Turkey EU 2
European Union

Should Christians vote for Turkey?

 

The most important ‘deal’ recently agreed by the EU is not the one negotiated by the UK for a bit of welfare tinkering, but the €6bn settlement with Turkey for stemming the flow of migrants and refugees into Europe, for which the EU has not only agreed to hasten Turkey’s admission to the European club, but also conceded visa-free travel for 77 million Turks under the provisions of the Schengen Agreement. The issue is profoundly humanitarian as well as financial, and it would be unwise not to attempt to address the appalling migration problem as near as possible to the source of suffering. And Turkey appears to be as near as we can get to Syria and Iraq, so it is Recep Tayyip Erdoğan with whom we must negotiate.

But the potential exodus of ‘Green Card’ Turks into Europe will make all those concerns about 30 million Romanians and Bulgarians pale into triviality. At the risk of being accused of ‘racism’, is it not a fact of history, religion and political culture that Turkey’s values are somewhat at variance with – if not alien to – those of Europe and the EU? One only has to consider Erdoğan’s penchant for harassing and incarcerating his political opponents, not to mention clamping down on ‘unfavourable’ media outlets, to incline toward the view that Turkey doesn’t really ‘belong’ in Europe – at least not the Europe of Christendom which stretches from the Atlantic to the Urals. And yet Turkey’s accession is supported by all mainstream political leaders in the UK and US, along with much of the mainstream media.

Some Eurosceptics support Turkey joining the EU in the belief simply that wider the Union becomes, the less deep it can be. Ergo, by bridging Christendom to the ‘Muslim world’, Turkish accession would fundamentally challenge Eurocentricism and bring a permanent end to “ever closer union”. But at what cost to European identity, not to mention European civilisation itself?

European countries share many common origins – Graeco-Roman classical paganism, Celtic culture, Christianity, Reformation, Renaissance, Romanticism, Enlightenment – which have influenced the various tribal groups throughout the continent and produced similarities in language, customs, architecture, literature, music, fine arts, and so on. This has bequeathed to us a common heritage, often broadly termed ‘Western’ . Countries which have not been subjected to these same complex social-historical forces are quite simply neither European nor Western.

It may be un-PC to state (as Pope Benedict XVI discovered in Regensburg), but it is a matter of historical record that Islam is a militant and aggrandising ideology constrained by 7th-century attitudes and values. As recently as 1683 it was kicking at the gates of Vienna, and has been consistently antagonistic toward the Christian world, whose lands it regards as the Dar al-Harb (‘house of war’) – populated by infidels who must be compelled by all means to submit to Allah. Followers of Mohammed who subscribe to this ‘robust’ expression of militant Islam cling to the letter of the Qur’an: ‘Those who fight Islam should be murdered or crucified or their hands and feet should be cut off on opposite sides’ (Surah 5:33). Muslims who take such words literally may be a small minority in Europe at the moment, but the granting of 77 million Turks visa-free admission could increase the EU’s Muslim population from 5% to 15% (and let’s not talk of the equally un-PC matter of the differential between the birthrates of Muslims and non-Muslims, which would hasten the looming cultural implosion, for the child born in the EU to the visa-free Turk is automatically a European citizen).

The Bosphorus is a psychological frontier. Rather like the English Channel, it sets apart the ‘other’, and guards against uncontrolled immigration, negative assimilation, over-population and environmental degradation. A nation which is moving from secular Kemalism to Islamism has no respect for European notions of Human Rights.  For Ankara to sup and fellowship equally with the capital cities of the European Union would be to dilute Europe and undermine the essentially Christian character of its identity. At least Pope Benedict XVI was aware of the grave danger Europeans would face if Turkey were to be admitted (or 77 million Turks granted visa-free movement), warning that Turkey could “try to set up a cultural continent with neighbouring Arab countries and become the protagonist of a culture with its own identity”.

Turkey in the EU would destabilise our political culture, giving the country as many votes as Germany in the EU’s decision-making machinery. In fact, on current demographic trends, Turkey’s population will soon surpass that of Germany: by 2050, they may number as many 100 million – all with visa-free travel along the highways and byways of the European Union. They no longer need full EU membership. The French no longer need to assert their constitutional referendum prerogative on Turkish accession. If 1-1.5 million Turkish citizens were to make the journey across the Bosphorus each year, it doesn’t need much political insight or spiritual discernment to appreciate how that level of migration might impact on mobilising the far right in just about every European country, with God knows what implications for civil peace, national security and social stability.

  • sarky

    It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

    • Anton

      I think His Grace was already on to that parallel in the title he chose.

      • Pubcrawler

        Shhhh. Don’t rain on his parade.

  • Dreadnaught

    Nevermind the presence of a dominant Islamic nation in secular Europe – Automatic acceptance of millions of ‘migrants’ via Turkish registration. Absolute lunacy.

    • dannybhoy

      Is it an essential condition for politicians that they remain pig-ignorant of history?

      • Dreadnaught

        Why do you think we have stopped the inclusion of compulsory history lessons at age 14?

        • dannybhoy

          I don’t know w-
          This is no time for jokey one liners Dreaders, this is serious stuff.
          Its potentially the biggest act of self harming ever contemplated by Western civilisation..

          • Dreadnaught

            What I said was not a joke, its what has happened here in the UK. A nation unaware of itself is not a nation at all and being primed to see itself a just another part of Europe ie the EU.

          • dannybhoy

            Well,
            I repeat..
            “It’s potentially the biggest act of self harming ever contemplated by Western civilisation..”

          • Dreadnaught

            If we never agree on anything else: we agree on that.

    • bluedog

      ‘TTIP comes of age the same business moguls will be able to sue countries bold enough to challenge their methods.’

      Probably not if the politicians finally wake up to the risks of this sort of legislation. It does after all challenge the sovereignty of parliaments.

      The US is offering these highly conditional trade deals across both the Atlantic and the Pacific, possibly as part of a China containment initiative, itself currently the focus of much US diplomatic energy. In the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations both Australia and NZ walked out, until the US dropped the clauses permitting business to sue government for commercially adverse acts.

      Would the EU negotiators understand and protect national sovereignty on that basis? Almost certainly not, as the EU’s function is to extinguish national sovereignty. Yet another argument in favour of Brexit.

      • Ivan M

        The TPP is for the corporations. Most people who read the conditions understand this. China hopes to be benefit from it by continuing to be the “Manchester” of the world. US corporations can rake in billions by trading on their name and market controls. The Indians want no part of it, since we do not wish to be lackeys.

  • As recently as 1683 [Islam] was kicking at the gates of Vienna

    As recently as 2016, 25·5 per cent of French teenagers described themselves as Muslim, closing in on Christians (a total of 33·2 per cent) and No Religion (38·8 per cent). With or without Turkey, Europe is turning Muslim, thanks to the immigration policies of the ‘mainstream political leaders’ whom Europeans have been misguided enough to elect and re-elect for the last half-century and more.

    When you’re in a hole, it’s generally a good idea to stop digging. The rise of the far right is evidence of spades being laid aside. It remains to be seen, though, whether Europeans have the necessary resolve to reclaim their homeland. Perhaps each succeeding generation will simply continue passing the time bomb to the next, and breathing a sigh of relief that they didn’t have to defuse it.

    • dannybhoy

      For once, one of your comments I can agree with.

  • Anton

    Another reason to quit the EU. And fast.

  • Maalaistollo

    Why the concern? This is merely furthering and accelerating the European Project, which all right-thinking people support. A vote for the EU is a vote for the Caliphate.

    • The Explorer

      Why the concern? Because we’re wrong-thinking people.

  • Lew Perry

    I’d let them in. Better to deal with muslims rather than dealing with the illiberal left.

    Let them pick the fruits of their work.

    I’d laught with the thought of an European Parliament dominated by the Turks.

  • Anton

    They were experiencing trouble admitting Turkey to the EU, so they admitted the Turks.

    In better days this would have been regarded as treason. But just why do they do it? They surely know that it will cause suffering for their own grandchildren.

    And by the way, exactly who negotiated this deal on behalf of the EU?

