Ethics & Morality

Vegetarianism a protected belief? How can a quango ignore the will of Parliament?

At the end of last year, without much fanfare, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) issued Religion or belief: a guide to the law. It’s the helpful kind of thing quangos do, and it justifies their existence. In it, we read (pp4f):

Which beliefs are protected by the Equality Act 2010?

The Act does not include a definition of belief other than ‘belief means any religious or
philosophical belief’ and includes a lack of a particular belief. The courts have developed
a definition of belief through the cases they have decided.
A belief need not include faith or worship of a god or gods, but it must affect how a
person lives their life or perceives the world.
For a philosophical belief to be protected under the Act it must:
• be genuinely held
• be a belief and not just an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of
information available
• be about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour
• attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance, and
• be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity and
not in conflict with fundamental rights of others. For example, Holocaust denial, or the
belief in racial superiority are not protected.

Beliefs such as humanism, pacifism, vegetarianism and the belief in man-made climate
change are all protected.”

Now, back when the Equality Bill was passed in March 2010, the then Labour Government stated quite explicitly that this would not happen.

A spokesman for Harriet Harman’s department, the Government Equality Office, said the government did not share the view that climate change or veganism were religious beliefs. A Government spokesman said: “The Equality Bill does not change the existing definition of religion or belief and the Government does not think that views or opinions based on scientific – or indeed on political – theories can be considered to be akin to religious beliefs or philosophical beliefs. Nor was it the intention in introducing the legislation that such beliefs should be covered.”

Parliament makes the law, the courts interpret it and the Commission offers factual and proportionate guidance to organisations where necessary. Yet under the guise of providing guidance, lest the courts should be in any doubt, the EHRC has stated authoritatively that life-style beliefs are, in fact, akin to religious belief. What Parliament was told would not happen, a quango has decided will most definitely be the case.

So..

From time to time there are vacancies for commissioners and committee members on EHRC bodies of governance. Perhaps someone with a more conservative view of Equality and Human Rights might apply, since conservatism is “about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour”; it attains “a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance; and is most certainly “worthy of respect in a democratic society, not incompatible with human dignity and not in conflict with fundamental rights of others”.

Given that conservatism is a philosophical belief worthy of (at least) the same respected and protected status as veganism and vegetarianism, it would be illegal for the EHRC to discriminate against an applicant who happened to believe, as the the Archbishop of Canterbury does, that equality as a government aim is “doomed to totalitarianism“. As previously observed:

Equality can either be engineered and imposed by government diktat, or fostered organically in society through education and moral inculcation. The latter would be a more conservative approach; the former an essentially socialist construction – though there are many variations of these political philosophies and variable traditions of social theology within those strands. Discerning core dichotomies and mutual exclusions is not an easy task for the moral theologian (though it’s not an unusual episcopal pursuit in the realm of political philosophy).

Inherent to conservatism is an undeniable ethical commitment which is central to who we are: conservatism has a distinct theology, articulated and expounded by Edmund Burke, which does not demand the worship of God or gods (though neither does it preclude it), but it most certainly affects how a person lives his or her life and perceives the world. The fact that few have ever recognised that conservatism is a theo-political creed is no reason for adherents to the philosophy not to be granted their rights under the law.

The Equality Act (2010) makes it a legal requirement for all public bodies to consider the impact of all their policies on minority groups.

At (say) the BBC, those of a conservative disposition are in a distinct minority. Since it now appears that the burden of proof in cases of alleged discrimination falls upon the accused to prove their innocence, perhaps there ought to be a stream of cases brought against (say) the BBC by every conservative (or Conservative) who happens to be rejected for a job.

If any sinister sect, trivial ‘-ism’ and ephemeral ‘-ology’ are now no different from the great Christian faith by which the laws and culture and freedoms of this nation were forged, it is difficult to understand why political beliefs are not covered by the legislation. Who has decreed that Islam is a religion and not a political philosophy? How is the EHRC distinguishing between those religions which overtly espouse a political objective and those which purport not to do so?

Or is that a matter for the courts?

Why does the non-belief in a god merit protection under the law, but not the belief that liberalism is antithetical to conservatism because of the consequent emphasis on individual autonomy and the rights of man? Why does the decision not to eat meat merit protection under the law, but not the commitment to a philosophy which manifests itself in patriotism, custom, respect for the law, loyalty to a leader or monarch, and in the willing acceptance of the privileges of those to whom privilege is granted?

Why do those who decide not to wear leather merit protection under the law, but not those who in some deeper part of themselves yearn for a social order which is motivated and consoled by the forces to which the conservative instinct is attuned?

Why is the commitment not to imbibe alcohol worthy of protection under the law, but not the conservative tradition of social concern and action which is rooted in the historic Christian faith?

How can fashion and matters of eating and drinking be more important than one’s theo-political worldview?

Does the EHRC not know that it is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean, but the official advice and guidance which is spewed out of it? Could a conservative be a Non-Executive Commissioner of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission?

  • Sigfridiii

    Vegetarianism is a “core value”, so to say, of a number of major religious traditions, and so it ought to be protected by the EHCR, in the theoretical event of discrimination occurring. By the same token, it should not need to be a component of a religious faith, but is equally worthy of respect as a humanist philosophy of respect for life.

    • Merchantman

      I’m not sure how many vege military menus are available. Maybe service would be restricted to a safe bunker somewhere.

      • Sigfridiii

        The UK military routinely provide a variety of menus for service men and women, one of which is vegetarian.

  • Anton

    Right. I hadn’t decided what to have for lunch, but it will now include meat.

    • David

      Same here ! It’ll be home made chicken soup flowed by a fruit.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Many organisations in this country get a vigorous and critical coverage from the media. This includes banks, big energy companies and other private firms, the NHS, prison service, and other public sector organisations, our armed forces (think of “tank chasing” lawyers), churches (especially in connection with cases of sexual abuse or accusations of ‘homophobia”), the police (institutional racism), our legal system (too many problems to list), parliament (e.g. the MPs’ expenses scandal), and so on.

    However there is one exception to this list; the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. When has the head of the EHRC ever been subject to vigorous questioning by a Paxman type interviewer on TV about its silence on the sexual abuse of predominantly white English girls by men who were mainly of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin? Has the EHRC ever said anything at on this subject at all? Would it have had anything to say if the girls had been non-white and their abusers white? That is a rhetorical question!

    The EHRC has come in for some very mild criticism in the media for its threats to religious freedom, e.g. cakes with slogans advocation a cause the bakers disagree with, or registrars who became registrars to perform real marriages and now, because of a change in the law, are compelled to perform something which never in the history of any country would have been regarded as a marriage.

    In general, however, criticism of the EHRC in the press has been muted. The media should do their duty and hold that organisation to account. Furthermore the head of the organisation should appear before a parliamentary committee and be forced to justify both its actions and its refusal to take action in cases like the “Asian” sexual abuse scandals.

    • David

      Well said !
      I look forward to the interview.

    • alternative_perspective

      I decided many years ago to boycott the BBC. The final straw that broke the camel’s back was watching Jeremy Paxman rollover and allow Richard Dawkins to tickle his tummy.
      Rigorous cross examination of the facts and philosophies held in society is rare – we have an inability as a people to critically reflect on our beliefs but when the Rottweiler of BBC news had the opportunity he thoroughly flunked it and proved to me, once and for all, that the BBC and British institutions generally, cannot be trusted to engage in balanced debate – particularly where their own worldview and assumptions are those under scrutiny.

    • Coniston

      One problem with the EHRC is certainly that most (all?) of its members will have a relativist outlook and therefore cannot understand any religion.

