Charlie Hebdo - Friday prayers2
Extremism

We need a Prophetology to dispel the myths of Islam

 

Thousands upon thousands of Muslims were appalled by the Charlie Hebdo massacre, and deeply shocked by the subsequent carnage at a kosher supermarket in Paris. Newspapers and TV channels are crammed with images of consolation and words of unequivocal condemnation. Islam means peace, they cry: there is no compulsion in religion. And yet thousands upon thousands of Muslims are satisfied in their minds that the cartoonists who insulted Mohammed got what they deserved, more or less, and those Jews got what was coming to them as well, because.. well, they’re Jews, and it’s all basically Israel’s fault. And between these two neighbouring houses of Islam – the cottage on the left, where jihad means prayer, humility, service and sacrifice, and the mansion on the right, where jihad means defence, assertion, dominance and bloodshed – is a narrow alleyway of Prophetology, shrouded in unchartered quranic conceptions of Mohammedophany and nebulous notions of hadithic holiness.

And unchartered and nebulous they largely remain, for questioning the nature and person of Mohammed is not a developed field of Islamic theological study. Nor can it be, while historical inquiry is met with threats; theological questioning elicits allegations of ‘Islamophobia’; and literary inquest or artistic taunting gets you stabbed, shot or beheaded.

This is the 21st century – the modern age of sophistication, civilisation and enlightenment. It is time for all reasoned and reasonable Muslims to refute those of the Ummah for whom every portrayal of their prophet is blasphemous, and every scholarly question about the historicity and authenticity of Mohammed is offensive. It is not all, by any means. But it is plainly thousands upon thousands. And they’re not all living in tents in the middle of an Iraqi desert: they dwell amongst us, even in the enlightened Home Counties. We need urgently to develop a ‘Prophetology’ – after the fashion of our centuries of Christology – in order to investigate the true nature and person of Mohammed as recorded in the Qur’an and Hadith(s). Then we might discover, or come nearer to understanding – as we have with Jesus – who Mohammed was; to whom he was born and how he was raised; what manner of prophet he claimed to be; what his relationship was with Allah; and what he might mean not only to the diverse ‘Islamic world’ but to non-Muslims the world over.

Did Mohammed laugh? Could he crack a joke? Is there any evidence that he had a sense of humour?

If so, wouldn’t he simply smirk at Charlie Hebdo’s crass cartoons? Wouldn’t he pity the shallowness of their spiritual comprehension and tell them to grow up, and then get on with preaching his message of Allah and the way salvation through submission? Is this the real prophet? Are the Islamist thugs and Jihadi hordes emulating another prophet; a different prophet; a false prophet?

There is an unbridgeable gulf between the God who laughs (Ps 2:4) and the one in whom there is no humour. According to Islamic scholars, Zabur is the holy book of King David – the Book of Psalms in the Old Testament. Like Jewish and Christian theologians over the centuries, they acknowledge the anthropomorphisation of God, attributing to the divine nature distinctly human emotions. God thinks, feels, weeps and laughs. If God has a sense of humour, why is His prophet so menacingly po-faced?

The Charlie Hebdo slaughter and the protests over the Danish cartoons which satirised Mohammad, combined with the almost-daily stories of Muslims criticising the more frivolous aspects of Western culture, convey the distinct impression that Islam and comedy are incompatible – that farce, fun, jokes and satire are haram. It is disquieting for many Muslims that those who dare to express humour or mock their own religion are often derided by those of their co-religionists who hold to the Ayatollah Khomeini school of Islam. He once said: “An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humour in Islam. There is no fun in Islam.”

It is time for Muslims to laugh in the face of this, and to greet cartoonists, comedians and Merry-Abduls not with scorn, hatred and bloody threats, but with an alcohol-free beer, a joke and a smile. If Christology has made Jesus better known to diverse humanity and a divided Church, Prophetology could do the same for Mohammed and his disparate mosques. If we concentrate on categories of imagined thought, weighing their historical interdependence and the confines of their cultural structures, we might even dispel the myths (or confirm the realities) of whichever spiritual or socio-political school of Islam propagates Mohammed’s true message.

  • Dominic Stockford

    What happens when your prophetology shows him to be a ruthless murdering warlord, as is likely?

  • Dreadnaught

    Islam and Sharia are incompatible with democracy and freedom. Only Muslims can reform Islam and until they do (if never) it has to be resisted as much as any other invasion.

  • Inspector General

    Cranmer, dear fellow, one is surprised at you. What you are suggesting is futile. You see, the Inspector of late read about two poets who mocked Mohamed. Did he laugh at them, did he sit them down and wag his finger at them. No, he had them killed. That’s the end of that then.

    Racial profiling is everything. Mohamed was an Arab. We’ve seen what Arabs do, to non Arabs and to other Arabs. They’re doing it now, and they did the same when he was alive. There is no hope for Islam, because if there is, then there’s no hope for us.

    Now, abandon you ‘peace and reconciliation’ attempt, and stop trying to tell muslims how to be muslims. Just accept what is and will always be.

    Tally ho !

    • hope4all

      you making up stories about two poets is quite silly.there are more non-arab muslims than arab.Muhammed’s last sermon specifically stated that an arab is not superior to a non-arab.no effort must be spared for peace and recon ciliation.you go arch! i am a muslim and proud of it…and am proud of every decent peace-loving human being.

      • Inspector General

        One can assure you he did not make up the story of the two poets. Having said that, and as you object, the Inspector is concerned that he may have unintentionally spread a falsehood. Something he is greatly concerned about as to hold false witness on another, even the Prophet, is strictly forbidden in the Bible. He therefore hopes that some more knowledgeable fellow can shed more light on those two if they are historical figures.

        • hope4all

          so why did you post the crap story if you are in doubt.
          it’s idiotic comments like these about people and their beliefs that cause all the problems.live and let live.

          • Inspector General

            Seems to be something in it, if you follow the above link from our redoubtable pub crawling correspondent…

            Anyway, chin up, old man. Stalin’s favourite English language saying was “You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs”. That will tell you what you need to know about Stalin, and one suspects, the Prophet too.

          • Pubcrawler

            There’s a lot more information and discussion, including refutation of the Muslim attempts at rebuttal, here:

            http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm

            Make sure you’re sitting comfortably, pour a sizeable single malt to sustain you, there’s a lot to get through.

          • Uncle Brian

            “Live and let live,” hope4all? You could get your silly head sawn off for preaching that heresy.

        • Pubcrawler

          Here’s Wikipedia on the matter. Make of it what you will

          http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Asma'_bint_Marwan

      • Johnny Rottenborough

        @ hope4all—The killing of the poets Abu Afak and Asma bint Marwan is recorded by Ibn Ishaq, pages 675 and 676 in A Guillaume’s book The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah.

        The British Muslim organization Al-Ghurabaa, now apparently disbanded, issued a statement in the wake of the Danish Mohammed cartoons: ‘Ka’ab ibn Ashraf was assassinated by Muhammad ibn Maslamah for harming the Messenger Muhammad (saw) by his words, Abu Raafi’ was killed by Abu Ateeq as the Messenger ordered in the most evil of ways for swearing at the prophet, Khalid bin Sufayaan was killed by Abdullah bin Anees who cut off his head and brought it to the prophet for harming the Messenger Muhammad (saw) by his insults, Al-Asmaa bintu Marwaan was killed by Umayr bin Adi’ al-Khatmi, a blind man, for writing poetry against the prophet and insulting him in it, Al-Aswad al-Ansi was killed by Fairuz al-Daylami and his family for insulting the Messenger Muhammad (saw) and claiming to be a prophet himself. This is the judgement of Islam upon those who violate, dishonour and insult the Messenger Muhammad (saw).’

      • Shadrach Fire

        Why are you a Muslim? Were you born that way? I doubt if you converted to it.

      • dannybhoy

        You are proud to be a Muslim?
        Good for you! I have nothing against Muslims who are willing to live in peace (the Christian concept of peace that is). In fact many Muslims do just that here, and enjoy the benefits offered by our nation. No one is attacking them or blowing up their homes or mosques. They have the same benefits I do as an Englishman.
        I respect their faith even if I do not agree with it. I don’t want to kill them because they won’t convert.
        If they dislike our Western ways (and yes, there are bad things in our society), they are free to go live in an Islamic nation which might be more to their liking.
        Those that stay here are expected to abide by our laws and show respect to our ways. It’s really not hard!

  • bluedog

    A courageous and worthy suggestion, Your Grace. The only problem is that the post of Chair of the Islamic Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (or whatever you want to call it) would appear to be a death sentence. One hopes you will not be putting your name forward. A second martyrdom would look like carelessness.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    The problem is where will this debate about Mohammed take place? In the mosques? Unlikely. On social media? To some extent. On the mainstream media? Possibly, but the media generally takes a supine attitude to Islam, so the arguments will be dominiated by the loudest voices in the Islamic community.

    I have it on good authority that the Qu’ran does permit soft humour. It does not permit many aspects of Western-style humour such as sarcasm, satire, mocking, etc.. When the Ayatollah effectively told muslims they should have no fun, I wonder if he was trying to prevent them being polluted by Western humour and concept of “fun”?

    Frances socialist party has been one of the biggest advocates of mass immigration of muslims. it failed to foresee the consequences of the clash of cultures that would inevitably follow. For example, Muslims are responsible for most (not all) anti-semitic attacks in France. Now it is responsible for attacking those whose politics encouraged them to live there in the first place.

  • hope4all

    numerous authentic hadith(recording)state that Muhammed was not affected by critics or even slanderers.nothing so trivial was going to obscure his mission.one of his teachings is ‘it’s easy to love one who loves you,the test is to love the one who hates you. i believe he would have encouraged cartoonists to use their “skills” for the greater good of mankind.subtle humour is encouraged in islam within the confines of decency,to ‘lighten the mood’ and foster love and peace.crassness is taboo.it’s really quite simple.take it or leave it.

    • Inspector General

      So are you saying the Prophet would have had the cartoonists killed for crassness…

      • CliveM

        He’s deleted his comment. I hope you haven’t frightened him off, I was looking forward to some genuine Islamic input.

        • Inspector General

          He has as well!

          Here’s a copy the Inspector made earlier…

          hope4all • 26 minutes ago

          numerous authentic hadith(recording)state that Muhammed was not affected by critics or even slanderers.nothing so trivial was going to obscure his mission.one of his teachings is ‘it’s easy to love one who loves you,the test is to love the one who hates you. i believe he would have encouraged cartoonists to use their “skills” for the greater good of mankind.subtle humour is encouraged in islam within the confines of decency,to ‘lighten the mood’ and foster love and peace.crassness is taboo.it’s really quite simple.take it or leave it.

          • The Explorer

            I saw ‘This comment was deleted’ and wasn’t sure if it was done by the contributor, or by a blog administrator. Your contribution here has clarified the matter.

          • The comment was deleted (as, indeed, the Inspector’s reproduction will also be) for linking quite unnecessarily to a sex site.

          • Inspector General

            Good Lord!
            Of all things…

          • CliveM

            Hmm clearly someone not to be trusted!

          • The Explorer

            At least it won’t have been you know what. Clue: pale shade involved.

          • grutchyngfysch

            You must have some fascinating results from Google Analytics at times.

          • hope4all

            i did not link to any site.if you deemed my comment unsuitable and deleted i accept but not because i linked

          • Inspector General

            Did not detect a link, but it is well known that on visiting some sites, the viewer can pick up a computer infection. Now, either Cranmer visited that site or you did. Guess who the Inspector is putting his money on…

      • hope4all

        millions of christians were killed by christian ‘generals’ with your type of mentality.grow up a bit and you may have a chance of a half decent life.

        • Inspector General

          It will be a piss poor day in Christendom when any of us take instruction from some blasted muslim on decency.

          And why are you linking in to a sex site, you scoundrel…

          • hope4all

            thousands of white christian europeans especially the beautiful women folk,embrace islam and will continue to.
            the say “the only time in their lives when they have felt decent…is when enveloped by the beautiful shroud of islam”
            so stop pissing against the wind and come join us.i promise u will be pleasantly surprised.

          • Dreadnaught

            A shroud is quite apt – that’s all Mohammad (Piss be Upon him) promises.

          • Pubcrawler

            Many thousands are leaving Islam, too, to Christianity or atheism. And they are prepared to risk death to do so. Not a strong endorsement for the ‘shroud’ of which you speak.

          • carl jacobs

            Of course, if you don’t join, they will cut your head off. Which will be a surprise but not too pleasant.

  • alternative_perspective

    Christianity has won. Modern Western society is deeply Christian in its fundamental beliefs and all those born, raised and influenced by the West have similarly been Christianised. Thus Western Islam is interpreted by through a liberal, democratic, Christo-Western prism.

    Thus when they say, Islam is a religion of peace; they mean our Christo-Western interpretation of the Koran is peaceful. But to those not “infected” with Christo-Western thinking the Koran is read and actually understood (most non-native arabic speakers don’t understand what’s in the Koran) from its traditional Arab perspective, devoid of Christ’s influence.

    Thus those passages, and they are legion within the Koran, which support violent jihad are embraced as easily as those which promote peace. And lets be frank. Mohamad was a pragmatist: he used whatever would work to drive the dominance of Islam. If its peace, peace but there is no peace then so be it. If they bring a sword, then so be it.

    Westerners in their spineless, multicultural attempts to equate Christianity and Islam look desperately for verses and confirmation of their belief and bravely, though stupidly, claim this is a perversion of Islam, it is not – it is a perfectly valid school of thought and one with great historical pedigree.

    Most Western Muslims are similarly deceived or are deceivers, in the pattern of their god: “The greatest deceiver (makr)” S. 3:54; cf. 8:30. They are as much the legal heirs of the eschatological reality: “O Muslim, O servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him” as they are of the beauty and “purity” of the faith.

  • len

    Sound like we need to invent’ another Mohammed’ one in line with ‘the religion of peace?.’
    Then all the beheadings rapes and murders will stop?.

    • hope4all

      christians commit murder,rape, sodomy and every other evil known or unknown every minute of every holy day.does christianity need to be re-invented…or maybe the founder…jesus christ himself.God made muhammed and jesus and their message as pure and perfect and holy as He wanted it to be.they are untouchable.the so-called followers need to be tackled.

      • The Explorer

        What is unknown evil?
        a) Some new depravity that no one else has thought of?
        b) A conventional evil that the media haven’t reported yet?

      • The Explorer

        1440 murders and 1440 rapes every 24 hours. Are you sure? Who collated the statistics?

      • CliveM

        Hope4u

        This blood cult that some call Islam, isn’t a major threat to the west. Yes some adherents kill a number of people in cowardly attacks, but small numbers. The reason why this blood cult needs reformed, is because that the adherents are the most at risk of this ‘religion’.

        Let’s be brutally honest, Muslims are dying in horrible ways in large numbers at the hands of other Muslims. Not Christians, not Jews. Whether it be Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan or numerous other hell holes, Muslim women and children are being murdered in droves.

        The reason why 6 million Muslims live in France is because Islamic countries, without exception, are s@&t holes. They can offer no hope or future to the inhabitants who can’t get out. It is not only a blood cult, it is a cult of despair.

        So I won’t be converting thank you very much. Your faith has nothing to offer me or my country.

      • The Explorer

        If you mean that there is a lot of immorality in the formerly-Christian countries of the West (and much of it committed by unbelievers) then I am sure every Christian on this Blog would agree with you. As they would that Christians do not always follow the commands of their religion. But we would not agree that Muhammed and Christ preached the same message. However, I do respect your courage in visiting this site and expressing your viewpoint.

        • Watchman

          There are many bad people who are Christians but they are bad Christians and there are many good people who are Muslims but they are bad Muslims.

          • The Explorer

            The difference in a nutshell.

          • hope4all

            nutshell is what you have instead of a brain if you agree with ‘nut for a brain ‘ watchman. whats the difference…nutshell.

          • The Explorer

            In Christianity, if you smite unbelievers on the neck you are not obeying your religion. In Islam, you are.

      • len

        Christianity does not need to be re invented rediscovered perhaps? When we study the lives of Jesus Christ we can quite plainly see(if we have eyes to see) that Jesus taught on love and Mohammed taught on how to dominate and subjugate all who opposed Mohammed`s religion..

    • Shadrach Fire

      Why don’t they accept Jesus? He is Love, He does not execute and his spiritual power has been demonstrated ever since he was resurrected.

      • hope4all

        i am not a muslim if i dont accept jesus. with Gods permission did he demonstrate his spiritual power numerous times and what fantastic miracles they were.life to the dead…who can beat that…not even muhammed…when he was on this earth.he will always hold a very special place in the heart of every true muslim. but since he departed,what spiritual power has been demonstrated.

  • Johnny Rottenborough

    Did Mohammed laugh? Could he crack a joke? Is there any evidence that he had a sense of humour?

    Mohammed’s uncle entertained some doubts over his nephew’s claim to prophethood. If Mohammed’s reaction is any guide, the answer to Your Grace’s questions is No:

    [111:1] May the hands of Abu-Lahab perish! May he himself perish! [111:2] Nothing shall his wealth and gains avail him. [111:3] He shall be burnt in a flaming fire, [111:4] and his wife, laden with faggots, [111:5] shall have a rope of fibre round her neck!

    It’s Mrs Abu-Lahab I feel sorry for.

    • Inspector General

      Christmas at the Mohameds must have been a bloody riot…

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Quite literally! Still, there wouldn’t have been any fighting over the sausage rolls at least. I suspect that when they pulled their suicide-crackers the nails and ball-bearings would have made a mess of the turkey..

    • The Explorer

      My edition of the Qur’an prefaces the above (Johnny R’s, not the Inspector’s) with, “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” I’m afraid I just don’t see where the mercy comes in.with what follows.

      • The Explorer

        Voted myself up by mistake. Just took Uncle Brian’s advice, and voted myself down again.

        • William Lewis

          It’s a bit like a retweet for oneself. No harm done and gets the ball rolling. 🙂

      • alternative_perspective

        It reminds me of “Mars Attacks”. As they rampaging aliens dissolve all before them, they repeat like a mantra “we come in peace”.

        • Uncle Brian

          And with François Hollande pretending that “these murders have nothing to do with the Muslim religion,” the attackers shrunk him to the size of an ant and stepped on him, like they did with Rod Steiger in the film.

        • john in cheshire

          Or the Borg in Star Trek who used the phrase’prepare to be assimilated’.

      • Johnny Rottenborough

        @ The Explorer—Further to our discussion in His Grace’s pre-Disqus days about why Europe became multicultural, it turns out to be essential for our survival: ‘I think there’s a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time, Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural, and I think we’re gonna be part of the throes of that transformation which must take place—Europe is not gonna be the monolithic societies they once were in the last century. Jews are gonna be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Jews will be resented because of that leading role but without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.’ [YouTube search: ‘barbara lerner spectre calls for’]

        Charles Silberman was more succinct in 1985: ‘Jews are safe only in a society acceptant of a wide range of attitudes and behaviours, as well as a diversity of religious and ethnic groups.’

        Of course, if Jews had left Europe and the United States as ‘monolithic societies’—that’s to say, white Christian societies—rather than agitating with immense success for Third World and Muslim immigration, the outlook for Jews themselves would be a whole lot rosier than it is. Which rather makes me think that Jews are primarily motivated by, should we say, resentment: ‘[anti-Semitism] is endemic to every Christian culture whose religions made Jews the eternal villain in the Christian drama of salvation.’ [Sidney Hook, 1949]

  • dannybhoy

    I lived in a certain middle eastern country whose name it might not be wise to mention.
    Oh okay, I give in. It was Israel.
    During that period I mainly worked alongside Israelis, and on occasion Palestinians.
    To all you Anglicans and others who support the Palestinian cause, may I remind you, even force you to recognise, that the basic aim of Palestinian leaderships is the eradication of the Jewish State.

    Completely.
    Their long term goal is not coexistence, or a two state solution, it is the end of the Jewish State; the wiping out of the Israelis and all those who support them.

    (I think part of the reason for increasing numbers of Muslims in the West is so that extremists can plant their cells, plan attacks and by whatever means change western opinion against Israel.
    Whatever verses are plucked from the Koran to prove peaceful or aggressive intent, look at the historical evidence. How Islam was founded, how it spread, how it imposed its rule, how it made converts. Submission to the will of Allah as revealed to the prophet Muhammed is the core, the heart of Islam.
    No room for democracy, no room for western concepts of justice or mercy or tolerance (or satire!).

    Only submission to the will of Allah as revealed to the prophet Muhammed.
    So men of peace, men of libertarian values, men of compromise, men of appeasement can do whatever they want, say whatever they want.
    It does not change the current threat to the West posed by Jihadis or extremists. Muslims who are tolerant, or not observant, even irreligious, will face the same threat.

    • Merchantman

      Until the majority even realise there is a glass to look through; to understand all of this; its going to be pushing water uphill.

    • hope4all

      millions of jews and/or zionist openly advocate the creation of eretz izrael that will be inhabited by jews only.amazingly you have not noticed the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians.modern day israel happened thanks to the ruthlessness of irgun,haganah and stern gang.they slaughtererd hundreds of thousands,displaced millions and to this day brag about it.if the palestinians now wish to reverse the scenario by the very same or other methods,why is it so difficult to understand where they come from.whether their desires are justified is a debate for another day but surely u must accept that one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

      • dannybhoy

        I could say to you that the creation of the modern State of Israel was legitimate and recognised and ratified by the United Nations back in 1948.

        The same opportunity was offered to the Palestinians, but they declined to come to the party. In fact a Palestinian State has been offered and rejected two or three times.

        No one is saying that all the Israelis do is correct or that their settlement programme is justified. I have my own criticisms of some Israeli policies, but that does not mean they have no right to exist, or to have peaceful security as they currently have with Jordan and Egypt.

        “modern day israel happened thanks to the ruthlessness of irgun,haganah and stern gang.they slaughtererd hundreds of thousands,displaced millions and to this day brag about it.”

        This is blatantly untrue. Blatantly untrue!
        Have you been to Israel?
        Have you talked face to face with Israelis about the situation?
        Until you have you are only repeating either what you have been told, or what you want to believe.
        We all wish for a just and peaceful settlement for the Palestinians and the Israelis. No one wants the death of innocents,no one wants Palestinians to live in the ruins of what were their homes, without fresh water, without heat, without shelter.
        No one wants it.
        Yet the Palestinian leadership still refuse to sit down and hammer out a peace deal that would give hope to their people.

      • Uncle Brian

        Some people will believe anything. Here’s a test. How many Muslims are elected members of the Knesset? How many Jews are elected members of any parliament or congress in any Muslim-majority country?

        • hope4all

          those arab knesset members are lame ducks.window dressing to fool the world that israel is a democracy.arab israelis are third class citizens in the country of their birth.thats democracy for you.exactly what the apartheid government in south africa said.’apartheid is good for the blacks…they just don’t know it’.
          how many jews that live in a muslim majority country stand for election if they are lucky/unlucky enough to have elections.
          methinks iran has a few thousand jews and they have parliamentary representation..no. of course yes.

