within Liberia and to any other African countries prepared to buy it. Regrettably. some were.

          • Inspector General

            The blighters ate all of Master Sergeant Samuel Doe. One suspects they even sucked the bones. Absolute rotters, what!

          • The Explorer

            For the best of reasons. To acquire his ju ju.

          • Pubcrawler

            In the phrase that Cicero used to announce the deaths of the Catiline conspirators: ‘vixerunt’.

        • IanCad

          Hilarious!

      • Inspector General

        Idi did send the 78 schillings over, via the Uganda foreign office, where the sum was last seen entering several wallah’s back pockets…

    • dannybhoy

      It is a terrible thing to be unmoved Inspector. They are human beings when all is said and done and compassion should be extended.
      Thatos not to say I disagree with your basic premise though, Unless Europe drops this Human Rights nonsense and realises that its own cultural existence is at risk it will indeed go under.
      Our parents realised what was at stake with Hitler, and the Jews certainly did.
      They would have realised the danger to Europe from overwhelming numbers of refugees from a failed religion (and Islam has failed in showing peace and compassion), and they would have done what was necessary to protect our way of life, rather than hold “interfaith” talks…

      • Inspector General

        You take your chance in this world…It’s God’s way….

        • dannybhoy

          No I can’t agree with that Inspector.
          God’s way is to put Him first in our lives whatever comes. Those that serve false gods will take the consequences, and that often becomes self evident by how they live.
          We should do good and show compassion, but not at the expense, or risk of our own security and way of life.
          False gods are merciless and indifferent to the suffering of their own worshippers..

          • Inspector General

            See it from God’s point of view Danny. He gave us independence in thought and deed. It wasn’t going to be a tale of happiness, now was it? We can thank our forebears for bringing Christ’s message to us today. It has given us hope and the chance of salvation…

          • dannybhoy

            If you had put the emphasis on God’s salvation first, we would very nearly have been in agreement.
            I accept that we live in a cause and effect world, that Christians are not exempt from pain or suffering, and that being ‘good’ does not necessarily mean you will be materially or biologically blessed..
            The important thing is that we try and make sense of it all. God loves all people. Even Linus. He wants us all to choose to be reconciled to Him through Christ, but He knows not everyone will.
            Our part in all that is to become more Christlike, more aware of our own failings and the struggles of others, and allow God’s love to flow through us.

  • Inspector General

    “Europe as a whole must rise up and seek to do what is right”

    Right then. Not how to deal with the problem per se, but how to stop it…

    1. European force lands in Libya and secures area for large permanent base.

    2. All migrants who make it to Europe to be rounded up, put in a cage, and shipped to this place.

    3. On arrival, to be fed, watered and booted out. Libya’s problem now as it was to begin with.

    4. Advertise in the areas where the migrants originate from that this is what they are handing over their good money for. Effectively, a trip to the Libyan seaside and back again.

    5. People smugglers to be shot on sight. If you don’t have the stomach for that, put them on trial, then hang them. If you don’t have the stomach for that, jail them for life.

    6. Any Libyan complaining about the foreign base or bringing back the wretches there, shoot him on sight, or turn a flame thrower on him. (A certain American ambassador would still be alive if the latter had been carried out). If you don’t have the stomach for that, put him in a cage too.

    Any questions?

    • dannybhoy

      A jaw dropper there. Inspector..

      • Inspector General

        One likes to think of it as the ‘middle way’, Danny

        • CliveM

          Blair use to go on about Nu Labor being the middle way! Your incorrigible. However we both know that (thankfully) your proposed ‘solution’ isn’t going to happen. And it’s not just down to the ECHR!!!

    • LoveMeIamALiberal

      6. is unnecessary but otherwise this is the best solution and the only way to bring any sort of end to this tide of human misery.

  • Dominic Stockford

    The real problems are almost unsurmountable.

    A. Those seeking to come. Who is to decide who is who, and what do we do with the second group?
    1. Some are desperate to come and escape from the anti-Christian persecution endemic across much of northern Africa.
    2. Some are coming for a ‘better life’.

    B. Despite European laws stating that refugees should remain in the country they first arrive in, it seems reasonable that genuine refugees ought to be able to have some eventual choice of haven. Some of those interviewed, English speaking Nigerian Christians who have ended up hopelessly trapped in Libya, should at least have the opportunity to come to an English speaking country.

    C. How can anyone stop more fools heading for the golden gates of Elysium (which seems to be what most of them erroneously think Europe is)?

    D. Why have the non-spiritual-refugees decided that coming to the wealth of Europe, and grabbing a share of that wealth, will make their lives better? Who has told them this, and who will disabuse them of the idea that apparent wealth is such a benefit.

    E. How can we bring stability to the nations they are fleeing from, which we had such a hand in undermining in the first place?

  • Hi

    This is a difficult for me because I’m a descendant of Jewish refugees , although we came here and took no welfare, but worked ourselves up the ladder and my Israeli relatives who went to Israel after the expulsions as a result of Arab ethnic cleansing spent many years living in tents in the Negev desert. That and I recall the 1930s, when Britain, even the lands of the empire, said no to allowing Jewish Germans/Austrians, Czechs, to, say, go to -ironically- British Africa or even the Raj, France , the US etc refused to take in many Jewish people who’d later become victims of the holocaust and after 1945 Britain sending back ships full of holocaust victims from trying to get to mandated Palestine.

    Although I do understand that 2015 I’d slightly different from 1930s Germany, as this is about economic advancement , as much as persecution. Europe couldn’t take on all the people from Africa who wish to come here to better themselves, as that would probably be more than the population of Europe as it is now. I also appreciate that we have homeless citizens in our country and housing is an issue for many people. It would only serve to cause racial and racist resentment against legal and legitimate citizens of Europe who are already minorities in this continent, especially if it is percecived these refugees are given what will be seen as generous welfare and housing benefits (which were incidentally non existent in the 1930s).

    On the other hand nobody can be but moved by the harrowing scenes on the t.v. screen : Jews have been there . So short of the “Jacobs doctrine” mentioned below, I can suggest that the refugees could be looked after in the uninhabited parts of what’s left of the British and French empires, like the south Georgia colony and the French southern and Antarctic lands (bigger than the square km of the UK).

    • Dominic Stockford

      Of course, those TV screens are remarkably short on Christians continuing to be killed and harassed in Syria and Iraq. Methinks the media have got bored and ‘moved on’. As they will from this in a few days. Sadly, that is all it will take them to do so.

      • Hi Dominic

        I’d say that the answer would be for the western powers to create a country in the middle east for Christians and another state for Kurds, in the same way that Israel is there for Jews,but also protects minorities . The Christians are crucified and persecuted and the Kurds -who are, in my personal experience, industrious, hard working and family centred- are at the forefront of the battle against the fascist IS . Both need to be supported.

        • Linus

          The West isn’t in a position to create anything in the Middle East. It can barely stop its troops from being massacred in Afghanistan and Iraq, let alone swoop in, clear a space and create a new country for Christians.

          For a start, Saudi Arabia just wouldn’t tolerate it. Secondly, it would cost billions we just don’t have. Dreams of the West being able to prop up foreign regimes that don’t have popular support and the tolerance of their neighbours died with the defeat of South Vietnam. We refused to believe it at first, but Afghanistan and Iraq have proved the point beyond the ability of even the most chauvinistic American general to deny.

          There is nowhere we can dump these refugees and forget about them. Either they come here or they’ll have to be turned back, and if we turn them back, we might as well just sink their ships from under them. It would be a more humane solution. We have to take them in because if we don’t, we’re just as bad as the madmen they’re fleeing from.

          Immigrants are here and there are more coming. Get used to it. We’re witnessing a mass movement of populations that will change our societies forever. That’s our new reality.

          • The Explorer

            I agree that the population movement is unprecedented. Reasons for it?

            1. Loss of belief by the have nations in the after life. Flaunt what you have in the here and now.

            2. Better modes of communication. Have-not nations seeing, through film and TV, what the haves are flaunting.

            3. Better modes of transport, enabling mass movement as never before.

          • Hi Linus

            LOL,you clearly haven’t read my post properly. I should write a longer post but , life is too short Mon’Amie.

          • Linus

            I’m not your girlfriend. Why can the inhabitants of your island never get anything right when they try to speak another language?

          • Ooh la la!

          • Hannah

            Linus the almighty has spoken and you are found wanting! Let’s face it .Your English is barely passable, your Arabic is appalling, your Yiddish is dreadful, your Ladino is best left outside. I wouldn’t even bother about the Aramaic. And this excuse for French ! I blame that on our Moroccan -French brother in law.

          • Hannah, tut, tut. The correct address from you to Linus is: “Petite Amie”

          • The Explorer

            You can’t say that. You’d first have to know where Linus defines himself on the 52-gender scale. As far as I’m aware, Linus has never done so.

          • Oh goodie, a French test.

          • Hmmm …. doesn’t “Mon’ Amie” simply mean “my friend”? Touch anti-social and prickly of you, Linus.

          • The Explorer

            It’s the ‘ami’ bit that’s the issue. Un ami = male, une amie = female. Of course, a lot depends on where along the 52- gender spectrum Linus sees himself. French will have to adapt itself accordingly.

          • Hi explorer

            Yeah. Don’t tell, but I know.

          • The Explorer

            I got to know that kind of stuff from living in France. Despite living in France, I never got to know Linus.

          • Hi explorer

            I do like the idea of biking with chains of onions and garlic around my neck and living in some provincial backwater, whilst eating good food and fine wine (kosher of course) and watching the world go by. But then Linus is ulike any French person I’ve met. Although I should say “French speaking person”.

          • The Explorer

            Linus is very sweet-natured, really: it’s just that some of us rile him up now and then.