    • dannybhoy

      ” But just why do they do it? They surely know that it will cause suffering for their own grandchildren.”
      That is surely the heart of the matter, and again I recommend people read Melanie Phillips book “The World Turned Upside Down” for some background info as to how the West has some to the stage where it actually wants to commit cultural suicide..

  • len

    The possibility/probability of Turkey becoming a member of the EU could have some interesting ramifications.’ Istanbul’ was formerly ‘Constantinople’ when Constantine moved the capital of the Roman empire to Turkey.
    IF the Roman Empire is ‘reviving’ Turkey would play a major role.
    The Roman empire would then have’ two legs’ (Rome and Istanbul) very significant for anyone who follows Bible Prophecy. ‘The false prophet’ would undoubtedly come from Rome and the ante- Christ from the Muslim Nations.
    Christians know we are in’ the end of days’ and Biblical Prophecies are being revealed and the only question I would ask is should Christians vote for events that they know would speed up the inevitable or vote to prolong the end?.

    • Anton

      I have always regarded Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul as the outstanding candidate for the endtime world capital described in the Book of Revelation as a new Babylon. Its ancient centre was, like Rome’s built on seven hills, it is on the border between the two dominant faith systems that deny Jesus’ divinity (one theistic, one not), it has been capital of the Roman Empire and of the Caliphate, and Napoleon once said that if all the world were a single State then Constantinople would be its capital (for its location).

      • Ivan M

        Isn’t that the reason Constantine built the city in the first place; a new city to become the capital of the world?

        • Anton

          Pretty much. Although his instructions to kill his wife and son (by another wife), whom he may have caught in bed, are conjectured to have made Rome unbearable for him.

          • Ivan M

            Those Romans…

    • sarky

      Christians have been in the end times for over 2000 years, the disciples themselves believed jesus would return in their lifetime.

      How about you stop worrying about the end and try to fix the now.

      • The Explorer

        Your view of the End has a bearing on how you conduct yourself in the Now. That’s Len’s point.

        • sarky

          That’s what’s scary, especially American fundamentalists.

          • The Explorer

            Your view of the End will determine your view of the Now. It applies to all of us. The Iranian view of the End, and the need to bring it about, is a good deal scarier than American fundamentalists.

          • sarky

            Which is why religion is the biggest threat we face.

          • The Explorer

            At the moment, certainly. But it wasn’t the case in the Cold War. (Unless one argues that Marxism’s view of the withering away of the State was ‘Revelation’ secularised.)

          • len

            The biggest threat the world faces is to be totally’ in the dark’ as to what is happening in the spiritual world and the impact the spiritual has on the physical world..There is a war going on between the forces of evil on one side and the God of the Bible on the other.

            The is no’ neutrality’ in this war you are either with God or against him.ALL those who reject Christ are in rebellion against the Creator and have sided with the forces of darkness not necessarily by design but by default.

          • sarky

            Cobblers.

          • len

            Don`t see how shoe makers will help?.

          • sarky

            I choose neither.

          • Merchantman

            Ouch. The bar is set high so one has to take a leap of faith.

          • carl jacobs

            What is a “fundamentalist”?

          • dannybhoy

            Do you think perhaps you might have been a dodge’m car in a former existence Sarks?
            Talk about a change of tack…

          • sarky

            Not at all, some fundamentalists are planning to rebuild the temple on the mount (I’ve seen the plans) to usher in the second coming.

          • dannybhoy

            I know that but I was pointing out how you went from

            “Christians have been in the end times for over 2000 years, the disciples themselves believed jesus would return in their lifetime.
            How about you stop worrying about the end and try to fix the now.”
            to,
            “Christians are responsible for the downturn in Christianity.”

            Then Explorer explains,
            “Your view of the End has a bearing on how you conduct yourself in the Now. That’s Len’s point.”
            (which was Len’s point)
            And so you brought in..
            “That’s what’s scary, especially American fundamentalists.”
            The Christians on this blog are always talking about the issues Archbishop Cranmer raises. Some are active in different spheres, churches and organisations, Christian social and political.
            We do care about the now and we do our best for our society as we see it.
            So Len was quite right in what he said, and your fundamentalist bit was a red herring.

        • As Christians, it shouldn’t make any difference.

          • The Explorer

            When Allenby entered Jerusalem, it was seen by some as a fulfilment of prophecy. Like it or not, prophecy influences politics.
            Christianity would be much simpler if prophecy, like Election, did not exist as a concept, but both do and we cannot ignore either.
            Within Protestantism, reaction to the idea of a closed future has given rise to the Open Theology that Calvinists regard as heresy. Postmillennialism thinks the global expansion of the Church will usher in the Millennium. How would it respond to HG’s latest post? . In my view, it is influenced by C19 views of progress, rather than by the Bible, and does not take account of ‘Matthew’ 24. Augustine’s view of the Millennium as the period between First and Second Coming seems to me much sounder.
            Oedipus did all he could to avoid his personal prophecies, and his efforts brought them about. Macbeth is told he will be king. Will that happen if he does nothing, or only if he acts? That’s the sort of question Len is asking, and it’s a good one.

          • Ivan M

            I think the pattern is apparent mainly in hindsight. Some of the predictions have the character of literary tautologies –

            If all the world rejects Christ,
            then Judgement has been passed.

            When the Gospels have been preached to the four corners of the Earth, then we await the Saviour.

            The awesome literary qualities of the Bible, make the Prophetic mode inevitable and therefore true statements about the world.

            Just some incoherent thoughts to tag onto your post.

          • Just do what is right and motivated by Christian principles and leave the rest to God, is what Jack says.

          • Perhaps, but only if he’d received a personal revelation assigning him a particular, explicit task. Scriptural prophecy is very broad brush, meant for the Church and is open to many and varied understandings.

      • len

        The now is unfixable the end IS the fix..

        • sarky

          Arhh right, so that’s your excuse to do nothing. Well done you.

          • len

            Doing nothing is not an option.
            The Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone out to the Nations of the Earth what you do with that is your option….

          • Dreadnaught

            Len you and others seem resigned to accept whatever becomes of our country you will be ok because when you life ends you will experience another life beyond the grave. Give a little thought to the generations behind yours who will be enduring physical life in the mess left behind.
            It pisses me of greatly to read of Christians gleefully heaping blame on everyone but themselves in the smug belief that ‘I’m alright Jackasses, I’ll be on my way to paradise’.
            I hate to mention it but ‘paradise’ has already been infiltrated by dragoons of suicide bombers and rampant boozy virgins by all accounts.
            Some things never change.
            .

          • len

            Atheists are directly responsible for the downturn in Christianity which has left the door wide open to Muslim extremists.
            Atheists have ‘gleefully’helped destroy Christianity and ripped up our Judeo /Christian foundations
            And now instead of manfully accepting responsibility for that the Atheists blame the Christians. Man up and take responsibility!.

            And Muslim murderers are in the pit of hell which is their only recompense.

          • Dreadnaught

            Blame, blame, blame…

          • len

            IF you create a vacuum what happens next?

          • Dreadnaught

            Len: You and your fellow Christians created the vacuum when Christianity split itself as mentioned above; and went on splitting into ever smaller factions.
            When Orthodoxy split between East and West. When Catholics burned Protestants. When Protestants burned Catholics. When Puritans could could not be puritanical enough. When Protestants were not Calvanic enough. Methodists, Baptists, Adventists etc etc.
            No Christianity is the architect of its own demise – that’s why you don’t align with any Church isn’t it?

          • len

            Don`t confuse ‘Christianity’ with ‘the Church’ the two are not mutually inclusive.
            The ‘State Church ‘became corrupted centuries ago when Constantine paganized it and the Church has (as you say) split and carried on splitting.The Reformers attempted to put the Church back on track but corruption has crept in again.

            Christianity as’ a religion’ is the architect of its own demise because it has separated itself from God`s truth and Integrity, in short the Church has sold itself for a price much as a harlot does.Christianity as a relationship with Christ endures and will continue to endure.

