St Johns Edinburgh2
European Union

Scottish Episcopal church equates Nigel Farage with Adolf Hitler

 

St John’s is a thriving Scottish Episcopal church at the heart of Scotland’s beautiful capital city. Here we aim to express love for God and neighbour in all that we do. And to help people discover for themselves the significance of Jesus Christ. You would be very welcome to join us for worship at one of our Sunday services

So reads the website of the Church of St John the Evangelist on Princes Street, Edinburgh. They clearly love their neighbour, which is manifest in all that they do, so they say. With the possible exception of their mission mural, which isn’t very loving to Nigel Farage, who is, apparently, just three evolutionary strides from Adolf Hitler, sharing political DNA with the Blackshirt fascist Oswald Mosley and BNP neo-fascist Nick Griffin. Such people aren’t worthy of any expression of the love for God, because.. well, they’re just not very neighbourly. And so this Scottish Episcopal church isn’t going to be very neighbourly back to any Ukip supporters, because Jesus only told us to love our enemies: He never said anything about the far right.

And ‘far right’ is precisely the message this church seeks to convey with this crass wall art, which is one of a series of “thought-provoking murals” which form part of its justice-and-peace mission. Apparently, St John’s is “widely known” for this creative initiative. The Rector Markus Dünzkofer said: “We really wanted to make people engage and think and reanalyze.” United with his Associate Rector, the church’s mission is defined: “It is sometimes necessary to raise questions, which some people may find uncomfortable, though it is never our intention to cause offence.”

Funny, isn’t it, that none of their murals seem to have a dig at Labour, the SNP or any on the left of the political spectrum, which apparently has no extremists. The only missiological questions that it is necessary to raise are those concerned with the ‘far right’, and the evolutionary evidence is apparently overwhelming that Hitler leads to Farage; from Nazism we derive Ukip; the darkness of the Holocaust results in the desire for controlled immigration.

“Advent is all about light and darkness and I think there’s a lot of darkness and fear around immigration in this country and there some people who are using that fear to not bring in any light but to put in more darkness,” explains the Rector.

But it is curious that the primordial fascist is German, and he evolves into three Britons, or, to be more precise, three Englishmen. The Church of St John the Evangelist wouldn’t be spreading a bit of darkness and fear among Scots about the English, would it? “As we move closer to the referendum, how will we encounter fellow citizens, with whom we disagree and how will we continue to love if the referendum does not go our way?” asked the Rector a few weeks before the referendum on Scottish independence. He might well reflect upon how he encounters Ukip-ers – with whom he plainly disagrees – and how he expresses his love for them if their identity is scrambled with that of Adolf Hitler.

It is telling that the mural does not unfold from Germany’s Nazism to Austria’s Freedom Party, France’s Front National, Greece’s Golden Dawn or Belgium’s Vlaams Blok. Nor does it (more rationally) develop from German Nazism to ISIS Jihadism. No, the church conveys that political ideology moves from slaughtering six million Jews in concentration camps to the control of EU immigration in Britain. The inference is that systematic genocide leads to the scapegoating of minorities. Or is it the other way round?

Quite why the Church of St John the Evangelist insults the sacred memory of six million Jews by juxtaposing their harrowing fate with Ukip’s plans for EU migrants is unknown. Unlike genocide, nationalism and racism, the phenomenon of controlled immigration is neither un-Christian nor un-biblical. You really have to strain at scriptural exegesis to make it so. Indeed, controlled immigration is entirely biblically rational, for God conceived the nations, created ethnic diversity and developed native identity. And He desires communal harmony and civil peace. Politicians who advance policies which foment discord and division, or which lead to violence, terrorism or injustice, are not acting righteously.

Ukip is not the English Defence League. Its supporters are not a ‘counter-jihad’ movement or a paramilitary nationalist outfit in pursuit of imperial supremacy. They are not fascists or third-millenium neo-fascists, though some of them may be. But there are anti-democrats in all the main political parties, and you’ll find in them the desire to marginalise certain minority groups, as well. If it’s not Muslims and gays, it’ll be Christians, Jews or Eurosceptics. Why is the only illiberal radicalism to be challenged that which gives rise to what is termed the ‘far right’?

The Church of St John the Evangelist has succeeded in raising uncomfortable questions, but it has palpably failed in its stated intention not to cause offence. In seeking to draw on the Nazi lesson of history, they have ventured to suggest that the desire for UK secession from the EU is extremist, if not fascist; that the recession and austerity which gave rise to the German nationalism of the 1930s is akin to the political cynicism which has yielded a surge in support for Ukip.

It is missiologically insupportable that this church or any church should conflate warmongering and genocide with the peaceful and democratic pursuit of national sovereignty. How does this lead to salvation? How does it exalt the name of Jesus? It is provocative but quite perverse that they find a political thread weaving Hitler’s brutal tyranny to Farage’s concept of liberty, as though their souls were fused and their sins comparably unforgivable. If Markus Dünzkofer wants to find vulgar generic political similarities and kick around slippery historical parallels, he might prayerfully consider that the Nazis had a plan for an empire – a Reich – of one people organised under a single economic order living under one law ruled by one president: Hitler’s ultimate political objective was the destruction of the nation state and the establishment of a United States of Europe. There’s a more credible evolutionary thread to be found weaving Munich to Masstricht than any ideological interconnection between Adolf Hitler and Nigel Farage.

  • Albert

    Excellent post. I wonder if they will get sued. Of course, there are no nasty nationalists in Scotland.

    • CliveM

      Oh yes there are !

      • Andy

        It’s stuffed to the Glen’s with ’em.

  • CliveM

    For as long as I can remember this Church has put up these ‘challenging’ murals. All safely left wing and all simply conforming to the prevailing political culture in Scotland.
    This is the irony of these murals, they neither challenge or provoke thought. They are liked because for the majority of people who walk past, they affirm the prevailing prejudice.

    It should also be noted, that despite its continual pandering to left wing thought, the Episcopal Church has no future and indeed manages to make the CofE look dynamic and relevant in comparison.

    • bluedog

      Do they have a mural supporting BDS, Clive? It’ll be perversely disappointing if they don’t.

      • CliveM

        To be honest I don’t know. They will have had one supporting Palestinian ‘rights’.

        I have been out of Scotland for a couple of years now, so can’t vouch for every mural!

  • William Lewis

    One often reads about the “far right” and the “radical left”, but we never seem to hear about the “radical right” or the “far left”.

    This “thought-provoking” mural is nothing but a slur designed to engender fear and loathing – how ironic! Textbook “radical left”.

    • CliveM

      No the mural is to reassure. It’s sub text is “we in Scotland are nicer, more moral then our xenophobic, racist neighbour”.

      This is the message the majority of passers by will take from the mural. Most will simply feel better about themselves.

      • William Lewis

        I can believe it, Clive, and happily submit to your superior local knowledge.

  • dannybhoy

    You can read about the church and ministry team here.. http://www.stjohns-edinburgh.org.uk/about-us/ministry-team.

    • IanCad

      Thanks Danny,
      When I hear or see the word “Team” I know something ain’t right.
      A link to their murals is also up there. Mostly daft and infantile.

      • dannybhoy

        I’m a UKIP member and very definitely anti Racist, so I think we all need to be on our guard against extremism. In that sense this poster serves a purpose, and all of us have a responsibility to speak out against unrighteousness in anything we are involved with.
        DanJ0 said yesterday that Christians are angry because they are marginalised and people don’t share their views.
        This is of course nonsense. I have found that whilst people may be surprised to find you are a practicing Christian (although interestingly they rarely take the same view with Muslims or anyone else!), that your eyes don’t swivel, etc., will often ask you what you believe and why.
        It can lead to the most interesting discussions on evolution, abiogenesis and all roads leading to God, etc.
        Sometimes, having failed to point out the errors of your faith and being disarmed by your admitting you don’t have all the answers, the person will then say,
        “Well if it’s made you a better person, then it’s good for you. I just don’t feel the need of religion..”
        That’s when you have to say that God says Jesus is the only way to salvation, and my having told you this means you can’t ignore the claims of Jesus Christ on your life.
        As an aside, isn’t it funny that so many people want us to be inclusive, tolerant, non judgmental and accepting -up to the point where that philosphy starts to impinge on their freedom…

        • Linus

          I wouldn’t be too sure about them not taking you for a swivel-eyed loon if I were you.

          All they need to do is dig a little to find the craziness lurking beneath a (more or less) unexceptionable layer of “normal”.

          Like when you brag about knowing how to damn people to hell. All you have to do is reveal the “truth” to them and if they reject it, they’ll burn forever, right? Their rejection couldn’t possibly be based on your inadequate and illogical explanations, could it? It couldn’t be that you have no proof of what you say. No, whatever comes out of your mouth must be accepted as Gospel truth because YOU say it, and as we all must surely know, YOU are the ultimate arbiter of truth.

          Or maybe not…

          • dannybhoy

            Where did I damn them to Hell Linus?
            Or did you misread me?

          • Linus

            “That’s when you have to say that God says Jesus is the only way to salvation, and my having told you this means you can’t ignore the claims of Jesus Christ on your life.”

            All you have to do is open your mouth and I’m compelled to become a Christian, eh? Either that or burn.

            You fail to take into account that I can just dismiss you as a loon. A relatively high-functioning loon, of course. But a loon nonetheless.

          • dannybhoy

            Not so mon ami.
            What I am pointing out is that the Bible does not offer Christianity as “a lifestyle choice,” and whilst I am slightly hurt that you obviously (sniffle) don’t read ALL my comments (blows nose furiously),
            you should know that I don’t see it as my place to tell anyone they are going to Hell. Only God knows that. My job is to say that there is only one way to reconciliation and salvation, and that is through Christ Jesus.

  • Royinsouthwest

    The number of people living today who actually fought in World War II is now small and diminishing every month. However their sons and daughters know what they fought for and realise that unlike the Rector of St John’s they would be perfectly capable of distinguishing between a right wing, patriotic party and a fascist one.

    They would probably also recognise quislings when they saw one and might think that the Rector of St John’s had far more in common with the likes of Quisling and Pétain than Farage with Griffin, Mosley or Hitler.

  • Anton

    Well said, Your Grace; it is the EU rather than UKIP which is leading down the totalitarian road and is following Hitler’s vision of Europe in that respect.

    One criticism, though: What is wrong with a “counter-jihad” movement provided that (unlike some) it operates peaceably and has an intellectual basis?

  • Martin

    When a church loses the gospel they search around for things they can support and proclaim. They rarely seek God.

    I don’t see a mural depicting the thousands of babies who have been killed by abortion but I do see one depicting sexual perversion.

  • sarky

    Looking forward to seeing the mural thats showing ‘william wallace’ to ‘alex salmond’ and any other undesirables the english have routed.

    • CliveM

      Trouble is the SNP would love the implication that they are the heirs to William Wallace.

    • dannybhoy

      O fleur of Scootland, when will we see your like again??

      Oops ! That was meant for my wee pal Clive…

      • CliveM

        Who is fleur?

        • dannybhoy

          You mean what is fleur…
          It’s used in ceuking…
          I’m surprised you didn’t weurk that one out yersel’ laddie….
          🙂

          • CliveM

            I have no idea what any of that is about? Is it Polish? :0)

          • dannybhoy

            mój drogi przyjacielu, Bognor jest wspaniały w tej porze roku!

            Will ye nae come back again?

  • The Explorer

    Evolution? Survival of the fittest?

  • William Lewis

    Perhaps this German Rector should bare in mind that we overwhelmingly rejected Hitler, Hitlerism and derivatives thereof. We don’t really do that sort of thing. Is he projecting his own fears?

    • dannybhoy

      Agreed William. British people have been traditionally anti extremist of any kind. But the reason so many people want to live here is because of what we British are and stand for. It is patently obvious that not everyone who has come to live here admires or respects our values, so eventually our nation will be changed unless we insist on upholding British history and values.

  • The Explorer

    Implicitly, the poster makes an interesting equation: evolution = social progress. I thought that view died with World War One.

  • Anton

    Don’t mention the war!

    • Why not?

      • Anton

        Because John Cleese says don’t.

  • Linus

    Interesting mural that poses a very pertinent question. Replace the three foremost faces with Jacques Doriot, Jean-Marie Le Pen and his daughter Marine and it would be just as relevant here in France.

    The rise of the far right in both countries is clearly linked to economic and social pressures created by global recession and mass migration. There are clear parallels between the Germany of the Great Depression and the Europe of today.

    In the Germany of the late 1920s and early 1930s, economic instability exacerbated by a wave of ethnic German immigration from the newly independent countries to the east created exactly the right conditions for fascism to take root and grow. And something similar is happening now. In times of trouble, societies close in on themselves and reject outsiders. Leaders who exploit that tendency rise to prominence on an anti-immigrant, or at least an anti-outsider, platform. That’s how Hitler came to power.

    We musn’t forget that in 1933 Hitler wasn’t yet perceived as the monster he became. He was seen as a strong leader who wanted to get rid of outsiders and make Germany strong again. Isn’t this exactly how Farage and Le Pen are perceived?

