Jo Cox 2
Democracy

The assassination of Jo Cox, the attribution of blame and the politicisation of horror

 

By all accounts, Jo Cox was a wonderful, gifted human being: a beautiful wife, a loving mother, a dedicated humanitarian and a talented politician. She was clearly destined for higher and greater things: what they were, we shall now never know. Her assassination (we’re not hearing that word very much, for some reason) just a few days before her 42nd birthday has shocked the whole country and distressed the democratic world. Politicians have paid their tributes, journalists have written their eulogies, and little bunches of flowers wrapped in cellophane are being placed around the war memorial in the centre of Birstall in her constituency. People who never knew her suddenly feel they did, and the heartbreak of a husband and two children has become the pain of us all. Parliament is sickened, a political family is bereaved, and a nation is in mourning.

Perhaps we ought to leave it there. Just sit in cyber-candlelight and silent vigil and do as Jo Cox would have wanted us to do and what her husband has asked: bathe her precious children in love, and unite to fight against the hatred that killed her.

But…

‘MP dead after attack by Brexit gunman’, writes the odious Daily Star. Don’t worry: nobody with a brain cell reads that rag. Yet then we get: “Nigel Farage isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s murder. And nor is the Leave campaign. But…”, writes Alex Massie in the valued Spectator, with the most damning ‘but’ in the history of the magazine. And then a brief thesis from EU Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos: “Jo Cox murdered for her dedication to European democracy and humanity. Extremism divides and nourishes hatred..” And with this, you begin to see how the laudable fight against hatred becomes a fight against what some people hate, and evil becomes all that is disagreeable or contentious. Brexit? Good Lord, no, not now. It is driven by the demons of prejudice, hatred and bigotry. Jo Cox was for Remain, and we must honour her memory by voting to remain. It is what she would have wanted.

In the wake of the Orlando massacre, the Rev’d Canon Gavin Ashenden observed the rush to use that horror for political ends: “The public space suddenly became full of different groups drawing lessons from it that supported their agendas,” he observed. “It’s understandable, but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It reduces the human lives lost to statistics for arguments.”

Perhaps we ought to leave it there.

Jo Cox is dead, and death is the enemy of mankind. For a wife and mother to die so young and leave two children seems so utterly unfair that we might well cry out to God for justification. We won’t get it, of course: He truculently exempts himself from the creeds of civility and the canons of fair behaviour. And in the chill of that disdain, some will spy religious extremism, and some the hatred of humanity. You may insist that God is love, but the eye of Caligula looks down from the throne and damns us with sickness and unbearable agonies. God isn’t responsible for Jo Cox’s assassination. And nor is the Church. But…

  • john in cheshire

    This might sound crass but my thoughts are if your wife has just been murdered wouldn’t you have more pressing things to concern yourself with rather than taking to Twitter to exhort people to fight against some nebulous hate? Got me that was a strange thing to do.

    • Stig

      I don’t think that is strange at all! When you lose someone (I have experience) you want to stand up for what they were, to support their principles in their place and do your best to carry on the things they were doing and that they fought for. That way they will not have died in vain. That way their influence will live on. He also wants to surround their children with love, that’s the same principle. To bring them up as their mum would have done.

  • magnolia

    I think the culprit, sadly, is, yet again, the lack of psychiatric beds.

    It appears he showed a cluster of psychiatric disorders: at the least sociopathy and obsessive compulsive disorder. A man who feels detached from society and cleans himself with brillo pads doesn’t represent mainstream or even fringe anyone, not even those with whom I radically disagree…..

    It’s just enormously sad, and even also for this man who is now needlessly a murderer, and his family.

    MPs’ security does need looking at, and maybe particularly at surgery times.

    Our prayers and love will be with all the family.

    • Inspector General

      Mags. One of the less attractive traits of a woman’s mind is how she is able to abdicate the responsibility of another fellow by proxy. “It wasn’t him – he couldn’t help it, poor chap. The Mental Health services did for Jo” This is most noticeable when it concerns a son.

      You see, one has always considered that ladies don’t fully appreciate when a man is just plain obnoxious and evil. Which goes a long way to explain why many women have seven bells knocked out of them at home. Don’t you think?

      • magnolia

        No, I don’t. Actually all his neighbours thought he was a quiet inoffensive man who helped them with their gardens and looked after his granny and mother. It is more complex than we like to think, sometimes. However we have professionals whose job it is to assess the peculiarities of such minds, who go deeper than the impressions of neighbours and passers-by (unless they are gifted with unusual intuitive powers by the Holy Spirit), and keep tabs on them for us all, lest they either self-harm or harm others. This is the main criterion used in deciding whether someone is sectioned or not, not some vaporous emotional thing I pulled out of thin air………

        The system is considered, and good, and usually works to some degree. The system is not a total ass. When there is a slip-up, as here, as in Thomas Hamilton, too, I believe, we all notice it.

        • Inspector General

          One is reminded of a quiet inoffensive Austrian who set his heart on being accepted by the Vienna School of Art…

          • Cressida de Nova

            He was a very competent painter and should have been accepted by the Academy. This discriminatory act was a contributing factor to the wholesale destruction of people, which everyone seems to ignore. There are far reaching consequences for abuse of power and discrimination.

          • Inspector General

            His ability as a painter has been debated, of course, and experts have found little to no merit in his work. He was denied access because he was unable to improve. He had nothing there to improve…

          • Cressida de Nova

            Experts found no merit in the works of Van Gogh either. He did not sell one painting in his life time. Hitler was a monster but that is not a reason to condemn his work as well. Many artists know he could paint….it is just not politically correct to admit it.

          • Inspector General

            The NAZIs were keen to suppress two ideas about the fuhrer. First. That he looked good on horseback. Second, that he was a painter of exceptionable merit. In both cases, photographic evidence and of course the very paintings existed at the time to show the very opposite…

        • >>>It is more complex than we like to think, sometimes.<<<

          Couldn't agree more. A bit of quiet reflection all round might be a good thing. All persons of good will are going to need a lot of energy to start repairing the poisonous atmosphere I sorrowfully expect on the 24th June and subsequently.

  • steroflex

    And yes virtue signalling. Blame. Political capital. All very unpleasant reactions.
    Dare I ask? Is being an MP the right thing for a mother of a three year old and a five year old to do? I am sure they enjoyed the thrill of living on a houseboat (think of the risks though) and also seeing their Mum return at week-ends if she didn’t have anything more important on.
    She was a woman who took enormous risks in very dangerous parts of the world. When it came down to it, though, she was too unskilled and physically weak to separate two angry men, one of whom was mad and armed. She would have done better to have phoned the police.
    And what was the madman doing with a gun? Was it licensed?
    This raises some very unfashionable questions indeed. Young mums ought to be respected for what they are. Never mind all the political bit.
    A three year old and a five year old have been deprived of the one person in their lives who can never be replaced. Ever.

    • magnolia

      Wise after the event or what? At least, if she was attempting to stop a fight she had the guts to do something. Maybe she tried and didn’t get it 100% spot on. But who does? Big burly guys can also fail. Life is not always like it is in the movies! Maybe she DID ‘phone the police. Anyone know she didn’t? They can take a while coming you know.

      Seems they had their family life well sorted to everyone’s satisfaction, up until a random and unpredictable event. Who are we to pontificate exactly? “Never mind all the political bit”; how patronising.

      “Older men should be respected for who they are. Never mind trying to understand what mothers do and are and tell them how to live their lives.” How would that sound to you?

      Ah….thought not…

      • steroflex

        I have been convinced of your point of view all my life. What is the difference (as a priest told me) between a man and a woman but a small flap of skin?
        When my grandson was born, however, I began to see the difference. Super parents – Dad and Mum. But when the little chap fell over, it had to be kissed better by Mum. I watched the Dad’s face carefully. He loved dandling the little chap on his knee, but otherwise he had his “looking after Mum” face on.
        Grannies loved the baby and were protective and warm and cuddly.
        Granddads were not interested at all in babies. But when the little chap grew to toddler age all of us – including me – turned into toddlers too. Grannies did not. They remained as they were.
        Please don’t bother with further argument. The older I get the more convinced that men and women are very different in their capabilities. For example parish visiting is very hard for lady priests. For example male priests are not as good with little children.
        Just watch and see if I am right.

    • IanCad

      Children need their mums. Constituents need their MPs.
      Both are full time jobs and any attempt to serve each is a disservice to both.

      • magnolia

        Why not take it further?

        How is this for a try?

        “Young children need their mums so much that no mother of young children should hold any opinion other than which nappies and soft toys are best, let alone voice them. Nor should they take the risk of walking through the park in broad daylight lest a mentally insane gunman who isn’t very keen on women should take a pop at her, thus depriving said children of their mother, who should be in the kitchen baking innumerable biscuits for school fairs.

        All clearly appropriate and timely advice given these tragic circumstances.”

        i prefer real life.

        • IanCad

          Magnolia,
          You are expanding upon my post beyond all reasonableness.

          • magnolia

            It was deliberate. I was merely seeing how far the logic went, or how far you permit it to go. This then gets us back to the realisation that actually other people can make their own responsible decisions in their own families. I don’t think how they chose to live their lives or allocate responsibilities is our business, nor should be up for public discussion, especially now. Being in a political family does not take away all your rights to a little bit of privacy, and we should be considering the bereaved and the children’s needs.

        • Phil R

          It seems it is not just the left and remain that are making political capital from this sad event.

          Also

          “their mother, who should be in the kitchen baking innumerable biscuits for school fairs”

          Biscuits? Not any more. It is all nut and fruit bars and green smoothies or berry tea

          Biscuits are definitely out. No mum nowadays, would bring biscuits for primary age kids to eat.

          Think of the calories and the toxins!

    • Inspector General

      Everybody is in fine agreement on what a wonderful woman she was – then thee and me turn up…

  • Politically__Incorrect

    As with the Orlando tradegy, mischievous minds will try to make political capital out of the actions of a deranged individual. Whatever Jo Cox’s killer may have shouted as he pulled the trigger, he was by all accounts a mentally ill person not a political activist. Those who try to blend this senseless crime with political mud to be thrown at whichever campaign they dislike not only reveal their lack of sensitivity and falsely smear others, but they detract from the normal and necessary process of grieving over a senseless killing.

