pope francis - mic 2a
Islam

Pope Francis is in denial: our struggle is religious, and it's against virulent Islamism

 

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,” said Pope Benedict XVI in 2006, in what became known as the Regensburg Lecture. It didn’t matter that he was quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor: the indignation was global. Politicians, religious leaders, journalists and scholars were united in their condemnation. Muslims rioted, churches were bombed, crosses were destroyed, effigies of Pope Benedict were burned, and a nun was killed. The fact that there is a certain epistemic tension between the quranic assertion that there is no compulsion in religion, and that Mohammed spread Islam through violence and forced conversion, got lost in the fray.

A certain Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, reportedly expressed his “unhappiness” with Pope Benedict XVI’s use of the quotation. “Pope Benedict’s statement(s) don’t reflect my own opinions,” he said. “These statements will serve to destroy in 20 seconds the careful construction of a relationship with Islam that Pope John Paul II built over the last twenty years.”

Fast-forward 10 years: Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio is now Pope Francis, and he is so concerned to construct a “relationship with Islam” that he denies a crucial reality: “We must not be afraid to say the truth,” he told reporters and journalists on his plane as he flew from Rome to Krakow. And his truth was steeped in a certain irony: “The world is at war because it has lost peace. When I speak of war I speak of wars over interests, money, resources, not religion. All religions want peace, it’s the others who want war.”

Other accounts render it: “I am not speaking of a war of religions. Religions don’t want war. The others want war.” Whatever the translation variables, the assertion is unequivocal. For Pope Francis, the world is at war, but it is not a war of religion.

We must not be afraid to say the truth… The Pope of Rome doth err (as, incidentally, did the previous Pope of Alexandria in his response to Regensburg, namely that “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ”). Has Pope Francis not heard of that strain of Islam which most definitely agitates for war? Is he not familiar with the writings of Muhammed ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of that very conservative cult Wahhabism, sometimes called Salafism? Is this not a particularly virulent reformist strain of Islam? Is it not a distinctly religious pursuit, which transcends the Saudi Arabian desert and calls the Ummah to global Jihad? How is this mania not religious? In what sense are “the others who want war” not true believers in the divine vision that Allah’s sun will rise over the West?

Wahhabism may be a little severe for many Muslims, but it is most definitely a corpus of Islamic doctrines, and it is undeniably a religion. When its disciples (who call themselves Muslims) encounter the fruits of the European Enlightenment and the heirs to the French Revolution, the clash is religious: women must wear the veil to show modesty and piety; the men must be vigorous in cleansing the land of infidels, including elderly priests as the celebrate Mass. Every action and attitude must conform to the application of the Sharia, as interpreted and determined by bearded men armed with cudgels. If you watch football, sing a song, or don’t pray five times a day, prepare to meet your maker. If you have the misfortune to be raped, you’ll be flogged, hanged, stoned or beheaded. If you’re gay, you’ll be hurled off a tall building. If you steal a loaf of bread, you’ll lose a hand or foot in the public square.

These macabre spectacles are Allah’s injunctions: they are what Mohammed himself would want. There is no room for protest: no conscience may be pricked with revulsion. That way lies heresy. Wahhabi Islam – Saudi Salafism – seeks robust solutions to the ills and woes of contemporary society, and its method is the literal implementation of the most abhorrent words in the cruelest sections of a sacred text. We are concerned with the validity of the revelation of the Qur’an and with the sacrosanct prophethood of Mohammed and his paradigmatic sayings as recorded in the Hadith. And so our subject is Islam.

Since Wahhabists invoke Mohammed’s attitudes and actions to justify their extreme acts of hatred against infidels and the vilest denunciations of apostates, it is wrong and dangerous of Pope Francis to say that those we now call Islamists are not concerned with religion. Their fanaticism is inspired by the jihad of their prophet: they are in a state of perpetual war against unbelief, and so the unbeliever must be put to the sword. Yes, Pope Francis is absolutely right that their motives are mingled with “interests, money, resources”; the ancient Bedouin tribes had to stave off starvation somehow, so land and lucre were wrapped up in their zealotry. But Saudi-Salafists believe they serve Allah: their prophet is a pearl of great price; their jihad is holy; their brotherhood a rigorous community of religious austerity dedicated to the reform of Islam.