    If you take the election platform of each leader pictured in that mural, Farage most certainly fits right in. Immigrants: bad! English: good! Liberals: loonies who must be stopped! When you boil it down to its essentials and substitute German for English, how is that message any different from the Nazi manifesto of 1933?

    Of course it remains to be seen what Farage will do with power if ever he gets any. It’s not inevitable that he’ll turn into another Hitler. But considering he’s starting from a similar point of origin, it’s entirely reasonable to fear that he might.

    Voters should be asking themselves whether it’s right to elect a leader whose “point de départ” has so much in common with fascist leaders of the past. Do they trust him not to follow the same path? Will a strong leader who halts immigration turn into a dictator who purges society of all groups he deems unfit or inferior? It’s happened before. What’s to stop it happening again?

    • Anton

      Dear Linus

      The far right is not rising in England. Nigel Farage is not far right and the genuine far right remains negligible. Might I remind you that Nazi stood for National Socialist, by the way?

      • Dominic Stockford

        Ooh! Anton, you’ve done it now! Reminding the left that the Nazis came from the left. It was nice knowing you! 😉

      • Linus

        Stopping all immigration and taking Britain out of the EU are classic far right policies. Ukip is certainly far right where it counts. As for the rest of their ill-thought out stance, it’s clearly been cobbled together down the pub by the lads who think they can turn their single-issue party into a viable government. That’s pretty much how the Nazis started. They also had credibility problems with loony candidates at the very beginning. So there’s yet another another unfortunate parallel between Farage and Hitler’s rise to prominence. Scared yet?

        Probably not. It wouldn’t surprise me if Ukip wins the next election. Day One of a Farage government will see all immigration declared illegal. Day Two will see the roundups and deportations begin. Day Three will see British representatives storm out of Brussels and the British will dance in the streets in celebration and drink themselves stupid on their warm, soapy beer. Then Day Four will dawn. What happens then?

        If I were living in Britain, I’d already be planning my escape route. As it is, I live in France, which from the point of view of nascent fascism isn’t much better. I have personal experience of massive right wing mobs and their hatred for me and anyone like me. I know how Jews must have felt in Germany in 1933. Compared to most of them I’m lucky because I have the means and the wherewithal to escape if Le Pen wins an election here. But many do not. What will happen to them?

        I shudder to think…

        • John O’Connor

          “…. taking Britain out of the EU are classic far right policies.”
          Its a far left policy too I think you’ll find.

          • CliveM

            Don’t confuse him with facts!

          • Andy

            It is actually a mainstream policy.

        • dannybhoy

          Well, I for one am pleased you are living well away from any personal danger Linus.. You can’t come to any real harm by commenting on a British based, certifiable Christian blog….

          • Linus

            Harm is a relative thing. I have friends who think that merely reading the posts and comments on this blog is tantamount to self-harming. There are times I agree with them.

          • dannybhoy

            How could your agreement or otherwise be taken seriously Messieur, whenb you freely admit to dialoguing with people you regard as inSeine…… 🙂

          • Linus

            Crazy people are still people. I’m happy enough to dialogue with those who suffer from physical ailments. Why would I make an exception for the mentally ill?

          • dannybhoy

            You gotta admit Linus, that’s a bit of a weak comeback.. really.
            I mean, I’m mad and appreciate your deigning to dialogue with me, but it is weak…
            Incidentally my wife and I were going to go and live in la belle France, but we realised that we were the wrong side of fifty, We love the country though, especially the south west.

          • Linus

            If you do decide to come to France and Marine Le Pen lets you in (because to her, you see, you’ll just be a miserable asylum seeker fleeing from the rat-infested British health care system and looking for free treatment for the obesity related diseases you all suffer from over there), then do take a word of advice: learn French before you arrive. You clearly don’t speak the language and in a Le Pen controlled France, that will be a capital crime.

          • dannybhoy

            The more excited you seem to become, the more extreme your language becomes Linus.
            I thought you might like to know that.

          • Johnnyrvf

            Ah but Linus not only do I speak French but I am married to a local lass who is a great supported of Marine le Penn. I don’t have a problem with the idea that if you want to live in a different country you should be prepared to accept the new cultural norms even if the bureaucracy is a pain in the backside.

          • Linus

            If you’re like most Englishmen living in France, all you know about Marine Le Pen comes from the English press. It’s therefore not surprising to find that you don’t even know how to spell her name.

            Does your wife know who she’s voting for? Is it Jean-Marie Le Pen’s daughter – you know, the blonde with shark’s smile, the cognac-and-Gauloises rasp in her voice and that cold, carnivorous glint in her eye? Or is it some local candidate for the conseil municipal in whatever bled paumé you live in, who just happens to have a similar sounding name to Celle-qui-doit-être-obéie ?

            I suppose it doesn’t matter though. A fascist is a fascist no matter what she calls herself. But if Mlle Le Pen wins the next election, don’t be surprised to find yourself presented with an expulsion order next time you fall down drunk in public in the grand tradition of Englishmen living in France.

            I wonder how your wife will adjust to life in the land of grey, tough, cadaverous lamb and mushy peas? And will Farage kick her out in her turn? Where will you live then? Will Ms Sturgeon offer you asylum in Scotland? How about the US? Or is Obama too … ethnic … for your far right sensibilities? I know, try Australia. You’ll pass for trendy liberals there, the food’s quite good too, and race relations are just about where most National Front members would like them to be, i.e. stuck firmly in the paternalistic 50s. Heaven for you. Why wait?

          • Johnnyrvf

            Ah but Linus, I have French nationality. It will be interesting to see if Mme. Le Pen can throw me out quite as easily as you think she will. My wife is very aware of the Le Pen family, she votes for them often enough. Plus I don’t drink, never have, I used to race motorcycles and getting blind drunk does not aide in victory sur la piste at all. I have family in Oz but at my age I don’t think I could offer them that much. I was angry and frightened once but over the years learned that most of it was irrational, there are people out there who wish harm to others but they are not where you go looking for them.

          • Seadog

            Linus. Do you blog elsewhere as Telemachus?

          • Linus

            No.

          • Johnnyrvf

            I live in the South West, great place to be. Being married to a local means my social circle is very predominatly French. I don’t know what Linus is on about as the general opinion of people around here is live and let live, except that same sex couples should not be allowed to parent children.

          • dannybhoy

            Would that be Dordogneshire Johnny?
            That’s the area we love, (Brantome, Nontron, Perigueux) and our original plan was to buy a piece of land and put up (with the help of a builder friend) a wood cabin bought here in the UK. It was the most cost effective way we could see to have a home over there and become a part of the local community as you have done.
            But as I say, age and health factors changed things, so we now live in a very rural part of East Anglia. Not quite so beautiful, but we are grateful to the Lord for a nice home and friendly neighbours.

          • Johnnyrvf

            Yes but further south closer to Bergerac. My folks had a beautiful cottage near Clare in Suffolk and I know that over towards Lavenham, Stowmarket, Ipswich and up to Eye is some beautiful countryside which I enjoyed growing up in the sixties and seventies. I have been over here for nigh on ten years and despite more and more onerous regulations being inflicted on the populace by the appalling administration that fully backs the EU totalitarian agenda it is still a great place to live. House prices are collapsing, believe me some places are being given away, it is crazy as since the relaxation of the building regs. under Sarko little boxes bought by couples who want to retire here are going up all over and are losing their value before they are completed! I wonder when some of these people will wake up to the fact they are buying something worthless.

          • Quite right. You are most welcome here.

          • Hmmm …. self-harm is not uncommon amongst those experiencing painful disturbances of the psych. Some actually incite abuse – verbal and physical – because it distracts from pain and helps avoid the reality of their situation. Early relationships between father, mother and child often hold the key. Combine this with someone who craves attention being given an opportunity to manifest their intelligence, wit and superiority …. and ….. well …

        • Royinsouthwest

          You may “shudder to think” but you do have a vivid imagination.

        • sarky

          Got my warm soapy beer ready in anticipation!!

          • carl jacobs

            warm soapy beer

            Gak! Sounds like dishwater. Beer is supposed to be chilled.

          • William Lewis

            Just what we need on this blog. Another food and drink expert.

          • sarky

            You are so american, you don’t know what your missing.

          • Dreadnaught

            Change your Local I would suggest!

        • Anton

          “if Ukip wins the next election. Day One of a Farage government will see all immigration declared illegal. Day Two will see the roundups and deportations begin. Day Three will see British representatives storm out of Brussels”

          That latter action will, I hope, occur on Day 1. Regarding immigration, Farage has repeatedly said that he does not wish to halt all immigration unconditionally; do you believe he is lying? As for roundups and deportations then provided they are of people resident in Britain illegally such action is long overdue. What is the point of laws if they are not enforced?

        • Dreadnaught

          I have personal experience of massive right wing mobs and their hatred for me and anyone like me. I know how Jews must have felt in Germany in 1933.

          How could you know how Jews must have felt unless you as a Jew (maybe you are) actually experienced it first hand: ‘experience’ is a very personal state of consciousness. Asking out of genuine interest, which right-wing mobs and where, had it in for you personally?

          It wouldn’t surprise me if Ukip wins the next election
          It would surprise our Nige though.
          Linus, many of your previous posts seem to make sense to me – until now.

          • Linus

            I was caught up in one of the Manifs Pour Tous in Paris last year. Tens of thousands of vicious Catholics and other homophobes screaming for the government to discriminate against me. This is exactly what happened to the Jews in Germany in the early 1930s. None of the political rallies of the time called for their extermination. Just for civil rights to be denied to them.

            Does history always repeat? Those protestors would clearly like it to. First take away legal recognition of gay relationships. Then ban them altogether. Then intern us for “re-education”. Then what?

            The Jews in 1933 didn’t know what lay ahead and neither do I. But I know what happened to them. We have no idea where the far right will take us this time. But we know where it’s been. And you’re not scared? I certainly am.

          • dannybhoy

            You’re scared Linus?
            Maybe time for another pastry..
            No one here hates you, no one wants to harm you nor take away your rights as a human being. Just because we disagree with the gay lifestyle does not mean we reject the gay person or wish him or her harm.

          • Linus

            I don’t believe you. If people like you ever gain any power, the first thing you’ll do is abrogate the equal marriage laws. Then you’ll close all gay venues. Then you’ll recriminalize homosexual acts and send offenders to be “rehabilitated”. And for those who don’t cooperate? The fate of Alan Turing should make it very clear what will happen to us. So much easier for your Christian consciences if you can drive us to take our own lives rather than killing us yourselves, no?

          • dannybhoy

            Linus,
            Now you’re starting to sound paranoid! Listen, if anyone’s going to get locked up, criminalised or persecuted, it’s Christians. A Christian should never stand by and watch another person being bullied or victimised, even if they disagree with their lifestyle.
            I was at boarding school and in the merchant navy, so I have met and worked with homosexuals. Never have I made fun of nor harmed any.

          • Linus

            The party you vote for might not share your scruples. Many Christians voted for the Nazi Party. Few of them would have wanted Jews to be murdered. And yet murdered they were.

            Moral of the story? Be careful who you vote for. You might get more than you bargain for.

          • dannybhoy

            History shows that we dislike extremism. It could happen here, but that’s why Christians and others of good will must use their democratic responsibilities to oppose extremism (and terrorism) from whatever quarter.
            The Nazis came to power because they believed Germany had been badly treated and they appealed to patriotic Germans, but the fact that violence and the threat of violence was there right from the start (like the IRA), was what really intimidated ordinary citizens.
            Look in the natural world if you want to see how human societies work without religion -and especially Christianity..
            Stalin, Lenin. Hitler, Pol Pot are prime examples of non religious political and social philosophies designed for the betterment of mankind…

          • Little Black Censored

            Not to mention the ghastly French revolution.

          • dannybhoy

            Ghastly for the aristocracy you mean..
            I think this all boils down to the early European church mixing up the theocracy of Israel with the New Covenant instituted through our Lord.
            The belief in the divine right of kings (including friends favourites, toadies, hangers on and social climbers).
            So whatever is is right. And overarching all was the authority and power of the Church.

          • Andy

            Quite a few early Nazis were homosexuals.

          • jsampson45

            I would have thought if two people do not believe each other there is no point continuing communication. Similarly I guess most of us do not believe politicians, so why do we continue listening to them or commenting on what they say? Or voting, for that matter?

          • Happy Jack advises rest and relaxation, Linus. You’ve obviously been overworking in the pantry over the Christmas season.

          • Dreadnaught

            Am I scared you ask; I answer no. Not scared; my life is not in danger neither do I describe my identity as being part of any social order other than being an Englishman.
            I do have great concern however for the future character and fortune of my Country as it is progresses further from ‘the land fit for heroes’ as promised to my father and his generation.

            The context in the English Language has been manipulated to such a degree that Patriotism is no longer to be admired as an English character trait; whereas it seem that any other British country still proclaims and lauds it.

            I won’t apologise for being ethnically white skinned English or claim special treatment for being part of the 80% of the population, but even so, I can’t mention it and form a group wishing to identify itself as promoters of a white, heterosexual advancement group unlike the Black Policemen’s Association or the Black Lawyers Association or even the Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual and Transgender groups.