    When Jesus heard that Lazarus had died, he didn’t eulogise, he didn’t politicise, he didn’t even say his thoughts were with the relatives and friends. He simply wept.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Yes.

  • IanCad

    “Jo Cox was for Remain, and we must honour her memory by voting to remain. It is what she would have wanted.”

    And so, we must keep silence for, to do otherwise, would appear unseemly.
    Hogwash!! Whilst condemning the deed, and mourning for the family, the liberty of our nation must be at front and centre of our endeavours in the last few (remaining?) days of opportunity in which to renounce the EU.

  • David

    That Jo Cox is dead saddens me as does the death of any human being, but the way the media is covering this strikes me as a load of aristos of the ancien regime squealing over the fact that they are mortal.

  • CliveM

    To many conclusions are being jumped to with regards the motivation for this attack. At least initially there appears to be some ambiguity as to whether she was the target, or simply became involved because she tried to calm a situation. We don’t know if the killer is mentally ill or malicious.

    Silence all round would be better. We don’t need to ape the media or trust what it’s saying. They have copy to sell and angles to push.

    • magnolia

      Except that he is quoted from years back self-describing as mentally ill, and also his brother recently is quoted as saying the same. Hard to see how it might not be so when it is straight from the horse’s mouth.

    • dannybhoy

      I agree Clive. There is an awful amount of sanctimonious ‘gush’ being displayed (again.)
      This is a tragic, tragic loss of a conscientious and effective MP, wife and mother. Our hearts go out to her husband and children. The guy who took her life would appear to be a loner with mental health problems.
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

      • CliveM

        If that odious woman Polly Toynbee has decided to leap onto the bandwagon, surely that should be a lesson to all of us.

  • David

    The only rational, compassionate and level-headed response is to keep a dignified silence.
    Those who attempt to callously make political capital our of this merely reveal their desperation and their low morality.
    I do note however that the assassin was suffering mental disorders. Moreover I ask the question whether this vile act must be understood in the context of psychiatry being the cinderella section of the NHS.
    However this is not the time for such inquiries which should come later, after a period of respectful and dignified silence.

  • PessimisticPurple

    In my experience, people are not so easily fooled as journalists like to think they are. They know when a corpse is being used to make political capital and they don’t like it. The polls have been nip-and-tuck on the question of Brexit for the last few weeks. On their face, they seem to be indicating a “leave” victory, but with nothing comparable in British polling history to draw on (the previous referendum was too far back to count) the figures are nebulous. The propensity in other countries of undecideds to vote for the status quo is also an unaddressed factor. I don’t believe this murder will significantly affect the outcome, unless the “remain” side attempt to use it (like the Guardian today) to poison the minds of voters. If you are an “outer”, you should hope they go nuts and do exactly that, because it will drive people right into the “out” lobby.

  • Mock Turtle

    If Remain win by a narrow margin, will those who voted for it ever think “I wonder what the result would have been if we hadn’t exploited the tragic murder of that MP…”

  • len

    ‘Perhaps we ought to leave it there.’ Perhaps we should.

    Does God look down at us dispassionately as we struggle suffer and die? Definitely not.
    We may never understand God (and why should we?) but God suffered and died with us on the Cross at Calvary. Then rose again.
    Having said that it is tragic that this young woman was cut down so cruelly and hate such as that involved in this crime cannot ever be allowed to win and intimidate others into silence and force them to stop trying to improve the lot of those less fortunate than ourselves.

  • carl jacobs

    One man with a knife doesn’t represent anything more than one man with a knife. But politics is a blood sport and the only thing that matters is winning. If opportunity hands a shiv to a politician, that politician will certainly use it to advantage. As dishonorable as that may be. As exploitative as that may be. As contemptible as that may be.

  • Dreadnaught

    As Outrageous and criminal as the murder was; face to face and in broad daylight it is not the first time a public figure has been attacked and even murdered.
    Even Q Victoria was shot at, Airey Neave and Mountbatten blown up and killed; 7/7 almost the entire Maggie Cabinet despatched in the PIRA brighton bombing, a sense of perspective must be maintained. It has happened; it will happen again; it could be anyone at anytime but we must carry on with life as if it is a normal if not an exceptional hazard.

    We will all have personal thoughts as to why, but it is futile and crass to offer causal connection to the working of a deranged mind. Anyone making political capital one way or the other out of this murder is to be despised as an insensitive opportunist.

    In politics ‘a good day to bury bad news’ is still a tool in the spin-doctors box which they will employ to their perceived advantage. The good thing about living at this time is that we have far more access to many varieties of social media that we don’t have to rely on the BBC or Channel 4 or the whims of the Press Barons.

    For what its worth, campaigning must carry on with maybe a little more dignity and pertinent focus and a lot less hysterical crystal-ball gazing.

    Britain is still one of the safest countries in the world and its part of British culture to be stoic in times of adversity or when outraged by events like this.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Louise Mensch the author and former Conservative MP has written a piece about the murder of Jo Cox in which she says it is common for MPs to get death threats, many of them from mentally ill people. She had several such threats herself during the short time she was in the Commons. Her article on the subject is, like Cranmer’s, balanced and readable, unlike those of some journalists both in Britain and abroad who are itching to spread the blame for this appalling incident.

    Jo Cox MP Was the Best of Britain. Politicising Her Death is the Worst
    http://heatst.com/uk/jo-cox-mp-was-the-best-of-britain-politicising-her-death-is-the-worst/

  • Video of the Cox family on the Thames, supporting Geldof’s two-fingered salute to British fishermen, 1:04:40-1:05:50.

  • Anton

    The Spectator is generally good reading. But…

    • Redrose82

      They seemingly have taken the Alex Massie article down. One can only hope that they will pay him off.

      • Pubcrawler

        It’s there right now, with a codicil saying it’s been ‘updated’. But the theme is unchanged.

  • pobjoy

    death is the enemy of mankind

    Only if it is the gate to h*ll.

  • Inspector General

    For those of us who remember the murder of Ian Gow MP by the IRA, the result of the Eastbourne by-election, 1990 came as quite a surprise to everyone.

    That the late Jo Cox campaigned (oh yes, ‘passionately’ as all driven types must do) to subordinate this great country of ours to foreign masters – principally Germany and its neutered French poodle of a lackey – to bring to an end the world influence of our independent decent people, will in no way alter the voting intentions of those of us who appreciate what is probably our last ever opportunity to break free…

    How could it!

    • She campaigned to “subordinate this great country of ours to foreign masters … to bring to an end the world influence of our independent decent people … (to stop us) break(ing) free.”

      Goodness, you make her sound like a dangerous traitor rather than a reasoned politician with a different perspective and vision to yours which can and should be legitimately presented to the voting public.

      • Inspector General

        Oh, right!

        Er, where can one send flowers…

        • “Sometimes rhetoric has consequences.”

          • Inspector General

            It’s a big grown up world out there. Anything could happen…

          • This is true. However, as a Christian (self identified) you’re supposed to spread love and understanding, not hatred and division.

          • Inspector General

            One would say there are well over 50 ‘Tommies’ who hang around the centre of Gloucester. You can spot them from 100 yards. What you don’t do is get involved with them. You call the police. That’s a fully grown man capable of returning a menacing look back to them saying that, not a slip of a girl…

          • len

            The Inspector ‘self identifies’ himself as a follower of something, goodness alone know what?.

      • IanCad

        Any UK subject who would intrigue to subordinate our right of self-determination to the whims of a coterie of European tax eaters is, in my book, a traitor.

        • And what does one do with so called “traitors”? That’s simply the politics of hate.

          • IanCad

            Good Heaven’s Jack. If indeed they are traitors, and assumed to be so by the electorate, that is, if the referendum votes “Out” they will have to amend their former naughty ways or eventually be voted out of office.

          • Good to see you back-peddling. It was you who called her a traitor. An unnecessarily emotive and divisive expression.

          • IanCad

            Not at all Jack, I stand by my previous post.

        • CliveM

          In what way intrigued? She’s campaigned for something I disagree with, but she seems to have done it openly.

          This ‘traitor ‘ rhetoric was used in the Scottish Independence referendum by the Nats. It was nasty.

          What it does tell me is that referendums are brutal and divisive and MP’s should do what they are paid to do and take decisions themselves.

          • IanCad

            Oh Clive, you not the ways of the left. Any student who studies social and political sciences and then goes of to work in the aid industry is almost bound to emerge as a do-gooder socialist. Hell bent on foisting their worldview on lesser mortals.
            Again, I mourn for her family and am horrified at the outrage, but I’m not going to let my guard down, because, for sure, the left will make hay as we politely keep our mouths shut.

          • CliveM

            If they do it will rebound back on them to their loss. I have enough confidence in the majority of this country to believe they would show their disgust.

      • grutchyngfysch

        I don’t think it reflects particularly well on anyone to go out of your way to insult the recently dead, especially in such horrible circumstances. But if all the talk about “democracy” means something, then it must remain legitimate to say that Jo Cox was absolutely wrong in her policies; that while accepting honest motivation, her proposed solutions and her political positions may be described as erroneous, foolish and even immoral. Otherwise we don’t have politics, we have deference.

        • Jack wouldn’t wish to disagree. Hold whatever views choose to and describe Jo Cox’s in whatever ways you wish. However, saying her opinions are “immoral” seems rather inappropriate.

          • grutchyngfysch

            I said that it must remain a legitimate position to describe in the strongest terms political views one opposes. I have no interest in trawling to dredge a specific example to make this point, but I don’t suppose you would find it difficult to find one or two staple progressive policies which you might want to describe as immoral.

        • Merchantman

          These are emotional times and discretion is sometimes the way forward.

    • carl jacobs

      Germany and its neutered French poodle of a lackey

      Heh! [Stands and applauds] Now that’s a good metaphor. Or similie. Or whatever.

      • Inspector General

        Well, do up tick the Inspector, that impressed man…

        • bluedog

          He can’t. He never does. Recognition of genius diminishes his own. It’s an ego thing.

          • CliveM

            That’s simply not true. Or fair. I have received the occasional uptick.