            Yeah, I was lying. Well, not about the riling him up bit: except that that’s all of us all of the time.

            I have very happy memories of life in a rural backwater of France. Great days. Back in the UK for good now, though.

          • Yes, it’s all so old fashioned nowadays to define oneself in conventional binary terms. Surely the French can come up with some gender neutral expressions.

          • Hi happy Jack

            I added an e to the end of ami , which is the feminine usage of the word, rather than the masculine, because I was fed up with the way Linus responds to me in what I consider to be a snarky, condescending, patronising and insulting manner.

          • Good for you, gal. Go get him/her/it.

          • Old Blowers

            It’s coz he’s a frog…It’s in there DNA, Ya’know!! He’s undoubtedly disturbed because you don’t have a handle bar tache like his maman so struggles to relate to a feminine looking type.

          • The Explorer

            Blowers, I think you will shortly qualify for an MHBL award.

          • Old Blowers

            Does the DWP pay this to me as part of the universal credit stipend or is it some sort of blog BAFTA trophy??

          • The Explorer

            ‘Most Hated by Linus’. award Other recipients of this coveted gong include Happy Jack, The Inspector (inevitably), Magnolia and Anton.

          • CliveM

            Ahem………..?

          • The Explorer

            Yes I know, but that was a while back, and it would take too long to explain the context to Blowers. I was going by the four most recent. If you notice, I excluded myself as well. I think at the moment, the Inspector has surged into the lead.

          • CliveM

            Well I won’t argue with that!

          • Old Blowers

            Well I never take his doubting Thomas act seriously, he is just plain dense… The French are that stupid they still need more proof that Michael Jackson had ever had plastic surgery…Taking an atheist frenchmen seriously is a non non *giggles*

          • Pubcrawler

            Steady on, his mother is/was English, with doubtless as impeccably hairless an upper lip as our own dear Duchess of Cambridge.

          • Old Blowers

            If she was from Cornwall all bets are off on the hairless upper lip as I read Linus’s ancestry family tree online, with a quote stated by his grandparents who named his mother after traditional Cornish inspiration.

            I don’t think Mrs ‘pasty muncher six toes’ had a particularly happy time at school hence naming old poo face as Linus seemed a sure way of spreading the Cornish misery in the family .

          • Linus

            Kate Middleton is English? And here I was thinking she’d arrived pre-packaged and plastic wrapped directly from a factory somewhere in China. Instant princess, just add water, hair extensions and a bit of naff old glitter. Hey presto, it’s Brunette Barbie!

          • CliveM

            Why should you be different from the rest of us? :0)

          • Hi Clive

            I know, it’s like an “initiation ceremony” or something!

          • CliveM

            Fazing I think it’s called!

          • Hi Clive

            I’m definitely fazed!

          • CliveM

            Oops meant hazing!!

          • Linus

            “Mon Amie” (minus the apostrophe – only your imaginary god knows where that came from – Italian, perhaps?) means “my female friend”, i.e. my girl friend. I am not a female nor am I transgender, so it is incorrect to refer to me as such.

            Brits who don’t speak a foreign language would be better off not even trying. You have no aptitude for languages. You should thank your lucky stars that everyone has to learn English nowadays. When French was the universal tongue, the clueless Englishman stumbling his way through a butchered sentence and ending with the inevitable “murci beau cul” was an international figure of fun. Now only we French get to laugh at your attempts to speak our language. And believe me, we do.

            Elles sont chaudes, ces pauvres Anglaises. Rouges crevette, potelées et très, très chaudes. Au moins, c’est ce qu’elles nous disent elles-mêmes. On les entend à la terrasse du café dire “Oh murci por le bouassonne frouade, monsiuour. Il est très chaude et je suis très chaude, I mean je suis en chaleur, vu comprenez ! Murci beau cul !”

            ROFL! And to think we’ll be getting more of them this year because your pound is doing so well. Waiters up and down the land will be running for cover. VIZ and its two lovely specimens of English womanhood, San and Tray (Oh Lordy, it’s the Fat Slags!) are coming to town. “Oo errr, I don’t fancy yours much…”

          • Why not break the ‘rules’ over language, Linus? You play fast and loose with other conventions? French will soon be a dead language anyways, might as well just get used to it. You’ll probably all be speaking Arabic soon. If you’re lucky, English might prevail.

          • Linus

            Ignorance is not the same as deliberately breaking the rules, Sad Jack. Even your Church acknowledges that.

            Dannybhoy’s sorry attempt to “shprecken zee Doytch” (deliberate rule breaking on my part, do you see?) was not born of a genuine and therefore laudible desire to break or subvert outmoded and arbitrary rules, but rather of pure ignorance.

            He didn’t even bother to run his phrase through Google Translate, which might have alerted him to the error he was making. He just assumed he knew what he was doing and ploughed on regardless.

            Ignorance doesn’t make you a revolutionary hero. It just makes you look “stoopid”. Oops, more deliberate rule breaking from me … a rule that dannybhoy himself broke in a previous post with appropriate intent, and which I did not therefore make an issue of.

            By all means play smart if you are smart, but if you’re not (and we can’t all be smart about everything), discretion is the better part of valour.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Try adding a little more bran to your diet…

          • With that intelligence and ability to reason, Linus, Jack seriously wonders why you do not believe in a Creator and why you are not a Christian. Can it be there is some impediment that clouds your judgement and reason?

          • Inspector General

            God is straight…

          • God is Spirit …. He’s not a sexual Being.

          • Linus

            How can anyone possessing even a modicum of intelligence accept a story for which there exists not a single shred of evidence and which, in order to be true, requires proven laws of physics that we know to be reliable and universal to be casually disregarded?

            People do not come back from the dead. Loaves and dead fishes do not suddenly replicate themselves. Neither does wine. And if God really does exist and wants us to believe in him, why would he hide himself so comprehensively that we can find no trace of his existence? It’s almost as if he doesn’t want to be found, which for a supposedly benevolent god who desires our love and worship, seems a strange attititude to take.

            To resolve these problems the religionist has to jump through several hoops made out of credulity (otherwise known as faith) and make-believe.

            Ockham’s razor, an idea raised elsewhere on this blog by someone else, precludes the possibility of the Resurrection. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best answer. And the simplest explanation for the Resurrection is that it’s a hoax perpetrated by a disappointed bunch of religious fanatics avid for power, influence and probably a genuine desire to find a way out of the crappy world they were born into, yet unable to produce a reanimated messiah who could grant them their wish.

            Religious fanatics fabricate miracles all the time. Look at any statue of a virgin or saint that cries bloody tears and you’ll soon realise the lengths religionists will go to in order to feed their fantasies.

            Intelligence requires hard and fast facts in order to make reliable conclusions. Christianity offers none. Instead it relies on wishful thinking and imagination. No truly intelligent being can take it seriously.

          • You keep asking those questions Linus and one day the answers the may come unexpectedly. We’ve had our differences, and no doubt will have future ones, but Jack wishes you well.

          • Linus

            Sad Jack wishes me at the bottom of the deep blue sea, or anywhere else where I can’t spoil his dream of a perfect Catholic theocracy by throwing a big gay spanner in the works.

            There he is preaching welcome and acceptance of homophobic immigrants because he sees them as the perfect solution to the gay problem. His “wishing me well” entails a pious hope that I’ll recant my evil homosexuality and atheism in the moments before an enraged Muslim mob throws me off a tall building.

            And there Sad Jack’s most profound prayers are revealed. “Lord, please visit a plague on my enemy, but don’t tell anyone it was me who asked for it because I want to keep on posing as a model of piety, so I need someone else to do my dirty work for me…”

            That’s Catholic charity for you. Look and learn…

          • Now, now, Linus. Jack simply hopes that one day will leave your sinful ways behind and find true peace. He wishes you no ill at all.

          • Linus

            Liar.

          • That was uncalled for Linus.

          • Old Blowers

            Heard Linus bought a sat nav the other day..It must be really awkward for gay people when even their sat-Nav tells them to go straight..

          • Hmmm … but imagine if its ever says “avoid going up the next turning as its a dead-end”. Jack hears Southend is a popular destination for his friends.

      • dannybhoy

        Dom,
        The Jewish people learnt the lesson from Europe and took the opportunity afforded by a then dominant Great Britain to settle in a Jewish home in Palestine..
        Europeans and Christians are going to run the gauntlet of persecution too, unless they wise up to the lessons of history and start standing up for their homelands and cultures.

      • dannybhoy

        Have they got bored or is it that they just don’t /won’t care about Christians until they become a persecuted minority..

  • fred m

    Just as I don’t have to let in anyone who comes to my door, so Europe does not have to take all refugees, or we will end up with a society that is not attractive to them. The best thing is for the navies and coastguards of Europe to prevent these ships leaving harbour, effectively controlling North Africa’s shipping.

    • The Explorer

      Quite. “You have a nice house. I want a better life. Let me live here.”
      A society not attractive to them (just like the one they’re trying to leave, in fact) would certainly solve the problem. But one hell of a solution.

      • fred m

        Yes. On the other hand, developing Africa’s economy would help, after all that World Bank and IMF ‘help’ still no industry to speak of. Also acknowledge that, as Turkey Iran and the Arabs are tearing up Iraq and Syria between them, its their responsibility to deal with the refugees.

  • Inspector General

    There seems to be a mass outbreak of compassion fatigue here this day.

    The Inspector excepted. He’s made of sterner, some say crueller stuff. And he’s thinking right now how many of the Islamic migrants who made it and haven’t been caught have offered their ‘services’ to the local mosque…

    • carl jacobs

      It’s amazing that you haven’t suggested machine-gunning the boats on sight. That is without question the most effective way to stop the flow. And it certainly fits well with compassion fatigue.