            Ranting Catholic mobs they may have been – but that’s their right in a democracy and I doubt that you personally were the object of their ire; don’t you agree you may be taking this a little too personally and nothing like having armed Brownshirts on the streets or ISIS hammering on your door?

          • Linus

            You would have said exactly the same to Jews in Berlin in the late 20s as the first anti-Semitic posters and pamphlets appeared and a small, radical political party started attracting crowds to its rallies. “Don’t worry, they’re not targeting you personally,” you would have told them. “And besides, I want the trains to run on time, so I’m going to vote for them.”

            Of course, it won’t be your fault if anything happens to your gay or Polish or Muslim neighbour when Farage takes over, will it? Oh no, you just voted for less immigration, didn’t you?

            That’s exactly the attitude that led to an entire generation of Germans bearing the collective guilt for the Shoah. And many still refuse to acknowledge it.

            Oh well, if your god really does exist and judges you when you die, you can always try the classic German defence of “but ve didn’t know!”

          • Dreadnaught

            “And besides, I want the trains to run on time, so I’m going to vote for them.”

            You are confusing Dictators – that scenario belongs to Mussolini.

            Are you seriously comparing your self-perception of a persecuted homosexual person to the situation of Jews of Europe and the Holocaust? If so you should hang your head in shame at equivalising yourself to the real discrimination, suffering and genocide inflicted upon them.

            You are also guilty of making far too many assumptions based on very little knowledge.

          • Linus

            You do know that gay people were also exterminated in Nazi death camps, don’t you?

            How many were killed for being self-satisfied Christian Englishmen with a tenuous grasp of their own language? Not that many, I’d hazard to guess.

            All persecution has its origins in calls for discrimination. What happened to European Jews and gays in the 1930s and 1940s hasn’t happened to my generation of gay people yet, but calls for discrimination are the first step along a path that could lead in that direction again.

          • William Lewis

            Your paranoia is palpable Linus. Dreadnaught is an atheist.

            By the way, don’t go equating Germanic inhuman efficiency and Vichy French collaboration with English self satisfaction. The outcomes tend to be different.

          • Dreadnaught

            Sigh! Now you are really scraping the barrel of dumb riposte and doing yourself a dis-service in the process. Out.

          • Andy

            So were Christians.
            So were Conservatives.
            So were Monarchists. . . . .

          • That small radical party you referred to were mainly sexual perverts into sadism, masochism and very ‘macho’ homosexuality. They were Hitler’s political forefathers.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Nobody was discriminating against you. You already had exactly the same rights as the people in the Manifs Pour Tous demonstrations but you had the arrogance to expect the law to be changed in a way that would probably have outraged most of your ancestors and if they had thought like you do then you would not have been born.

          • William Lewis

            There is no right for two men (or women) to get married. Even the ECHR has said as much. Manifs Pour Tous were perfectly correct in their objection to the redefinition of marriage. There are perfectly natural (and God-given) reasons for the original definition that pertain solely to heterosexual relationships.

          • Linus

            The right of two people to marry regardless of gender is now enshrined in both French and British law. We won and you lost. Where was God when that happened?

            Honestly, if I were a Christian, I’d be asking myself what on earth God was doing. He let the gays destroy marriage. He gave all that oil and power to the Muslims. He routinely strikes even his most faithful Christians down with cancer and heart disease and all manner of other illnesses. Why, he even let the episcopate be invaded by upstart women! You know, those inferior creatures whose penislessness and high cackling voices render them unfit to conjure up his presence in church every Sunday. What was he thinking? Why didn’t he rain fire and brimstone down on us evil ones and rapture all you true believers up to the 1950s version of Stepford that awaits you in heaven?

            Oh well, have a little hope. Maybe you’ll wake up tomorrow to find me and Katherine Jefferts Schori and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Harriet Harman being torn limb from limb by the heavenly host of the Second Coming. And even if you don’t, well, you can always daydream about it, can’t you? Imaginary revenge is the next best thing to the real feeling. So knock yourself out. It won’t stop me getting married or Libby What’s-her-name from being bishopificated, or one imaginary sky fairy cult being eliminated by another in the Middle East. But if it helps you deal with realities you don’t like, it’s probably for the best.

          • William Lewis

            “The right of two people to marry regardless of gender is now enshrined in both French and British law. We won and you lost.”

            And yet you are still complaining about those who disagree with you. Get on with it. Tie the knot for goodness sake. With or without our blessing. Sheesh.

            “Where was God when that happened?”

            Letting us get on with it as He usually does, I expect.

            Your second and third paragraphs are a little bit creepy, by the way.

          • Linus

            Yes, this God of yours has a habit of doing that, doesn’t he? Letting us get on with it, I mean. In fact, he intervenes so little, one could be forgiven for thinking he wasn’t there. Or at the very least that he views humanity in the way we view a disaster movie: remotely and with detachment, never really being moved by anything but simply viewing it as a form of entertainment.

            In which case he’ll have a ball when I get married. The ceremony is all planned out and it’s going to make that bleak and Protestant wake that Mrs Mountbatten threw for her balding, toothy grandson and his hirsute matchstick of a bride look positively Calvinist. You’re not invited, but if you want a God’s-eye view of the proceedings, I’ll send you a link to the live feed if you like. Watch it and weep.

          • William Lewis

            Goodness, Linus. That was quick. Last time we communicated marriage was a distant aspiration – if you happened upon the right fella. I didn’t expect to see you rushing to the alter (as it were) with all your other “co-orientationists”.

          • Linus

            I’m rushing to alter nothing.

            Why can’t these people speak their own language? What do they teach you in Anglo-saxon schools? Whatever it is, you clearly don’t pay much attention to it.

            Had you been following what I said earlier rather than reading your own prejudices and conclusions into it, you might have understood that my long-term partner and I were not in agreement about the importance of marriage. I was in favour of it. He was against it. Things have changed. Marriage is now being planned. And that’s all the detail I’m prepared to divulge to a group of people who clearly desire and hope that our marriage will fail so they can point at us and say “we told you so”.

            Marriage is difficult enough without having doomsayers breathing down your neck willing you to fail. If our relationship threatens your world view, too bad for you. You’ll just have to deal with it.

          • William Lewis

            I must say you are a stickler, Linus. Still it’s good to have someone sweep up all the typos and such after us. But such a harsh taskmaster!

            Anyway, now that you have bigged-up your wedding of the century (bigger than Will’s and Kate’s wasn’t it?), you had better send the link to the live feed once the gun carriage starts rolling. And remember, don’t skimp on the buffet, no one likes that. Oh and I’d avoid any Abba or Village People – too corny. But an open bar is always popular. Just my twopence worth.

          • CliveM

            WL

            remembering of course he had a whine because Uncle Brian highlighted some French mis-spelling!

            Pot, kettle, black!

          • Bride or Groom, Linus? You’re chance to shine in white and be the centre of attention. What you’ve always craved – recognition and validation. Sadly, its a sham and you know it too. It’ll make no substantive difference to your existential confusion.

          • Little Black Censored

            …regardless of gender…
            Gender has nothing to do with it; you mean sex.
            Congratulations, by the way, on being the first to mention the “sky fairy” – I thought it would never happen.

        • Linus, you’re rather conveniently ignoring the real roots of National Socialism – anti-Christianity, neo-paganism and sexual deviancy.

          Those guys gathering in pubs early on were known for their weird views about Germany’s destiny and for their macho-sadism-masochism, allied to homosexuality. The group they really despised most were effeminate homosexual men.

          How on earth Hitler survived is a mystery. Have you ever seen him strut his stuff? And the way he rests his wrist on his hip?

          • dannybhoy

            Get you!

          • Jack’s on a roll.

          • Linus

            More homophobic abuse from the usual suspect, I see.

            If I want to see a closet case strut his stuff, I’ll go to mass on Sunday. All that mincing at the altar, all those sultry looks at the choirboys and all that creepy worship of imaginary gods and goddesses were patented by Catholic priests in Catholic churches long before they ever put in an appearance at a Nuremberg rally.

            I might amuse myself by going up for communion and watching the priest turn pale and totter when he recognizes the married man who gave it to him in the backroom of the local gay bar the night before. It’s such a commonplace spectacle, but it never loses its ability to entertain.

            Oh no, it doesn’t get much camper than a Catholic church on Sunday. And Happy Jack will no doubt be sitting there with a beatific smile on his face beaming at the priests and wishing he could be just like them…

          • How is the description of the sexual perversions of early National Socialism “homophobic”?

            As for Mass on Sunday, Linus, Jack would say there is an awful lot of projection going on in your head if that is how you read the dynamics. The sex abuse scandal in the Church mainly arose as result of admission to the priesthood of homosexuals in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s and the moral laxity of seminaries.

            And your last comment betrays your own jealousy and envy. Of course its the attention you crave and the opportunity to display and parade your superiority and have others worship you.

          • AnnieRoux

            “The sex abuse scandal in the Church mainly arose as result of admission to the priesthood of homosexuals in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s and the moral laxity of seminaries.”

            +++
            Happy Jack lies.

          • Ah, the ‘she’ who prefers to be known as a ‘he’ drops by from her usual coven to pester Happy Jack.
            Do read the John Jay report.

          • AnnieRoux

            I did. It concluded nothing about the risk of homosexual priests or the seminaries. Clergy child sex abuse in the Catholic Church has been a problem since the dark ages. Do read some history.

          • Then read it again. Jack knows American education is not up to much and doesn’t promote analytical skills but really you should be able to read and discern themes.
            Yes, immorality appears to come and go in waves in order to destabilise the Church. Homosexuality has been a plague and a cancer for generations. Saint Peter Damian spoke about it as far back as the 11th century and recommended removing all those afflicted by it from religious life. The most recent outbreak, resulting in the 80% of adolescent boys being abused by homosexual men in America, (even though some denied they identifies as homosexuals) was preceded by the sexual liberalisation and theological progressivism of the 1960’s and the shocking acceptance of active homosexuality in a lot of American seminaries. Its all well documented.

            Hope you find a suitable local mountain to howl from during your visit and do hug a few trees on your way up and down.

          • AnnieRoux

            I don’t need to read it again. Your interpretation of the document is imbued with your bigotry. Case closed.

          • Yep, good old American education. Best in the world.

          • AnnieRoux

            Pathetic — you are unable to acknowledge that you’re taking significant liberties with the John Jay study.

          • Sigh – that’s the response to the abuse.

            The study listed the main characteristics of the sex abuse incidents reported. These included:

            — An overwhelming majority of the victims, 81 percent, were males. The most vulnerable were boys aged 11 to 14, representing more than 40 percent of the
            victims. This goes against the trend in the general U.S. society where the main problem is men abusing girls.

            — A majority of the victims were post-pubescent adolescents with a small percentage of the priests accused of abusing children who had not reached puberty.

            As to the response, the John Jay report makes clear the bishops were as clueless as the rest of society about the magnitude of the abuse problem and like the rest of society, tended to focus on the perpetrators of abuse rather than the victims. This led to an overdependence on psychiatry and psychology in dealing with clerical perpetrators in the false confidence that they could be “cured” and returned to active ministry — a pattern that again mirrored broader societal trends.

            The bishops and the hierarchy should have been more alert than the rest of an increasingly liberal society to the damage done to victims by sexual abuse; but as the John Jay report states, “like the general public, the leaders of the Church did not recognize the extent or harm of victimization.” And this, in turn, was “one factor that likely led to the continued perpetration of offenses.”

            Now begone and go and bother someone else.

          • AnnieRoux

            “that’s the response to the abuse.”

            +++

            Are you not able to read?

            The John Jay report identified the following FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO THE SEXUAL ABUSE PROBLEM:

            -Failure by the hierarchy to grasp the seriousness of the problem.
            -Overemphasis on the need to avoid a scandal.
            -Use of unqualified treatment centers.
            -Misguided willingness to forgive.
            -Insufficient accountability.

            You inserted bogus claims which are not even addressed at all in the John Jay study.

          • Yes, yes, the Church, like the rest of society at the time, was unprepared and ill-equipped to respond to child sexual abuse. As we know, in the American Church this was mainly perpetrated on teenage boys by homosexual priests. Its hierarchical structure, in combination with this failure to understand the abuse, resulted in it failing to act in the interests of children.

            Now this is all that will be said by Jack on this subject. This post is about British politics and not your one-issue interest.

          • AnnieRoux

            So, to summarize:

            You falsely claimed that the John Jay report addressed these bogus issues:

            “The sex abuse scandal in the Church mainly arose as result of admission to the priesthood of homosexuals in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s and the moral laxity of seminaries.”

            It was not “homosexuality” which caused the moral collapse in your organization. Homosexual men and women are no more likely to abuse children than are heterosexual men and women. The problem was the perverse culture in the Catholic Church, of which you are a prime example. Blessings!

          • Jack never attributed that directly to the John Jay report. It is apparent from what we know about American society at the time and also what has since been revealed about homosexuality in seminaries. Even John Jay noted priests had been sexually active with other men whilst in seminary school.