            But to further complicate matters some true believers are IN the State Church not because of it but despite it.This is’ the good wheat’ mixed with ‘the weeds.’

            Where aggressive Atheists have damaged the Gospel is when they have ridiculed denigrated and done all to put off those interested in even hearing/or being able to hear the Gospel and making a judgement for themselves.

          • sarky

            The message cannot be that strong if people are so easily dissuaded.

          • William Lewis

            On the contrary. The message has consequences for how you live your life. That is too strong for many.

          • len

            The message of the full Gospel is an offence to those who prefer darkness to Light.
            That is why Christians are prevented from preaching the full Gospel.

          • sarky

            No they are not.

          • Dreadnaught

            Which gospels have been damaged and what do you mean by aggressive atheists?

          • len

            Christianity has been deliberately marginalised,our entire education system has become’ cathedrals to Atheism’.
            The media depicts Christians as weirdos, nutters, and serial killers.

            Christians are not allowed to preach the full Gospel on pain of ending up incarcerated.

          • sarky

            Christians are responsible for the downturn in Christianity.

          • len

            Christian leaders share some of the blame, you of course are blameless.

          • sarky

            How have i stopped people going to church?
            It’s you who have been weak and not made the argument. It’s Christians who have been inward looking and not engaged. The biggest mistake Christians have made is when they say ‘we are in the world, but not of the world’. You have isolated yourselves into irrelevance.

          • len

            I am making the argument but are you listening?

          • In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul gives a number of signs that the Second Coming is approaching. The first was this: “Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion (the apostasia) comes first”

          • len

            The apostasy is here right now look at the church!.I don`t just mean the RCC the Protestant Church as well.

          • We’re not there, Len. There is still faith in Jesus Christ
            although all the Christian churches are folding.

            One of the overlooked signs that the Second Coming near is the corporate conversion of the Jewish people. Paul is clear about this in Romans 11 where he teaches that after the First Coming of Christ the Jewish people as a body (though not every individual) rejected the Messiah so that the Gospel might bring salvation to the Gentiles. However, when “the full number of the Gentiles [has] come in,” the Gospel will turn back to the Jewish people and as a body (though not necessarily every individual) they will accept the Messiah.

            Where are the mass conversions of the Jewish people?

            Paul speaks of the apostasy elsewhere. He tells us, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1). “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4; cf. 3:1-5). Jesus Himself speaks of it when he asks, “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Luke 18:8).

            What will those who fall away from Christianity be falling away to? In the New Testament, the idea of falling away from Christianity would mean a return to either paganism or Judaism. The fact that at the end-time the Jewish people will be converting to Christ indicates that it will not be Judaism for which many Christians leave but a new paganism.

            We are possibly at an intermediate stage with people falling away to other religious options – atheism, agnosticism, New Age movement, socialism. Eventually a new form of paganism will develop and become dominant in Europe, possibly something akin to National Socialism.
            Then enter the Man of Lawlessness ….

          • len

            What will be ‘all’ of Israel?.
            Suppose 90% of Israel were destroyed 10% would be ‘all’ of Israel?.

          • The Explorer

            And does ‘all’ of Israel, mean Israel throughout history, rather than the Israel involved in the end of things? Does it include those who callled for the crucifixion, who did not now what they were doing? Also, if God hardened the hearts of the Jews so that Christianity would spread to the Gentiles, as in ‘Romans’ 11, can the Jews who did not believe be blamed for not believing? After all, God made it impossible for them to do so.

          • You haven’t read those articles on freewill and predestination yet, have you?

          • The Explorer

            Not yet. Have assigned a slot this weekend. On the other hand, other readers need to think about their answers to these questions.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack gave you readings on Predestination and Free will? Consider the source.

          • The Explorer

            I have. They’re by Father William Most, who is always well worth reading. Bear in mind that to read is not necessarily to agree, but to examine explanations that are well thought through (as Most’s are) is to have one’s understanding expanded.

          • carl jacobs

            Fair enough. It’s just that sound theology and Roman Catholicism generally inhabit different planets. So guard your wallet. As it were. 😉

          • Fear, Carl?

          • carl jacobs

            Oh, no. The right person got the message.

          • They are what provoked the Reformation and continue to divide Christians to this day. From the answers flow a series of other theological formulations.

          • That would follow.

          • Dreadnaught

            The Christians, with their turn the other cheek logic don’t have the courage of their faith to take to the streets in protest against Mosque building but I bet you they will tut-tut at the like of the EDL while selling their empty churches to the Muslims.

          • len

            Its aggressive atheists who have ‘let the door open’ to the Muslims and everybody will pay the price for that?

          • Dreadnaught

            I take it you don’t wish to respond. That’s understandable.

          • len

            You certainly do not wish to listen?

          • carl jacobs

            So what do you want us to fix, sarky? You tell us we are marginal and irrelevant. How are we supposed to fix anything if we are marginal and irrelevant? But let’s leave that aside.

            What are we supposed to fix? Do you want us to fix human nature? We can’t do that. People are the way they are, and that isn’t going to change. Human nature is what len was talking about btw. What len was talking about and what you were talking about are two totally different things. Len was talking about sin and everything that proceeds from it. So when len said it’s “unfixable” he meant that the existence and consequence of sin cannot be removed. You are talking about mitigating the consequences of sin. Yes, you can play around the edges. But most of what you are dealing with is your own doing. You don’t really want it “fixed” because you don’t want to give up the freedom you claimed by breaking things in the first place.

            You want us to fix the “now.” Can we make people chose to have children? No. Can we make them form stable families? No. Can we make them prefer the obligations that attach from virtue instead of chasing after their own happiness and self-indulgence? No. We can say “Stop doing that.” But we will be told “Keep your fundamentalist opinions to yourself!” So then. You will live with the consequences of your own self-indulgence. And those consequences will be severe.

            You have a growing a unassimilated Muslim population. You have relentless pressure from Muslim immigration. You have had a fertility rate below replacement for two generations. You are possessed of existential fear caused by the thought of losing cultural dominance. Your gov’t is beholden to a worldview that is completely incapable of dealing with this situation. Yet you still live in a culture obsessed with personal gratification, and wedded to the idea that children are simply an option and not an obligation. How long do you think this situation can be sustained before either a) that secular liberal gov’t is replaced by a malignant advocate of race war or b) you lose cultural dominance to demographic change? And yet you say “Fix the Now.”

            Fix it yourself, Physician. It’s your [expletive deleted] worldview that brought this about, You kicked us to the curb years ago. It’s your problem. Not ours. We are marginalized and irrelevant. Remember? Christians are just along for the ride – like pedestrians caught in the surge of the Tsunami. Wrong place. Wrong time.

            Too bad, Christian. You suffer like the rest. But remember. This is not the whole of life. There is an end to things. And a beginning that follows. Remember that when you are being smashed about in the tsunami. Remember that as you are dying. Or if you happen to survive.

          • Ivan M

            That’s a worthy jeremaid, sir.

          • sarky

            “It’s your worldview that brought this about, you kicked us to the kerb years ago”

            Yes, and you went out with a whimper not a roar.

          • William Lewis

            That’s a bit feckless, Sarky. Even by your standards.

          • sarky

            Maybe, but true.

          • William Lewis

            It ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

          • carl jacobs

            That’s it? That’s the best response you could put together?

          • The Explorer

            How we went out is not the issue. Carl’s point is that, however it happened, Christians are marginalised and therefore unable to influence events. What happens will be determined by the decisions of the secular majority. The future of Europe lies with you, not with us.

          • Just look how Christianity actually started. The faith has been down and abandoned before but kept alive by faithful followers. It will either return after man experiences the alternative, or Christ Himself will return.

          • sarky

            Or it will just go the way of other religions.

          • Findaráto

            … and it is told that the faithful queen Tar-Míriel strove to reach the sacred peak of the Meneltarma and pray to Ilúvatar for salvation before the downfall of the isle of Númenor, but the great wave swept her away from the steep side of the Holy Mountain …

            carl jacobs sees himself in such dramatic terms. But if he doesn’t want to share poor old Tar-Míriel’s fate, he’s going to have to do something drastic, isn’t he? Sitting there bitching about how evil everyone else is won’t save his bacon. That’s what Tar-Míriel did and look where that got her.