      • Inspector General

        Not fair Carl. Anyway, one has published his considered recommendation and hopes that it is taken up and acted on. Thankfully, you seem to passively agree otherwise you would have savaged it first. Throw the priests out of the room and let hardened men show the way, don’t you think?

        • Linus

          Hope springs eternal in the hearts of vicious old bigots too, it seems.

          Problem is that your “recommendations” will be ignored just like the rest of the fascist drivel that pours from your keyboard.

          Immigrants are here to stay. More are coming. And more will follow them. Ever thought of taking up Polish lessons? It might help you when you’re confined to a wheelchair in whatever unpleasant state-run geriatric facility they shut you away in when your mind gives out completely if you have a few words of the language your carers best understand. Phrases like “ouch”, or “please don’t beat me”, or “I’m hungry, please may I have something to eat” might be particularly useful.

          • Inspector General

            You wicked old poof!

          • They’ll more like all be queer carers too, Inspector. A few more phrases may come in handy too.

          • The Explorer

            Lord Falconer’s bill might have been passed long before the scenario envisaged by Linus for the Inspector becomes an issue. Following on from that, there might be no need for geriatric facilities. There might be no geriatrics.

          • There’ll come a time when euthanasia will no longer be “voluntary”.

          • dannybhoy

            (Gasps and clutches at pinny)
            You’ve received hate mail Jack??

          • CliveM

            I really don’t get that?

          • dannybhoy

            Perhaps Jack’s been threatened with death by some angry Anglicans he owed money to…

          • The Explorer

            It will be voluntary as long as you agree to it.

          • Euthanasia squads ready to move in and ‘relieve’ human suffering after accidents and natural disasters e.g. an oldie tripping over a paving stone and breaking a limb. Would want them to suffer (or cost too much giving treatment to).

          • CliveM

            I think the Inspector has more then enough phrases for such an eventuality already!!

          • The Explorer

            Are Poles the issue? They certainly aren’t the issue in relation to this thread. It wasn’t Poles who drowned in the Mediterranean.

        • dannybhoy

          Inspector,
          What I like about you is that you’re honest and upfront. I might not always agree with your ‘remedies’ but I do respect your integrity.

          • Inspector General

            You’ll not find a more honest man in his intentions and beliefs, that man…

      • CliveM

        To get compassion fatigue don’t you need to have shown compassion first?

  • magnolia

    Unfortunately Europe is not even showing its own, i.e. the Greeks many shreds of compassion. Those banks that lent at a high interest rate will demand the Greek deposits back, and some will lose their life savings and homes. So much for the high interest rates being due to “risk”. What risk is there at the point of a figurative gun to the head? Already there are plenty who post “I don’t have any sympathy for the Greeks; they are lazy and don’t pay taxes”. So they will watch while a once great civilisation is taken apart and trashed, due to the idiocy of the euro experiment, and make ill-informed judgemental statements from the sidelines as Greeks are forced into poverty. I wonder whether the media will care much.

    There is an interesting point made on a website called veritaseum where the writer points out a “trilemna” whereby you cannot have all these three at the same time:
    1. A fixed exchange rate
    2. Free capital movement
    3. An independent monetary policy
    That is what will have done for Greece.

    Most people really need their own country to work, not to be uprooted from their communities, friends, relations, culture, and knowledge base. Should we not first care for them in situ? Sometimes that means less meddling, esp. from the US, to start with.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    I heard today that Nigel Farage has said that Britian should offer sanctuary to some of the Libyan Christians…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11548171/Nigel-Farage-David-Cameron-directly-caused-Libyan-migrant-crisis.html

    At least somebody is coming up with some practical suggestions. Meanwhile, why are the muslim countries doing nothing to help? Oh I forgot, they don’t do compassion. They’re exprerts on revenge, murder, and terror but not so good on lending a helping hand to refugees.

    As we go to cast our votes in a couple of weeks, we might want to remember that it was our glorious PM who decided it was better to help topple the dictator Gadaffi and let those nice rebels set up a European-style democracy. You know the the sort of democracy that permits all kinds of “freedoms”: drinking, drugs, abortions, gay marriage, etc.. all the things you find under sharia law. Unfortunately, for some reason the rebels sniffed at the idea and returned to what they do best – killing.

    • dannybhoy

      Well he did, but I am under no illusion that Nigel is any more “Christian” than Dave or Nick. Perhaps more respectful, that’s all. Nigel isn’t really a politician. That’s probably why people like him.
      Amyway, I think the welfare and security of our fellow Christians should be the priority of the Christian Church in Europe, and I think safe areas should be created for them in ‘friendlier’ ME nations.
      In fact I think as European Christians we should be putting their safety first of all, others afterwards.

      • Inspector General

        “Nigel isn’t really a politician. That’s probably why people like him.”

        And isn’t he all the more attractive for that…

        • dannybhoy

          Indeed.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Imagine if he looked like ‘Ross Poldark’? There would be a UKIP landslide…

  • Justin Welby is quite correct in his analysis and in his position about how Europe should respond.

    • CliveM

      Quite right HJ.

    • dannybhoy

      And how many will be too many?
      And how will we pay for all the health care
      and housing and education,
      and potential crime/terrorism
      and unemployment,
      when we ourselves can’t/won’t look after our own old people now?
      How?

      • Sometimes one has to do the right thing and then count the cost.

        • dannybhoy

          HJ
          That is not a coherent answer.
          For the sake of an over sensitive conscience you would be willing to risk social upheaval the introduction of ever greater governmental controls to keep the peace, economic stability and the increase the possiblity of religious strife “because it’s the right thing to do”?
          I don’t believe it.
          Nothing is to be gained by introducing multitudes of refugees into Europe. A Europe that is already beginning to struggle with unrest and terrorism amongst its own Islamic communities.
          We deal with the problem by returning these folk to their own country, and setting up safe havens, secure camps whilst tackling those responsible.

          • …. and meantime we keep letting them drown in the sea?

          • dannybhoy

            I’ve already addressed that Jack. We intercept, feed and water and escort them back to the country of origin. We have drones that can be deployed all along the route to observe sea traffic. It’s do-able.
            I just see it like how it works with the Benefits system. The more you cater for the unemployed or unemployable, the more of them there will be. It’s human nature .
            Like you I too would seek a better life if mine was crap, but we also have to accept that the greater the numbers of people seeking a new life, the greater the impact on our own, and our ability to help others.
            Better to help them in their own country nit to bring them back.
            As I said Islam is a failed religion. It does not offer peace, and sanctuary, even to other Muslims. It is where we were back in the Middle Ages.

          • The people are not all from Muslim nations. Some are from Nigeria and sub-Sahara Africa. It’s a challenge knowing what to do, granted, but we can’t just turn a blind eye and especially so as the West built its wealth on resources from many of these nations.

    • CliveM

      Although in full, it’s right as far as it goes. We do also need to address how we stop them, humanely, coming over in the first place.

      A two pronged approach.

    • Inspector General

      They don’t belong in Europe. Bring them back to where they belong. They were born to it.

  • Old Blowers

    I have still to hear a sound explanation as to how these ‘poor and desperate’ types are finding the thousand squid to pay for passage from the hell hole that is Libya (I most certain haven’t got the odd thousand lying around to get me, Mrs B and offspring onto foreign shores). Perhaps the Arabic version of Wonga..Shekels? has stepped in offering short term loans payable on successful benefit claim!!

    • They sell every possession they have and families probably pool money to assist some in leaving.

      • Old Blowers

        They are young men by and large and not whole families as you suggest…Do look at the news coverage fellas. I know the RC like to seem holier and more cuddly than protestants but the facts don’t bear out your piteous grandstanding on an issue of national importance such as allowing people willy nilly into our land…WHO EXACTLY ARE THESE PEOPLE?? We know nothing and they tell nothing truthful about themselves or where they have come from..passports, official documents are a no no . Would an owner really let people into their property not knowing if they were a murderer, thief, rapist, pedophile, etc to live amongst their family and grandchildren..I think NOT!!!

        • Do calm down. This isn’t a matter for doctrinal differences. old chap. Besides, Jack suggested no such thing. Families do pool money to assist those who leave and it isn’t only young men, although to survive the journey from Nigeria and other countries, its more likely it will be young males.

          Italy opened the floodgates when it decriminalised illegal immigration and deployed its navy to save ‘illegal’ migrants crossing the narrow Sicilian channel in open boats from North Africa, bringing them to Italy and into the European Union. It came after 366 people drowned in a boat which caught fire and sank off the island of Lampedusa in 2013. The dead included a mother who had given birth during the voyage and was still attached to her newborn child when divers found their bodies trapped inside the sunken vessel.

          The policy change has acted as a green light to boat people and numbers have soared as chaos in Africa and the Middle East escalates. Italy’s boat people used to come from sub-Saharan Africa; but they now come from the Horn of Africa, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Iraq.
          Something has to be done. We can’t stand by an watch hundreds die in the seas whilst criminal gangs make money.

          • Old Blowers

            Jack..The west and Marxist numpties like the BBC cheered on the Arab spring (I said it was madness and the results that would follow on this blog) and then goaded them on towards action in Libya (I said it was madness and the results that would follow on this blog) that has led to the death of Gaddafi and the rise of IS.

            I said that allowing these muslim nations to be destabilised for whatever good/seemed reasonable reason would end in travesty and despair for all concerned. Why would anyone want to bring a threatening culture into it’s midst as we have..Should we have allowed tens of thousands of nazi believers into England because they wanted a life here rather than ravaged Germany..Would nazism integrate well in old blighty coz they eats drinks sings plays football like but only better than we do so it must be alright or would allowing migrant nazi’s in have shown, as His Grace says “‘a more excellent way‘ (1Cor 12:31ff): the new commandment of Jesus (Jn 13:34f); the revelation of the character of the one true God (1Jn 4:7f).”