          • Uncle Brian

            Stop drivelling for moment, if you can, and just answer the question. Here it is again in simplified form:

            (a) Of the 120 elected members of the Knesset in Jerusalem, how many are Muslims?

            (b) Of all the elected members of all the parliaments, congresses and legislative assemblies in all the Muslim-majority countries added together, how many are Jews?

            (c) Which is the larger number, (a) or (b)?

          • hope4all

            numbers mean nothing.if a hundred idiots vote in the biggest idiot and the professor lost because it’s idiot country than you are super happy because its the numbers that count.that’s democracy for you.hows that for driveling.

          • hope4all

            a)i know about lame-duck tibi and mannequin zoabi so i guess my answer is two.am i right am i right.

            b)i dont know any so my answer is ….umm 0.am i right am i right pleeese say i’m right.

            c)a) is not a number…b) is not a number either.ha u thought u could get me with a trick question u old buggerer u.

            now i got one for you.what is the population of jews in these so-called ‘muslim’ majority countries.

          • The difference being the Knesset has real power. The Iranian parliament is really window dressing. The real power is the conclave of clerics and ayatollahs.

            PS: Haneen Zoabi, is window dressing?! LOL.

          • hope4all

            the jewish members have all the power.what have the arab mk’s achieved all these years.zilch.zoabi farted audibly and now she she is facing jail-time.haneen zoabi…pleeeeeze…lol

          • carl jacobs

            I am impressed, hope4all. You have managed to restrain yourself from calling Jews either ‘pigs’ or ‘dogs’ throughout this entire thread. The effort you must be expending to hold yourself back must be considerable.

          • hope4all

            little thing impress little people.a jew is a jew and a pig is an animal created by God and has a purpose and function.i cant eat pig but no-one is gonna make me hate it. here’s a gem and it’s gonna knock you for a six.God says in the quraan.you cannot love me if you dont love all of my creation.to love God you must first recognise Him and you can only through his creation…every aspect of it.zero effort is required to do this.just let that heart open a bit to let in the LIGHT.

          • carl jacobs

            I understand. So long as Islam does not hold power, you have to make a good impression. Still. It’s an impressive display of self-control.

      • magnolia

        Unlike some on here I don’t think that the Palestinians have been treated well. I would propose peace, the putting aside of violence by both sides, and something like the Peace and Reconciliation Committee that took place in South Africa. I have to say that quite a lot of Israelis seem a bit insulted at the idea that they might learn from South Africans, but then there are a very lovely more peaceful group who agree and would be willing and humble enough to learn.

        • carl jacobs

          magnolia

          And what would this peace you propose look like?

          I have to say that quite a lot of Israelis seem a bit insulted at the idea that they might learn from South Africans

          Understandable, since the later has no experience applicable to the former.

          I remember seeing a picture on the CNN website during the original intifada. It showed a crowd of Palestinians who had just killed some Israeli civilians. Their hands were covered in blood, and they were holding those hands up for the camera. With big smiles on their faces. I will never forget those pictures and neither will the Israelis.

          • magnolia

            All war is brutal, and there have been atrocities on both sides. That is the message that I hear from listening to both sides. I have not a lot of time for hardline Muslims, but most Palestinians are not hardline Muslims, some are indeed Druze or Christian or other beliefs. I am shocked by those pictures, but no less shocked when I read or saw a piece on an early female Israeli spy who said she would have killed anyone, literally, man woman or child, without flinching in the least for the slight furtherance of her cause. I cannot remember her name, but it was her own words in a UK news outlet, and I felt like being sick when I came across such unnatural feelings – about 10 years ago hence the sketchiness,

            The thing to aim for is remembrance with rancour excised, for Revenge never solves anything, but just kicks the can down the road, and ensures the next generation repeat the same mistakes.

            As for South Africa, I think we can all learn, both individually and corporately; I know I can/could.

          • carl jacobs

            magnolia

            But that doesn’t answer my question. You proposed peace. So how are you going to achieve it, and what end-state are you seeking to achieve. Only a fool would voluntarily set himself as a minority in a Muslim state. So what is this “peace” you are trying to achieve?

          • magnolia

            Ok in practical terms living alongside each other without lobbing missiles at each other would be a start. There are villages where Jews and Muslims live alongside each other and get on. It is hard to hate someone when you live close up, and that helps. All you see on TV is the bad bits. There are good bits too, places where people can and do get along, and even make friends from the other group. This needs to spread.

            I think it is very worrying to sit in a restaurant in Israel and see teenagers and early twenties in khaki sitting there with rifles at the ready. This is the last age group which you would expect to show adult restraint about when and when not to shoot, surely?

            There are deeper levels of peace but greater restraint in violence is a good starting point, and there seems plenty of room for that on both sides.

          • carl jacobs

            magnolia

            The Palestinians could have peace tomorrow on those terms. But they do not want peace on those terms. They want Islam dominant and the Jews either dead or gone. Preferably dead.

            There is no peace with Islam except the peace that proceeds from the boot on the throat.

          • bluedog

            South Africa is on its way to becoming just another Sub-Saharan African state run by a corrupt and entrenched political class with no respect for the property rights of minorities. Not sure what lesson SA can teach us other than that of social regression.

          • hope4all

            millions of non-whites lost valuable property, stolen by a racist apartheid pushing government. simply because they were not white. you being white,it seems u miss those days. the current government is a democratically elected one. corrupt to the core but hey thats just another name for capitalism…and you love capitalism as long as it benefits only you and your tribe ne. the lesson is that a minority can rule over a majority as long as the minority are not overwhelmed by greed and pride.
            the white ruling class failed all the tests and their ‘ass became grass’.but they still hold financial control so what are you complaining about.

      • Over 1,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands, but you’ve forgotten that. Funny how Israeli ethnic cleansing of Arabs work, given that the population of Israeli Arabs has actually increased, not decreased. It is also strange that more Arabs have died as a result of Muslim on Muslim violence, than the Arab Israeli conflict.

  • Merchantman

    The Bible says there is neither Male or Female in heaven. This is God’s big joke on these Jihadists. Not that it will concern them in the dark place they are likely headed.

  • Shadrach Fire

    Your Grace,
    It may just be that they can’t help being the way they are.
    Genesis 16-11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
    12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him</B.; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

    It would be good to have as I had requested an explicit guide to the Islamic faith that Christians can read and use in discussion with Muslims. It would seem to me that Muslims are either converted by force or by birth. How many give it due consideration and then decide to believe of not.

    • hope4all

      christian scholars of the highest eminence have proven that the bible has been torn apart,re-hashed,revised,reviewed,re-written…simply put ‘re-created’.the quran states that arabs/muhammed is from isaac.but so what.
      muslims believe that every prophet or messenger of god was ‘in islam’ or muslim because he obviously submitted to the will of the creator.in the quraan God warns believers to guard their faith with their lives,if not it could be snatched away.having faith in God is no favour unto Him.it is for us to go out and do the hard stuff.

      • magnolia

        And why if you think that the Koran is so perfect was Ali allowed to put his bits in, with the equivalent of an “oh yes, that sounds like a good bit, let’s put that in”?

        • CliveM

          Tom Holland anyone?

      • Two hyperlinks in that message, Please stop.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Barnabas Fund produce many such things. Look them up, buy one, and away you can go.

  • carl jacobs

    This is the 21st century – the modern age of sophistication, civilisation and enlightenment.

    Certainly the conceited West thinks this of itself. But what source of illumination has provided the light of this enlightenment? And what kind of civilization is it that butchers its own children without mercy for the sake of money and pleasure? And what is the measure of sophistication but the prideful heart of man?

    The West is like an old man who longs for the return of his spent youth. He clings to his bottle of Viagra, and buys the company of young women with his money. But he cannot escape the knowledge that these women keep company only with the money and not him.

    • hope4all

      i share your pain but perversion has always existed,way before the west became west. that is why God sent messengers,to try and convince people to keep on Gods straight path and not satans dark one.why did cain kill abel? a lesson that vanity and jealousy can result in murder…of your blood brother.how did satan mislead the beautiful women of cains tribe and the handsome men of abels.with music and dancing and then all hell broke loose.
      you are absolutely correct.the secret is to guard moral values.satan will always try to convince us that vulgarity,decadence,perversity,greed and all the other filth is better for us.keep the faith…as long as it’s in GOD ALLMIGHTY!…whatever u wish to call HIM.

      • CliveM

        Says the one who puts up links into sex sites.

        • hope4all

          i did no such thing.i dont even know how to put up a link.i am a one finger typer but i manage to get a message across…unlike you with bugger all to say.

          • CliveM

            Now don’t tell me, it was an accident and you don’t understand how it happened?

            What worth is your message? Whatever the truth of what Carl says, it’s the west that people want to live in, not the Muslim world.

          • carl jacobs

            Multiple links in multiple messages, and yet he says he doesn’t know how to embed links. Well, that’s what we would call … a lie.

        • carl jacobs

          Clive

          A man who used to work with me was a Reservist. He was called up and spent a year in Afghanistan. You should hear the stories he told about Friday nights in the Muslim barracks.

          There weren’t any women in those barracks, of course.

      • carl jacobs

        You realize of course that if I will say this about the secularized West, then I will say that Islam is a degenerate tyrant mutilating his daughter’s genitals, and sodomizing the eight year-old son of his servant. ISIS is Islam. Its hands are red with infidel blood, and it rejoices in the color.

        You know nothing of God. You might as well be a servant of Baal.

        • hope4all

          if you are happy with your beliefs…well then.hope it brings you lots of good but i doubt it.ugly usually begets ugly.who the fu$% is baal.

          • carl jacobs

            Baal is a reasonable facsimile of the god for whom Mohammed purported to be prophet.

      • Dreadnaught

        hope4all

        Your ‘Religion,’ Proffart and Koran is a twisted rip-off of Judaism and Christianity.

        It is bereft of any redeeming features except for use as toilet paper or bedding for pigs. What else other than the fear of exposure drives you to build your mosques on top of churches and temples; extol murder, rape and enslavement as divine ordination.

        Without appropriated technology you are still ignorant stooges of the Arabs. You even have to learn their language to read the Koran; the vast majority of Muslims don’t and are kept submissive by threats and acts of violence by mob mentality from other Muslims.

        Your end of days is long overdue.

        • hope4all

          oh what a jolly great human being you are.

          • Dreadnaught

            If nothing else You got that right.

  • len

    One of the myths about Islam being dispelled by those who claim to honour its god is the myth that Islam is ‘a religion of peace’.

    • hope4all

      the key word being ‘claim’.anybody can claim anything but the proof is in the action.islam forbids the killing of innocents.if a christian commits a crime than he is guilty of the crime.not christianity.so why when a muslim commits murder is there a call for the eradication of islam.how many muslims have not harmed anybody…more than two billion.how many christians have killed millions of christians and non-christians…millions.remove the blinkers.it will do you a world of good.focus on the individuals.

      • Four (disabled) hyperlinks in that message. Please desist, or you will be blocked.

        • hope4all

          what hyperlinks.really am clueless.will somebody please tell me where or how this link thing keeps being associated with me. isn’t a link that web address thing that appears in blue. i’ve done no such thing.

          • Inspector General

            You need to get hold of a registry cleaner like RegProCure. Or you might re-instal windows at factory setting. Otherwise your predilection for looking at pictures of naked white women will accompany you on your travels…

          • carl jacobs

            You think he has a virus?

          • CliveM

            In fairness I think so. It’s how he will have got it that’s interesting!

            Anyway the Inspector seems to know what to do about it :0)

          • carl jacobs

            Hrmmmm. “The Inspector seems to know what to do about it.” Hrmmmm. Dare we ask why the Inspector knows what to do about it?

            😀

          • CliveM

            Probably best left unasked!

          • dannybhoy

            He’s been “pink nosing” or should that be “pink newsing?”

          • It seems he goes where the angels fear to tread ….

          • dannybhoy

            He’s had a fair amount of practice recently, so now considers himself somewhat of an expert.. 😉
            Incidentally, used my iMac today and reading Cranmer it froze. My antivirus prog (don’t believe that rot about Apple computers not getting viruses) detected and blocked two trojan horses on Cranmer, so please be careful folks!

          • Inspector General

            No, something called an infection. He’s probably also getting adverts from all over, which is their raison d’etre. If he’s unlucky enough to be getting ‘bestadbid’ then hard bloody luck. Nothing shifts that other than re-installation of windows…

          • Inspector General

            Postscript. One does assume he has anti virus. If he doesn’t then he’s a damn fool and deserving of what he gets…

          • hope4all

            i have anti-virus. william lewis is correct. the problem is the way i type. no space after . and no capitals. sorry to disappoint but not about sex sites u damn fool. and what u got against whats up womens skirts.

          • dannybhoy

            Ebola perhaps?
            I hope not!

          • William Lewis

            If you don’t put spaces after your full stops you may, inadvertently, write a URL which seems to be generating a hyperlink.

          • Inspector General

            Unlikely William. It’s a sex site. hope4all has been looking up ladies skirts…

          • William Lewis

            Not sure Inspector. The link that I saw seemed completely random.

          • If you post another message on this site before you have disinfected your computer, you will be blocked. Multiple hyperlinks are embedded in your posts, and they are visible to everyone but (seemingly) you. Unless, of course, your function is to visit blogs and spam them with links while pretending to engage. Your name isn’t Claire, by any chance, is it?

          • Inspector General

            One has inspected his rot by clicking on his username and then ‘full profile’. William is right. He is creating them through ineptitude. Nothing in most of them.

            Looks like there’s little hope for hope4all, by the look of things…

          • Dreadnaught

            Sounds more like DoDo or one of his other alter egos. The posts seem deliberately disguised with lack of capitals but an overt presence of youf speak.

          • hope4all

            it’s the way i type. no spaces after . being a mod u should have figured it out instead of accusing

          • Inspector General

            Bit more respect from you, young lad, lest the Inspector pull your ear off…

      • bugalugs2

        “.islam forbids the killing of innocents.if a christian commits a crime than he is guilty of the crime.not christianity.so why when a muslim commits murder is there a call for the eradication of islam”

        If a Christian commits a crime he doesn’t claim that he is defending Christianity of doing it in the name of Christianity, because there is no authority in Christianity for his crime.

        When a Muslim commits a crime which he does not claim to do “in the name of Islam” there is no such cry, though it is interesting how disproportionate the Muslim population in prison is compared to the wider population

        BUT, the most barbaric, vile murders across the globe atm are being done by Muslims “in the name of Islam” and there are vast numbers of Muslims rushing in to defend them when they do so. In that respect they mimic the obvious paranoid insecurity of the founder of their ‘religion’.

    • The Explorer

      Remember “What have the Romans ever done for us? Except for…” And the list is long.
      “Islam is religion of peace. Except for…” And the list gets longer by the week. Not just Paris. What about the 2000 killed in Nigeria?

  • dannybhoy

    Peeps,
    I recognise the depth of feeling and revulsion the recent massacre in France arouses.
    I don’t know who this “hope4all” chap is, but let’s please remember this is a Christian blog, and allowing ourselves to repond to provocation intended or not, does none of us any good.

    • hope4all

      oh dannybhoy…grow a pair will ya. i enjoy this kinda thing thats all.you know,conversing,debating,sharing,learning.but because i’m muslim you will only be happy if i was out murdering.and you are perfectly happy to be conditioned thus.God says ,to mankind ,in the quraan,’i have created you different so that you may recognise each other.’to an ignoramus this may sound like bollocks but just imagine if we were all created the same.but this is the utopia that you crave.where everyone looks like you,thinks like you…well good luck to you then.i had no idea this was a christian only site.i hope you’re happy in your little world.one last thing…islam is here to stay.whether you like it or not.you are not going to eradicate it.people have been killing each other from the beginning of time.i pray daily that it ends.i cry for all innocents killed by whichever hand.i care not whether you believe it or not.peace out.

      • dannybhoy

        “.but because i’m muslim you will only be happy if i was out murdering.and you are perfectly happy to be conditioned thus.”

        Is making assumptions also part of your particular Muslim beliefs?

        “God says ,to mankind ,in the quraan,’i have created you different so that you may recognise each other.”

        I think that should be..
        “According to the god of the Koran…”
        because it’s not found in the Tenakh or the New Testament, and it is well documented that Muhammed was very influenced by the Jews and Christians. That’s why we are referred to as “the Peoples of the Book”

        “islam is here to stay.whether you like it or not.you are not going to eradicate it”
        If Islam is to survive it will have to allow examination of its precepts in the same way that Christianity has. Otherwise it will remain stuck in the Middle Ages.

        May I respectfully point out to you that not only are most of the modern conveniences such as medicines and technologies imported by Islam from the West, many Muslims seem to prefer the benefits afforded by Western nations.
        In fact they are willing to risk their lives to reach peaceful and stable nations where they can continue to practice Islam.
        As long as it doesn’t include honour killings, forced marriages, female genital mutilation, dissing our Queen, our soldiers and our laws, and seeking to kill their fellow British citizens using bombs or guns or knives..
        I’ll consider your request to grow a set, if you’ll consider my request to grow a brain and study grammar.
        Deal??

        • hope4all

          you seem to understand everything i write so there cant be much wrong with my grammar.if you want to nit-pick about every comma,postrophy…or is apostrofee.well than it’s your time i suppose.the fact that you are interacting with me more than anyone else suggests that i have a brain…or are you obsessed with the brainless.when i said to grow a pair i meant have the courage to tolerate my views and beliefs.i mean this is exactly what you are asking of muslims in’your country’ no?
          i agree with you about technology and ‘the west’ and all that but so what.the west sells what it has to whoever/whomever can pay the highest price.the west appropriated knowledge from other civilisations by the tons…and gold and diamonds and rubber and silk and tea(not earl grey but you catch my drift.)and slaves man don’t forget the slaves and the slavery and theft still goes on all over the world and everyone wants to kill everyone because the talk different.oh how i wish jesus would come now.i’ll be happy to be his donkey.to have the blessed jesus sit upon me.
          knowledge is from God for all his creation.no need to brag that u make medicine.even some animals know what things are medicinal for them.God created man with an instinct to migrate.this borders thing is because of mans greed.nothing belongs to no-one(excuse the grammar or lack thereof).everyone leaves this place skint…the way you came.i never dissed yo queen and the future queen is hot.
          long live the queen…long live everyone…so they may repent.

          • Paul Newton

            Lusting after another man’s wife – where does that fit into Muslim morality?

          • bluedog

            Isn’t a Muslim allowed four wives? As the sexes are born in equal numbers, this means that only 25% of Muslim men are likely to marry. One could therefore sympathise with the dispossessed 75% of Muslim men for lusting after another Muslim man’s wife. An alternative option for the dispossessed would be to capture some non-Muslim women and use them as sex-slaves. Islam has much to recommend it.

          • Inspector General

            “Two wives we’re allowed in the army, but one’s too many for me”

            The Gentleman Soldier (Traditional)

          • bluedog

            Foot-loose and fancy-free, Mr Inspector?

          • hope4all

            very few muslim men have more than one wife. we are super but sadly not superman. who in this day and age can even consider more than one. todays one is like ten… and viagra is bad shit man and where u gonna find horny goats weed or ali’s walking stick.

          • Both Eurycoma Longifolia and Epimedium are available from Holland and Barrett.

          • hope4all

            lust is human nature.controlling it is the mark of a man… a god-fearing man. muhammed taught that success is controlling whats between your teeth (tongue)and between your legs.

          • dannybhoy

            ” i meant have the courage to tolerate my views and beliefs.i mean this
            is exactly what you are asking of muslims in’your country’ no?”
            But erm, I’m a native of this country and my family have been here hundreds of years. You or your family (if you really are a Muslim) came here to a Christian country.
            I don’t have a problem with that or any other person as long as they recognise “Different country – different rules.”

            Means I fit in without losing my religious or cultural identity, I obey the rules, respect the way of life, don’t try and change it to fit in with my culture or religion.” If I can’t and I am a man of honour and integrity I leave for somewhere better.

            “the west appropriated knowledge from other civilisations by the
            tons…and gold and diamonds and rubber and silk and tea(not earl grey
            but you catch my drift.)and slaves man don’t forget the slaves and the
            slavery”

            All empires amassed wealth. Slavery we abolished.

          • hope4all

            look around and you will see see millions of enslaved.the shackles are invisible but they are enslaved nevertheless.
            slavery is alive and thriving.majority of muslims in brittain are born there and so are their parents and maybe even old gramps and gramma on both sides.they refuse to speak the queens tongue so are you gonna make them.you are pissed off because brittain aint so white and pure no-more.but your people went to their lands and f’d -up their lives first. now it’s pay back. it’s a bitter pill to swallow but is there really anything you can do about it. you just have to live with the new demographics or wait for pakistan to empty out and you move there.

          • Inspector General

            You don’t hear of Britons complaining about being colonised by the Romans or Normans. Think about it. Your forebears were brought civilisation. Next time you’re sitting on a toilet, give thanks to the white man even if it’s just for that piece of porcelain…

          • hope4all

            talking about toilets and pooping, recently a conference on the very same subject and all the great white scientists and engineers agreed that one of the greatests disasters upon mankind is forcing people to poop and piss into perfectly clean drinking water.and then using another 20 litres to wash it all away.and spend billions to purify it and you get back
            2 %. and the earth is fast running out of drinking water and you’re proud of your porcelain toilets. do you have anymore brain-farts that you wish to share.

          • Inspector General

            “The earth is fast running out of drinking water”

            When you return to school on Monday, do tell your class mates you engaged with adults on a blog site, and held your position well. One expects you will receive plenty of “Cool!” responses…

        • Dreadnaught

          No Muslim would type the word muslim without a capital letter – this is no Muslim.

          • Inspector General

            No. The young have a disdain for capitals. Some of his posts go back 2 years…

          • Dreadnaught

            The trouble with that is that the youf speak we are witness to is what an old white-man may think is youf speak and the rest one would expect, in texting talk. No young person I know would spend a Saturday night on here making a complete tit of themselves when they could be out with their mates doing it.

          • Inspector General

            Perhaps he’s upset his father and has been confined to his bedroom.

          • dannybhoy

            That reminds me of that excellent programme on resurrecting a Borstal with youngsters in trouble with the law..

            http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/jan/09/bring-back-borstal-not-based-on-my-experience
            Most excellent, and very sad to see what chaos these young men live in. Exactly the same attitudes as the youngsters my wife and I used to work with..

          • hope4all

            i regard this as casual discussion. not gonna concern myself with all rules of grammar. u can give me couple de-merits if you wish. one of my daily prayers is, God thank you for accepting me into islam, help me live as a true muslim and please let me die in islam.