            I wonder what God’s response will be when he appears before the throne in his current state of high dudgeon with his arms folded and a sour expression on his face claiming that none of what happened was his fault.

            Well no, I don’t really wonder that because there is no God and there is no throne. But the image is an amusing one in that it paints a picture of how the embittered Christian uses everyone else’s “sin” as his excuse for sitting on his (generally) fat ass and doing nothing except to obsess over his own salvation. Which renders the only time of consciousness he has – his earthly life – burdensome and unhappy.

            In worrying so much about a non-existent future, he neglects to live in the here and now. And there you have the ultimate punishment for the stupidity of religion.

          • Ivan M

            Whereas you dream of making yourself a self-contained biodigester unit, in Ouroboros fashion. I am sure that is a worthy goal for a human being.

          • More:
            French Arsehole’s Ridiculous Twaddle.

          • One of Mundabor’s more sensitive articles: “How to Defend the Family”.
            https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2016/03/18/how-to-defend-the-family/

    • Your speculation about the End Times may or may not be accurate. However, a nation cannot plan its foreign policy on interpretations of Revelation, and neither should an individual’s voting intentions be based on this.

      • len

        Europe does not place any value on the Word of God and that’s the main problem…

        • That’s a different issue. We cannot go around reading biblical prophecy as if it were an almanac.

          • Anton

            Who’s “we”? You admit to bafflement at the endtime scriptures, so please don’t project your bafflement onto others. I agree that no man knows the year of Christ’s return but He gave some clear signs to watch for, on the Mt of Olives.

          • Jack would only experience “bafflement” if he attempted to ‘read’ specific world events, in particular developments in the Middle East, through the lens of his interpretation of biblical prophecy.

            One of the most overlooked signs that the Second Coming is approaching is the corporate conversion of the Jewish people. This is something that Paul is very clear about. In Romans 11, he explains after the First Coming of Christ the Jewish people as a body (though not every individual) rejected the Messiah so that the gospel might bring salvation to the Gentiles. However, when “the full number of the Gentiles [has] come in,” the gospel will turn back to the Jewish people and as a body they will accept the Messiah. So when we see massive numbers of Jewish conversions to Christ, that is a sign we are nearing the end.

          • len

            Why would God give us His Word if He knew we could not understand it?.Or why would God entrust His Word to a group of men whom He knew would corrupt His Word?.
            The answer is He didn`t.

            ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the
            truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears,
            and he will tell you what is yet to come’.(John 16;13)

          • Len, Scripture is given to the People of God, Christ’s Body, the Church, to reveal God’s Truths, to instruct us about His will for us and His plan of salvation. It is for the People of God, Christ’s Body, the Church, to interpret – not individuals.

          • Pubcrawler

            I usually lob a reference to the Ethiopian Eunuch into this sort of discussion: “Do you understand what you are reading?” “How can I, unless someone guides me?”

          • To which Len will reply: “The Holy Spirit guides me.”

          • Pubcrawler

            Probably. Yet he seems to reject the idea that the Spirit guides the Church.

          • He doesn’t accept an institutional/visible church – “religion” – but seems to believe in a collection of individuals.

          • len

            ‘Individuals’ includes the RCC.

          • Anton

            Agreed. The number of Jews who believe in Jesus in the Holy Land is reliably estimated to be as follows (from ch.5 of “Through my enemy’s eyes” by Lisa Loden and Salim Munayer. Before 1967 the number never exceeded 200; by the mid-1970s it was estimated at 300; by the end of the 1980s it was estimated at 2500-3000; by the end of the 1990s it was approximately 5000; today it is between 10,000 and 23,000. The most recent detailed survey isw that of K. Kjaer-Hansen and B.F. Skjøtt in 1999, Facts and Myths about the Messianic Congregations in Israel (Caspari Center, Jerusalem).

          • Hardly a flood of converts given it is expected the people will convert corporately. Israel remains a secular state with recent polls indicating 40% regard themselves as secular Jews and, from memory, with less than 2% of the population being Christian.

          • Anna055

            Arresting figures though ….I’ve just had fun making a graph of them and they certainly look like the early days of an exponential growth pattern. It’ll be interesting to see if that continues.

          • Anton

            It matches the start of an exponential curve and even at today’s number is historically unprecedented.

          • The Explorer

            Totally agree. Especially with the final sentence.

          • len

            Gods Word of Prophecy is given for our edification.

            ‘For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so
            that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the
            encouragement they provide we might have hope’.(Romans 15;4)

            If we have a blind hope that our religious organisation (even if it were run by a group of people proven to be corrupt) were to give us truth and pure truth uncontaminated by worldly desires we leave ourselves wide open to deception.

    • Dreadnaught

      Yeah, and they carry black flags in the way that Islam has always carried black flags to terrorise anyone anywhere since the 6th Century. Not so much a prophecy as a ‘cultural’ norm.

      • len

        Have you not noticed the rise of militant Islam, you surprise me…

      • Ivan M

        Two nations will go to war and only one of them will win.

        — from the prophesies of Nostradamus as interpreted by Woody Allen.

        • The Explorer

          Always the possibility of a stalemate. Or a Pyrrhic victory.

    • Ivan M

      In this nightmare scenario, thousands of Jews and Christians in Mosul and Baghdad are massacred. Many more thousands of Jews and Christians are tortured to death in Aleppo and Damascus. Others are blown to bits in Lebanon and Turkey. Although the controlled press tells us that they are mainly Muslims, they are blinded by Satan who throws a smokescreen for the coming of his trusted lieutenant, the Mahdi. Last seen driven out by Lord Kitchener in the Soudan. I can see brethren, this prophecy unerringly fulfilled even unto the last jot and tittle..

  • The Explorer

    As I understand it, asylum seekers are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe EU country they come to. So how do any get as far as Calais, with so many safe havens along the way? In practice, it seems, once within the EU, you can go anywhere where Schengen holds sway.

    Turkey has been letting immigrants pass through to Europe. So is this deal the price (or bribe, or blackmail) for keeping them out of Turkey? The Turkish border becomes the new European frontier?

    Best scenario. Immigrants stop flooding Europe. Turks flood it instead?
    Worst scenario. The Schengen principle applies. Immigrants still get into Turkey, and once in, they can go anywhere? Europe is now flooded with both Turks and immigrants?

    • CliveM

      As I understand it, we get to return illegal immigrants, provided Turkey gets to replace them with ‘legal’ immigrants, they get fast track EU membership, their citizens get special rights of access and Turkey also gets a £2.2b bung to try harder at stopping the illegals.

      Where the EU benefits in all this is hard to see.

      The purpose is to give Merkel some sort of political fig leaf and it’s costing us lots.

      • Anton

        Not us, we’re not part of the Schengen agreement. But it’s absurd and a betrayal of the peoples of Europe by their treacherous treasonous traitorous leaders.

        • dannybhoy

          If we remain in we will be expected to help pay for the whole process. It will be an absolute disaster for Europe’s future.

        • CliveM

          Well yes I was using we as in the EU, because although it only initially affects the Shengen countries, from what I understand (I maybe wrong) he money comes from the whole of the EU including us, and obviously if we are still members, Turkish membership will affect us.

          But yes will try to be more precise in future.

  • HedgehogFive

    Not to mention the enemy within. There is a propensity of people with an axe to grind to take up the cause of Muslim activists, and to make accusations of Islamophobia. This reminds the Hedgehog of this story from the Middle East:

    Two students were sharing a room in college.

    One of them was a very selfish young man. Whenever his doting mother sent him a cake, he would sit on the other’s bed to eat it, leaving the other to clear up the crumbs.

    One day, the other student felt pushed beyond endurance. “That’s enough”, he shouted. “Tomorrow I eat xzitt on your bed!”

    • Ivan M

      Please explain the last sentence.

      • HedgehogFive

        Do you mean the logic of the action, or my mis-spelling of a common expression for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faeces ?