            And the facts about the profile of abused teenage boys speak for themselves. Does a heterosexual man have sex with a teenage boy?

            “It was not “homosexuality” which caused the moral collapse in your organization.”

            The collapse was one of failing to respond properly to the abuse. The moral collapse – the mainly homosexual sex abuse of children – affected a very small percentage priests.

            “Homosexual men and women are no more likely to abuse children than heterosexual men and women.”

            Jack has never claimed they were more likely to do so. And celibacy wasn’t an issue either. A small percentage of men were perversely drawn to abuse predominantly young teenage boys. Go figure the rest.

            “The problem was the perverse culture in the Catholic Church, of which you are a prime example.”

            The culture being ignorance about sexual abuse, its perverse, addictive and compulsive nature, and a tendency to forgive and see amendment of behaviour as possible with psychological assistance?

          • AnnieRoux

            Jack is now defensive and confused. You most certainly did attribute those claims to the report. I was in the seminary in the 1970s — homosexuality was not tolerated. More than a few students were expelled, even if they only set foot in a gay bar.

          • “I was in the seminary in the 1970s — homosexuality was not tolerated.”

            *gasp* – have you had a sex change? A man who became a lesbian woman but retained his gender identity? How strange. Or is sweet little ‘Annie’ is really not an ‘Annie’ at all. The ‘she’ who claims to be a lesbian ‘he’ is really an ex-seminarian. How revealing. What a strange person.

            You were in the seminary were you? Was there only one?

            Between 1966 and 1999, the number of seminarians America dropped from 39,638 to 4,826. In 1966, there were approximately 600 seminaries and religious houses that educated future priests. In 1967, 32 seminaries closed. By 1970, 74 more seminaries. By 1996, only 192 seminaries remained – 408 seminaries/houses of formation had closed since 1966).

            The homosexual network within the American hierarchy was documented years ago by Fr. Enrique Rueda in his book ‘The Homosexual Network: Private Lives and Public Policy’. Fr. Rueda exposed the growing network of support groups, counseling referrals, newsletters, and organisations of homosexuals and pro-homosexuals in the Catholic churches of America.

            Msgr. Eugene Clark, rector of St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York, stated in an April, 2002 sermon: “Unfortunately, . . . homosexual students were allowed to pass through seminaries. Grave mistake. Not because homosexuals in any way tend to criminality, but because it is a disorder and, as a disorder, should prevent a person from being ordained a priest.”

            In Michael Rose’s book, ‘Goodbye! Good Men’, he reveals that various American seminaries had such a bad reputation that they have earned nicknames, such as “Notre Flame” (for Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans); “The Theological Closet” (for Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.); and “The Pink Palace” (for St. Mary’s Seminary in Baltimore).

            In his book ‘Lead Us Not Into Temptation: Catholic Priests and the Sexual Abuse of Children (1992)’, Jason Berry found that a third of the students at St. Francis Seminary in southern California were gay. One priest propositioned one student a dozen times over two years, while another was having sex with at least four seminarians at the same time.

            In 1996, Fr. Wayne Wurst stated on a Chicago radio station that at St. Mary’s of the Lake in Mundelein, Illinois “there were madams, pimps, and prostitutes all in a major seminary system that, from the outside, if you were to walk through, would look very holy.” Joseph Kellenyi, a seminarian from 1998-1999 says things have not changed at St. Mary’s. He relates that one hall in the seminary dorm is nicknamed the ‘Catwalk,’ since it housed the more fashionable gays and their accompanying feline personalities. When a seminarian would “come out” and admit of a homosexual orientation, he would be wined and dined (literally) by the seminary faculty in hopes of involving him more deeply. The heterosexual seminarians are forced to trade class notes, tapes and share spiritual readings together just to keep their heads above the rampant perversions surrounding them.

            Happy Jack could go on.

          • AnnieRoux

            You could go on cutting and pasting more of your bigoted BS from other reactionary websites, or you could face the fact that you’re a liar.

            Furthermore, I have never claimed to be a woman or a lesbian. That’s all in Fool Jack’s mind. My avatar comes from a deceased friend of mine.

          • The John Jay Report * reported that “homosexual men entered the seminaries in noticeable numbers from the late 1970s through the 1980s”.

            (*John Jay College of Criminal Justice (2004). ‘The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States, 1950-2010’. p. 38.)

            Evidence is evidence and not lies. These are well known facts and one wonders how these homosexual networks may have impacted on the Catholic’s Church’s failure to respond.

            In a 1989 article in the NCR, Father Andrew Greeley reported that a homosexual subculture of priests existed in most Catholic dioceses. In 2000, The Kansas City Star published a series by Judy L. Thomas discussing the high rate of AIDS infection among Catholic priests in the United States. In the same year, Fr. Donald Cozzens, President-Rector of Saint Mary Catholic Seminary in Cleveland, published ‘The Changing Face of Priesthood, was also published in 2000’. Cozzens argued that American Catholic seminaries were attracting larger and larger numbers of homosexual students and that “Should our seminaries become significantly gay, and many seasoned observers find them to be precisely that, the priesthood of the twenty-first century will likely be perceived as a predominately gay profession” (p. 103).
            Now, my little obsessive poodle, do trot off and spread your propaganda on your favourite sites. Happy Jack will be waiting to challenge your misrepresentations there.

          • AnnieRoux

            Homosexual men were entering seminaries long before 1970. The mere existence of homosexual men in the priesthood does not support your bogus and bias-driven inference that homosexuality itself is a “cause” of the child sex abuse problem, or that “moral laxity” was a contributing factor — with the exception of the bishops’ immoral agenda to conceal it, that is. The priesthood is still disproportional populated with gay men — which is also an effect of the Church’s own making.

          • Well one would hardly expect a University devoted to criminology studies and dependent on funding from secular sources to delve too deeply into the nature of sexual perversity and the evident homosexual networks in America.

            “The priesthood is still disproportional populated with gay men — which is also an effect of the Church’s own making.”

            Now you accept this, having previously denied it?
            But you are correct, it is the ‘progressive’ American Bishops who are responsible for the moral corruption of the priesthood by ignoring Vatican instructions 1961 about admissions of homosexuals to seminaries.

          • AnnieRoux

            I never denied that there are large numbers of homosexual men among the clergy, albeit closeted, dysfunctional and self-loathing. I denied that homosexuality itself and homosexual men in the seminary are root causes of the Church’s sex abuse problem. You will not find that conclusion in the John Jay study. You’re apparently blinded by your antigay agenda and your fetish for all things conservative. Many of your perpetrators were from the most conservative seminaries, where sexual repression is a sacrament.

          • AnnieRoux

            “…a homosexual subculture of priests existed in most Catholic dioceses”

            +++
            A homosexual subculture of human beings exists in every human society. Your point?

          • When a sizable sub-group become influential within an organisation, especially ones exhibiting the traits you assert below (“closeted, dysfunctional and self-loathing”), the point is rather obvious to all but the dim witted or those with a vested interest in undermining Christian morality.

            Pope Francis said last year in a private audience with Latin American prelates: “In the Curia there are holy people, truly holy people, but there is also a current of corruption, also there is, it is true … They speak of a ‘gay lobby’, and that is true, it is there. We will have to see what we can do.”

            Elmar Mader, ex-commander of the Swiss Guard from 2002 to 2008, recently seconded the rumors of an active network of homosexuals within the Vatican. He added, “I also learned that many homosexuals are inclined to be more loyal to each other than to other people or institutions. If this loyalty were to go so far as to become a network or even a kind of secret society, I would not tolerate it in my sphere of decision making. Key people in the Vatican now seem to agree.”

          • AnnieRoux

            Oh my!!! This is Happy Jack’s Church.

          • Indeed it is and it has faced trials and crises before in its 2000 year history. No matter the opposition, we have Christ’s promise the ‘gates of Hell’ will not prevail.

            Translation: you’re backing the wrong side.

          • AnnieRoux

            Nonsense, the Gates of Hell have prevailed again and again — for those the Church enslaved and murdered, for those the Church sexually abused, and for those whose language and culture the Church destroyed.

          • That’s just vain grandstanding and wishful thinking by an enemy of Christianity. Is Christianity dead? Has the Catholic Church disappeared? What ideology has proven more superior or powerful than the truth of God as revealed in Scripture and through His Church?

            In pledging that the “gates of hell” would not prevail against the Church, Christ wasn’t promising the Church impeccability or that it would be free from error in the conduct of its affairs. He was promising that Satan and his minions (that’s you, by the way) would not defeat it and that its doctrine and teachings would remain free from error.

            In his homily prior to the convening of the conclave where he was selected as Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger gave this insight into the struggle of our age:

            “How many winds of doctrine we have known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking… The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves – thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. Every day new sects are created and what Saint Paul says about human trickery comes true, with cunning which tries to draw those into error (cf Eph 4, 14).

            The Church is in the middle of an assault at this time from your ilk and those who support man made novel ideas. The answer? Again, as the then Cardinal Ratzinger said:

            “Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and “swept along by every wind of teaching,” looks like the only attitude (acceptable) to today’s standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”

            The Church will weather this storm too. It may take a generation or more, but it will withstand the assault. The Church may shrink; it may lose influence in the world; it may be besieged, However, no matter, it will survive. That, or Christ will return.

          • AnnieRoux

            You can’t it – you’re just another reactionary fundamentalist idiot.

          • Very erudite. Now hop on your broomstick and bugger off.

          • AnnieRoux

            Go bugger yourself, I’ll stay as long as I like, Happy Jerk.

          • Little Black Censored

            You are a religious version of Linus.

          • AnnieRoux

            Oh my!!! Imagine… the dysfunctional and closeted misfits becoming influential within the Church… Hmm… what does that say about the Church, I wonder? Obviously, the antigay lobby and the fundamentalist dolt lobby have not been influential.

          • AnnieRoux

            “especially ones exhibiting the traits you assert below (“closeted, dysfunctional and self-loathing”)”

            +++
            How do you think they got that way? The Church’s dysfunctional and self-loathing teaching on homosexuality.

          • All sin is self abuse because it is living contrary to God design and plan for us. It can only lead to human misery and unhappiness and the corruption of communities.

          • AnnieRoux

            I don’t know any gay married couples who are miserable, unhappy or corrupting our communities — and you don’t, either.

          • AnnieRoux

            Also, “the rest of society” was well beyond the criminal negligence of the Catholic Church in terms of dealing with child sex abuse. Your minimization of the Church’s culpability means that you are part of the problem.

          • William Lewis

            An old flame Happy Jack?

          • Lol …. Jack wishes she would burn herself out.

            A witch visiting from the West who once claimed she is more of a man than Happy Jack.

          • Linus

            More amateur psychiatric analysis from the usual suspect, I see.

            Oh the pretension of the partially educated! It never fails to amuse.

            While our (self-proclaimed) omniscient Jack of all trades, master of none, continues to opine about subjects where his knowledge runs no further than a hastily read Wikipedia article or two, and in doing so libels the fellow man he claims to love, let me say that if this is evidence of the perfecting power of Christ’s love, it’s pretty clear this religion is as empty and meaningless as the rituals of the Church that peddles it.

            And by their fruits shall ye judge them. That particular piece of folk wisdom applies directly to Jack. By vengeful and libellous comments directly calculated to insult the memory of my parents, he reveals the utterly fictitious nature of his faith. He cries “Lord! Lord!” and then tries to tear his enemy to shreds like a vindictive child with no thoughts of love, compassion or respect for the departed, if not for the living. Just pure hatred and rage filling the empty hole that passes for his heart.

            Here we have him, Mesdames, Messieurs, Jack the true Christian. And what an unedifying spectacle he is. If this is what Christianity turns you into, what is God? I shudder to think…!!!

          • Tsk, tsk …. more accusations of libel, Linus? Such defensiveness. Jack has clearly touched a vulnerable spot.

            Pour it all out, there’s a good chap. Clear the angst and then maybe you’ll be able to face your demons. Jack is being charitable in confronting you. It may help you uncover the truth about your hatred of heterosexuality and your thinly disguised hatred of faith and the Church. The jealousy, envy and spite you display about priests is the ‘tell’. Your peacock-like displays and attempts at elegant prose and your obsessional attention to detail and image, are other signs. Really, it’s all so obvious.

          • Linus

            Thank you for confirming my poor opinion of Christians. And as they are, so is their Church.

    • dannybhoy

      For various reasons the British -especially we English, are not much given to extremism or rebellion. There are lots of theories for this; some flattering some not so. Whatever, I recall Wat Tyler’s rebellion in my home county, the events leading up to the formulation of the Magna Carta, and the English Civil War in the 17th century.
      My dear (Geordie) father always said that the English were mostly placid, tolerant people, and I think that still holds true. The popularity of Nigel Farage is due to the fact he doesn’t talk like a politician, and he says things that many people believe to be true., and he is not a racist.
      He has become the mouthpiece for an awful lot of folk who don’t hate foreigners, and are by and large compassionate and tolerant.
      They are concerned about what uncontrolled immigration is doing to our nation, its infrastructure and wages, plus of course the phenomenon of acts of terrorism being perpetrated by people who are officially regarded as British, yet manifestly hate us…

  • saintmark

    Hitler had a German girlfriend, Farage has a German wife, that’s more than enough for the Left to equate with one another.