          • bluedog

            Hope4all

            You’ve been busy, there are many posts to follow, and it’s
            time to try and help you in your understanding.

            You ask: ‘where are all the churches. any new ones being
            built anywhere ).’

            Well, Muslims have burnt 1000 churches in Nigeria in the
            past month so one imagines the surviving Christians will try to rebuild sooner
            rather than later. One notes that Boko Haram is setting up its own little
            Islamic State in northern Nigeria after massacring the Christians. Meanwhile, Christianity
            is the fastest growing religion in the world, particularly in East Asia. China
            is on track to become the world’s most populous Christian country.

            You say; ‘islam works for the individual who wants a
            clean,regulated,ordered,disciplined life.’

            No need to think for yourself then, just turn up, tune in
            and drop out. Leave it to Allah.

            You say, ‘the will destroy themselves…like the crusaders.’

            Huh? In any event, the Crusaders were reacting to Muslim
            aggression in the Holy Land, including the desecration of the Church of the Holy
            Sepulchre in October 1009.

            You say: ‘one last thing…islam is here to stay.whether you
            like it or not.you are not going to eradicate it.’

            Now don’t get over-confident, read on. Pride before the fall
            etc.

            You say, ‘please let me die in islam.’

            No comment.

            You say, ‘God created man with an instinct to migrate.this
            borders thing is because of mans greed.nothing belongs to no-one’

            A moot point. Islamic societies inherit their prophet’s practice
            of itinerant plunder rather than the settled production of Jesus Christ, the
            carpenter. Your comment validates the perception that Muslims immigrate to the
            West to live off the Welfare state.

            You say, ‘you are pissed off because brittain aint so white
            and pure no-more.’

            Most of us are more interested in the constructive qualities
            of migrants rather than the superficiality of colour that seems to obsess you.
            Consider the Chinese. They are a hard-working, highly intelligent, frequently
            Christian and self-reliant people. Our Muslim settlers seem to be the reverse,
            in all regards.

            You say, ‘you just have to live with the new demographics or
            wait for pakistan to empty out and you move there.’

            Okay, so you self-identify as a British-born Muslim of
            Pakistani descent. Setting aside anything we may do to change the demographics
            of the UK (plenty of calls for no Muslims, not more Muslims), can you explain
            the backward status of Pakistan vis a vis India? Taking the simple metric of
            GDP per capita, Pakistan clocks up USD 3100 per annum or USD 59 per week. The comparable
            figure for India is 30% higher. So what’s gone wrong in Pakistan?

            Yes, yes, we know, it’s the legacy of British imperialism.
            Or is it that Pakistan is Muslim and like just about every Muslim country, it
            ranks way down on the ratings of all that makes for a successful society?

            Here are some quotes from a man who has the right idea:

            ‘I am referring here to the religious clerics. We have to
            think hard about what we are facing—and I have, in fact, addressed this topic a
            couple of times before. It’s inconceivable that the thinking that we hold most
            sacred should cause the entire umma to be a source of anxiety, danger, killing
            and destruction for the rest of the world. Impossible!’

            And,

            ‘All this that I am telling you, you cannot feel it if you
            remain trapped within this mindset. You need to step outside of yourselves to
            be able to observe it and reflect on it from a more enlightened perspective.

            I say and repeat
            again that we are in need of a religious revolution. You, imams, are
            responsible before Allah. The entire world, I say it again, the entire world is
            waiting for your next move… because this umma is being torn, it is being
            destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.’

            Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, address on 1st
            January 2015.

            Read through your own posts, look at your implied threats
            and think about what al-Sisi has said. His Grace is on the same page, although
            presumably unconnected to the Egyptian president.

            You may conclude that what you have been told to believe within
            Islam is about to change.

            Insh’allah.

          • dannybhoy

            Without reformation Islam is doomed.

  • john in cheshire

    YG, I think you are mistaken, for if muslims are allowed to laugh at their religion, or laugh with those who mock their religion that implies they are permitted to think and in so thinking to question. Once questioning is allowed a good few muslims will see islam for what it is and they will want to change it. But any change will facilitate its destruction which the muslim leaders will never permit because it destroys their power. So in my view islam can never be accommodated, only opposed.

  • Inspector General

    Any attempt from muslims to reform their faith will only lead to another Islamic sect. Islamic sects are rather like those chemical compounds you keep separated in the laboratory because if they ever did come into contact with each other, they explode.

  • IanCad

    “Prophetology” Just the ticket. Learn all about him.

    Everything about the bloodthirsty child rapist should be out there for all to see.

    Asia Bibi languishes under the sentence of death in Pakistan.

    Yesterday in Jeddah Raif Badawi received fifty lashes for running a website not in tune with the dictatorship. Nine hundred and fifty more to go. Ten years in the slammer as well.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    It’s worth taking a look at the religionofpeace website from time to time to see the extent of the Islamo-carnage. There are shootings, suicide bombings, beheadings, etc going on around the world pretty well on a daily basis.

    Very little of this gets reported in our lamestream media, and when it does get reported it is always an “isolated” incident and not typical of, or inspired by Islam. A mere 25,000 of these “isolated”, non-Islam-inspired atrocities have happened since 9/11. So don’t worry. They are rare and untypical of that religion. We can rest assured that it is a nice cuddly religion, and those nasty people on the political right should stop trying to convince us it is anything other than that.

  • bugalugs2

    If you want to know about Mo, read the hadith, they’ll tell you about him deflowering a nine year old girl, sending others into battle without armour whilst wearing a double suit himself as he stays in the rear, murdering captives and those who mocked him, slave dealing, armed robber, the list just goes on and on …

    … and this is the supposed ‘perfect example’ that Muslims must follow.

    If you’re hoping a Prophetology will somehow uncover a benign soul sorely misunderstood, a would be CofE vicar with a penchant for robbing passing caravans whilst dressed in Arab robes as well as young girls, you’re going to be sadly disappointed.

  • The Quran and Hadiths = hate,violence and war manifesto.

    How many more examples does the west need for God’s sake before it is
    decried as an incitement to commit acts of violence and hatred upon
    other human beings.

  • Anton

    When I read the New Testament I am sorry that most people who call themselves Christians are nominal Christians. When I read the Quran (especially suras 8 & 9) I am glad that most people who call themselves Muslims are nominal Muslims.

    • Given half the chance they wouldn’t be! Look at the muslim countries around the world and you see how they really are. It’s only by a very thin thread of western civilisation are some of them nominal muslims here. The thread needs to become more like rope if we are to retain our civilisation.

    • dannybhoy

      I think there are an awful lot of nominal Muslims. Muslims who wanted to escape from despair, from fatalism, wanted the best for their families, wanted a safer future.
      Unfortunately Islam is so all consuming, so demanding, so restrictive that even nominal Muslims feel the pull of the community, the certainty, the ordered life and respect for others within Islam. And we have to agree that there are excesses in our Western culture which are NOT attractive. Too much alcohol, loose morals, broken relationships broken families. People whose lives are so empty that they live on a diet of soap operas, Big Brother and nonentity culture…
      We have to face that.
      If that’s what a Muslim sees. then why would they want to know more? Many of us are now sick of consumerism because it’s so empty.

      • Old Blowers

        Danny
        What you say is largely true except the definition of nominalism.

        This is because we know too much regarding nominalism in christianity such that these nominals claim things such as love thy neighbour etc as their ‘bag’ making them christians. I have NEVER come across any muslim that states mohammed was not THE MESSENGER or that ALLAH never spoke his words through him and He is not an example to all muslims.

        There is a world of difference between a nominal christian and a muslim because this sort of nominalism would mean that nominal christians would therefore say Jesus Christ is the son of God and all his words were from the Father and he was born of a virgin and did divine miracles that are unique and state his uniqueness as god/man.

        It is impossible to differentiate between a nominal or extreme muslim simply through theology. The problem that infuriates the extremist (mohammed and his legacy, their traditions, israel) is buried deep and kept silent in the breast of the nominal except he/she refuses to openly tell you this. CAPICHE?

        • dannybhoy

          Old Blowers sir,
          I think, but I’m not certain that all religions see their adherents as being born into that faith, and would be expected to conform at least outwardly to its commands.
          Islam probably more than most.
          We don’t believe anyone is born a Christian. However it happens we choose to come out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light through the gracious working of the Holy Spirit.
          I think we also accept that many in other faiths are nominal members of their faith. It’s an identity. It gives them a sense of belonging, a sense of acceptance.
          I wouldn’t expect a nominal Muslim to tell me that’s where he’s at unless we are really friends and he trusts me. There are after all, Muslims turning to Christ here in this country.

        • Shadrach Fire

          Old Blowers, Ow Cums u as so much wised to thro bout like. Aint yer gonner share it bout. (No offence to anyone. This is how they speak round here in Towie Town).

          dannybhoy has the right idea about things but lacks a little maturity and experience I suspect. We all need some of what you have got Blowers. How about a lecture course now that you have someone to drive you.

      • hope4all

        this islam thing seems to be eating you guys from the inside out.
        you say the excesses of the western culture is ‘unattractive’
        phaleeeze. u don’t call something that is destroying you unattractive.
        you have to go for that which strengthens and promotes you and guess what…u know exactly what that is. you must admit that christiandom is dying a fast painfull death. (where are all the churches. any new ones being built anywhere ). and it’s not the ‘bad bogey muslim-man doing the killing.he is too busy killing himself and his brother ‘infidels’.islam works for the individual who wants a clean,regulated,ordered,disciplined life. islam does not need the extremist. one of the tenants of the faith is ‘there must be no compulsion in religion.’ a muslim must not force another to embrace the faith. but once you’re in the fold,blind faith works best. there will always be those who want to force but they will not succeed. the will destroy themselves…like the crusaders.so stop shitting yourself and just be a good human being in the meantime.
        if Allaah has chosen you for islam,theres no escaping.believe that.

        • dannybhoy

          It’s not eating away at us, but we are discussing the events and causes and conflicts that has led up to this massacre.

          I don’t believe in the Islamic concept of God, I believe in the God of the Bible, I believe Jesus is the Son of God and pre-existed as God, and came down to earth, was born of the Spirit, not of carnal relations, lived as a man and chose to die on the cross so that He could offer salvation and eternal life to all who would respond and follow Him as disciples. I became a Christian forty six years ago and the grace of God sustains me and delights me.

        • CliveM

          “Blind faith works best”

          Well for Muslims I would have thought it a necessity.

        • Pubcrawler

          “if Allaah has chosen you for islam”

          May God forbid.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          MMMmmmm if ‘Islam does not need the extremist’ why are there so many of them?

  • len

    nohopeAtall seems to be a troll under deep cover perhaps a member of the BNP?

  • Slack Alice

    A very hope-filled piece of writing. Alas, there do not seem to be many muslims on the streets of France showing their solidarity with their non-muslim neighbours.

  • bluedog

    Your Grace, a thought for the day. Is it just a coincidence that the aggressively secular French Republic is now host to the largest Muslim population in Europe? Most communicants will agree that secularism leaves a vacuum, and in the post-modern world where the Left has marginalised Christianity, that vacuum is filled by Islam. It could be argued that by eradicating Christianity from every aspect of their state, the French have created the hell they are now enduring. After all, if the French state proclaimed Christianity, the Muslims would be less likely to have embarked on such an uninhibited expansion within France.

    • Anton

      No it is not a coincidence.

      A question that Christians should be asking themselves is why Jesus Christ, who has all authority in heaven and on earth, is permitting the rise of Islam in the West although it denies His divinity.

      The answer in my opinion is impending judgement on the West.

      For what?

      Look at what sins the West has turned to at the same time as Islam has risen here – sins that were much less before that.

      Family breakdown.

      If you doubt this, read the magisterial study “Sex and Culture” by JD Unwin published between the wars. Unwin found that every culture that went promiscuous and wrecked its family stability fell within a short time (historically speaking). He looked at 80 cultures and found no exceptions. He was secular and proposed a weird Freudian explanation, but we are free to propose divine judgement.

      If our culture is committing suicide, why blame Muslims for administering the coup de grace? We need to get our act together. And soon. Most importantly we need the tax-and-welfare system to cease subsidising the consequences of sexual immorality, which is pouring fuel on flames.

      I believe this is impossible in a one-adult-one-vote democracy and I would prefer a massive financial crash that wrecks the Welfare State, and forces people to start taking responsibility for themselves again, than an Islamic revolution. I believe that there are no other alternatives, but the cultural cost of sin is high and will have to be paid.

      Secular people think that their way of life is better than the Islamic way of life. That is not Christ/God’s view. Promiscuous secular society has yet to prove that it can last one full lifetime. Islam has been around for nearly 1400 years.

      • bluedog

        ‘I believe this is impossible in a one-adult-one-vote democracy and I would prefer a massive financial crash that wrecks the Welfare State, and forces people to start taking responsibility for themselves again, than an Islamic revolution’.

        Certainly there is nothing that will persuade the electorate to vote themselves a reduced level of benefits and entitlements. Therein may lie the demise of universal franchise, which has so far lasted slightly less than 100 years. The prospect of another hundred years would appear remote.

      • sarky

        Or it could be that our former empires contained alot of muslims.
        As for it going to the dogs because of sex, think it may be a tad more complex than that.

        • Anton

          There is more to family breakdown than promiscuity. You might consider reading Unwin before dismissing him.

          Yes our former Empires contained a lot of Muslims. That explanation and divine judgement are not incompatible explanations, merely explanations in different categories.

          • sarky

            Anton, I just wanted to point out that before you wreck the welfare state you might want to consider that the vast majority of it is spent on pensions and disability living allowence. Around 84bn, compared to the 4bn spent on jobseekers. So I look forward to all those pensioners and disabled people taking responsibility for themselves.

          • Anton

            It will be your responsibility and mine to look after them.

            Although the portion of tax that goes on public sector pensions is shocking it is not that for which God is bringing judgement; it is family breakdown greatly exacerbated by subsidy by the tax-and-welfare system. That is all I am interested in discussing here. If Islamists win a civil war here in a generation it will be because of the latter, and what price then anybody’s pension?

          • sarky

            It should be our responsibility, as it was their’s to care for the generation before them.
            I doubt god would judge us for family breakdown. If he existed, it would probably be that that existence is no longer recognised.

          • Anton

            Feel free to doubt, but whether God exists or not every society that has gone promiscuous the way ours has since the 1960s has fallen very soon after and it is incumbent on you to propose an explanation.

      • dannybhoy

        If God used other nations to punish His Chosen People when they stepped out of line or worshipped other gods, then there is no reason to suppose He won’t do the same with the Church..

        • Shadrach Fire

          I could concede that western Christianity might be in line for punishment for turning it’s back on God, but I don’t think it is.

          My good friend the late Arch Bishop Benson Idahosa from Nigeria said; after the fall of Communism at the end of the eighties, that the next Ism to fall will be Islam.

          We have not seen it yet, quite the reverse. But what is going on is making everyone aware, even the so called moderate Muslims, what Islam is really about. They cant say, Oh well we don’t believe that bit when it comes to the Violence. It’s part of the book. A Christian can’t say I only believe the New Testament.

          Their time is coming and coming fast. God has his ways and people will believe when they see with their own eyes.

          • len

            Islam has the seeds of its own destruction sown within itself(he who lives by the sword will die by the sword) but that does not bar Islam for being used as a judgement by God on a corrupt society (even a society which professes to be’ a Christian one’.

      • Martin

        Anton

        Indeed, that is what the second half of Romans 1 is about. Homosexuality is just a part of this punishment.

  • Anton

    Your Grace,

    I believe that one Muslim scholar who tried this kind of thing was killed in his university office.

    Critical scrutiny of the extant Islamic texts? Yes please; let us turn the “liberal Christian scholars” onto those texts as there is a much larger gap in time between Mohammed and early texts about him than between Jesus and the gospels and hopefully they will be a bit wiser now. Most liberals will self-censor and avoid the subject out of fear, however.

    One interesting study is Death of a Prophet by Stephen Shoemaker, who looks at the extant Byzantine manuscripts relating to the early Islamic invasion of the Byzantine empire by the first Muslims. It appears that this invasion was led by the founder of the movement, ie Mohammed (although he is not named). This claim is in conflict with the Islamic view that Mohammed died in 632AD before the invasion of the Holy Land.

    Then there is Robert Spencer’s provocatively titled book “Did Muhammad Exist?” which is a survey for the layman of scholarly work in this area, with references given for those who want fuller detail.

  • Old Blowers

    on a day when the world is taking in the atrocities in paris, our own MSM such as BBC and Sky News have muslim commentators giving their ‘take’ on the attack but more importantly, what this means for Islam in France and their fear.

    Will we see french suicide bombers going into muslim ghettos for a bit of revenge , the beheading of mrs khan and her offspring on the champs elysee or a string of muslims lined up beside the arc de triomphe and having a bit of lead pumped into their shirlies. NON!
    As soon as muslims commit atrocities, out come the media declaring their innocence and asking us to say 3 hail marys and 2 our fathers on their behalf.

    2 muslims were killed..
    1. A police officer, who happened to be a muslim in the wrong place at the wrong time, in a job that french and other minorities serve as officers. WHOOPDEEDO. So i am now forced to hear his brother speak about islamophobia and that Islam is a religion of peace and love. WTH!!! You could have fooled me and all other sensible people in the west. What about the other officers killed. What was THEIR religion or belief or lack of one???

    A muslim worker…WORKING IN A JEWISH BUSINESS ..Ernst will say it again.. A muslim worker working in a JEWISH business ushered 15 people into a large fridge. The story is NOT that the employee was muslim but the employer was JEWISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Imagine a muslim employer employing a jewish worker..It don’t happen, yet the muslim is the hero so all muslims are REDEEMED with his implied heroism.

    Off to bed, utterly sickened by what has been manipulated as a story by our ‘heroic’ MSM in PARIS. #Je suis bourré et énervé.

    Nighty night, dont let the MSM fright

    • hope4all

      so you’re pi$%#@ off because only one muslim was killed and his brother refuses to blame islam and doesn’t convert to christianity.
      you’re pissed off because jews employ muslims and why all muslims are not eternally grateful to all jews.
      you’re pissed off because the french are too weak to annihilate every muslim,even after these atrocities.
      and you call yourself a christian.methinks jesus wont even spit on you.

      • len

        It seems the greatest danger to Muslims is …other Muslims.“Some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948,
        of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting
        Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over
        90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow
        Muslims.”

        • hope4all

          and these numbers are from where…blown out of your a**.
          ok so that makes them factual for you.
          how many christians died ww1 &ww2 alone.
          lets ignore the others for now.how many muslims were involved in the killings.

      • Old Blowers

        Your blatant misdirection towards my very specific comments is very common and defined in the standard muslim victimhood
        dictionary (Answer 5 to infidel : Just smear them. We have no genuine answers of reply!) and is perpetually stated by you ‘moderates’ that struggle to grasp the obvious arguments/critiques/tensions stated in plain english.

        Too simplistic to get into that pathetic shell called a noggin, was it fella.

        I am pi$%#@ off by by our MSM that never miss an opportunity to give right on Achmeds such as yourself a get out clause from an atrocity that Allah supposedly never desired (yet he littered commands monotonously throughout the koran stating he did) and authorised Mohammed (that peace loving camel jockey ) to preach peaceful behaviour towards those offended by others who DO NOT BELIEVE in Allah or Mohammed by striking off their heads..ps, bombs had not been invented yet or he would have had them stated in the koran and had them strapped on poor deluded numpties who should have known but would’nt have acted any differently, tad like their modern deluded brethren.

        The koran as nothing more than a wet dream had by an illiterate arab warlord whilst resting his head on a camel urine stained dune circa 600 ad.

        Do read what I said and regurgitate properly.

        Theres a fine numpty. (*Allah Whose Snackbar* as you say)

        E S Blofeld.

        ps

        You sound more like a liberal left wing tit masquerading as something else rather than a muslim Sh ite

    • dannybhoy

      Old Blowers,
      I am a bit concerned that you might put your recovery in jeopardy by raising your blood pressure so..
      (Would it be rude to ask whether your ill health is recuperative, terminal or like mine, (COPD) a battle to maintain the status quo?)
      Having seen how pleased people are to see you back- perhaps you owe a lot of lot of money?- it would be good to know what to pray for.
      I have to warn you that I attend an Anglican church with an excellent record for remembering people in prayer, but not so many positive results… 🙂

    • Cressida de Nova

      You have raised a couple of good points here…and I am not referring to those on the end of your little devil horns…It has all turned into a bit of a soap opera with the Muslims being victims and heros as well.

  • lord acton

    I read the entire main Wikipedia article about Mohammed today. Unlike every other figure the criticism section is unbelievable short and says “he has been criticized for…” Passive voice. Even his holiness Barack Obama gets more criticism from his media apostles.

  • It’s very interesting what Rupert Murdoch has said, he makes a good point
    that all Muslims must take responsibility for the actions of terrorists until the ‘jihadist cancer’ is destroyed.

    He went on ‘Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and
    destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.’

    He then maintained his stance, telling more than 500,000 followers that
    ‘political correctness’ made for ‘denial and hypocrisy’.

    Of course he’s upset the liberal lefties. But someone had to take a
    stand and start a proper debate off.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2904914/Anger-Rupert-Murdoch-says-Muslims-held-responsible-terror-attacks-France.html#ixzz3OTKTfbjM

    • Linus

      Hypocrisy. If you want all Muslims to take responsibility for the jihadist cancer, then why won’t you take responsibility for the Christian fundamentalist cancer?

      Westboro Baptist Church and their sickening homophobia. Manif Pour Tous Catholics who attack gay people on the streets of Paris. Ugandan Christians who want to judicially murder gay people in their country. South African Christians who punish lesbians with “corrective rape”.

      “But none of these people are real Christians!” I’m sure you’ll say. So why are jihadists real Muslims?

      In my opinion ALL believers contribute to violence and murder. But to single out one group of them for criticism without acknowledging the transgressions of your own faith is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

      Set your own house in order before telling the world how evil your neighbour is.

      • Dreadnaught

        What a drama queen!

        • Uncle Brian

          Linus is just looking for somebody he can blame for his misfortunes, real or imagined.

          • Dreadnaught

            Just as much as I am puzzled by why some people self-identify as a Muslim, a Jew a Christian or whatever before all else other than straight forward nationality, I find primary self-identification by sexual orientation totally absurd.

          • William Lewis

            You have something there I think Dreadnaught. It is distinctly odd that a man would base his identity on his lust for other men. But, given that, it is hardly surprising that accusations of homophobia, insanity and mental illness start to appear left, right and centre.