            The west in general and it’s corrupt liberal politicians have themselves to blame and we seem to be seeing the reaping of the whirlwind coming our way..Then blow the traffickers boats up whilst in harbour or off the coastline before migrants get on them by drone strike..It ain’t rocket science.

            Blowers

            PS

            Happy Birthday, Your Majesty…May you live forever as the old saying/Zadok the Priest anthem goes.

          • Most Germans weren’t Nazis, Blowers. Jack doubts many of these refugees are militant Islamists. Many are Christians from Africa and the Middle East. He also acknowledges Europe cannot operate an open door to the world without causing social instability at home.

            Jack agrees the West has created much of this mayhem. This is why we have to sort it now. We’re inviting these poor souls to cross the seas and colluding with the trafficking of humans and thus these deaths. The Italian Navy have been tasked since 2013 with aiding their journeys to reduce the risks. And where would one send these people back too?

          • Old Blowers

            We’re inviting these poor souls to cross the seas??? WHERE.

          • When Italy’s left wing government declared in 2013 it was no longer an offence to enter their country illegally, in an effort to prevent further deaths at sea, they opened Europe to refugees looking to escape poverty and war and gave the green light to people smugglers. If Jack were living in the conditions these people are, he would attempt to cross the sea too in search of a better life.

          • dannybhoy

            “If Jack were living in the conditions these people are, he would attempt to cross the sea too in search of a better life.”
            An entirely different matter. So would I.
            But the inhabitants of ‘the promised land’ I’m aiming for would have to weigh up if giving me asylum is a good idea or a bad one.

          • Jack understands European leaders now have a ten point plan for solving the problems. What wonderful news. We can sleep easy in our beds tonight.

          • Old Blowers

            I really have to stop going back to these late night chats with you fella. You are a man of leisure now while old ernsty has problems to sort at the H O tomorrow *chuckles*

            nighty night old sport don’t let le frog mite bite

          • CliveM

            Oy, you cut and pasted that from the article in the Spectator I linked to!!

          • Ssshhhh … or ‘you know who’ will read this.

          • dannybhoy

            “Besides, Jack suggested no such thing.”

            Yes you did, you old humbug!

            “Happy Jack • 19 hours ago

            Justin Welby is quite correct in his analysis and in his position about how Europe should respond.”

          • Giving shelter to those fleeing famine, economic destitution and war is hardly “allowing people willy nilly into our land”.

          • dannybhoy

            And..
            ““Europe must take people in? This is what the EU foreign policy chief is saying, that all European countries must share the burden and respect human rights and dignity.”

            The Archbishop doesn’t demur for a nanosecond. “I think that is absolutely correct. All European countries – no one country can do it by itself. We can’t say this is one country’s responsibility – the one nearest. That’s not right. And this is nothing (unintelligible – ‘to do with’?) the European Union – I’m talking about countries right across the whole region. We need to share the burden. Of course we have to be
            aware of the impact of immigration on our own communities. But when people are drowning in the Mediterranean, the need, the misery that has driven them out of their own countries, is so extreme, so appalling, that Europe as a whole must rise up and seek to do what is right. It
            will be demanding, and that’s why the burden must be spread across the continent, and not taken by just one country or one area.”
            Not getting at you Jack, but by endorsing ArchBishhop Welby’s declaration you signed up to his solution, and I think it would be a recipe for disaster.
            (thinks)
            Does Linus have a big house? Could have a ready made family any time soon..

          • Jack still supports Justin Welby’s position.

          • dannybhoy

            That’s your considered opinion. My considered opinion is that we do more good by dealing with the problem on their territory not ours.

          • … agreed, but we’re not, are we?

          • dannybhoy

            Perhaps because the EU is unwilling to accept it’s their problem, not just Italy’s. Most countries don’t like to face up to serious problems. Remember how unprepared we were in 1939?
            Then they may be considering what the effects might be on their own immigrant populations if they start to get tough…

  • Old Blowers

    I have a solution to the problem of getting rid of the undesirables that loath our nation…We demand that they will have dual nationality and upon some disgusting acts done against the British people and their land and laws, the blighters are turfed off our islands and their offspring with them and the British nationality element revoked pronto.

    No migrants can enter old blighty without keeping up dual nationality and any offspring born here must have dual nationality as key to staying here.

    Any nation they come from that fails to recognise dual nationality immediately bars them from entry into our land and towards British citizenship. There always is that merd hole called France should they be that desperate at a ‘like for like’ move, with plenty of Le Linus types to offer croissants and Brie to vagrants. Bonjour et bienvenue as le frogs say. .

    Sorted!!! Not difficult when you put your mind to it.

    • Inspector General

      Well, it had to happen. A decent type like Blowers exasperated over our ‘new citizens’…

      You damn professional politicians, you’ve done this !!!

      • Old Blowers

        Dear fella

        The number of visa’s being requested from Libya for learning the english language as a university study is hilarious when you consider it is a failed state yet the ‘government’ guarantees they will pay all fees and living expenses for 2-3 years but they ALL want to study in old blighty old fruit and bring their families consisting of 5 children, as a minimum, over with them. Utterly shocking that they are even being awarded them!!!

        Outcome…study for a while then claim asylum for the whole brood as their lives will now be in danger should they go back, as they state they are the ‘wrong’ type of muslim in that country, you see.

        • Inspector General

          Vote UKIP, dear thing…

          • Old Blowers

            I am, dear boy.

          • Linus

            Great! Two votes fewer for the Conservatives. Labour in Number 10. The SNP calling the shots from Edinburgh. An open border policy and finally all those untidy refugee camps around Calais emptied. It’ll be a chance to give them a good spring clean while we wait for the next wave to arrive. Fresh bed linen, a chocolate on each pillow, an English phrase book and nice packed lunch for them to eat on the crossing…

          • Old Blowers

            Why don’t they have fireworks at the end of the day at Euro Disney?

            Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender to the tourists.

          • dannybhoy

            Danny bursts out laughing again.
            You can’t say that OB, there are lots of good brave French citizens!
            Linus probably knows some..

          • Old Blowers

            Dear Danny

            The French government just announced, after the recent Charlie Hebdo atrocity, that it is raising its terror alert level from Run to Hide.

            ps

            Presume Linus will keep bravely blogging from the darkest corner of the cellar of L’Open gay bar in Pariiieee

          • Old Blowers

            French people, they really give you the crepes.

          • Old Blowers

            With the tense stand off between Russia and the Ukraine, France’s president has today boldly announced an unconditional surrender on behalf of the French government and all it’s citizens, just in case!

          • Old Blowers

            Why does the French flag have Velcro on two of it’s colours?

            So the blue and red sections are easily removed during a time of war.

          • dannybhoy

            Naughty!

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            The French flag used to be all white under the Bourbon kings…saved a lot of time at Quebec….

          • Hi

            Ah so you are now gloating about the plight of Calais refugees. If I were a liberal minded Frenchman who comes onto an English blog, I’d be utterly ashamed of what looks like a third world shanty town on French soil and be urging my own government to look after them.

            This is what you’ve been saying, but what you really mean is that the British state should be solely responsible for this mess, whilst you give us your condescending attitudes all the time about bigotry and racism. Why doesn’t France fulfil its international obligations in respect of refugees and Why are the French quite happy to have shanty towns for these people, who are reliant on charity, rather than the state providing food, water, shelter and welfare? Or does your left wing attitude only apply when someone else pays ?

            Furthermore it’s interesting that these refugees don’t want to really be in France, but Britain. But then neither do rich French people, who’ve come to London to flee the excessive socialistic tax of the French state. And Jews leaving because of antisemitism. Yeah Britain is much more fab than France.

          • The Explorer

            You French are much better than the Brits at integrating immigrants. You’ve told us so. So why not integrate those in Calais? Keep them. Problem solved.

  • Malcolm Smith

    For those who are interested, here is a comment quoting extensively the opinion of Major-General James Molan, former chief of operations in Iraq, and Jean Raspail, famed author of The Camp of the Saints.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/europes_borders_fall/

    • The Explorer

      Many thanks. Hard hitting.

    • David

      It is a truthful, useful article, so many thanks.

    • dannybhoy

      I’d agree with what the man says and I would suggest that it is indeed,
      “Christian ideas gone mad”,(or perverted) as Chesterton said, or these depraved human rights,” that is so paralysing our Western governments.
      Our forbears resisted the invasion of Europe by the forces of Islam at the Battle of Tours 732.

      Today governments’ devotion to human rights and inclusion make it more likely that Western European civilisation will be swept away by a new invasion.

  • Mike Stallard

    This is all a result of the decay of America which, locked into the 1950s, has not been keeping up with the role they took from us as guardian of the smaller countries within the British Empire. If you go round, as President Obama did, telling people to start a revolution like the USA did in 1776, then they will. The dictators were only there courtesy USA money and arms, once that was removed – Bingo!
    Now we share the results of the ensuing anarchy – people being very badly hurt.
    I know three of these people. I like them. They are nice. They smile. They are the best of Africa. And, in their hurt, cynical eyes, I can see they are very, very grateful.

  • sarky

    Whenever I mention that this is no longer a christian country, I am quickly shouted down and called a parasite for enjoying the freedoms our christian heritage allows. Isn’t it ironic that it is the ‘evil’ secularists who are showing the most compassion and that those who profess christian values are showing a total disregard to the suffering currently playing out in front of us. Surely these values mean absolutely nothing if they are not extended to those in need?