It helps no-one and solves nothing to pretend that Islamist belligerence is merely political and material. If Christian religious leaders refuse to grapple with the acutely religious inspiration for the systematic murder of Jews, Christians, apostate Muslims and polytheists, and their complete eradication from the Middle East, we will wake up one day to find ourselves Islamised by the retrograde voices of unbridled indoctrination, with Wahhabists dancing over the tombstones of liberal democracy, and an unimaginable Mecca established in our midst.

  • Mike Stallard

    OK I agree. Salafism is wrong and, yes, it is religious too based on the behaviour and life of the early Muslims.
    Islam is, however, bigger than that. There are a lot of Muslims and I have them in my own close family too. Personally, having looked round, I have selected the Catholic Church as my spiritual home. But I am acquainted with Saudi (my daughter lived there) and the UAE. Islam, as I know, did a lot of good, too, in West Africa.
    Like us Catholics – we had the IRA – Islam is a vast religion.
    I look at Islam as a whole like this: living here in UK. Mostly cloudy skies with the occasional thunderstorm and lots of rain, but the light of heaven does break through and there are – yes – lovely sunny days as well.
    Wahabis are not all of Islam! There are others too.

    • fartel engelbert

      The IRA was NEVER a catholic organisation. Its leaders went to mass from time to time to delude the masses that they were but in truth they were atheists and communists. Any one who ever read An Phoblacht (the official newspaper of Sinn-Fein IRA) would know that. Look at the actions of Sinn Fein now. They are extreme left. On the same wing as Corbyn. The IRA struggle was a leftist nationalist anti-colonialist one that was never defined by religion.

      • sarky

        So can you say that isis is not a Muslim organisation?? The evidence is that it’s made up of paid foreign fighters out to grab what they can.

      • steroflex

        I went to a Mosque in Peterborough last week for a chat. The imam was just as shocked and disgusted by the terrorism as I was.
        But to justify themselves, the terrorists in both IRA and the Salafi too use religious tags.

      • James60498 .

        Sinn Fein (the polite name for the IRA) is the most pro-abortion party in NI and is constantly pushing the case for “gay marriage”

        In no way can this possibly be described as Catholic.

        The Catholics (historically Irish) that voted for them are voting for a united Ireland as opposed to the Protestants (mainly descendants of immigrants from Britain) who want to remain part of the U.K.

        • Old Nick

          Protestants – mostly (Presbyterian) descendants of immigrants from Scotland. The Ulster problem is a Scotch problem, not an English one.

          • James60498 .

            Yes. Hence of course the kilt, so popular amongst the unionist elite.

            And yet of course strangely many of the Irish nationalists don’t see that and prefer to hate (or at least dislike) the English.

          • Old Nick

            A province which produces more history than can be consumed locally.

    • Anton

      The Middle East is heading towards a huge Sunni-Shia war some way ahead, ISIS vs Iran. It is difficult not to consider that an implosion of Islam would be no bad thing, but the bloodshed would be terrible. Pray that many be converted.

    • bluedog

      You seem to accept that Wahhabism is bad Islam. Are you able to tell us what constitutes good Islam, how it is differentiated from Wahhabism and what it calls itself?

    • Dominic Stockford

      All Islam (no matter what its ‘type’) depends on the Koran. And the Koran is always the same Koran. Thus there is no way to hide from the reality that Islam of whatever ilk is dangerous, and will always oppose Christianity.

  • The Meissen Bison

    The problem, always, with modernisers is their capacity for making mischief unintentionally and overlooking the second order consequences of their “improvements”.

  • Dreadnaught

    Bang on the nail Cranny.
    Little else of relevance to be said except for that apologists who no doubt will claim that he’s the ‘wrong kind of Pope’ or its the wrong kind of understanding of catholicism.

    • Put it this way: John-Paul was saintly, and Benedict was/is intelligent. This time the Catholic Church decided to try something different.

      • Cressida de Nova

        Goodness, I hope it has nothing to do with tango Masses !

  • The Explorer

    There is no compulsion in religion, and the Qur’an says Muslims must not be aggressors.

    So if non-Muslims become Muslims or accept dhimmi status peacefully, that’s great. That’s how it should be. But if they resist becoming Muslims or dhimmis, then that’s aggressive. Therefore, you are entitled to wage war on them until all is for Allah.

    All hunky dory, but I see a problem here. People would not need to resist if they had not been subjected to pressure. So, arguably, the Muslims have started it after all. Non-Muslim aggression can be simply a response to prior Muslim aggression.

    Islam’s full of such sleights of hand: especially when it proclaims itself as the original religion that preceded Judaism and Christianity.