            Making no claim to genius however.

          • bluedog

            If it’s untrue I’m happy to stand corrected. But an uptick for the Inspector would have cost precisely nothing and shown a generosity of spirit.

          • CliveM

            He gave IIG’s comment a ‘glowing’ review, was that not generous?

          • bluedog

            Can’t see the words ‘glowing review’. Yes, there was approval, but the good humoured request for an uptick was met with the cyber equivalent of a cold stare. To what end?

          • CliveM

            My words, describing Carl’s comment. What he said was ‘stands and applauds’ which seems generous to me.

          • bluedog

            But no uptick…

            Which is frankly typical of this blog. Some really excellent posts get zero recognition thanks to the egotistical nature of the other participants. There are exceptions, of course.

          • CliveM

            Well as I said he has given me an uptick or two in the past. Different people use them differently. I think his comment was generous and that at the end of the day is what people will see.

          • carl jacobs

            Thanks Clive. 🙂

          • carl jacobs

            FWIW. I apply a pretty high standard for upvotes. I give them sparingly so that they will mean more. I didn’t upvote the Inspector because in general I have rejected his comments on this subject. I thought the phrase well-spoken, so I called it out instead.

            It’s an ego thing.

            That was ungenerous and unkind. I am free to apply such a standard as I see fit. Others will do the same. There is no concept of entitlement in this matter. There is no common policy of fairness. I give them out not just for good comments but for exceptional comments. I give them out if you make me laugh. I give them out if I wish to associate myself with the opinion. That’s why I upvoted Jack recently when he called out the Inspector on talking about the murdered MP’s politics. I wanted Jack to know I agreed with him.

            It’s not rigorous. Much of it is feel. But it is what it is, and I have no intention of changing it.

          • bluedog

            Fair enough, Carl, each to his own. Thank you for putting your position with such clarity.

    • carl jacobs

      The EU will tear itself to pieces eventually. This is the beginning and not the end.

    • grutchyngfysch

      I honestly thought the decision not to stand candidates against Labour is highly indicative of where we are at. Without in any way detracting from the personal and human tragedy of this murder, what we are seeing is a political class responding in the only way it now knows: by depriving (with the best of intentions) the general public of their agency, and more generally by eroding the principle of moral agency in public debate.

      The only virtue it has is that it spares us the unedifying spectacle of the Commentariat’s innuendo that anyone who might have dared not vote Labour in said by-election would have been implicitly supporting “the Hate”.

      Democracy is not served by the sentimental disposal of debate and contest, nor by insisting that it is somehow the public’s responsibility that MPs are not trusted. Cynicism is an essential pillar of democracy, because it sometimes the only thing that stands between us and the horror of utopia.

      • Inspector General

        Astonishing decision if that be the case. Just goes to show how in bed together these parliamentarians really are. Surely UKIP is above this nonsense…

        • grutchyngfysch

          No they’ve all followed suit Inspector. Lib Dems as well. I don’t actually blame UKIP for not wanting to stick it’s head above the parapet but I wish somebody (Carswell perhaps) could have added some dissent.

          • Inspector General

            You’re right, old chap. This Jo Cox tragedy is poison and if we are not on our best behaviour, how we will suffer…

        • CliveM

          No.

  • Martin

    Interestingly Christ didn’t differentiate between those bringing the sacrifice and killed and those on whom the tower fell. The message is the the same:

    do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others …? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

    So the message to us all from every death is repent while you still can.

  • Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.

    (A Day of Infamy: Alex Massie)

    He has a point.

    • Inspector General

      You don’t…

    • Pubcrawler

      Was he writing about the PLO?

    • len

      As this world grinds on to its inevitable conclusion , as people realise that their options are running out,, as our Godless societies implode,greed and corruption are rife ,many people will ‘snap’.

      2 Timothy;
      ‘3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.’

      Having ‘a form of Godliness’ is a bit puzzling ?.

      These people will say they are’ good people’ they ‘do good’perhaps they went to church, gave to charities. but their actions betray them…

      • Ivan M

        One insane guy on a random killing does not the Apocalypse make.

        • len

          Ever heard Of ISIS? And the rest of the terror groups…

    • bluedog

      Read the Grauniad for all of the above. See what Polly Toynbee posted on 14th June. Note too that the day before her death, Jo Cox’s husband was standing near Bob Geldof with Jo’s two children as Geldof screamed abuse and gesticulated at British fishermen. The death of Jo Cox is incredibly sad and terribly wrong, but she was in the thick of it and tragically paid the ultimate price. Heard anything from Geldof?

      • Polly T’s comments are too one sided, in Jack’s opinion. Both sides have been going over the top in the debate. This did strike Jack as pertinent:

        Democracy is precious and precarious. It relies on a degree of respect for the opinions of others, soliciting support for political ideas without stirring up undue savagery and hatred against opponents …

        Something close to a chilling culture war is breaking out in Britain, a divide deeper than I have ever known, as I listen to the anger aroused by this referendum campaign. The air is corrosive, it has been rendered so. One can register shock at what has happened, but not complete surprise.

        • pobjoy

          Democracy is precious and precarious.

          And Catholics hover, like vultures.

          • Hmm … well, someone has to be ready to pick up the reigns when it all collapses.

          • bluedog

            ‘Reins’

          • Oooops …. Freudian slip!

          • pobjoy

            The Nazis were half-educated thugs.

          • Ivan M

            Too simplistic. von Braun put man on the moon. Speer may well have been the greatest exponent of war economy of them all. There were thousands more. Which is why they could fight on for so long on, and so doggedly on all fronts. Not that I care to blow their horns.

          • bluedog

            Yes, it’s a curious statement. Would well-educated thugs be better Nazis? The examples you quote would suggest that not all Nazis were half-educated or even thugs. They were far more dangerous.

          • Ivan M

            The national technical abilities and their great skill in warfare gave the Germans the edge. Being excessively smart and clever don’t always lead to desirable outcomes. Had the Germans been endowed with the more limited abilities of the Italians, countless millions of lives could have been saved including their own peoples. The meek shall inherit the Earth.

          • Anton

            The same Italians who created the Roman Empire and the Renaissance, you mean?

          • Cressida de Nova

            The ignorance of some of these commenters is breathtaking.
            Britain’s education system has failed its people.

          • Anton

            Is Ivan British?

          • Cressida de Nova

            I am assuming he is…I know he is not Italian:)

          • Ivan M

            Again it should be obvious that I am an Indian as I have indicated on numerous occasions over the years. Has anyone ever won a debate against an Indian?

          • Anton

            Let’s see how you reply, above, to my explanation of Italian fighting capability in WW2 as against yours.

          • Ivan M

            Pass.

          • grutchyngfysch

            Bring back the grammars I say.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Absolutely !

          • Ivan M

            Italians as they performed in WW II. I thought that was obvious.

          • Anton

            They fought poorly in WW2 because it was never really their war; they got dragged into it by Mussolini on Hitler’s shirttails. I do not agree that they had “limited abilities” relative to other combatants; limited motivation is the correct explanation.

          • pobjoy

            Both Speer and von Braun made money out of the Nazis. There is not much evidence that they were ideological Nazis.

            ‘Hitler was still only a pompous fool with a Charlie Chaplin moustache, another Napoleon, wholly without scruples, a godless man who thought himself the only god.’ Wernher von Braun

            Not that I care to blow their horns.

            Of course not. Dr Strangelove and his arm muscle problem come to mind.

          • Ivan M

            It must be that Charlie Chaplin moustache that fooled them then. I hesitate to say this – since you may go off on abusive rant – but I have read an authour who was maintained that Mr Chaplin was partly responsible for the general unpreparedness as he had portrayed Hitler as a clown in the Dictators.

          • pobjoy

            It must be that Charlie Chaplin moustache that fooled them then.

            Germans needed no excuse. Germany had been a hive of anti-Semitism for many centuries. As I suppose you know too well, German Catholicism and Lutheranism were polluted with it, and the Nazis fed on that.

            Hitler as a clown in the Dictators</em.

            I suppose you mean The Great Dictator of 1940. That piece of cinema may have given some Americans an excuse for non-involvement they undoubtedly wanted. But that observation, and the personal slur so beloved of Nazis, do not give any reason to doubt the deep sincerity of your own far right tendencies, Ivan.

          • Ivan M

            There you go…

          • pobjoy

            Then find your own level.

          • Ivan M

            Had von Braun not been an engineering genius the Americans would have put him on trial for the use of slave labour. Albert Speer managed to fool everyone and Ms Gita Sereny that he was a conflicted man. But that did not stop him from dragooning the German economy for total war.

          • pobjoy

            One does not need to be a Nazi to put the lives of others behind the requirements of one’s own avarice.

          • Ivan M

            ‘Runs’ would count as a Freudian slip. ‘Reigns’ is correct.

          • pobjoy

            Until they end up in a bunker, half-demented.

          • chiefofsinners

            Vultures don’t hover. They circle.

          • pobjoy

            Democracy pales into insignificance in comparison.

        • bluedog

          The culture war started decades ago, and is lead on one side by the likes of PT. Her expressions of innocent surprise are sickening in their falsity, being simply an exercise in shedding blame for the consequences.

        • Anton

          If e live in what is effectively a 2-party representative democracy and both parties become identical yet differ from the views of the electorate, what do you expect?

      • Ivan M

        The husband was “bathing” the fishermen “with love”, and “uniting against hate” with Geldof.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      I have just read the article by Alex Massie.

      Rhetoric certainly has consequences, but it is rhetoric from the BBC especially that has wound me up. I dislike both Farage and BoJo, but it is the counter-rhetoric that stirs feelings of hostility.

      During the Nigerian Civil War of 1967-70, the BBC gave such a one-sided coverage that in the breakaway region of Biafra, the way to accuse someone of lying was to call him “BBC man”.

    • True, but the converse is equally true. Who controls the narrative?

      Tony Blair and his Labour government were not mentally ill when they chose to aid George Bush in the wicked and stupid 2003 invasion of Iraq which, with its aftermath (including the creation of ISIS and contagion to other Arab states) has probably claimed 2 million lives so far. And wasted enough treasure to irrigate Africa.