            As to self-identifying as a Christian: the order of God, family and country as always served us well, I would say. 🙂

      • len

        There is an element of truth in your comment I certainly would not want to be associated with some of the things that go on (past and present in the name of Christianity .So what`s the answer?.
        If we study the teachings of the originators of each religion (Islam and Christianity (in this instance) Jesus Christ and Mohammed and strictly follow these teachings alone we will arrive at a true interpretation of each religion..
        We should not allow people who do not adhere to the words of the founder of each religion to define that religion.
        The commandments of |Jesus Christ seem pretty simple(Love your enemies) as do the instructions of Mohammed ( “strike off their heads”) etc.

      • I wonder who’s being a hypocrite.

        I thought you were all in favour of the ‘right to offend’? Isn’t that just what Westboro Baptist Church is exercising? Or does that right only apply to secularists? The fact is that all other churches that I’m aware of have condemned them, but they’re not breaking the law and to compare them to mass murderers is maybe a little strong.

        I am the last person to support Roman Catholics, but Manif pour Tous is composed of all sorts of people.

        http://www.lamanifpourtous.fr/en/who-are-we/co-organizing-associations
        Also, where have Manif pous Tous instigated or supported violence against homosexuals?

        • Dreadnaught

          Or does that right only apply to secularists?

          Objection your Honour!

          That should be … ‘apply only to you Linus’ – Full Stop. Secularists can also be theists, atheists or agnostics; they are not an homogenous group of automitons.

        • Politically__Incorrect

          “I thought you were all in favour of the ‘right to offend’?”
          No, the right to “offend” only applies to socialists and liberals. For anyone else to offend it’s “hate crime”.

      • dannybhoy

        Linus,
        Westboro Baptist Church is not what I or many here would call a church true to the teachings of Christ. I am rather surprised that you would not realise this, seeing as no one here has addressed you personally in any terms remotely similar to those used by that rather awful church.
        It undermines your credibility as a rational critic of Christianity not to know the difference.
        Perhaps if you took the time to read the Bible, especially the New Testament you might have a better understanding.
        In your own circle of friends and acquaintances there will be an unspoken moral code of conduct; what is acceptable and what is not.
        However relative and however non judgmental, human beings can only relate to each other through a set of rules governing behaviour.

        Grab a plate of croissants, sit down and have a read of Ist Corinthians 13..

        (The Way of Love)
        “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

        4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

        8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

        13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Yes, those Quaker suicide bombers are a real problem…thanks for warning us.

        • Pubcrawler

          And here’s me thinking it was the Baha’is we had to worry about.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Bombing raids by Yogic flyers…

        • sarky

          Porridge oats everywhere. What a mess.

      • The Explorer

        “None of these people are real Christians!” So why are jihadists real Muslims?
        The New Testament does not tell you that you can beat your wife. The Koran does. The NT does not tell you to kill those who leave the faith (those who did so in the past were not following the NT). The Koran/hadiths do. The NT does not tell you that you own the women whom your right hand possesses. (ie, captured in war.) The Koran does. The NT does not tell you to smite unbelievers on the neck. The Koran does. The NT does not call on stones hiding Jews to move aside so that those behind them can be killed by Muslims. Guess where you’ll find that?
        You have to hand it to Linus, though. He does get discussion going. Any time he makes a post, the alerts showing responses must come thick and fast.

        • carl jacobs

          I must ask, Explorer.

          Why would you interact with someone whose opening proposition is that you are the victim of psychosis?

          • The Explorer

            For the benefit of other readers. The point made is one frequently raised, and is therefore worth answering: even if the individual making it isn’t.

            And, after all, this isn’t about something like the existence of God. I simply made a series of factual statements that can be verified by reference to the texts in question.

          • carl jacobs

            Explorer

            Perhaps. Most of his comments could be replaced with “J’accuse!” and consist of little more than acidic stereotypes connected in sequence. Is there really that much to respond to?

            Linus isn’t here to engage. He is here to punish. The best way to deal with that attitude is to refuse to acknowledge it. He can’t get the satisfaction of striking out if he can’t get someone to respond. I have noticed an increasing level of disinterest in the responses he receives. That is a good thing. If he doesn’t change his attitude, he will see his posts start to slip into the ether unnoticed. That is exactly what he doesn’t want to happen. He wants to strike the nest, watch the hornets get angry, and laugh at the commotion he has caused.

            My advice would be to ignore him until he changes how he posts. There might be a good commenter in there somewhere. But that commenter won’t emerge if we keep playing his game.

          • CliveM

            “He I isn’t here to engage, he is here to punish”

            Actually he seems desperately needy to me. All his comments seem to be about provoking attention. I remember reading in a book about small children that a small child will get your attention, either good attention by behaving well, or if that fails bad attention by behaving badly. Linus is simply desperate for attention, so he has decided to go about it any way he can.

            In a child it’s understandable, in an adult it is simply sad and pathetic.

          • carl jacobs

            CliveM

            He is certainly here to provoke. But if you are correct that he is here to provoke attention, then that is all the more reason to ignore his comments until his attitude changes. That’s how you defeat attention-seeking tantrums in children. You ignore them.

          • CliveM

            Agree completely.

          • Linus

            You can’t ignore me. You’ve been trying for the past ten comments or so and still you’re talking about me.

            It’s actually a bit creepy. Like you’re obsessed with me or something. All that deep-seated Christian repression, anger and hatred finally finding a target, no?

            A word of advice: if you really want to ignore me, the way to do it is to refrain from commenting on my posts. Talking about me constantly as if I weren’t here just underlines your obsession with me.

            It’s like watching a group of girls in the playground trying to ignore the boy they have a crush on. “Ignore him!” they say to one another. “Yes, just ignore him!” “He’s not worth bothering with!” they cry, as they toss their heads provocatively and flutter their eyelids, secretly hoping that treating him mean will keep him keen.

            Sorry girls, but you just don’t have what it takes. My only interest in you is in exposing your viciousness for all to see so that others aren’t taken in by your very, very superficial charms. And in this I appear to be doing pretty well. What impartial observer coming to this site in quest of more information about your religion could fail to be repulsed by you?

          • Martin

            I think that far too much French is on this page today.

          • carl jacobs

            Martin

            What? You didn’t think “J’accuse!” was a clever way to make the point? I was rather pleased with it myself. That’s about all the French I know, however. I can count to three, I guess.

          • Martin

            😉

        • Cressida de Nova

          If this is true, why do Muslims call their religion, the religion of peace? It does not make sense.

          • Because ‘peace’ is the result of submission to God and following His will in all things. For Islam, this will be achieved by the world being forced to embrace Allah by following Muhammad and by the violent elimination of all those who resist or teach differently.

          • The Explorer

            No ‘if’ about it. I can give you the relevant suras if you want them. I’d say two reasons.
            1. ‘Taqiyya’. Allowable lying when dealing with the infidel. Reassure them with a message of peace to put them off guard before you overpower them.
            2. Islam IS a religion of peace. There will be peace when the war is over and all (those, that is, who have not been eliminated) are under the sway of Allah.

          • It makes perfect sense. It’s called telling lies.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            It is the Peace of the tomb…when all are dead there will be peace

        • Linus

          You conveniently ignore the genocidal accounts in the Old Testament. The Bible advocates mass slaughter as a means of dealing with your enemies. It also suggests you’ll be happy if you dash their children against rocks. It requires women to marry their rapists. It recommends self-mutilation as a remedy for sin.

          The Bible is every bit as much of a psychotic’s handbook as the Quran or any other holy book. It’s inspired many Christians throughout history to slaughter the infidel just as the Quran has inspired many Muslims to do the same.

          All religions have blood on their hands and Christianity is one of the worst.

          • The Explorer

            Ever heard of the New Covenant?

          • The Explorer

            1. Ever heard of hyperbole? 2. Ever heard of the New Covenant? And Christianity would have to go it some to match Communism’s 100 million dead. A good Marxist dictator could kill more people in an afternoon than the Inquisition managed in its entire history. Say the human race has blood on its hands, and I’d agree. After all, the human race is fallen.

          • Linus

            Genocide as a construction technique, eh?

            So did God say “Hmmm, I wonder how I can get my chosen people to behave themselves … I know! I’ll create a few Canaanites and Midianites and let the Jews slaughter them. They can slake their thirst for aggression that way and then they won’t feel the need to defy my holy rules about shellfish and mixed fibre clothing. Because human life and suffering count for nothing as long as I get my way over a few pointless and arbitrary rules.”

            And that’s your idea of a compassionate God, is it? Does a change of the rules at half time justify the take-no-prisoners strategy of the first half of the game?

            Sounds more like a serial killer trying to pass himself off as a born again peace-and-love hippie to me.

          • The Explorer

            Other readers (and they are the only reason for my engaging in this discussion) please note that Linus has failed to address my points about differences between the NT and the Koran. He has simply launched into an attack on the Old Testament. He has likewise failed to address my point about hyperbole.
            A couple of little teasers for Linus.
            1. In the Book of Judges, there are references to not dealing with the Canaanites, and to destroying their shrines. (Child sacrifice, remember.) How come, if the Canaanites had been exterminated already?
            2. There might be spiritual discipline and health issues involved with shellfish, but the prohibition on mixed fibres is more difficult. If it isn’t simply the easy option of being arbitrary and pointless, then what might be its symbolic significance?
            I have not addressed Linus’ point about dashing out babies’ brains; and, although it is not relevant to differences between the NT and the Koran, I shall do so. LInus, is, of course, referring to Psalm 137, verse 9. It is not a commandment from God: it is a very human reaction of resentment and frustration at the Babylonian Captivity. Linus may not be involved in the Captivity, but he certainly seems to know about the sentiments.

          • Linus

            1. Not every European Jew was exterminated by the Nazis, yet we still refer to the Shoah as a genocide. Not every Tutsi was massacred in Rwanda, but we still refer to that terrible event as a genocide.

            In typical Christian fashion you’re trying to turn the issue into a black and white, all or nothing proposition. Your argument seems to be that if even one single Canaanite family survived to perpetuate their way of life, God can’t be a genocidal maniac. Wrong. Genocide is a murderous assault on a specific people in which many, but not necessarily all or even most of them, are eliminated. God as described in the Old Testament is the archetypal genocidal maniac. He set the ball rolling and has been imitated by despots and madmen ever since.

            2. I’ll leave you to work out the meaning of God’s Deuteronomy dress code. It obviously must be critical to the fulfillment of his “plan” or he would never have imposed it. Perhaps wool and linen in close proximity set up a discordant vibration in some remote celestial dimension, a bit like the heavenly equivalent of running your fingernails down a blackboard. Or do the molecules interact and release a compound as yet unknown to human science that has the effect of suppressing the piety and obedience centres of the brain?

            Whatever it is, if God came up with the ban, it must be important, right? Never mind that it makes no logical sense. Ours is not to question why, but simply to obey.

            Regarding the differences between the Bible and Quran, comparing one imaginary faith to another is a futile exercise. Both are fictional. Both have been guilty of provoking massacres. Both are used as excuses for oppression and discrimination. Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin, which can’t buy you anything except fake certainty and the false hope of paradise to come. Better spend your money on drugs or alcohol if escapism is what you’re looking for. At least then you’ll get tangible results rather than having to pretend that imaginary love from an imaginary deity makes up for everything else you lack in life.

            And when it comes to hyperbole, where do we draw the line? Are the Old Testament accounts of slaughter and smiting just hyperbole? So why aren’t the New Testament accounts of Jesus’s miracles hyperbole too? Did he raise Lazarus from the dead, or just wake him from a deep sleep? Was he himself resurrected, or did he merely snap out of a stress and shock-induced catatonic state brought on by his ill treatment on the cross?

            If there’s even a single use of hyperbole in the Bible then the whole thing is suspect.

          • The Explorer

            You’ve got to hand it to Linus.; he comes back fighting!
            1. You defined genocide as “mass slaughter.” I took ‘mass’ to mean ‘entire’. Anyway, lots of Canaanites survived. I would refer you to the work of Nicholas Wolterstorff if you wish to research this point.
            2. Mixed fibres? How about a reminder to keep separate from the Canaanites?
            3. Whether the Bible and Qur’an are true or fictional is irrelevant in this instance. I myself think Quetzalcoatl was fictional, but believers carried out daily human sacrifices. Beliefs have consequences. MY point is that the Bible and the Qur’an have different beliefs that, if followed, lead to different ways of life.
            4. Hyperbole need not mean that something did not happen: merely that the account might have been exaggerated for effect.
            5. I’m afraid I cannot agree with your final sentiment. Unlike the Qur’an, the Bible has multiple authors (although one overall divine Editor), multiple styles, and multiple types of writing. Hyperbole in one section need not mean hyperbole in another. I would, however, concede a need for training in interpretation.

          • Linus

            So the ban on mixed fibre clothing was an early and divinely inspired form of apartheid, was it?

            And this is part of Christianity’s canon? That it used to be OK to shun your neighbor and then massacre him, but now you have to be nice to him because God has changed the rules.

            What you’re telling me is that you’re basically worshipping a reformed serial killer. Yet you dare to criticize Islam for all the violence and oppression you say it preaches. Where they tread, so did you once. When you murdered for your god, it was holy. when they murder for theirs, it’s evil.

            And what’s really amazing is you just can’t see what a hypocrite this makes you…

          • The Explorer

            1. Well, when your neighbours practise sacred prostitution and child sacrifice, you might be a tad wary of adopting their habits.
            2. “part of Christianity’s canon.” If you mean book, yes. If you mean principle, no. Historical interest only. Superseded by the New Covenant.
            3. You’d rather I worshipped an UNreformed serial killer?
            4. “The violence and oppression you say it preaches.” Let’s not confuse fact and opinion here. Get your Qur’an, and we can go through the suras I cited. Then you can show me the equivalents in the New Testament. That will bring us back to where this discussion started.

          • Linus

            I don’t possess a Quran. I don’t possess a Bible either. I suppose I could take a look at online versions, but why would I bother? I have no interest in reading books full of superstitious mumbo-jumbo, comparing them and then arriving at a judgment about which religion is the worst. They’re both equally fictional, so does it really matter if one is slightly more bloodthirsty than the other?

          • The Explorer

            Here we go round the mulberry bush. Discussion over, then. Other readers, I rest my case. Q.E.D.

          • Linus

            I don’t possess a copy of the Hobbit either. I don’t need to in order to know that Hobbits and wizards and dragons are entirely fictional and exist only in the imaginations of those foolish enough to believe that what they read must be real.

      • Linus, you really should seek assistance with this self absorption. You are displaying worrying psychological traits.

        In December 2, 2004: a study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry revealed that 43% of gays, lesbians and bisexuals have some form of mental disorder. The study surveyed 1285 respondents from these groups.

        Mental problems included anxiety, sleep disturbance, panic attacks, depressive moods or thoughts, problems with memory or concentration and compulsive behaviour or obsessive thoughts. The study also found that 31% of respondents had also attempted suicide.

        • Inspector General

          It’s true Linus Jack used to be a lunatic until he found Christ…

        • Linus

          In June 2002 the Journal of Transcultural Psychology published an article directly linking genital self-mutilation to monotheistic religious belief. Termed “Jerusalem Syndrome”, the most likely sufferers are religiously obsessive Christian males with schizophrenic and/or autistic tendencies.

          Do make sure there are no sharp knives in the vicinity when you’re on the Internet, won’t you Jack? I would hate for you to stumble across images of scantily clad ladies and feel you had cut off sin at its source.

          Of course, I say “scantily clad ladies”, but I really don’t know what floats Jack’s boat. His obsession with trying to convince me, a gay man, that Christianity is more than a psychotic delusion could just be transference for all I know. Maybe he’s using me as a means to try to convince himself.

          How’s that for armchair psychiatric analysis? What about the theory that Jack is a deeply repressed gay man with one hand on his keyboard and the other wrapped around a carving knife? If his keyboard hand can convince me of the necessity to repent, his other hand can let go of the knife. But the more I resist, the tighter he grips the blade and the closer it creeps towards sensitive territory.

          Of course it all stems from the time his mother suprised him in the bathroom with a bar of soap and an egg whisk when he was 12 years old, but some scars run too deep to be healed and he’s probably gone through decades of Courage Apostolate counseling to no avail. So now all that stands between him and self-inflicted gender reassignment surgery is my salvation.

          Keep on trying, Jack. You might save both it and me yet. If not though, well there’s no male or female in heaven, is there? So just look upon it as a foretaste of paradise.

          • Linus, you must not misrepresent research papers. This discredits you and makes you look foolish. The brief article you cite made no conclusions about those most vulnerable. It simply used one ‘born again’ evangelical Christian, with a previous history of psychosis, as an illustrative example. Really, its a poor piece of speculation and offers nothing new.

            “Jerusalem Syndrome” is not restricted at all to religiously obsessive Christian males with schizophrenic and/or autistic tendencies. Where did you drag that up from? It is a group of mental phenomena involving the presence of either religiously themed obsessive ideas, delusions or other psychosis-like experiences that are triggered by a visit to the city of Jerusalem. It is not endemic to one single religion or denomination but has affected Jews, Christians and Muslims of many different backgrounds.

            Now genital self mutilation is rare but is an interesting phenomena – closely related to self-harming in general. Resolution of sexual and identity conflict, control of or defense against sexual urges, elevation of the status of manhood and a substitution for sacrifice, have all been suggested as explanations. Guilt and punishment are common underlying themes too. You know, people who feel bad about themselves, unclear or guilty about their sexual identity and a sense of disgust over their urges/sexuality.
            Really all you’ve displayed here is a rather juvenile attempt at ‘hitting back’. Sadly, your ignorance in the field of psychology and psychiatry has let you down. Badly. Even your careful script and sentence construction has suffered. It’s not up to your usual standard. It’s just to laboured.
            As for your salvation. That’s between you and God. No, Jack was just identifying very obvious ‘tells’ in your posts suggestive of sexual identity confusions and their possible roots in what you’ve shown to be, let’s say, “tensions” between you, between your parents and, in all likelihood, there is a sister is involved too.
            So rest east about Jack, Linus. He’s not trying to convert you. And, just by way of interest, As for yourself, given the nature of the research paper you shared, Jack suggests there is now even more reason for you to seek professional help. And do not go to Jerusalem on your ‘honeymoon’.

          • Linus

            You really felt it necessary to spend THAT much time rebutting my clearly tongue-in-cheek claims, did you?

            I’m starting to think this means you really do have something to hide. Would anyone who didn’t have a fundamentally unstable psyche and deep-rooted ego issues go to such lengths to justify himself?

            My theory is sounding more and more plausible. Only I think there’s probably a sister involved somewhere along the line. Elder, probably. Passive/aggressive too. Did she taunt you mercilessly? Poor Jack. So now you have to take out your pent-up frustrations on someone you perceive to be even lower than you in your childish pecking order, no? If you bash the homo, everyone else will join in and leave you alone, won’t they?

            Aren’t Christians lovely people?

          • Linus, Jack had to correct your clumsy misrepresentation of that obscure research paper. It could have disturbed the ‘silent reader’. This vain attempt to divert attention from your clumsy effort discredits you further. You really must focus on your own disorder and these unresolved conflicts.

            In the 1960’s and 1970’s, before it became politically incorrect to do so, psychologists were clear. Homosexuality was correlated with discernable psychosexual immaturity, confusion over sexual role and fear of sexuality, all stemming from early family problems. Same sex attraction was accepted as pathological. On a personal level, it results in anxiety, sleep disturbance, panic attacks, depressive moods or thoughts, problems with memory or concentration and compulsive behaviour, obsessive thoughts, self harm and suicidal thoughts.

            These troubles in the psych are compensated for in different ways. One strategy is to blame society or religion for the affliction. Change the world to accommodate “me”. Then, like you, there’s adopting the feminine ‘gender’ – to try to become the ‘woman’ you’re afraid to approach. Another, of course, is the grossly exaggerated ‘masculinity’ displayed by some.

          • Linus

            You’re becoming a parody of yourself, Sad and Angry Jack.

            In an earlier age you’d probably have screamed “demon!” at me and be chanting hysterical prayers over my head in an attempt at exorcism.

            Now you’re reduced to playing the amateur psychiatrist in the hope that trying to sound vaguely scientific will persuade the more gullible readers here that you know what you’re talking about.

            But we know the truth, don’t we? Jack is nothing but a bitter old man, so enraged and emasculated by the collapse of his religion and his antiquated social values that all he can do is spit venom and insults at anyone he deems to be to blame.

            As a gay man, I’m one of the first in the firing line. But I imagine women bishops will get their share too. And the divorced and remarried. And anyone else who doesn’t conform to his narrow ideal of moral behavior.

            Indeed the only group of sinners who seem to get off lightly when Jack starts to pronounce from on high are the gluttons. I wonder why this is? Could it be that he’s afraid to analyze himself for fear of what he might find?

          • Lol …. now you’re unravelling, Linus. Jack is neither angry nor troubled by the decline in Christianity. It concerns him but it is all in God’s Hands.

            Very interesting you’re so preoccupied with body image and revolted by fat people and bodily processes.

          • Linus

            In my limited experience the morbidly obese seem to be the most preoccupied with body image and bodily processes. They don’t really have much of a choice considering they’re confronted with the inconvenience of excess weight every day of their lives. Moving around, buying clothing, getting medical treatment … all these things focus attention on their size in a way they never do for the slim and trim.

            Perhaps this is why they never want to talk about it. It’s too sensitive an issue for them. And perhaps this is why they criticize anyone who isn’t overweight and accuse them of being vain and obsessed with the way they look.

            I mean, the very term used to describe the fat man’s condition – MORBID obesity – should tell us everything we need to know about where the real pathology lies.

      • Shadrach Fire

        The difference is that true Christians respond according to the scriptures and that means no unprovoked violence. Jihadist just follow what is in the Quran.

      • Martin

        Linus

        If you were to spend some time comparing the Bible & the Qur’an you would find that while the Bible commands Christians to ‘turn the other cheek’ the Qur’an commands that those who insult the prophet be put to death.

        That is why those of Westboro Baptist Church are a small minority.

        • sarky

          What about an eye for an eye?

          • LoveMeIamALiberal

            Pay attention. Matthew 5:38:

            “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39″But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

          • Martin

            LMIAAL

            Thank you for saving me that effort, not that I imagine Sarky will take a bit of notice.

            Of course the ‘eye for an eye’ was a limitation on recompense that in other nations could see lives being taken for a comparatively minor injury.

      • Bollocks, Linus, pure Dawkins Parrot bollocks.

        How many people did Westboro Baptist church kill? To the nearest 10?

      • Oh! come now those you mention are not on the same scale as Islam. Of course good Christians do rally against them and what they do, it just does not get reported.

    • Dreadnaught

      Muslim ‘Cleric Mizanur Rahman was jailed for six years in
      2007 after calling for – ” British soldiers to be brought back from Iraq in
      bodybags.” Now he manages the Siddeeq Academy in Tower Hamlets, an Islamic tuition centre in East London: no prizes for knowing what he is teaching there.
      The UK allows this man to run an Islamic tuition centre as he defends the
      French atrocities ‘insulting Islam…they can’t expect a different result’ and
      streams his opinions in live broadcasts on line to thousands of Muslims in
      Britain. That’s his right to freedom of speech but that is not a reason for MI5
      not to hold his feet to the fire or for the police not to make him Public Enemy
      number whatever.

