Mrs Proudie
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Does a vicar’s daughter tell fibs? Surely not.

Goodness! Who now doubts the pen is mightier than the sword? With several flourishes, President Trumpelstiltskin begins his revolution, so it is away with this and away with that. Of course, this has not gone down well with all the snowflakes, who are melting with fury in the glare of Washington’s new dawn. The Jupiter reports that women all over the world have been marching up and down in protest, wailing against a man they despise, a man who will rob them of their human rights. Interestingly, they haven’t protested outside the various Arabian embassies against female genital mutilation, forced child marriages and patriarchal oppression for fear of giving offence, which makes me question their commitment to feminism somewhat. Why do I mention this? Well, the Jupiter report on petticoat-power inspired the ladies of the Barchester Anti-flatulence League to stage their own protest in the Cathedral Square:

“No more Trumping!” they cried, “Trump Not that ye be not Trumped!” and “To Trump is to Offend!”

I think several wires got crossed with that one. So much hot air, and none of it fragrant. However, I was determined to find out more, and sent Mr. Slope off, suitably disguised in crinoline, shawl and poke bonnet, to take soundings. Alas, I am still waiting his return. Mr. Bunce said he was last seen arm in arm with a Jolly Jack Tar heading for the ‘Ferret and Trousers” on Fumble Street. No bedtime cocoa for him!

When my Lord the Bishop mentioned, in a letter to an American clergyman, that it was necessary to embark on a major fund-raising campaign to repair the wall of the North transept, he had no idea of what was to come. Only yesterday, the doorbell rang and Spasm, our butler, went to see who it was. He quickly returned, eyes popping and all of a fluster.

“Madam, there are some Mexican gentlemen awaiting your pleasure outside.”

Naturally, I went immediately, for opportunities like these are few and far between. There on the step were some twenty or thirty sombrero-topped Latinos with hods, trowels and bags of cement.

“We are lend-lease from El Presidente Trumpero,” said one, “We come fix the wall.” He flashed a smile of dazzling white and twirled a roguish moustache.

It appears President Trump heard of our plight and sent on the vanguard of his workforce to be of assistance. So very kind. They set to work immediately, and before the day was out the stonework was as good as new and the gargoyles had smiles on their faces. When they said their ‘Adios’ and strode into the sunset, one could not help feeling a little Zorro…

I see Lola Montez has managed to bamboozle the Supreme Court into supporting her anti-Brexit challenge (she goes by another name now but I would recognise that dusky minx anywhere, flashing her briefs about like no tomorrow, all because she got her hands on poor King Ludwig’s family jewels). So Parliament must now vote on leaving the Zollverein, or at least on triggering Article 50. (One would have thought 39 Articles were enough for anyone). How very vexing for Mrs. Dismay: almost as vexing as finding a couturier who doesn’t make her look like Joseph Grimaldi’s sister. There is one delicious aspect to this debacle, and that is the poisoned dwarf across the border has been denied a say in negotiations, and on this Burns Night is forced to eat humble pie, not haggis. We too shall dine on haggis: one feels one has had a surfeit of sturgeon.

Of course, Mrs. Dismay has other worries, some involving missiles that go astray. Plenty of that sort of thing went on at Balaclava when Miss Nightingale’s gentle hands brought relief to wounded soldiers. All sorts of things came poking through the tent flaps – it was a good thing that she was trained to disarm them with a quick flick of the wrist. Mrs. Dismay’s missile however packed a bigger punch than anything Johnnie Turk threw at us, so the incident could have been nasty. The question seems to be – did she know things had gone wrong when speaking to the House of Commons in a debate on Trident or not? Does a vicar’s daughter tell fibs? Surely not.

Well, my dears, I must dash. I am organising a charity tombola in the Chapter House on behalf of the dispossessed hereditary peerage. After centuries of service to crown and country these poor souls were booted out of the House of Lords by the Beastly Blair, and are desperately in need of succour. If only Mrs. Dismay could call upon their support when the Brexit Bill goes to the Upper House, but alas she cannot. There is talk of ‘Sunset Peers’, a strange concept indeed, but then so is papal infallibility and the morality of neo-Liberals. Until next week, may the tweeting of Faith echo across the slough of despond, and the darling buds of May remain a mystery to us all.

  • michaelkx

    thank you once again for your most informative piece. But Mr Slope going to the Ferret and Trousers, my dear lady I fear he will not be the same when he returns. you must keep an eye on him, and check under the bed for ‘pink news’.

    • Bernard from Bucks

      Poor Mr Slope from Pitlochry,
      His morals were truly a mockery;
      For under his bed,
      He’d a fellow instead
      Of the usual porcelain crockery.

  • Dreadnaught

    After the depravities of the previous thread, your Saturday time shift is all the more welcome my starch crinolined little Doxie. As for your self crafted renaming of our PM to Mrs Dismay; that would have been all well and good if she was in a relationship with that bent horned musician Dizzy D’Israeli, but she’s not. I would suggest that you could consider that she be referred to as ‘Mrs T. Maybe’, given the uncertainty of these precarious times. I remain madam, your creeping, hever so ‘umble and hunworthy servant etc etc.

    • Manfarang

      And what if you saw your Mrs. holding another man’s hand?

      • Dreadnaught

        Better that than Mr T’s preferred location to grab.

  • len

    The deal has been done, no “no ifs, buts, or Maybes”
    Were on our way la de da de da de da
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqM3wTR7g-4

    • Manfarang

      It’s the Art of the Deal. Getting someone to bail you out of bankruptcy.

  • Albert

    Trumpelstiltskin Marvellous!

    • Manfarang

      Spinning lies into truth eh?

      • Albert

        Or just gold into straw. We shall see.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    I don’t know whether the vicar’s daughter tells fibs but she does say strange things occasionally. I’m thinking of the way she sang the praises of globalism, climate change alarmism, the religion of peace, and even the EU. I suspect it was just a tease to see how many faces turned red. Naughty girl. I suspect your anti-flatulence movement is actually a new incarnation of the so-called “Greens” Mrs Proudie. Both are obsessed with the dangers of swamp gas. I guess they are called Greens because of their naivety and their tendency yo look as attractive as a vegetable – quite unlike your charming portrait.

    • Dreadnaught

      I wonder if when he steps down they’ll name a town after him like;
      Charleston or
      Washington, or
      Jefferson or as I rather fancy, – Trumpton.

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Doncaster?

        • Dreadnaught

          Don Corleoni has that one boxed off with the rest of the Rhubarb Triangle mob.

  • Redrose82

    You need a “Trump” to build a wall and a “Trumpet” to bring it tumbling down.

    • Manfarang

      The Great Wall of the Gringos eh?

      • IrishNeanderthal

        “Joshua fit the battle of Mexico —
        And the walls come a-tumbling down!”

  • Inspector General

    We live in exciting times, Mrs Proudie. It is gratifying that throughout this turbulence, we can always count on your weekly flapdoodle to guide us through it. Well done, Madam!

    • Manfarang

      And with Yankee Doodle Donald more turbulence to come.

  • dannybhoy

    Here’s the email I sent to https://www.womensmarchlondon.com/

    http://www.christiantoday.com/article/raped.murdered.and.persecuted.by.isis.the.plight.of.yazidis.in.iraq/86186.htm

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9824/yazidi-sex-slave-women-march

    “It is sad that no marches have been made to protest the plight of religious and cultural groups whose women and girls are being enslaved, raped, tortured and murdered.
    The American election is over. There is no proof of fixing or vote rigging. Other American presidents Kennedy, Clinton also have less than savoury records of their behaviour towards women. 52% of American women who voted voted for Donald Trump.
    Is it possible that your movement has got its priorities wrong?”

    • David

      Well done for trying. But I’m afraid they are shamelessly beyond mere reason, lost in the narcissistic world of emotion and virtue signalling, whilst totally unaware of how they are being manipulated.

      • dannybhoy

        Yes, I didn’t expect an answer, but perhaps it might make one if them think.
        I was invited to a men’s breakfast this morning and people were sharing how they became Christians. Nothing spectacular, but more accruing chains of events. I think writing letters and emails is another way of standing up for and sharing the Gospel.
        Another thing that is on my heart (and I’m struggling to get organised) is “Connect and Encourage”, http://www.csw.org.uk/connectencourage.htm
        Christian Solidarity Worldwide has a downloadable A4 booklet with details of believers across the world experiencing persecution for their faith. It’s mainly a ministry of encouragement, but such a valuable one that we can be involved in regardless of age..

        • David

          Ah yes men’s breakfasts – full English plus a serving of gospel !
          I’m a recent joiner to those.
          We have meets in private houses, where we take it in turns to lead a Bible study and discussion, which is very informative. Then we also have larger ones, in a proper cafe/restaurant, with a full English followed by an interesting speaker.
          Yes they are a good form of fellowship. Of course, being early on Saturday mornings, the men are of a certain age. Younger ones are probably either enjoying a lay -in or taking kids to some activity or other.

          • dannybhoy

            It was my first in Norfolk. Just under 30 of us. Some fine Christian men amongst them, and very encouraging to meet them all.

  • David

    Aahh Mrs Proudie, you are such a welcome relief from the horrors creeping onto the last thread.
    Moreover you started me thinking about Mrs Maisie May’s truthfulness, which then led to other questions about her.
    So what for example would her dear departed (?) father the vicar, have said to her regarding her most enthusiastic importation of the same-sex marriage idea ? It was May, together with Kamikaze Cameron, and one other whose name escapes me, who were the ringleaders I recall. I also wonder what the vicar of her local church thinks of his congregant’s actions.

    • CliveM

      There is certainly a fetid atmosphere on the previous thread.

    • Dominic Stockford

      The ‘other’ was a LimpDem.

      • David

        Figures !

  • IrishNeanderthal

    What a relief this column is, coming after three most depressing missiles or missals from Cranmer, though through no fault of his when he faithfully reports what has been going on during the rest of the week.

    It is Chinese New Year, and here is a song for the occasion celebrating the coming of Spring, accompanied by a piece of electric shadow theatre proclaiming the year of the Cockerel. But your “darling buds of May” sounds quite sedate compared to “梅花吐蕊”, meaning “the plum blossom is throwing up stamens”.



    • Manfarang

      The year of the Fire Rooster.
      Sing jia u ee

    • David

      Most charming, thank you.
      I am looking forward to The Year of the Enactment of The Brexit. No doubt the professional Remoaners will be out weeping into their champagne glasses. I shall celebrate with a glass from a bottle of East Anglian whiskey. It should be nicely matured by then.

      • dannybhoy

        Norfolk?

        • David

          Yes well done, it’s just over the border from my adopted county, Suffolk. I “discovered” it just after it started up, when the whiskey was undrinkable, but had future promise. A classic car jaunt I was on stopped there for coffee. But now their product is maturing nicely, and in two years time, Brexit Liberation Year, it’ll be worth a swig or three !
          I’ve tried Welsh whiskey, many years ago, and that was fine. Irish is good, or rather, almost as good as Scottish, but half the price, so excellent value. I don’t like American bourbon though, or no, not all ! I can’t wait to get my self-imposed dry + slim January over so I can sip some alcohol.

          • dannybhoy

            I’m in South West Norfolk. The wife is Norfolk born, I’m from Kent originally.

          • David

            I’m in West Suffolk.

          • dannybhoy

            Nearest point to West Norfolk is Marham, just up the road.

          • 1642again

            Used to live in Cockfield.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            “Have you got a light, boy?”

            Seriously though, are you a Kentish man or a man of Kent?

          • dannybhoy

            Who’s that little old boy?

            Technically I’m a man of Kent, being born in the Medway towns area, but actually my roots lie in the North East as both my parents were proud Geordies, one from Jarrow one from Hebburn.

      • Manfarang

        Whisky

  • David

    Now which Scottish haggis producer will capture the commercial prize for supplying the White House with The Donald’s ancestral dish ? No one I’d think, as the US probably associates such sycophantic behaviour with royalty and all that jazz. Oh well, more’s their loss !

    • betteroffoutofit

      In my experience, most Americans believe they’re royalty (or descended from it) – they just prefer to think themselves superior to the attested article.

      As for the presidency — well, again, it’s the most powerfully regal institution on the planet, isn’t it?

      • David

        I agree with your second paragraph, but the first doesn’t square with my experience of Americans.

        • betteroffoutofit

          Yeah — sometimes they’re good at hiding it.