  • ChaucerChronicle

    Your Grace

    There is a possibility that vegetarianism is a protected belief under the Equality Act.

    This possibility raised by the Act and case law risks forming a bad policy position by the State.

    The late American cross-cultural psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg formulated a thesis on moral development (which has never been seriously challenged) He said that in the absence of a reasoned moral world-view, people use the law as a moral reference-point.

    If vegetarianism becomes protected then such groups as the Animal Liberation Front are likely to be encouraged to target high street butchers followed by attacks on kosher and halal.

    The ECHR needs to urgently revise its policy position to prevent serious social disorder from materialising in the future.

    • Anton

      He said that in the absence of a reasoned moral world-view, people use the law as a moral reference-point.

      There’s truth in that, but it fails to address the associated and deeper question of how the law came to be what it is in any given place.

    • David

      Kohlberg was right. Judges are now attempting to deliver what people were previously taught from the lectern and pulpit. Like post-modernism itself, it won’t work, unless your objective is chaos.

      • 1642again

        Or autocracy. Create enough chaos and people will trade their freedoms and wealth for order and security.

    • Anton

      I’d be with the Muslims on that one!

  • 1642again

    Since we started rearing our own meat, we eat lots more of it. I shoot and eat our own game too. You can’t beat some 80% pork or beef sausages you’ve made yourself, or a good game ragout, and as for our own bacon… Well even Avi would suspend Kosher dietary laws for a taste.

    • Anton

      I didn’t have you down as a veggie, 1642 !

    • David

      Quite !
      I’m with you there.
      Pigeons are my quarry.
      Taste wise, almost pure pork sausages are in a different league to even high quality supermarket offerings.

      • 1642again

        All agreed. Pigeon breast is an ideal starter!

      • Inspector General

        We’ve a few thousand crud fattened ‘pigeons’ in Gloucester if anyone is interested. All you need is a net. The meat is a delicate flavour of street abandoned burger and pavement chip, upon which they raise themselves. Weighty blighters too. Surprised they can all fly, the size of some of them. Perhaps Ethiopians would eat the things, they’re always moaning…

        • David

          Country pigeons have a better diet. Townies eat nasty junk food.
          So thanks but no thanks.

    • I wasn’t always kosher and long time ago, in the mists of history, I appreciated properly cured and processed pork, especially paper-thin Prosciutto slices, Virginia Smithfield hams and air-cured, cumin-spiced Balkan style Loukanka salami. And wild boar with its game flavour and superior texture, if you are allowed to hunt for it in your parts, is in a class of its own (stewed for hours in sweet red wine with pepper corns and a few bay leafs. Never slipped, since I got religion, but enjoy on my behalf. It’s not as bleak as you may think; many enjoy sizzling smoked kosher turkey slices (from parts with proper amounts of fat streaks) prepared to taste just like bacon, with eggs and hashed potatoes on a Sunday morning…only that the “kosher bacon” comes at about ten times the price of the real thing!

      • 1642again

        My sympathies but if your faith consoles you… I know some observant Jews who quite happily eat an full English breakfast.

        You’re right about wild boar, The greatest meat of all. There’s a piece of woodland next to our land I’d love to buy and I would rear boar in it, although you need a special licence and fencing.

        • English breakfasts with all-kosher items, some from the UK, are a thing in our house; wife being of Scots-English background. What I really miss is haggis, which could be ordered from a kosher butcher in Glasgow, until the bans on meat exports. I was going to try making it from scratch, but not sure I can get the innards from a local kosher butcher in time for Robbie Burns’ Night. Maybe some fried minced mutton with oatmeal and black pepper, neeps and tatties, and a bottle of Glenlivet. Halfway down the bottle it’ll all taste right.

          • Hi Avi

            Apparently President Trump wants to allow haggis imports. Not sure if you can nip across the border?

          • Excellent! How on earth did you find that out?!?! I’d have to eat it there, though, as Customs here only allows US meat products through the border crossings.

          • Hi Avi,

            I got the info from Guido Fwakes, BBC and Scottish papers have covered this as well, but no definitive news yet :

            https://order-order.com/2016/11/25/haggis-white-house/

            In respect of kosher Haggis, I’m not sure , but there’s Mark’s deli in Glasgow.

        • PS, The fencing is understandable. I once watched a boar work its way down a row of potato plants like a hairy bulldozer. It did one row, stood for a while, chewing, then turned right around and started for the next one. But wouldn’t it give it a less than wild taste since you’d have to supplement with commercial feed?

          • 1642again

            I doubt it’d make any difference as they tend to eat roots and worms etc as their wild diet?

          • Unless, like all animals, the ugly brutes get lazy, stare at you longingly with their sad little porcine eyes and wait for you to feed them with Purina Greedy Swine Chow (R) pellets . Beats getting their snouts dirty.

          • 1642again

            We keep pigs. Boars are even more feral and naughty. Totally unpc too.

          • Domesticated piggies are sweethearts, at least the ones our neighbours had, and yes, boars are boors…but un-PC?

  • David

    What a splendid article, penetrating this most difficult and obscure of subjects with a useful light, so thank you for it !

    Faith is essentially a matter of each individual human heart and mind, so trying to define what constitutes a faith, for the purposes of law, which to be of any value needs to be precise and clear, is a futile as attempting to bottle fog. Such attempts will inevitably simply be, crude reflections of the prejudices and value judgements of the law’s drafters, legislators, and interpreters. This will further split and polarise society; indeed one can argue that the outworking of fissures of this type have already been displayed large by the Brexit vote and now the Trump victory. Division and conflict is of course what Cultural Marxism hoped to achieve. So expect more division !

    I seldom agree with the wooly pronouncements of the Archbishop of Canterbury, but when he says that equality as a government aim, is “doomed to totalitarianism”, he is of course, being so obviously prescient.

    As for the perverse idea that the burden of proof is upon the accused to prove their innocence, in cases of alleged discrimination, this is in itself proof that the A of C is right, since “guilty until proven innocent” is surely one of the cornerstones of both our excellent Common Law and the concept of Natural Justice. So already we have embarked upon the long, slippery slope towards authoritarian rule. The new, so called “liberal” era, is of course a parody of true classical liberalism, which is about freedom, whereas contemporary liberalism is basically a deeply disingenuous authoritarianism.

    • Royinsouthwest

      “guilty until proven innocent” is surely one of the cornerstones of both our excellent Common Law and the concept of Natural Justice.

      That should, of course, be “innocent until proven guilty.”

      • David

        Woops !
        I’ve corrected that.
        Thank you for the pointer.

    • Dreadnaught

      Indeed a good OP and from what I have read so far, some good comments.

  • The Explorer

    Recently, I watched a series on Yellowstone. A devoted mother bear sought food for her cubs by capturing an elk calf. A devoted mother elk sought to protect her calf. One devoted mother had to lose out.

    Vegetarianism is not an option for the carnivores of the animal world. I find that a real problem in justifying the ways of God to man. C S Lewis said that the insect world looks like hell in action. He had a point. Perhaps it is.

    • Anton

      Do remember that the whole created order is fallen, not just the human race. One day the lion will lie down with the lamb, and children will play games with snakes (Isaiah 11). All that Disney stuff was unintentionally prophetic.

    • Hi explorer ,

      Yes it’s terrible: would Yogi really eat an elk? Also what’s not known to most is that Yellowstone is basically a large super volcano which in theory could explode anytime now or thousands of years, bringing catastrophic consequences ….. so like smoke em if you’ve got em…well o.k. eat some vegetables.

      • Greetings, Miss Hannah. Totally forgot about Yellowstone and how it could be the end us. Not to mention another Carrington Event, which would wipe out all countries dependent on electricity, or even an asteroid the size of a tennis court and the kinetic energy of Hell-unleashed, or speeding super novae coming at us out of nowhere at 7 million km/h, or losing our protective magnetic field….