      For as much as I dislike the latter-day megalomaniac Rupert
      Murdoch, and as Marie1789 notes, he nails it and it’s worth repeating:

      ‘Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they
      recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held
      responsible’.

      The British Government and Security Service should take note that
      what happened in France could happen here unless they drop appeasing political correctness and take hard action NOW.

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        One must be permitted to observe: the majority of Frenchmen in 1789 probably wanted to curb the excesses of absolutism, achieve a constitutional settlement and then get on with their lives, but then came the fanatics, the Jacobins and the Terror: no doubt the majority of Germans were appalled by the street violence of the Nazis, but did nothing to protest, and so we have mass murder on an industrial scale; ordinary Russians in their millions were peaceful and got on with life, but Stalin and his communist thugs murdered over 20 million of them – all of these fanatics motivated by an ideology. Islam is as much an ideology as a religion, i.e. it has political aims which few members of the bien pensant give credence to. Silent majorities on the whole, are taken over by fanatics – at least that’s my reading of history ( I haven’t even mention Mao Tse-tung and Pol Pot, but I think they fit in with my argument). So…calling for ‘peace-loving, ordinary moslems to rein in the fundamentalists is not going to work. At all. Ever. Neither, I fear is Christian outreach and multi-faith dialogue…just ask the Sultan of Brunei who ‘banned’ Christmas. I fear for the future.

        • dannybhoy

          ” Silent majorities on the whole, are taken over by fanatics – at least
          that’s my reading of history ( I haven’t even mention Mao Tse-tung and
          Pol Pot, but I think they fit in with my argument).”

          In my view you are quite right. In many ways the behaviour of us humans resembles that of the plains of Serengeti..
          The silent majority are the vast herds of wildebeest and buffalo and zebra. Content to graze and gaze. Easily panicked, quick to forget why they panicked, and quick to forget their nearest and dearest taken by predators.
          If they do reflect, it’s brief gratitude that it wasn’t them this time…. 🙂
          The only way a revolution is provoked is when the masses run out of grass. If you want incremental change that will be supplied by politicians….
          and it’ll be at your expense not theirs.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Thank you dear dannybhoy… I think your analogy is most pertinent.

          • dannybhoy

            Puffs out chest
            (loses a few feathers in the process.)

        • Dreadnaught

          Islamic armed forces have declared WAR on us. Where are the armed ‘peace loving’ Muslim forces that should be lining up to defeat that ‘small minority’ they would like us to believe they condemn.
          In any war, as in WW2 we took our share of casualties but fought back. We can’t stop terror attacks happening. We have to accept that we will take military and civilian casualties and that we are all in the front line.
          If we value our children’s freedom the fight must not be made so easily one sided by having open borders and unlimited Islamic expansion and appeasement.
          The trouble is we are in denial that we are even in a war.

          • Anton

            We are not in denial that we are in a war, for the “war on terror” has been a catchphrase for a decade now. We are in denial about what the enemy is.

          • Dreadnaught

            Fair comment; but that was Bush’s case for the war in Iraq and we lost through his overbearing stupidity and Hollywood image of world reality.
            We are in a different time and theatre of complexity. The peace and security which has to be won here in Europe again, should be fought not with words from passing fly-by-night politicians but with straight talking, hard punitive action delivered by the military and the enemy dispatched: even if it means temporarily suspending freedoms we take for granted.
            UK/European politicians and Popes should begin by delivering an ultimatum to all Muslims to reform their religion otherwise get off this continent.

            The attacks in France didn’t strike at Charlie Hebdo for lampooning Islam – they struck at the heart Democracy itself and we should respond accordingly.

          • CliveM

            Re your last paragraph. Completely agree.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            War….yes I suppose it is or rather just the latest manifestation of a long, long war that saw Constantinople fall. We will lose, because we are no longer prepared to fight fire with fire. We live in a Brave New World of dialogue and outreach, ersatz free speech and surveillance. We are taught to equate the Renaissance, Enlightenment and all the preceded and followed with child brides, honour killings. predatory grooming of young people and the subjugation of women and glory in diversity and cultural enrichment.

        • Shadrach Fire

          “Islam is as much an ideology as a religion” I like that Mrs P.
          BTW Did you burn the cakes whilst you wrote that?

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            No dear Shadrach, but he cook might have…must go down and check!

        • CliveM

          Well put, very well put. Award yourself a Chocolate Hob nob.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I will dear Clive, and thank you for those kind words…

    • dannybhoy

      Marie,
      I won’t call it a cancer, but I will call it an inevitable outworking of the teachings of Islam which we talked about the other day. Most Muslims don’t want to go this way, but the seeds are there in Islam.
      This is the dilemma that Old Blowers is taking about, and as a nationalist I would say that it wouldn’t be a problem in the West if our politicians hadn’t embraced the idea of multiculturalism.

      • “Most Muslims don’t want to go this way.”

        Danny on this occasion I can’t really agree with you.
        It is only the thin veil of western civilisation that is preventing them from being like the other unruly, violent middle eastern countries. We see how they have reverted to type after the west has ‘liberated’ them in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab Spring countries.

        • dannybhoy

          Marie1797
          “The seeds are there in Islam.”
          I still think that Muslims came here for peace and opportunity to escape poverty or danger in their homelands.
          But of course the values and beliefs that shaped them came too.

    • Merchantman

      There has to be some method to wean these people off their drug. This is what happened to the German populous. Cold Turkey for all kind of thing.
      Of course the liberal left doesn’t understand, they think everyone is basically good.

      • Inspector General

        Once heard a radio documentary about an American chap (…a Jewish lawyer…) who was commissioned by the CIA to oversee ‘denazification’ of the population in 1945. When his Washington superiors asked him to report progress, he said that he couldn’t find any, and neither could any of his colleagues in the field. That is the difference.

  • Inspector General

    The apologists are here. Listening to the radio today, we are to be assured that only a tiny minority are real muslims. Just as well we allow them mosques in the West. Or we wouldn’t have any…

  • Inspector General

    On the plus side, we need Islam in the West to some degree. To know good, we must have bad. Islam does bad very well. The alternative of not having bad is that we stagnate and corrupt. An example of stagnation is found in creeping socialism, where we are apparently all the same. Discuss this with some work dodger spending his benefits down the pub if you don’t believe the Inspector. An example of corruption is same sex marriage. A very good example indeed.

    • dannybhoy

      I reject your argument on moral and physical grounds. I would assert that we have enough problems created by our own people…
      You aren’t in charge of recruitment in the NHS by any chance?

      • Inspector General

        How dare you, sir !!

        • dannybhoy

          Aaa-ha!
          The immediate reaction of the guilty is to express outrage…

          • Inspector General

            No it damn well isn’t !!

          • dannybhoy

            Go on, admit it!
            You’re a recruiter for the NHS. your real name is Claud and you play ping pong for the Cheltenham branch of Oddfellows…

          • Inspector General

            {AHEM} Well, must be going. Time for one’s constitutional…

          • dannybhoy

            🙂

      • Anton

        NHS is costly for 2 reasons, one good and one bad. The good reason is that more can be done for people as medicine advances. The bad reason is that there are 4 times as many administrators per doctor/nurse in the NHS than in the private sector.

        • dannybhoy

          The NHS gets too much interference from governments. In fact governments interfere in too many things that would work perfectly well of only they were left alone to run themselves. In fact governments often create more more problems than they solve..

        • Martin

          Anton

          We also waste money on abortions on the one side and fertility treatment on the other. To say nothing of ‘gender reassignment!

          • Anton

            Dead right we do and I don’t approve. But I’m talking about the really significant components of the NHS budget and those aren’t.

    • Dreadnaught

      We know the North Korean dictator is a badUN without the need to invite him here.

      • dannybhoy

        “without the need to invite him here”
        But there are rumours that one of his hobbies is surgery, and the NHS is very short of surgeons…
        I am sure that if Dr Mengele were still alive NHS recruiters would find reasons to justify offering him a generous relocation package and a post at hospital with state of the art research facilities..

        • Dreadnaught

          I realise of course (and good for you) you are making a light hearted if deeply dark comment, I wish I could reciprocate but I’m finding it increasingly difficult (most of the time) to retain a sense of humour while enduring the daily horrors that have been in and around us for the past 20 years.

          • dannybhoy

            That humour is one of the things that kept Tommy Atkins going in various hellholes over the centuries…
            In this clip from “Zulu” (in which we see The Inspector and Mrs. Proudie aborting a joint WI and NHS recruiting mission amongst the local tribesmen)
            we see a young soldier asking the question, “Why?”
            and the redoubtable Colour Sergeant’s humorous response…

            Believe me, if they’d nave me this old man would bear arms in defence of his nation.,.

          • Dreadnaught

            Believe me Dan, I have a great sense of humour and I while hate no man, I would happily take up arms to neutralise the 5thColumnist Jihadis skulking in our midst if so legallly directed.
            ‘You were only supposed to blow their bloody heads off’ Ooops!

          • dannybhoy

            Me too Dreadnaught.
            I believe in the concept of the Just War, and whilst I like to be fair to all sides, I would argue that if you know somebody wants to kill you, your wife and your kids and change your country into another third rate, poor, oppressive, backwards Islamic nation,
            then my answer is that you shoot them.
            No trials, no prisons, shoot them.

          • CliveM

            DB

            my we are getting very blood thirsty!

          • dannybhoy

            🙂
            I’ve always accepted that “all it takes for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing” young Clive.
            Most certainly in defence of all I hold dear and worth preserving I would fight.

          • CliveM

            Most right minded people would fight to preserve what you hold dear. Just never underestimate what it takes to kill.

          • Martin

            Dreadnaught

            Those daily horrors are the result of our abandoning God.

          • Dreadnaught

            Sounds very similar to the doctrine of Osama Bin Liner.

          • Fair comment, but the entity to whom Muslims refer as Allah is not the God of Jesus.

          • Martin

            Dreadnaught

            No it doesn’t.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      “To know good, we must have bad. Islam does bad very well.”
      true, but don’t forget we already have Cameron, clegg, Milliband, and easy-iron shirts

      • Inspector General

        Those despicables won’t make the end of this year…

    • “To know good, we must have bad.”

      Oh dear. More fag-packet theology, Inspector? Evil is the absence of good.. .

      • Anton

        “Evil is the absence of good.”

        I know what you mean, but this definition fails to capture the active aspect of evil. Evil is volitional, because Satan is a volitional being.

        • This is attributable St. Augustine of Hippo, who wrote:

          “And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil.

          For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils—that is, privations of the good which we call health—are accidents. Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are cured, they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else.”

          Reject good – God – and you’re left with evil.

      • Inspector General

        Given to the Inspector by a Carmelite priest when some schoolboy asked why if God was so powerful, He tolerated the devil and demons…

        • The Carmelite was probably talking about perception, Inspector, which is based on contrast. We do not need evil to know good. Good and evil are perhaps imperceptible to us in our fallen state. However, light has a physical presence of its own, darkness does not: Darkness appears when light is extinguished.

          • Inspector General

            One thinks he’ll side with the priest on this one, rather than a former member of the Communist party…

          • St Augustine and Saint Aquinas were never members of the Communist Party.

          • Inspector General

            Ah, should have ended previous with “…if that’s all right with you.)

          • Jack sometimes wonders whether you were unfortunate in encountering those who first formed your Catholic faith, whether you just paid insufficient attention or, and this seems most likely, that you were stubborn and wilful as a child.

          • Inspector General

            The young lad kept both eyes and ears as well as brain open and single mouth closed unless it was prudent to say something. It served him well then as it does now…

          • Somehow one doubts the young Inspector exercised prudence before opening his mouth. That, or he’s now making up for his past silence.

          • dannybhoy

            Fortunately I escaped the pitfalls of both scenarios…

          • carl jacobs

            Of course, Augustine of Hippo was never part of the RCC either. The monarchical RCC centered in Rome did not yet exist.

          • Was he a Christian, Carl? The Catholic Church has existed since Pentecost.

            Now Jack knows Calvinists like to lay claim to Augustine’s writings without the benefit of continuity in the faith provided by the Church and, as a result, have misunderstood him.

            Did you know Augustine recognized that the interpretation of the creation story is difficult and cautioned that we should be willing to change our mind about it as new information comes up? He took the view that Genesis was not a literal, historic account but that it carried a literal spiritual truth rather than being a literalist scientific truth.

            And Augustine also developed the concept of the Catholic Church as a spiritual City of God, distinct from the material Earthly City. He conceived of the church as a heavenly city, ruled by love, which will ultimately triumph over all earthly empires which are self-indulgent and ruled by pride. Augustine also taught that the bishops and priests of the Church are the successors of the Apostles and that their authority in the Church is God-given. All this helped build the mediaeval Catholic Church’s eschatology where Christ rules the earth spiritually through his triumphant church.

          • Martin

            HJ

            The attempts of the church in Rome to be recognised as the pre-eminent and ruling church date to after it’s apostasy, well after Pentecost. Indeed, the church didn’t exist until after Pentecost and even then the church in Jerusalem was the pre-eminent church until AD70.

            To my recollection Augustine had a problem understanding why God took so long over Creation, which is quite clearly, from biblical teaching, for our benefit. So Augustine isn’t any more infallible than the pope.

        • dannybhoy

          Inspector old chap,

          “Then
          he will also speak to those on his left, saying, ‘Get away from me, you
          who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his
          angels”
          Matthew 25:41

          “The
          Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and
          sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be
          tormented day and night forever and ever.”
          Revelation 20:10
          The Bible says only mankind can reproduce, spiritual beings can’t. The enemy of our souls and those who followed him have a limited time and they want to take as many people with them as they can before the end.

      • CliveM

        Thing is Happy Jack, we all know what the Inspector was getting at. Whilst the theology might be rough around the edges, it illustrated a point well.

      • Dominic Stockford

        No – this is found in the Bible.

        • Is it?

          • Dominic Stockford

            He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

          • The Explorer

            When evil is destroyed, after the Second Coming, will we – on the Inspector’s view – be able to know good?

          • Inspector General

            Who knows Explorer. Lets get over the pre second coming first.

            Anyone got a bit of fag packet for Jack. Think he’s going to need it to keep a page in the Bible to hand.

          • The Explorer

            Think about the 9/11 bombers. They needed intelligence, determination, skill, loyalty… all good qualities. You need good qualities in order to be bad. But do you need bad qualities in order to be good?

          • Inspector General

            Good qualities put to bad use. Being bad is to abuse, even qualities…

          • Dreadnaught

            And a death-wish.

          • The Explorer

            True.

          • Not quite the same, is it? We don’t need “the spirit of error” to know the “the spirit of truth”.

  • Shadrach Fire

    Inspector, I know a preacher at a conference who was most frustrated listening to idiots preach their nonsense. The convener said to the preacher, “You have to listen to the rubbish to know what you don’t want to be like”. So in a sense you are right. If there is no day you will not know what light is like. Night is an absence of light. As Jack says, Evil is an absence of Good. Jusus is both he Light and the Good.

  • Martin

    What a wishy washy article! As bad as David Cameron’s comments today:

    “Here the picture is bleak: family breakdown, drugs, crime and incivility are part of the normal experience of modern Britain. Many British Asians see a society that hardly inspires them to integrate. Indeed, they see aspects of modern Britain which are a threat to the values they hold dear – values which we should all hold dear. Asian families and communities are incredibly strong and cohesive, and have a sense of civic responsibility which puts the rest of us to shame. Not for the first time, I found myself thinking that it is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life, not the other way around.”

    It’s funny how David Cameron has no contact with Christians who have been saying things to him about the degeneracy of our society, that his government is encouraging.

    But the founder of Islam was a warrior prophet, one who killed his enemies and his followers are merely following his example in killing those who refuse to submit to his rule. Islam is quite different to the Bible, requiring that the sinner obey the rules in order to have a chance at salvation. Not like the gospel portrayed by Nicky Gumbel either

    “The second birth, this being born again, is a spiritual birth. It is something that God does by his Holy Spirit. God’s Holy Spirit is active. He cannot always be clearly understood and he cannot be controlled but it is he who is the midwife bringing to life those who are ready to be followers of Jesus, citizens of the kingdom of God. Alive naturally and spiritually. Complete.”

    For the gospel isn’t for those who “are ready to be followers of Jesus” but for those who are dead, dead as in the army of Ezekiel 37, dead bones, whitened by the weather. Only God can save because salvation requires a miraculous act of God. You cannot be good enough for God, for He must make you good.

    • Dominic Stockford

      What do the dead do?
      The dead do nothing.
      No! The dead do something – they stinketh!!
      Only God can bring them to life, only God can stop them stinking up the world.

  • Inspector General

    Cameron on the news just now. Saying we’ll come through if we stand up to extremists. Don’t hold your breath with him in charge though. He didn’t stand up to gay extremists on SSM…

    • Shadrach Fire

      They were his buddies. That’s why he gave them jobs in Downing Street.

    • dannybhoy
    • Phil R

      His Gov’s response is part of the problem

      See Peter Hitchens

      http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

      • Inspector General

        Excellent article Phil. The Inspector commends it to all.

      • grutchyngfysch

        “The French Leftist newspaper Liberation reported on September 12, 1996, that three stalwarts of Charlie Hebdo (including Stephane ‘Charb’ Charbonnier) had campaigned in their magazine to collect more than 170,000 signatures for a petition calling for a ban on the French National Front party. They did this in the name of the ‘Rights of Man’.”

        I posted in the other thread that the Voltaire (misattributed) quote is almost always untrue. The above comes as no great surprise.

        • dannybhoy

          “I posted in the other thread that the Voltaire (misattributed) quote is almost always untrue.”

          Maybe it was Linus??

          • grutchyngfysch

            I was responding to (but not disagreeing with the general sentiments of) Sister Tiberia. I can’t say, from what I’ve read so far, that I have much intention of engaging with the other chap.

          • dannybhoy

            Well you should, you should! He can be quite debilitating…

          • grutchyngfysch

            I should imagine so. I have plenty of options already available to me if I wish to be wound up.

          • dannybhoy

            Well I hope you’re including Clive in your options. He’s pretty skilled at it.

          • CliveM

            Eh! I don’t agree with this at all…..,.

            I am the very definition of reasonable.

          • The Explorer

            He’s a pussycat. (No insult to felines intended.)

          • carl jacobs

            Debilitating?

            Editor’s Note for Jack since he is littering the thread with something that vaguely resembles humor if viewed in dim light:

            Yes, I know what the word means. I was wondering why he chose to use it.

          • I’m willing to die rather than deny Jesus (see Acts chapter7) but not for the right of secularists to curse God.

            I’m against censorship apart from child porn and incitement to murder etc, and want no blasphemy laws. But increasingly we find you can get your collar felt for criticising certain privileged groups, and criticism and questioning of Darwinism is also specific forbidden in schools and effectively banned in the MSM. When does an unofficial blackout become censorship?

            Free speech would be a fine thing. When are we going to get it?

          • dannybhoy

            The latest is that the msm is starting to “self regulate” where Islam is concerned i.e. it’s okay to admit you’re scared..
            If they won’t ridicule Islam they shouldn’t ridicule any faith.
            My preference would be that all religions are questioned, debated, no matter how sceptically.
            My main objection is to blaphemous depictions or utterances which are done almost out of bravado, and not civility or common courtesy.

          • Suggestion for our fearless ‘je suis Charlie’ liberal artists.

            Piss Muhammad

            The Last Temptation of Muhammad

            Monty Python’s Life of Moham

            Muhammad, The Opera.

            Exactly zero people were killed by Christians over Piss Christ, last Temptation of Christ, Life of Brian and Jerry Springer. So will the Dawkinists equating Christianity with Islam stick their head in a bucket already.

        • CliveM

          The hypocrisy of the left in all it’s glory.

          • grutchyngfysch

            To be fair, I suspect it wouldn’t have occurred to them that such a position *was* hypocritical, since they will have tallied up things which are “for freedom” (secularism, satire, freedom to cause offence to the religious/conservative/powers that be) and those which are “against” (religion in the public sphere, the sacred, traditionalism, normative social/sexual mores).

            You will often catch self-professed liberals (well, they might well say “Liberals” – but to me that will always be a party that died a century ago) coming out with sentiments like “there’s nothing illiberal about being intolerant of intolerance”. Like Voltaire before them, they will be quite happy to contemplate censorship of “anti-freedom” forces, not with the aim of wholescale eradication (they are not morally equivalent to Islamists) but rather with the aim of neutering competing philosophies. The semblance can be permitted to survive (in Voltairese: keep it for the plebs) – you are entitled to have these beliefs as a hobby or an eccentricity, since that reinforces the appearance of cosmopolitanism, you just cannot be permitted to bring them into any sphere in which you may compete with the Enlightened for authority.

          • grutchyngfysch

            I ought to make it clear as well that I don’t criticise the use of the quote by others to lay claim to its sentiments myself. I would formulate freedom entirely differently, and believe that it is always a mistake to ape too closely the ideals of those who really bear Christianity no love simply because they are omnipresent in society.

      • IanCad

        Thanks for the link Phil.
        Yes! Bit by bit we lose that which was sacrificed and suffered for.

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Another great article by Peter Hitchens, describing the hypocrisy of our politicians and the shallowness of the “Je suis un charlie” campaign. LibLabCon are of course exploiting the situation to acuse their opponents of exploiting the situation, without a single rational explanation why. it’s all tediously familiar

      • Reading Peter Hitchens column on my tablet is the first thing I do on waking every Sunday morning. The last sane journalist in Britain

    • Politically__Incorrect

      It is the standard political response to appear on the media and make a lot of noise about being outraged and “standing united against extremism” while acutally doing nothing in terms of policy. It does not impress me and it probably does not impress the terrorists brewing up the next plot. We will never get the action needed to stop Islamo-carnage until politicians get off their knees, and I see little evidence that is going to happen while LibLabCon hold the reins of power.

      • sarky

        Politicians getting off their knees?? It won’t be the politicians but the people that decide enough is enough!

  • Shadrach Fire

    260 Comments. Has His Grace lost his pen?

  • Inspector General

    More news. Two child suicide bombers have blown themselves to pieces in Nigeria.

    You can’t even be off your guard near their young…

    • CliveM

      It’s disgusting what some adults do to their children. Extremists should have their children removed as a start.

      • Inspector General

        That’s going to be a lot of children, Clive. Best comes to terms with it by employing racial profiling. The lesser the race, the less value they place on human life, even their own offsprings, which is tragic whichever way you look at it.

        Of course, you can try and do without that racial concept, as Carl does without indoor plumbing in his prairie log cabin, but be prepared to empty the bucket daily and hold your nose whilst you’re about it…

        • CliveM

          Well we already know of a few mad mullahs in the UK promoting violence. We should start with theirs. It might help as an example. May even persuade some to stay away.