      • “In my experience, most Americans believe they’re royalty (or descended from it)”

        No, no. American exceptionalism is a cover for their deep sense of insecurity and lack of class.

    • carl jacobs

      Haggis is banned in the US. We are a civilized country.

      • David

        Haggis is horrible, but sscchh ! Don’t tell anyone I said that, as I have to do my patriotic duty.

        • dannybhoy

          I quite liked it actually. With plenty of vegetables and gravy. Quite tasty.

      • dannybhoy

        You’re afraid of anything that doesn’t come in a bun…..

  • Dreadnaught

    For those who think that most ordinary Americns are gullible these guys will change your mind – snippets of reaction to the Women’s March against sanity:

    https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/videos/828052167332680/

    https://www.facebook.com/Libtard1/videos/402970106705149/

    • David

      Illuminating viewing !
      Many liberals don’t want facts just emotion, very strange. But that’s how they are played by the MSM acting for globalists.

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      In the second clip, the woman holding the ‘Lock him up’ poster said, ‘I don’t want to engage with this…’which just about sums up the mind-poisoned mentality of the SJW

  • dannybhoy

    “Well, the Jupiter report on petticoat-power inspired the ladies of the Barchester Anti-flatulence League to stage their own protest in the Cathedral Square:”
    Absolutely priceless Mrs. Proudie.. one of your best.

    • Merchantman

      The Bestest.

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Bless you!

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Thank you dear dannybhoy…

  • Feminism of today was invented by the Jews. In their own words, from the Jewish Women’s Archive:

    The Feminist Revolution

    Jewish women have played key roles in building and advancing the modern American women’s movement.

    As activists, professionals, artists, and intellectuals, Jewish feminists have shaped every aspect of American life.

    https://jwa.org/feminism

  • 1642again

    Excellent, only Lola Montez was a far more beautiful and talented adventuress than the Brexit legal plaintiff, who is very much a poundshop version.

    • Anton

      Dear 1642
      I have posted a flyer for a Christian event that might be of interest to what I believe is you at your work address. From what you say it is likely that your mail will be opened by a PA, so please issue an instruction, if you are willing, to pass to you anything from Anton…

      • 1642again

        Ok Anton. I’m not convinced you’ve worked out my identity, but I know that as a theoretical physicist you’re exceptionally bright so perhaps you have!

        In return why not write an article for Going Postal on the latest cosmological evidence/arguments for the existence of God? They’re pretty compelling. GP is user generated content but it’s heart’s in the right place, even if quite eccentric at times, and the posters there are very open minded and interested in such things. It’s a bit like a village pub with a very broad cross section of people, Christians, Jews, agnostics and atheists, earthy but decent at bottom, if not for the delicate!

        • Anton

          If you receive the flyer in the next few days then please reply to the contact details on it; if not, please say so here!

          I have a 20,000-word essay on science and scripture which one of these days I’ll put online. I’d rather do that than respond to points made by others piecemeal; I’ve done it to death on other blogs entirely anonymously in the past. If I’ve identified you correctly then I can send it to you. My broadest summary is that there is active accord between science and scripture except for miracles, wherein God priorities his message to us over the laws he ordained for how his creation works.

          • 1642again

            Break it up into 1000 word chunks so it works for a mass audience.

        • Anton

          PS If I’ve misidentified you then I’d like to see the face of the guy at the other brewery when he gets the flyer…

        • Pubcrawler

          It was a joint sleuth. Anton can send you the address to send my crates of stout to.

          ta

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      I agree, Lola was quite a beauty, but equally crafty…

  • NortyNina

    The great thing about Donald Trump is that he just doesn’t care.
    He has had every pejorative thrown at him and the insults don’t work.
    The reason that they don’t work is because the people applying the insults are themselves the very thing they accuse Trump of, so they don’t have the moral authority to be taken seriously.

    • Inspector General

      Yes, it’s true. You need a man like that to take the USA to the cleaners. To thoroughly cleanse it of the grime of social corruption that has been allowed to build up…

    • That’s the thing with narcissists, they don’t care about the views of others beyond manipulating them. Know what Jack means?

      Jack notes you’ve gone “Private”. Embarrassed? Ashamed? Or just covering your tracks?

      • Inspector General

        They don’t come along very often, but when they do they are great fun. One refers to the entity which is the delicious irony. Trump, a fellow whom if you met him in the club or pub, you’d never dream of inviting home to meet the family, yet here he is. Exactly what’s needed…

        • Time will tell, Inspector.

          On the upside:

          And they cheered top officials of the new administration who spoke at the march. Their presence represented a break from previous years in which the White House was not represented in person at the rally.

          “Life is winning in America and today is a celebration of that progress,” said Vice President Mike Pence, who was joined Friday (Jan. 27) by his wife Karen and daughter Charlotte on the stage in the shadow of the Washington Monument.

          He, along with members of the crowd before the rally, highlighted Trump’s signing of a memo on Monday that re-established the so-called “Mexico City Policy,” which halts government funding of groups that support or conduct abortions overseas.

          And next week, he said, “President Donald Trump will announce his Supreme Court nominee who will uphold the God-given liberties enshrined in our Constitution in the tradition of the late and great Justice Antonin Scalia.”

          http://religionnews.com/2017/01/27/march-for-life-buoyant-over-trumps-anti-abortion-promises/

          On the downside:

          In a departure from past practice, President Trump’s statement on Friday (Jan. 27) marking International Holocaust Remembrance Day does not say anything about the deaths of six million Jews — a lapse the head of the Anti-Defamation League called “puzzling and troubling.”

          The White House statement with Trump’s remarks “misses that it was six million Jews who perished, not just ‘innocent people,’” tweeted Jonathan Greenblatt, national director of the ADL shortly after the comments were released.

          “Puzzling and troubling” that it “has no mention of Jews,” Greenblatt added in a follow-up tweet.

          Steven Goldstein, executive director of the Anne Frank Center for Mutual Respect, also blasted the statement.

          “How can you forget, Mr. President, that six million Jews were murdered because they were Jews?” Goldstein said.

          “You chose the vague phrase ‘innocent people.’ They were Jews, Mr. President. On International Holocaust Remembrance Day, you forget the Jews, and later today you plan to issue new executive orders persecuting refugees and immigrants. Have you no decency?”

          http://religionnews.com/2017/01/27/trump-statement-on-holocaust-remembrance-does-not-mention-jews/

          • Inspector General

            Something tells an Inspector that the named outraged were never over enthusiastic about a President Trump…

          • 1642again

            Given that his daughter and son-in-law are Jews and reckoned to be the closest to him he can hardly be accused of anti-Semitism Jack.

            I think it’s just that Trump has no interest in mouthing liberal platitudes as required by the MSM, believes in doing stuff rather than rhetoric.

            For Christians to win the culture war in the,USA the Trump victory and it’s potential to appoint two or three right thinking Supreme Court judges could prove the most important consequence of his miraculous victory.

          • Dreadnaught

            Trump’s ‘telling it as it is’ is all well and good in reaching the broad spectrum of the blue collar American voter, but he is seemingly unable to deliver in any way that does not make America look anything other than inept at home or on the world stage.

          • 1642again

            He’s done more in his first week than any other President and hasn’t had all his Cabinet confirmed yet.

          • Dreadnaught

            Yes I agree, but therein lies his weakness, He’s making decisions so that he can claim to be delivering on his campaign trail that are seriously short on substance, detail, nuances, and unprepared consequences. In short his actions are not being thought through.

          • 1642again

            Of course you have access to his hundred day plan, his medium term strategy…. No? So how can you judge after a week? A good strategist plays their cards when the time is right, not when pressed by others.

          • Dreadnaught

            Take his no more Muslims strategy: yes I understand where he is coming from, but to omit identifying the root philosophy of the terrorism which is spelled out in the Koran, and not to apply the restriction on admitting people from Saudi Arabia the home of Wahabbism and Mecca, makes it a bit of a nonense. The inclusion of Iran the home of the Shia, and enemy of ISIS and Al-Qaida is more like a return to the Bush era that did nothing about the fact that 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and that the Bin-Laden family and friends were allowed to fly out the next day.

          • 1642again

            I entirely agree with your point, but he has to proceed in a reasoned way or will otherwise end up losing on Constitutional grounds at the outset. I hope he builds from there but do not expect him to do everything in a first term of office. The rot has run very deep and it’s the work of decades to out it right, but he is travelling in the right direction.

          • Dreadnaught

            He won’t get a second term. The next Administration has to take the initiative and use whatever progress in this direction he ends up with.

          • Inspector General

            Of particular interest is his promise to do something about the appalling drug problem in the inner cities. A situation that has spiralled out of control after years of lax law enforcement. One can imagine the National Guard sealing off entire blocks and starving the beasts out, or gunning down the recalcitrant. What a vote winner that would be…

      • CliveM

        Or perhaps all three.

      • dannybhoy

        Danny respectfully asks Jack and Carl, why are you wasting time duelling with someone(s) you both identify as ‘trolls’?
        Why not just warn us and refuse to engage?

        • Jack didn’t “duel”. He simply stated scripture without engaging is a disagreement.

          • dannybhoy

            These people want attention. They don’t care how it comes Jack.

    • Manfarang

      “He has had every pejorative thrown at him and the insults don’t work.”
      Your right. Bring on the lawsuits.

  • carl jacobs

    Num num. Pig intestine. What could be more appetizing.

    • Hah, wrong again, Carl.

      Sheep’s heart, liver and lungs, minced with onion, oatmeal, suet, spices, and salt, mixed with stock, and traditionally encased in the animal’s stomach. What’s not to like?

      • carl jacobs

        This is the story you tell gullible Americans, huh.

        • Haggis deep fried in batter is very tasty – followed by a deep fried Mars bar.

          • carl jacobs

            Do the English keep Scottish cuisine around just so English food looks good in comparison to something?

  • Dominic Stockford

    Faith, the hope of eternity found in Christ Jesus alone. Indeed that does echo across this slough of despond. So much brighter to hear of the son of David, the son of Abraham, and his saving work for us than of the world with all its troubles, and without any answers.

  • dannybhoy

    Went to boarding school in Suffolk, outside of Ipswich. Lovely countryside.

    • chefofsinners

      Any chance you could all Suffolk in silence?

    • David

      It’s beginning to feel like an East Anglian take-over of the website. Can’t be bad !

      • William Lewis

        If I may contribute to the East Anglian love in. Norfolk is lovely. My grandparents lived in North Norfolk so have been visiting the place man and boy. Nelson’s county!

        • David

          Feel free to join the other good yeomen and yeowomen (?) of East Anglia. Yes it’s Nelson’s County !

    • Sarky

      Royal hospital???

      • dannybhoy

        Indeed, and grateful to have been there in the years that it was still centred on the Royal Navy: something that King Alfred might have approved of.
        Drill… yes
        Punishments… aplenty.
        Bullying.. aplenty,
        Sports aplenty, and that good old secondary modern/technical/grammar educational system that has served our nation so well.
        I shall always remain grateful for the life lessons learnt at RHS, and sad that it has lost its military focus.

        • Sarky

          Bet you where a button boy !!

  • Royinsouthwest

    That is what they say about people from Devon! Are people from Suffolk plagiarists?

    • Sarky

      Probably! Too thick to make up our own!!

  • chefofsinners

    Rejoice, Mrs Proudie, for the good ship Mayflower has carried the Christian faith safely to the new world.
    Had she strayed south, to the land of the Maya, she might have been less welcome, so we must be grateful to the ladies of the anti-flatulence society for filling her sails, and effecting a change of atmosphere, as they are so won’t to do.
    This vicar’s daughter was last seen hand-in-hand with Jolly Don Trump, heading for the Ferret and Trousers on Fumble Street… a special relationship beckons.

  • Inspector General

    Dear @POTUS @realDonaldTrump,
    How is Jesus reflected in the barring of visitors, migrants and refugees by ethnicity or nationality?
    ++C

    Just as well the Inspector waited for the new US Ambassador to bed in before forwarding Cranmer’s name for recognition, if only for his timely warning about the unpleasantness of Hillary…

    • chefofsinners

      This decision by Trump is unfortunate but rational. If you can’t tell the difference between a venomous snake and a harmless one, you stop them all from entering your house.