    • Linus

      Read “Le camp des Saints” and you’ll understand how it works in the minds of the far right. The trick is to dehumanize the migrants. Think of them as “hungry and rapacious masses” rather than individual human beings. If you highlight their racial and cultural differences and think of them as incapable of human feeling, they’ll transform in your head into mindless animals that you can treat without compassion or feeling.

      “They’re not like us,” was probably what the Nazis said too.

      • sarky

        Having watched the pictures of dead children being carried out of the sea, I don’t understand how anyone could think like that, especially so called christians.

        • The Explorer

          The quickest way to end human suffering is for everyone to die as soon as possible. That was the Cathar position. It seems to me the conclusion from your outlook as well. The planet is headed for extinction anyway, so when the human race dies out doesn’t really matter, and the dead have no memory of their suffering.

          • sarky

            Right I see, as an atheist I want everyone to die. Bollocks. I , like most people, think that everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. And for the record, I don’t think we are heading for extinction, despite what your book says.

          • The Explorer

            Unless you believe in the eternity of matter, the Universe had a beginning and will have an end. It’s your book that says everyone is headed for extinction, not mine. Mine says we have eternal destinies. But I agree: we’re all going to die let’s live like pigs is not the only response to the atheist’s view of the human condition. The ship is sinking, but it need not be a floating hell before it disappears beneath the waves. But it is certainly the view taken by some.
            Some other thoughts.

            1. One of the survivors was a Bangladeshi. Maybe he was working in Libya, and had the option to return to Bangladesh but preferred the prospect of Europe. If he wasn’t working in Libya we really have problems. How did he get to be on the boat?

            2. If you hold out a hand to a drowning man, and he pulls you in and you drown too, then you may have shown compassion, but what else has been achieved? There have been situations at sea when the lifeboats have been full. Take on more – as compassion says you should – and you don’t save them: everybody sinks.

            3. Limitless compassion is humanist, not Christian. At some point, God calls, “Time!” Liberal Christianity says that everyone then goes to Heaven. But that’s not what Christ said.

          • sarky

            “Limitless compassion is humanist” – and we’re the bad ones? Glad I chose my side of the fence.

          • The Explorer

            Bertrand Russell said there was such a thing as false compassion. You save people from a famine, to enable them to die in the next famine. The answer is to remove the causes of famine: with wells, dams, better agriculture.
            Just keeping people alive exacerbates the famine problem: too many people for the food resources available. Nature has a ruthless way of solving that.

          • sarky

            Careful, you’re starting to sound like an evolutionist!

          • The Explorer

            Did I ever say I wasn’t? My problem with evolution is that it’s a cruel process.

          • sarky

            But at least the cruelty is a natural process and not because of some god.

          • The Explorer

            Exactly. The cruelty is part of the problem of evil. Darwin asked what sort of mind would come up with the ichneumon wasp laying its eggs in a paralysed live caterpillar. What about the animals that gore a wounded member of the herd to death? Excellent questions both.

            Christianity had observed that Nature was cruel, centuries before Darwin.

          • dannybhoy

            I don’t know about you, but that’s just one of the things I would like the Creator to explain one day…

          • sarky

            The best explanation is there is no creator and that evolution is a violent process. You will be lucky to get out of life alive dannybhoy.

          • dannybhoy

            Evolution only attempts to explain how life developed, not how or why it originated.
            I accept adaptation rather than evolution.
            Anyway, as “violent” is a moral judgment and in an accidental universe you would more accurately describe evolution as a meaningless process….

          • sarky

            Well it is really.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            That and Yvette Cooper…

          • dannybhoy

            Very good!

          • dannybhoy

            I agree.

            If you keep giving money to an alcoholic beggar he will keep on spending it on that which is slowly killing him.

            If you keep on giving food to a people who live a nomadic hand to mouth existence, you allow them to have more children.

            When the next famine occurs more children will die -unless that nomadic society starts storing food for the lean times.

            The Jewish Joseph in Genesis 4:33 knew that..

            “33 “Therefore, Pharaoh should look for a man both discreet and wise to put in charge of the land of Egypt. 34 Pharaoh should do this, and he should appoint supervisors over the land to receive a twenty percent tax on the produce of the land of Egypt during the seven years of abundance. 35 They should gather all the food produced during these good years coming up and set aside grain under the supervision of Pharaoh to be used for food in the cities, and they should store it. 36 This will be the land’s food supply for the seven years of famine that will come over the land of Egypt, so that the land will not perish as a result of the famine.”

          • dannybhoy

            Excellent.

          • Linus

            We won’t drown if we help refugees. To imply that we will is just more if your melodramatic catastrophe-mongering. We might be a bit less rich if we share some of our wealth with them, but nobody ever died from dispensing charity.

            But OK, let’s say you’re right and it’s wrong, wrong, wrong to help those in need when doing so might affect our own prosperity. All that does is prove that your Jesus was a madman and a liar.

            Be a Christian by all means, but if you denigrate your own messiah, don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

          • The Explorer

            In 2011, I saw a documentary about Lampedusa. The moment when the inhabitants of the island realised that they were outnumbered by the refugees was quite telling.

          • Linus

            Europe is not Lampedusa. Again you make a preposterous comparison and try to persuade others that the situation of a tiny island where the population would be outnumbered by the arrival of a couple of boatloads of refugees or even a decent sized cruise ship somehow foreshadows the entire population of Europe – more than 350 million – being swamped by a few boats crossing the Mediterranean.

            The underlying current of your remarks is racist. Africans and Arabs swarming over us like ants or locusts. It’s the fonds de commerce of every contemptible populist and demagogue whose sole aim is to hold on to white privilege and shut out the rest of the world to starve outside the walls of Fortress Europe. You see yourself as a Christian, eh? I doubt many others share that opinion.

          • The Explorer

            I said that the moment when the Lampedusans realised they were outnumbered was quite telling. I did not compare the Lampedusa situation to Europe’s as a whole – that lies in the future, and will not be determined purely by sea – although Lampedua is already a reality for the indigenous inhabitants of parts of European cities.

            The comparison with cruise ships is not really valid. The cruise ships are known about in advance, the numbers are controlled, and they bring in revenue. One Lampedusan did observe that if the migrant boats continued then the cruise ships wouldn’t. Horribly materialistic of him, but his livelihood depended on the outcome.

          • Linus

            Eventually we’ll become extinct. It’s unlikely the universe is eternal, so even if we evolve into something else, eventually we’ll go the way of all matter and dissipate away into nothing.

            But that’s billions of years away. In the meantime there’s lots to do and see and no immediate threat of extinction on the horizon.

            The make-believe religion of the Christians will die before humankind does. A billion years hence there’ll be no Basilica of St. Peter cluttering up the centre of Rome like an overdecorated and poorly cleaned municipal railway station. Who knows what plate tectonics will have done to that part of Italy by then? And what the descendants of the human race who live there (if they do) will look like?

            So eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. Some American scientists are working on rejuvenation techniques that look interesting and of course science fiction has long predicted cloned body replacement as a means of effective immortality, but eventually the universe will fade away and us with it, if not long before. So you’d better get used to the idea of oblivion. It’s going to come to us all.

          • sarky

            I’m totally at peace with oblivion Linus. However, quite fancy having my mind uploaded!!! Could cause a bit of chaos like in the recent Johnny Depp movie (can’t remember the name)

          • The Explorer

            If you’re going to have your mind uploaded, better do something about the memory banks before you do.

          • Linus

            Well you upload away, but even that can only a temporary measure. When all the atoms in the universe have decayed, what medium will store the data that makes up your personality?

            You’re heading for oblivion no matter what you do. We all are. We came from oblivion, apart from a few lucky individuals who lived previous lives as Egyptian princesses of course. One wonders why only princesses reincarnate and never toilet scrubbers or prostitutes, but as I’m a first timer with no memories of any previous life, I suppose such matters don’t concern me.

            No, all I know is that where I’m going has every chance of resembling where I came from, i.e. oblivion. There’s no proof to the contrary. So come sweet … no, not sweet, but rather absolutely neutral oblivion and take me when my time is up.

            Just not yet, that’s all…

          • The Explorer

            Asteroids? Likeliest explanation of what happened to the dinosaurs. They weren’t expecting it either.

            An asteroid might not wait billions of years. Asteroids are inconsiderate like that.

          • Linus

            Oooh that’s right, I forgot about the big bad bogeyasteroids. And there’s Nibiru too. And the sun could go nova. Or a nearby supermassive red giant could collapse and generate a gamma pulse that fries us all…

            So many ways to die! So little time! No, hang on a second … given that the likelihood of any of these events happening in my lifetime is infinitessimal, I think I’ll sleep just fine tonight. I don’t even have any progeny to worry about. If the asteroid falls a few hundred years from now, none of my DNA will be wiped out by it. Après moi le déluge ! And if you’re so worried about global catastrophe, you could always become a Cathar and learn to worship the idea of doom and destruction.

            You should seriously consider it. Given your personalty’s fascination with disaster, wrack and ruin, it sounds like just the faith for you.

          • The Explorer

            Ever read ‘The City of Dreadful Night’? That’s all about doom and destruction, and Thomson was an atheist. Mind you, he was Scottish. That might account for it.

            Being a Catha doesn’t appeal to me. The Parfaits were vegetarian.

          • Linus

            Aïe ! Vegetarians! No wonder Saint-Louis exterminated them. I probably would have too. I’m all for live and let live, but if a bunch of religious fanatics comes and digs up the pasture that cattle graze on and plants chick-peas and okra instead, desperate measures are called for!