        • Ivan M

          I get it now, just don’t go the Linus route to literary notoriety. One of him is enough.

  • Once Turkey enters the EU, they will leave the door wide open for the rest of the Islamic world. Muslims from everywhere will apply for Turkish passports and in about 50 years, Europe will be subsumed into the ME.

    • The Explorer

      Turkey could not defeat Europe while it was Christian, but may do so now that Europe has ceased to be Christian.

      • Istanbul was once the centre of Christendom, and that should be a warning to those who turn their backs on God. The reformation in Europe ensured that it did not share the same fate as the Christians of the ME. It is sad that Europe has forgotten the great danger that they escaped in the past. Only a revival can now save Europe.

        • Think you’ll find Europe was saved from Islam way before the reformation.

          • The Fall of Constantinople took place only about 50 years before the Reformation. Istanbul was then part of Europe and it was not spared the Islamic conquest.

          • Christian Europe was already divided between East and West prior to the Fall of Constantinople and had been since 1054. Constantinople had been weak and unstable for centuries.

          • bluedog

            Constantinople was only weak and unstable after the Fourth Crusade of 1204 sacked the city instead of attacking the Saracens. A geopolitical blunder for which we are still paying the price. Extremely weak Latin kingdoms were then established in the Byzantine lands and these fell by 1261, with the restoration of Byzantine rule.

            Taking a step back, the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 in which the Byzantine Army was defeated by the Seljuc Turks had lead to the invasion of Anatolia by the Turkish umma. So the Turks have form in this and they know the right strategy as part of their ‘deep state’ race memory. Erdogan is an unashamed Islamist. He rightly sees a fatal weakness in Europe which he is capably exploiting for the glory of Islam.

            Crippled by the multicultural agenda of the Frankfurt School, the idiots in Brussels are incapable of an effective response.

          • Agree with that. And let’s not forget the “Massacre of the Latins”, a large-scale massacre of the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Constantinople (60,000?) by the Eastern Orthodox population in May 1182.

            The division of Christianity, because of territorial and economic rivalries between East and West, was the fatal backdrop. And Western Europe is weak today because the Christian nations are divided and weak.

          • Old Nick
          • Stirring stuff ….

          • dannybhoy

            Pompous idiots wedded to a self destructive ideology which could put their own grandchildren into slavery.

          • Anton

            Jack surely means the battle in France by which Charles Martel pushed the Muslims back across the Pyrenees in 732AD, while Constantinople had thrown back the anticlockwise arm of Islam round the Mediterranean 14 years earlier.

          • dannybhoy

            That’s how I understand it too.

          • The wars between Islam and Europe did not end there. Right up to 1492 when Ferdinand and Isabella took Granada from the Moors, the Muslims occupied parts of Spain. The Ottoman Empire controlled parts of Europe right up to the eighteenth century.

          • Pubcrawler

            Not the end, no. Nor the beginning of the end. But the first turning back of the tide. Can it be turned back again?

          • I see what you mean. 732 AD was was only about a 100 years after Mohammed.

          • Ivan M

            The Reformers were there in force at the Gates of Vienna, just ask Jan Sobieski, usually mistaken for a Catholic Pole. They were there at Lepanto, right at the side of Don Juan again mistaken as a Catholic half brother of mad Phillip II. Then when Nicholas I as inheritor of the Third Rome, pressed to take Istanbul, he was stopped by the forces of Her Catholic Majesty, Victoria of India and the High Seas. The treachery of the Catholics knows no bounds.

          • Nicholas I sought to partition the Ottoman Empire and establish a protectorate over the Orthodox Christian population of the Balkans.

            In 1854, protestant Britain and France, along with the Kingdom of Sardinia and the Ottoman Empire joined forces to defeat Christian Russia.

          • Ivan M

            And made the legend of the “Sick Man of Europe”. Russia with Dostoevsky, Pushkin, The Virgin of Kazan, Tchaikovski and Tolstoi remained part of the “Asiatic horde”. British propaganda worked overtime to paint the Russians as a nation of drunken, and rutting muzaks. Only yesterday Boris, of the Trump haircut was all agog to let Turkey in the EU. I wonder if he has changed his mind.

          • Findaráto

            Drunken and rutting muzak?

            What do you do in lifts and hotel lobbies then? The mind boggles!

            I think you’ll find the term you’re looking for to describe a Russian peasant is “muzhik”, or “moujik” as it’s sometimes rendered.

            “Muzak” is the brand name of an American background music distribution service for retail stores and other public places like hotel lobbies, lifts, etc.

            I don’t know why I’m surprised. Malaprops abound when Sun-reading Christians come over all “inty-leck-chuw” and try to punch above their philosophical weight.

            Really, it makes one wonder whether former generations weren’t on to something when they restricted the vote to a class that had the means to educate its offspring.

          • The Explorer

            Do Malaprops exist? I thought the term was ‘Malapropisms.’?

            Really, it makes one wonder whether former generations weren’t on to something when they restricted the vote to a class that had the means to educate its offspring.

          • William Lewis

            DFTT

          • The Explorer

            In London London or Londres? Either, but one needs to specify the language one is using.

          • William Lewis

            I don’t follow

          • The Explorer

            Londres means London in French, but not in English. Malaprop may mean malapropism in French, but does not exist in English. It may exist in American English because they get confused with the spelling if they add the ‘ism’.

          • William Lewis

            Yes, but I was suggesting that you not feed the troll (hence DFTT).

          • The Explorer

            This could be the malapropgate that brings down Findarato. As pissoiregate did for his predecessor.

          • William Lewis

            DFTT is in the Urban Dictionary. It is does not mean the dictionary itself. Here is a definition for DFTT I found online. You may (or may not) be surprised at how well it fits Linus’ contributions:

            “Don’t feed the trolls.

            When someone responds to a message board troll the way it was intended by that troll, someone with more common sense will make this statement.

            Post #1: God you people are stupid. All of you!

            Post #2: WTF? Why are you calling us stupid? That’s just not nice.

            Post #3: ^dfft”

            I am not suggesting that you are reacting to Linus in this way. I am suggesting that you do not respond at all when he is in any way abusive.

          • The Explorer

            I realised about DFTT as soon as I’d typed it, and deleted it, but not soon enough,

          • IrishNeanderthal

            According to Wikipedia (Malapropism)

            The word “malapropism” (and its earlier variant, “malaprop”) comes from a character named “Mrs. Malaprop” in Richard Brinsley Sheridan’s 1775 play The Rivals.

          • The Explorer

            Words are fascinating. Chaucer uses ‘gotten’. English emigrants took ‘gotten’ to America and preserved it. The English themselves shortened it to ‘got’.

            When Francis Child wanted the oldest versions of ballads he found some examples among the mountain men of the Alleghenies. The native English had produced new versions of the lyrics, but emigrants had preserved the originals.

            That’s probably why ‘malaprop’ exists in American Englsih, while in English English it became ‘malapropism’.

          • Findaráto

            Malaprop is a perfectly acceptable variant. Check it out in any reputable English dictionary and find examples of usage in the works of many respected authors.

          • The Explorer

            Interestingly, my spellchecker underlined it when I typed it, but not malapropism.

          • Pubcrawler

            He employs some of their spelling idiosyncrasies, too.

          • carl jacobs

            We are the standard. By definition we have no “spelling idiosyncrasies”.

          • Pubcrawler

            If you say so…

          • Findaráto

            Malaprop is an abbreviation or informal usage of the word malapropism, to be sure. But none the less correct for that.

            Funny how dyed-in-the-wool conservatives rely on evil American innovations like spell checkers to validate their spelling and usage of the language. Too lazy to get your Oxford English dictionary down from the shelf and dust it off, eh? How do you expect to save the world from evil Atheists if you can’t even make a simple effort like that?

          • The Explorer

            The spell checker came with the package on my new laptop. When I used XP on my old computer to contribute to Cranmer, the spell checker function wasn’t there.