      • Inspector General

        This business about refugees. Until recently, a refugee was someone who moved into a neighbouring country to wait until they could return home. Where did flying them halfway around the world come from! And also, the racial profile of these people would be the same, or much the same as the thugs who made them flee in the first place. So the country that takes them in are endangering their own people. To illustrate, the man who gunned down those 49 in Orlando was the son of Islamic immigrants. The poison came with the parents and was passed on to the offspring who was born in the USA…

        • Manfarang

          “Where did flying them halfway around the world come from! ” Technology.
          Before that ships were used. After WW2 the refugees from Shanghai were shipped out and they didn’t go “home”.

        • chefofsinners

          Christian compassion towards refugees is crucial. If our country and others were willing to grasp the practicalities of making pace in Syria then this problem could be solved. If we were willing to properly fund Turkey and Greece to look after them then the problem could be solved.

          • Inspector General

            It’s difficult to feel compassion for peoples whose own male relatives are responsible for their plight…

          • Manfarang

            So they are related to all the Russian, Iranian, and Lebanese fighters.

          • Inspector General

            Before those types arrived…

          • Who knows? The problem is that it is impossible to vet people from failed states which don’t keep or provide records.

          • Manfarang

            I did know a Syrian-American lady some years ago. She had been in the US military and was 100% American.

          • Some years ago people from Muslim countries who were accepted for immigration were vetted properly, with most from wealthy, secular, educated and Western-acculturated families.

          • Manfarang

            I did notice a Maronite church as I was riding the 501 Queens street car.

          • chefofsinners

            Yes, it is always difficult not to be selfish.

          • Inspector General

            One recalls the refugee boat where a group of muslims argued with a group of Christians. When the boat was apprehended, only the muslims were still on board…

          • carl jacobs

            What do you mean?

            If our country and others were willing to grasp the practicalities of making [peace] in Syria then this problem could be solved.

          • chefofsinners

            I mean that our interventions so-far have been disastrous. We ought to contemplate returning the Syrians to the position in which they originally found themselves: ruled by the oppressive Assad, but essentially secure and prosperous. Hold our noses and cooperate with Putin and Assad, and give up on this ridiculous proxy war in which we support the ‘rebels’ because they are somehow ‘democratic’.

          • A rationale for cooperating with tyrannical monsters is hard to defend ethically. We should no more engage in such than in supporting questionable groups. In the cases of Iraq, Lybia or Syria, it was merely a matter of time..usually a question of internal collapse due to the death or aging of the tyrants and of the fact that their lifeblood, oil (or agriculture and trade for Syria), can no longer support them. These are the death rattles of the last peasant societies.

          • carl jacobs

            What is breaking apart is the post-WWI settlement of the Middle East. What is occurring is a bloody de facto separation of populations into homogeneous groups. That’s what the US started in Iraq. It overthrew Sunni control, and established a Shi’a state. ISIS is the Sunni reaction to Sunni dispossession in Iraq. That whole process cascaded into Syria. And here we are today.

            What could have stopped the process? The Americans could have given control in Iraq to a compliant general and said “Don’t make problems for us.” Certainly more ethical than a quixotic quest to bring western democracy to a culture unable to sustain it.

          • Yes. I was going to mention the little problem of sectioning off the ME with a T-square, where sects and peoples were thrown together willy-nilly. The impulse is understandable, though; imbued with the success of the nation state and democracy, the West didn’t notice that these were the end-products of rapid industrialization and fabulous wealth. Make countries and make these countries accept the formalities of modern governments and all should be well, was the thought, and evidently, that’s not enough.

          • dannybhoy

            But Turkey is an Islamic state anyway, so why should the ‘Christian/Dhimmi’ nations pay to look after Muslim refugees?
            Greece is a European nation which is poor, and is not inviting ‘fugees in but rather is actually being invaded by them.
            Money should first of all be given to the Greeks to protect their borders; secondly control illegal landings and thirdly send them back to secure refugee camps near home…

          • Pubcrawler

            If we could persuade other Muslim countries (e.g. Saudi) to take a few, the problem would be solved.

          • Manfarang

            Malaysia and Indonesia have taken a few.

          • Manfarang

            Most of the refugees are in Lebanon and Jordan. Britain does fund Jordan.

          • chefofsinners

            The Western world would be better to fund Jordan and Lebanon more, and encourage mass migration less. Close borders and make Jordan a tolerable place to live. Meanwhile, as others have said, the brotherhood of Arab nations might also do a lot more.

          • Dominic Stockford

            The best charity shop in Teddington is ‘FARA’. They collect money from their selling of second hand stuff, then send it to Romanian to transform the lives of people there – rather than encouraging them to come here and transform our lives….

          • chefofsinners

            Anything to do with Farah? The Somalian refugee who wins golds for Britain but lives in the USA and is deeply troubled by Trump?
            Simple folk such as I who are born in a country, live there and pay our taxes there tend to lose track…

          • Dominic Stockford

            The idea that he lives in Teddington is another of those fables that foolish people believe.

          • Dreadnaught

            We are financially helping genuine Syrian refugees build camps closer to Syria and admitting some. What we are not doing is inviting a million randy muslim males con to us when they should be doing as the Yasidi girls are doing in fighting ISIS. They put them all to shame.

          • Dominic Stockford

            This is one thing that the British Government has managed to do.

          • Dreadnaught

            The missing word at the end is ‘right’.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Fair enough.

        • dannybhoy

          You’re right, O recently released from Purdah one!
          Only this morning Danny and wife heard prayers in which our Lord was described as a refugee, and ipso fatso, that’s why we must welcome them in by the leaky boat load…
          Nonsense!
          Help them by all means. Build well planned safe, secure and sanitised camps for them.
          But make sure they are sited and guarded near to home.
          (As near as possible to their home….)

          • Dominic Stockford

            Don’t go to a church that teaches such nonsense, and tell them why you’re not going.

      • Dominic Stockford

        And only to do so, as he has said, until they sort out a system by which they can spot those venomous individuals who seek to enter the hen house and eat the chicks.

  • NortyNina

    Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
    Matthew 9:12

    • “And thus I clothe my naked villainy
      With old odd ends, stolen forth of holy writ;
      And seem a saint when most I play the devil.”

      (Richard III; Act 1, Scene 3)

      • NortyNina

        And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.
        Matthew 10:22

        • “If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.”
          (1 John 1:6)

          • NortyNina

            You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
            Romans 2:1

          • “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” “

            “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly”
            (John 7:24).

            “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.”
            (Matthew 7:6)

            “Watch out for false prophets. . . . By their fruit you will recognize them.”
            (Matthew15–16)

            The Bible clearly teaches that truth is objective, eternal, and inseparable from God’s character. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie – but, of course, to call something a “lie” is to pass judgment. To call adultery or murder a sin is likewise to pass judgment – but it’s also to agree with God. When Jesus said not to judge others, He did not mean that no one can identify sin for what it is, based on God’s definition of sin.

            Believers are warned against judging others unfairly or unrighteously, but Jesus commends “right judgment” (John 7:24). We are to be discerning (Colossians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:21). We are to preach the whole counsel of God, including the Bible’s teaching on sin (Acts 20:27; 2 Timothy 4:2). We are to gently confront erring brothers or sisters in Christ (Galatians 6:1). We are to practice church discipline (Matthew 18:15–17). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).

            Why does the world hates the Jews? The apostle Paul tells us:
            “For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!” (Romans 9:3-5).
            The world hates the Jews because the world hates God. The Jews were God’s firstborn, His chosen people (Deuteronomy 14:2). Through the Jewish patriarchs, the prophets, and the temple, God used the Jews to bring forth His Word, the Law, and morality to a world of sin. He sent forth His son, Jesus the Christ, in a Jewish body to redeem the world of sin. Satan, the prince of the earth (John 14:30; Ephesians 2:2), has poisoned the minds of men with his hatred of the Jews.

          • 1642again

            Game, set and match Jack. Well done. Good to see your undoubted talents deployed against the professors of the dark.

      • IanCad

        Darn it Jack!
        I was saving up that quote to fire at the next person to accuse me of hypocrisy.

    • chefofsinners

      Praise the Lord, our sister Norty has seen the light! Never more shall a prejudiced word fall from her lips. Perhaps a change of name is in order, as with Saul.
      What shall it be? Warty Hyena?
      Norty Medina? Porky Piena?

  • Grouchy Jack

    Oi ….

  • IanCad

    A day late to press maybe; but well worth waiting for Ma’am.
    Delicious stuff with a smile in every line. A bit of a disservice though, to the magnificent zenith of femininity that was Lola Montez.

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Ah yes, dear Ian. His Grace moved my posting to Saturday because of Holocaust Memorial Day, something we should never forget. As for Lola, I think you’ll find I am the magnificent zenith you refer to… (“chuckles”)

  • len

    It might be worth remembering that satans stratagy is to draw Christians out of their covering in Christ into ‘the flesh’ (the natural man with natural responses) where on that ground satan rules supreme.
    Corrupted, fallen flesh is the ground that satan claims as his own and God has given it to him.

    ‘So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
    “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl
    on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.'(Genesis 3;14)

    The very dust than man was created from.

    In Christ the Christian is untouchable. Out of Christ ,fair game for satan.

  • Anton

    The Last Trump has let it be known that he does not wish to meet Prince Charles when he visits if he will be subjected to a lecture on climate change. With all respect to the Heir, I am with the Last Trump here.

    • 1642again

      Haven’t some physicists eviscerated the ‘science’ behind human contingent global warming?

      • Anton

        Yes, and I’ve summarised it on a few quite long posts at this blog. I’m reluctant to get involved with other blogs as they can all add up to quite a lot of time.

        • 1642again

          Think about it. Better do it on others which aren’t specifically Christian. Start with something destroying the theory of climate change.

          • Anton

            I’ve mixed it with a pro in the field at one science blog. I heartily recommend the secular blog

            http://www.joannenova.com.au

            as a well-informed climate-sceptical site.

    • dannybhoy

      Nonsense.
      Setting aside my measured support for Trump, I see Prince Charles as labouring under the same kind of values I was brought up in, and trying to be his own man. He has opinions, like any of us. He knows the expectations and obligations laid upon him because of an accident of birth.
      I say cut him some slack and think: how would you cope?

      • Anton

        Charles is honestly wrong on the issue. All I am saying is that I am not sorry Trump is saying “Don’t lecture me on the topic or I’ll walk out and you don’t want that, do you?” It is now up to Charles to decide how to respond.

        • dannybhoy

          Yes I think he is. As far as I understand it climate change has more to do with solar cycles in a system that is gradually running down than man’s progress and experimentation.
          But each one of us is also wrong in some way or other. Either we haven’t the brains to properly analyse it or we made a mistake in our calculations.
          (Science summed up in a sentence).
          I see Charles as a chap of average intelligence expected to
          a) Join the Sooty puppet club and obey the rules
          or b) Be a mensch and try and make sense of his birth and the world he was born into and act accordingly.
          I think that’s what he did.
          It’s kind of like ”Til Death do us part” with crowns…

          • Anton

            We’re not sure what are the main drivers of climate change, which has been going on for millennia before the industrial revolution. That is another reason why the IPCC is over-confident in its attribution of warming to manmade carbon dioxide.

          • carl jacobs

            The true impact of man-made CO2 is not important. What is important is the political use that can be made of convincing people that the impact of man-made CO2 is important.

          • 1642again

            Politicians love it because they can levy new taxes and feel virtuous at the same time.

          • dannybhoy

            So you agree?
            Man may exacerbate but nature deliberates.

          • Anton

            I’m not sure what proposition you are thinking I agree or disagree with! Let me say simply that the climate has never been stable and that the amount of carbon dioxide man has pumped out in the last 300 years does influence it but nothing like as much as the IPCC asserts or as has happened in the past.

          • dannybhoy

            I agree Anton. I have always believed that whilst man’s activity may exacerbate the effects of climate change, it is a natural phenomenon.

          • Dominic Stockford

            1 volcanoes eruption does more to affect climate in the few thousands of years the planet has existed, than anything man can do.

          • Coniston

            Actually volcanic eruptions normally produce large quantities of sulphur dioxide, which not only cause acid rain, but cools the atmosphere. If an eruption produces vast quantities of ash, this can lower global temperatures for a year or more – as in 1816.

          • Dominic Stockford

            As I said, whatever your view as to what they do (and the amount of heat they exhale is not insignificant) a single volcanoes eruption does more to affect the climate than man can do.