            We’ll just have to find some other doomsday sect for you. How about Scientology? Or Seventh Day Adventist Millenial Pre-Tribulation Rapturism? Something that gives a bit of scope to your hysterical Chicken Little propensities. You need an audience when you’re rushing around flapping your wings and squawking about the end of the world, don’t you?

          • The Explorer

            Saying THAT the world will end is not he same as saying WHEN it will end. And anyway, if mainstream Christianity is doomed, why bother with a sect?
            I had a neighbour who volunteered to be a Special Constable. She lasted a week. Episode One: a traffic accident. She picked up a glove. There was a hand inside it. Episode Two: a man whose chickens were dying. A neighbour reported him for behaving suspiciously. A clue: Chicken Little wasn’t running because the sky was falling.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            It was Louis VIII not Louis IX…

          • The Explorer

            Don’t confuse Linus with the facts.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I know…it is like agitating a hornet’s nest with a stick. Such fun!

          • The Explorer

            Better not make Linus too angry. There’s a news item that killer hornets are headed for Britain. We don’t want him to follow suit.

          • Linus

            If you take your facts à l’anglaise, you’ll never want for moonshine. Read a proper history book written in France rather than the abbreviated and popularised ones written by your English “ladies who lunch”.

          • The Explorer

            If one takes Béziers as the main atrocity, it was before St Louis’ time. If you include Montsegur (partly self-inflicted by the Cathars) then you
            are quite right about his involvement. But he only completed what others had initiated.

          • Linus

            Sigh! It’s like talking to children…

            Yes, Louis VIII was king when the principle battles and massacres of the Albigensian Crusade took place. But he wasn’t king when the Cathars were finally exterminated. His son Louis IX, also known as Saint-Louis or Louis le Prud’homme, was king at that time.

            You do know what “exterminate” means, don’t you? It doesn’t mean “defeat” or even “vanquish”, both of which Louis VIII’s forces can be said to have done to the Cathars. It means “eradicate” and only Saint-Louis did that.

          • The Explorer

            ??

          • Linus

            One more time, before I get bored with repeating the facts to a wrong-headed child who refuses to acknowledge his mistake because he doesn’t want to lose face in front of his peers, Louis VIII did not exterminate the Cathars. His son Louis IX did.

            That’s the reality of history and no amount of squirming and trying to justify an erroneous claim on your part will change history.

            You spend most of your time on this blog making fantastic and erroneous claims, so I’m not surprised at the way you’re behaving. The overwhelming desire to always be right no matter what the facts say is characteristic of your kind of far right ego. But there comes a time when even the most overweening concept of self has to give way before the reality of a situation and admit defeat.

            This is that time. It has come and now there is nothing left to say. You were wrong and everyone can see that. Have the grace to take defeat on the chin and move on.

          • The Explorer

            “Here we go round the mulberry bush” is becoming a refrain. If we’re going to get pedantic, we ought to bring in Innocent III and Philippe II. Beziers happened on their watch. I actually never mentioned Louis VIII: Mrs Proudie did. Philippe started the extermination of the Cathars, Louis XVIII continued the process, Louis IX finished the job.

          • Linus

            That’s right, blame the lady. Very chivalrous of you. You take up her cause and then drop her like a hot potato when you realise you can’t win.

            “Louis XVIII continued the process…”

            Interesting this level of pride that just can’t admit defeat. By all means try to argue yourself out of the hole you’ve jumped into, but do check your dates before making more preposterous claims otherwise you just risk digging yourself in deeper.

            Louis XVIII reigned in the 19th century, not the 13th. So unless you want to argue that your imaginary god somehow transported the Cathars through time to post-Napoléonic France for Louis XVIII to persecute them for a bit, and then zapped them back to the late 1220s for Saint-Louis to finish the job, your argument doesn’t really stand up. But of course your imaginary god can do anything, can’t he? Even alter time and space to make your disjointed and absurd arguments come true.

            Ah well, you can’t argue with a zealot…

          • The Explorer

            Ockham’s razor: look for the simple explanation. Louis VIII, Louis IX. Possibility of typing error?
            Mrs Proudie mentioned Louis VIII. I didn’t. Where’s the blame in a factual statement?

          • Linus

            You championed a lady’s erroneous statement and are now beating a retreat crying “Don’t blame me! Blame the old baggage!”

            Tsk, tsk! Sir Galahad must be spinning in his grave.

            And of course I did consider the possibility of a typo, but given your flights of fancy and exaggerated claims elsewhere on this blog, I decided it was far more likely you meant what you wrote.

            It has a very Explorer ring to it as a story. The Cathars possessing the Holy Tardis of Antioch and using it to escape from the persecution unleashed on them by the first king of France, and by awful luck (or divine intervention) rematerializing in front of an ultra-conservative Louis XVIII, and only just escaping with their lives to find themselves back in the clutches of Auguste’s grandson. It has all the elements of an Explorer classic. Equal doses of superstition, unwarranted conclusions, exaggeration and implausibility. No, the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that there was no typo at all and that this is just another example of you trying to wriggle out of an indefensible position while placing the blame on someone or something else…

          • The Explorer

            Mulberry bush syndrome. You ought to get it seen to.

          • Linus

            The Albigensian Crusade was fought over a period of 20 years from 1209 to 1229. Saint-Louis acceded to the throne in 1226. I’ll let you do the sum, gente dame. Or didn’t they not (sic) teach arithmetic to bishops’ wives in your era?

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            They most certainly are! They keep Mr Slope awake at night…but I have procured some ointment so things should improve soon.

          • The Explorer

            Provided he’s not relying on you to apply it.

          • dannybhoy

            “So eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.”

            You know your Bible Linus, I’ll give you that..

            32 If my fighting with “wild beasts” in Ephesus was done merely on a human basis, what do I gain by it? If dead people are not raised, we might as well live by the saying, “Let’s eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
            1 Corinthians 15 Complete Jewish Bible

      • The Explorer

        “They’re not like us.” That’s difference for you. After all, difference isn’t bad. It just is.

      • dannybhoy

        Who wants to dehumanize anybody -let alone migrants?
        Compassion is not just an emotional response, it also involves looking at the whole situation, what needs to be done in the short term, the medium term and a solution for the longer term.
        There is no doubt that Western intereference in the affairs of Islamic nations has made things worse, not better. But that is not the whole story is it. Saddam Hussein did totally evil things to his enemies, and all Islamic regimes have civil and religious police forces tasked with dealing with the enemies of the State.
        What is happening in Africa with Boko Haram, Al Shabaab et al is not the direct fault of the West but has more to do with Islamic sectarian unrest as well as anti Christian anti minority persecution.
        So we have to not only look at what is best for these refugees, but what is the best way for us to help them without causing ourselves more problems than we already have.

        • Linus

          How extremely gracious and patrician of you. The architects of apartheid were probably every bii as Olympian in their world view. “Let’s find a solution for these troublesome migrants,” I’m sure they said. “One that keeps them alive to salve our Christian consciences (and ensure a steady supply of cheap domestic labour when we need it) but lets us keep the lion’s share of all the wealth and power.”

          Their solution was the homelands. It worked for as long as the blacks stayed uneducated and docile. Then it didn’t work any more.

          We’re long past the point where you can trap whole populations where it’s convenient for you. They have minds of their own and two legs to carry them where they want to go. They’re on the move and feeble measures dreamed up by powerless blog readers won’t stop them.

          Go ahead and set the world to rights with solutions that weren’t effective in an era when Britain had real power, and are even less so today. Nobody can fix these failed states from the outside. Only their own people can do it, but as most of them are voting with their feet, you’re going to have to deal with them in your country, not theirs.

          • Hi Linus

            You know the French government -France is no more a super power than Britain- has been active in sending troops into north Africa, to its own former colonies, not just in Libya, so if any country is trying to deal with failed states it is the french gov’t.

          • The Explorer

            Ever seen the Voortrekker Monument? Rugged, yes. Olympian, no. The architects of apartheid had The Washing of the Spears, the murder of Piet Retief, the town of Weenen (‘Weeping’), and the Battle of Blood River in their consciousness.

            They did the maths. Ten blacks for every white. Give the blacks the vote, and what happens to the whites? Today there are 450 000 whites living below the poverty line in South Africa. The million who could do so, left the country.

          • dannybhoy

            That’s two Linus compliments in two days..

            I do “honied words,” and can be both “gracious and patrician.

            Thank you Linus. Even though I know you don’t mean it, it’s better than being “bigoted and judgmental..”

            But Linus dear chap, you yourself often give your opinion on how life could be better – especially but not exclusively- for homosexuals. You often contribute very positively here on political issues and explain why this is right or this is wrong.

            Do I call you patrician or gracious when you do?

            I think not.

            Remember that I make a distinction between my life as a Christian and my obligations as a citizen. I have to weigh up what my responsibilities are in times of peace and times of war. My father served his country during the second world war and ’til his dying day he had nightmares about what he saw and had to do as a consequence of the ambitions of that evil maniac Hitler.

            Now was my father being “gracious and patrician” in doing his duty fighting for the freedom of his nation?

            I think not.

            If this emphasis on human rights, diversity and inclusion existed in 1939 what do you think would have been the outcome then?

            You think you’d still be a free homosexual under Der Fuehrer?

            Ich denke nicht.

            You think there’s no chance of you being stoned to death or thrown off a very high building if IS and Shari’ah took over in France??

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-fighters-throw-another-gay-man-off-a-tower–and-stone-him-to-death-when-he-survives-fall-10084618.html

            Wise up.

          • Linus

            More English linguistic ignorance rears its ugly head.

            Under DEM Führer, poor benighted Engländer. Have you never heard of the dative case?

            No, of course you haven’t. Silly of me to think you might have. Ignorance like yours is founded in a level of insularity rarely encountered here on the Continent.