        • carl jacobs

          I see the Inspector is still living in 1885 when white men ruled the Earth and white racial superiority seemed a self-evident truth established by every turn of an English ship around the Asian continent.

          The Colonies have come quite a distance since you last paid attention them, Inspector. Why, we even have schools now. And next year the railroad is supposed to come through.

          • bluedog

            ‘every turn of a British ship around the Asian continent.’
            Hmmm, still got the DVD of ‘The King and I’?

          • Inspector General

            It took you long enough to bite. Don’t think the Inspector hadn’t noticed you up ticking a comment a couple of hours ago.
            Anyway, smug off, one is turning in…

          • carl jacobs

            “smug off?” I have never seen ‘smug’ used as a verb. What does this expression mean?

            Note: Google was utterly no help.

      • Dreadnaught

        It’s disgusting what some adults do to their children

        Indeed. They indoctrinate them in exclusive faith biased schools instead of allowing them to decide when they are mature enough to make their own minds up between fact and fiction and we can’t discriminate in favour of one faith over another.

        Dump them all I say.

        • CliveM

          If one provokes their children into donning suicide vests, I think we can.

          • Dreadnaught

            No poor kids would blow themselves up voluntarily. Insanity writ large.

          • CliveM

            Agreed.

          • CliveM

            Seemingly she may not have even known that she was carrying a bomb. They believe it may have been remotely controlled and the child a dupe.

        • Inspector General

          Of course, in an ideal world, children would be brought up bi-sexual. There’s selfish and heartless parents for you…

          • The Explorer

            What sex are the parents?

          • Inspector General

            Now, Explorer, you are suggesting that because both parents are heterosexual, they will bring up their children accordingly. This is what troubles Dreadnaught. Let the children decide :->

          • The Explorer

            Not at all. I know of two males (one of them formerly married to a woman) who had sex changes and are now living together as lesbians. Now suppose they had a kid via a third party…

          • CliveM

            I’m confused reading this, what chance the child?

          • Inspector General

            There’s madness about !!

      • Hold on, that’s more or less what the Dawkyman says about creationists.

        • CliveM

          Never cared what that bigot says. I’m certainly not going to let his senile mumblings have any affect on what I think!!

          • Inspector General

            Dawkins or Dreadnaught ?

          • CliveM

            Now, now let’s not stir it!

          • Inspector General

            Been a sentinel on Pink News for far too long. Am turning into a bitchy Queen…

          • CliveM

            Turn away from the dark side Inspector. Stay where the air is clear.

          • Dreadnaught

            I’ll report you to Linus if you don’t cut it out; you irascible old homo-hating racist – now off to bed before before the knocker-up-man arrives with something offensive on his pole!

    • Dreadnaught

      Yes – don’t they blow-up quick these days – not like when I we were kids.

      • Inspector General

        Two muslim women talking over the garden fence. Les Dawson, you left us too soon…

        • Dreadnaught

          Sadly gone but not forgotten

          • avi barzel

            …. Hitler was my Mother in Law. Odd thing is, cant remember a single one of the jokes, but still giggle when I remember his book and hear or read his name.

          • Dreadnaught

            My mother in law is so awful – when the mice know she’s coming … they throw themselves on the traps. Ta-Tishhh

          • avi barzel

            Thanks!

          • Inspector General

            Not sure why you added the mantelpiece joke when the Inspector had already aired it for Avi. But you have your reasons, no doubt, and one best not ask :->

          • Jack is thinking of converting to Islam. Apparently, it’s a blast!

          • Inspector General

            #Let the Inspector take you by the hand and lead you through the streets of Gloucester. He’ll show you something to make you change your mind#

            Altogether now – #So how can you tell me you’re loony, and that for you your mind don’t shine…

          • His vest goes
            Boom bang-a-bang, boom bang-a-bang
            When he is near
            Boom bang-a-bang, boom bang-a-bang
            Loud in our ear
            Pounding away, pounding away
            Spreading world peace
            Boom bang-a-bang-bang until we’re decease

          • Dreadnaught

            It preceded yours by a few minutes old chap.

          • Inspector General

            Used to hang a picture of my mother-in-law over the mantelpiece. Kept the children away from the fire…

          • avi barzel

            Thanx!

        • Q: What do you get after you win a religious debate against a Muslim?

          A: Death threats.

          • Inspector General

            Very good. Plenty of muslims on the radio telling us that the terrorists don’t represent THEIR Islam. But what do you say to them when you know that terrorism is TYPICAL of Islam. It goes with the territory.

          • Never let Islam set up suicide help lines in Europe.

          • The Explorer

            You’re in cracking form tonight, HJ!

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Seems to be the work of Boko Haram, another member of the Islamic peace corps. One wonders what kind of sick coward uses a 10 yr old girl as a suicide bomber – a muslim extremist of course. I think the biologists need to re-classify these creatures so they are no longer members of the homo sapiens species. I’m sure there must be a suitable category in the world of invertebrates or other pond-life.

      • Inspector General

        homo sapiens proto

      • CliveM

        PI

        it would appear that it’s not altogether certain she was a suicude bomber. From what I read she may have been a dupe and the bomb remotely controlled.

        Seemingly they have started kidnapping children for such a role.

        Their is no adequate description for the deprvity of the perpetrators.

    • dannybhoy

      A little 10 year old girl one of them. What kind of savagery is this? It is evil in the most literal sense.

      • Inspector General

        10 years old. Oh my God…

        Somebody, get the rope out. Islamists must pay the price for this outrage.

      • CliveM

        What sort of hero hides behind a 10 yr old? I wonder if they will be celebrating their success? Poor child, my son is 10, dear Lord, end this world now. Return and bring your judgement.

        • Inspector General

          Steady on Clive. Teach the lad well. Prepare him for what lies ahead. Don’t do what Dreadnaught wants and give the child the secularist view of the world. So the lad can avoid disappointment, of course…

          • CliveM

            I am most certainly not taking Dreadnaughts advice on parenting! I can’t force him to faith, but he will know the route.

          • Inspector General

            Don’t tell Dreadnaught that !!

          • CliveM

            Amended comment in case of confusion!

          • William Lewis

            Quite

        • William Lewis

          “What sort of hero hides behind a 10 yr old? “

          Presumably, the same sort that rapes a nine year old.

          I also have a 10 year old son. We can but point them to the light of the world I think Clive.

          • CliveM

            Indeed.

  • Nice idea. Can’t be done-specifically forbidden. The Christian Reformation was about returning to the purity of Scripture. So is modern jihadism. Different books, different results from following them. But no point asking Islam to reform itself, it can’t and won’t.

    The ‘prophetology’ required is to examine the prophetic sayings of Jesus, Paul, Peter and John, who all warned against false prophets ‘who will lead many astray…..you will know them by their fruits.’

    Not very cryptic, is it?

    Where do we go from here? I don’t know, but a realistic appraisal of where we find ourselves and how we got here seems an essential start.

    My own view is that God is chastising us with Islam because we rejected Christ. And serve us right.

    PS where’s the quacking Chilcot report?

    • Politically__Incorrect

      “God is chastising us with Islam because we rejected Christ”
      Good point. Just read the book of Jeremiah and it seems to me one can draw parallels between Israel’s infidelity and subsequent destruction and the present situation in Europe. What I see in Europe is a rootless people with no identity other than their own humanist relativism, being overrun by by a barbaric but disciplined ideology. We are being totally shafted and we are too frightened to even say it.

      • Islam sees itself as having Manifest Destiny to take over a corrupt and dying western culture.

        • Inspector General

          That would explain why they’re helping us to die…

          • Assisted suicide.

          • Inspector General

            Oh shit. Here comes Lord Carey waving a black flag…

          • CliveM

            Shouldn’t that be a white flag?

          • bluedog

            He’s a proper Charlie.

      • dannybhoy

        What I find amazing is how much this country has changed in such a short time. As a young man returning from travels abroad there was always that sense of stability, normality and safety. You were coming HOME to good old Britain.
        But now?
        With all that’s going on?
        Nah. My country is being wrecked by craven small minded politicians who seem ashamed of our past and our achievements. They have lost faith in Great Britain, and seek refuge and freedom of responsibility by joining the EU. They are content to become puppet politicians manipulated from Brussels.

        • Inspector General

          Vote UKIP. UKIP, I say. UKIP for now, and the future.

          Pip Pip !

          • dannybhoy

            Yes indeed,
            Pip er, Pip it is.

      • And Catholic Popes predicted all this in their various writings in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Liberal democracy, in the absence of an active faith Christ and laws reflecting this, results in religious indifferentism and a collapse of morals and society.

        • The Explorer

          Catholic Popes. Are there non-Catholic ones?

          • CliveM

            Coptic Popes.

          • The Explorer

            Thanks for that. Clive. A species unknown to me until your post. So, strictly, when people say, ” The Pope…” they ought to specify which one they mean.

          • CliveM

            Yes, although references to the Coptic Pope are few and far between!

          • The Explorer

            And if the Muslims have their way, HIs Holiness will vanish along with his flock.

          • CliveM

            Sadly true. An ancient Church, with a proud history.

            Never mind I’m sure our leaders will do something about it……….. :0(

          • There’s the Coptic Pope, titled: “Pope and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Orthodox and Apostolic Throne of Saint Mark the Evangelist and Holy Apostle”.

            There’s also the head of the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, called: “Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa.”

          • dannybhoy

            Jack’s got all their autographs…. 😉

          • Jut the ones that count, Danny.

          • dannybhoy

            You surely don’t mean
            “All Popes are holy, but some are more holy than others”?
            btw Jack have you seen Hannah’s blog recently?

          • Some Popes have been most wicked too.

          • The Explorer

            Does All Africa acknowledge them? How many followers have they got in somewhere like Botswana?

          • CliveM

            Only the Coptic bits. Bit like the Catholic Pope in Europe.

          • carl jacobs

            You know that you saved Jack some embarrassment by coming to his rescue like that. He wasn’t thinking about Coptic Popes. But now he has credible deniability.

          • CliveM

            Well he’s getting on a bit. I see it like helping the old to cross the road………..!

          • carl jacobs

            CliveM

            But that’s no fun. We want to mock him mercilessly. We want to catch him in an error, point at him, and laugh. Not unlike discovering that the Inspector has a cat after all of the professed cat hatred he has displayed on this weblog. Or finding out that Avi had to go see “Waiting for Godot.”

            It is our responsibility to have fun at Jack’s expense. It the “Code of the Guy.”

          • Carl, the ‘Code’ is never, ever discussed. It is unspoken. It has to be discovered and lived.

          • avi barzel

            Avi was recently sent to see The Heart of Robbin Hood with the youngest and he highly recommends it. Alas, it’s only playing in Toronto until March and then going on to Broadway. The cast includes an incredible bluegrass band, Parsonsfield.

          • Do the male actors frolic about in tights and short skirts?

          • avi barzel

            Sorry, the skirts are traditionally long, but there is an athletic young blond woman, a nasty member of sheriff of Nottingham’s crew, in a rather tight Punk outfit.

          • CliveM

            You seem a bit excited by the thought????

          • No. Jack is monitoring the march of feminisation of the male in popular culture.

          • CliveM

            If you say so…………,,,:0)

          • carl jacobs

            No! This just isn’t right. Maid Marion can NOT be the hero. That isn’t canon. That isn’t canon at all. What’s next? Will the ugly step-sisters get the Prince? Will Snow White never wake up? Will the French win at Agincourt in a revised version of Henry V?

            This is wrong. This is some kind of unnatural mating between Harlequin Romance novels and Helen Reddy singing “I am Woman.” I shudder to think what the artistic fallout will be.

          • avi barzel

            You are too deep for me, Carl. I enjoyed the highly kinetic performances, the good music, unpredictable humour and the totally crazy stage set. I expected a post-modern mood, but the theme was quite traditional; virtue vanquishes evil, a boy and girl from different classes, meet and fall in love and presumably live happily firever after. They are going on to Broadway, after all, not to pay-what-you-can performances at indie venues.

          • CliveM

            Oh hell, I just wanted to show off!

          • Clive, want to know how to confuse Carl? Take him to a buffet and tell him to chose whatever he wants.

            Did you hear about the Calvinist who rode in an elevator all day? He felt he had no right to choose a floor so he just went wherever it took him

            How many Calvinists does it take to screw in a light bulb? It depends on how many are needed to get all the unbelievers out of the room, for only the Elect are given the Light.

            Why do Calvinists prefer subways and trains? Because the destinations are all pre-determined.

          • As a person recently commented: “Zip it bird brain”. Most unkindly too.

          • avi barzel

            Pfft! Good one.

        • avi barzel

          And yet they failed to “predict” that Church rapacity and corruption, state authoritarianism and fascism would cause a reaction and play a role not only in the emergence of secularism and Liberalism, but communism as well.

          • Have you a point to make, Avi? The various Encyclicals do offer some profound insights into the nature of man and various economic and political systems.

            All revolutions spring from rebellion against the established order. And all socio-political-economic systems have injustices and wicked men in power. All this is bound to produce agitators stirring violent revolution. Get the right combination of forces and going to cause change. It’s the way of man. It’s not progress. It’s just change. Jack is aware of the human failings of the Church. You think there’s any less rapacity and corruption in the world today? Liberal secularism is just the latest system and it locates power with the masses and removes Christian constraints.

          • avi barzel

            Have you a point to make, Avi?

            Well, looks like I did, Jack, hence your response. But you jump to conclusions. My point, if any, is that religious leaders are lousy at predictions and always prefer the status quo until it’s changed for them by others. Then, after history does its thing, they manage to dig up one if the hundreds of vague “predictions” and claim that they always knew. And it’s not just a Catholic thing; maybe more Jews would have escaped Europe if most of the rabbis didn’t tell them to stay in their littke ghetto, saying the Germans were just bluffing and the warnings were just communist or Zionist propaganda. Truly prescient religious leaders would have been able to not just predict what every tipsy wagoneer at the inn could, but would have come up radical and effective remedies. None did. Not even close.

          • Avi, except the various Encyclicals Jack was referring to were not ‘predictions’ in the sense of being prophecies of specific events. They were analyses of modernism and progressive thinking that were dethroning God and replacing Him and His order with man made political systems based on ideologies of a rational ‘liberal’ man who could exercise freedom without moral restraint or regard to His Decrees. They identified dangers and set out the Church’s approach.

          • avi barzel

            Fine. Those analyses or profound predictive insights, as you refer to them, still only say the same thing what every religious person, including you and me says: Drop religion, traditions and customs and bad things happen. Woo, deep, man. They just use fancier words and better paper. An impressive showing would have been a profound restructuring which would have retained the relevance of religion and its institutions in the radically different Modern Era. All of them failed because none wanted to face change or to lose their comfortable spots, and they all bombed, and now we have to put the pieces back together before it’s too late.

          • That’s not a position Jack agrees with, Avi.

            Catholic social teaching isn’t about religious practices, traditions and customs which brings social upheaval. Its more about how to achieve the common good through recognising how God wants man to live in relationship to one another. The Church took the position it had a responsibility to resist the separation of Church and State and a duty to speak against liberal democratic capitalist systems, communism and secularisation. What “profound restructuring” at that time would have ameliorated the worst effects of rapid industrialisation or the communist revolution? It attempted to exercise influence.

          • avi barzel

            The Church and other religious leaderships cozied up to whoever had money and power and spoke up against whoever they were told to speak up against. It didn’t work. Better if they had acknowledged the new powerful trends, lowered their profile and made broader alliances with a growing enfranchised middle class…I guess.

          • dannybhoy

            As I have said before the church in Rome became an extension of the power of the (Roman) Empire. Any ambitious young graduate or political researcher found faith in the new state religion and jumped on board…
            Jack thinks it was for the best, but he’s biased…. 😉

          • CliveM

            Sadly you are probably right. Most Churches had some role to play. Even if unintentional.

      • IanCad

        The outrages by a few worshippers of a cutthroat perv, hardly – to my mind – qualify as the chastisement of God.
        When that occurs we shall be in no doubt.

    • IanCad

      I see where David Davis is pushing hard to get it out there.
      If only he were Tory leader UKIP would vanish.

  • Phil R

    A few are shot and the politicians are out and the people demonstrate.

    They are not really bothered about those that are shot they are worried about the implications for them

    Hypocrisy? We don’t know the meaning of the word.

    By the way a teacher in the UK had to resign for showing this film to her cchidlren aged 10 and 11

    She is still under investigation.

    This to me is far more worrying.

    • Inspector General

      Phil. Ten minutes into this. What is the bloody point in interviewing thicks. If anything, this is a video to warn against not taking your education seriously…

      • Politically__Incorrect

        IG, did you get to the abortion bit? I think it’s worth a gander

    • avi barzel

      Phil, I won’t comment on the veracity or justice of the teacher being dismissed for what essentially is sneaking an “extra-curricular” missionary film to her captive audience of minors. Neither about the propriety of comparing the Holocaust to modern abortion policies. What annoyed me is the insipid and mendacious claim that the “God of the Ten Commandments” would condemn these pathetic nitwits, but that only Jesus forgives. The Evangelist interviewer who claims to be Jewish misrepresents the Torah. The premise of his argument is false; repentance and forgiveness are intrinsic to Judaism and have been long before Christianity.

      Btw, I’m equally annoyed with comparative religious propaganda shite and with Jewish versions of that fanatical moron who drop similar whoppers about Christianity and Christians.

      • carl jacobs

        Avi

        The premise of his argument is false; repentance and forgiveness are intrinsic to Judaism and have been long before Christianity.

        The basis, however, is completely different. When a Christian talks about forgiveness he is referring to the establishment of a peace between God and man that can never again be severed. It refers to a change in relationship brought about by the permanent satisfaction of God’s wrath against sin. The question becomes “How does an unrighteous sinful man stand before a Holy God?” He does so on;y because he has been forgiven by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ. This is the Central Tenet of the Christian faith – that only the work of Christ provides man with the forgiveness of God. Not the sacrifice in the temple. Not the doing of good works. Not our tears and pleadings and supplications.

        • “It refers to a change in relationship brought about by the permanent satisfaction of God’s wrath against sin.”

          Depending on the theory of atonement you hold, that is.

          Another is that Christ’s love and perfect self-offered sacrifice made restitution and restored man’s relationship with God. Not so much wrath bearing down – as love and perfection being offered up.

        • avi barzel

          So? I’m not annoyed at nuances and differences in bases or even understandably different religious convictions. You don’t seriously believe that the crass missionary huckster and the cretin yoofs he was addressing would even understand your theological take on this, as in what you just said above, much less that he was trying to articulate it? I’m merely annoyed at his cheap exploitation of the Holocaust and the false claim of the vengeful, unforgiving “Old Testament” God of Judaism.

          • carl jacobs

            Avi

            You don’t seriously believe that the crass missionary huckster…

            I don’t know much about Ray Comfort, but I know ‘Way of the Master Ministries” through the recommendation of people I trust. He isn’t a crass missionary huckster.

            … and the cretin yoofs he was addressing

            More on them later.

            …would even understand your theological take on this

            There is no doubt in my mind that Ray Comfort would understand and agree with what I said. He would do a better job explaining it.

            I’m merely annoyed at his cheap exploitation of the Holocaust and the false claim of the vengeful, unforgiving “Old Testament” God of Judaism.

            Take them in reverse order. The only claim I saw of a “vengeful, unforgiving “Old Testament” God of Judaism” was in a quote by Hitler. In fact, to my Christian eyes, there was no reference to Judaism in this video at all outside of the Holocaust. You might see this differently, but understand that (in our understanding) Christianity subsumes the whole of Judaism. Be that as it may, I never saw anything that would warrant your complaint.

            I can see your complaint about the cheap exploitation of the holocaust. The holocaust is unique in its deliberate targeting of a people. Abortion (despite the numbers) is a more mundane and ordinary slaughter. The comparison doesn’t really work. There is something personal about the Holocaust that sets it apart (if that makes sense.) But I think he made reference to it because it represents a recognizable moral absolute in a world that doesn’t recognize the concept of absolutes. He used it as a lever to get people past their inconsistencies.

            About the yoofs. I don’t really think this kind of argumentation has any staying power. It’s more of “I have thought this through and can force you into a corner.” But once the pressure is gone, I suspect the old thinking will quickly return. There is no root in this, I bet if you talked with those people today, you would discover these talks had no impact.

            btw. I recognized the last ten minutes of the video as an extended form of “Kennedy Evangelism.” I was trained on this back in the late 80s. It’s a method to get people talking about the spiritual subjects at the heart of the Gospel.

            Summary: I thought the video was vaguely manipulative of the interview subjects, but I didn’t find anything doctrinally wrong with it. Whatever you find wrong with it, I can’t see it.

          • avi barzel

            It’s as I said before, Carl, an annoying misrepresentation of historical and present Jewish doctrine. A straw man fallacy which I felt compelled to correct for the sake of any passerby Red Sea Pedestrian here who might take such tosh seriously. The rest are impressions gleaned from dealing with such characters in my days of active anti-missionary endeavors in our community. The theology behind it all is none of my business and as for the use of manipulative rhetoric in the fellow’s missionizing methodology, the education I have accumulated in that area tells me that mendacity and what amounts to patronizing intellectual trickery may look impressive at the moment, but rarely work in the medium and long term…not that I care to improve the success rate of a ministry.

          • carl jacobs

            Avi

            an annoying misrepresentation of historical and present Jewish doctrine.

            Which is precisely my difficulty. Because I didn’t see any representation of historical or present Jewish doctrine in the film at all. What I saw was a straight-forward Christian presentation. The Law condemns. The Lord Jesus saves. In the absence of the latter, a man will be condemned because he is guilty before God for having broken the Law.

          • You overlooking Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, Carl.

          • carl jacobs

            You are overlooking the Book of Hebrews, Jack. One of the principle points of which is that the Priests in the temple couldn’t save. They repeated sacrifices that never could take away sin.

          • Not overlooking it, Carl. Just commenting that within Judaism as a system there is a theological ‘solution’ to sin and a way to achieve the forgiveness of both God and neighbour. Christians may not agree with it but it should be acknowledged and can’t just be dismissed as not existing.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack

            I did not overlook it. I placed in its proper context relating to the New Covenant. No man will stand before God in judgment on the Last Day and be justified by Yom Kippur. It does not and cannot take away sin. That is why the sacrifice of Christ is superior to the sacrifice in the Temples. Christ can actually remove sin from us. That is why we can say

            Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

            That refers to the peace that can never again break into open warfare. The sacrifices in the temples had to be repeated again and again and again because they couldn’t remove sin.

          • Yes, Jack is a Christian. He doesn’t accept your theology, he rejects it, but he accepts Jesus Christ is our Saviour. However, you cannot just cite passages from Christian scripture to a Jew and expect him to relate to them or accept them.