          • Solar cycles, Milankovich cycles or whatever mechanism drives long term climate changes, but the bottom line is that we’re at the beginning of the Holocene era, just “starting” to climb out of an ice age 11 thousand years ago. It’s bound to get much hotter, as in the geological history terms, we’ve been in an usually and anomalously cool cycle for a long time.

    • carl jacobs

      Climate change has nothing to with climate change of course. The message is “Your free choices are killing you. Submit yourselves to the technocratic elite and we will tell you how to live safely.” And of course it will start with high-density housing where people can be managed and controlled and taxed. And no cars. Cars breed mobility. Mobility made tax base a commodity.

      Climate change is about control.

      • Anton

        Yes it is, but the issue of population density is not the same in the huge USA and here in England. Here there really is a risk that the entire southeast of the country, and some fine countryside, will be concreted over within a generation. This is where the national economy is strongest, and the government, instead of doing nothing and letting rents rise so as to force innovation to move further out and help the economy there, thinks it can boost the national economy by making more housing available in the hotspot. It might be right, too, but this is the worst form of short-termism.

        • carl jacobs

          Right. So what you need is a Ministry of Housing Allocation and Distribution to determine where people live. Because you know … global warming. Intellectuals see individuals making free choices that compromise the collective good as defined by those intellectuals. So they seeks ways to command the outcome they desire. As people resist, more force must be applied.

          This is old Collectivism dressed in new clothes.

          • chefofsinners

            Do we not all “see individuals making free choices that compromise the collective good.” Surely this is the reason for society and the rule of law, God given or otherwise?

          • carl jacobs

            We are talking about decisions that are properly within the scope of a private individual’s authority. The classic example would be the Middle Class “deserting” the cities for the suburbs and thereby “shirking” its financial responsibility to the city. It’s not illegal or immoral to choose a place to live. But when people acquired the ability to make that choice, they did so overwhelmingly in a way that particular interest groups found destructive to a particular “collective vision”. Those interest groups want to recapture the power to dragoon people into the service of their agendas.

          • chefofsinners

            Yes, we must constantly defend our liberty against those who would take it for their own ends, but also constantly work together to achieve that which cannot be achieved alone and to avoid the destruction brought by anarchy.

      • The “climate change” term itself is a farce. Ask a believer and he’ll tell you that it’s cause, it’s driver, is man-made global warming. The problem they face is that even with all of the tomfoolery of suppressed data and temperature “adjustments,” there has been no signifcant warming which coincides with the spike of atmospheric CO2 increases for at least 15 years and all the scary predictions are a joke now.

        • carl jacobs

          Pffft! Data! We don’t need no data. What we need is legislation! We need a Climate Change Czar with the power to act! We need an $8 per gallon tax on gasoline and multi-family apartments. We need mass transit and the population density that makes it viable. We need vegetarian diets! We need swamp coolers and natural composting! And collective farms and a central price planning agency and …

          Oh! I wasn’t supposed to mention all those yet!

          • bluedog

            It’s called Agenda 21, Carl.

          • Agenda 21 is a beneficiary and a fellow traveler to warmism. The “sustainability” doctrine behind it predates the global warming scare. The latter is what can make Agenda 21 possible; a trans-national system of taxation and encumbrances on First World economies which would fund and enable such projects.

          • carl jacobs

            a trans-national system of taxation and encumbrances on First World economies which would fund and enable such projects.

            Which I assume would be enforced by unicorns because that is the only way this happens.

          • bluedog

            The genius of Agenda 21 is that it’s designed to be implemented at the third level of government, having been naively mandated by the first. Pure marxism, courtesy of the Frankfurt School.

          • Yes, but the fascists got entranced by it too; the Futurists. Interestingly, a novel by Jules Verne, Paris in the 20th Century predicts the dense super-city…and its downfall. Worth finding the book; it’s so “modern,” it will give you the chills.

          • bluedog

            Thanks Avi. I’ll try to kindle it.

          • But it worked! While principled and polite critics concentrated on the science counter-argument, the warmistas pumped the ideology in schools, co-opted the environmental movement, got industrialists and the elite on the wagon, drew up legislation, hired “climatologists” and made it into an undeniable “fact” in popular culture.

          • carl jacobs

            It “worked” in the same way R2P “worked”. People pay lip service to the concept. But I haven’t seen anyone push a program that would really bite into the economy or try to force a significant change in lifestyle.

          • Cressida de Nova

            OK let us talk about pollution. No one can deny that our water ways and the sea are heavily polluted because of our selfish consumerist wasteful society rather than recycling,using and having less, and disposing of our waste with care.Humans are generating far too much waste product. Land fills have a finite date.

            We are soft and pampered and use more energy than ever before.Coal fired energy is pollutive and ruinous to respiratory health along with all the other negative effects of mining to the environment.The world cannot sustain this situation indefinitely.You don’t have to be a Green to understand this fundamental problem

          • CliveM

            Agreed Cressida.

          • bluedog

            One of the measures of social development postulated by the academic Ian Morris is energy consumption. Highly developed societies with a high standard of living are energy intensive societies.The debate you may be looking for is the one in which coal is replaced by other energy sources including, hopefully, nuclear.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Nuclear is clean but the results when things go wrong are terrifying.Is it worth the risk?Best find a solution that is clean and safe.

          • bluedog

            Clean and safe are worthy objectives. The problem is that renewables offer intermittent power that is economically viable only with taxpayer subsidies. Coal remains by far the cheapest source of power and its use has raised the living standards of billions. We know the disadvantage of coal and nuclear is currently the only rival for base load power. There are no easy answers.

  • Inspector General

    Climate change: Another perspective.

    The Inspector is reliably informed that within a few short decades, and probably within his lifetime, the population of this suffering planet will exceed an astonishing 10 billion. That’s half as much again as the immediate. All of the increase in nuisance hard luck countries with unpleasant populations. Now, if climate change can stop that, bring it on, and bloody quick at that. Embrace climate change, it is our friend…

    • carl jacobs

      Your problem isn’t population growth in Bangladesh. It’s population decline in Europe.

      • Dreadnaught

        Not on its own. Igrorance of Islam is the major and more immediate problem.

      • Neither is population decline the chief problem. It’s economies based on labour intensive industries. A growing population hooked on economic growth which is based on people-intensive manufacturing or serving sectors becomes a liability when automation begins to replace traditional work. Think driverless trucks and cars, automated hydroponic farms, robotics, AI capable of taking on routine work in law and medicine, etc.

        • carl jacobs

          Yeah, yeah. And Software Engineers were supposed to have gone the way of telegraph operators by now. And Fukuyama predicted the end of history. And if only we could make replicators, then we could build our Star Trek vision of the world. I suspect there might be a few unanticipated problems on your road to a people-less economy. But in any case, it isn’t going to emerge anywhere near fast enough to save Europe. By the middle of the decade you will have failed states on the periphery of Western Europe – brought about by gov’ts enthralled to a fearful aging population plus an economy no longer capable of producing the surplus necessary fund the benefits that aging population will demand. Let’s spell that “Portugal”.

          The crisis in Europe is demographic and is driven by a fear of demographic replacement. That isn’t going to go away unless Europeans decide to start having kids in large numbers. Do you see that happening? Because I don’t.

          • Fine. Add to that flying cars by the turn of this century, and now-comical projection fails like CRT monitors in the flying cars in Blade Runner (sequel coming up in November!!!). The bottom line is that telegraph operators are gone, as well as typists, horse carriages and their vast dependent industries and so on. As for replicators, not an impossibility, but much is happening on the edges; a friend works in an Israeli lab which is working on “growing” synthetically real meat, texture and fat streaks included, and a British lab recently came up with a spoon which can imbue any flavour to a dull food with programmed currents to trigger taste buds.

            And you may be right that the race may be lost for Europe, but there is only one brake to development and fabulous wealth nowadays (as always); lack of cheap and virtually unlimited energy. That’s the secret to Star Trek’s marvels everyone seems to miss, that behind all of the distracting gewgaws is a presumption of stupendous amounts of easily harnessed, nearly free energy.

          • Avi, why do you think humans exist? Your post got me thinking when you mentioned synthetically grown real meat. Could we in the future exist on a pill 3 x daily like they used to portray in the old science fiction films of the past?

          • Hi Marie. A pill form or other even weirder ways would not be impossible, probably, as long as we can accommodate the known and still unknown needs of our digestive tract and related systems. One advantage i can think of in highly synthesized or manipulated foods is being able to finally counter evolution’s age-old survival directive to store every calorie of energy in the form of fat. The synthetic meat, though, is fairly conventional in that what is changed is that it’s grown with cultures from animal meat.

            As to why humans exist, I take my answers from the Torah on that one. If the question relates to changes in the future, though, as in how technology will affect our nature and perceived purpose, well, there is much to hope for and probably more to fear!

  • dannybhoy

    “..and before the day was out the stonework was as good as new and the gargoyles had smiles on their faces. When they said their ‘Adios’ and strode into the sunset, one could not help feeling a little Zorro…”

    “Of course, Mrs. Dismay has other worries, some involving missiles that go astray. Plenty of that sort of thing went on at Balaclava when Miss Nightingale’s gentle hands brought relief to wounded soldiers.”
    -Shocking!
    “Until next week, may the tweeting of Faith echo across the slough of despond, and the darling buds of May remain a mystery to us all.”

    My apologies Madame, but I did not give your literary newsletter the attention it rightly deserved..
    Danny finds that his attention is much more diffused these days. The work that you must put into polishing these weekly literary offerings does not go unnoticed, and I have to say that this has been a veritable cornucopia of chortles. Danny is not by nature a jealous man, but he envies your ability to write in such an amusing way.

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Double hobnobs and lashings of Earl Grey for, my lad!

  • Dreadnaught

    Is the penny about to drop for Christians? I truly hope so. The OIC knows Europe is ripe for the picking and is actively encouraging migration while EU equality and hate-speech laws pave the way.

    Everyone in Italy and the rest of Europe will “soon be Muslim” because of our “stupidity”, warned Monsignor Carlo Liberati, Archbishop Emeritus of Pompei. Liberati claimed that, thanks to the huge number of Muslim migrants alongside the increasing secularism of native Europeans, Islam will soon become the main religion of Europe. “All of this moral and religious decadence favours Islam”, Archbishop Liberati explained.
    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9835/church-strengthening-islam;

    • dannybhoy

      The OIC ?

      • Organization of Islamic cooperation. Formerly Organisation of the Islamic Conference, with about 60 member countries.

        • dannybhoy

          Never heard of it, but anyway they are right. Europe has rejected – or rather ignored the influence of Christianity in building their civilisation.
          They wanted to believe that man could improve himself through science and reason, and here we are. A bunch of countries worshipping at the shrine of consumerism, abortion, sexual self expression, tv soaps, drink and football…
          Of course they’re ripe for the picking..

          • Science and reason alone are not at fault; they are measurable benefits. They offer real solutions to real problems with things like technology and better systems and processes. The problem is in the demands they place on individuals and societies and the fact that religion has not been able to come up with a strategy to keep up with the changes other than by conceding ground and diluting itself into irrelevance, or doubling-down on traditionalism, which only works for a small minority. This is not a criticism; it’s an acknowledgement of a very difficult problem.

          • Sarky

            Spot on Avi.

          • chefofsinners

            Religious conservatives have not doubled down on traditionalism. It just looks that way because atheists and agnostics have moved so far so quickly.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Christian conservatives still believe in Creation and the Creator, along with His direction as the best way for our life. It isn’t doubling down, its simply continuing in the faith.

          • Conservatives of other religions, I include myself in this category, continue to hold to this. But this is not what makes the difference; many believe that, but conduct their lives just as those who don’t. The difference is in the ability to continue or form and sustain viable cultures through customs, rituals, rules and behaviours…precisely the things today’s religion turns its nose at as too shallow or too materialistic.

          • Dominic Stockford

            There would be found the difference between Biblical Christianity and Judaism – we would say that ritual is nothing to do with worship of God. And as Paul says in his words to the Philippian Christians, we live as we do in response to what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. That response, visible in action and in word, is what leads us to live lives giving Glory to God.