    • Ivan M

      It is one vast schizophrenic tract. Be good, be bad. Be kind, be cruel. Be chaste, while the lustful are satisfied in heaven. The best brief description I’ve read is that the Koran is that way since Islam is a totally man made fabrication, to serve the exigencies of Arab imperialism. And it has been very effective in that role.

  • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

    Exactly, Your Grace…but popes have been in error for many a long year, as I believe you once said before consumed by the flames…

    • Anton

      Your turn tomorrow, following your column?

  • len

    Pope Francis either doesn`t know the truth or is afraid to speak it. Either option is appalling for a religious leader.

    • Anton

      I am beginning to wonder whether Benedict was “prevailed upon” to resign by persons who knew that Francis, the runner-up in the 2005 conclave, would get the job and begin promoting secular views, as against Catholic tradition. This is not a new conspiracy theory; the question would be: what information did insiders have on Benedict that wasn’t already in the public domain in 2013? Claims of a gay (and blackmailable) mafia inside the Roman curia might be true but are hardly reason for a papal resignation unprecedented in the modern era.

      • len

        Pope Francis does seem to be going down the ‘all inclusive multi faith path’ the goal being a ‘one world religion’ .
        ‘Unity ‘is the aim of the apostate church, at any price so it seems?

      • len

        Pope Francis is going down ‘the multi faith one world religion ‘path which seems to be the way the RCC and many Protestant churches are heading. ‘ Unity’ at any price so it seems? . This is the prophesied ‘Great Apostasy’ which has fallen on the Church without a shred of doubt.

        • Dominic Stockford

          His declaration that muslims are ‘fellow-believers’ was rather a give-away as to the direction he intends to travel.

          • Anton

            His statement is without meaning until he specifies what they are fellow-believers in. They are fellow believers in a single omnipotent Creator God. But not in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Over that there must be no compromise.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            From the Oxford English Dictionary:

            humanitarian (noun)

            1. Theological
            A person believing that Christ’s nature was human only and not divine. Now rare. (first quote ca. 1792)

            2. Chiefly with capital initial. A person who professes a humanistic religion, esp. an adherent of the socialist religious ideas of Pierre Leroux (1797–1871) (first quote 1831)

            3. A person concerned with human welfare as a primary or pre-eminent good; esp. a person who seeks to promote human welfare and advocates action on this basis rather than for pragmatic or strategic reasons; a philanthropist. Chiefly depreciative in early use, with the implication of excessive sentimentality. (first quote 1843)

            I was first made aware of (1) while reading History in English Words by Owen Barfield.

          • Uncle Brian

            And I was made aware if it just this moment, by you. Thank you for that.

          • Uncle Brian

            Has Francis referred to Muslims as “fellow-believers”? It wouldn’t surprise me, but the term doesn’t appear in the official transcript of yesterday’s statement on board the flight to Krakow.

            http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2016/july/documents/papa-francesco_20160727_polonia-volo-andata.html

          • Dominic Stockford

            He called them this in a document put out some time ago by the Vatican – the whole tenor was the normal interfaith leaning guff you expect from Churches Together about the alleged ‘Abrahamic religions’.

            I will pop in from time to time – but maybe avoid some discussions where my Protestantism is just too much for others!

          • Uncle Brian

            Thank you Dominic. On another website I got called all kinds of names for stating what seems to me the plain truth, that Islam is not an “Abrahamic religion” in any meaningful sense. If that expression means anything at all, there are only two of them, not three. Abraham was the first Jew and Christianity began as an offshoot of Judaism, but there was no such historical connection in the case of Mohammed and the beginnings of Islam.

  • Anton

    I have been imagining it for some time, Your Grace, and consider it impending judgement for the factor-of-ten explosion in divorce, single-parent families and conceptions outside marriage since the war, and for abortion. If so, then taking robust action against Islam inside Europe without addressing family breakdown is worse than useless; Islam is just the vector of judgement by the triune God. (Granted that many Muslims prefer to live in peace, but revolutions are led by the hotheads, and even the rest understand that there is booty to be had.) Yet government policy is to hammer the family – in the classroom, by granting unmarried couples the same legal privileges as married couples, and by many financial disincentives to the married and incentives to the unmarried. I consider that this situation is not changeable by the ballot box and that only a financial collapse could cause people to begin taking responsibility for themselves again. The prospect for our land is dark, but the prospect for the church is bright as ever – provided that people do not heed the foolish words of blind men in positions of church leadership.