      If, as the narrative is now flowing, we should vote Remain because Jo Cox’s killer supports Leave, shouldn’t we vote Leave because Bloodbath Blair supports Remain?

  • Jo Cox murdered for her dedication to European democracy and humanity—Avramopoulos

    Oh please. The EU despises democracy, and Cox was doing all she could to keep us shackled to the Brussels dictatorship; and celebrating the diversity (newspeak for race and faith replacement) of her constituency is the antithesis of humanity.

  • IrishNeanderthal

    Inspector General, please note the following;

    from Phantastes by George MacDonald, Chapter XXIII:

    . . . I looked up at [Sir Percivale]: his noble countenance was full of reverence and awe. Incapable of evil in himself, he could scarcely supspect it in another, much less in a multitude such as this, and surrounded with with such great appearances of solemnity. I was certain it was the really grand accompaniments that overcame him . . .

  • He has had several psychotic episodes his brother explained. I wonder if he has a history of drug use in the past?

  • Anton

    Execute the murderer (Genesis 9:6) and return to the debate.

    • And if the assassin turns out to be mentally ill?

      • carl jacobs

        Then you lock him away in a secure hospital for the rest of his life.

      • Anton

        God did not make any exception and he is wiser than you or me.

        • Genesis 9 makes no exceptions for the shedding of human blood – accident, self defence, or war.

          • Anton

            The passage implies knowledge of who did it, ie murder not war. As for accident, God did institute lex talionis in ancient Israel.

          • Genesis 9 does not justify killing in warfare, and the shedding of blood due to accident or self defence is not mentioned. Surely it’s a general law that requires prudential application? We’re not discussing Mosaic Law. If we were, as Jack recollects, manslaughter does not warrant the death penalty. A delusional, mentally ill person cannot be said to be acting with intent or knowledge of his behaviour.

          • Anton

            I agree that we are not discussing Mosaic Law. This is far older and applies to the entire human race and not just Israel, while the theological discussions in the New Testament about the law relative to the Crucifixion apply specifically to the law given to Moses.

    • Ivan M

      I expect you to volunteer to be the hangman for the sake of consistency.

      • Anton

        I disapprove of hanging as the way to execute people. God’s way was stoning, ie by a group in which no one man could be certain that he killed the criminal outright. Firing squads are a modern equivalent and I’d be prepared to be part of one if the State asked me.

        • Ivan M

          Very good.

  • Eustace

    The man who killed Jo Cox, mad or not, had a motive and we have yet to find out what that motive was.

    If it turns out to have been her support for the EU and her engagement on behalf of migrants, then no matter how crazy the man is (and we have no definitive proof that he is), the link between the Leave campaign and extreme right-wing politics will have been confirmed for all to see.

    This doesn’t mean that everyone who supports the Leave campaign is a far right extremist. But as the Leave campaign rhetoric legitimises many of the aims of far right groups (England for the English, no EU, halting immigration, etc), those who support such organisations are feeling more and more vindicated in their beliefs as rhetoric becomes increasingly strident.

    They feel like they have the nation behind them. They feel as though they can stop just talking and start to act.

    It’s too early to know if this murder is a symptom of a newly confident and resurgent far right that may well rise to renewed prominence in a post-Brexit Britain. But if it is, the exodus not only of people, but also of investment capital, jobs and opportunity from the UK economy will be nothing short of catastrophic.

    Events have a way of overtaking the average voter. The year 1933 offers ample proof of what can happen to a country when it elects a populist nationalist as leader thinking he’ll get the trains running on time and that’s all that matters. Many millions of Germans ended up bitterly regretting voting out of frustration and anger. Let’s hope British voters won’t have similar regrets in the future.

    • nemesis

      Brexit is a religion of peace.

    • bluedog

      Patriotism = Evil

      The International Community = Good

    • Inspector General

      Britain doesn’t do far right. Not even when it was in vogue in the 1930s. So nice try, neutered French poodle, but not on this occasion or any other…

      • bluedog

        Indeed, IG.

        French unemployment comes in at 10% plus, and the recaille in the banlieus, or the 750 zones sensible would reflect far, far higher figures. The seeds of sociological catastrophe are there for all to see but the wilfully blind.

    • Inspector General

      “I say, that’s an interesting dog you have there. Poodle, isn’t it?”

      “Yes, it’s a Parisian Bender”

      “New Breed?”

      “No. They’ve been around for some time, if you know where you look”

      “Any problems with them?”

      “Mainly faecal incontinence. And breeding from them is near impossible. Worse than giant pandas”

      “How do they do it then?”

      “Well, we position the dog in front of a young male puppy. That’s enough to get the stuff running freely, and then artificial insemination of the bitch”

      “Good grief! Is all the effort worth it?”

      “Certainly not. Don’t know why I bother with the bugger…”

    • Anton

      “If it turns out to have been her support for the EU and her engagement on behalf of migrants, then no matter how crazy the man is (and we have no definitive proof that he is), the link between the Leave campaign and extreme right-wing politics will have been confirmed for all to see.”

      The link consisting of one man in several million? Wonderful logic.

    • Ivan M

      It is not a given that the ‘Remain’ side will win. Stranger things have happened. When Al-Queda bombed all those trains in Spain in 2003, the common wisdom was that the Spanish would redouble their commitment in Iraq. In the event, the incumbent Aznar lost and the Spanish withdrew.

      My feeling is that the pattern of knee-jerk reactions that the Left so dearly expects and love, when using private tragedies for their own propagandist ends has run its course.

    • William Lewis

      “England for the English, no EU, halt immigration”

      By your logic anyone who thinks motorways are a good idea has links with, and legitimises, the goals of Nazi Germany.

      You are attempting to shutdown the arguments for Brexit by eliding them with extremism and trying to instill fear. To seriously suggest that a vote for Brexit legitimises a fascist UK is risible.

      • The Explorer

        Sir Ian McKellen has said that the EU has benefited gay rights, and that thought probably drives Eustace/Linus more than any other. Wolfenden, however, predated EU intervention.

  • CliveM

    The claims on either side of the Brexit debate are hyperbolic, exaggerated, idiotic. And the mutual loathing spreads daily across social media, a shrieking absolutism divorced from reality on both sides of the argument.”

    Liddle in the Spectator. I think this is right.

    • You missed the best bit: “We are drifting towards the febrile territory of a banana republic, or at best the USA.”

      And his conclusion:

      “Call the vote off, as a mark of respect. We are in no fit state to vote anyway, to judge by the level of debate. Call it off. Poor, poor, woman. Poor kids. And poor Britain.”

      • Anton

        And not calling it off is disrespect? Call it off is just a way to Remain.

      • CliveM

        Yes I should have included those as well.

        • bluedog

          Changed your mind yet? Calling off the vote is the worst possible option, what is needed is a decisive result as quickly as possible. Prolonging the agony does nobody any favours.

          • CliveM

            I’m beginning to think referendums are a mistake. We have a representative democracy and should stick with that. My views on this have little or nothing to do with Thursday’s tragic events. The campaign has mirrored the one in Scotland for lies , poison and spite.

          • Anton

            We have an unrepresentative democracy, and that’s why we need referenda.

          • CliveM

            See my answer to Bluedog above.

          • bluedog

            Yes and no, it’s a matter of degree. One of the problems in the UK is the nature of the constitution where there is no guidance as to what matters should be resolved by the parliament or by the people through a direct vote. Applying this test to the vote on the EU, one would have to say that a referendum is exactly the right option. The question of the repatriation of national sovereignty would seem to be an excellent opportunity to resolve the matter by way of referendum. A change in the timing of day-light saving would not. Of course, by going large and making the vote ‘in’ or ‘out’, Cameron hoped that the status quo would easily prevail. It may not. The law of diminishing returns applies with the endless threats and the mood is now ‘tell ’em, f*ck ’em’.

          • CliveM

            Referendums poison public discourse. They discourage reasoned debate, they are loved by Dictators (Hitler made much use of them) and they don’t lead too greater understanding of the issues being debated. This referendum was about the internal politics of the Conservative party’s and not about the democratic needs of the Country. Same was true with the first referendum, except it was about Labour.
            We elect our politicians to do a job, they can’t be allowed to play with referendums, simply to help themselves out internally.

            I started this campaign thinking a referendum was right. I’m now convinced it was wrong. I hoped it would resolve the issue of Europe. Instead it’s poisoned and divided.
            And I will probably be voting out.

          • Anton

            You sound like Plato arguing against democracy! What he, a philosopher, wanted was philosophers to run the country…

          • CliveM

            With the obvious exception that you weren’t going to get to elect your philosopher!

          • CliveM

            Should also say, understanding the context of his statement, it would be hard not to disagree.

          • IanCad

            A bit late in the thread to make it a major issue Clive; but, if I may flatter myself that you have read my previous posts in regard to the unparliamentary referendum process, then perhaps, you may view it as a short cut to civil war.

          • CliveM

            Yes I admit you said it first. Initially I thought you were mistaken, but I’ve changed my mind.

      • len

        When the UK sold out Israel the British Empire started to crumble, same with the USA .Gods mills grind slowly but they grind incredibly small……

        • Uncle Brian

          Eisenhower eventually recognised he’d backed the wrong side in the Suez crisis. He admitted that his action weakened the will of Britain and France to take an active part in world affairs outside Europe, and at the same time it didn’t stop Nasser from becoming even more aggressively anti-West and anti-U.S.

        • carl jacobs

          What act did the UK take that constituted selling out Israel?

          • The Explorer

            The Balfour Declaration on one hand, and promises to the Arabs on the other.

            That’s why Britain had such difficulty with the Palestine Mandate trying to placate both sides.