          • Without getting into the theology behind the authenticity and value of the theoligies of Judaism and Christianity, I’ll just say that the anthropological value of religious behaviour is evident and undeniable when you look at which societies are more religious. Peoples who form communities which observe ritual and custom succeed not only in maintaining themselves materially better than others, but in perpetuating faith, quantitatively and and qualitatively. The other part you are missing is that the Christianity you look back at and probably hope for, was supported by a firm base of cultural values and rituals, which were rarely commented on because it was simple the way things were done. Getting rid of these was a bad idea, evidently. I will remark, though, that the assumption that Judaism is less faith-based or “spiritual” than Christianity, is totally wrong.

          • dannybhoy

            I agree. The history of Judaism is built on acts of faith, and I would go further to say that the prayers of a devout Jew are also heard and answered according to God’s commitment to His Covenant people; which in the Nevi’im leads ultimately to the new Covenant as described in Jeremiah 31>
            “31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

          • 1642again

            I have to say Avi that I find myself in almost complete agreement with your analysis.

          • Thanks. I can cope with that!

          • Your attitude is refreshing, Danny. Nice try, my friend, but Leviticus and Genesis are quite clear that the original covenant, the one still in force between God and Israel, is to be eternal. Jeremiah, a navi/prophet cannot mean a replacement of an “old” covenant” with a “new” one. He speaks allegorically of a revitalization of the same covenant. For us, the prophets and prophesies do not replace the Torah, but are meant to reinforce its clear statements. This renewal is to be in a future messianic age, with a restored Jewish nation, on its own land and from an authentic Jewish position, this certainly did not happen 2000 years ago by any interpretive stretch.

          • dannybhoy

            Harrrumph..
            I of course have heard this interpretation before with the Messiah as an individual replaced by a Messianic people. It does go against the earlier rabbinical understanding of Messiah, and on a human level it would run contrary to the historical relationship between the the people and their God, especially when it comes to walking in obedience to Torah, and how in this vision of a Messianic people a Jew might for example subscribe to other faiths and philosophies and yet remain a devout son of Abraham…
            whereas Jeremiah clearly says..
            not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord…

            So we might explore many aspects of the prophecy and what it would actually mean that God would put His law in them: even more interesting to examine more closely how this Messianic age might come about, what are the other prophecies that point to it, how it would function etc. etc.
            Danny is always interested in such things and ready to learn how another reached the opinions he or she currently holds….. :0)
            God bless you, son of Israel.

          • Ha! How I reach the opinions on such matters is very simple, Danny ole’ boy: I defer to the opinions and instructions of my current rabbis, mainstream and centrist Orthodoxy, past scholars, our national Sages and of course our Oral Torah recorded in the Talmud. This is the brick wall or the stiff neck which many proselytizing religions trying to entice Jews come up against, again and again; the collective unity of authentic Israel and the dogged loyalty of even the theologically poor dummies as myself.

          • It’s frustrated many Christians down the ages who believe Christ will not return until The Jewish people are converted. But God works out His plan in His own way, despite the efforts of some to try to force His hand.

            As Pope Francis said recently, the Church does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by “attraction“ – just as Christ “draws all to himself” by the power of his love, culminating in the sacrifice of the Cross, so the Church fulfils her mission to the extent that, in union with Christ, she accomplishes every one of her works in spiritual and practical imitation of the love of her Lord, thereby attracting people to Christ.

            The term proselytism originated in the context of Judaism, in which the term proselyte referred to someone who, coming from the gentiles, had passed into the Chosen People. So too, in the Christian context, the term proselytism was often used as a synonym for missionary activity. More recently, however, the term has taken on a negative connotation, to mean the promotion of a religion by using means, and for motives, contrary to the spirit of the Gospel; that is, which do not safeguard the freedom and dignity of the human person.

            (CDF 2007)

            The terms evangelise and witness are preferred. Proselytism is seen today by the Church as an abuse of religious freedom, it is a means of teaching the faith that denies the free use of reason and appeal to conscience,

          • I have no issue with such a policy and I don’t even object to courteous Evanelical attempts at missionising between adults in a free society and under equal circumstances. After all, if I don’t wish to be engaged in a religious discussion, I can always withdraw from it.

          • dannybhoy

            Avi, bear in mind that I value friendship as a prerequisite for serious discussion/argument. Friendship is when somehow you knit with another person, even though your temperaments and opinions clash. So I offer these points to you to reflect in private, because whatever the outcome I like to think we stay friends respectful of each other’s opinions even if we cannot agree..
            So if you believe that “that the original covenant, the one still in force between God and Israel, is to be eternal.”
            (which in a sense I agree with because the Holy One has as a faithful husband committed Himself to the Jewish people), was Jeremiah mistaken or was his prophecy simply obscure?

            In this interpretation of ‘Mashiach’ as a “future, purified, repentant people, rather than a person” it would appear that there will be a restoration of the system of sacrifices, led by the Cohenim and assisted by the Levites. As practiced in the tent temple and then in Solomon’s temple.
            My question is ‘Why?’

            According to my Jewish sources..

            “And when the Messiah comes, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt, and once again we will bring sacrifices on the Holy Altar there, as it says “And the sacrificial offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to Hashem, like in the olden days years ago” (Malachi 3:4).
            It is still forbidden to bring sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. We follow, today, the instructions taught us by King Solomon, the Prophet Hosea and the other Prophets, and we pray without bringing sacrifices.
            In addition, when we wish to bring a sacrifice, we study the Laws of the particular sacrifice we wish to bring.
            So the short answer to your question is that we can no longer bring Sacrifices because the Torah forbids us to bring any Sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. Since we have no Holy Temple, and it is impossible for us to rebuild it at this time, we keep praying to Hashem that we should be able to rebuild it soon in peace, and once again be able to bring the Praise and Thanksgiving Sacrifices once again.”
            http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/sacrifices.html

            2)
            “There are three basic concepts underlying Karbanot. The first the aspect of giving. A korban requires the renunciation of something that belongs to the person making the offering. Thus, sacrifices are made from domestic animals, not wild animals (because wild animals do not belong to anyone). Likewise, offerings of food are ordinarily in the form of flour or meal, which requires substantial work to prepare.

            Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense “punished” in place of the offerer. It is interesting to note that whenever the subject of Karbanot is addressed in the Torah, the name of G-d used is the four-letter name indicating G-d’s mercy.

            The third important concept is the idea coming closer. The essence of sacrifice is to bring a person closer to G-d.”
            http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/sacrifices-and-offerings-karbanot

            3) “During the messianic era, the Messiah will reign victorious and rebuild the Temple. He will restore the priesthood to the Temple, and the traditional sacrifices will be reinstated. The return to the golden age of the Jewish people will be complete. Many popular Jewish prayers express this messianic longing for the rebuilding of the Temple and above all for the return to Zion. Perhaps even more than the coming of the Messiah, traditional Judaism has sought this dream of the return to Zion.

            The Jewish people will be complete. Many popular Jewish prayers express this messianic longing for the rebuilding of the Temple and above all for the return to Zion. Perhaps even more than the coming of the Messiah, traditional Judaism has sought this dream of the return to Zion.

            http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-messianic-age-in-judaism/

            4) My last source says,
            “…”Prophecy” takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed — it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man’s endeavor to commune with G‑d) defines “life” as connection with G‑d. Sin–man’s turning away from G‑d–is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.

            Torah agrees that sin is a harmful deed. It also agrees that it’s a disruption of the flow of life from Creator to creation. Indeed, Torah is the source of both Wisdom’s perspective and Prophesy’s perspective on sin. But Torah also goes beyond them both in recognizing that the soul of man would never willingly and consciously do such a stupid thing.

            Sin, says Torah, is an act of folly.
            ( I have a problem with this last statement in that I cannot call what Hitler and his henchmen planned for the Jewish people could in any way be interpreted as ‘folly’..
            But there you have it Avi son of Israel.
            If in a future Messianic age with Israel restored to the glory God had always intended for it: the temple rebuilt, the sacrificial offerings for sin, guilt, peace and worship offerings re-instituted, people will not have radically changed.
            So when Jeremiah says,
            “..But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord’, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
            This is a less preferable Covenant to bringing back animal sacrifices and offerings? We Christians believe salvation is of the Jews, and that Yeshua lived a perfect life in accordance with the Torah, and offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for the problem of sin.

          • Surely you know me better than to think that I’ve been put out by anything you’ve said, Danny! We’re good, bro!

            Alas, I’m set in my stiff-necked ways and besides, I’ve most definitely crossed the line by discussing theology with anyone but the rabbis I hold by and my study group. A good rule, this; once it kept us from getting into trouble with the authorities, nowadays it keeps lazy dunces like me from getting mixed-up and being swept off the derekh by sweet-talking fellows like yourself, the kind who know their scriptures (and mine!) better than I.

            I follow the older, more rationalistic and down to earth teachings on the laws of the Messiah by the Rambam, specifically in the 11th chapter of his Mishnah Torah. Which, I’m sure a fellow like you, who’s spent more time in Israel than I and knows better Hebrew than I, surely knows about 🙂

            It is the great Rambam’s minimalist approach which discourages speculation about a subject that is only hinted at in the written Torah, and which keeps me not only safe from any Christian interpretations, but can also upset the majority of the Hareidi Orthodox, who’ve embellished the messianic idea with way too much mysticism that appears to be borrowed from outside.

          • dannybhoy

            I was unkind Avi, and would like to apologise for putting you on the spot.
            The reason I assembled those clips was because there are different views on what Mashiach and the Messianic Age will mean.
            Although as you know we accept your Scriptures as the word of God, we do like you end up with different conclusions.
            I have met a few Jews who had actually accepted that Jesus is the Messiah -even some rabbis (although I haven’t met them!) – and they continue going to schul and celebrating the hagim. I think that’s the right way to go. (It fits in with the idea outlined in Jeremiah’s prophecy of the Law being written on the heart :0).

            Back in ’70 there was very little talk about the Hareidi, most Israelis referred instead to the ‘datiim’, the religious people. I think I mentioned once that in Tiberias I heard music and clapping coming from a building and went to investigate. These datiim were celebrating something or other and dragged me into their dancing. A wonderful and moving experience.
            Last time I was there in 2009 I was amazed by how many Hareidi there were.
            You should try and go Avi, it’s also your country and I think you would enjoy the experience. Although do it on the cheap -some of these tours are ridiculously expensive…

          • You didn’t put me on the spot, Danny, don’t worry! The discomfort is not about the topic per se, but my possible Rabbinic violation of debating theological subjects with a non-Jew. I’m not at all confused about the meaning of messianism in Judaism; Judaism is by definition messianic, as the belief in the Jewish Messiah, the King Messiah, is a core requirement established by Maimonides’ (the Rambam) 13 principles of Jewish belief. So, I personally judge past, present and any future messianic claimants …and there have been many in the past and one or two in our times… according to Rambam’s plain-meaning definitions. Those fairly simple and unambiguous standards have so far excluded every “candidate,” not just Jesus, but also others like the heroic Bar Kochva (temporarily proposed by the admirable Sage, Rabbi Akiva), and not to mention deluded lunatics like Jacob Frank and Shabtai Zvi, who confused a great number of Jews. There have been around twenty or so false Jewish messiahs who emerged from within the community, all of them wreaking major havoc, so I actually worry less about Christian missionary attempts, like the Evangelical project, “Jews for Jesus,” and more about possible future messianic claimants emerging from the core of mainstream Orthodoxy.

            Still, for the benefit of any wandering Yid who may chance upon our discussion here, I must re-state the fact that it is impossible for a Jew to become a Christian and to remain a full, authentic Jew. A Jew who adopts even aspects of another religion, not to mention a core claim, is a sinful heretic and becomes cut off from Israel (the people) and God until a such time when he repents and his repentance is formally accepted by a Jewish religious court. His apparent observances of Jewish laws and traditions are invalid, being mere mockeries or sinful subterfuge if used to fool or entice other Jews. He cannot be called to bless the Torah and he can certainly not be considered as a rabbi. This is not a judgement on mainstream Christianity, which is a bona fide religion in our days, when recent changes in Christian and Jewish attitudes have made friendly coexistence and mutual respect possible. Personally, I would never invite a “Christian Jew” or speak to him about anything other than to urge him to contact a genuine Orthodox rabbi (e.g., through the international “Jews for Judaism” organization) to discuss ways in which he can return to his authentic, God-given nature and mission.

            Yes, Hareidi communities have grown in Israel, as in the Diaspora. But the Dati Leumi community, Religious Zionism (my thing), is doing well and will probably prevail as, in my opinion, it is more authentic, self-sustaining and functionally prepared to take on today’s and future challenges.