    • steroflex

      You touch on an important point here. Loads of all kinds of sex. But no families and no children!
      No children = vacuum.
      Vacuum is partly filled by Muslims whose discipline – and polygamy too – leads to a new kind of productive family and future troubles.

      • Anton

        The aborted are replaced by Muslims who are set to bring judgement. God knows exactly what he is doing.

    • I strongly believe that the scourge of Islam is God’s judgment on the nations that turn away from God. This was true in the Middle East, and now it seems to be the turn of the West. I recall George Bush’s speech that the Islamic extremists attack the West ‘because they hate our freedoms…’ and thinking how wrong he was.

      “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!”
      (Isaiah 5:20 ESV)

      If Europe does not repent of its immoral laws, then Islam might even be God’s instrument for rescuing the post-Christian society from itself. The minds of innocent children are now being corrupted by all forms of evil, flaunted everywhere. Many Muslims are probably no different behind closed doors, but at least such things are called evil and not good in their societies; and this is an important distinction, which many modern secularists would like to blur.

      I am still hopeful that God will answer our prayers and send a revival.

  • Uncle Brian

    It helps no-one and solves nothing to pretend that Islamist belligerence is merely political and material.
    Exactly so, Your Grace. In a nutshell.

  • john in cheshire

    The current Pope is a Jesuit and thus not a Christian. No Christians should believe a word he says.

    • bluedog

      Cr*p.

    • Apparently the Society of Jesus won’t be destroyed by fire and brimstone if 10 virtuous Jesuits can be found. This will not be easy.

      • Cressida de Nova

        LOL

  • Anton

    Islam should be reclassified as a political movement, which is easily provable from its scriptures.

  • Martin

    Of course Rome also killed those that denied its authority, just as the Muslim warriors do. And of course we have seen honour killings among our citizens. The problem is that true Christianity is at war, but its weapons are spiritual weapons. Christians don’t kill, but bring life through the Spirit.

    There is a case to be made that many Muslims merely want a quiet life, they don’t want to kill their neighbours, but they are sinners in need of a Saviour.

    • “Of course Rome also killed those that denied its authority, just as the Muslim warriors do.”
      Christian States have done so …. not just Catholic ones.

      • Martin

        HJ

        I’d deny there were any Christian states.

        • Oliver Cromwell was not Christian? Or Calvin? Or Queen Elizabeth I?

          • Martin

            HJ

            The first two were Christians, but none are states.

          • Both killed in the name of Christ.

          • Martin

            HJ

            That has relevance why? Incidentally I’m not aware of anyone John Calvin killed, Oliver Cromwell, however, was a soldier, as was King David.

          • Calvin, based on Mosaic Law, introduced statutes for the execution of heretics and adulterers. At Geneva, under his leadership, they tortured men, women and children and threw adulterous women into the Rhone. There were children publicly scourged, and hung, for calling their mother
            she-devil and thief.
            Cromwell a soldier? Sure.

          • Martin

            HJ

            Sounds like you’ve been reading RC books again.

          • No, it was a Protestant source. You should research the man. Quite a disturbing experience. The Puritans and Calvinists make one’s blood run cold.

          • Martin

            HJ

            There are plenty of ‘Protestants’ who hate Calvin too. Remember, Calvin wasn’t in charge of the laws nor did he pass judgement.

          • No, he just wrote the statutes and actively oversaw and encouraged their enactment.

          • Martin

            HJ

            I have to wonder at your source.

  • ‘When I speak of war I speak of wars over interests, money, resources, not religion. All religions want peace’—Pope Francis

    ‘Make war on them [the unbelievers] until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.’—Qur’an 8:39

    The Pope is correct to say that Islam wants peace but he overlooks the fact that Islam condones the use of violence as a means of progressing towards a peaceful world. The hostile nature of Islam (and this is plain straightforward Islam we’re talking about, not some extreme Islamist variety) is well illustrated by this list of verses from the Qur’an containing the Arabic root qtl, from which are formed words concerned with killing.

    • Anton

      Yes. That list shows they can’t in truth say that “fight” in their scriptures means spiritual battle.

      As for whether the House of Islam really is peaceful, Sunni and Shia have been fighting since within living memory of Muhammad.

      • steroflex

        We Christians of course have nothing in our Bible about fighting. We are peaceful after all and we never indulge in any kind of fighting or bullying because we are Good.

        • Old Nick

          How many razzias did Jesus lead ?

        • Anton

          Where Christians do that it is against the New Testament. What about a Muslim who is obedient to the quran?