          • Anton

            Not really. The Arab claim that the Brits reneged on a promise to grant Arab self-determination after WW1 in return for rising against the Turks is not true insofar as Palestine goes. It is arguably true about Mesopotamia and (Trans)Jordan, but the Brits always kept Palestine out of the wartime agreement. (A vast amount of mud has been flung about regarding this fact and interested readers should check multiple sources and original documents.) What happened next is that the Arabs of Palestine grew increasingly unhappy with Jewish migrants, leading to Arab insurrection in the 1930s. The Brits responded by throttling Jewish migration to Palestine, prioritising the keeping of order above the commitment made to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration. In particular, the MacDonald White Paper of May 1939 slammed the gates of Palestine in the faces of Jews desperate to escape Hitler, effectively including a veto by Palestinian Arabs on Jewish migration to Palestine. Churchill, who was not then in the Cabinet, criticised the White Paper in the debate on it in the House of Commons on 23rd May 1939: “I could not stand by and see solemn engagements into which Britain has entered… set aside for reasons of administrative convenience or… for the sake of a quiet life… I would feel personally embarrassed… if I lent myself… to what I must regard as an act of repudiation.” Of the proposed Arab veto on Jewish immigration after 1944, Churchill went on: “there is the violation of the pledge, there is the abandonment of the Balfour Declaration, there is the end of the vision.” The White Paper was nevertheless accepted by majority vote of the House of Commons later that day. The Permanent Mandates Commission of the League of Nations declared on 29th June 1939 that “The policy set out in the White Paper is not in accordance with the interpretation which, in agreement with the Mandatory Power and the Council, the Commission has placed upon the Palestine Mandate” (ie, to enact the Balfour Declaration).

          • Uncle Brian

            Mark Regev, Israel’s new(ish) ambassador to the UK, is saying there are going to be joint British-Israeli celebrations later this year to commemorate the centenary of the Balfour Declaration. I wonder whether David Cameron (or whoever else has replaced him by then as the tenant of No. 10) will have the guts to appear in public, either in London or Jerusalem, shoulder to shoulder with Bibi Netanhayu.

            http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/mark-regev-reveals-uk-and-israel-working-on-public-celebration-of-balfour/

          • len

            Sorry bit late coming back to this but Explorer and Anton have explained my point.

  • Pubcrawler

    Wise sentimemts from la Mensch:

    http://heatst.com/uk/justice-first-jo-coxs-mentally-ill-killer-should-not-be-discussed-in-parliament/

    The sooner he’s charged and the matter becomes sub judice the better.

    • Bernard from Bucks

      Why the delay?

      • Pubcrawler

        I think it’s still the case that all questioning of a suspect must cease once he is charged.

    • Royinsouthwest

      He has been charged now but I doubt if that will stop the Remain camp from trying to make political capital out of the tragedy.

    • CliveM

      Good article. Interesting. I should say for balance that the words ‘Britain First’ appeared on the Mail and Telegraph websites long before the BBC’s.

      To much speculation from all sides.

      • grutchyngfysch

        Breitbart was reporting last night that the Britain First eyewitnesses were both members of the BMP or couldn’t be found at their stated address. Too early to say on that front but it does look like the guy was a far right adherent.

        • CliveM

          My problem is everything is being filtered through the press and as the experience of Chris Jeffries shows they don’t allow the truth get in the way of a good story. The lies presented as fact nearly destroyed this man. This may not be the case here, but I will wait for proper evidence.

          This is a tragedy for a family. I had never heard of her before Thursday and certainly wouldn’t have voted for her. It’s a pity certain commentators have seen this tragedy as an opportunity.

          • grutchyngfysch

            Despite the paeans to our beloved MPs, politics is full to the gunnels with the opportunistic, the malign, and the naive. Point-scoring was inevitable. The Left should just be thankful that their opponents are not in the habit of selling T-shirts celebrating the demise of their representatives, nor making a point of praising those who use political violence to achieve their ends.

          • CliveM

            Very true.

  • grutchyngfysch

    I have two thoughts:

    1. If we do accept the argument that the “political climate” is actually causal of a mentally unstable right-wing man’s murder of an MP, then where do we fit in the clear narrative (from both sides) that it is Remain who have been running “Project Fear”?

    2. There is an absolute need to dissect the role of ideology in violent (political) acts. Even if we take as given that the mental health of the murderer was a critical factor, it is still the case that no every mentally ill person builds a gun to lie and wait and assassinate a left-wing MP. Ideas, philosophy, and beliefs all matter, and are pivotal to how people behave. Simply boiling down the issue to some sort of universalist “hate” leaves you unable to do anything other than chant the mantras of associated groups. “Britain First is a peaceful movement”; “We actually stand for hope not hate”. That’s all you have left to parrot, and it’s not good enough, because it reduces acts which should be taken as morally significant (i.e. evil) to symptomatic symbols that do nothing other than provide an intellectually undemanding language to posture with.

    • Is it just Remain who have been running “Project Fear”? All this talk of Britain being over-run by immigrants and Christian Europe being swamped by Islam is hardly a positive message. There’s been hype and exaggeration on both sides.

      • grutchyngfysch

        Yes, but I didn’t say it was only one side, I simply supplied what has widely been reported: that fear is at the heart of the Remain campaign. If Remain campaigners wish to then attack Brexit for negative campaigning, they should take this into account.

  • The Explorer

    “Jo wanted a better world.” Of course she did. Those wanting a worse world must be rare.
    Eustace wants a better world. So do I. The problem is, his vision of what constitutes a better world is not the same as mine.

    • Eustace

      Murdering my political opponents does not form a part of my vision of a better world.

      Calling those who oppose me “traitors”, with everything that implies, and then pretending to be aghast when those I have influenced with my rhetoric take it upon themselves to inflict the death penalty on them does not form a part of my vision of a better world either.

      It would appear however that these things do form part of the better world of a significant part of the Leave campaign, including many who post here.

      Their better world involves death and destruction. Gays must die under a hail of bullets. The left wing Europhile MPs who support them must follow. One assumes anyone else who opposes them will be next in the firing line.

      No, that is not part of my vision of a better world. Is it part of yours?

      • The Explorer

        “Gays must die under a hail of bullets.” That may be the vision of a Muslim, or of a repressed gay, or of a rejected misfit: depending on which of those visions motivated the Orlando killer. It need not be your vision of a better world, nor mine.

        My vision of a better world would be one with more Christianity; whereas yours would be a world from which all traces of Christianity had ben eradicated. That was what I had in mind.

      • The Explorer

        I can see how the world is a frightening place for you. Gays have been shot, and now a left-wing politician who would support the rights of gays has also been shot.

        If there’s a consolation for you, it’s the thought that the two murderers are not allies. Given the opportunity, the one, at least, might have shot the other.

        • Eustace

          The consolation is that both murderers represent minority extremist positions that can’t be taken seriously in terms of their ideas. They’ll never succeed in imposing their beliefs on society, so all they can do is wreak vengeance by force of arms. This makes them dangerous to those who have the misfortune to be in their sights when they start shooting. But it doesn’t make them a serious threat to society as a whole.

          Far more threatening are the politicians who preach populist nationalism and isolationism. If Britain lurches to the right as a result of this referendum, minorities will certainly suffer. Who knows how far it will go? We know what happened in the past, so we know what’s possible.

          That thought alone should frighten us all.

  • Inspector General

    BBC News Item…

    “Former defence chief Lord Guthrie has switched sides to the Leave campaign in the EU referendum, saying he is worried by the prospect of “a European army”.

    • carl jacobs

      You have to figure out how to form an integrated military the operates above the national level in terms of command, planning, operations, and acquisition. If the individual states of Europe are no longer capable of purchasing and operating a full range of capability, then the collective must do so. The alternative is either 1) let the Germans do it (with everything that implies) or 2) risk defeat in detail.

      The US army is not the army of Europe.

      • Inspector General

        The British Army is the finest professional army in the world. Well above US standards and as for European defence forces – they are mere militia in comparison.

        • carl jacobs

          Just for you, Inspector …

          • Inspector General

            It’s enough to make a fellow comb some boot black through his hair, lie about his age, and take the Queen’s shilling!

  • Eustace

    So now it’s official. The murderer has claimed that his crime was a political act of revenge against a “traitor”.

    Call him mad if it assuages your conscience. But the fact remains that the kind of political convictions voiced loudly on this blog have now claimed their first victim in this campaign.

    Those of you who use the same vocabulary as killer and bandy words like “traitor” around now have blood on your hands. Maybe the killer is mentally unbalanced. But you egged him on by encouraging him to view Remain activists as evil betrayers. You backed him up and comforted him in his beliefs. You made him think the country was on his side. Your moral responsibility is clear, so get on your knees and pray to that imaginary God of yours. If he does turn out to be real, you’ve got some explaining to do when you finally meet him.

    This will be a determing factor in next week’s vote. The Leave campaign’s moral responsibility in this tragic event cannot and will not be ignored. Hardcore Leave support probably won’t waver. It’ll reject any link with the killer and claim innocence even as it continues to shriek about traitors and unpatriotic Remainers who want to sell us down the river to the evil European Empire. But the Undecideds, who were always going to decide this anyway, will now flock to the Remain cause. What else can they do? A vote to leave will be a vote in favour of violence, intimidation and murder.

    • Uncle Brian

      Oh yes. Just like everyone who voted for Nixon in 1960 was responsible for Lee Harvey Oswald shooting Kennedy in Dallas that day.

      • Eustace

        Kennedy was smeared by accusations of being a traitor. All those who joined in those accusations share part of the moral responsibility for his murder.

        • The Explorer

          You see how easy it is to arrive at the idea of Original Sin in which we are all implicated?

          • pobjoy

            Fascist propaganda.

          • The Explorer

            What is?
            1. Eustace’s statement?
            2. My statement?
            3. The concept of The Fall? (Note that I didn’t say whether the Fall is a valid concept or not. I merely said that if the action of one person makes other people guilty – as Eustace seems to suggest – he should not have a problem with the central idea behind the Fall).

          • Ivan M

            The murder as a type of Reichstag Fire.

          • The Explorer

            Thank you.

          • pobjoy

            Fascist propaganda.

          • The Explorer

            Thank you for the clarification.

          • pobjoy

            You’re welcome.

        • carl jacobs

          OK, so … for the sake of historical accuracy.

          1. Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist, and those accusations of “treason” were coming from a rather different part of the political spectrum. So it’s hard to see how Oswald could have been influenced by them such that guilt would attach to those who made the charge.

          2. Oswald didn’t assassinate JFK for political reasons. He was a sad irrelevant little man who wanted to “be somebody” and achieved his goal by the expedient of killing someone important.