            But moving on … when your father was fighting the Germans he was defending his country against armed aggression by a foreign power. But these refugees are not a foreign power. They’re private individuals seeking a better life for themselves. And yet you believe you have the right to tell them to turn back. What gives you that right? Your patrician status as a citizen of a free country? And who will listen to you, do you think?

            In the end, it doesn’t really matter. No matter what right you think you have to dictate to people where they can and can’t live, they’re not going to listen to you. They’re coming to live in Europe and no amount of Ukip-style rhetoric will make them turn their boats around and head back home.

            So vent away on blogs like this one all you like. No political party capable of being elected can or will stem the tide. You’d be better off taking steps to figure out how to live with the new arrivals rather than screeching about how they should be sent home. Learn a few words of Somali or Arabic so you can communicate with your new neighbours. Welcome your brothers like a Christian should rather than squawking about what’s yours and what’s being taken away from you. A real Christian shares his wealth with the needy. Why won’t you?

          • dannybhoy

            Thanks for the linguistic correction, but the point remains doesn’t it.

            “But these refugees are not a foreign power. They’re private individuals seeking a better life for themselves.”
            And then?
            Once they’ve recovered
            Once they have housing,
            And regular food
            And healthcare..
            And built a community
            And a place to worship;

            And then?
            You think this time it will all be different?
            No more “Je suis Charlie”
            No more attacks on offices,
            No more attacks on Jews?
            No more fear and blood?

            Like I said Linus,
            “Wise up.”

          • Linus

            We live in a big bad world full of unhappy people who all want to take their frustration and anger out on someone. The gay community knows this only too well. We’ve been targeted before and we’ll be targeted again.

            The difference between the past and the present moving forwards is that we’ve at long last wrung an admission of equality out of the State. Future anti-gay persecutions will be treated as serious crimes rather than the State simply turning a blind eye to them.

            Yes, immigration will bring its share of radical homophobic bigotry with it. There’s no way around that. The people who are arriving come from deeply homophobic societies and won’t suddenly start to love us just because the State tells them we’re their equals.

            There will certainly be instances of anti-gay discrimination and even violence from immigrant communities. But this will not go unpunished. And those who want to abide by the law will modify their behaviour and refrain from attacking us. After all, Muslim immigrants don’t ransack churches and kill Christians here in Europe, even though their religion can be interpreted as requiring them to do this. They realise that if they try then the State will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

            So I wouldn’t count on a wave of homophobic attacks following in the wake of the latest wave of mass immigration. There will probably be some kind of increase, but the authorities will deal with it.

            Vicious old bigots such as you and Sad Jack count on the authorities either not trying or not being able to protect us. In Sad Jack’s case that translates to a certain resignation to the idea of mass immigration. He sees it as the lesser of two evils. If these immigrants exterminate all the gays, they’ll be doing God’s work and then Sad Jack will be free to convert them at his leisure. Because of course a Muslim can always be subverted as his brain is already controlled by superstition, whereas gays are beyond redemption and the only solution is to get rid of us. If Sad Jack can see this happen without dirtying his own hands, he’ll be over the moon. So he welcomes these migrants with open arms.

            Of course he’s counting on inaction from the State in order to let this happen. He seems to think the UK is ruled by some kind of latter day Catherine de Médicis who will simply look the other way while a new Saint-Barthélemy is unleashed on the gay community. I think he’s wrong and will be sorely disappointed when he finds himself having to deal with two strong minorities determined to sideline his fundamentalist agenda and a government that acts to prevent the sort of violence he’s counting on. But old bigots live in hope, so perhaps it’s best to leave him to his bloody fantasies until senile dementia completes its work on that decaying brain of his.

            You on the other hand, as you claim to love the gays so much, you should be out there lobbying the government for firm measures to protect us from homophobic violence. But you’re not, are you? Handsome is as handsome does. You’re really not very handsome, are you?

          • dannybhoy

            Anyone that knows me, here or any other blog, in my neighbourhood in my church knows that I don’t believe in bullying -homophobic or other wise.
            I look for ways in which gays can interact with Christians and Christians can understand life from a gay perspective and be supportive without condoning the life style.
            Can’t say fairer than that, now can I?

            ps.
            My wife adores me and old ladies swoon….

          • Linus

            “Be supportive without condoning the lifestyle…”

            In other words, don a face mask and protective clothing while you dole out good advice and fake compassion to those sick perverts, eh?

            Something tells me they’re probably not beating your door down. Unless you really are as gorgeous as you seem to think you are, in which case perhaps while you’re trying to convert them, they have similar plans.

            Of course you’re in no danger. Your devotion to the Lord will protect you from any danger just like it protects any Christian man who chooses to minister to the perverts. Ted Haggard, Lonnie Latham, Roy Clements, George Alan Rekers and Keith O’Brien are just a few shining examples of how holiness protects you against sin. Oh no, sorry … I mean how holiness DOESN’T protect you against sin…

            Careful there or that adoring wife of yours may soon be weeping into her communion wine.

          • dannybhoy

            Linus, you know as a youngster at boarding school I had awful eczema all over, but especially on my arms and legs.
            The attitudes and comments of other boys of course heightened the stress and made life pretty miserable some term times. “Scab” was quite a common name chucked my way. I wasn’t even allowed to do swimming as the chlorine made it worse..
            For years afterwards even when the eczema went away, I remained sensitive to that word whenever I heard it. Now I would say that experience made me sensitive to other people and what they were going through. I think it’s called being empathetic.
            I suppose I could have gone the other way and become bitter or suspicious of people’s motives, but… I didn’t.

          • Pubcrawler

            “After all, Muslim immigrants don’t ransack churches and kill Christians here in Europe”

            Yeah?

            From Italy just in January of this year..

            New Year’s Day, attack on Santa Maria Assunta in Cles,
            Trentino
            http://www.secoloditalia.it/2015/01/inneggiando-in-arabo/

            January 9, man attacked while praying in the chapel of St.
            Barnabas in Perugia

            “The first thing they did was rip the photo from his
            hands. Next they unleashed their hatred against the image of the Virgin Mary. They broke the statue to pieces and then urinated on it.”
            http://www.alertadigital.com/2015/01/14/perugia-cinco-inmigrantes-destruyen-una-imagen-de-la-virgen-maria-y-orinan-sobre-los-restos/

            January 17, a crucifix was destroyed in Cinisello Balsamo, a municipality in the Province of Milan:
            http://www.nocristianofobia.org/gesto-sacrilego-a-cinisello-balsamo-distrutto-un-crocifisso-e-rivolta-popolare/

            Not quite on the scale of IS, I grant you, but give it time and numbers. . .

          • Linus

            Taking isolated incidents and blowing them up into overwhelming and irresistible trends is more the Explorer and Anton’s style, isn’t it?

            If everyone on this blog is going to sprout feathers and start rushing about flapping their wings and squawking about how the sky is falling, things will get pretty noisy around here.

            Ah well, no doubt one of the boys who cry wolf will manage to scare the poultry into shocked silence. Anything for a bit of peace…

          • The Explorer

            Linus old ostrich,
            I heard my name.
            Well, there were the London and Madrid bombings. They killed quite a lot of people. An Islamic apologist on TV pointed out that the Muslims who died would be okay, and the rest deserved it for not being Muslims. There was the car bomb in 2007 that failed to detonate. .Since it was outside a nightclub, and specifically targeting slag culture, one could argue that Christians were not involved, except that in all three incidents Westerners were erroneously conflated with Christians in the Islamic mind.
            There were the five churches ransacked in Holland in the wake of the Theo van Gogh murder. There was Ulrich Vogel driven out of Tingbjerg Church in Copenhagen.
            Isolated incidents, sure. I am not citing them as evidence of an overwhelming and irresistible trends; merely as correctives to the inaccurate assertion that Muslims don’t ransack churches and kill Christians here in Europe. In France, I grant you, Jews have been far more of a target than Christians. The tally is such by now that it would probably be a head-in-the-sand attitude to call them isolated.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Of course the French ransacked their own churches back in 1789…excitable lot, eh?

          • dannybhoy

            What does ‘execrable’ mean, Mrs. Proudie?

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I’m not sure dear boy, I wrote excitable …

          • The Explorer

            If a British tourist entered your Parisian property (or took over whichever one happened to be vacant at the time) and proposed to stay, one can only assume you would concur. What right would you have to tell him to turn back?
            You might cite your rights as a private property owner. If you wouldn’t, I certainly would if the same thing happened to me. So does what applies to individuals also apply to nations? Do nations have any say over who lives within their borders? If not, let’s abolish the borders, and all those who control those borders. You could stop being French, and become a citizen of the world, for all the world would be there. Or move to some of the lovely empty space vacated by all those who had moved to France.

          • Linus

            Ah yes, more exaggerated and hysterical comparisons from the keyboard of the usual suspect.

            Private property rights have nothing to do with citizenship. A country is not the private property of its citizens. The proof of this is that any foreigner can buy property in Britain. You own your property whether you’re British or not, so British citizens do not own Britain.

            That being the case, they don’t enjoy exclusive rights over it. Foreigners can come and live and work and buy property in Britain just as they can in any Western country. You can’t keep them out because our economies rely on the flow of international capital. If foreigners don’t invest in Britain, Britain’s economy goes down the pan.

            This is one of our major problems here in France. Government policies dissuade foreign investors from coming here and funding French enterprise, which has led to a stalling economy and rocketing unemployment. And yet any foreigner can buy property in France. It’s just that the punitive taxation system dissuades them from doing so.

            The price of keeping foreigners out is a tanking economy. And knowing how attached the British are to their money, I doubt you’ll be taking any measures to restrict capital flow into your country any time soon.