  • Darach Conneely

    …insults the sacred memory of six million Jews by juxtaposing their harrowing fate with Ukip’s plans for EU migrants…
    Farage hasn’t killed anybody, but neither did Griffin or Mosley. What they share in common and share with Hitler, is stirring up hatred of people outside their own race, blaming the vulnerable minorities for the economic problems and unemployment, building their political base on fear and hatred. Is it an insult to the Jews, gypsies communists and homosexuals who died in the holocaust to oppose the politics of hate?

    • Royinsouthwest

      Why shouldn’t Britain’s immigration policy be one designed in the interests of the British people? Do you think Brazil, South Africa, India, Singapore and Taiwan don’t take the interests of their own people as the main factor in their immigration policies?

      Don’t you think that people such as yourself who deliberately ignore the problems created by mass immigration have no responsibility for creating those problems?

      • Darach Conneely

        What problems caused by mass immigration? They make a net contribution to the economy and the NHS. Problems with housing and schooling are a failure of planning for changing demographics, the responsibility of Councils and Government. The only problem is they provide a focus for racist rhetoric.

        • Dominic Stockford

          No, the problems are caused by having no control on immigration, thus having no idea how may might or might not enter the country, and thus not knowing how much to provide in the way of hospitals or schools and so on.

          Canada, Australia, the US, all keep control in order to try to be able to provide fairly for all citizens. We choose not to, and are gradually failing to more and more miserably.

          • Merchantman

            The internationalist left is always in favour of democracies losing their identity. It suits their agenda. However its strange how the flagships of mono-culturalism are I suggest Russia, North Korea, China, Zimbabwe and various other unpleasant regimes.

          • carl jacobs

            The problem is not immigration of different races. The accusation of racism comes from this strange conception of “England for the English” that I encounter here from time to time. Land is not divinely apportioned according to race where ‘your race’ is entitled to ‘its land’ in perpetuity.

            The problem is the importation of an alien culture of such size that it cannot be assimilated. In practice that means an alien religion. There must be broad agreement on worldview in a nation or the culture of the nation will fracture. It is a presupposition of the Left that religion is incidental. It is importing an alien religion on the assumption that this is independent of sustaining the current culture. That is a serious error in judgment.

          • Dreadnaught

            The problem is the importation of an alien culture of such size that it cannot be assimilated.

            The problem is much more complicated and in no small part down to the determination of some immigrants not wishing to integrate but re-create the old homeland in the new – and on a small crowded island.

          • carl jacobs

            Dreadnaught

            the determination of some immigrants not wishing to integrate but re-creating the old homeland in the new – and on a small crowded island.

            Yes, that’s what I said.

            an alien culture of such size that it cannot be assimilated

            If these were Arab Christians, it wouldn’t be some much a of a problem. If the Muslim population was small enough, it wouldn’t matter. But the expansion of unreconstructed Islam is seen as threatening the fundamental assumptions of the culture.

          • CliveM

            Personally except for the sheer numbers involved, I have little problems with Eastern European immigration in principle. It is the more ‘culturally’ challenging immigrants I have concerns with.

          • You’re talking Islam? Many of the European immigrants are Christian.

          • carl jacobs

            It’s Islam that is driving the existential angst. If this was just about Eastern Europeans and jobs, it would be much less contentious.

          • Agreed.

          • Johnnyrvf

            Russia. Oh dear, how little you know.

          • Darach Conneely

            The US is much nearer in size (316 million) to the EU (500 million) than the UK’s 63 million. If anything, your argument supports membership of the EU and the free movement EU citizens enjoy. Even if you want to wreck the economy by cutting yourself off from your trading partners in the EU, unless you go back to Feudal serfdom, you will still have freedom of movement for English, Welsh, Scots and Irish mucking up town planning. The closure of places of employment and the opening up of new ones are a much bigger source of uncertainty in town planning than EU immigration, because that is what attracts people to towns and cities. If EU immigrants make the situation worse it is by adding to the economy creating new jobs.

          • Royinsouthwest

            The US is much nearer in size (316 million) to the EU (500 million) than the UK’s 63 million.

            You conveniently ignored the fact that Dominic also mentioned Canada and Australia, both of which have populations a lot smaller than Britain’s and vastly more space in which to accommodate increases in population.

          • Dreadnaught

            Even if you want to wreck the economy by cutting yourself off from your trading partners in the EU

            Like we did when we bailed out the Irish Banks you mean?

            Almost one pound in every four injected into the two
            state-backed banks by the Government has gone directly into the Irish economy, the two lenders’ subsidiary accounts show.
            Together with the bank bail-outs, the UK taxpayer has
            propped up the Irish economy with at least £20bn, which will renew questions about how the Labour government handled the bail-outs in 2008-09. Last week,Grant Shapps, the Conservative Party chairman, said Labour “massively
            overpaid”

            Daily Telegraph Jan 2013

          • Darach Conneely

            And we are very grateful for the help. A lot of us PIGS would have gone under during the global recession if it weren’t for the EU, though Merckel’s austerity policies, like Cameron’s have mainly helped the very rich while hurting the poorest and slowing the recovery. But Britain will be able to wreck it’s economy while the rest of the world is coming out of the recession by cutting itself off from its European trading partners.

          • Dreadnaught

            Why refer to your Country as a nation of PIGS – I don’t get it.

          • Pubcrawler

            I think he means PIIGS (Portugal Ireland Italy Greece Spain) — the economies shafted by EMU.

            Then again, maybe not…

          • Darach Conneely

            Portugal Ireland Greece Spain (and Italy)

          • carl jacobs

            The US is not a good model for the EU. There is no broad European identity. People are still Germans or British or Italian first and that won’t change. There is no common history. There is no common culture. There is no common language. There is no common bond. You can’t force these things by bureaucratic edict. The end result of the attempt will be the Hapsburg Empire writ large.

          • “People are still Germans or British or Italian first and that won’t change.”

            You didn’t mention the French. You know, that once proud nation that gave you secularism and supported your colonial revolt against rightful authority.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack

            I hear you talking but you don’t seem to be saying anything.

          • That’s because your in denial.

          • AnnieRoux

            y-o-u-‘-r-e

            Tsk, tsk… subpar education?

          • Darach Conneely

            I would have though the US was more ethnically diverse than Europe, with a population drawn no only from European migrants, but their own Native Americans, large numbers of unwilling Africans, Latin Americans, and variety of Asian cultures. Europe has had thousands of years of common Greco-Roman and before that Celtic. Latin was the lingua franca of science, religion trade and diplomacy for thousands of years, long before the rise of modern nationalism.

          • carl jacobs

            Darach Conneely

            That’s all well and good but it’s not relevant. An American says something like this: “I am an American. I am from California. I live in Texas.” His identity is tied to the overall nation and not to its sub-regions. There is no corresponding European Identity. A German does not say “I am a European from Germany.” He is a German. He does not see (say) a Greek as a fellow citizen of the same national entity. This is why the EU can never really succeed.

        • Royinsouthwest

          The economic argument is dubious. What about over population? You say nothing about social cohesion. Didn’t the mass rape of young white girls (and to a lesser extent, Sikh girls) over a period of a couple of decades in towns such as Rotherham have anything to do with immigration? What about terrorism by “British” jihadis?

          There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    • William Lewis

      You can associate those who would oppose uncontrolled immigration with racial hatred if you like, but fortunately more people are recognising this particular slur for what it is: ad-hominem designed to close down the debate.

      • magnolia

        There is a vital economic difficulty. I actually have a decidedly soft spot for the Poles, and am certainly in no way against Eastern Europeans. Are all people of all races vitally important and made in the image and likeness of God? Of course. Should we love them as our neighbours? Yes.

        Should we encourage a situation where those whose families have been in any country- not just ours- for centuries and have deep roots and heaps of relations there, be forced to move out because an immigrant is willing to do the job that person A has done for decades cheaper, because the cost of living is cheaper in his native country, to which he plans to send money back and then return? It is not feasible to say a general yes to that whatever countries are involved. It is ultimately both inefficient and unjust. and the only ones who gain are the multinational companies.

    • dannybhoy

      I’m a UKIP man and I don’t, never have, hated anybody. I’m also a supporter of Israel, against antisemitism or disliking people because they’re a different colour skin.
      That doesn’t mean I can’t want to protect and preserve my own culture and history as you also wish to do, Darach Conneely……

      • carl jacobs

        The campaign for Scottish independence isn’t intended to protect or preserve anything. It’s an adolescent fantasy as demonstrated by their poor planning for post-independent existence. For the life of me, I don’t understand why the British Gov’t just doesn’t say “No. We are keeping sovereignty.”

        • dannybhoy

          Because dear Colonial Carl, they (British government) have already decided to give away our sovereignty to Brussels. They won’t come out and say it yet until it’s a done deal and at that point the government will turn around and tell the British people that “unfortunately the legal contractual commitments already entered into by previous British governments are legally binding and we are now a part -a province- of the EUSSR….
          That’s how we do things here Carl. We pretend to be simply bumbling along, when in reality we are being sold down the River.. Seine 😉

        • bluedog

          The Scotland Act 1996 enables the UK parliament to do exactly that, end all devolved powers granted to Scotland. The question is, how would the minority who voted for ‘independence’ react if the Holyrood parliament were shut down? The Scots rioted in 1707 when their previous parliament was shut down and today’s British political elite probably couldn’t manage a repeat of that with attendant headlines. The troubles in Northern Ireland were bad enough.

      • Darach Conneely

        British culture is vastly richer because of all the contributions of immigrant and refugees that came to you shores. Your national food is Tikka Masala and chips, the former invented in an Indian restaurant with the help of a tin of British tomato soup to satisfy the British desire for sauce with the chicken. Your chips were invented in Belgium (though the French disagree). Handel’s Messiah a Christmas tradition was written by a German who spent most of his life in London. Even Morris dancing is Flemish. Huguenot refugees from religious persecution in France contributed greatly to British industry and prosperity. The Irish built your canal and roads, and gave you Jonathan Swift, Oliver Goldsmith, Bram Stoker, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, Yeats, Samuel Beckett, C. S. Lewis, Bono and Bob Geldof. Are you talking about the tradition in British culture of welcoming immigrants and refugees and being enriched in turn by their contribution? Or does Ukip only want to preserve that small minded tradition of being suspicious of ‘Johnny Foreigner’.

        • dannybhoy

          “Your national food is Tikka Masala and chips”

          The only other national food I like is Italian, expecially their ice cream. Otherwise traditional British food with either brown sauce, ketchup, vinegar or pepper sauce.

          I have travelled the world and enjoyed seeing other countries, but I don’t understand the argument that to be a good virtuous citizen I should want unlimited numbers of them living here.

          Much earlier immigration was because of (Christian) religious intolerance rather than economic migration.

          E.g, Huegenots…

          “Stigmatized by oppressive laws and facing severe
          persecution, many Huguenots (Protestants) fled France. In 1681, Charles II of England offered sanctuary to the Huguenots, and from 1670 to 1710, between 40,000 and 50,000 Huguenots from all walks of life sought refuge in England. Historians estimate around half of these moved to
          London – many settling in Spitalfields, where food and housing were cheaper, and there was more freedom from the economic controls of the guilds. By 1700 there were nine Huguenot churches in Spitalfields,
          where in 1685 there had been none….

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/london/article_1.shtm

          The Irish..(Also Christians. also British)
          “Irish Migration to Great Britain began long before the famine of 1845-1847. Seasonal workers (Spalpeens) had been traveling to England to supplement their income by performing harvesting and other temporary work since the early 1800’s…”

          http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlmayo2/irish_migration_england.html

          Yes there has been immigration, but not unlimited immigration; nor of other non Christian cultures who may be dis-inclined unlike the Jews, to become a part of our society.

          The reason that this country became great was not because of immigration, but rather because it became a strong stable nation, (outwardly) believing in Christian values, growing freedoms,education, exploration and trade, the wealth created by the Industrial and Agricultural revolutions and social reforms..
          UKIP believes in national self determination, better education, a stronger economy, more trade overseas and a political system more accountable to the people.

          • CliveM

            Interesting use of “your” don’t you think?

          • William Lewis

            Yes. Darach seems to think that he knows better that which is good for our country than we do.

          • CliveM

            I have no problems with him being a Irish. I have no problems with him commenting on UK affairs. What I object to is the misrepresentation of the right.

            But then he isn’t the only one. Abuse is so much easier then a rational debate.

        • Dreadnaught

          Bono! – Hahahahahaha – so vain the thought the Pope may appreciate a pair of his sunglasses Hahahaha – what a Twat.

        • magnolia

          Please please please spare us the Morris dancers!! The Flemish can take them all back if they gave us that!!

          • And Bob Geldof …..

          • Darach Conneely

            I suppose hating Morris dancers is a British tradition too.

          • magnolia

            I prefer men who don’t tie jingly little bells to their trousers, jog up and down in a faux-jolly way, and bang sticks together looking meaningful.