          • dannybhoy

            I shall have to digest this more thoroughly Avi and get back to you!

          • Beer, have a lots of beer, it helps! Wish I had…all out 🙁

          • dannybhoy

            Beer gives you a big belly Avi. Not good for truck drivers…

          • True, but the Volvo 780 has a tilting steering wheel just for that: http://www.moibbk.com/images/volvo-780-interior.jpg

          • dannybhoy

            Are Volvo highly rated in Canada? I thought the Peterbilt and White trucks have good ir better reputations.

          • Biggest engine, reliability, nice ergonomics, good visibility, well-appointed standard sleeper, smooth gearing, lighter clutch (especially for double-clutching in traffic!).

          • dannybhoy

            Hm, is that what you drive?

          • Yes, but not as much. A lot of straight-body Internationals with air brakes, but more and more design, tech writing and illustration. Will continue driving til they tell me I can’t, because I’ll go nuts being stuck behind a desk all the time. I wind up posting a lot here, when that happens!

          • “This renewal is to be in a future messianic age, with a restored Jewish nation, on its own land and from an authentic Jewish position, this certainly did not happen 2000 years ago by any interpretive stretch.”
            Catholics would argue that the Mosaic Covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, and that His life, death and resurrection ushered in a spiritual Messianic age, His Kingdom not being of this world, until He returns in Glory.

          • Well, Jack, gall of goat and slips of yew,
            If you believed what I believe,
            You’d be a Jew!

          • But Jack is a Jew, Avi. As are all Christians – well, at least the Catholic ones amongst us. You’re just lagging behind a bit.

          • Not anymore, though, Jack. Not according to the Jewish people who lived and died under a name that not too long ago was a curse word. The early Church removed the requirement of conversion, circumcision, the observance of the Jewish calendar and dietary laws, and took on a theological path that is incompatible classical and modern Judaism. Now, far be it from me to try and dissuade you, just as I wouldn’t argue with a gender dysphoric person who self-identifies as a member of the opposite sex, but I too have a right to my own criteria and reality.

          • You’ve missed Jack’s point, Avi. He is not talking about Judaism today. Christians are now the descendants of Abraham in faith. The Mosaic Law no longer applies.

          • Or perhaps Jack did not clarify it. As I said, I have no authority or desire to challenge others’ self-definitions until they begin to affect me. Miss Cressida correctly pointed out that Christianity involves a rejection of Judaism. I find her statement to be more factual and significant than your claim of Jewishness based on an assumed descent from Abraham “in faith.” Islam, I suppose can or maybe does make a similar claim, with the addition that it asserts a familial affiliation through the line of Ishmael. What exactly do you think my response to such claims should be?

          • Jack is just stating his understanding of scripture as taught by St Paul and the Church. We read and interpret the books of the Old Testament differently.

          • Well, Jack, that’s the whole point. We have different scriptures and different interpretations of the ones we share. In practical terms, Christianity cannot accept today’s Judaism as authentic and Judaism today, as in the past, cannot accept Christian claims to the mantle of Judaism as authentic either. Even Nortie gets the reality of this unbridgeable gulf in her befuddled neo-Nazi borsht of a theology.

          • It is the whole point, Avi. And we have to live with our differences, with respect and without hatred.

            At least Jack achieved agreement between you, Nora and Cressida. Some achievement!!

          • Living with differences is another subject, Jack. But I don’t need to share a past to do this, as I can easily respect Buddhist and Hindus as people, cultures and religions. The very limited agreement with a datum point in Nortie’s unique theology is hardly a great achievement I’d crow about, though.

          • Cressida de Nova

            You might not be seeing him for some time.

            I have already been accused of being a neo nazi by Jack’s latest friend,the pyscho protestant brewery worker new to the site . I just dismissed it as a label he hurls at outspoken females.

            As for Jack…Catholic women don’t do doggie house. Hiding,making novenas,calling on the litany of saints, wearing sack cloth and ashes outside the Church… will make no difference !

          • I hope you didn’t hurt Jack too badly. I’ve grown somewhat fond of him. In spite of myself.

          • Cressida de Nova

            He likes it ! I will pass on your message of your new found affection for him. Expect lots of flowery poems now from him. You have brought this on yourself.

          • 1642again

            Correct Jack.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Erm…not quite right there Jack.
            Jesus moved in another direction, with new concepts and a new way of looking at and living a life.Catholicism is an extension but at the same time a rejection of much of Judaism.

          • Of course, but Christians are the descendants of Abraham in faith living, one with Christ under the New Covenant.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Jews are not one with Christ. They did not move on as followers of Jesus. Catholic/Christians have Jewish antecedents but evolved with the New Covenant into a different entity, a different culture.

            Protestant/Christians have Catholic/Christians as their antecedents but a lot of the cults have evolved into something unrecognisably remote from Catholicism as well

          • NortyNina

            The Hebrew faith radically changed after the destruction of the second Temple in AD70 and the annihilation of most of the ‘Jews’ and Priest class by the Romans. What remained of the non-Christian Hebrew faith evolved into Rabbinic Judaism with the Oral Law written down and the talmud, c 600AD, a different faith from that of Jesus’ time.

          • That’s a different topic altogether.

          • NortyNina

            The point being that what we mean by a Jew today is different from the word Jew as used in the Bible. Like the word ‘gay’ has been changed to mean a homosexual, as an example.
            Thus, Jesus was not a ‘Jew’ in the modern sense.
            The Jews are not ‘the Jews’.

          • Jesus, of course, had a natural Jewish mother and was thus a Jew both by birth and religion. Both Christianity and Judaism today are “different” than they were in the time of Christ. Jack is not an authority on modern Judaism. Are you?

          • NortyNina

            How can I put it so that even you can understand what I mean?

            The people who call themselves Jews today have appropriated an earlier peoples religion and culture.

          • Cressida de Nova

            How was Judaism essentially different in the time of Jesus?A before and after sketch.

          • It is Jack’s understanding that Christ fulfilled and perfected Judaism and taught what matters is faith in Him – not the previous distinctions between Jew and Gentile. As for the differences between Catholicism and other Christian churches, that, as they say, is a whole other topic.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Perfected Judaism means that there were aspects of Judaism which were less than perfect and had need of changing..I am not denying our historic link and familial connection to Judaism.

            In the same way Protestants cannot deny the historical and familial connection to Catholicism which like it or not was there first for a long time and is the original and true expression of Christianity founded by Jesus the Jew/son of God. Thus Protestantism in rejecting Catholicism , Christ’s true religion,could be seen as a rejection of Christ himself

            A Christian (a follower of Jesus) in theory can never be antisemitic because Jesus the son of God was a Jew.You cannot be antisemitic and call yourself a Christian. It is a perverted concept.

          • bluedog

            ‘Thus Protestantism in rejecting Catholicism , Christ’s true religion,could be seen as a rejection of Christ himself.’ Let’s say ‘could’, but obviously isn’t, a rejection of Christ, Cressida. Fake News!

          • Cressida de Nova

            Look at it this way…Henry viii a promiscuous murderer and anti semitic Luther were both very flawed and disfunctional Catholics. Why on earth would you follow a religion invented by one of those two misfits when you could follow the religion of Jesus. It makes no sense at all.

          • bluedog

            So why didn’t Henry’s Catholicism prevent him from being a promiscuous murderer? Ditto Luther’ anti-Semitism, after all, he was a Catholic priest. Swimming the Tiber seems to come with the risks of being transformed into an anti-semitic and promiscuous murderer. Don’t want to go there.

          • NortyNina

            I can assure you I haven’t descended from a Turkic tribe.

          • Read your scripture.

          • NortyNina

            Why? Does that make me a Turk?

          • you are a Christian, i.e. one with Christ, then you are a descendant of Abraham. It’s not about genetics and DNA.

            Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal.”

          • NortyNina

            In Christianity, ‘Jew’ is an obsolete concept.
            “Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
            Col 3: 11

            Do the Jews or zionist Jews accept this?
            No!
            They utterly reject Christ.

          • Different context; different point.

          • carl jacobs

            customs, rituals, rules and behaviours [sic]

            That is all liberal religion is. And it cannot hold its adherents. Viable culture is breaking down not for lack of rules and rituals. Viable culture in the west is breaking down because the idea of a governing capital-T Truth has broken down and we are left with nothing but human autonomy. That’s at least manageable in the short term so long as there is money to sustain autonomy. But then all you are saying is that being rich gives one the illusion of being independent of God. Money allows one to purchase the luxury of atheism. It’s not an accident that Gene Roddenberry’s atheistic vision was one of perpetual wealth. That was the necessary enabling condition. But the wealth amassed by the West depended upon certain cultural preconditions that are being eviscerated with each passing month. This libertine society we have created is not compatible with long-term prosperity.

            It’s therefore a self-correcting problem. The West will soon no longer be rich. It will soon no longer dominate the world. Then all these questions of meaning and purpose are going to return with a vengeance. Who knows how they will be answered.

          • That is not what liberal religion is. There are no rituals in it with assumed intrinsic values; just ideologies, most of which are hostile to rituals and customs. I’ll even argue that Western liberalism…a pretty unique historical entity… is the unfortunate outcome of centuries of Christian over-the-top propaganda against Judaism, where at the height of the conflict, Christianity chose to differentiate itself by over-stressing faith and wrongly describing its opponent as blinded by stultifying ritual and laws…”works.”

            And yes, wealth can lead to independence from God because it frees the individual from the societal restraints, benefits and obligations a religious community took centuries to build. Religion is not in the mind alone. But you have hit the proverbial nail in the head; the wealth generation was made possible, in part, by the religious culture and paradoxically, this wealth is now destroying it. In this case. But I hope that you’re not betting on economic and political decline to bring back meaning and purpose; we’re not in a film we can simply reverse and return “home” again.

          • carl jacobs

            The essence of liberal Christianity has always been to rescue the morality from the metaphysics. In truth, ritual is all the liberal religion has to give it substance. The temporal morals of Christianity don’t require an organization like a church. Listen to Episcopalians talk about Baptism and Communion someday.

            But I hope that you’re not betting on economic and political decline to bring back meaning and purpose;

            I am betting that economic and political decline will bring about a resurgence of paganism – a resurgence that will be driven by the immediate need to confront questions of meaning and purpose in the face of poverty, violence, and suffering. It will be false meaning and false purpose, but people will be satisfied with lies if only they can have hope.

          • I think you ascribe too much to liberal Christianity, or liberal Judaism for that matter…which is a philosophical off-shoot of liberal Christianity in many ways. It’s essence, I think it obvious; a combination of indifference and convenience.

            I already agree that organized churches or synagogues are not essential, but maintain that strong, connected and involved religious communities are, under whatever practical form of organization works.

            I do agree agree with you, though, that we’re heading to a “default” state of Paganism, a “post-Classical” version of such. The turbulent marches and protests, the “theology” the media and academia have built and the unsupported truisms governments rely on are a sign of that.

          • bluedog

            You may be too pessimistic, and not in an economic sense, but spiritually. Just as Muslims famously self-radicalism over the internet and become jihadis, there seems no reason why Western youth does not do the same in terms of Christian belief. It may yet happen. As Protestants we think in terms of self-discovery of faith, and if the internet does not enable that, it’s hard to know what does. The problem for the established churches is that their legacy positions in stone, bricks and mortar make it very hard for them to adapt to the new medium of preaching. When the bums are on seats at home in front of the laptop, the established churches face a problem with inertia.

          • “There are no rituals in it with assumed intrinsic values.”
            Spot on. Carl, being a Calvinist, dismisses ritual forgetting that our rituals reflect and reinforce our faith. Jews, Orthodox Christians and Catholics understand this. Most Protestants do not, believing only in the spoken and written word. They forget God can reach man through the other senses.

          • Orange vs. Green argument alert! I don’t want to stick my head into that buzz-saw. The thing is, that post-Exilic Judaism influenced and was heavily influenced, by both. This debate is unavoidable in any religion, but quickly becomes dysfunctional, harming both sides, when it’s turned into a zero-sum, black and white, battle. If anything needs to be institutionalized, believed in with faith and even ritualized, it’s an approach which accepts certain amount of variation for the good of the whole.

          • carl jacobs

            Have no fear. Orange always wins.

          • O, dear.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            I have read something to the effect that Flannery O’Connor, possibly on
            being asked why she wrote so favourably of some Protestant characters in
            her stories, says she did not want to drag us all back to the quarrels
            of the 16th and 17th Centuries.