        • CliveM

          Optimist

        • Pubcrawler

          Or roast potatoes giving us cancer.

          • Yeah, gotta love that one. You know the world’s gone nuts when it starts going after the potato.

          • Maalaistollo

            But as an American invention it must be suspect….

          • And it was, in Europe, since being of the nightshade family, people thought is poisonous. We wouldn’t all be here, chatting on the internet, without the potato, though.

      • The Explorer

        Mama Yogi would eat an elk. She did. So did her cubs.

  • Anton

    Provided that vegetarians don’t tell me I shouldn’t eat meat, I’m happy not to tell them that they should. Simple.

    EHRC [NB not EHCR above, Your Grace] is going to try to extend its benefice to animals soon, I suspect.

  • Maalaistollo

    I wonder if there has yet been a determination as to the ‘level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance’ attained by the beliefs espoused by the adherents of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Maybe, to encourage inclusiveness, certain senior Anglican clerics could add colanders to their priestly garb.

    • David

      Oh no ! Colanders constrain the monster mid-flight. How controlling and callous of you to inhibit the monster’s liberal freedoms !

      • Maalaistollo

        But at least the clerical headgear could manifest the beauty of holeyness.

      • Not necessarily. Some sects hold that the Holy Collander is the vessel that contains and supports the Sublime Spaghetti Monster in Its oneness, preventing Its unraveling and dissolution.

    • Anton

      They’ve been using colanders to hold their doctrine for a while now.

  • Dreadnaught

    Why does the non-belief in a god merit protection under the law

    Of course it shouldn’t; otherrwise no doubt a paedophile could claim that his/her abusing of children is a genuine belief that the children are enjoying it.
    It’s a clear case of Lawyers drafting Law that will keep them in the manner to which they have become accustomed for millennia.

    If there were no bad people, there would be no good lawyers.
    Charles Dickens

  • CliveM

    Vegetarianism a protected belief? Protected from whom? Where lies the threat?

    Several years back a climate activist won a case against his employer, arguing that his moral values should be recognised under the same laws as religious belief. He believed his dismissal was as a result of his green beliefs. The ruling meant that employers now need to take into account their employees views on sustainable travel, recycling etc.

    Does this statement by the EHRC mean that butchers who find an employee has turned vegetarian has to find them a non meat related job and are unable to sack them if the refuse to work with meat?

    • David

      A splendid teaser !

      • William Lewis

        “Vegetarianism a protected belief? Protected from whom? Where lies the threat?”

        Vegephobic bigotry!

        • CliveM

          So your saying fussy 5 year olds.

          • William Lewis

            Yes, they are the worst offenders. They tend to tell it like it is and no snowflake wants to hear that.

          • CliveM

            Well they need reported for extremism as part of the governments ‘prevent’ strategy.

          • William Lewis

            I think that nurseries are already on the look out for this kind of extremism. Teachers can look for telltale signs, like when children start saying things like “I like sausages” or “cabbage is yuk!” Then they can start to re-educate the kids on how offensive that kind of talk is to those people who feel attracted to fresh fruit and the like.

          • CliveM

            What concerns me is if this is the behaviour of the children, just what are the parents like? UKIP supporters probably.

            This is a serious issue. People like that need named, shamed and re-educated and their kids fostered by a lentlil farmer in India.

          • William Lewis

            Quite.

    • Anton

      Climate change IS part of the Green religion. Certainly global warming of dangerous magnitude due to human activity is a mater of faith in opposition to the (satellite) data.

      • CliveM

        It is curious that a view that claims to be science based, has come to be treated the same way as a religion.

  • The benefits and disadvantages of a vegetarian diet can be assessed rationally by conducting scientific experiments; belief simply doesn’t enter into it. Similarly, the existence or otherwise of man-made climate change and the truth or otherwise of the Holocaust can be settled rationally. For the sake of the Enlightenment and human progress, belief should only be used to describe assumptions immune to rational resolution.

  • Dreadnaught

    The Equality Act 2010 makes it unlawful to discriminate against someone because
    of religion or belief, or because of a lack a religion or belief. For example, the Act
    protects Christians if they are discriminated against because of their Christian beliefs.
    It also protects those who are discriminated against because they are not Christians,
    regardless of whether they have another religion or no religious belief.

    A perfect example of Orwellian double speak that does little to disguise the real objective of prioritisng the ‘new order’ where minorities rule. By first mentioning the protection it is supposed to afford Christians in an historic Christian Culture homeland, it omits why such protection should be needed at all? It did not protect the Belfast cake shop owners, which it should have done; other cake shops were available but they were scapegoated to prove a point.
    It lamely seeks to deflect attention from the implication of the Act to establish a legal defence for the uncriticisable expansion of Islam in the West: at least that will be the consequence if this law is not revised or repealed.
    If and when that dominant global movement (the 57 country, Organisation of Islamic Co-operation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation) assumes the ascendency of influence in this Country, all other protections and rights that are not compatible with Sharia will be removed faster than the head of a Saudi homo in Chop-Chop Square.

  • Hi

    Well if a lifestyle choice is protected, shouldn’t the following have protected status too?

    Smokers
    Caffeine drinkers
    Alcohol consumers
    Fruit only eaters (fruitarians)
    E- cigarette users
    Tea drinkers
    Those on a red meat diet
    Junk food consumers
    Cannabis Smokers

    • ChaucerChronicle

      Equality Act 2010

      19. Indirect discrimination

      (1) A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B’s.

      (2) For the purposes of subsection (1), a provision, criterion or practice is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B’s if—

      (a) A applies, or would apply, it to persons with whom B does not share the characteristic,

      (b) it puts, or would put, persons with whom B shares the characteristic at a particular disadvantage when compared with persons with whom B does not share it,

      (c) it puts, or would put, B at that disadvantage, and

      (d) A cannot show it to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

      (3) The relevant protected characteristics are—

      age;
      disability;
      gender reassignment;
      marriage and civil partnership;
      race;
      religion or belief;
      sex;
      sexual orientation.

      • Anton

        So I’m no longer allowed to run a company that requires employees to eat meat at lunchtime?

        • Dominic Stockford

          Your ‘lunch-time meat tasting company’ will have to close….

        • ChaucerChronicle

          That is likley to be, arguably, negative discrimination.

      • Hi

        From memory I believe that there is an American religion where smoking cannabis is part of their religious practices, so is allowed. Presumably this should apply to Britain ,given your well researched post?

        • ChaucerChronicle

          Yes, of course that would be arguable.

        • Cannabis should be allowed on the grounds that it’s pleasant and relatively safe when consumed in moderation, on occasion and by adults. I never bought the “medical marijuana” bull, and the latest studies confirm it. Let’s just call it having fun. It’s becoming legal here in Canuckistan in the Spring, although the gov’t is trying to run monopolies and crony capitalist deals, as is its custom. I’d be happy if they just decriminalized it, with fines for public toking and stinking up the streets.

          • ChaucerChronicle

            That would bring chaos, Avi.

          • It’s been legal in Holland, and in some US states for years. Here in Canada, it’s still illegal until Spring, but has been virtually legal, as no judge has accepted a charge for personal quantities in years. In British Columbia “illegal” shops advertise openly. So far, no disaster; use has peaked, just as in Holland and legalization actually causes decline in use.

          • ChaucerChronicle

            October 15, 2012 by Dr. Terry Ellis

            In January 1968, Malcolm Muggeridge resigned as Rector of the University of Edinburgh. He left because he would not be party to the relaxation of rules at the school that prohibited students from buying and selling marijuana on campus. He faced a hostile crowd as he gave his final address to the students.