          • avi barzel

            Your convictions are your own business, Carl, as are mine. Jack makes the point below better than I did, so all I’ll add is that I see it as my duty to comment whenever my theology is misinterpreted for any reason and by anyone. And as I said before, I’m equally annoyed when enthusiasts among my own offer mendacious interpretations of other religions, such as that Christians are cross-worshippers or have deified a female goddess in the form of the Madonna. Apart from the ethical problems with such misrepresentations, they are ineffective; almost to a man and woman, the converts to Judaism I’ve spoken to said that the differences between what they heard from ministers and missionaries about Judaism, its practices and theology, and the very different reality they discovered on their own played an important role in their decision to join the true and unbroken Covenant. On second thought, I shouldn’t complain, I guess.

          • carl jacobs

            Avi

            Jack makes the point below better than I did …

            Jack’s response was not relevant.

            …so all I’ll add is that I see it as my duty to comment whenever my theology is misinterpreted for any reason and by anyone.

            He didn’t misrepresent Jewish theology. He accurately represented Christian theology. Christianity makes truth claims about Judaism. You can say that his accurate presentation of Christianity inherently misrepresents Judaism. You cannot demand that Christianity conform its understand of Judaism according to Jewish belief.

          • avi barzel

            You cannot demand that Christianity conform its understand[ing] of Judaism according to Jewish belief.

            Do show me where I have made such a demand, Carl! I expressed annoyance…not opposition to or a request for corrections…at a factual error, a subjective claim or a deliberate falsehood. If these form someone’s theology, it’s not my business. There is plenty of that on both sides.

            Conversely, you cannot demand that I abstain from publicly correcting or objecting to what I consider to be falsehood. And as for my musings about the ethics of incorrect or mendacious claims, they are a matter of opinion relating to the effectiveness of missionary approaches, Jewish, Christian or any other.

          • “Jack’s response was not relevant.”

            Jack’s points are always relevant.

      • Phil R

        It was here own children at home

        she didn’t show it at school

        • avi barzel

          That would certainly be odd and unjust…although not unheard of where today’s school boards are concerned. Still, one finds such stories are often wrongly described, situations where a number of other things are going on.

      • Dreadnaught

        This was an abuse of the memory and suffering inflicted on innocent people.
        Crass in the extreme.
        A first class example of why freedom to produce such an abysmal argument for a religion (or anything) needs to be preserved, exposed and decontaminated by the light of factual dissemination.

        • avi barzel

          Having seen worse, it wasn’t that abusive, especially since it was directed at numb-skulls certified by the American educational system who won’t understand any of it and will forget that encounter after the second puff on the bong in mom’s basement.
          (Don’t take it personally Carl; the Canadian system is rapidly “catching up” to yours.)

      • IanCad

        Avi, I do believe that he accepts the “Nine Commandments”
        The Fourth got lost along the way. So he says.

        • avi barzel

          The Sabbath got lost? Where did it go? I missed that one, but then, I was fast-forwarding and skipping bits here and there.

          • IanCad

            I didn’t see all of the video either.
            It is on his website.
            “Expired” may be the more accurate term.

          • avi barzel

            Hmm. Must have missed the expiry date sticker. And here I am lighting candles and doing without phone, devices, car and my cigars for 25 hours once every week!

          • IanCad

            HaHa 🙂

    • Hi Phil

      Can you give direction as to where one may read up on this story? I’m interested it and would like to read further.

      • Phil R

        https://www.lifesitenews.com/pulse/uk-mom-school-reported-me-to-child-protective-services-for-showing-my-kids

        l also read about it in one of the papers. I think it was the telegraph. It had more info. I cannot find it now.

        • That’s great thanks.

          • Phil R

            Same fundamental issue.

            But presumably for you free speech is more of a problem with this example

            http://www.mercatornet.com/conjugality/view/15416

          • Hi Phil

            Trust you to try and divert the thread into homosexuality,but to be honest I’d forgotten about the obsessing around the comments section here about this issue of gay marriage.. Well I’m not biting: suffice to say that I have no problem with people telling me or saying being gay or gay sex is a sin , if people want to hold this view and say it I won’t prevent them from doing so. I agree with freedom of speech and expression, subject to the usual constraints that we have and have developed over the past hundred years (libel, shouting fire in a theatre where there is none, inciting people to violence etc).

          • avi barzel

            It is a diversion for sure, but a relevant one, Miss Hannah. The commendable drive for social and legal tolerance was followed by increasingly skewed and questionable human rights angles and now, we have moved into the demonization of conscientious objectors. Precisely what was promised will never happen by those who ridiculed the slippery slope “fallacy.”
            The connection between the selective protection of one particular religion and one range of sexual life styles over others is in the increasingly oppressive definition of what we may or may not accept as reality. A critique of Islam is now a phobia, as is refusal to define a union between people of the same sex as a marriage or a mentally ill guy in a dress and with lipstick who claims to be female. One can lose one’s job over such supposedly shocking bigotry and soon, the law will have something to say about all this as well.

          • Hi avi

            Ah well, insulating a religion that is far from tolerant of gay people is the big paradox of the left. I’ve got nothing to do with “the homosexual” agenda as some people call it. I have no problem with people having a contrary view about my sexuality and don’t want to coerce or force any religion to do something which is against their principles i.e. force churches and synagogues to marry gay people if they don’t want to and I believe we need a kind of constitutional settlement which reflects this and free speech. I’d like to live and let live to be honest.

          • avi barzel

            Your position is well known to me Miss Hannah. I should mention that the few Gay people I know personally are not militant and some are confused about how a minority militant attitude became mainstream. I personally suspect that there are other dynamics involved, dynamics emerging from the Left, rather than from Gay communities and that these have little to do with tolerance in the sexual sphere.

          • Hi avi

            Well you get a cyberspace hug from me (:

          • avi barzel

            Thank you. I hesitate to pasken on a novel angle in halakhah, but I’ll be brave and assume that a cyberspace hug from a gracious and much younger lady who is not my wife is tzniut and not assur. Intruding thoughts on the other hand….

          • Hi avi

            Well I’m shomer shabbos, but we tend to interpret tzniut and negiah in lenient fashion. If it helps I have one or two guys in kollel, who chat to me over e-mail, although I unfortunately upset one of them for wading into whether or not they should join the IDF and have a secular education: hmmm I was called a messenger of Satan and a wicked apostate(although they apologised afterwards. But most of the lads are quite cool about writing to an unmarried girl, as they think it’s apparently o.k., because I’m a lezza and therefore there can’t be an sexual connotations ( at least on my part).

            PS, I REALLY wanted to dive into the Anton/oral law stuff, but thought : why bother?

          • avi barzel

            Don’t for a minute believe the rationalizations of those yeshiva bachurs of yours. In their cabbalah-besotted worldview, communicating with a woman leads to impure thoughts, impure thoughts lead to impure actions and impure actions generate legions of nasty dybbuks hovering near one’s left arm or something to that effect. Being “lezza” makes no difference; a woman is a woman and same sex activities among women are not treated with the same strictness as among men. Your attraction or lack theteof to men is not at issue; THEIR lusting for interaction with a female IS! The naughty rascals! Ask them then, if they don’t consider you a woman, whether they’d let you complete a minyan.

            PS: Don’t supply Clive with any translations. Let him stew and seethe for a while.

          • Hi Avi,

            Thanks for this, I hadn’t thought they’d be thinking like that at all. I just like to chat. It’s very exciting to hear about your new business, hope it all goes well. Also re : dybbuks, i was chattering to happy Jack about Jewish exorcism earlier on as I’ve been reading my grandmother’s diary and she’s arguing as a rationalist with my more mystically inclined grandfather about this very subject.

          • Wise words, Avi.

          • CliveM

            Don’t pretend you know what they are saying !

          • CliveM

            :0(

          • Getting into the oral stuff with Anton would not be a good idea. Jack attempted to explain Catholicism and doctrine and he’s just looking to prove himself right.

          • Hi Happy Jack

            I’m glad I didn’t then

          • CliveM

            There you go again, as soon as you and Hannah start talking, I no longer have any idea what you’re saying.

            I’m sure you do it to show off :0)

          • avi barzel

            Of course it’s all showing off. Since you’ve yet to break the impenetrable codes and algorithms of Google searches (sigh):

            – Pasken: to determine or decide points of halakhah (see below);

            – Halakhah (typically transliterated “halachah”): Jewish religious law;

            – tzniut (also tznius): modesty, humility or decency in dress and general conduct;

            – assur: prohibited; and

            – intruding thoughts: generally blamed (by fellows reluctant to take on responsibility for their actions) on the yetzer ha-ra, literally meaning “evil inclination” but also meaning creative and competitive urges and lusts which can harm us but without which humanity would be unable to function or suevive.

          • CliveM

            I’m just lazy :0(

            Do you know what men of all faiths seem to have in common? An ability to blame women for their ‘uncontrollable lusts’!

          • avi barzel

            Thank goodness for that; better than blaming our parents!

          • dannybhoy

            Hannah
            You should talk to Linus…!

          • Sorry, who is Linus?

          • Good question.

          • Phil R

            I am not diverting the thread or obsessing about gay marriage.

            I would just like to be able to continue to point out the problems and misery that gay marriage will bring to society, families and children.

            But of course there will be nothing for me to write about because it will be all marvelous. Indeed a triumph of selfishness over responsibility and commitment.

            All will work out just fine….

            Right!

  • Old Blowers

    Just read http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2905075/Hate-preacher-backs-massacres-says-Britain-enemy-Islam.html.

    A Months wage bets that he wil not be prosecuted for hate crime. Welcome to Great Britain, especially Londonistan..

    ps

    No comments section for this story…Natch!

    • HIm and his followers should all be deported never to re-enter our country again.

      • IanCad

        Let him blabber away.
        Repeal all the restrictions on free speech so we may forcefully expose the truth about the “prophet” he serves.

        • IanCad

          OK! OK! So I reply to my own post! Why not? I talk to myself, don’t I?

          Simply, the reason is to counter the sentiment emerging for drastic action.

          Permit me to re-post Phil R’s link.

          http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

          Keep calm guys.

          • dannybhoy

            That’s a very good article Ian.

    • CliveM

      If he has children I hope they are being taken into care, for their own safety. Can’t have them donning suicide vests.

    • dannybhoy

      Here’s something for you to read in between rants…. Very interesting actually.
      http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/india02.htm

      • avi barzel

        Interesting article, danny. My new business partner, the son of one of our caretakers at our synagogue, became more observant in his Hindu faith, apparently influenced by the level of religious observance he witnesses among us in our synagogue. He is currently in India, on a pilgrimage, and left with hugs and blessings for a safe journey from all of us. This may seem confusing to some (most probably not you), but Hinduism (as most religions, including Christianity) is not deemed to be Paganism by most Jewish authorities. What confuses the issue is the apparent relativism, the doctrine that it is Paganism and a mortal heresy for Jews and Jews alone, to adopt any other religion.

        • dannybhoy

          Avi,
          in a way you illustrate my own thoughts on religious devotion and God’s judgement as seen from our Christian perspective of “No man comes to the Father but by Me”
          Christians can say that Yeshua haMeshiach is the (only) way, the truth and the life, but we can’t say wher a person will ultimately stand before God, because God looks at the heart of man..
          I am two thirds of the way through “I’m your man.” Leonard Cohen’s autobiography. (We both like his music.)

          Very interesting to read the influences (some savoury, some not,) that shaped his life. Particulary Rosh,i the Zen Buddhist master that Leonard says helped him understand to a greater depth his own Judaism.
          Of course being an intensely practical man myself, I find a lot of Leonard’s tortured musings utter self regarding tosh; typical of the creative, artistic, and self absorbed mindset that makes life far more complicated than it need be, whilst indulging in all sorts of conservative and conventional “no no’s” because that’s what the artistic and enlightened mind allows…. 🙂

          (No offence, that’s how I see it).

          Yet Leonard remains true to his conservative sense of integrity and responsibility, that can (perhaps like your Hindu friend) lead eventually to a re-appraisal 0f what is important in life.
          I remain convinced that true life and meaning is found in Christ Jesus who is the Son of God, but for those who have not found this path yet remain devout and sincere to what they do believe, God Himself will judge.

          • avi barzel

            You’re about to get an earful for your thoughts from some of your coreligionists, dannybhoy, that’s for sure. Doctrinal wavering, liberal relativism and such. Cant’s be helped and I’m not immune from such challenges from my sector either.
            No offense taken over your take on Leonard Cohen’s navel-gazing auto-musings; brilliant musician, a genius poet, but…well, let’s leave it that!

          • dannybhoy

            Messages tied round bricks
            Delivered through windows..
            “Repent! Repent!”
            I don’t think so Avi.
            Most of my co-commenters are deep thinkers and more educated than myself.
            Except for Clive of course..
            What non believers often don’t realise (as in your own sector) is that those who are devout,
            those who love God,
            those who are aware of their own failings
            also have their own questions relating to faith and origins.
            But we are content to leave them with He who knows all things.

          • CliveM

            These digs are going to get you in trouble Dannybhoy!

          • dannybhoy

            I keep checking to make sure you’re awake..

          • CliveM

            Barely…………….

          • avi barzel

            “Except for Clive, of course.” LOL! Well, a response within half an hour, so he’s on the ball.

          • CliveM

            Don’t encourage him!

      • Old Blowers

        I am now suitably depressed. It’s like a bleeding malignant computer virus posing as friendly software on the front cover, ain’t it? How the hell can it’s adherents call it the religion of love and peace. Deluded or in denial or both??

        • dannybhoy

          When I met with Palestinians in Israel I often found it difficult to understand the logic being used around the problems in that area. There are some very good books around. One I would recommend is called “The Arab Mind Considered” by John Laffin. He wrote extensively on the subject, and talks a lot about Yassir Arafat.
          But it’s all about world views and that’s what makes it so difficult to relate. They (the devout) believe it’s all about submission. That all we need to know is in the Koran, that all that happens is by the will of God. There is quite a lot if fatalism in Islam.
          Our Christian worldview is of course very different.

          • Old Blowers

            Dear Danny

            Mohammed was probably jealous after hearing about Jesus and knowing about the prophets of the old testament and decided he wanted a piece of the action also (See Joseph Smith for a modern version) and wanted that kind of devotion such as Jesus had with His followers or Moses with the children of Israel.

            The problem that has followed is that he took his line of hereditary proof from ishmael that determined that he, ishmael had been robbed of his inheritancy so the war against Israel has continued up to the present from this pretend line of decendancy that is a mere figment of the mohammed and the muslim imagination.

            Here in lies the eternal seeds of conflict for the muslim…Either there is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or there is the God Allah, Ishmael and Mohammed.

            It’s that simple regards perpetual conflict from the muslim.

            Muhammed has staked his claim to the messenger status that Alah will subdue all , hence the urgency of the extremists.

    • avi barzel

      Is this you, Mr Blofeld? No, I shouldl think not; you are likely an imposter, Sir. Mr B disdained such bourgeoisie affections (afflictions?) like restrictive paragraphs, wasteful punctuation conventions, tyrannical sentence structure. He, like the Elizabethans found his own creative ways to spell words (and never twice the same way), and preferred to flood with delightful run-on sentences in a stream of consciousness flow which filled one’s screen from top to bottom. Explain yourself, Mister.

      • Dreadnaught

        Affectations

        • avi barzel

          Ha! Got me on this one!!!! Egg on my face. Well, in my defense, I do at least put apostrophes where they belong.

          • Dreadnaught

            Avi – while you are about; may I ask a personal question without opening it out any further? I don’t know any Jewish people to ask – but do you think that being Jewish is actually a ‘racial’ (in the benign sense) trait. As I said I’m searching for an ‘inside’ understanding only, in this request. Kind regards.

          • dannybhoy

            Good question Dreadnaught.

          • Dreadnaught

            I hate it when language (especially my own) is devalued by misappropriation of meaning Dan. Bit like swearing, as a part of every day speech devalues the appropriate effectiveness of choice Anglo-Saxonisms that act as the pressure-relief valves we all need from time to time.

          • avi barzel

            The question is hardly personal, Dreadnought, the issue of race affects all of us. While we now know that race is a biologically measurable fact, not just a social construct as it’s been argued (in the commendable attempt to counter racial discrimination), there is not a single iota of evidence to support notions that racial differences account for IQ or behavioral differences in humans. We all share the same genes and the differences in the alleles, whose distribution is so confusing that they cannot account for differences in individual and group behavior.

            So, while Jews may, in the aggregate, show common ancestry…as well as significant DNA affinities with neighbouring populations…it plays no role in what classical and contemporary Judaism defines as Jew. What differences there are between Jews and non-Jews are entirely socio-cultural and a matter of Covenantal belonging and loyalty, a fact recognized in Jewish theology and law. This is expressed by the fact that one can become a Jew or cease to be a Jew through a legitimate conversion in the first instance, and a separation from Jews and an adoption of another religion after a generation or more in the second.

            Theologically, the mainstream position as shown by the Torah and the opinions of the early sages is that there is no innate racial or supernatural difference between Jews and non-Jews other than the fact that Jews take on through birth and education the duty of the Commandments issued at Sinai directed at Jews…the much misunderstood and maligned idea of Jewish chosenness. The concept of a purer or in some other way different Jewish soul is of later and highly questionable cabbalistic, Hasidic and Lubavitch provenance, and is not universally accepted as valid. The “softer” idea that upon conversion one acquires a Jewish soul is equally shaky.

          • Dreadnaught

            Excellent. I shall save your words. Thank you.

          • avi barzel

            Welcome. Save my words if you must, but consider them as my opinion.

          • Dreadnaught

            And everyone’s got one of those, but not always expressed well. Cheers!

      • Old Blowers

        Good Lord, Avi.

        It seems like there has been an imposter out there blogging on my account, that was presenting me and my thoughts in a most wonderful light ..”preferred to flood with delightful run-on sentences in a stream of consciousness flow which filled one’s screen from top to bottom. ” *Gulp* STREWTH!!!

        Old Ernst had better pay the imposter handsomely to keep up the pretentious pretence!!! *Chortles*

        Blowers

        How are you, Avi Lad.

        • avi barzel

          Gosh! It is indeed you, Mr Blowers. At least judging by the psychometrics and stylistic idiosyncracies. The inclusion of paragraphs must be to confound enemies.

          I am well, thank you, busy lately with establishing my pre-trucker trade…more on that one later when I’m ready to “out” myself.

          And you, Sir? Your health improved or holding steady, God-willing? And back at work as you once considered? That would explain the shorter posts…supervisors and underlings peeking over your long-suffering, burden-pressed shoulders can certainly cramp one’s style.

          • Old Blowers

            ” And back at work as you once considered? That would explain the shorter posts…supervisors and underlings peeking over your long-suffering, burden-pressed shoulders can certainly cramp one’s style.”
            Ernst now works on behalf of Her Majesty’s Service. Oh how times have changed…and the irony, ooh the irony. *Giggles*

            Blowers

            PS

            “The inclusion of paragraphs must be to confound enemies.” Simply that I am not rambling on, ‘ressembler’, Old Jim or Uncle Albert with me current post! *Humungous Guffaws and Sniggers*

          • avi barzel

            Congratulations, Mr Blowers! Well done, Sir! Her Majesty’s Service and perhaps even old Yurupp will never be the same again.

  • Anton

    Time to add a third verse to a well-known chorus…

    These are the days of Jeremiah

    Speaking God’s word full of doom

    And these are the days of the prophet Amos

    filling the church full of gloom.

    False prophets may speak of Revival

    Sing choruses saying all’s fine

    But we know the truth of our own situationOur way of life’s right on
    the line.

  • To the Free Speech and ‘Je suis Charlie’ brigade.

    What about Theresa May’s ban on Robert Spencer?

  • Is this response from Bill Donohue wrong:

    “Killing in response to insult, no matter how gross, must be unequivocally condemned. That is why what happened in Paris cannot be tolerated. But neither should we tolerate the kind of intolerance that provoked this violent reaction …

    While some Muslims today object to any depiction of the Prophet, others do not. Moreover, visual representations of him are not proscribed by the Koran. What unites Muslims in their anger against Charlie Hebdo is the vulgar manner in which Muhammad has been portrayed. What they object to is being intentionally insulted over the course of many years. On this aspect, I am in total agreement with them.

    Stephane Charbonnier, the paper’s publisher, was killed today in the slaughter. It is too bad that he didn’t understand the role he played in his tragic death. In 2012, when asked why he insults Muslims, he said, “Muhammad isn’t sacred to me.” Had he not been so narcissistic, he may still be alive. Muhammad isn’t sacred to me, either, but it would never occur to me to deliberately insult Muslims by trashing him.

    Anti-Catholic artists in this country have provoked me to hold many demonstrations, but never have I counseled violence. This, however, does not empty the issue. Madison was right when he said, “Liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as the abuses of power.”

    And following the outrage this:

    “My position is this: the murderers are fully responsible for what they did and should be treated with the full force of the law. Nothing justifies the killing of these people. But this is not the whole of this issue.

    The cartoonists, and all those associated with Charlie Hebdo, are no champions of freedom. Quite the opposite: their obscene portrayal of religious figures—so shocking that not a single TV station or mainstream newspaper would show them—represents an abuse of freedom.

    Freedom of speech is not an end—it is a means to an end. For Americans, the end is nicely spelled out in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution: the goal is to “form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”

    No fair-minded reading of the Preamble suggests that it was written to facilitate the right to intentionally and persistently insult people of faith with scatological commentary. Moreover, the purpose of free speech is political discourse: it exists to protect the right of men and women to agree and disagree about the makings of the good society.

    Let’s forget about legalities. As I have said countless times, everyone has a legal right to insult my religion (or the religion of others), but no one has a moral right to do so. Can we please have this conversation, along with what to do about Muslim barbarians who kill because they are offended?”

    • avi barzel

      Well, he’ll surely get skewered by some, Jack. Yet the fellow is not entirely unreasonable in that we shouldn’t canonize Charlie Hebdo as a paragon of journalism and liberty; it is (was?) a jejune rag created by intellectual punks and one hardly calling for emulation.

      Still, the problem we face is that Western liberalism is beginning to fold from sheer fear of Muslim violence. The equivocation and the culture of mourning, so well depicted by Peter Hitchens in Ian Cad’s link, has taken over. The refusal to republish the “offending” caricatures, at least for the time being and at least as a sign of protest, is troubling. A massive, simultaneous republication would diffuse the danger and send a clear message that violence and threats will not guarantee results. What will happen is that with the current self-censorship and navel-gazing, the goal posts will be shifted until we get to the point where any critique of Islam, and Islam only, will be shunned and legally proscribed. The cowardice of the elites and the public at large is already evident; inviting Abbas, a terrorist by all definitions, to the grand French orgy of protest marches is an example. And what are they protesting against now? Why, a vague and highly selective notion of “terrorism” in the abstract.