            The only part of it that makes sense is the drink at the pub….

        • OK Darach.

          260,000 net inward migration last year, that’s with Cameron in charge who said he was trying to reduce the level.

          Allowing for inflation, and not counting illegals, that’s getting on for another 2 million over the course of the next Parliament if its not UKIP.

          Lets assume they will all be as grateful and helpful as the rather small number of Huguenots who came here to escape death just across the channel, to Frances loss and our gain. They learn English, bring skills we need, obey the law and integrate. We both know that ain’t so, but lets just imagine.

          Where are they going to live? Where will an extra 2,000,000 people be housed.

          That’s all I’m asking. Where will they live? In what physical accommodation and location. Details please.

          • Darach Conneely

            Don’t blame the immigrants for the failure of successive government and town councils to build sufficient housing since Maggie had the brilliant idea to sell off council housing. Could have had a thriving construction industry funded by by the money from all the sales. But obviously this total failure of government and Councils is the fault of immigrants.

          • A predictable deflection of a straight and significant question Darach.

            So the UK housing crisis is Maggie’s fault and recent net inward migration of 5 million is nothing to do with it? I always said socialists were crap at sums.

            You seem to imply that the UK local and national government are obliged to build as many new homes as are required for as many as wish to come here.

            Again, assuming the 2 million more immigrants expected by 2020 are all legal, useful and keen to integrate, where precicely are the new homes going to be built and who’s paying for them?

          • CliveM

            By the use of a magic wand!

          • Darach Conneely

            Yes, it is the responsibility of local and national governments to plan and provide for future demographic changes. People wouldn’t come if there weren’t jobs and if it wasn’t Eastern Europeans it would be people from Yorkshire, Wales, Scotland and Ireland moving in taking the jobs and needing homes and schools for their kids. Where European immigrants are to blame it is by adding to the local economy, as part of their contribution to the National economy. With a more thriving economy local businesses grow and the immigrants themselves create job. Which brings in more people to the area needing housing. Who is paying for the housing? Remember? These immigrants are contributing more to the economy than they cost.

          • I can see why you prefer to dodge the question Darach. Let me ask it a third time, trying to make it more particular to see if I can actually get you to think rather than repeat leftist mantras.

            Let me try to make it a lttle more specific. I live in a smallish village outside Southampton. There is a road through the middle of the village and the traffic is terrible. I recently had to wait 6 weeks to see my GP (OK it wasn’t urgent). The smaller roads are potholed and almost impassable. Commuting into Southampton has been getting worse every 6 months or so due to sheer extra numbers all the time. Our local hospital is on black alert, which means basically they are failing due to sheer numbers.

            We have been told by government that we have to have an extra 6,000 homes in Botley. The infrastructure can’t cope and everyone is against it. It will abolish Botley as a village, we will become contiguous with Southampton. But its a top down government diktat. After all, got to put all those extra peeps somewhere.

            There is a lot of pressure on housing due to white flight from the centre of town which is filling up with Somalis. Very fertile they are, lots of veiled women pushing prams with a couple of toddlers in tow. The males generally are to be seen in groups outside the coffee shops and Polish off licences.Of course it is extremely evil and bigoted of me of me in the view of some to admit to doubting the vibrancy of this rainbow enrichment of my locality. Certainly there is a boom in jobs for interpreters, generously funded by our grandchildren who will have to repay the money we are borrowing to pay them.

            What would you say to the people of my community and thousands like it who are being forced to accept large additional housing developments they don’t want?

        • dannybhoy

          Darach Conneely,
          (That’s a proud ethnic name of ever I saw one!)
          I was in the doctor’s surgery this evening and picked up the Independent.
          I read this article and immediately thought of you and others holding similar views to your own.
          “Lebanese unrest over growing number of Syrian refugees leads to violence on the streets..”
          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/lebanese-unrest-over-the-growing-number-of-syrian-refugees-leads-to-violence-on-the-streets-9956994.html

          Please read it very carefully and reflect..

          • Inspector General

            It’s a racist name, no less :->

          • Darach Conneely

            Lebanon the country torn apart by civil wars and invasions for the last 40 years?

          • dannybhoy

            No, not that Darach
            (lovely name btw..)
            Although pertinent there were other bits I thought you might pick up on..
            Like,
            “His injuries are the result of a recent attack
            by a group of Lebanese men as he was walking home from his construction
            job. His crime? “I’m Syrian,” he says.”

            ” The country hosts 1.5 million registered Syrian refugees, an increase
            of at least 25 per cent since 2011. They compete for limited resources
            and undercut Lebanese wages.”
            “The international community is struggling to allocate additional
            resources to ensure that Lebanon’s hospitality will not run out.”
            “From Monday, Lebanon is imposing unprecedented new restrictions on the
            entry of Syrians, requiring them to provide the length and intention of
            their stay, in an effort to stem the numbers entering.”

            “Mr Yasin says Syrians are cheating the (Lebanese) system; enjoying UNHCR benefits
            but also competing with Lebanese. “They are working, they are not
            refugees,” he says.”

            A Syrian has opened a money exchange business around the
            corner, which he says has driven his business down 75 per cent because “Syrians buy from Syrians”.

            “He gestures with his cane.
            “That’s a Syrian shop,” he says, pointing to a mobile phone shop across the street. “And that one too.”

            “The residents of Masnaa don’t mind the Syrians, Mr Yasin insists. They are good people, but their presence is taking its toll. The village infrastructure is not equipped for the influx. His rent has tripled. Previously, he received six hours of electricity a day; now that’s a rarity and water is always running out. “We want them to go back, but
            where to send them?” he asks.

            “The UN agrees that Lebanon is at capacity. The number of poor has risen
            by two-thirds since March 2011 and unemployment has doubled.”

            “In December, the UN and the Lebanese government launched a new £1.38bn plan designed to help host communities, with almost 20 per cent directed to institutional and community support.”

            Them’s the bits Darach, and what I would like to ask you is if you think the United Kindom – or any country for that matter, can continue to take in immigrants. Whether economic migrants or refugees or whatever, without it placing the same kind of strain on our own infrastructure, our land, our natural resources, our economy and our security?

    • Dreadnaught

      ‘stirring up hatred of people outside their own race’ ??
      Bollocks sir!

      • You took the word right out of my mouth Dreaders.

        Massive great pigs bollocks.

    • Inspector General

      Darach

      Communists and homosexuals did not die in the holocaust. Let’s get that clear. They will have died in the concentration camps but they were not earmarked for destruction. Gypsies shouldn’t have either, but operational considerations, in the form of continuing numbers of gypsies being rounded up leading to overcrowding in said camps meant that a few hundred thousand had to be got rid of to make space. The NAZIs were obeyers of orders above all. They were not ordered to mass murder anyone but the hapless Jews, and unless it was expedient to do so, they didn’t.

      Interestingly the Wiki article of ‘Gypsies and the Holocaust’ or something similarly entitled, has it completely wrong. Never come across another Wiki article so drowned in inaccuracies as that one. The whole account in its reasoning being a fabrication.

      • Darach Conneely

        Hitler didn’t consider Gypsies subhuman, untermenschen?

        • Inspector General

          He considered them asocials. Same category as criminals….

          • CliveM

            Not sure their is an awful lot to be gained by “appearing” to minimise some of his crimes!!

          • Inspector General

            One must also add that they may well have gone the same way that the Slavs were heading, but after the war. There was great angst in NAZI circles of a) the effect the murder was having on the SS men involved. b) The risk the crime would be discovered by the German people. Post war extermination would have been carried out in what by then would have been NAZI Siberia. No one would then have guessed at the awful truth and been considered sane.

        • magnolia

          Of course they did persecute gypsies, but those who have not been mentioned in the list of persecuted here and whose suffering may have gone least noticed are the deaf, blind and disabled, but then generally they frequently are the lesser-heard.

          • Darach Conneely

            Agreed. And you can point out the Government’s the mistreatment of the sick and disabled, their deaths as the result of sanctions,, and the way politicians and newspapers label them as scroungers, has echoes the language and morality of the holocaust, without it being an insult to Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

          • CliveM

            More unsupported allegations. Well you certainly know how to scare monger and spread hatred. Not sure when you accuse Farage for doing so it’s because you condem him or praise him.

          • Darach Conneely
          • CliveM

            Yes, and?

    • tiger

      Darach; What an absolute load of tripe.

      Hilter’s National Socialists saw the Jews as controlling the wealth of Germany to the detriment of ordinary Germans.

      Here we have a bunch of lefty loonies conspiring to do the exact opposite. They conspire with big business in the EU to incorporate former poor Iron Curtain countries to a) enable their workers to come into strong economies and undercut the wages of their workers and b) transfer wealth to the poor countries ( wealth redistribution).

      The only winners are the already filthy rich that benefit from the process and whose money finances their political lives and retirement after politics.

      Nigel Farage has been been clear on UKIP immigration policy. They welcome immigrants with skills that will enhance the economy but do not compete with those professional, skilled and unskilled workers in the UK

      • Darach Conneely

        And Farage blame immigrants for being a drain on the British economy to the detriment of ordinary Britons. The details of lies change, but the scapegoating of minorities and preaching hatred to build up political support is the same.

        • William Lewis

          He does not say that they are all a drain on the economy, though some, no doubt are. Indeed he thinks it’s a good idea to allocate work permits to those who undoubtedly add value to the country. However, he does say that they are bad for many working class Britons. Which is true. Unlike the continuous FUD that you are disseminating on this comment thread.

          • Darach Conneely

            Anyone who come over here and works adds to the economy, whether they are doctors and engineers or packing meat in a factory. If you got rid of the immigrants, you wouldn’t have more jobs for working class Britons, you would have a smaller economy and a smaller economy has fewer jobs.

          • William Lewis

            They may add to the visible economy, but there are other intangible costs to the economy that increase as the ratio of foreign to native workers increases. For instance the extra costs of providing public services e.g. health and schooling to non-english speaking and/or culturally divergent people. They also drive down wages for everyone, so work is less likely to pay than being on benefits. If they lose their job they can claim benefits after a while without having paid much in to the system. There are also cultural stresses and strains inherent in the resulting multicultural environment. These may have to be policed, for instance, Romano gypsie crime and Tower Hamlets election fraud. And, of course, our economy cannot just keep growing forever. We have limited resources which need to be preserved for the British, we are talking about Britain after all. One extra, cheap, foreign worker does not, necessarily, equate to a Pareto improvement.

            So it’s not as black and white as you would have it, even if you just look at the economic arguments.

          • magnolia

            That doesn’t apply in these days with automation. There is a lack of lower-skilled jobs.

          • Darach Conneely

            Plenty of skilled people are unemployed or working in minimum wage jobs who would leave that position if a skilled job came up. Skilled, unskilled are not neat boxes. Unskilled workers are affected by unemployment rate across the board not just unskilled jobs. Migrants set up 1 in seven of new companies in the UK and it is new companies that are least likely to be automated.

          • magnolia

            “Migrants set up 1 in 7 ..new companies in the UK”

            Well, maybe, but of these companies how many add to the quality of life? How many show sensitivity and care to the nature and wild flowers of the country? How many understand the native ways of husbandry of the land? How many are pro free speech and moderation?

            Quality of life is far more than merely materialistic. Furthermore many new companies fail, many occupy already crowded markets and are not top of the class anyway, some are run fraudulently, some are the latest fad but have no roots and soon dwindle, and others push out other perfectly good companies, and make their staff redundant by snaffling a celebrity and advertising incessantly. Think crisps.

            So of itself the setting up of a new company is a not a necessary guaranteed good, as parts of the AIM show all too clearly!

            I

        • tiger

          Once again you display complete and utter ignorance of reality.
          My family is £9K/pa poorer because if East European migrants. Our employers told us to our faces; “If you don’t like what we pay you, there are a line of East Europeans standing at the door that will happily work for the money you are earning.”
          There are millions of Britons in exactly the same boat. They have had their incomes and life styles destroyed by cheap foreign labour. They know it and the Govt know it. The employer hasn’t been passing on the reduced cost of running their business but pocketing the profits.
          It doesn’t require Nigel Farage to tell us this, we already know. This is why UKIP is such a threat to Labour and one of the reasons why Labour is so unpopular with working people now. Look at the widening wage gap between ordinary workers and the management and you’ll see why there is open resentment.
          This has to be tackled head on because continuing political failure to address the concerns of the poor will eventually lead to violent revolution. For historical precedent look at history; Russian and French revolutions.
          The reality is that there is a complete disconnect between politicians and the electorate and the EU is part of a greater socialist construct. UKIP sees what is happening and connects with the concerns of ordinary people whose daily lives are being wrecked by the EU socialist construct. Where I live we now have huge numbers of fishermen who have just been confined to harbour and unable to work because of EU quotas whilst they watch French and Spanish vessels fishing their fishing grounds and can do nothing.
          We don’t blame the immigrants for they are doing what they have to do to survive just like us. There have not been attacks on migrants but there is resentment. We blame the politicians that put us in this situation.