    • len

      What is someone who has obvious mental health issues doing being allowed to roam free in society? Who is responsible for that ?.
      You posts Eustace are becoming more hysterical as time goes on and this is the very inflammatory problem you are complaining about?.Such is your hatred of Christians….

    • CliveM

      And you don’t get the irony of this post?

    • Dreadnaught

      Clam down Dear – calm down. You talk such utter bollocks when you hysterically malign every Leave voter.

      • Eustace

        Not every Leave voter. Just the hysterical xenophobic Blimps who call Remainers traitors and encourage the lunatic fringe of extreme right wing nutters to act out their violent fantasies.

        Of course that covers many who post on this blog. They know who they are. They know how many times they’ve bandied the word “traitor” around. They know they have blood on their hands today.

        • bluedog

          It’s Cameron who has blood on his hands.

    • Inspector General

      This is rather going to upset you, deranged poodle, but you’re going to see it anyway.

      The polls show that it’s neck and neck. But are we so sure of the polls after the General Election dismal showing by them. It’s quite clear to the Inspector that the reason the Conservatives have a clear majority is that people LIED to the pollsters. They did not want Miliband as PM and some were prepared to achieve that aim by taking what for them was an ‘anti social’ step – to vote Conservative. Not something they were prepared to admit to outsiders.

      Same thing now. Hysterics like you whine that changing that leaving the EU is also going to be anti social, even evil. A sin. So people lie to the pollsters rather than risk derision or you reaching for their leg as you wriggle around in agony on the pavement. So you see, Leave has it in the bag. And that will be confirmed this time next week…

    • sarky

      What a lot of old bollocks.

    • Anton

      You are not my judge.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      According to your logic, the murderers of Fusilier Lee Rigby would be similarly representative of Muslims in Britain.

      • carl jacobs

        Shush! Just Shush, you! Shush! Shush! Shush! That’s totally different. Not the same at all. And stuff.

        • VivM

          It was the far right made them do it!

      • Eustace

        Of course Muslims who preach the murder of infidels share in the responsibility for Lee Rigby’s death.

        If your words incite others to commit a crime, you share in the responsibility for that crime.

        • chiefofsinners

          Your words are inciting me to despise people called Eustace. Not my fault.

          • Eustace

            What, a Christian who despises his fellow man? Whoever heard of such a thing?

            Every inhabitant of the planet who’s ever come into contact with the religion, that’s who.

            Christianity is a faith built on hatred, resentment, hurt feelings and wounded pride. All covered up with a thin and brittle layer of noble piety that hides nothing and is forever breaking apart to reveal the stinking mess beneath.

            The hypocrisy of Christians is so easy to demonstrate. Contradict them and their hatred and anger bubbles up from below, consuming the mantle of piety and turning them into raging volcanoes of fury and vengeance.

            So what happened to all the love, forbearance and calmness your religion is supposed to confer on you? It all evaporated because of one comments thread on the Internet? The truth is that it was never there in the first place and that you’re no different from anyone else. Fruits of the Spirit? Don’t make me larff! A festering mess of fermenting bitterness and hatred, more like.

          • chiefofsinners

            You make my point very well. Thank you. I am entirely responsible for my reaction to your words.

        • Anton

          The only possible answer to that is Yes and No.

    • Our lefty society let down the killer when they sent him on his way after he asked for help at the drop in centre the day before he murdered Jo Cox.
      They should have sent him on to hospital where he could have been kept in and his medication reviewed.

      • Eustace

        If the killer hadn’t been driven into a frenzy by the intemperate rhetoric of the Leave campaign and their hysterical accusations of betrayal against anyone who supports our continued membership of the EU, he wouldn’t have had any reason to act against Ms Cox.

        Blame those who egged him on and reinforced his delusion that Remainers are traitors, and what fate do traitors deserve?

        You weren’t at that drop-in centre and you don’t know the circumstances that caused him to be turned away. So don’t judge those health care workers. Must their reputations be maligned in order to assuage your guilt?

        • CliveM

          You really are a pillock. Don’t pretend you care about this woman.

          This sad desperation to use the dead says more about you, then it does about the sites commentators.

          Your keenness to make use of the dead, borders on necrophilia.

          • Eustace

            Think that abusing me will shift the focus away from your guilt in this affair, do you?

            You may be able to fool yourself. But we all know who and what pushed this man over the edge: the constant accusations of betrayal against the Remain campaign from nationalist bigots just like you.

            Own your guilt, old fascist. Running from it makes you a coward as well as a demagogue.

          • CliveM

            Ok you vile creature (strange how the individual who hides behind multiple pseudonyms can accuse anyone of cowardice), quote me. Put up or shut up.

          • Inspector General

            Coming here to vent his pain is therapy for the old poof, Clive. You have to remember that 48% of male homosexual pairings involve an element of violence. And he never mentions his beloved these days, that younger, fitter man…

          • CliveM

            He’s a bully and a coward Inspector.

          • Inspector General

            A bruised one to be sure. Anyway, the Inspector has the measure of him, and he knows it, and has stopped posting to a fellow resulting. Definitely should be hung out to dry his cowardliness….

          • CliveM

            He’s a sad old has been trading on past glories. Getting ever more desperate and shrill.

          • Inspector General

            Glory is not a word one could ever associate with that oddball.

          • Pubcrawler

            There is a phrase with that word in it, though, that one might…

          • Inspector General

            As he’s no longer around, he may well be getting it ‘seen to’

          • CliveM

            Maybe not Inspector.

            He seems to have skulked off.

          • Pubcrawler

            Another regeneration imminent?

          • CliveM

            Well his current profile is still live. Maybe not for a while yet.

          • Pubcrawler

            *tumbleweed*

          • CliveM

            I suppose it’s too much to hope that it stays that way?!!

          • Pubcrawler

            Seems so. The more frenzied he gets, the more ridiculous and pitiful he makes himself look.

          • CliveM

            I see he’s back. Frothing at the mouth as always.

          • Pubcrawler

            Viewing others through what he sees in the mirror.

          • CliveM

            I still not seeing a response. I’m assuming he’s decided to shut up, rather than put up.

            I don’t expect him to acknowledge this however!

          • Pubcrawler

            Of course not. And the next incarnation will deny all knowledge.

            But I have a screen grab…

          • CliveM

            He’ll just deny he’s the same person.

          • Pubcrawler

            Doubtless, but it denies him his other ploy — that he can find no trace of any such poster.

          • CliveM

            True can’t argue with that!!

        • Dreadnaught

          It sounds to me like Mair thought of himself as a B&M Bargain Store version of Anders Brievik.

        • Don’t be so stupid, I’ve nothing to be guilty for.
          One could say that it’s the Remainers who are at fault and they certainly are milking it for all it’s worth. We have my MP Stephen Kinnock telling us all to vote to remain as it’s what Jo Cox would have wanted. He even produced a few tears as he said it, the charlatan.

          • Eustace

            Of course you’ve got nothing to feel guilty for! Like most Christians, you’ve convinced yourself that everything is always everyone else’s fault, because how could it possibly be yours? God is on your side, isn’t he? So how can you possibly do anything wrong?

            The level of delusion is quite staggering. As well as the cold-heartedness of your comments about Stephen Kinnock. Jo Cox was a close friend of the entire Kinnock family. They’re all devasted by her death. Where’s the love and compassion a Christian is supposed to feel for those in pain? Nowhere to be found in the solid block of cynical ice that passes for a heart in your withered chest.

          • Inspector General

            You are no gentleman, sir. You are deserving of a damn good thrashing, you cur!

          • CliveM

            I see he’s attempting to bully the Ladies Inspector.

            He’s no Gentleman!

          • Inspector General

            The blighter’s run off, chaps. He can run, but he can’t hide from the Inspector…

          • CliveM

            Strange, I had thought he would welcome a good thrashing :0)

          • Inspector General

            Oh, he gets a damn good thrashing alright, in the comfort of his home, courtesy of the man he loves.

          • CliveM

            As long as he’s happy, who are we to judge?

          • Inspector General

            But he’s not. Far from it. He’s coming to the end it looks like. No one can keep that amount of festering hate inside himself and retain sanity.

          • CliveM

            Oh well Inspector we will just have to pray for him.

            I’m sure he’ll appreciate it………

          • Inspector General

            Knowing you’re praying for him is some more acid in his face…

          • CliveM

            Ha, you think!

          • carl jacobs

            Bad Clive. You should be ashamed.

          • CliveM

            I should be, but I’m not!

          • bluedog

            Splendid stuff, Inspector. Permit this communicant to act as your second, Sir.

          • Eustace

            Like to see you try, weak-minded old bigot. If your fist is as feeble as your grasp on reason, a newborn baby could inflict more damage.

            But that’s typical of Christians, I find. Few of them are physically robust. They’re either pale and pudgy adults with all the physical force of a sweaty blancmange, or frail and decaying geriatrics confined to wheelchairs and fearfully contemplating their own mortality as they slowly dribble into their incontinence pants.

            So which are you? I can guess, and the image is not pretty. Laughable. Grotesque. Even pitiable. But not pretty…

          • Inspector General

            …and have you taking refuge in the nearest ladies restroom?

          • Never heard of George Foreman?

          • Like most Christians I am on God’s side not the other way round as you put it. Christians are sinners too only the difference is we strive to be better people by following God’s words and instructions as best we can. The love and passion I felt for Mr Kinnock loosing a friend evaporated the moment he told us all to vote to remain in the EU because it’s what she would have wanted. He is using this tragedy to garner more votes for his political and financial benefit. It wasn’t so long ago that he was advocating we leave the EU. He’s realised how much money his parents have pocketed – around £10 million – and changed his mind.

          • Inspector General

            Being alive is not a sin, Marie. If we are continually striving for perfection as much as we can achieve it.

          • Eustace

            You have no idea what Kinnock’s motives are. His words clearly struck a chord with you and your response to the guilt they inspire is a wave of hatred, slander and calumny.

            You’re a true Christian, i.e. a miserable, angry, self-serving creature who uses her God as excuse to hate her fellow man.