      • For our rulers to admit they were wrong about Islam and mass immigration would mean they would have to admit they were wrong about very much else as well.

        Hence the systematic denial that Islam has anything to do with terrorism. The prophets prophecy falsely. They have healed the wound of my people lightly saying ‘Peace! Peace! ‘ where there is no peace.

        • avi barzel

          You make as good point there, Dr Hayes. Such an admission would mean forfeiting their substantial “investments,” ideological as well as monetary ones. What we’ll most likely see is them doubling down…sort of what is happening with the “global warming” farce. The more evidence that emerges against it, the more strident the arguments and the more oppressive the regulations and legislations. I predict that massive demonstrations and lofty declarations notwithstanding, future historians will point to the “Charlie Hebdo incident” as the beginning of the end of journalistic freedoms.

          • CliveM

            Avi

            With regards ‘journalistic freedoms’ and Islam, the rot set in years ago. The response of large sections of the media to the Danish cartoons show that.

          • avi barzel

            Having a bit of time on my hands today, I’ve been scanning Canadian and US media for commentaries. You are right about the rot having set years ago, but today the acrid smell of pissed-in trousers dominates.

          • CliveM

            You always did have a way with words!

            I wouldn’t disagree, just some of the trousers have been washed out a few times now!

          • avi barzel

            What an elegant way to proceed from a thesis towards an antithesis and then to cap it off so brilliantly with a compromise of a synthesis. You wouldn’t be a bloody egghead of a card-carrying Bolshie now, would you Clive? One is compelled to ask in these tumultous times.

          • CliveM

            Eh no. I think……….,!

      • Hi avi

        It’s about getting over the culture of fear. Unfortunately the German newspaper that did republish the French cartoons was on the receiving end of an arson attack at the weekend :coincidence? I had a bit of difficulty getting people to understand how I could support Charlie Hebdo in being able to express biting, even crude satire, even when it included one cartoon which mocked haredi Jews ,whilst at the same time disapproving of its content.

        • avi barzel

          More than one cartoon, Miss Hannah, and quite a bit of rabid hostility to Israel as well. And of course it’s fear which drives the weak response…something to which a few honest journalists actually admitted to…but most prefer cover up their fear as principled reluctance to offend people of all religions, which is utter nonsense, of course. Interesting how all the “protest” cartoons obediently refrain from any critique of Islam, preferring such tame symbols like broken pens and such! It’s quite pathetic.

          • Hi avi,

            I should have written “a cartoon”. The refusal to republish the cartoons is self indeed self censorship. It is pathetic to a degree, but unfortunately I can fully understand how an editor must feel with the potential consequences of publishing a cartoon and seeing his/her staff slaughtered by jihadists… But then the same editor might not think twice before sending a correspondent to a war/disaster zone or publishing anti Christian or anti Israeli cartoons……such is the state of the west.

          • dannybhoy

            Yes, the Western world is becoming lost in the swamp of moral relativism, and no longer knows what it really stands for.
            But it has no problem understanding violence and coercion.

            Of course I will say that it is as a result of our abandonment of Judaeo/Christian morality….
            This is heavy stuff folks. The foundations of western civilisation are being threatened like never before, whilst many of us are only concerned about online bingo and what is happening in our favourite soap operas…

          • CliveM

            Online Bingo and soaps are probably doing more to undermine western civilisation then some tatty rag, that frankly most of us hadn’t heard of and less of us cared to read.

      • dannybhoy

        That fear has been present for quite some time now Avi, but our leaders have continued to pretend that the gods of consumerism have more to offer than devotion to Islam..

        • avi barzel

          True, the fear has been there since the mid-70s, but this incident will lay it out in the bright light for all to see and will most likely result in a cascade of defeats on numerous fronts. Quite the opposite from a wake-up call or a principled resolve, which is what I hoped for.

          • dannybhoy

            Your “principled resolve” is being progressed in the Houses of Human Rights by the Pragmatic Priesthood. After scrutiny for offensive moral content, and inclusion of empty gesture addendums, will be presented to the European Council of Islam for final approval..

          • avi barzel

            Well. Looks like you folks over there have it all worked out. An addendum to be considered perhaps right after final decisions on the aithorized length and diameter of the Macedonian breakfast sausage. One is at times ever so grateful for the expanse of the big puddle between us Colonials and you aboriginals, price of airfares and cramped seats notwithstanding.

          • dannybhoy

            (pulls face and blows raspberry)
            Actually things are getting just as bad south of Canada..

          • avi barzel

            And in Canada as well, among our social and intellectual betters for now, and with a vengeance, should our Liberal party grab the next government, perish that thought.

            Btw, I would expect that along with prohibitions of offensive cartoons employing anything deemed by an appointed board of experts to resemble beards and turbans, insulting and provocative establishments such as kosher supermarkets would be banned as well. It would only be fair. Egalité et fraternite.

          • dannybhoy

            Avi,
            I don’t believe in insulting things so as to demonstrate my freedom of speech. I was brought up (unlike Clive) to respect people’s religious and cultural beliefs whilst having the freedom to question them..

          • CliveM

            DB

            this is becoming persecution and just a little bit obsessive!

            I am very tolerant of anyone who agrees with me.

          • IanCad

            I am very suspicious of anyone who agrees with me.

          • CliveM

            Thing is it happens so infrequently to me, I get carried away!

          • SimonToo

            Clearly there is a distinction to be made between freedom of speech and Tourette’s syndrome. One does not have to be offensive to argue. It would be ridiculous to suggest that someone’s speech was unfree simply because it was not offensive. Many people do argue freely without wilfully causing offence. None of them, though, has much future as a satirist.

          • dannybhoy

            Good points. Maybe I’m squeamish but someone here mentioned something “Charlie Hebdo” did, depicting the Holy Trinity doing something disgusting even in human terms let alone the Divine.
            That is not satire imv, that is deliberately depraved and insulting. I feel the same about any “lampooning” of a deity or a person regarded as being holy and pure. Scripture is about the eternal, about man and his relationship to God. These are not issues to be taken lightly, so how can a “satirist” argue that grotesque and derisory pictures are truly representative of free speech in a “civilised” society?
            To me it’s more like blasphemous pornography.
            In an admittedly odd way, I link it to maliciously making fun of a person with physical defects or disfigurements which they can do nothing about. The only difference of course is that either the deity or their followers can strike you down…
            To write in the reasoned manner of Richard Dawkins or other atheists in which belief is derided or attacked, fine. That is free speech.

    • dannybhoy

      Well said Jacko.
      “The cartoonists, and all those associated with Charlie Hebdo, are no
      champions of freedom. Quite the opposite: their obscene portrayal of
      religious figures—so shocking that not a single TV station or mainstream
      newspaper would show them—represents an abuse of freedom.”

      Says so much better what I was trying to say the other day.

      • The words were Bill Donohue’s and were not well received in America.

        • dannybhoy

          Jack,
          There is a lot to like and admire about the best of American culture. However in following American blogs and news outlets it seems that there is a growing polarisation and oversimplifying of the issues in American politics. Either you are for the party or agin it, there is no room for nuanced views.
          Perhaps because of the way they do political stuff
          (Rah! Rah” Rah!! Four more years etc.) but along with the partisan viewpoints there is a growing hostility, intolerance even towards those who disagree.
          The last President I remember who discussed and debated the issues in a civilised way was Ronald Reagan, to my mind a great President. Since his time it seems to me, Presidents resemble cartoon caricatures, either sleazy or inane, talking in slogans and soundbites. Not a Statesman among them.
          Mind you, we’re going the same way.

    • Linus

      Complete drivel.

      Charb was completely within his rights to publish those cartoons. Liberty of expression is guaranteed by our Constitution and blasphemy has not existed as an actionable offence since the Revolution.

      It doesn’t matter how blasphemous you thought those cartoons were, blasphemy is not a crime in France. It may offend, but that is the problem of the person who is offended, who must deal with his feelings of offence in a responsible and law-abiding manner. Using hurt feelings as justification for murder is utterly abhorrent. Trying to manipulate and frighten someone into imposing self-censorship for fear of causing offence is quite simply an attack on basic liberty of expression.

      One thing is clear: the offending cartoons of Mahomet have been republished all over the world following the Charlie Hebdo atrocities. They have been viewed by millions more than would have seen them if the crazed religionists who perpetrated this crime had been sane enough to deal with their offended feelings in a law-abiding manner. And they haven’t even succeeded in killing the magazine. A public subscription has been started to keep it going, come what may. The government has already donated 1M€ to the fund. Sister publications are sheltering what remains of its staff and a new edition will be released this week with a print run 10 times bigger than before. Rumour has it that the cartoons we’ve already seen will be tame in comparison to what’s coming. So much for avenging the prophet.

      Charlie Hebdo is not dead and it will continue to do exactly what it did before. The whole of France is now behind it.

      I don’t care if you Anglo-saxons think it’s moral to give into bullying and fear. That’s your affair and you can be as craven as you like. It certainly won’t surprise us. But we will continue to speak our minds and allow everyone to freely express their opinions, no matter who they offend. If we cede any moral ground to these fundamentalist thugs and let them control what we say and what we think, they win. And they will not win.

      • Linus, Jack understands English isn’t your first language but you’ve completely missed the points being made. Try reading the post again.

        • Linus

          The quotes you posted maintained that Charb did not have the moral right to insult Islam and that he should have self-censored those cartoons and refrained from publishing them in order to avoid offending Muslims.

          This is wrong. Charb had the absolute moral right to freely express his opinion without stopping for a second to consider how Muslims might feel about it.

          No believer has the right to expect those who do not share his beliefs to treat them as sacred or even respect them. Your beliefs are not sacred to me and I’m under no obligation to respect them. If I find them ridiculous and wrong, I’m at perfect liberty to say so and expose you ridicule for believing them. THAT is true freedom of expression.

      • Old Blowers

        ” Rumour has it that the cartoons we’ve already seen will be tame in
        comparison to what’s coming. So much for avenging the prophet.” Sky has just reported that Charlie Hebdo will publish a cartoon of ‘he who must not be named or drawn by infidels’ holding up a banner stating ‘Je Suis Charlie’.

        Take that Islamist Extremists, eh. You ain’t scared the merd out of the French, ave ya.

        *hoots*

      • avi barzel

        Here’s an Amglo-Saxon idiomatic expression worth assimilating, dear boy: You’re preaching to the choir. And yes, as Jack says, do read on past the first sentence before (here come more idioms) blowing your gaskets and launching into a jeremiad.

      • Hi there Linus

        Great and spare a thought for France’s Jews whilst you at it.

        Je suis Juif…

        • Linus

          Actually, vous êtes plutôt Juive …

          I do spare a thought for French Jews. Thousands were already leaving the country because of the climate of insecurity that previous attacks by crazed Muslim fundamentalists had created. This latest atrocity can only hasten their departure.

          France without a strong Jewish community will be a poorer nation. Jews have played key roles in the the development and maintenance of our Republic since its very inception.

          I condemn anti-semitic attacks just as strongly as I condemn attacks on freedom of expression. Not only do we have a fundamental right to speak our minds, we also have a fundamental right to exist as equal citizens of the Republic no matter what our ethnic or religious origins.

          So if I say “Je suis Charlie”, I also mean “Je suis Juif”. I am not Jewish, but I stand with Jews and share their grief, shock and sense of outrage. It cannot be allowed to happen again.

          • Dreadnaught

            2000 Nigerians were murdered last week and barely made the headlines – but that’s another story

          • Linus

            They weren’t murdered on my doorstep and I know nothing of their situation. The journalists and cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo and the members of the Jewish community who were gunned down in cold blood were my neighbours. It’s right and normal that their fate should be my primary concern.

            Which is not to say that this Nigerian massacre has nothing to do with me. I don’t know anything about it. I don’t know anything about the political situation in Nigeria, which, as a country firmly situated in the British sphere of influence, is relatively unknown to us here in France. But still, if people are being murdered there, I support efforts to halt those crimes. But as a Frenchman with no knowledge of the country or the situation, what exactly can I do?

      • Dreadnaught

        This was not really about cartoons. It was about achieving maximum publicity to keep ‘the cause’ in the headlines for the benefit of recruiting the next generations of Jihadis.

        The murder of the police woman was to distract the police from the chase of the murdering brothers.

        When it didn’t fully work and the brothers got holed up in the print works the black guy attacked the Jewish deli to use the hostages as bargaining chips – to the advantage of the other two.

        The point of the atrocities in the first place is to cause a non-Muslim backlash in the host countries and generate a sense of alienation and victim mentality among Muslims in the West. All Muslims will be united in experiencing some form of disapproval if not outright hostility thus perpetuating the breeding ground for future Jihadis.
        Islamist know all about playing the long game – they’ve been at it for 1500 years.

        • Old Blowers

          spot on, you old git

        • And didn’t Charlie play right into their hands.

    • carl jacobs

      Yes, Jack, He is wrong. We don’t need to have a conversation about the moral limits of speech. There is no abuse of freedom in these cartoons when viewed from the perspective of legal guarantees extended to citizens. It’s true that every man will give an account for every idle word he speaks. That has nothing to do with the civil law. There are other ways to deal with vulgarity and mockery. Not the least of which is to ignore it. Who gives a damn about some cartoon published in some Left-wing atheist rag? So they hate us? Why should we care?

      This is a direct attempt to assert ownership over the Islamic narrative by means of violence. Next time it won’t be some scatological reference. It will be the doctrinal offense of asserting that Jesus was crucified. That’s the problem, Jack. Offense is an inherently subjective and undefinable standard. You should’t create a law the enforceability of which turns on the subjective opinion of the victim.

      • This was the pivotal consideration for Jack:

        “Freedom of speech is not an end—it is a means to an end. For Americans, the end is nicely spelled out in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution: the goal is to “form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

        No fair-minded reading of the Preamble suggests that it was written to facilitate the right to intentionally and persistently insult people of faith with scatological commentary. Moreover, the purpose of free speech is political discourse: it exists to protect the right of men and women to agree and disagree about the makings of the good society.”

        Incitement and provocation are not the same as free expression. Granted incitement is subjective but in this instance it was blatantly clear. You don’t taunt people with the deaths of Muslim children; you don’t taunt terrorists with claims that their threats to attack France are hollow. Jack considers this an abuse of liberty designed to provoke the very reaction it received.

        • carl jacobs

          So we have a blatantly clear instance of a subjective standard Do you not see the problem here.

          That cartoon you mentioned previously mentioned about the Trinity. It did not viscerally offend me. I found it sad and vulgar, the work of a sad and vulgar mind. Depravity reveals itself through its work. Do we have to get enraged over the logical outworking of man’s nature? Shouldn’t we expect unbelievers to behave like unbelievers?

          So then if these instances are so blatantly clear, then why am I not viscerally offended? I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me. But I just can’t manufacture visceral offense. I find it hard to care about some cartoon in a paper that I don’t read. God is not damaged. He doesn’t forget. He will demand an account.

          I can’t even explain why that cartoon doesn’t offend me while POTC does offend me. Or Life of Brian. This is what is wrong with making a subjective standard like “offense” actionable. There is no way to predict it because every individual will draw a different line. You end up banning everything lest anyone be offended.

          • Carl, this was an instance of incitement not freedom of expression.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack

            Would the cartoon about the Trinity also be an instance of incitement? Then why am I not provoked or incited by it? Because I am not.

            You keep saying these things are blatantly clear. Well, they aren’t to me. And I am not sure they are so blatantly clear for Muslims either This isn’t about provocation. It’s about ownership. It’s about control and power and dominance. Don’t trivialize this as an over-reaction to provocation.

            Assume that these Muslims had instead shot up a church because it preached Christ crucified. Would you still be talking about incitement and provocation? To talk about the provocation of these cartoons as motive for the attack is to implicitly mitigate the offense. That you should not do.

          • You’re overlooking context, Carl. And understanding motive is not the same as mitigating the attack. There is no mitigation. Jack has witnessed this type of needless provocation and incitement in Belfast. It’s an abuse of freedom of expression.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack

            I’m not overlooking context. You are ignoring my question. Why was I not as viscerally offended by the cartoon as I was by POTC? if these things are so clear, then why am I not flowing the pattern?

          • “Why was I not asWhy was I not as viscerally offended by the cartoon as I was by POTC?offended by the cartoon as I was by POTC?”

            Okay, Dr Spock, it’s probably because your logic and reason overcomes any emotional response you might feel. Not everyone’s the same and groups do act irrationally.

            Are you saying there should be no limits on freedom of expression, regardless of potential impact or context. Say a paper wanted to mock the Jews by depicting them burning in gas chambers and suggesting they got what they deserved? Or a paper wanted to run a series of cartoons with homosexuals dying of AIDS with a similar theme? Or articles mocking the death of black Americans at the hands of the police? Not wise? Immoral? Not a threat to law and order? Or how about soldiers who died or were seriously maimed fighting for their country being presented as idiots?

            There are limits – and they are moral – and that’s the discussion Bill Donohue has invited.

          • carl jacobs

            You know, there is a lot to be said for Vulcans. And it’s Mr Spock. Dr Spock was that quack who wrote a book a raising kids.

            But you want a conversation? Fine. Begin by giving me an objective definition of offense that can be realized in statute law.

          • You admire Vulcans? All left side of the brain without the
            corpus collosum engaging the right side? It figures.

            That’s the problem, common decency can’t be encoded in law and calls for moral restraint, not necessarily legal restraint.

            As a minimum, Jack thinks that it should be illegal to express ideas in hateful ways that are unnecessary and in ways that will be experienced as intolerable towards individuals or groups and as a result lead to violence.

            So, take Jack’s examples. Mocking the Jews by depicting them burning in gas chambers and suggesting they got what they deserved. Homosexuals dying of AIDS. Articles mocking the death of black Americans at the hands of the police. The last example would surely meet these criteria at this time. The others would depend on particular circumstances.

          • Book Haram understand this. That why they shoot up and bomb churches. Because whenever Christians proclaim and worship Christ as Savior and Lord we ‘insult the prophet.’

  • Old Blowers

    I hear they are publishing 3 million copies of Charlie Hebdo on wednesday.

    Think I’ll just stick with me white Andrex or The Sun… Me toilet papers of choice. I’m such a devoted and loyal customer. Once I start using certain products, I find it difficult to consider using other potential rivals . *Chuckles*

    • Dreadnaught

      Real men prefer Bronco or Izal – they put the Skid into Skidmarks.

      • Old Blowers

        “Real men prefer Bronco or Izal” However I am decrepit and have no desire to house me nut selection in a posing sack.

        I only use lily white Y fronts. Winds up Mrs B no end come washtime. *Sniggers*

        • avi barzel

          Good Heavens, it is indeed the old Mr Blowers.

          • Old Blowers

            qui d’autre/וואס אַנדערש

          • dannybhoy

            I was trying to decipher your Hebrew.
            First word “Was”?
            Second word “Anders”?

          • avi barzel

            That’s what I’m reading too. The two vavs denoting “w” suggest Yiddish “voss” for what.

          • dannybhoy

            He’s either swearing (seems probable) or Anders Woss is a relative of Jonathan.
            Cryptic I know. My bro in law knows some Yiddish and he taught me “Gantze Macher” (Big shot or someone who makes things happen?) I just love the way it sounds..

          • Old Blowers

            “”He’s either swearing (seems probable)”” How bloody very dare you. *oops*

          • dannybhoy

            two vavs, aleph and samekh, yes?
            Yiddish is a mixture of German, Polish and Hebrew I heard.
            I love the old songs. We had a British singer called Issy Bonn years back, who sang beautifully Mein Yiddishe Mama…

          • Hi Danny

            I think it’s Yiddish (will ask my girlfriend).

          • dannybhoy

            Hiya Hannale.
            What’s Old Blowhard doing with Yiddish?

          • avi barzel

            “Don’t ask; don’t tell” protocol applies when it comes to Mr Blowers. It’s for our own safety.

          • Hi Danny,

            Sarah says blowers means “who else”?

          • dannybhoy

            Sarah’s right then according to Avi -but as Yiddish or German?

          • Old Blowers

            it’s yiddish!!!!!!!

          • avi barzel

            Duh! I finally clued in. Similar to German, “was anders”: what else!

          • Old Blowers

            Huge chuckles

          • dannybhoy

            Clever stuff!
            Is that right Blowers?

          • Old Blowers

            It’s Yiddish…The clue was in the french term of reference!!

          • dannybhoy

            Yes cos the french is “who else”!
            Well, I’m glad you got that cleared up,,,

          • Old Blowers

            I’am actually quite cheesed off now,

            Rather than take loads of pills/medication and be holed up in bed, should have booted up pc and come straight to Crannies. I now feel invigorated.

            Better than prescribed medication.

            Thanks all.

            Blowers

          • avi barzel

            That’s truly great Mr B. I too kind of stumbled in today and stuck around, after a bit of a hiatus and a week of being in a funk with a weird sort of a flu and have been chortling through the day. Better than un-prescribed medication too.

        • Dreadnaught

          Too much information

          • Old Blowers

            Mrs B always said I’d end up on Skid Row or I think that’s what she said ?, I wasn’t really paying attention…She tends to drone on like Uncle Albert or Old Jim *chortles*

  • Old Blowers

    “It is time for Muslims to laugh in the face of this, and to greet
    cartoonists, comedians and Merry-Abduls not with scorn, hatred and
    bloody threats, but with an alcohol-free beer, a joke and a smile.” God bless you, Your Grace…The eternal optimist.

    I have often wondered over the last few days, if the terrorists had the guts to try this madness in a McDonalds in the Bronx.

    Probably would have been shot to death by arm bearing citizens before they could scream “Allah Ak…” Du Du Du Da Dah..I’m Lov’n it.

    Happy Meals all round!!

    • avi barzel

      In Texas they would have had their heads atomized to a pink fog by a dozen of open-carry citizens just for looking funny.

      • Old Blowers

        *Huge Cackles*

  • Old Blowers

    Goodness.

    British MSM pulling out the stops to get british muslims on the big screen to say how lovely and cuddly Allah and Islam truly is.

    Amir Khan and Rageh Omar wheeled out.

    We are truly honoured. God bless british MSM.

    Blowers

    • The stench of takkiyah is almost worse than the sight and sound of our opinion leaders falling over themselves to swallow it. Especially the BBC-wall to wall takkiyah.

      To paraphrase Lenin, ‘when the time comes to behead the infidels, they will lend us the sword to do it.’

  • IanCad

    Six hundred and more!!
    I’ve hung around here for a few years and don’t recall anything like this number before.
    There was a thread relating to Dawkins a couple of years back. Four hundred or so.
    HG has joined the ranks of the mighty in the blogosphere.
    Well deserved!!

  • Mike Stallard

    If you want to meet the real Prophet, I reckon you cannot do better than read al Bukhari. Even down to details about how he took a bath after having sex!