            “The students of this university are the beneficiaries of centuries of selfless scholarship. You are supposed to spearhead progress and to carry on the torch of humanity. Speaking for myself there is practically nothing that you could do in a mood of rebellion against our impoverished way of life for which I should not feel some degree of sympathy. But how infinitely sad, how macabre that the form of your rebellion should be a demand for drugs, for the most tenth rate sort of self indulgence ever known in history. All is prepared for a release of new life. We await great works of art, the spirit of adventure and courage, and what do we get from you? Self centered folly. You are on a crazy slope. For myself, I always come back to the King, to Jesus, to the Christian notion that all our efforts to make ourselves happy will fail, but that sacrifice for others will never fail. A man must become a new man, or he is no man. Or so at least I have concluded, having failed to find in past experience and present dilemmas any alternative proposition. As far as I am concerned, it is Christ or nothing. Goodbye and God bless you.”

            Malcolm Muggerridge

          • Old Malcolm fretted too much. Marijuana use follows predictable numbers and patterns, which are comparatively benign. It also appears to moderate the use of the three truly scary drugs which devastated the West at the start of the 19th century; mass produced and cheap alcohol, pre-rolled cigarettes and purified opiates (thanks to the UK!) Back in the 80s, our gov’ts in US and Canada went ape after marijuana. It essentially disappeared overnight, not to be seen for nearly two years until home-grown methods developed. In that time we saw the appearance of crack cocaine, the return of heroin and the first synthetic opioids.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Personally, I’m allergic to all those smokey things, and I can’t see what the fuss is about. Why do people like them? In hospitals and personally – I’ve seen the damage they do to lungs — indeed, cigarettes killed my old Dad. I suspect that mary jane, which seems stronger and seeps through walls more easily, is the deadlier of the two.

          • Yes, agreed, smoked it’s pretty high in particulates and carbon monoxide. I gave it up in smokeable form when I quit cigs two years ago almost. Sorry to hear about your Dad; mine’s got emphysema and I hope to convinct him to vape instead, for whatever it’s worth at this point.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Thanks, Avi – and I’m sorry about you and yours. It’s terrible to watch them struggling for breath – though, between gasps, mine would insist “… remember – I enjoyed – every – cigarette!!!”

          • I still have cigarette dreams and urges, especially after a few drinks. But vaping does the job at those times. It’s unfortunate that vaping wasn’t around then; it’s saving a lot of people in their 50s now. Actually, it’s been around since early 60s, but without the long-lasting lithium battery and the computer chip to control it, it wasn’t viable.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Yes. That’s how it worked for me, even though cigarettes made me sick (couldn’t smoke one through). The process of giving them up made me understand the meaning of ‘addiction.’

          • Funny hat you mentioned it. Before I quit I noticed that I wasn’t able to finish a smoke to the end; it just felt uggy. The giving up made me half-nuts, and I gained about 15 pounds, but it was worth it. Over a year of cravings and for sure I wouldn’t have lasted (or even made an attempt) without vaping. Cross-country highway trucking can get very boring and smoking, the hand-to-mouth motions probably, keep you awake.

          • Hi

            Unfortunately over here , the unofficial health police have seen to it to make sure vaping is banned from cafes and trains , public places etc.

          • Here as well. They treat it as regular cigs, under tobacco regulations, even if no nicotine is added to the e-juice. A rather stupid way of treating the first effective smoking cessation technology. Anyway, a discrete pen-type of an e-cig (one of mine is doctored up to look like a pen), a nearly invisible steam with the use of a higher propylene glycol mix, a little bit of pratice at taking stealth-drags and you can vape anywhere without anyone cluing in. While talking to them! You a smoker? Email me and I’ll give you tips on how to get off the bad weed with the best equipment and least amount of pain and hassle. Nothing like running again, without running out of breath

          • Anton

            My father smoked 20 a day from the age of 20 when he began National Service till he died aged 80, and it was not from cigarettes!

          • betteroffoutofit

            Ah well — Mine aimed for 80 a day — which could help explain my own allergies!

            Regardless, though, the relationship of cigarette-smoking and lung diseases is well attested in medical circles: from bronchitis and bronchiectasis through total destruction of lung tissue in emphysema. And then there’s carcinoma …

          • Smoking and alcohol contributed to Jack’s throat cancer and the radiotherapy treatment has caused permanent damage to his upper respiratory tract, not helped by serious scarring to his lungs through pneumonia caught when he was in hospital. Yet he still craves a cigarette, although he wouldn’t actually be able to smoke one. He even struggles with vaping.

          • Hi

            Big Hugs to happy Jack from me!

            I use a cigarette now , got into it because during Shabbat you can’t light a fire . So as that includes combustible materials : an e cigarette did the trick. And I decided I had to stop sometime.

          • Well done. Jack is surprised to learn you ever smoked. E-cigs are a blessing for us addicts.

          • Hi happy Jack ,

            When I’m reflecting, I think I might have a little-known issue with authority and on occasion , may be somewhat rebellious and impetuous.

          • Never ….

          • Ha! I missed this post. Congratulations! You’ll notice the more you vape, the more disgusting “analog” cigs become, until you gag at the acrid smell. Quick advice, if I may; get a reliable box-mod (e.g., Kangertech Nano avaible in the UK) with variable voltage to control the strength and go with 18-25 mg nicotine content to keep you from back-sliding or murdering strangers.

          • PS, lucky you; my community is stricter on the issue, as it includes prohibition on altering an electrical current and heating a coil. Would be nice if someone could compress the vapour into those little metal containers like the ones for CO2 and come up with a mechanically controlled slow-release. Can’t see any halakhic issues with that. But you’ll find you’ll be able to do without for a long time, as the nicotine from vaping doesn’t absorb as much as from smoke and you realize that you’ve pretty well become a non-smokers, with a mild, mostly psychosomatic dependence on it.

          • You know that when you say that, I’ll the of the worst.

          • Hah …

          • Oh, go on! Everyone’s asleep now on your side of the big puddle anyway.

          • Thank you, I appreciate that. Saw it on my notifications.

          • Pubcrawler
          • Anton

            Of course the government should legalise it and tax it. That is what it does with hard liquor, after all.

          • That they will, but the provinces, which will set their own policies, imagine huge profits, which are unlikely to appear. Marijuana is not alcohol, which is a pain to make without expensive equipment, sufficient space and stinking-up your whole street block, and it’s hard to transport and distribute.

            But the premiers are in a frenzy, all plotting to cut out the little guys, already selling rights to conglomerates, cronies, former MPs and chiefs of police and all the other government trough trash. Reams of regulations require growers to run space-age tech operations and sign up for insane quality testing regimes and distributors will pay out millions for permits, fines and bribes. All for growing a stupid weed.

            And all the folks who already have permission to grow medical pot for themselves (and always go over the limits) and anyone with a few hundred dollars of heat lamps and a walk-in closet who willing to risk a fine, are going to kick the feet right out from under this pipe dream.

          • Apparently, one can now get cannabis vape with various blends of THC and CBD. Not that Jack knows about these things ….

          • Avi knows a bit more, having developed a vegetable glycol based admixture (with a secret emulsifier) for regular vaping devices in preparation for the upcoming legalization and the provincial licensing hurdles…if he can find someone with a million or two to handle the government permits, lab testing and the inescapable lawyers. And if about half the “heads” in Canada haven’t stumbled on the same formula and sold it to big pharma for a bowl of red lentils in the form of a couple of thousand bucks and a weekend at a catered ski chalet at Whistler. But we digress.