          • A non-issue in Canada (for at least a century), but an issue in the UK, as I was surprised to find when I chanced on this blog a few years back!

          • chefofsinners

            Surely Carl is referring to the hollowing out of ritual, leaving a form without meaning. This describes our culture very well.
            For the faithful, rituals have great value, but without faith they are nothing. “These people serve me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.”

          • Agreed.

          • PS: yes, sic errat scriptum; behaviour vs behavior, colour vs color, licence vs license, grey vs gray, honour vs honor, etc. The marks and signs of civilized English!

          • carl jacobs

            I do try and help you from time to time. Civilization is just across Lake Ontario. It’s not too late for you.

          • Uh-huh. Nice try this, to get me to plunge into that cold, polluted cesspool with drunk Americans in super-powered speedboats ripping around. Cracked a vertebra back in 2000 by slamming into a wave with a jet boat while trying to cross from the Toronto Harbour to Mississauga, just a few miles away.

          • carl jacobs

            You can drive around the lake, Avi.

          • And deal with the lineup at customs?

          • carl jacobs

            A small price to pay for reaching civilization. And anyways …

            You drive a truck! You do that like every day!

          • Used to, and now I drive mostly local and northern Ontario routes. You should see how your Rainbow Bridge customs people and their dogs practically take apart my immature, mid-life crisis, souped-up Honda ’91 that looks like it belongs to a gangsta.

          • Of course, but this isn’t just a matter of optics and relative observation points. It’s a matter of real changes spurred by industrialization, urbanization and other forces which have substantially changed our societies and cultures.

          • chefofsinners

            Over a longer time frame the pendulum swings to and fro. It seems to have reversed recently, but the new name for faith is ‘post truth’.

          • dannybhoy

            I’m an ordinary dude/bloke.
            Not exactly dim but not bright either.
            I look at the stars, I llook at the fossil record, the theory of evolution. I look at the beauty of flowers and the intricisies of bulbs and seeds, at human sperm and eggs, and the peculiarities of being human, and I wonder and question and reflect.

          • Havens help anyone who makes the mistake to assume that you’re an ordinary bloke and tries to tackle with you, Danny.

          • dannybhoy

            No, seriously my Jewish friend, I am but a speck of consciousness with no significance outside of myself except that the Creator bestows. It is my Creator who brings sense to my existence, my trials my tribulations. my shameful and deliberate failings.
            If someone was able to convince me that it is all an accident, a cosmic convergence of accidental atoms moved upon by some primal meaninglessness; somehow resulting in the sheer beauty and complexity of natural processes and living things, I would still be left with questions……. ;0)

          • Yet, the nature of an authentic faith is that no one should ever be able to convince us of an accidental, meaningless existence! This is what makes atheists nuts.

          • Dreadnaught

            Not at all – don’t think I am mad said the madman. I reject religion because you can’t all be right on the money. Why should there even be reason for life on Earth, I doubt that it even matters on the Cosmic scale.

          • I wasn’t criticizing your position or conclusions, Dredders. In fact, I have much more respect for atheism than many of my coreligionist colleagues and friends tolerate. But the nature of knowledge is such, that neither you nor I can plonk down indisputable empirical evidence for our respective positions. I was thinking of the recent crop of celebrity pop-atheists, who work themselves to a lather about the “stupidity” of purely faith-based belief.

          • Dreadnaught

            We are all guilty at times of broad-brushing; part of human nauture I reckon. Done it meself many times no need to apologise, I think I know how you tick MrB.

          • Merchantman

            I agree, just look at God’s provision of sweetness before the scientists started tinkering: Honey Bees and Maple Syrup. Just two naturally readily available sources I am aware of.

          • dannybhoy

            :0)

            It is plants and more specifically bulbs that fascinate me. All the information necessary to produce say, a tete a tete dwarf daffodil is contained in that little bulb, and all it requires is moisture and warmth. But how. what is and where is the ‘control centre’ that makes it happen?
            Another thing is,
            if life started as a chance event, an act of randomness in a universe without meaning; then like that little bulb what could account for the assembling of atoms into mindless cells, or into anything more than cells?
            If there is no God, no sentient intelligence, what could possibly account not just for life but a directional, developing, diversifying kind of life that apparently ‘wishes’ to become more complex?
            An accidental, unthinking blind force does not provide sufficient explanation for all we see around us..
            Now of course we could go on to debate what kind of Being could be responsible for all this complexity, and to what degree this being interacts with life; but as I understand it ‘a accident’ is an insufficient explanation.

          • Dominic Stockford

            And we build cathedrals to leisure and to consumerism, whilst churches that preach the Gospel are empty.

          • David

            In my experience it is the churches that offer liberalism that are emptying whilst the ones where the full gospel is preached are growing.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Not in mine. In South West London it is the liberal way to attend a nice social gospel teaching church, fill yourself with good works, and deride, mock and belittle those who refuse to play the ecumenical game and stick to the pure gospel.

          • David

            Our different experiences reflect different demographies I suspect. The explanation may be that, in large urban areas there is, as yet, still a larger supply of liberals than the conservative Biblically led ones.
            Certainly politically, London and the large conurbations are far more liberal in their voting patterns than rural and small town England, as the Brexit referendum illustrated graphically. What the exact correlation is between political and faith liberalism would be an interesting area of study. But I strongly suspect that people of faith who are liberal would tend to be also liberal politically.

      • Holger

        The Organisations Internationales Catholiques is a crypto-fascist assiciation of various Catholic organisations dedicated to exterminating modernity and dragging us all back into the Dark Ages.

        I believe their societal ideal can be pinpointed to approximately 995 AD. Just before the first millenium when fear of coming judgment was at its paroxysm, therefore obedience to church diktats was unquestioning.

        They love this period. Women were still chattels. Gays and Infidels were killed on sight. The average lifespan was under 40 years. Life was nasty, brutish and short. This is what they want for us: grinding poverty and disease. The poor depend on dreams of eternal paradise – look at the success of Christianity in the Third World. In such a world the supremacy of the Church goes unquestioned and the personal power of its hierarchy is not disputed.

        If the OIC supports a measure, you can be sure it’s not just reactionary, but antediluvian.

        • You seem tortured by yesterday’s hobgoblins, Linus. Makes it hard to figure out what’s actually going on, and one wonders how you sleep at night.

          • len

            I think Holger is decribing life under I S rule. That is the true nightmare.

          • dannybhoy

            Poor chap, He is desperate to be loved and noticed, but only on his own terms..

        • Dominic Stockford

          Rome would still love it if we couldn’t read the Bible in our own language, so they could have power over people.

          • Evidence?

          • Cressida de Nova

            The Church is going to have to be more discerning of whom they accept as seminarians. The spiritual and financial cost is too great in the lowering of standards

        • Inspector General

          Your permanent depression isn’t anything to with you picking up Higgins’ disease is it? If it is, then it’s your own fault, but why do the rest of us have to suffer…

        • bluedog

          995 AD? The Muslims want to drag us back to 632.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Their 632, that is. Which is not the same as our very enlightened Anglo-Saxon Christian Age: Dark Ages being a nasty misnomer put about by post-modernists who haven’t troubled themselves to study the relevant texts. Indeed – they and their mozzie buddies have developed the Darkest Age ever: right now.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Absolutely! Anglo-Saxon England was a thriving, civilised and culture country…

          • Merchantman

            ….was a thriving,civilised and culture country….Until with permission of the then Pope we were invaded and taken down.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Mmmmm well yes.

          • It’s a tad more complex than that woeful tale.

          • 1642again

            The world’s first centrally governed nation state according to some. Ahead ofbits time.

      • Dreadnaught

        Organisation of Islamic Co-operation. 57 Islamic countries with a seat at the United Nations – do check them out Dan.

    • “All of this moral and religious decadence favours Islam.”

      It’s internal decay, not simply an external threat.

      • Dreadnaught

        And who is murdering Christians and ‘non-conformist’ Muslims’ and any innocent bystander on beach or boulevard?
        You and your Church have been playing the role of detractors of truth about Islam by conflating your version of the situation that you understand quite well.
        In their extreme naivete, Christian clerics apart from a small number, have opened their churches to the invader religion.
        That Christianity has lost its power when it has failed in living up to its mission statement is like M&S blaming the customers for not buying their knickers.

        • Think you’ll finds that the Catholic Church has always been aware of the threat from both the aggressive and cultural expansion of Islam.

          Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI had a profound understanding of Islam As Pope, he asked Islam for dialogue based on culture, human rights, the refusal of violence, and, at the same time, asked the West to go back to a vision of nature and rationality in which the religious dimension is not excluded.

          Benedict XVI understood there is no orthodoxy in Islam, because there is no one authority, no common doctrinal magisterium, making dialogue difficult. When we engage in dialogue, it is not “with Islam”, but with groups. He also tackled Shari’a and understood the Koran is a total religious law, which regulates the whole of political and social life and insists that the whole order of life be Islamic.

          He wrote: “Shari’a shapes society from beginning to end. In this sense, it can exploit such freedoms as our constitutions give, but it cannot be its final goal to say: Yes, now we too are a body with rights, now we are present [in society] just like the Catholics and the Protestants. In such a situation, [Islam] would not achieve a status consistent with its inner nature; it would be in alienation from itself”.

          This alienation can only be resolved through the total Islamization of society. When for example an Islamic finds himself in a Western society, he can benefit from or exploit certain elements, but he can never identify himself with the non-Muslim citizen, because he does not find himself in a Muslim society.

          As Cardinal Ratzinger he saw clearly an essential difficulty of socio-political relations with the Muslim world. The totalizing conception of Islamic religion is profoundly different from Christianity, so we cannot project onto Islam the Christian vision of the relationship between politics and religion. He also started from a theological point of view, taking into account the Islamic conception of revelation: the Koran “descended” upon Mohammad, it is not “inspired” to Mohammad. For this reason, a Muslim does not think himself authorized to interpret the Koran, but is tied to this text which emerged in Arabia in the 7th century. This brings to the same conclusions as before: the absolute nature of the Koran makes dialogue all the more difficult, because there is very little room for interpretation, if at all.

          As for the decandent West, He had this to say:

          “It has been said that we must not speak of God in the European constitution, because we must not offend Muslims and the faithful of other religions. The opposite is true: what offends Muslims and the faithful of other religions is not talking about God or our Christian roots, but rather the disdain for God and the sacred, that separates us from other cultures and does not create the opportunity for encounter, but expresses the arrogance of diminished, reduced reason, which provokes fundamentalist reactions.”

          Islam has a certainty based on faith which contrasts with the West where everything is relativized. The sense of the sacred has disappeared in the West. He suggested that a Muslim is not offended by the crucifix, by religious symbols, that this is actually a laicist polemic that strives to eliminate the religious from society. Muslims are not offended so much by religious symbols, but by secularized culture, by the fact that God and the values that they associate with God are absent from our civilization.

          • bluedog

            Ratzinger was shamelssly bullied by both the liberal left and the Muslim clerics for telling the truth about Islam. One notes your new man is steering clear.

          • Francis doesn’t have the intellect of Ratzinger, plus his background is South America.

          • chefofsinners

            Good job you’ve got two popes then. A populist and a theologian.

          • bluedog

            Sadly Ratzinger has been silenced.

          • His legacy lives on and is available in his written works.

          • One Pope and one Pope Emeritus. The former a pastor; the latter a great theologian.

          • chefofsinners

            If he was that great he’d be a protestant.

          • He’s a man of faith and reason, not protestation.

          • dannybhoy

            Danny reverently approaches il Papa with a message from Irate Jack of Kirkcudbright..
            It says your holiness,
            “Mia amigo, you’ve turned out to be a bleedin’ waste of white smoke,,,,”
            May I apologise on behalf of my Catholic friend Grumpy Jack?
            He is vertically challenged i.e.little: orange, and his emerods have been playing up something awful….

          • Dreadnaught

            Its not just a question of the West man, its all over the globe.
            No churches or bibles in Saudi Arabia. Christians in Middle-east and Pakistan, Indonesia ad nauseum; murdered by Muslims for their Faith.
            The list is endless and not confined the the UK. Its all about world domination by Islam; little by little by little by little until it has a strangle hold because and what have Christian leaders done ? Sweet FA.