        • mollysdad

          Actually, we do. Twenty mitzvot in the OT are about warfare, and soldiering is lawful for a Christian.

  • chefofsinners

    Pope Francis’ loving attempts to fight error with error are disastrously misguided. Perhaps based on his belief that he can dispense grace.
    Christians are commanded to love and forgive one another. We are called to love Muslims by showing them their sin and God’s love. Even if some of them murder us between the temple and the altar.
    What better time to evangelise mainstream moderate Muslims?

    • len

      Muslims are beginning to turn to Christ as they see the barbaric behaviour of those in their former religion

      • steroflex

        This kind of statement needs back-up. Do you have any?

    • Dominic Stockford

      How can it be ‘loving’ to fight error with error? Jesus never did so, and we are both told that he is a perfect example of love, and enjoined to love as he did.

      • chefofsinners

        I think he’s made a misguided attempt to show love to his enemy and to be a peacemaker. His motives are probably pure, but his words are regrettable.

    • steroflex

      I am quite serious about this. Why not make the effort. One thing is for sure – the local Mosque representatives are not going to visit you!
      Just pop down on a pastoral visit and see what happens. You may have to remove your shoes, but I bet you will be welcomed warmly. Muslims have a duty of hospitality.

    • Cressida de Nova

      I don’t like you chances of evangelising Muslims dressed as Marie Antoinette’s Saucier !

  • Ivan M

    Let’s have some perspective here. It was not the RCC that bombed and destroyed Libya. That thought that it was good idea to send Syria tail first into the meatgrinder. The Church was prominently against the Iraq war that everyone now agrees was the incubator of the ISIS. And it was not the Church that handed over Iraq wholesale to the Iranians and made the Syrians their dependency. It was the West and when talking about Christians, the Evangelical morons who signed on to it, but strangely are not prepared to fight it. Leaving it instead to ‘decadent, senescent, immoral’ Europe.

    Francis has built up sufficient merit in his days under the Argentinian junta to answer to God. Whatever he says is not binding anyway on the EU anyway, which once made John Paul II beg to no effect to include some mention of Christianity in its articles.

    • len

      That is not the point in question?.
      Francis seems oblivious to the problem which is .

      • Ivan M

        Why do you care? He is just one talking head among many. Neither Urban II or Pius V. I don’t take him seriously in these matters.

        • len

          Pope Francis as a leader of a substantial religious organisation should have some sort of awareness of the problems affecting his people ? (especially in the light of recent events?).’Playing down’ very real threats does him no credit….

          • Ivan M

            Agreed. But we Catholics are not fooled one way or another.

          • Anton

            How convenient that his absurd comments are not “ex cathedra”. Jesus never bothered saying that some of his words didn’t count.

          • Ivan M

            Francis is not Jesus man.

          • Anton

            Matthew 12:36.

          • Uncle Brian

            Once again, in this instance, the Supreme Pontiff was speaking ex aeroplano.

          • Ivan M

            Or even ex-Guinness Stout.

          • Anton

            Speaking out of his what? I’m sorry but I can’t find that word in my Vulgate.

          • len

            Hot air expeller?

          • Anton

            I’m not a fan.

          • len

            Lol…

          • Ex-off the cuffeo

          • Old Nick

            Ex cathedra aeronautica

        • bluedog

          ‘Why do you care?’ Well, if the leader of the largest Christian denomination is unable to form an accurate assessment of an existential threat to his church, it may not survive.

          • Ivan M

            She will survive. She has survived murderers and adulterers a Popes. This is small beer.

          • len

            Not for those being killed.

          • Ivan M

            You know len, that the Pope is regarded as the Head Crusader by al-Queda, and maybe by Osama bin Laden when he was alive. His words count to the Muslims. It is not the eleventh hour yet, there is still time. Even Hollande has changed his tune. There is still hope for Francis when the Horseman is at the door.

          • len

            I prefer what God thinks about me than what Muslims, atheists of anyone else thinks about me…The Pope obviously thinks differently and want ‘the world ‘ to think well of him

          • Anton

            Please stop conflating the obvious folly of the Iraq war with Francis’ blindness to the nature of quranic Islam.

          • bluedog

            You presume that the Muslims take any notice of what the Pope says. Where is the evidence that they do? Surely any faith leader has to be true to his/her beliefs rather than simply appeasing a hostile local consensus. That’s what product differentiation is all about.