          • carl jacobs

            For someone who doesn’t know about these things, you sure do know a lot about these things.

          • Seriously, in Jack’s day “skunk” wasn’t around. He’s witnessed the harm this causes to mental health. Some people have a weakness for it – just like some have a weakness for tobacco and alcohol. For others, in moderation, it appears to cause no harm. For all that, Jack is against decriminalisation.

          • carl jacobs
          • Dead link on my end, but “Sgt. Friday explains dangers of weed” on YouTube did the job. How do you find this stuff? Did you have to watch it on a rattling 8mm projector at officers school?

          • carl jacobs

            Joe Friday is an American Icon. The show is “Dragnet”.

            You should watch an episode called the “Big High” from 1967. It is one of the best Dragnet episodes ever made. You can find it on Netflix. Pretty much encapsulates my attitude.

          • Not on our Netflix here. You get more stuff…and probably pay less.

          • carl jacobs

            Its on YouTube as well

          • I’ll give it a chance. You obviously think you can turn my life around, but do you think Sgt Friday has one on herring and what that can lead to?

          • carl jacobs

            The Episode is “Burglary: DR-31.”

            Herring can do this to you. Remember. You have been warned.

          • Get in line.I get warned at least a dozen times a day.

          • carl jacobs

            I fixed the link btw.

          • That was inspiring, Carl. You missed your true calling, in addiction counselling. But Sgt Friday was wrong in my case; I started off by trying acid, moved onto occasional pot and ended up downing schmaltz herring at bar mitzvahs.

          • carl jacobs

            Libertine.

        • Pubcrawler
          • Yeah, I know. Even knew Sephardi Orthodox Jewish family who avoided booze, especially wine, wore their uncut hair in turbans and ritually smoked grass before prayer. If people could just shut up and enjoy a joint now and then without making pot into a super-medicine or a holy herb!

          • Pubcrawler
          • Anton

            Yes, there are circles where cigarettes are socially unacceptable but weed is OK!

          • Pubcrawler

            Most of them at DAMTP, in my exp–, er, I seem to remember someone telling me once, a long time ago, not that I would know about such things *innocent face*…

          • Yes, our West Coast types. They’ll suck-back joints all day, but if you were to light up a cig near them, they cover their mouths and noses run away. But don’t worry, stupid seems to be a default human condition.

          • Hi

            It was the church of cannabis in Indiana I was thinking about. There was legal action, but Wikipedia doesn’t give a conclusion:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis#Legal_status

          • Pubcrawler

            Ah. Bunch of hippies, then. As ersatz religions go, it’s a lot better than Scientology, I guess.

          • Hi

            And there’s some native American tribe or Church which does use some kind of drug , but I can’t seem to find it.

          • Pubcrawler

            At a guess, peyote is the hallucinogen in question.

            Update:

            Yup.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Church

          • Anton

            Remarkably, it is still possible to buy specimens of Lophophora Williamsii (peyote) unrestricted!

          • Only illegal if you dry them out for consumption.

          • Anton

            In which case I will disclose that I went through a cactus phase in my youth and still have one. I wouldn’t dream of cutting it up, though.

        • 1642again

          I’ve never liked the idea of not being in control because I’m under chemical influence. Alcohol in moderation, mostly with food, abstinence a minimum two/three days a week, is all I want, and I run a brewery!

          • Anton

            Careful; Pubcrawler will probably be able to identify you!

          • Pubcrawler

            A crate of milk stout a week buys my silence.

          • 1642again

            We make an award winning double stout and an oatmeal stout, but not a milk stout, so no deal.

          • Anton

            I know who you are. But I would not dream of telling.

          • 1642again

            You must know your stuff! If you do, thanks, because some of Nina’s friends keep trying to find out.

          • Anton

            Clearly they don’t know much about beer.

          • 1642again

            They don’t know much about anything Anton, just unreasoning hate and paranoia.

          • Pubcrawler

            You’ve given enough clues…

            Make that two crates.

          • CliveM

            Hmm I haven’t worked it out , but would like to jump on this bandwagon and will pretend I know. Make that a crate of Double Stout for me.

          • Pubcrawler

            I’ll settle for oatmeal stout while you work on the recipe, then.

          • No milk stout in facilities? If so, you’re all kosdher.

          • As a friend used to say, “reality is for people who can’t handle drugs.” A brewery? That’s interesting. Very interesting. Feel free to send me barrels of your brews for professional testing. No charge; part of re-establishing trans-Atlantic trade relations. My cronies and I are very discerning types and someone is bound to remain sober enough to dial a phone and burp-out and detailed report. Unlimited experimental duplication offered as well, as long as the barrels continue rolling past my door.

          • 1642again

            Alas alcohol exporting to Canada is a bureaucratic nightmare…

          • Not if you drop the barrels somewhere off Newfoundland, at the Grand Banks and let me pick ’em up. Not many cod left to talk 🙂

          • carl jacobs

            Good grief! What kind of world wide conspiracy for global domination can’t get alcohol into Canada? C’mon now. Canada doesn’t even have a Navy.

          • My wife said she served in the Navy. That’s my sole evidence…hmm…..

          • 1642again

            We don’t want to dominate, just make the best beer for those who appreciate such things.

          • Hi 1642,

            I tend only to drink alcohol during Shabbat & holidays like Purim, , Passover, Rosh Hashanah, etc, all of which include blessings over wine and wine with meals, which can go on for a couple of hours . Plus familial & community celebrations like marriage, the celebrations of which start beforehand and afterwards , go on for a week.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      Hello Hannah,

      I’ve just been looking at a blog from Cider Apple Country, and find there reference to people who call themselves the “Mahdi”, or guided one. When such a person arises, the situation cries out for someone like General Gordon or Lord Kitchener, not to mention Lance-Corporal Jones.

      But have not many of our Western leaders, especially since 2000, deserved the title “the Misguided One”?

      There is a precedent, in the nickname Æthelred the Unready, or Æthelred II, King of the English between 978–1013 and 1014–1016. However, “Unready” is a mistranslation of the Old English word unræd meaning bad-counselled, which should not be translated as “unprepared”, but rather “ill-advised”.

      • Hi

        Well I guess it would be “Cameron the chillaxed” and Theresa “the unprepared for brexit” .

  • IanCad

    Surely not! Couldn’t be! But did they not refer to that golden mantra of the left – climate change – as a “Belief”? Always understood it to be an undeniable fact.
    Someone slipped up there. Look for an edit.

  • HedgehogFive

    Jeremy Corbyn’s vegetarianism is not the only thing in which he reminds me of Stafford Cripps. Here is a quote from his Wikipedia biography:

    In 1946 Soviet jet engine designers approached Stalin with a request to buy jet designs from Western sources to overcome design difficulties. Stalin is said to have replied: “What fool will sell us his secrets?” However, [Stafford Cripps] gave his assent to the proposal, and Soviet scientists and designers travelled to the United Kingdom to meet Cripps and request the engines. To Stalin’s amazement, Cripps and the Labour government were perfectly willing to provide technical information on the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine designed by RAF officer Frank Whittle, along with discussions of a licence to manufacture Nene engines. The Nene engine was promptly reverse-engineered and produced in modified form as the Soviet Klimov VK-1 jet engine, later incorporated into the MiG-15 which flew in time to deploy in combat against UN forces in North Korea in 1950, causing the loss of several B-29 bombers and cancellation of their daylight bombing missions over North Korea.

    Corbyn seems congenitally incapable of imagining that certain foreigners might be up to no good.

    • Dreadnaught

      Sounds like par for the course with today’s Labour policy on wanting May to disclose details of the Trident test.