            More immigrants will come bringing more capital with them and your economy will do well out of it. But you want to cut your nose off to spite your face. Out with immigrants! More jobs for the British! Only there won’t be any jobs without immigrants because there’ll be little or no liquidity in your economy, just like here in France.

            No European nation with the possible exception of Norway is in Australia’s enviable position of having a larder full of resources to hawk to the highest bidder and attract foreign cash without needing the foreigners themselves. The rest of us have to deal with mixed economies, which means wealth created by people rather than things you dig out of the ground.

            Don’t let the people in, doom your economy to stagnation. It’s as simple as that.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            You have problems in France? Well…who would have thought it…

          • dannybhoy

            Good afternoon Mrs. Proudie!
            Welcome back. Your wit and matronly wisdom have been sorely missed…

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Ah thank you dear dannybhoy…I have been on holiday touring the cathedral towns of England with my Lord the Bishop and his chaplain, Mr Slope. We didn’t bother with Leicester…

          • dannybhoy

            I can understand that. Stone throwing is a distinct possibility..

          • The Explorer

            Any words of wisdom about the Israeli fence, and death statistics before and after?

          • Linus

            Israel is under real attack by credible enemies whose stated aim is the destruction of the Jewish State. The country is surrounded by well-equipped nations that could conceivably muster enough force to wipe it off the map. The Israelis have no choice but to be vigilant. The paranoia and fear of catastrophe that occupy your mind are realities for them.

            Europe on the other hand is “threatened” by a motley crew of few hundred tea-cosy wearing fanatics with three pea shooters and a couple of machetes between them.

            Quick! Let’s all run for the hills! The IS is coming to town and with two Kalashnikovs and a stern thrust of their righteous beards, Paris and London will burn and millions will die!

            Aïe ! C’est la fin du monde !!!

          • The Explorer

            Yes, I wasn’t aware I was making a comparison between Israel and Europe. Where did I say so? In the light of your questions to Dannybhoy about what right we have to dictate to people where they can or can’t live, I wanted your view on the legitimacy of a fence to do exactly that. Yes if the nation is under threat; no if it isn’t. That, as I understand it, is your answer.

            As for a few hundred fanatics, if only you were right. In the latest disaster, a lot were locked in the hold. There may have been 940 aboard. Between January and April 2015, over 1 600 migrants were drowned. In 2011, over 48 000 arrived in Lampedusa. By 2014, that figure had risen to 220 000. This year, on current trends, over 500 000 are expected.

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Who is this Des Saints and why is he camp?

        • The Explorer

          Malcolm Smith’s link is well worth a read. The title Linus is citing is from ‘Revelation’ 20:9. (Sorry to butt in, but I suspect Linus might be above responding.)

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Thank you Mr Explorer, I shall follow the link as you suggest.

        • Linus

          Oh ptdr, très drôle, gente dame.

          I don’t entirely approve of bilingual jeux de mots, but this one shows a remarkably fresh wit for a lady who must be at least a century past her sell-by date, so brava!

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            You Gallic charmer you!

          • Inspector General

            Slimy bugger, isn’t he, Mrs P. He’s probably after your purse, you know…

          • dannybhoy

            Mrs Proudie is held in affection by many here, Linus.
            Grace and charm abounding..

          • Linus

            I hope she’s not held in affection by too many here. Wouldn’t want to wear the old gell out now, would you?

            Unless Mrs Proudie is speaking to us through a rift in time, she must be at least 150 years old you know. Given that Victorian ladies didn’t have too many effective skin care options available to them, she therefore has to be in a pretty dessicated state by now. So don’t clutch her too tightly to your breast or she may crumble away to dust…

          • dannybhoy

            Ladies like Mrs Proudie don’t dessicate Linus!
            They gently fade, but the twinkle in the eye and the delightfully humorous observations remain. Mrs Proudie is one of the true characters on this blog.
            A vintage Rolls Royce alongside your tinny old Citroen 2CV… 😉

          • Linus

            A vintage Rolls-Royce?

            What, you mean a tempermental old tank with a massive nose, a HUGE arse and an unquenchable thirst for spirituous substances that makes her probibitively expensive to maintain and run?

            Boy oh boy, so much for Arthurian legends of English chivalry…

          • dannybhoy

            Cochon grossier!
            A real lady will always have high maintenance costs..

            I mean this…

            https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/360850988864918517/

            Interesting how your usual vitriol tones down when we’re discussing a lady….

      • Anton

        I’ve read it and a horrible book it is too. The trouble is that both sides, neither of them Christian, are unpleasant and sinful. Just like real life.

        • Linus

          What, and Christians are virtuous and never sin?

          Tell that to the Cathars. And the Huguenots. And the Jews. And all the other minorities that Christians have slaughtered, tortured, imprisoned and driven from their homes in their frenzied desire to serve their God.

          Tell that to the parents of the gay kids who kill themselves rather than face the prospect of a life lived alone to satisfy the dictates of the Church.

          You Christians are the worst sinners of the lot, even according to your own standards. Even I thank your imaginary god you’re no longer in control of our lives.

          • Anton

            I wish you had included the Lollards and the Waldenses, because they were the real Christians in mediaeval times – the ones who lived as Jesus had and were persecuted for it by “the world” (ie the culture). The difference in the mediaeval era was that those doing the persecuting claimed to be Christians. But Jesus said that only those who took his word to heart, rather than those who merely spoke it, were his.

    • The Explorer

      Read Malcolm Smith’s link as well, to balance against Linus’ opinions.

  • len

    I think the real’ dehumanising process’ is amongst the immigrants themselves( or at least part of them) I refer of course to the Muslim immigrants throwing the Christian immigrants overboard and drowning them .Of course beheading Christians is just as inhuman but perhaps the Muslims had left their machetes behind?

  • Inspector General

    If any of His Grace’s communicants were wondering how 800 people voluntarily dangerously overcrowded a vessel of no size, here’s the answer. A tiny IQ. You can’t blame the people for it. After millennia of your forebears scratching a living from the soil, you don’t need an IQ. But you can blame them for their greed and avarice at wanting a better life they couldn’t possibly live to. How far are they going to get in a Europe that will brand them as useless imbeciles. They will have to be kept, of course, as what they are capable of doing does not extend beyond portering and labouring.

    The adults won’t mind that, but what of the young. IQ is largely inherited. Young black immigrant men are going to turn to wrong doing very early. Gangs and crime and violence. The girls aren’t much better. Thieving and prostitution come to mind. All survival strategies, of course. Small IQs also help when it comes to nasty allegiances like Islam. If they don’t arrive as muslims, they risk being converted in prison. Remember, this applies not just to the children extant, but to the generations yet unborn.

    To better their lives, they would quite happily wreck ours, and burden us with their existence. Don’t forget that…

    • dannybhoy

      Baldly put, Inspector. Somewhat exaggerated perhaps, as we have plenty of problem kids of our own. but when one looks at what has been happening in our country over the last forty years or so your summation is broadly true.
      To my mind it is more the dynamics of community than it is individuals. A person may make a real effort to better themselves, but often opposition comes from within their own community. “Educating Rita” springs to mind.
      I just don’t believe multiculturalism works.

  • Demon Teddy Bear

    Europe could start making a better world by seizing this odious state-appointed hypocrite and handing him over to ISIS for their kind attention.

    We have no moral duty to resettle the world in this island. We have no moral obligation to stop people in countries we do not rule making arses of themselves, killing each other or themselves, etc etc. We gave up the empire business, remember.

    I do wish someone would kick the living daylights out of this smug git.

  • Anton

    His Grace’s words above are based on the supposition that these are genuine refugees rather than economic would-be migrants. If they are genuine refugees then I agree with every word. But if not then I agree with David Cameron that to participate in rescuing will simply encourage more and ultimately increase the death toll. And I would, at least, like to ask which category they are.

  • Inspector General

    One of the presumed lost 800 had an aunt in Cheltenham. Must be an aunt by marriage, as your man was jet black and she’s white…

    This is what she said (BBC regional news site)…

    Mrs Sey said her nephew’s decision to travel to the UK from his home was “a desperate way out”. She said her nephew was a “promising” football player who was relatively well off in his own country, but he longed for a better life in Europe. Mr Sey left Gambia with a friend by taking a boat from the capital Banjul to Guinea. The pair then crossed the Sahara to Libya. However the friend stayed in Libya when Mr Sey boarded the fishing boat which subsequently capsized on Sunday. Mrs Sey blamed the “division of money in this world”, and said it is “human nature to want to better yourself”. “Can anyone honestly say that they wouldn’t put themselves through something like this if they thought they would get something better at the end?”

    She’s angry, really angry. So angry in fact that she seems unable to understand the inappropriate use of the phrase “a desperate way out” when used in reference to a chancer looking for more, illegally…

    Oh yes, “Jessica Sey from Cheltenham said her 21-year-old nephew’s family “will never get justice” and more must be done to educate migrants of the risks.” 6 months in a detention camp and then return to Libya would be a marvellous education, AND be sufficient justice, what!

    Anyway chaps, time to re-assess what’s REALLY going on re the migration, don’t you think?

  • Anton

    The Italian PM has described this as the “slave trade of the 21st century”. That is nonsense for the slaves did not pay to be enslaved.

    In the 16, 17 and 18th centuries Islamic raiders decimated the European coastline of the Mediterranean. Italians even lost their reputation as seafarers because coastal villages dwindled away under the radis and their threat. It is estimated that some 2 million Europeans were carried south into slavery, a number some 10 times smaller than than the appalling transatlantic slave trade run by Europeans, but Europe eventually abolished it for moral/spiritual reasons whereas it is still part of Islam today, because the quran licenses it.