          • Darach Conneely

            That is why we need a living wage. and we need to make sure immigrants are paid the same living wage British workers are paid. Blaming immigrants simply plays into the hands of big business trying to keep wages down.

          • tiger

            See, there you go again. More laws to make people do things. No we don’t immigrants with no skills/artisans. We have enough of our own people with no skills and artisans. Economies in the West are driven by supply and demand. Too much labour leads to depressed wages. Get people into work, they spend their income to create more jobs etc etc.

    • CliveM

      Well Mosely at least used physical intimidation.

      Really so far you have come on this site, used a scatter gun approach to issue unsupported allegations. Resolutely refused to back them up with supporting evidence. Your approach could be used as a case history of how the left operates.

  • peter collard

    So are they proposing to let everyone into the country without restriction – free entry for all?
    If not then its not a question of principle; its only a question of where you draw the line.

  • peter collard

    The “left” are trying to leave the next generation the biggest national debt they can. But of course that’s fair and just. Discuss.

    • magnolia

      The coalition has only decreased the rate at which we accrue the national debt, a key fact few grasp. Nigel Farage actually understands how manipulated the markets are, how unfree, how the central bankers are building us a house of cards, how the derivatives market has become blown up again, many of the frauds being pumped into the system, and the giant frauds of the EU and all the Marxist infested sustainability puritans. This makes him unusual.

      While money is being drawn like iron filings towards favoured cartels and central banks and bankers, and the 0.001% oligarchs, while Putin is being demonised prior to what usually happens post demonisation, ie economic and then military warfare, while people are being demonised for daring to breathe out CO2, and while money goes from West to East these not with it idiots are focussed on lesser relevant issues because they have been trained like chimps to think is it PC, or not PC and not to think independently.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Classic liberal claptrap, and utterly unbecoming behaviour for a group claiming to be part of the church of Christ.

  • The Explorer

    I think the poster is muddled in its message. It starts with Hitler and ends with Farage, and asks if this is evolution. Strictly speaking, that says look at what a promising start has dwindled into.
    Presumably, the poster means to say the opposite: what starts off as Farage can end up as Hitler. In which case, the figures on the poster seem to me to be the wrong way round.

    • Good point. But since someone has mentioned Hitler and Evolution in the same breath……

      Google Richard Weikart’s scholarly book ‘From Darwin to Hitler’. I will eat all three of my Les Pauls if the BBC ever serialises this book.:-)

      • sarky

        You have 3 Les Pauls? Thats just greedy.

        • Pubcrawler

          Isn’t it though? In the spirit of Luke 3.11, I think he should give one to me.

        • Just think of the tax I paid on them……

      • avi barzel

        Eat two if you must. I’d dearly like one of them. A vintage traditional sunburst, if you have…

        • Sorry Avi, I really must stop swearing on my guitars…..just trying to use an extreme situation to exemplify an event of sufficiently low probabality that it will certainly never happen.

          • avi barzel

            Alright, alright, apologies accepted. Just that a few of us here succumbed to the sins of jealousy and avarice at the mention of your collection. I won’t ask how many and what else you have. No, no, that would be prying…right?

  • len

    A better use of a ‘thought provoking mural’ for the church in question might be ‘what is the role of the church in society today?’.
    The simple fact regarding immigrants who wish to come here is that the UK is an Island with limited resources and it would seem that stating this fact is enough to make one a racist?.
    The system can only take so much then it will collapse like a house of cards leaving total chaos.

    In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
    George Orwell (This could be said of many aspects of ‘Political Correctness’)

    • dannybhoy

      Well said Len.

    • The Explorer

      I remember a comment from the audience one ‘Question Time’, that all those who wished to better themselves should be allowed into the UK.
      But suppose a hundred million decided they wanted to better themselves…?
      PS: The speaker, a multiculturalist, was involved in an unconscious contradiction. For how can you better yourself if all cultures are equal?

      • dannybhoy

        Absolutely. I always thought that if cultures and faiths really were of equal value, why does everybody want to come to the West, and not Saudi Arabia or Somalia or even India? China perhaps?

        • Merchantman

          Wish too they would travel without their baggage.

  • abystander

    I thought the fat BNP bore was Welsh.

    I wouldn’t vote for Farage in a million years but they shouldn’t be comparing him to Hitler.

    But you have to remember the Piskies are an odd lot.

  • Shadrach Fire

    Your Grace,
    I thought that Charities that get tax refunds were supposed to be apolitical. Having no political interest. Able to lobby on certain issues but generally not in support or opposed to any particular party.
    This church and it’s reverend should use it’s prime poster position to promote the Gospel, not a political decree.

    • Dominic Stockford

      It would indeed be interesting if someone were to make an official complaint to the charity commission – which would almost certainly be upheld.

  • If a Scots minister is looking for National Socialists they should look close to home.

    • CliveM

      Their are certainly plenty of nationalist socialists!

    • Yep ..

  • I’ve been expecting a filthy election campaign, the ruling liberal elite haven’t had their settled narrative challenged like this since Thatcher, and what’s more the Farage rebellion is attraction dissilusioned working class people not just the shafted middle.

    Expect rage, hate and misrepresentation worthy of a 1960s agit prop pro abortion street performer as May approaches.

    • dannybhoy

      It’s going to be a dirty campaign, which absolutely saddens me. Campaigns should be conducted around the issues that matter to the people, not the politicians.

      • The current Cons and Liebore for that matter are only capable of slinging mud. Witty,creative observations that reflect the truth and capture peoples’ imagination to vote for them seems to be far beyond their capabilities.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Are you saying Mrs May is coming to a town near me? Please, no….

    • bluedog

      Throughout English history, civil revolt has emerged in Kent. This year seems to be no exception.

      • Anton

        Dangerously near the continent eh, bluedog?

        • bluedog

          Well, it is Trans-Manche after all.

  • CliveM

    Considering the banality of these murals, I’m surprised they didn’t include Mrs Thatcher and stuck her between Hitler and Mosely.

    That way they could of included a key hate figure and garnered further kudos.

  • NeartheEdge

    All this proves to me is this site is itself as extreme far right and as anti-Christ as the kippers themselves. Thanks for clearing that up.

    • Exactly, as in not at all.

      Have a nice sleep and carry on taking the slogans.

    • William Lewis

      You seem a bit too near the edge, NeartheEdge

      • dannybhoy

        very good!

        • William Lewis

          Much obliged to you.

    • Royinsouthwest

      Why do you think that? You give no reasons. Perhaps you have no sympathy at all for those British people have to send their children to primary schools where the majority of the children are immigrants who have a poor command of English. How many people who love to parade their liberal views live in areas with such schools?

      I am not blaming the children of immigrants or the immigrants themselves. I do blame the left wingers who deliberately turn a blind eye to the problems of mass immigration as long as they themselves do not have to suffer those problems.

    • Dominic Stockford

      UKIP has the only party leader who has publicly said how important the judeo-Christian underpinnings of our British laws are. So go away and stop throwing vile and untrue abuse.

    • The Explorer

      Can’t you go over it?

    • CliveM

      For future reference, can you define “extreme right wing” for me? Personally I will vote UKIP, some time after the moon turning to cheese, however without misrepresenting their policies, which ones fulfill your definition?

    • Inspector General

      Explain yourself, sir.

    • What do you call extreme far right and anti-Christ? I would say this site is none of those things you say. It deals with most religio-political issues. Try reading more articles then you will get a fuller picture.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Can you back up your comment with some evidence?

      • CliveM

        PI,

        We have all asked him too! We have all been met with the same deafening silence.

        Put simply, he doesn’t have a response that would support his accusation.

  • Merchantman

    I agree with Martin but I didn’t want to crowd the top comment.
    CS Lewis has an interesting view of what the loss of the Gospel and holiness leads to.
    ‘And if a man’s self is not kept clean and bright; his glimpse of God will be blurred like the moon seen through a dirty telescope. That is why horrible nations have horrible religions; they have been looking at God through a dirty lens.’ from Mere Christianity.

  • Inspector General

    The Inspector does like a bit of hyperbole from time to time, even if it is embodied as an image, and nothing else. Not that this whatever deserves that accolade. So what do we make of it then.

    Reviewing the other murals, one does see each has the same line of imbecility running through. The “why can’t the world be as happy as me and my new kitten” attitude that eleven year old girls possess, bless them, before further exposure to (…Scottish…) life necessarily sours those gentle thoughts forever.

    St Johns is lauding the work of a simple fool who’s signed up to Marxism, or at least thinks he has. The question that needs to be answered is why…

  • Inspector General

    It is ironic that the far right in the UK is currently in a state of collapse. UKIP has defused them by representing at least some of the concerns the far right was covering, and thus attracting the latters would be followers and keeping them in the democratic order. That is a good thing, is it not.

    One has always maintained that if career politicians ignore the concerns of the people for long enough, the people will arrange for their own politicians who will address them instead. That is what UKIP seems to be largely about. It’s how the Labour party came about too. The Labour party (…whatever you might say about the spendthrift champagne socialists who’ve never done a proper days work in their lives who run the thing now…), has been immensely successful. And its success came despite the hideous Russian revolution being promised here by the likes of Tories and Liberals at the time.

    Stop UKIP ? No – it cannot be done now. Cameron could have done it a year or two back, but no. His pet project turned out to be quite something else. That’s what you get when you have a Prime Minister completely lacking in nous.

    • CliveM

      I’ve upvoted your first paragraph!

      • Inspector General

        Have you really…
        Well done you !

  • Politically__Incorrect

    “We really wanted to make people engage and think and reanalyze.”

    Well, I have engaged, thought, and reanalyzed based on what the rector has said.
    My conclusion, as the French would say; he is a bit of an “Ouànquère”

  • CliveM

    Their is some painful barrel scraping going in in the attempt to portray Farage as a latter day Hitler!

    Firstly Hitler was a rabid anti Semite who didn’t try to hide it. He was jailed for an attempted coup early in his career. He had a paramilitary branch that used violence and physical intimidation to further their political ends. Opponents were murdered. All of which pre dated his winning of power.

    Thing got a lot worse after that.

    Now if anyone can supply information on UKIP or Farage doing similar, do so. Otherwise stop insulting the memories of those murdered by Hitler and start engaging in a rational debate instead.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      One wonders what some of these people were doing in their history lessons. Clearly, they were not being taught to analyse the facts and reach rational conclusions. it’s a good example of how political correctness shuts down the intellect by killing off debate and objective analysis.

      • CliveM

        To understand that you have to understand the lefts view of the role of history. It is there to underpin a certain view of society and how it has developed. Where it doesn’t do that, it is to be ignored or amended.

        What we are witnessing in this argument is a tactic similar to Soviet airbrushing of undesirables from photos.

      • What history lessons? You do know that State Education was captured years ago during the ‘long march through the institutions’.

        Most of what they learn in history these days is the Marxist version. Workers struggle, the evils of the British Empire, anti slavery, emancipation of women, how evil ‘right wingers’ are (except that of course Hitler was a Statist who nationalized everything i.e. a left winger) and how the church prevented science from progressing for centuries until the ‘Enlightenment’.

        Brainwash ’em young, teach them ‘approved’ versions of words. Orwell was right about ‘he who controls the past controls the present.’

    • dannybhoy

      Hitler used German Jews as the reason for Germany’s failure. There were assimilated German Jews who had served in the First World War, built lives and careers and businesses for themselves in Germany, and regarded themselves as more German than Jewish. (shades of the situation in Roman controlled Palestine).
      Hitler had them earmarked as the scapegoat for Germany’s ills and he and his minions had to accept the responsibility for the most wicked attempt at extermination of an innocent people ever.

      • CliveM

        Yes I know! :0)

    • IanCad

      Farage gets no support from me but you sure deserve the uptick.

      • CliveM

        He doesn’t get my vote either. However some of the comments suggest some people maybe suffering from clinical paranoia!

  • David

    It has always amazed me that many Christians simply fail to see that hardline Socialism is antithetical to Christianity. Socialism seeks to concentrate all power in the state. It wants each individual to become a creature, not of their family or tribe or faith, but of and for the state. Therefore it undermines the family, and all the things that can provide counter balances to the power of the central state, such as privately owned businesses, even small ones. The EU is based on Humanism, and has a pedigree stemming from the French Revolution. Hence the EU’s very constitution denies that Europe is defined by its Christian heritage, if not widespread contemporary religious faith. The EU is at present a growing soft tyranny, which could easily morph into a hard tyranny. I see little commonality between the EU and Christianity.

    • dannybhoy

      “It has always amazed me that many Christians simply fail to see that hardline Socialism is antithetical to Christianity. ”
      Clive and I had weurked that out at least 38 minutes ago…

      • CliveM

        As long as you realise I would only endorse that as long as it’s limited to ‘hard line socialism’!

        • dannybhoy

          🙂

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            You have a cheeky smile…

          • dannybhoy

            (Bashfully)
            My wife says it’s one of my most endearing features..

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Why Clive, does that mean you are a devotee of ‘soft socialism’?

          • CliveM

            No!