      • Maalaistollo

        And did not Rolls-Royce supply Kestrel aero-engines for the prototype Junkers Stukas? Have not the Americans supplied military equipment to ‘moderate’ jihadis in Syria? The west appears to be afflicted by terminal stupidity.

        • Dreadnaught

          And did not Rolls-Royce supply Kestrel aero-engines for the prototype Junkers
          That is true in a sense, but before the outbreak of war in a commercial deal for four engines in an exchange for test-bed technology from Messerchmitt and not in the knowledge of the intention to build an attack bomber.
          As for your second point I fail to see the significance of what you say in relation to my comment on Trident.
          Your third, I am in agreement.

          • Maalaistollo

            Sorry – the second point related to the original post by HedgehogFive.

          • Dreadnaught

            No probs.

        • Anton

          See Antony Sutton’s book The best enemy money can buy.

        • The Explorer

          “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we shall hang them.” Attributed to Lenin.

  • I think they are confusing beliefs with lifestyle choices. That list is nothing more than the opinions of those in the quango that made it up. And to think huge amounts of tax payers money goes into groups to invent drivel like this.

    • David

      Nicely put !

  • len

    I have admiration for veggies.Tried a veggie diet myself once and it made me feel quite ill(not knowing enough about nutrition I suppose?)
    I suppose the moral about diverse religions and belief systems is that If you don`t believe in the God of the Bible you will not believe in nothing but anything.

    • Anton

      I’ve done a veggie Lent. No problem. I just like meat. The Bible regards that as normal.

    • Inspector General

      It was eating grass that made you ill, Len. One has childhood memories of a local cat that did that. For some reason best known to the cat…

      • len

        Cats use grass as an emetic. Cannot say I have ever tried it myself

        • Pubcrawler

          It works, too.

          • len

            Lol

    • ChaucerChronicle

      Sir

      I admire you: you’re the only case I’ve read who has speared vegetarians and digested them.

  • Dominic Stockford

    It is ridiculous, and the EHRC should know this. By saying that vegetarianism is a belief that should be protected under the law they also have to accept that omnivorism is also a belief that should be protected under the law. So in the end, whatever view on eating you have should be protected under the law. So we’re back to where we started before the law got involved – some people do one thing, some people do another, and we all get along together.

    • ChaucerChronicle

      Not so fast Mr Stockford.

      Where vegetarianism and omnivorism clash – one must triumph over the other.

      This produces what is known as the ‘hierarchy of diversity’.

  • mmac1968

    This organisation is represented by ten women, with back grounds in human rights or someother laudable and fashionable victim organisation. There is one gentleman from Stonewall, one paraplegic and one ethic minority. No one appears to represent the Christian faith directly or any other religion. I have no doubt this is why so many Christians find themselves on the wrongside of their decisions, because they no longer matter.

  • True, the oceans will now rise and the polar bears will drown. Filthy creatures, those “cute” white-furred grizzlies, btw; one killed and ate a comrade trucker when he stepped out of his cab a few years ago, right in the town of Churchill. There’s more of them now than ever, and you can see them near garbage containers in some communities by Hudson Bay. Easier to feed on tossed McDonalds fries than to wait for seals, for hours, near a breathing hole.

    Wow! Congrats on Sam’s aliyah! Are they doing the full ulpan? Where do they want to settle? I hope work will turn up…the main complaint from friends who recently made aliyah.

    • Hi Avi,

      Yes , poor majestic polar bears, who are like any other bear and will forage for whatever food it can get a McDonald’s included. A couple of years ago there was talk cloning woolly mammoths , so we could clone mammoths for the polar bears to eat.. that’d produce an interesting mint of moral philosophy.

      • We can make the discussion more interesting by cloning Cromagnon types to hunt both!

    • Hi Avi

      They are living with family in the Negv, but hope to live in Eilat. plan A was for Sam to commute from Israel to the UK and stay at hotel Hannah’s place for the week , whilst Dom looked for work in Israel. However they’ve gone to the IDF as required of Olim and want to serve in the IDF. They are exempt from compulsory service , because of martial status/ disability and in bros case being early 30s , but can volunteer. So they’re waiting for an answer for their volunteering and what they can do , e.g. disabled people can join various IDF programs in non combat roles and Sam’s, like me, a seasoned veteran of English boarding school. . my family’s understanding of the halacha is that it requires both men and women, if in Israel to serve in a milchemet mitzvah, even if that’s a support role to combat soldiers. .

      They are quite stubborn when they make their minds up and my sister Esther also served , as have uncles and cousins so we will see.

  • betteroffoutofit

    Indeed I am sorry about the dear animals! However, for some reason I need meat. Further, though, even when we eat plants we take the lives of others.

    The solution? Grace – before meals is our long-established custom. We thank God for the food and the sacrifice. For my part, I also thank those who supply my needs, and I trust that God will reward them.

    • ChaucerChronicle

      How can we possibly allow that poor little lamb in the photo to be slaughtered?

      I guess we’re all guilty.

      • Pubcrawler

        How indeed? Let it grow up and get some flavour into its meat first.

        • Agreed! Some of us prefer good, almost-gamey mutton to something that tastes like mild chicken.

          • ChaucerChronicle

            Can’t you see the innocence in that lamb’s face?

          • Pubcrawler

            Innocence? It has the eyes of a killer!

          • Hi

            Like killer rabbits?

          • Pubcrawler

            Exactly!

          • ChaucerChronicle

            Why what harm has the poor creature done?

          • Pubcrawler

            Just look at the eyes!

          • ChaucerChronicle

            I’ve looked, and I’ve looked. I can’t bear to see ‘those’ eyes.

          • ChaucerChronicle

            He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

            4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

            5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

            6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

            7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

            8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

          • My grandpa taught to to eat the eyes off roasted lamb when I was a kid. Unbelievably tasty…though I don’t think I’d have it in me to eat one now without retching.

          • Pubcrawler

            I’ve suddenly lost my appetite.

          • But wait, there’s more! He had me eating whole sardine heads and tails…all for the amusement of our extended family, I suspect. But I did get good amounts of calcium at a time when milk was scarce and could be bought only with coupons at government milk dispensaries.

          • carl jacobs

            Well, now. That explains the whole salted herring thing. You were scarred as a child. The herring is just a plea for help.

          • Pubcrawler

            You think he needs some form of herring aid?

          • carl jacobs

            Worse. He probably needs extensive counseling. This is trauma of an entirely different scale.

          • Pubcrawler

            Let’s not skate around it. Only the piece of cod can restore his sole. This is the thyme, and this is the plaice.

          • Wouldn’t do any good, Carl. His futures Bleak. Bad case of Jewfish. Yellow Jack should be consulted. Electric Ray treatment may be his only hope. It’s that or the Ghouls. Whoever cures him deserves an Oscar.

          • carl jacobs

            That post should warrant a charge of assault on the English language.

          • You’re sounding like an Oldwife ….

          • A plea for crowd-sourced funds, perhaps. You should see what the stuff costs in delis. To give you an idea, I can swallow seven dollars’ worth in one gulp, if I apply myself.

          • It’s food, you’re getting too emotional. Get a grip.

          • ChaucerChronicle

            How could you possibly think of erasing innocence?

            You’re as guilty as me.

          • Inspector General

            It’s going to be lamb shank at the Inspector’s after next food shop. All welcome…

          • Pubcrawler

            Will it be a vibrant, enriching gathering to put the cathedral’s latest efforts at outreach to shame?

          • Inspector General

            Sort of. It will be shank veneration. A near religious experience, surly…

          • Pubcrawler

            Don’t call me Shirley.