            I have half a dozen dictionaries, spanning forty years. The oldest only recognises ‘malapropism’. The most recent recognises ‘malaprop’ as a version used in American English. That is not to disparage American English: merely to identify a difference in usage. But since you have a problem with Americans, I am surprised to find you siding with their usages.

          • Findaráto

            I have a problem with Americans, do I? News to me.

            I have a problem with some Americans. Especially the holier-than-thou variety that visits this site. But most Americans are perfectly well-behaved, innocuous people, and some are even quite well educated.

            American English variants are perfectly acceptable. I have no problem with colour or color, aluminium or aloomanim, futile or fudill (and yes, I know that’s not how you spell them…)

            Only narrow minded bigots with tribal minds insist that their variant of a language is the only acceptable one.

          • The Explorer

            “I have a problem with Americans, do I? News to me.”

            “You certainly turn me off, but then most Americans do. Something about the corn fed look just doesn’t work for me.” (Statement to Carl Jacobs on the previous thread.)

            I’ll leave you, and other readers, to interpret that.

          • Ivan M

            He is stuck in a Beach Boys song from the 60s.

          • The Explorer

            Even if he chooses to delete himself, I have preserved his words.

          • “All Alone”?

          • Pubcrawler

            Well, so long as he’s not stuck in a Beach Boy…

          • The ‘man’ is a goon. Jack wonders if now that you’ve embarrassed him on two counts, can we expect his account to disappear?

          • Findaráto

            I was merely commenting on the physical attractiveness of most Americans. As pretty much the fattest people on earth (there may be some South Pacific island nations where they’re fatter, but not by much), most of them are not a pleasure to look at. But that doesn’t affect their ability to speak English.

          • Ivan M

            That’s not what I.recall you saying about Americans. Then they were cornfed lardasses. Dammit keep your story straight man. As for damned spellcheckers the databases are in all probability keyed in by Indians from my part of India. I don’t think they have the authority of the OED.

          • William Lewis

            DFTT

          • Findaráto

            Heaving and bulging body mass does not alter one’s ability to speak the language correctly. Look at G.K. Chesterton, for example.

            Fatties may grunt and wheeze a little, but obesity does not impinge on correct English usage.

          • Like pissoir?

            Yes, we had a total tosser on here a while ago who thought himself a language expert. French on his father’s side. Made himself look a right prat by insisting he alone knew the correct spelling. It was an American who pointed out he was in error. Poor chap could take the humiliation. He was so embarrassed he deleted all his comments and his account. Truth be told most bloggers were glad to see the back of him.

            Used then name of Linus. Wonder what ever became of him.

          • Pubcrawler

            All the more amusing given that Findus produced Linus’ classic solecism twice on the previous thread.

          • The Explorer

            Findus may not know he’s from the same source as Linus, but we do.

          • Do point them out. He deserves the opportunity to learn from his errors. Plus, Jack could do with a laugh.

          • Pubcrawler

            Do you know why it’s said that carrots help you see in the dark?

            His weakness is my advantage; I’m not giving away his ‘unique identifier’, it’s proved handy for spotting each reincarnation.

          • Jack promises he will keep it to himself.

          • The Explorer

            Quite. As a long-term Linus watcher, I’ve noticed it too.

          • Ivan M

            There was a Miss Malaprop, as I recall from Literature class.

          • bluedog

            So what’s wrong with the music of Kenny G?

          • carl jacobs

            Ummm … who?

            Yes, I googled him. It didn’t help.

          • bluedog

          • Ivan M

            Oh you are back in the building, is it?

      • Ivan M

        More like business interests have conspired to defeat Europe.

  • carl jacobs

    This is why I asked the question. I generally don’t reject the title when someone like you applies it to someone like me. But here you have associated it with a specific view of eschatology that doesn’t apply to me at all.

    An actual “Fundamentalist” would (metaphorically) boil me in oil. In a Christian context, a Fundamentalist is characterized by an anti-intellectual response to modernity. It’s Arminian, legalistic, and separatist. It deals with modernity by withdrawing from it. That isn’t me.

    If you are going to use this term, you need to say what you mean by it. I find most people who use it can’t give a definition. It’s become a scare word.

    • sarky

      a religious movement characterized by a strict belief in the literal interpretation of religious texts, especially within American Protestantism and Islam.

      • carl jacobs

        That definition falls at the first hurdle for it either includes every Christian or it includes none. What is a “strict belief in the literal interpretation of religious texts”? Care to try again?

  • IrishNeanderthal

    I have just been watching “Digging for Britain”. Tonight’s episode featured a hoard of coins, many of which may have been among those with which Æthelred the Unready tried to buy off the Danes.

    Turkgeld, anyone?

    • Pubcrawler

      “Turkgeld, anyone?”

      No thanks, I’m trying to give it up.

  • This might explain a few things. We need to Leave the EU asap.

    I was also reading that Herman von Rumpy and Angela Merkel have rec’d the Codenhove-kalergi European Prize.

    http://www.europeanguardian.com/78-uncategorised/europe/581-the-coudenhove-kalergi-plan-the-genocide-of-the-peoples-of-europe

    “The essence of the Kalergi plan

    In his book «Praktischer Idealismus», Kalergi indicates that the residents of the future “United States of Europe” will not be the People of the Old Continent, but a kind of sub-humans, products of miscegenation. He clearly states that the peoples of Europe should interbreed with Asians and colored races, thus creating a multinational flock with no quality and easily controlled by the ruling elite.

    Kalergi proclaims the abolition of the right of self-determination and then the elimination of nations with the use of ethnic separatist movements and mass migration. In order for Europe to be controlled by an elite, he wants to turn people into one homogeneous mixed breed of Blacks, Whites and Asians. Who is is this elite however? Kalergi is particularly illuminating on this:

    The man of the future will be of mixed race. The races and classes of today will gradually disappear due to the elimination of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-negroid race of the future, similar in appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples and the diversity of individuals. Instead of destroying European Judaism, Europe, against her will, refined and educated this people, driving them to their future status as a leading nation through this artificial evolutionary process. It’s not surprising that the people that escaped from the Ghetto-Prison, became the spiritual nobility of Europe. Thus, the compassionate care given by Europe created a new breed of aristocrats. This happened when the European feudal aristocracy crashed because of the emancipation of the Jews [due to the actions taken by the French Revolution]”

    • Ivan M

      Our friend JR wrote about this this a couple of years ago. I don’t understand why people feel the need to engineer society like this, when normal interactions would take care of it, over the course of time.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      I really don’t get what that fellow is saying about the Jews. Not even whether it is pro- or anti-Semitic.

      However, Chesterton has it right in this extract from http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/11505-h.htm#FRENCH_AND_ENGLISH

      It is obvious that there is a great deal of difference between being international and being cosmopolitan. All good men are international. Nearly all bad men are cosmopolitan. If we are to be international we must be national. And it is largely because those who call themselves the friends of peace have not dwelt sufficiently on this distinction that they do not impress the bulk of any of the nations to which they belong. International peace means a peace between nations, not a peace after the destruction of nations, like the Buddhist peace after the destruction of personality. The golden age of the good European is like the heaven of the Christian: it is a place where people will love each other; not like the heaven of the Hindu, a place where they will be each other. And in the case of national character this can be seen in a curious way. It will generally be found, I think, that the more a man really appreciates and admires the soul of another people the less he will attempt to imitate it; he will be conscious that there is something in it too deep and too unmanageable to imitate. The Englishman who has a fancy for France will try to be French; the Englishman who admires France will remain obstinately English. This is to be particularly noticed in the case of our relations with the French, because it is one of the outstanding peculiarities of the French that their vices are all on the surface, and their extraordinary virtues concealed. One might almost say that their vices are the flower of their virtues.

      This was first published in 1908, and is grimly prophetic about the uselessness of the Peace Palace in the Hague opened in 1913 by Carnegie and his friends.

      People really misunderstood Chesterton, thinking that when he wrote Britannia needs no Boulevards http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/americanisation.html that he was somehow implying that France didn’t need them either. In fact, quite the opposite.

      Coming back to Coudenhove-Kalergi and his racial theories: if a certain fellow with a toothbrush moustache was Scylla, C-K was Charybdis.