          • Because, as Ratzinger points out, they have no answer given their liberal, secular mind-set that fails to distinguish between faiths.

          • Coniston
          • bluedog

            The original address was given in 2005. If you are quoting a 2006 version it may be the amended edition that was needed to appease the 139 Muslim clerics who wrote to protest about Ratzinger’s exposure of the truth.

          • Coniston

            Benedict XVI Speeches 2006 September

            http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg.html
            APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
            TO MÜNCHEN, ALTÖTTING AND REGENSBURG
            (SEPTEMBER 9-14, 2006)
            MEETING WITH THE REPRESENTATIVES OF SCIENCE
            LECTURE OF THE HOLY FATHER
            Aula Magna of the University of Regensburg
            Tuesday, 12 September 2006

          • bluedog

            Happy to be corrected.

    • len

      ‘The Western Church’ has become fat complacent and soft. It has become literally ‘vomit’ in the mouth of Jesus Christ and is about to be spat out if it does not repent and re unite with Jesus Christ.(Revelation 3:14)
      The time to be nice and politically correct about’ The Church’ has gone.

      • Dominic Stockford

        It is, it seems to me, not even lukewarm. A local CofE newsletter was stuck through our door today. There is nothing about Christ, or about faith, to be found in it. Lots about how wonderful they are, and how they need more of people’s money though.

  • betteroffoutofit

    Thanks again, Mrs. P!!!
    I love this, about the crass bureau over the water: “Article 50. (One would have thought 39 Articles were enough for anyone) ….”

    As for Lola’s getting what she wants 🙂 Or, rather, I think that should that be : ( , especially as she really thinks she’s playing with fools …..

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Many thanks betteroff, Lola is trying hard to get what she wants, but who is funding her I wonder?

      • betteroffoutofit

        Judging by her pre-marital name, some sort of Guyanayan Singer?

      • Merchantman

        Well it’s not Bismark for once. They say its a dark shadow called Soros.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          The Lord Soros. Does he still live in Barad Dhur?

      • Hubby number 3 has deep pockets I seem to have read somewhere.

  • bluedog

    What a relief to return to the normality of Barchester, Mrs P. One hears that on the Primrose League’s tour of Poland the charabanc was boarded by some very unsavoury types indeed.

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Oh Heavens, dear Bluedog…you think Barchester normal?

      • bluedog

        Dear Mrs P, had you not noticed? Barchester is uncommonly normal hence the enduring appeal of your Portrait of the Week.

        As if in some sort of cyber-costume drama, one is transported back to a gentler, kinder and quintessentially English world, exquisitely mannered, Christian and ordered, where every one seems to know their place. Gays, the disadvantaged and immigrants are included and given their own important roles to play.

        On the hand your weekly posts reek of white privilege and patriarchal prejudice where gays, immigrants and the disabled are mocked and become the butt of long running jokes. In a class riddled society, women are denied the vote and seemingly any role in the community other than as purveyors of gossip and bearers of children. The dominant position of the male is enhanced and legitimised by the suffocating Christian doctrine of headship.

        Now, which is it?

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Goodness, you are not Linus in wolfhound’s clothing, are you?

          • bluedog

            No, not all. It’s just that having started off on a vision of an endless summer in Barchester, one was suddenly seized with the possibility of a progressive alternative. One has to hedge one’s bets in these difficult times.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Thank goodness! I almost snapped my quill in half and locked myself in the East Tower…

        • IrishNeanderthal

          the suffocating Christian doctrine of headship

          So many people seem to think that what one might call “the religion of the Y-Chromosome” started with Abraham or Paul or whoever.

          They seem to have overlooked, or never learned of, things like widow burning or footbinding in lands further east.

          And although the Prophet Mohammed gets a lot of stick these days, he did put a stop to the practice of female infanticide.

          • bluedog

            You’ve just explained why Islam has never taken hold in China.

  • Dreadnaught

    Merkel still doesn’t get the message and I think she never will, as she lectures Trump on the Geneva Covention.
    A Convention which never envisaged the problem of ‘refugees’ who leave their families behind, and avoid taking refuge in the first safe country, opt instead for another, on a different continent, with open borders and free cash for life. Who’d a thought it.

    She[Merkel] is convinced that even the necessary, decisive battle against terrorism does not justify putting people of a specific background or faith under general suspicion
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-germany-idUSKBN15D0FE?il=0

    • Conventions and constitutions have now become “living” entities, the assumption being that we are free to reinterpret their meaning as long as we are increasingly “progressive” in our interpretations. It’s possible that this idea has reached its high water mark and are about to experience the power of the undertow.

      • Dreadnaught

        Let’s hope so. And while we’re about it sort out Trudeau on the facts if life in the free world; while it still exists.

        • I don’t want to think about Trudeau. His latest brain wave function consists of a promise to take in all the Syrians rejected by the the US.

          • Dreadnaught

            Oh FFS. A vote – a vote – My Kingdom for your vote; and don’t forget to tell your friends.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            It’s probably just talk, the obligatory virtue signalling

          • Oh no, you are most regretably wrong on that. The man is an idiot with a mission, lots of tenacity and millions of deluded sycophantic lemmings behind him.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Canada is the country where, after all, a mayor attempted to pre-censor all sermons preached by pastors in ‘her’ city to ensure they said nothing nasty about homosexuals or other sinners.

          • I didn’t know that, but no problem believing it. The Left here has gone bonkers, just as everywhere else. We Canadians are obedient to a fault, so I can see the mayor trying this shtik by a drafting a humdrum municipal regulation no one was supposed to really notice.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I believe Baby Doc was a drama teacher…aka professional hissy-fitter

          • You are right, Mrs P. Not that he even had to do that for a living, being a bona fide member of a Canadian dynasty.

            And a curious election we had; we (I had nothing to do with that, though) bumped a PM who made Canada soar economically and internationally, but was a bit of a curmudgeon, replacing him with a pseudo-celebrity who has already tanked our economy half way through his term and practically pledged to do that when he actually promised a huge deficit, a flood of migrants and a national energy policy based on …begging your pardon for the indelicate, but scientifically accurate term… unicorn farts.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Ah yes, Comrade Corbyn promises unicorn farts over here too..

          • dannybhoy

            Wasn’t it he that Mr Slope credited with opening his eyes??

        • PS, I suspect Trump hit on the most effective method: Rip apart the status quo in the most dramatic ways, make over-the-top claims and threats and let the opposition burn itself out with hysteria in the streets, while quietly working on substantive changes. He’s been in the Oval Office for a week and just look at the melt-down as the Dems are trying to keep up with his manic energy.

          • Dreadnaught

            He’s the wakeup call all politicians needed.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            Oh for a British Prime Minister like Trump. Not that our “opposition” needs to be burnt out – it’s hard to set fire to wet ashes.

          • Hahahaha! Gotta remember that one, hard to set fire to wet ashes”!

          • Anton

            The Dutch have a man of stature high in their political system who takes this view, Geert Wilders. We need our Geert Wilders.

      • David

        Yes so strongly and foolishly do the so called “progressives” believe in their lineartrajectory of history rubbish, that they’ve mentally blocked any other change of direction out of their little brainwashed minds. In short they’ve stopped thinking and instead just emote.

      • Dreadnaught

        Thought that this interview being Canadian sourced mightt interest you and be worth passing on.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sveep7k0GGg

        • Interesting! I never heard of her. The Peel school board covers the city of Mississauga, just west of Toronto, and has the highest concentration of Muslims outside of Dearborn, Michigan. That took some nerve, to speak out there as former Muslim. With bare arms and tats, to boot!

    • David

      When you are are at war, as we are effectively, you are forced to deal with whole categories of people. It is not perfect justice but better than importing terrorists. Churchill had no choice but to place thousands of peaceful Italians on the Isle of Man, involuntarily, and most were probably not spies, so that was not perfect justice either. But in war distasteful things must be done, to save lives and win the war. Where Trump leads other western “leaders” will follow, just as with re-erecting border controls in the Schnengen Zone.

      • Dreadnaught

        The West will not recognise that war has been declared upon it by Islamic fundamentalists and their apologists The first line of our defence should be challenging the calls to violence contained within the Koran.
        The banning of Sharia courts and conditions contained within it should likewise be outlawed and observance of British Law pre-eminent as the only legal authority.
        The war being waged on us is not a war of religion but of ideology. That they call it a religion is to use false colours. It is a wholly 7th century Arab construct to dominate anyone who can not/will not, stand against it.
        You referenced Churchill; his book River Wars clearly spells out the nature of Islam and ‘Mohamadans’ and danger of regarding them as anything other than the threat that they are to our way of life.

        • David

          The non-liberals of the west do recognise that war has been declared upon us. Apart from that I agree with your points. Yes Islam is not a religion like other faiths. It is as you say, primarily about controlling all aspects of life, and they are prepared to use force and fear to accomplish that.

          • 1642again

            Quite right. Anyone with any understanding of history knows that we have been in a continual war with Islam since the early 6th century, with just a few remissions. 1492 was the turning point to Christian predominance, perhaps 1979 marks a further turning of the tide against us. Only Christianity has offered any sustained or successful resistance to Islam, even in India it was the advent of the European powers that helped break the Islamicising Moghul hegemony and broke lesser Muslim states like that of Tipu Sultan.

            But the West is self-deluded and in an appeasement frame of mind. Just listening to BBC radio this morning just reinforces to me how powerful this psychosis is. Perhaps Trump is an anvil on which the elite’s appeasements will break. I pray so.

          • David

            Totally agree.
            Pray God that the elite’s delusions may soon be shattered, and that we can unite as before.

          • Anton

            1492 was no turning point. It is the date in which the last Muslims were expelled from Andalusia, yet Muslim power there had been broken rather earlier, and simultaneously Islam was rampant in Eastern Europe having taken Byzantium less than 40 years before; it would capture Hungary within another 40 years.

          • 1642again

            It was because it was the year of Spain’s discovery of the Americas which meant that they would become Christian and, alongside Portugal’s pioneering of the African circumnavigation route at a similar time, meant that Western power was no longer dependent on Muslim control of the trade routes and could reach the Far East directly.

          • Anton

            Agreed. I had taken you to be referring to explicit clashes between European institutional Christianity and Islam. The age of navigation was indeed a key determinant in world history.

            NB Islam was founded in the early 7th century, not 6th.

          • 1642again

            Yes of course, but Mohammed was born in the sixth which I took as the starting point just as Christ’s birth is the starting point for Christianity in chronological terms.

          • Anton

            You wrote of “a continual war with Islam since the early 6th century”.

          • 1642again

            I know. Apols. Fat fingers not following my thoughts!

  • NortyNina

    US President Donald Trump on Friday told Fox News that it was “too early” to talk about his controversial campaign promise to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

    In the interview, Trump refused to talk about it, saying it was too early to reveal any details.
    The prospect of an embassy location change has been met with applause by right-wing Israeli officials and strongly condemned by Palestinians and the international community.
    http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?ID=775145

    • len

      Predictable…

      • David

        I doubt whether Trump will be, overall, predictable.

        Buckle up for a bumpy ride !

        • len

          I meant ‘Numpty Nora’s’ news service is becoming more predictable than the weather.. A new feature on the blog?

          Trump certainly is a loose Cannon anything could happen and probably will!.

          • David

            Err “Numpty Nora’s” ….err, perhaps I am bit slow, but please explain.

  • TropicalAnglican

    President Donald Trump’s Facebook post, 2nd para:

    “We will keep it [America] free and keep it safe, as the media knows, but refuses to say. My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months. The seven countries named in the Executive Order are the same countries previously identified by the Obama administration as sources of terror. To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting.”
    Btw, I am quite sure I heard Sky News say, “Donald Trump’s travel ban”. Not “President Trump’s travel ban”. Wonder why…

  • I think the remark anything Johnnie Turk threw at us is misleading, they were on our side after all. Then perhaps it was Freudian slip by Mrs Proudie?

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Oh it was it was…one slips occasionally, but this was probably due to writing it whilst suffering from an attack of D and V, the details of which I shall not share…substitute Ivan if it makes you happier!

      • Dreadnaught

        That’s a bit of a bummer. get well soon.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Much better today thank you!

          • dannybhoy

            Hurrah!
            The Inspector emerges from self imposed exile and Mrs Proudie emerges from the er,….

      • chefofsinners

        An attack of Donald and Vladimir? Glad you’ve seen ’em off old gal.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          naughty