            It seems that the degree of piety in Islam degrades with distance from Mecca. At both extremities, say Morocco and Indonesia, Islam is far more muted and tolerant. After 300 years of Dutch dominion Indonesia has a large Christian minority as you would know, and the Muslim majority shows no sign of throwing them out. If anything, jihad in Indonesia seems to be targeted at the democratically elected and Muslim dominated government. The issue is therefore whether Indonesia will self-radicalise as Turkey seems to be doing. As for Lahore in Pakistan, it’s hard to imagine that the plight of the Christian could possibly get worse. It is always possible that all Muslim majority countries will deport all Christians. But two can play at that game, and probably will. In the view of this communicant, the collapse of the House of Saud as principal propagators of Wahhabism can’t come soon enough, Western commercial interests not withstanding.

          • Anton

            See “Laskar Jihad” for Indonesia.

          • bluedog

            Very interesting, thank you.

          • Ivan M

            I don’t have to presume about the status of the Pope among Muslims. I know. I can read the vernacular at least the Malay language. The position of Pakistani Christians can get worse, a lot worse if the hands of the secular Muslims are tied.

  • Anton

    Merkel stands by her immigration policies:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36912141

    • chefofsinners

      Many a Merkel maks a muckle.

      She is standing idly by, while the people of Europe pay a heavy price

      • Dominic Stockford

        A heavy price for her invitation…

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Fiddling while Cologne burns

        • William Lewis

          Feu de Cologne.

        • Anton

          It also burnt in 1942.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      She probably doesn’t have them living next door to her.

  • CliveM

    A charitable interpretation of his words is that he is concerned that Catholics worldwide don’t become ever more vulnerable in a war of religions and that he was more concerned about them, then with speaking the whole truth.

    As has been said, our governments have shown themselves both unwilling and unable to provide the protection required.

    Unfortunately his words won’t help with this. The war of religion (specifically a certain religion) has already begun. We are being attacked and the motivation underpinning it is faith.

  • Dominic Stockford

    For a Muslim life is merely a part of Islam, for a Christian faith is part of life.

  • knight

    I ask that who ever you are, take a short moment of your time and Pray to Christ, that you call on his name to protect us from this evil that has the world by the throat and choking our freedom.

    I just hope the more people call on Christ’s name in Prayer, hopefully he will listen to our cries of pain. Christ is Lord, our God and our salvation so please pray often like never before

    Matthew 6:9-13 King James Version (KJV)

    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    11 Give us this day our daily bread.
    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    • steroflex

      OK I get the point.
      I have often wondered though if God Himself (who controls the Zeitgeist) will use Salafism to bring back the erring whites who abandoned their faith half a century ago to a renewed interest in their Creator.

      • knight

        God would never use the evil to do his works, that is through man himself and evil he has taken on.

        For one to know the answers one must read R and more times one reads, one understands more, if one asks God to help and there is many interpretations, but they are some bad ones thrown in to mislead.

        There will be many that will turn away from Christianity and it looks very much like to Islam. God will send Prophets to bring back the lost flock.

        This is one of many views on what is to happen and the Gospel preached World Wide
        https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/seven-prophecies-that-must-be-fulfilled-before-jesus-christs-return

        • steroflex

          My rather Hegelian God is very good at bringing good out of evil actually (crucifixion? Miracles? 30 years’ war?)

  • PessimisticPurple

    In fairness (and I’m not a Francis fan) he was probably trying to respond in a way that wouldn’t get Christians murdered, in much the same way as Pius XII tried to deal with that other great death cult, the Nazis. But unlike Pius, Francis can’t rely on an allied army to take on this evil, so he does what he can. I don’t think the C of E has too many of its members hugely vulnerable to Muslim reprisal, so it can afford to be sanctimonious.

    • CliveM

      Oh I didn’t realise that the CofE was being sanctimonious about this. Please supply a link evidencing it.

  • Uncle Brian

    Meanwhile, back on the battlefield, a U.S.-backed militia group has captured a massive haul of documents and digital data which officials hope will help prevent French and other European nationals, now fighting with the Islamic State, from slipping back unobserved into their home countries.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/world/middleeast/us-intelligence-isis.html

  • These are the personal opinions of the Pontiff and they lack credibility. Francis is a materialist who sees the world as a struggle between the “haves” and the “have nots”. Between the rich and the poor. To his mind, all the world’s ills come from a lack of social justice and exploitation.

    As Mundabor says: “It is OK to boo the Pope, and the time to do it is now.”

    • chefofsinners

      Welcome to the Protestant faith, Jack. You’ll like it here.

      • mollysdad

        The problem with the Protestant faith is that it disavows the crusading tradition.