      • To my mind he means we can stand on our own two feet. A delightfully observant poem, thank you.
        There most certainly will be a large attendance when we declare our Independence!

        Regarding Kalergi, he was one hell of a dark and devilish, conflicted weirdo who’s first woman was a Jewess Ida Rowland, so not anti-Semitic, in fact the opposite.

        This whole European Union club is world war three in the making.

  • Christians voting for Turkey would be like turkeys voting for Christms.

  • O dear… It seemed so good too.

    • Pubcrawler

      If you say so…

      • Darter Noster

        Ouch! :o)

  • IanCad

    Look on the bright side.
    Another nail in the coffin for Cameron.
    Arab Spring, Libya, Syria. Come on you sturdy backbenchers. Rise! Shine! Become as men. Our country needs you.

  • Malcolm Smith

    Why do you need to pay Turkey to prevent illegal immigrants from using its soil to enter Europe? All you have to do is use the fleet to patrol the coastline and turn back every boat. Heck! That’s how we Australians stopped the boats: illegal immigrants coming through Indonesia were put on special lifeboats, towed to within a few miles of the Indonesian coast, then released with just enough fuel to get them back to Indonesia. Admittedly, some of the Greek islands are much closer to Turkey. But if the illegal immigrants get that far, don’t let them get any farther. If possible, push them back to Turkey. Otherwise, at least don’t let them get off the island. A few months ago there was a strike among the crews of the ferries which take illegal immigrants from the Greek islands to the mainland and – surprise! surprise! – a gap developed in the long line of invaders heading to Germany. If that fails, then close the borders ie if Greece lets them in, seal the Greek border.
    But whatever you do, don’t allow Turks unrestricted entry to Europe.

    • Ivan M

      The East Europeans and the Greeks will take care not to let the Turks in. I think there is some kind of shell game going on.

  • Inspector General

    Marvellous Turkey! 77 million reasons for the UK not to remain in the EU, what! There is no question they are coming. Just a matter of when. When they’ve met much the same kind of ‘conditions’ that allowed lame duck Greece into the Euro. In other words, when Merkel thinks she can get away with it…

    Would they migrate across Europe given the chance? You bet your hat they would. Why? Well, let’s start off with the average Turk only enjoying a lifestyle 1 / 3 of ours. But there’s more. Lack of opportunity in that muslim country. Plenty of that, we are told. Oh yes, to get away from the place too. Car bombing Kurds, don’t you know.

    So, how many Young Turks will we get in the UK? We won’t get carried away here with figures, and we merely suggest 3 million over six or seven years, to be conservative. On top of everybody else who are here, and the millions more who are coming here as it is. (Better include Africans who make it to Calais as well, courtesy Jeremy Corbin for that one). Where are they going to live? Perhaps we’ll see private householders with a spare room or two under a legal obligation to accommodate migrants on demand. You know the idea: Comply or have the keys of your property confiscated by a hard pressed local authority itself charged with housing ever increasing numbers. Yes – that should do it. Raise the necessary encouragement…

    One last thing. The pro EU campaigners must weep when Turkey comes up in the argument. They cannot be blind to the coming catastrophe. They must realise Turkey on its own should be enough to defeat the Pro EU argument. So question the Inspector asks is this – why in hell’s name are the pro EU types STILL pro EU!

    • The Explorer

      The Turkey issue happening now – and provided it lasts until June – is wonderful timing for the Referendum.

    • bluedog

      It’s going to get very interesting Mr Inspector, because so many strands of thought and events are coinciding and will be resolved within the next six months or so. Clearly the Brexit vote is of crucial importance in the immediate future. Even a close loss will have an overwhelming effect on relations with the EU. A lot will depend on the Conservative backbench and the possibility that Cameron will be deposed. In any event, Brexit represents a massive shift to the Right and the return of a far more nationalist polity, supra-nationalism having been explicitly rejected.

      But the game changer will be the election of the new US president. If it really is Trump, and if he really stops Muslim immigration to the US, two things follow. In the first instance, under cover of the US ban, other Western democracies would be able to follow suit and would do so, certainly in Eastern Europe. But the next step is highly contentious. Once Muslim immigration is banned, it would seem inevitable that there will arise widespread calls for it to be reversed. Germany and Sweden may figure prominently in this stage of the rejection. Again, if Trump is President, it will be the US that sets the boundaries of the possible in terms of the political atmospherics.

      One can predict outrage from the usual liberal suspects to these remarks. But even the British government is now talking about sinking migrant boats off the coast of North Africa to stop a fresh influx of Africans during the summer boating weather. If this isn’t a ban on third world Muslim immigration, it’s hard to know what is.

  • CliveM

    BBC news, EU and Turkey have just announced unanimous agreement on the deal.

    More Billions pissed up against the wall then.

    • The Explorer

      Never mind paying Turkey; let’s pay the immigrants not to come. We don’t know who they are, so the simple solution is to pay everybody in every country that currently contributes immigrants.

      PS: High FE content, for the benefit of the literally minded.

      • CliveM

        The last sentence won’t stop Linus deliberately misinterpreting.

        • Pubcrawler

          There’s been a deafening silence from that quarter since malapropgate. Hmmm.

          *strokes beard in ‘musing’ mode*

          • CliveM

            We can but hope.

    • Pubcrawler

      The devil, as usual, will be in the details, and as those details emerge, the chances of this agreement sticking diminish, as even al-Beeb admit:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-35848181

      Telegraph reports that visa-free movement for Turks within Schengen isn’t a foregone conclusion either:

      Turkey will be granted visa-free travel to the EU’s Schengen zone from June providing it can meeting the 35 remaining criteria out of 72, something that few expect can be achieved.

      (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12197969/Refugee-crisis-Turkey-and-EU-agree-deal-to-send-migrants-back-to-Turkey-from-Greece.html)

      So. Breathing space at least. And if it all blows up come referendum time, well…

      How well Merkel can brazen this out will be interesting to watch.

      • CliveM

        As you say the Devil is in the detail. I will also be interested to see how many illegals actually get sent back. I can see the Human Right Lawyers holding up the returns in the courts.

        • Pubcrawler

          Well, the more it’s contested the more publicity it gets. And in this case any publicity is bad publicity.

          What I found slightly heartening is that Turkey (or ‘Occupied Anatolia’, as I prefer to think of it) didn’t quite get the free pass that Erdogan might have been angling for.

          • CliveM

            I hadn’t picked it up until you mentioned it, but yes I am too. I do wonder if he realises this or whether he has been offered some secret deal.

          • Pubcrawler

            I guess we’ll find out in due course. But the Balkan States would likely have resisted such a thing, and apparently there was ‘unanimous agreement’. I’m trusting no one, just relieved that visa-free access to the Schengen zone for the Turkish Entity isn’t a given.

          • CliveM

            As you say time will tell.

            I think before the end of the year Turkey will be enjoying it’s visa free travel.

          • Pubcrawler

            Doubtless there will be some fudging going on to see it through. And then, because attention is focused like never before, a strong reaction. That could be fatal to the EU.

            Many a slip twixt cup and lip.

  • Mike Stallard

    Ratchet.
    Immigration.
    Freedom of movement.
    All of these are the deadly danger.
    And, guess what? Mrs Merkel, who dictates how much Mrs Cameron pays for her tampons, wants it thus.

    • bluedog

      Yuk.

      • Not keen on a Prince Charles with dear old Angela, Bluedog?

        • bluedog

          You’ve lost me. Far too cryptic to be anywhere near understandable.

          • Pubcrawler

            If you don’t already know, you really don’t wanna know.

          • Agreed. Jack will have Carl on his back very shortly.

          • carl jacobs

            Ya know… I was sitting here watching a very interesting video on Youtube called “Edward VIII The Traitor King” and just happened to check the weblog while I listened. And because you said this, I decided to google “prince charles british slang.”

            [face palm]

          • It’s not that, Carl. It’s far worse.

            Jack had no idea it already had an assigned meaning. The clue is in Bluedog’s analogy.