            Love thy neighbour, eh? Don’t make me larff! Despise thy neighbour, more like. Hate him, accuse him of dishonesty and duplicity, call him and his parents criminals and embezzlers and generally vent your spite and spleen at your own failures and shortcomings against them. They’ve succeeded in life and are listened to, whereas your only platform is a miserable little far right Christian blog where nonentities like you congregate to bitch about your lot and condemn to hell everyone you blame for your unhappiness and frustration.

            That’s Christianity as it really is: a religion of hurt feelings, resentment and bitter vengeance. No wonder it clings on in the deepest and most foul-smelling crevices of society.

          • The only foul-smelling bitch around here is you Eustace!
            I’ve got to ask then what are you doing on here if you think it’s such a miserable little far right Christian blog full of nonentities hmmm?
            You’re nothing but a bully.
            I don’t hate anyone, I dislike some people for what they do or don’t do. I can’t agree with that load of twaddle you’ve written here, go and read up on the Kinnocks.

          • So you haven’t encountered the most basic fact about Christianity, that we know ourselves to be sinners in need of forgiveness, which Jesus said would be denied us unless we forgive those who offend us? In other words, you are completely ignorant of what you are criticising. You sir are a poison troll.

      • What hospital?

        • They could have taken him to the nearest hospital in that area that deals with mental patients if there is such a one.
          Why have a drop in centre at all if they can’t really help people. Nobody cares anymore about anyone else but themselves.

          • Please pardon my sarcastic quip Marie? I remember the old Victorian asylums and worked in one, Goodmayrs in Essex. All closed down and sold off.

            When I was a GP I once drove a depressed patient to the loval mental hospital (now closed and empty) in my own car. Sadly he hanged himself on the ward 2 days later.

            Mental ill health is very complicated, we can’t even define it, let alone impose a cure. I post this not without sympathy, but with my sceptical hat on.

    • bluedog

      ‘A vote to leave will be a vote in favour of violence, intimidation and murder.’

      Emotional drivel. A post full of hatred and contempt for the reasoned arguments in favour of Leave and those of us who promote them.

      Shouldn’t you be blaming David Cameron for his initiative in launching the referendum? Without the divisions that the referendum has opened in British society there would have been continued peace and prosperity in the UK, and across Europe under the benign rule of the EU Commission.

      • Eustace

        Cameron made a mistake in allowing this referendum, but he’s not responsible for the hysterical accusations of betrayal from the Leave camp that cost Jo Cox her life.

        • bluedog

          Of course Cameron is responsible. In February this year he announced that if his negotiations didn’t yield the desired results (treaty change on his terms), he would brief against Remain. In doing this he raised expectations of Leave. In the event Cameron’s negotiations were a complete failure, despite ritual claims of victory, yet Cameron advocates Remain. The British electorate are not stupid, they don’t trust Cameron and their confidence in their judgement is repeatedly confirmed. If a leader betrays his people, something is going to snap, and it did. The buck stops with Cameron.

    • So the blood of Jo Cox is on the hands of all of us who have a problem with mass immigration. Shame on you Eustace, shame and disgust.

    • >>>>>. But the Undecideds, who were always going to decide this anyway, will now flock to the Remain cause. What else can they do? A vote to leave will be a vote in favour of violence, intimidation and murder.<<<<<<

      Well that's certainly what the Remainsts want everyone to think.

      What do you think about Tony Blair in the 'blood on your hands' stakes?

      • Eustace

        I try not to think about Tony Blair…

        • Fair enough. But we trusted him once, and now maybe 2 million people are dead and another 5 million refugees. I voted for him and encouraged others to. I believed him. When he tells me to trust him on the EU…..

          • Eustace

            All politicians end up betraying those who elect them. That’s the nature of politics. Promises are made and then broken when circumstances change, which they always will. Governments have to be free to respond to events as they happen otherwise effective government becomes impossible.

            That being said, a government that has to break a promise should at least be open about it, explain why the promise has been broken and let electors make up their own minds about whether to punish them at the ballot box. Blair’s problem was that he could never admit wrongdoing or put himself in a position where he had to ask for forgiveness. His character doesn’t seem to be able to deal with admissions of guilt and repentance.

            Quite how he manages to reconcile that with the Catholic faith he claims to follow, I don’t know. All I do know is that his confessor must be a frustrated man. How do you deal with someone who’s supposed to acknowledge his sin nature while remaining constitutionally incapable of admitting that he’s ever committed a sin?

  • carl jacobs

    So what happens if “Remain” wins? The bureaucrats in Europe can exhale at long last. A relieved David Cameron will give a conciliatory press conference in which he tries to put his party back together and pledges to get “a better deal” from the EU. And … pretty much everything else stays the same.

    The refugee problem still exists. The EU still has monetary union without fiscal union. The whole structure of the EU is still organized to protect German prosperity above everything else. German prosperity is still dependent upon export to a decaying periphery. The periphery is still trapped with a currency that renders it non-competitive. Austerity still has no end in sight. Unemployment rates are still high. There is still an unaccountable bureaucratic class trying to bludgeon the populations of Europe into a supra-national entity at the expense of national loyalty. And the pervading sense of lost national sovereignty best illustrated by loss of border control is unassuaged. All the pressures threatening the EU are still there.

    The structure of the EU is driving opposition. Defeat for Brexit only inflames the “Leave” camp without settling the issue. That’s because the issue can’t be settled without addressing the structure of the EU. But that is the one thing the EU is unwilling to discuss.

    If Brexit loses, then the ultimate end of the EU is pushed out. But the consequence is that the endgame will be made that much more catastrophic as a result.

    • Dreadnaught

      An assessment I can recognise as fairly well reasoned – which way would you be voting?

      • carl jacobs

        Out.

        • Dreadnaught

          I will vote in line with my children if they both vote the same; if not I won’t be voting: not my generation’s future to call.

          • sarky

            I’m voting precisely for my children. As far as I can see is one of the most important decisions I can make for them.

          • Dreadnaught

            and if you are wrong?

          • Anton

            What if your children are wrong?

          • sarky

            If I thought like that I’d never make a decision.

          • carl jacobs

            Sarky! You said something wise. Next thing you know, you’ll be telling me you are getting your tattoos removed. 😉

          • Inspector General

            Sarcastic thing has tattoos? Thought he might…..

          • chiefofsinners

            Parents have a duty to use the wisdom of their years, giving their children what is good for them, rather than what they want.

    • David

      Your analysis is about right, Carl. If Brexit loses then Europe continues to block out the reality of its dysfunction, and the suffering on the periphery continues and increases. The relationship between the UK and a rapidly Federalising EU becomes even more ambivalent and tense. The (temporarily) failed Brexiters now have the advantage that they have raised many more peoples’ awareness of the nature of the EU. So after dusting themselves off, followed by a short rest, we just carry on harassing the main parties. It is a form of guerrilla warfare which rather suits me I find !
      Hopefully this time the edifice will be breached but if not, there’s always plenty of other opportunities to fight the good fight. Unlike Cameron we are not going anywhere. The overall narrative across the EU is anti-establishment and pro-patriotism. Moreover the next leader of The Conservative Party, and therefore the PM, is bound to be a lot more anti-EU. Either we win now or later. Must dash – there’s work to plan ready for tomorrow’s restart.

    • bluedog

      If Brexit wins, revolt will run like wildfire through the EU. This is what terrifies the elites, and a repeat of the disintegration of the Soviet Union beckons.

      • carl jacobs

        If “Leave” wins the vote, the Gov’t will find a way to ignore it. That will delegitimize the EU a little more and might stir up calls for other referendums. But the same problem will attend elsewhere. The people in Gov’t don’t want to leave. Unless and until an electorate puts into power a Gov’t that is willing to break the relationship, the best you will get is a continuing vision of the divergence between the population and the ruling elites.

        That’s why Shengen is so dangerous to the EU. It’s an issue that is so volatile with the general public, the ruling elites could lose control.

        • Inspector General

          You don’t understand the British, Carl. For Cameron to ignore the referendum would be unthinkable. We are like that.

          • carl jacobs

            The Labour party and the SNP will vote en mass to stay in the EU just to exacerbate the conflict in the Conservative party. A few pro-EU Conservative cross over and the referendum is so much dead meat on a mortician’s table. I’ve already seen this scenario described at Spectator.

          • Inspector General

            You forget one thing. We are cursed with a political freeloader of an MP whose only concern is to get re-elected to the gravy train next time. Think again…

          • bluedog

            The Labour party leadership are urging Remain, but the rank and file are talking Leave. What is left of the working class are British patriots. They don’t do globalisation and cosmopolitan.

          • carl jacobs

            I must admit. I am assuming Labour will hold fast. If that isn’t true, then anything can happen. But it’s hard for me to envision Labour passing on the opportunity to induce a brutal civil war in the Conservative party. The partisan opportunity is just too golden.

          • Pubcrawler

            It depends on whether the anti-Corbyn faction (not a negligible number) feels more driven to knife him (that’s metaphorical, Eust-us) right now than stick it to the Conservatives. Strategically they might see the former as more immediately important.

          • bluedog

            Labour is a conflicted entity. The old white working class constituents are against third world immigration and feel threatened by globalisation, particular in the north. The leadership and the parliamentary wing of Labour are largely globalist and pro-EU, although Corbyn seems completely insincere in this regard. The article in the Guardian dated June 14th by the Marxist intellectual Polly Toynbee gives details of the problems being faced by the London Labour sophisticates in coaxing the northerners to vote Remain. One is confident that out in the grassroots they will be ignoring head office once in the polling booth. The death of Jo Cox is undoubtedly a disaster for Leave, but by Thursday and confronted by the opportunity to protest, many will take the chance.

        • bluedog

          ‘If “Leave” wins the vote, the Gov’t will find a way to ignore it.’

          This is the fear, Cameron laid out his position in the El Pais interview in April 2013. If Brexit prevails the Conservatives must depose Cameron (and his side-kick Osborne) to appoint a new leadership team. Johnson, Gove, Mordaunt, Redwood and Jenkins would be integral to its success. Cross party support would be critical too.

          There has just been a Bilderberger meeting. The second round of hysterical threats from Lafarge at the IMF is reflective of the sense of panic therein. Without question her remarks are addressed to the French, not to the British, who are already in effect a lost cause. The French presidential election next year may well result in the National Front either forming a government itself or sharing power with Sarkozy on the right.