        • Hmm … Oliver Cromwell embraced it, except he went after Catholics.

        • William Lewis

          Not a problem from where I’m sitting.

          • mollysdad

            How do you propose to defeat Islam? Wave palm brances at the while singing “kumbayah”?

          • chefofsinners

            Satan is already defeated.

          • The Explorer

            “But woe to you, Earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, knowing that his time is short.” Down, but not yet out.

          • chefofsinners

            “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.”

          • The Explorer

            You don’t have to be Manichaean to believe that Satan is still formidable, and will remain so until consigned to the Lake of Fire.

          • William Lewis

            Proclaim the gospel. Let God decide.

        • Anton

          As a matching response to several centuries of Islamic aggression against Europe once its West had emerged from the Dark Ages, the Crusades are a routine episode in the history of the rise and fall of empires. But Pope Urban II was wrong to amplify Byzantium’s call for help from the West, made in the aftermath of Byzantium’s loss to the Turks at the Battle of Manzikert, into a cry for Christian holy war. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world.

          • Old Nick

            And Innocent III was even more wrong to stoke up the Fourth Crusade.

          • Anton

            Pope Guilty III.

      • As Peter said to Christ: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” Jack is and will always remain, Catholic.

        • chefofsinners

          Anyone would think Christ said it to Peter.

          • Jesus is a Catholic. He was never a Jew. This is just Zionist propaganda.

          • Anton

            Only Chief could come up with a comment that good.

      • Cressida de Nova

        I must congratulate you COF on your fetching new avatar. Obviously intended to drive the females of the Protestant species wild with desire!

        • Honey trap for …… Linus.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Bad Jack ! COS may be theologically askew but his primal urges are in tact.

          • He may swing both ways, Cressida. He’s a Proddie. One never knows.

          • The Explorer

            Have we finally got a Linus-free zone? Testing, testing.

          • Anton

            4. Having made an ass of himself here over calling Brexit wrong, and having made a bigger one by saying there was nothing to worry about in France regarding immigration, he is keeping quiet so as not to have the errors of his ways pointed out to him in public. Or just possibly he is feeling the secular fear at recent events, and having a deep ponder.

          • CliveM

            Wonder if he’s recently been to Nice.

          • The Explorer

            That thought had crossed my mind. That would have been a supreme irony, after all the insistence that French Islamic immigration was not a threat, integration an inevitability etc.

          • CliveM

            Either that or he hiding in a cellar!

          • Anton

            Cheese eating…

          • Eustace

            You think I would have been anywhere near the promenade des Anglais in July? Or at any other time, come to that?

            Nice is where Russian oligarchs and people who live in Cergy-Pontoise go on holiday. At first the mix might seem odd, but it makes sense. Blunt-featured and tattooed Russian gangsters and their diamond-encrusted WAGs have to parade in front of someone who’ll envy them. And envy is the defining characteristic of Cergy-Pontoise.

            Cergy-Pontoise is where most of those who work in La Défense live. Only the drones, of course. The bosses all live in Paris.

            Cergy-Pontoise is “aspirational”, which is just another way of saying covetous. It wants the same sparkly Rolexes and Maseratis and surgically enhanced features it sees in the glossy pages of its Bible, otherwise known as Closer magazine. Only it doesn’t have the income to match its desires. It has to settle for Apple Watches and mid-range Renaults and sagging skin slathered in the latest totally ineffective 50€ miracle hydrating cream. When judged against any objective criteria, Cergy-Pontoise clearly has enough. But enough is not sufficient. Cergy-Pontoise wants more.

            No, Cergy-Pontoise isn’t poor, but it isn’t rich either. And two weeks at an Ibis or a Kyriad in Nice dispose of pretty much all its discretionary income. Any hope of blowing thousands on the luxuries it sees in the shop windows of the various bling emporiums that infest the city centre is in vain. Cergy-Pontoise therefore feels deprived. Poor Cergy-Pontoise! How can anyone be expected to live without matching his’n’hers rose gold and diamond-set Jaeger-Le Coultre timepieces? It just isn’t fair!

            This is why Cergy-Pontoise congregates on the promenade des Anglais around the Negresco and other temples of bling. It’s there to gawp at the spectacle of Russian new money wearing the gaudy baubles it covets and living the lives it aspires to. And this is why it was attacked. When you want to destabilise a religion, it’s much better to take out a few of the faithful rather than the idols they worship. Dead idols make for inspiring martyrs. Dead faithful make for empty churches.