          • 1642again

            To prevent a recurrence I recommend that all Cathedrals install a herd of pigs in their Close. Pigs are intelligent, cheerful animals, and are hence offensive to ROPers, and the resulting income would defray the cost of running the building.

          • Pubcrawler

            Yes. Far better pigs in the Close than troughers in the Chapter.

          • Hahahahaha!

          • Inspector General

            Livestock were brought into the church at times of distress, at least in Gloucestershire. A simple life dependant on the land then. One envies them to a degree…

          • A simple life dependant on the land then. One envies them to a degree…

            Until, that is, one needs a fresh pack of smokes, a warm pub with a cold beer, and a reasonably clean loo one can sit on and flush afterwards.

          • 1642again

            Forget the smokes, but a warm pub with proper slightly cool beer, and very clean loos!

          • Plus they will be at hand when an exorcism takes place.

  • Dreadnaught

    While on the subject of ‘beliefs’ I take it to include Political Feminism and Wimmins rights etc such as – well you name it they will protest it females, that were duped into demonstrating primarily in the US of their dissaproval of Trump’s Presidency, But that alone still doesn’t explain why demonstraions in the UK also took place other than an excuse for a jolly hockeysticks Girlies’ day out protesting …………… …………………. fill in the blank with your gripe of choice Girls.
    However, when certain individuals in Trafalgar Square were gently put on the spot to explain,they seemed to be at a loss of what they were actually protesting about.
    Check out this short vid that validates the point.

    https://www.thenewbrit.co.uk/single-post/2017/01/21/Womens-March-on-London

    • Anton

      Yes, it’s like that letter that goes

      Dear Sir

      I wish to protest most strongly about everything.

      Yours sincerely…

      • Dreadnaught

        Made flesh as you may say.

      • Yours faithfully …
        We must try to set Carl a good lesson.

    • Very interesting, and we were told that people who voted for Trump were ‘uneducated morons’.

      • Dreadnaught

        Well…quite!

    • Anton

      “What are you rebelling against?”

      “Whaddya got?”

  • Inspector General

    The best time to do it is when the EHRC is grazing peacefully in a field. Lead it into the shed, and then here’s the good bit – you take a very sharp knife and cut its throat. Then, tie a rope to its heels and hoist it up. Put a bucket underneath to catch the blood. Voila! Halal EHRC. You can’t get much more equalities than that…and your pets get to eat the genitals. Tasty!

  • 1642again

    There was a good one on R5 this morning. A feminist complaining about men, patriarchy, and said she intervened when a drunk man made some comments on a train to some women. He then clearly started on here (all reprehensible of course) and then she started to complain that no men on the train had rushed in to defend her! Talk about cognitive dissonance!

    • Anton

      Trump has just defunded organisations in receipt of US government cash that promote abortion worldwide. Hallelujah!

      • 1642again

        The Feminazis’ heads will explode!

        • David

          ’twill make a dreadful mess !

      • Inspector General

        Praise be!

      • not a machine

        well its sorts into charity ,at least rather than forceable charity, but stay out of debate given friendly rape stats/mode of life

        • Anton

          Would you clarify your meaning, please?

          • not a machine

            yes

          • Anton

            Thank you! I await…

          • not a machine

            I cant really make it any better than I typed ,you either have doubts about forced charity or you dont

          • Anton

            Forced charity is an oxymoron.

    • David

      Having cake and eating it !

  • Anton

    That’s your brother, who has been posting here? He’s gone to live in eretz Israel?

    • Hi Anton

      I have 6 siblings , yes I’m referring to Sam.

      • Anton

        Hope he keeps posting here. God wants Jews there but so far as I am concerned Jews are most welcome in the UK.

  • 1642again

    Looks like the US Embassy moving to Jerusalem, TPP scrapped, NAFTA leaving process about to start, lefties fretting about scrapping pro-LGBT executive orders passed by Obozo…

    • Ivan M

      Drumpfenfuehrer has hit the ground running.

  • IrishNeanderthal

    This should make for some interesting reading: an essay Tolstoy and the Cult of Simplicity by G.K.Chesterton (1903).

    Also, this video Peace On Earth (1939) Classic Christmas Cartoon (8 min 50 sec). Quite soon into it, see the issue over which the war was fought which marked the end of the human race on Earth.

    • Inspector General

      Any mention of the child Tolstoy immorally had with a ‘serf’…

  • not a machine

    The Equalities and Human rights commission is a good example of something with a limited remit ,growing like knotweed in the whole garden.However it has perhaps created something that attempts to define things by law , and no doubt makes sense to some ,but it has some very questionable grasps of the correct end of consequence.So it is an unfortunate thing in life ,that at times people fail , people do bad things , and things that should be better are not ,the EHRC is perhaps some sort of cleaning product that makes you want it, by a before and after scenario image , you know this was half my before , but now with new EHRC its like this , with just one swish of the mop., cue slightly amazed response ,you mean just one wipe of EHRC can clean all that,thats amazing. Well not quite a vegan can live there life perfectly well ,they are free to buy and eat what they like , but surely if the vegan has choice so does the non vegan in what they eat bar cannibalism.
    So the EHRC does not recognize in defining one the defining of its opposite of personal lawful choice , I say lawful as it is quite obvious that some ways of behavior are not lawful.The problem is also in the prescription in that it is to cure an illness , so it becomes a little loaded.
    I have often wondered if the ECRH is not some sort of companion to the ECHR , (European Court of Human rights) to imply and be legal authority in aspects of socialism or eradication of any thinking against it .
    But then they would say , if we don’t have it what should replace it , which assumes destruction of something that life could not do without and that anything new would have to resemble it , as it was the right thing first off.
    But you have to have lived , be in your middle age to understand or remember what things were like before we were injected forcefully , with the sort of stuff off the EHRC and I have to admit some of it wasn’t very nice ,but basically you fought your own patch.You might well have looked upon the state of the 1970s working class as painfully lost,I once a union leader contest that was more brutal than what I had seen in a drunken fight at a pub.So if you are saying the EHRC has changed the brutality in some aspects of life .I perhaps would agree.But it offers a condom where perhaps it was just a matter of improved education , so bizzarely whilst some refused the improvement of education , they took on board the EHRC as perhaps it was leftist or some sort of home for protection of non leftist views , ergo becoming sort of parental..
    Imagine this scenario , my gym teacher used to put you in the boxing ring ,if you were a bully , which made a number of points to a young mind ,one being you get beat , and that it didn’t make you a man to beat the defenceless,he also made the slowest runners do an extra lap , which seemed to select overweight people , but you might think that had a good lesson somewhere. Good behavior had its reward and so did bad behavior , and you made yer mind up , which you thought would work and education in its own way. I can imagine internet meltdown ,if you had that in education today.
    But it does qualify me to be able to make a comparison ,good and bad behavior need motivators ,inputs if you are to work at sorting them out to make people that are good adults , it does not happen because you create a government body ,that talks perfection , but cant even point out its own limits .
    yes you have to have rules ,but it takes time to get them to an adult level .and perhaps a lifetime once adult to consider them.
    The medical opt out of life is always there as is the lazy one , or the cruel and wrong , the EHRC has stopped none of these ills of life , but it does show any of its selections for show , in the wrong assumption it has waved a wand and changed the world.There is then the complete farce of a person living well off the EHRC , being found to be no better than the rest of us , as though the rules don’t apply.
    At best the EHRC is there to address the worst ,but living by it ,is just a leftist impossible task to me .

    “allo allo” Thanks Gordon kaye and all the rest for some of the best laughs I ever had ,including Grandma with the flashing bedknobs and general von Klinkerhoffen (a gag you only would know if you had a coal fire in the house)

    • 1642again

      Scrap all equality legislation. Restrict immigration. Leave it to the market. Make employers compete for labour. Job done.