          The ruling elites confront their nemesis in the form of nationalist democracy.

        • Peter Hitchens makes this point. If we vote Leave, the honourably thing for Cameron to do would be to actually leave the EU, but he has no honour.

  • len

    If ‘remain’ wins we will really be in the deep stuff.Several EU countries haven`t got a hope in hell of repaying their bail out loans and will demand more money and more time to pay in an ever escalating mountain of debt.France and Germany will(again ) demand that the UK pays the lions share of the next round of ‘bail outs .’
    Turkey will demand to join the EU as a deal to hold back the ever growing tide of economic migrants intermingled with genuine refugees fleeing from the mess the in the middle east and beyond.
    And if ‘remain’ wins the UK is totally committed to whatever role the EU decides for the UK to play.
    Whats not to like?.

    • Anton

      The EU could fall to bits anyway for these reasons. Chin up!

      • The Explorer

        I think the EU will collapse. Hopefully, we are simply voting on whether or not to accelerate the process.

      • David

        Don’t underestimate the determination of the EU elite to maintain their quality of life. They are only concerned with Number One and will stop at nothing to maintain their power and privileges. But yes conditions could become even more desperate than they are now, and they probably will, but you’ll never get the political zealots to admit this.

        • Anton

          Bullies are merely cowards with power. But press them and they will crumble.

          • David

            I agree. So let’s keep pressing !

    • David

      All true. Of the “club” of 29 nations only two are contributors now, Germany and the UK. France’s financial contribution has shrunk, along with its troubled economy. So that’s two supporting twenty seven ! To quote you, what’s not to like ?

    • Royinsouthwest

      A remain vote probably would not settle things permanently, or even for a generation since the EU will not stay the same. It would probably alienate many “remain” voters, as well as citizens of other countries. If the LibLabCon Party was against a second referendum it might discover that political parties have no right to be always in contention for power.

      When Lloyd George was at the peak of his popularity how many people suspected that in just a few years’ time the Liberal Party would be reduced permanently to a largely insignificant force in British politics? Twenty five years ago who would have suspected that the Labour Party in Scotland would also become an irrelevance? The same fate could befall Labour in the rest of Britain and the Tories all over Britain.

      • carl jacobs

        A “Leave” vote won’t settle anything either because there isn’t a majority in parliament to act upon it. But by ignoring its own referendum, the Gov’t will inflame “Leave” voters to a much greater degree than defeat ever could. Who knows what the political fallout will be?

      • Inspector General

        If Remain win, then all the mainstream political parties will have to fight to attract the 45% of voters who voted to remain. That leaves just one party to attract the 44% of voters wanting out. U.K.I.P.

        A new era of politics has already begun, and no politician can stop it from being so, what!

        • Dreadnaught

          I agree with you last sentence. It’s up to ourselves for reform British politics because one way or another the old system has been found severely lacking in relevance in the 21st Century.

          • Inspector General

            Even if the referendum is lost, we can still do it through Westminster. They can’t hide that truth from the people, and 44% of the vote is more than enough to secure a majority…

          • Dreadnaught

            First past the post has to go if we want truly democratic representation.

          • Inspector General

            No. We want it in place for the reasons above.

          • Dreadnaught

            That outmoded model is exactly what the ‘Muslim Party’ will be relying on as white-flight begins to bite; it will be the rapid Balkanisation of Britain.

          • Inspector General

            Changing it was itself thrown out in a referendum if you cast your mind back…The party RESPECT will pick up the muslim vote from it alright, at the Labour party’s cost.

          • bluedog

            Will Sadiq jump ship to lead the Muslim Brotherhood in Britain?

          • No need, the Labour party is hardly distinguishable from the Muslim Brotherhood.

          • Dreadnaught

            Once Muslim numbers reach 5% of the population so it is calculated, they will be virtually unstoppable. I have read that there is something like 40 million in Europe already.

          • bluedog

            This is true, although 40m sounds too high. However, the pattern established by Boris in building profile and recognition while Mayor of London is inevitably going to be followed by Sadiq Khan.

            As the London population is reportedly 13% Muslim and rising, Khan will naturally take the route of becoming the emir of London Muslims once his term as Mayor is over. No doubt Khan is already working on a succession plan so that the next Mayor is Muslim too. He will then have the opportunity of leveraging off his London power base and continued Muslim control of City Hall to take control of other Muslim localities throughout Britain.

            At this point, the tail starts wagging the dog. Khan’s Muslim power block becomes essential to any non-Muslim political group seeking democratic legitimacy. Within ten years an extremely dangerous situation could emerge. The political elite are naturally in denial about this possibility.

          • Pubcrawler

            “40 million sounds too high”

            Latest from Pew Foundation:

            http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

            In 2010 they estimated 44m in Europe as a whole, 19m in EU.

          • Dreadnaught

            14 million in Russia, 4 million plus in each of UK Germany and France and thats just what they know of without Albania and all the rest. Yes I know Russia is not in the EU but Russia borders the EU. Whats the chances of Putin expelling his Muslims? It could easily happen when Ukraine joins.

          • Dreadnaught

            Citizen Khan may already be being groomed for all we know.

          • Dreadnaught

            What the hell were they thinking in promoting that stinking fish-crate Neil Hamilton to prominence. UKIP will not attain gravitas or be taken in anyway seriously with turds like him on their shoes.

          • Anton

            Moderately put. But I too regret that UKIP adopted him.

    • chiefofsinners

      If Remain wins, Nigel Farage will say, with some justification, vote in a UKIP government and we’ll have another referendum. This time we’ll spend millions of pounds of public money on Leave propaganda, we’ll get the treasury to produce economic forecasts favouring Leave and we’ll use diplomatic channels to get foreign heads of state to support us. Then we’ll see what the result is.

      • Inspector General

        Oh No! No No No, and thrice No! If we are blessed with a UKIP government, we are OUT. OUT, sir, OUT!!!

        OUT, I tells ye!

        • bluedog

          A UKIP govt, Inspector? You jest. Never under Farage, he can’t even get into the parliament despite his very high profile and anointment by Cameron.

          No, one can see a grand coalition of patriots drawn from the best of the Conservatives and Labour. Men and women of proven worth and experience to guide the ship of state on to a new course.

          • Inspector General

            ♪ “The times, they are a-changing…”

          • carl jacobs

            The Inspector? Singing Dylan??

          • Inspector General

            Hard to believe, but there you have it. Right, where was a fellow. Oh yes, deep breath and ♪ “The times, they are a-changing…”

  • Dreadnaught

    If a remain vote carries the day it will be very interesting to see who is the next country to call for a referendum. The best outcome may possibly be that the EU itself takes the initiative to initiate reform or disband.

    • David

      Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas ! The fat-cat bureaucrats and fake politicos of the EU Empire will try to protect their precious monolith for as long as possible. Don’t underestimate their ability to block out reality.
      But even if they do grudgingly allow for some change, that will not stop the inevitable destruction. Remember the Soviet Union – it was after overdue and moderate reform was introduced by Gorby, that it just cracked wide open. I eagerly anticipate the death of the latest tyranny. At least, and unlike the old Soviet Empire, it has been a soft tyranny – so far !

      • Dreadnaught

        I have said more or less the same earlier on. Such focus has been drawn to this issue, especially now an MP has been murdered, I would hope that such a violent waste of a life, whatever the state of mind of her attacker, leaves an indelible mark in the political and public consciousness.

  • Dreadnaught

    This is a rather interesting site: https://nuclearpastor.com/about/g

  • IanCad

    The excellent Roger Scruton should be part of every Cranmer blogger’s Sunday morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07flhwb
    It goes some way to explaining why someone as mellow and shy as myself could respond to – or even advocate for – a call to arms, were betrayal the result of this unparliamentary surrender of duty and tradition..
    Referenda are divisive, irresponsible; perhaps a first step towards civil war.

    • Anton

      And are also how the people who invented democracy used the word.

  • INCIDENTALLY as I was worshiping and reflecting on my sins, God’s grace and other matters this morning in church, the thought came into my mind that I ought to make a donation to the Jo Cox memorial fund. I went to do so, and discovered that it will equally support 2 charities (Royal Volunteer Society and White Helmets), and the hard left campaigning organisation calling itself ‘Hope not Hate’. However, the web page of theirs I found myself directed to was full of hate directed against UKIP and Brexiteers, comparing us with mass murderers like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Bering Brevik and, like Polly Toynbee, demonising us for allegedly having created an atmosphere that caused the much lamented Mrs Cox’s foul and lawless murder.

    They are not getting a penny of my money.

    I have instead given my £50 to the White Helmets instead, which digs poor souls out of the rubble of bombed buildings in Syria. Mrs Cox supported this worthy charity. https://www.whitehelmets.org/ .

    Others may do whatever they please, but I think it is a pity that a political campaigning organisation of WHATEVER colour should be slipped into a charity appeal of this kind.

    • Inspector General

      Strewth! You’ve actually given a donation to an organisation with the word ‘white’ in its title!

      • The rescue workers depicted on the relevant web site were all brown men, Syrians who appear to be doing a very brave and merciful thing pulling victims from the rubble of bombed buildings.

        • Inspector General

          Your sin absolved, Dr Hayes…

          Next!

    • CliveM

      What we are seeing is the Left in action and shutting down debate. Immigration is their dirty little secret and they don’t want it discussed.

    • HedgehogFive

      Hope not hate?

      Bertrand Russell, on purely intellectual grounds, gave two succinct reasons for opposing the philosophy of Karl Marx: “one, that he was muddle-headed; and the other, that his thinking was almost entirely inspired by hatred.”

      And how about this, from Che Guevara? (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2004/09/the_cult_of_che.html)

      “Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …”

      • Ivan M

        Love is better than hate. But if hate is all you have, it will have to do.
        — paraphrasing Saul Bellow

        • HedgehogFive

          Paraphrasing? Do you have the original?

  • Dreadnaught

    I find it a rather ‘strange’ thing to take two young lads who have just lost their mother on a camping trip. Personally I would be in a state of shock and have grandparents drafted in to normalise their plight. Most odd.