          • carl jacobs

            [sigh] Why do you know these things? I now know two things I never really needed to know.

            See, Jack. When you want to tell a joke you say something like this…

            What’s Irish and sits in the sun?”

            Paddy O’Furniture.

            Clean. Respectable. Funny. Presents a good image of the faith. Did I mention clean?

          • Pubcrawler

            “Why do you know these things?”

            It was all over the newspapers for an age, one doesn’t forget that sort of thing.

          • Jack didn’t know about the other meaning. Who would do that and why?
            Note to Happy Jack: Ask Linus next time an opportunity presents.

          • Here’s a funny joke:

            Q: What do you call a Calvinist who has stopped taking his meds?
            A: Universalist.

            Q: What do you call a Universalist with anger issues?
            A: Calvinist.

          • carl jacobs

            You’re in denial, Jack. The first step to recovery is admitting your problem.

          • There’s nothing Jack can do, Carl.

          • CliveM

            Did you make that up!

          • carl jacobs

            Considering the total absence of humor contained therein, I suspect he did.

          • A Calvinist dies and finds himself at a crossroads where there are two signs pointing down two different roads. One says in big letters “Predestination Believers” and the other says “Free Will Believers”.

            Being a Calvinist and believing in predestination he takes the predestination road. He walks down the road and comes to a huge golden door with the word PREDESTINATION written above it. He knocks and an angel opens the door and asks: “What brings you to my door?” The Calvinist answers, “There were two signs and I chose the one that says predestination.” The angel says, “You chose it? Well then, you can’t come in!” And he slams the door shut.

            The Calvinist is crushed and walks back to crossroads where the two signs are. He goes down the free will road and comes to another huge gold door with the words FREE WILL written above it. Another angel opens the door and asks “What brings you to my door?” And the Calvinist says, “I had no choice!”

          • Jack wishes …

          • Pubcrawler

            As if by magic … 🙂

          • carl jacobs

            absolute coincidence.

          • Pubcrawler

            I’ll believe you…

          • He’s stalking Happy Jack ….

          • carl jacobs

            [Rolls eyes]

          • Decency prevents Jack explaining, Bluedog.

          • carl jacobs

            Only now when it is too late does he comprehend.

          • bluedog

            chicken

          • IanCad

            Me Too! There are some things I’m proud to not know about.

  • The Explorer

    Thank you, sir, for the kind words.

  • len

    The further we in the West move away from God the darker our society becomes.We are already witnessing the moral decline of our society and all in which we placed ‘value ‘ is rapidly becoming exposed as corrupt.Many household’ celebrities’ have been exposed as corrupt.Our Banks, the Media, politicians, Church leaders all have fallen. We see greed breaking out and callous attitudes towards those less able to care for themselves amongst our political leaders. As our attitudes turn inwards ‘self ‘becomes deified indeed the ‘ selfie’ makes this point perfectly.
    There seems to be glimmers of Light in some of our Churches but this will increase as the world gets darker.
    Christians and anyone who perceives the times we are living in needs to be aware of the battle going on in’ the Heavenlies ‘as that battle is also being played out on the Earth.
    The flow of migrants into West is going to accelerate the need to put our ‘own House’ in order and to do it fast because the battle we fight is not with migrants but with;
    “For we wrestle not against
    flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against
    the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness
    in high places”.(Ephesians 6:12)

    Take a look at this article;

    http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/prophetic-insight/15115-satans-domain-the-realm-of-darkness

  • As Jack understands it, visa-free travel for Turks will be for short-term visas allowing a traveler to spend a maximum of 90 days within a 180-day period in the Schengen area. Is this understanding correct?

    • Yes. And it gives them enough time to make contacts if they haven’t already and disappear into the crowds. The Turks are notorious double crossing, blackmailing, cheats, liars and swindlers never to be trusted who need a firm hand.

      • Britain isn’t one of the Schengen countries, so will the Turks still require a visa to travel here?

        • It’s down to our government to re-enforce this fact and police the border accordingly.

          • Jeremy Poynton

            Which we know they can’t or won’t do.

      • Pubcrawler

        I find it impossible to disagree.

      • sarky

        Next time you ought to think about using a stereotype.

        • The Explorer

          On the subject of stereotypes, there’s George Orwell’s citation of a proverb in ‘Down and Out in Paris and London’: “Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, but don’t trust an Armenian”. It’s after an Armenian lives up to stereotype by pilfering from every room in the guesthouse.

          • carl jacobs

            Never trust a Grapefruit. He’ll squeeze you dry and then throw you away without a second thought.

          • The Explorer

            I’d have expected you to say don’t trust an Arminian.

          • carl jacobs

            But the Grapefruit is an Arminian.

          • The Explorer

            If it’s any reassurance, I’m restricted with grapefruit: it interacts adversely with a couple of my heart medications.

          • How did the Manchester derby go today, Carl?

          • carl jacobs

            Don’t rush up here to change the subject. We are discussing your tendency to indulge vulgar humor. You know you shouldn’t do this.

          • There’s no discussion here – just a poor joke about Arminian “grapefruits”.

          • carl jacobs

            That’s because you evaded the discussion there, and fled here to change the subject. I however am wise to your ploy.

          • … and the football?

          • carl jacobs

            … is not going to allow you to slither away from facing what you should be facing.

          • Slither? You have a puritan streak, Carl. We Brits are far more liberated as evidenced by Price Charles’s approach to courtship.

        • CliveM

          Hmm, I noticed when Linus mocked the disabled, joked about the sick and engaged in similar national stereotyping, an echoing silence from you. The cynic might wonder if you are more concerned with the source, then with the actual message.

          Not that I would suggest double standards on your part.

          • carl jacobs

            Ouch!

      • carl jacobs

        C’mon Marie. If someone had written …

        The Jews are notorious double crossing, blackmailing, cheats, liars and swindlers never to be trusted who need a firm hand.

        … how would you gave reacted? Now if you made that statement about the Turkish Gov’t I wouldn’t object.

        • CliveM

          Agreed.

        • I would disagree of course as on the whole Jews are not.

          There may be one or two Turks who are decent, but they are few and far between in my experience having lived in a Turkish community they’re a rotten lot. And, well yes look at their government too, quite happy to say one thing to the world about doing all they can to catch ISIS/L fighters, had it not been for Russian reconnaissance for their air strikes catching them red handed doing the opposite and helping ISIS we would have been none the wiser and ISIS even stronger.

        • Shadrach Fire

          The Turkish Government is made up of Turkish people.

    • Jeremy Poynton

      It’s also correct that the German government have stated that they have no idea of tjhe wherabouts of over 100,000 migrants who entered Germany last year.

      Rules and regulations make not a blind bit of difference in this matter do they? Otherwise, all asylum seekers would still be in Greece or Italy.

  • Anton

    Hungary is part of the Schengen zone but is not going to accept this. They remember the 150 years under Turkish rule very clearly and (unlike us) they have a PM whose views are similar to his people’s.

    • Edward Spalton

      Anton,
      The interesting thing to me is that the Eastern European countries with a historical memory of being in or on the edges of the old Ottoman Empire are the only ones which are being realistic about the reality of the Muslim influx.
      Islam is a religion of migration and conquest. Unlike our own insulated elite, who tell us that Islam is “a religion of peace” (and may even have deluded themselves to believe it because the reality is so bleak), the Eastern Europeans are alert to the reality.

      • Anton

        Yes indeed.

      • big

        Edward get a grip of yourself,and Britain hasn’t been a country of migration and conquest?

  • Shadrach Fire

    If the Turks are allowed to freely come to the UK, then I for one will be off to a desert Island.

  • Findaráto

    Oh fake God, the verbally incontinent Swede is back. Given what rutabaga does to the digestive system, it’s perhaps no surprise to see linguistic side effects surfacing. Ejected from either end, I’ve seen piles of body waste on high street pavements that are more readable than anything he writes.

    Don’t let me stop you though. I’m almost interested to see just how garbled garbled can get. And I thought they taught English well in Sweden. How wrong was I?

  • big

    ” should christians vote for Turkey”…….should turkeys vote for christmas?