            Not a socialist at all.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Oh thank goodness for that! For a moment I was worried and about to send you one of my tracts entitled ‘Be watchful be vigilant : a Vote for Labour is a vote for Satan.’ Instead I shall dispatch a box of hobnobs and a handkerchief soaked in Lily of the Valley…

          • CliveM

            Why thank you very much. Feeling a bit peckish!

            I will keep the handkerchief as a token forever……

          • CliveM

            Ps send me some of your tracts. I know some people it may help!

  • Shadrach Fire

    Further to His Graces Tweet, we should not ignore his prayer channel.

    • IanCad

      Just saw it Shadrach. Prayers for Ernesty.

  • Join in this prayer of Norman Yardy for one of our most loved commenters:

    “Our most heavenly father, your son Jesus Christ suffered stripes, through which we are healed. I earnestly pray for our fellow commentator E S Blowfeld or Blowers as he is affectionately known. Restore him and keep him in good health in the name of Jesus we pray.”

    Amen.

    • carl jacobs

      What’s up with Blowfeld?

      • Jack doesn’t know. This prayer was posted on the Prayer link.

        • dannybhoy

          Good one Jack.

          Well done.
          “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
          James 5:16 (KJV)
          (In our church there is a sense of grim finality when one is added to the prayer list… 😉 )

          • IanCad

            I’m surprised at that Danny; That is, unless you have to be terminal before you make the list.
            Broken marriages, hearts, the unemployed, the bereaved — it is a long list – pretty much all are on it.

          • dannybhoy

            Well, it’s difficult, because many people here are elderly, and as you know the Cof E is a broad church, so not everyone attends because they believe, but perhaps because they have always attended, or see it as part of their identity.. I can understand that, given the Cof E is the national church.
            So some people in our village have remarked to me that going on that prayer list is like the kiss of death, as no one comes off it…
            More immediately a few of us are trying to encourage visiting the sick and lonely. I find it dehumanising if a church stops bothering about people if they stop attending for whatever reason. If we believe as we do, that God cares for people -individuals- then we as the Body of Christ should too.
            Loneliness and the fear of getting old are horrible.

          • Shadrach Fire

            I once heard of a Vicar who claimed to have a great ministry of praying for the dying. They would always die after his visit.
            My prayer would be that he never visited me.

          • dannybhoy

            Then there’s the old joke about the man with the healing ministry who hired a large hall and invited all those who were ill or infirm to
            “Come and be healed by the power of prayer!”
            The hall soon filled up and after a presentation of the Gospel message, he invited people to come forward for prayer…
            Eventually a man on crutches made his way to the stage followed by another nervous looking man.
            The preacher asked the man with the crutches his name.
            “Fred” said Fred.
            And you sir, what is your need?
            “I have h-had a tttterrible st-st-stutter all mmy life” said George..
            “Right, Fred and George, I want you two to stand behind this curtain whilst I pray for God’s healing touch.”

            The preacher began to pray most earnestly and passionately and at great length.
            Eventually he cried out,
            “Fred, I want you to throw away your crutches!, George, I want you to say the first thing that comes to your mind, NOW!!”
            There was a clatter and great commotion behind the curtain, and George called out….
            “F-F- Fred’s f-f-ffuh fallen over!”

      • Anton

        The cricket commentator known as Blowers is Henry Calthorp Blofeld, not ES Blowfeld which is a clear reference to the James Bond baddie Ernst Stavros Blofeld. I cannot find any mention online that Blowers is unwell but my search was not particularly comprehensive and I join in wishing him a speedy and complete recovery if he is unwell.

        • Shadrach Fire

          E S Blofeld, being the name of the James bond character is also the pseudonym that a longstanding commentator uses.
          He has not been on this Blog for some time and that seems to have been through bad health. I seem to remember that he and Jack have a longstanding relationship of heckling but I have always loved his deep understanding of scripture and his great sense of humor.

          Come back blowers soon, we miss you.

          • “I seem to remember that he and Jack have a longstanding relationship of heckling … “

            But all in the best possible taste, Shadrach. Happy Jack has a deep affection for Ole Blowers and has shared many hilarious moments engaging with him.

          • CliveM

            “I seem to remember that he and Jack have a longstanding relationship of heckling … ”

            Doesn’t really narrow it down!!!!!!

          • Shadrach Fire

            Without breaching any confidences I can’t say anymore but if you can go back 6 to 12 months or if there is a search facility you might find earlier posts.

          • CliveM

            Apologies, I was having a light hearted dig at Jacks expense. Clearly I wasn’t very clear.

            Jack seems to have many similar relationships!

          • None quite like the one he shared and hopes to share again with Ole Blowers.

          • Anton

            Thank you Shadrach, I hadn’t known about the blog commenter (rather than cricket commentator or Bond baddie) of that name.

  • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

    Perhaps St John’s will balance things up with a mural linking Ed Miliband to Karl Marx via Lenin and Stalin? Seems the fairest thing to do, doesn’t it?

    • IanCad

      Only you Mrs Proudie; only you!

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Dear Ian, how kind…

  • len

    I suppose if one took anything from this mural at St John’s it is the warning that comes through history.
    Recently watching a documentary on Europe in the 1930`s and the rise of the Nazi Party I wondered exactly how many people saw what was to come?.
    Hitler was seen as someone who was going to restore Germany back to the position it had been prior to the war, Hitler was seen as a saviour (of sorts)Much of this can be seen in retrospect?.
    A man will come in the not too distant future who will be’ seen’ as a saviour but will be a false’ messiah’ come to right all the wrongs in the World (particularly in the middle east)but will have an ulterior motive(much as Hitler had) which was to lead the world into war. So we should be vigilant and discerning.

    • dannybhoy

      Len,
      “When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.”
      Matthew 9:36 (ESVUK)

      Here’s one of the fascinating aspects of human society and free will. Society is constructed on the concept of family units bound together by a common belief/value system and playing their part as cogs in a greater society which offers more freedoms, benefits, opportunities and protections. All organised and maintained by a central hierarchy responsible to an electorate.

      Yet when a ‘cancer’ in the form of an extremist group arises in that society as for example the National Socialist German Workers’ Party: society is dependent on the hierarchy to deal with it, and the reality is that the desire to protect one’s own family and survive takes precedence over any moral impulse to confront and deal with the threat.

      Personally I cannot blame ordinary Germans for the success of the Nazi Party, and I think should such a threat arise in the UK for example, exactly the same thing would happen. Only those with strong moral or religious values would stand up against an organism willing to use torture or death in order to impose its will on the majority.
      The same principle will apply when ‘that man’ appears…

    • Anton

      Len,

      Just as Hitler came between World Wars 1 and 2, so will the Man of Sin come before World Wars 3 and 4, to put an end to the chaos following WW3 – but will start WW4, and THAT one is described in scripture. Shudder at the magnitude of wars of which WW1&2 are just a minor fulfilment!

      • CliveM

        Pardon?

  • Inspector General

    Blowers was rather aged. One fears he has attained his destiny. No more pain, old fellow. Keep a place at the table for us, won’t you…

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      Goodness Inspector. do you mean to say poor Blowers has passed away? How terribly sad. I shall pray for him.

      • Dominic Stockford

        If he has its a bit late to pray for him, he is,(or is not) with God now, and prayer won’t change that.

        “It is a far, far better rest I go to than I have ever known…”

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Well, as John Donne once said, ‘No man is an island…’ One prays for the departed and their families, the ones left behind…but it seems from the above that Blowers is still with us, though poorly. I shall therefore pray he gets well soon.

      • Shadrach Fire

        Help? How Chinese whispers can wreak devastation. For the last time, as far as I know in the last few days, he was able to access his emails. He has just been very poorly. Please pray for him.

        • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

          Of course I will, and thank you for clarifying matters – I hope he gets well soon

        • Uncle Brian

          Shadrach, does this mean you are in regular contact with Blofeld by email? If so, would you kindly pass on my best wishes and also, if possible, give us an update from time to time?
          Thanks
          Brian

    • IanCad

      Can’t be that old – he got a job a while back. A government place at that if I understood right.
      I most sincerely hope that you are wrong.
      Prayers for that not so old boy.

    • Uncle Brian

      Inspector, what’s all this about Blowers “was”? Can we please have a clarification?

    • Shadrach Fire

      Inspector, you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. I reported that he has been very poorly, not gone home.

  • Inspector General

    Chaps. Old Blowers had cancer. And the winter is not kind. One had the flu himself back in November; it was bad enough despite being fully fit. If our man is still with us in this life, may he find the energy to assure us all…

  • Sophia Leiper

    No need for st johns to criticise or equate the snp with nazis dictators etc. Your main stream media and labour (‘blood and soil’ ‘Salmond like Kim Jong Il’ Alistair Darling)/Tory (Telegraph yes campaigners like date rapists) / ukip politicians do that regularly. Get over yourself. The ukip agenda is hideously underpinned by closet racism. The snp want control of immigration because Scotland needs more people and doesn’t like the playing of people’s hardship to scapegoat the most vulnerable. St Johns poses a valid question. Thank God for that.

    • Inspector General

      in America, so one understands, you are not a racist unless you sign up for membership with the KKK or some other usually white supremist

      • dannybhoy

        You’re in a very philosophical mood Inspector, almost melancholic..

        • Inspector General

          You might like tonight’s offering to those who climb the anus tree…

          Inspector General • 39 minutes ago

          You have to hand it to the rotters. It was a damn slick operation, what !

          That’s Charlie Hebdo dead then. What an amazing stroke of luck for the Mohameds, eh? The whole crowd in at an editorial meeting! Then again, perhaps the secretary would inform all who rang on Wednesday mornings “You can’t talk to anybody on Wednesday mornings. That’s when they have their meeting”. Yes, that’s probably it, the ever helpful secretary did for them. (PN, do take note!)

          Interestingly, these now deceased left wing Smart Alecs would have years ago welcomed Islamic immigration into France because that is what socialists do. So what’s the betting that some if not all of the gunmen were suckled at France’s breast ? (Was going to say Marianne’s breast but that would have been lost on nearly all of you…)

          • dannybhoy

            I’m very concerned for Linus…

          • Inspector General

            You don’t think that…

          • dannybhoy

            No…
            not that.
            But I would like an abusive comment from him soon.
            Just to know he’s okay…

      • Maxine Schell

        Oh, no…in America (USA) one is often branded a racist if you are a Constitutionalist, or favor the Tea Party agenda (really the same…limited government), lower taxes, or oppose waste in government or Obama.
        Or to say a stupid way to protest is burning your neighbor’s business.

    • William Lewis

      “The ukip agenda is hideously underpinned by closet racism.”

      Not so. The UKIP agenda is underpinned by the social, cultural and financial stresses and strains introduced by unmandated policies that encouraged mass immigration into this country on an unprecedented scale and by our current inability to ameliorate the situation due to our EU membership. Your accusation of closet racism is facile hate-mongering.

    • dannybhoy

      UKIP is the voice for many who are tired of the Westminster Coterie comprising Conservatives, Lib Dems and Labour. There is no real representation for the ordinary voter through their constituency MPs, because the MP is in thrall to the Party. The Electorate is told,
      “If you don’t like the government of the day, vote them out!”
      But the reality is that the Electorate has a three party menu to choose from, and they’re all serving up their own version of the same stew!
      That’s why people are disaffected, that’s why they don’t vote.
      UKIP has given ordinary decent people a voice, and that’s why people are listening.
      Yes, there may well be some racists in the party, and we who are members have to ensure that the leadership are expected to show them the door marked “Exit.”
      UKIP is a very young party that is slowly maturing and attracting serious and sensible professionals as well as old’ns like myself. There are lots of gaps, lots of fuzzy or incomplete policies, but to my mind UKIP currently offers the only political hope of breaking up the cynical and self serving system we are currently burdened with.
      http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

      • ukfred

        AS a Conservative activist in the Stechford bye-election in 1977, there was a real fear that the National Front candidate might win, given the level of support he had and the assumption that most of this support had come from Conservatives. It turned out that of those voting National Front in that election 80% had previously only ever voted for the Labour Party. Remind me again where the closet racists are?

        • dannybhoy

          If you ignore a problem, even a potential problem, it won’t go away. It quietly grows and spreads. Politically I am by natural inclination a Conservative and was a party member, and like you an activist…
          As a Christian I take on board all criticisms of my faith and political values. A man who refuses to face the truth is living a lie, and a man who values integrity and honour accepts that there is always a price to be paid. Whether loneliness, rejection, ostracism or even persecution.
          Those who think we human beings can be one big inclusive happy family are deluding themselves, and tend to be the gateway through which intolerance and oppression eventually enter in..
          When God wanted to speak to His people Israel He chose an individual as His prophet, not a committee.

  • ukfred

    This comes back to basic theology. If Yeshua’s sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for all, then that must include the worst of the worst, such as Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin, Mao Xe Dung, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Un etc. There are none who cannot be saved if the call upon Yeshua as saviour. To classify anyone in politics, as opposed to their views, as beyond the pale, is on a par with the iniquitous campaign to prevent Ched Atkins returning to his chosen career after serving his sentence.

    • dannybhoy

      True Fred, but like Pharoah, the more power you wield the more responsibility you bear, and the less likely you are to admit to being wrong!