      • not a machine

        I don’t know if rule by tweet character limit , would cause a mass cull of all political bodies,we have to make adults ,so you need a understanding of growing as well as pruning

        • 1642again

          ?????

          • not a machine

            Not disagree with you , perhaps pondering if you need something in its place

          • 1642again

            If employers have to compete for scarce labour they will treat labour better. Basic economics. You can still have unfair dismissal legislation.

          • Royinsouthwest

            In geographical areas of high unemployment employers could get away with treating labour badly. That even applies in areas of low unemployment if there are certain occupations with far more qualified applicants than there are vacancies.

          • 1642again

            Fair points Roy, but there are two things to address that:

            1. an active regional policy with low taxes/rates in deprived areas to encourage businesses to set up there.
            2. specific sector labour supply-demand imbalances. Leave it to the market t adjust to meet demand. Far too many people want to be actors, musicians, broadcasters etc. Should we pass preferential treatment laws for people wanting to make a living in these areas? Of course not.

          • Jack thinks he’s suggesting these bodies suffer from verbosity.

    • Inspector General

      The ECHR and EHRC both need to go. Both ghastly Orwellian entities. There is nothing they do which is not covered by British law. The fairest in the world. It really is as simple as that…

      • Anton

        I think you mean English Law. There is no such thing as British Law.

        • Inspector General

          English Law is effectively British law…

          • CliveM

            No it ain’t. Scotland has a separate legal system, guaranteed by the Act of Union.

  • The Explorer

    Doing okay, heart issues excepted. How’s my favourite Hannah?

    • Hi Explorer,

      Sorry to hear that your heart still isn’t right. Hugs from me!

      I thought that your analogy was very clever : in a conflict between two protected rights groups , who will win and which is the elk and which rhue bear?

      I’m o.k.. Bro Sam has made Aliyah , but not before he helped to fit a new aubergine and cream kitchen . I’ve got my blog , my partner as a mature student , suffers from antisemitic snowflakes at uni and I’m overseeing her business , still helping out at the family biz and my own. The Labradors are as excitable as ever. Long walks , at least twice a day required. Managed to smash my glasses and have super glued them together, waiting for some new ones.

      Trying to write my sci fi, but need a muse. I think everyone got confused with my idea of “exo wombs “, a drink made by a race of grumpy extra terrestrial Lagomorphs , which tastes of whatever alcoholic beverage you want and leaves no hangover or liver damage & my theoretical binary/ lagrange star system , the”spaghetti junction of inter stellar space “.

  • ” [L]ife-style beliefs are, in fact, akin to religious belief”

    “Naturism is a way of life in harmony with nature characterised by the practice of communal nudity with the intention of encouraging self-respect, respect for others and for the environment.”

    People of the world, you have nothing to lose but your clothes!

    Jack would not want to walk down wind of a naked vegan.

    • Anton

      Thankfully we are too far north for much of that nonsense.

  • Methinks they were a tad off the derech and the hung out with Rastas most of the time.

  • chefofsinners

    The law, in its wisdom, allows discrimination, so long as it is not against a protected characteristic.
    If you say “I’m not sacking you because you’re a one legged vegetarian lesbian. It’s because you’re ugly”, there’s no crime.

    • Good job she’s not a naturalist or you would be in trouble.

    • ChaucerChronicle

      The sacking is a civil (employment) law issue and not criminal.

      Intention is not required to be established is such a situation. Acts of commission and ommision are inquired into.

  • … 😇

  • NortyNina

    Gosh it’s a big subject you have raised here, your Grace. And a can of worms too. The purpose of the ECHR is to facillitate multi-culturalism. To investigate and state the reasons for multiculturalism has recently been made illegal.
    Imagine the demographic of a nation as a circle, where the area within a circle represents a single united people.
    Then draw two lines in the circle from the centre to the perimeter to create a segment within the circle, describing, let’s say, one degree of arc. The segment represents a part of the demographic that considers themselves to be a separate culture from the rest of the coicle, with no intention of becoming a part of the rest of the circle.
    That demographic would stand out a bit, wouldn’t it.
    Then divide the circle equally with four more lines to create four equal segments, and divide those four in two to create eight, then again to create sixteen, and so on.
    Each segment represents a different demographic, one will be gay people, another feminists, another will be Eskimo’s, and so on.
    Then the one degree of arc segment will not stick out so much.
    That is multi-culturalism, and has been rolled out across Europe and the United States.
    The intention is to to make every nation multi-cultural.
    All except for one.

    • 1642again

      And let us guess which one that might be? One in which the US embassy is moving to Jerusalem perhaps?

      This is a dog that keeps returning to it’s vomit.

    • ChaucerChronicle

      NortyNina Augur Mayson
      7 months ago
      I must check out your cute dogs comments. 🙂
      One thing I like to do on other blogs (using a different i/d) is to post a single comment from a non WN source that reveals what Jews are really like, or what they are really saying, in order to break through the facade that pro-jew commenters like to create, just to sow a kernel of doubt among the non-jewish commenters.

    • William Lewis

      Ooh Nina. You are a tease with your mathematical descriptions of cultural divisions and demographics. Are we supposed to work out the final solution for ourselves or will you be providing it?

      • Anton

        She’s conflating cultures and subcultures. Islam is a culture that is colonising the West. Gay is a subculture within Western culture. And the country she is hinting at offers votes to its largest minority living within certain areas, and has sizeable gay and feminist subcultures.

    • It’s all a Jewish-Jesuit-Masonic plot instigated by Lizards.

      • 1642again

        So what are the ‘greys’ up to then Jack?

        • Jack could tell you but then he’d have to silence you.

          • 1642again

            So the Vatican’s in on it is it? Those fiendish old secrets!

          • There may or may not be an “understanding” with some Vatican leaders who may or may not have been set in place by them.

          • len

            The Vatican’s behind every evil plot, and the Popes an alien.Don`t tell Jack though hes not ready for that sort of information.

      • IrishNeanderthal

        Are you sure they’re not Sea Devils (Doctor Who, 1972)? Those are amphibians, though, not lizards, and they are in league with The Master.

        I wonder, even, if they might be related to the intelligent salamanders in Karel Čapek’s War with the Newts.

        • Please be serious. This is not a matter for humour.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            Sorry. That question should have been addressed to NortyNina herself.

          • Jack was just pulling your leg.

        • Hi

          Jon pertwee was cool as Dr who. And the master better as a man , rather than a woman. The “sea devils” were one of the ingenious original inhabitants of earth about the time of dinosaurs.. It’s a theme star trek voyager took on and something I’m interested in as well…

      • len

        Aliens are everywhere Jack , get that tin foil hat on….

    • Shadrach Fire

      There is but one God and all people are one under him.

    • Hi

      “The intention is to to make every nation multi-cultural.
      All except for one.”

      Do explain….

  • Dreadnaught

    Sounds a bit far fetched that a muslim woman could pull of the organisation of a Woman’s march without the approval if not the direction of the men that run Hamas.
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265552/anti-semite-who-organized-womens-march-washington-john-perazzo

  • michaelkx

    why do we have or need quangos? if we have a parliament that goes with the will of the people? ( no don’t laugh it not kind to mock the inflicted) this is a genuine question I am asking.

  • Dreadnaught

    Those who value the hard work that has built the reputation of this Blog should show their appreciation for its integrity by IGNORING TROLLS and not responding to them, even with what they think is humour or dismissive engagement.

    • len

      There will be a plethora of trolls otherwise disrupting every thread each with a multiple identity morphing all the time.
      Don’t feed the Trolls!.

  • len

    Killing a lamb is an emotive subject.To me at least?.