            So no, I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I was not in Nice. I do not worship at that altar. I’m sorry that some do, but as they all live at the end of a suburban train line in a place where I’m never likely to set foot, I can tolerate their existence with relative equanimity. Other inhabitants of other suburbs are less tolerant however, which is the root cause of all the problems we’re currently experiencing. When such people feel they have the right to impose their judgments on others in total defiance of the law, then clearly there is a public order issue that needs to be dealt with.

            Our current government seems incapable of doing so. Whoever governs France after the next election (and it won’t be the FN) will need to act decisively to reestablish the rule of law. This will happen and Christian prognostications of doom and disaster will prove to be just as exaggerated and hysterical as they always are. But that won’t stop you seizing on every piece of bad news as proof that your imaginary god is punishing us for our imaginary sins, will it? Peace and prosperity that are peaceful and prosperous enough to silence Christian Cassandras just don’t exist. There’s always room for despair, gloom, condemnation and damnation, isn’t there?

            What a joyful thing Christianity is! Between all the thou shalt notting and the suffering and the dire warnings of catastrophe and damnation, it’s a wonder you ever find the time to crack a smile. Must be why nuns and priests and Christian bloggers are always so grumpy. And why they revel in death and disaster.

            Even if I did believe in your fictional sky fairy, I can’t say you’re doing a great job of selling the benefits of piety. If I lived in Cergy-Pontoise and was mourning the loss of a loved one in Nice, what do you think might cheer me up? A grim-faced doom merchant of a Christian telling me how my friend or family member was now writhing in eternal agony? Or a sparkly new Rolex?

            I know which I’d choose. The Rolex of course. Not because I want a Rolex. Ew! But they’re quite heavy and when expertly aimed at the nose of a pious Christian in full preaching mode, are quite effective at making them shirt the firk up.

          • The Explorer

            It sounds like you’re back in France. The speculation about Nice wasn’t implausible then. After all, if you have the poor taste to associate with the likes of us on Cranmer then you might equally be on the promenade des Anglais in July. A few generations back, your sort would have been watching the inmates of Bedlam. In you, that spirit prevails and looks for modern equivalents.

          • The Explorer

            Interesting analysis of the motives for the Nice massacre. I’ve seen it explained as psychological imbalance from drug abuse, and of course from the Islamic angle, but yours is the first to give it a class-cultural twist as an anti-chav protest.

            Do you have data for how many of those killed were from Cergy-Pontoise, or do you think you might be projecting your own anti-chav fantasies onto the killer?

          • Eustace

            Cergy-Pontoise is a symbol for an entire class, so whether many or any of the victims came from there is somewhat beside the point.

            Cergy-Pontoise is not populated by chavs. The people who live there generally own their own homes. They’re not “Benefits Street” types, but rather those who are already on the lower to middle rungs of the employment ladder, and who dream of climbing high enough to purchase enough bling to convince themselves, and everyone else, that they’ve “made it”.

            This is exactly the layer of society that Daech wants to destabilize. They attacked it at the Bataclan, where they targeted the young hipster urban version of Cergy-Pontoise. Those who were in that club would, all things being equal and once they’d partnered and started to have children, have moved out of the city to places exactly like Cergy-Pontoise. These are the people who holiday in Nice and who throng the promenade des Anglais to watch municipal fireworks displays. They’re the Indians of French society, without whose consent the Chiefs cannot rule. Daech wants to create a climate of fear among them, to stir them up and create political and social chaos. That’s the aim of these attacks, in my opinion.

          • The Explorer

            Thank you. Certainly plausible. There is, I agree, some variation of opinion as to what constitutes a chav. Some definitions focus on poor and uneducated, but others stress “one who behaves in a brash or vulgar manner and wears ostentatious clothing and jewelry”.

          • chefofsinners

            Good critique of materialism. Is your life any different or do just have another kind of bling?

          • Eustace

            My life is my own to live as I see fit.

            If Cergy-Pontoise finds fulfilment in striving for a bling lifestyle, let it strive. If it succeeds, it’ll find out soon enough that once one passes a certain threshold of wealth, more money doesn’t improve one’s life.

            Of course it’s better to be rich than poor. The well off live longer, happier and more fulfilled lives. They’re better educated, have better physical and mental health, are far less likely to be obese, and have access to a far wider range of opportunities and experiences. But with money comes responsibility, and with responsibility comes stress and worry. I know many a successful businessman drowning in bling whose heart will probably give out well before his underpaid chauffeur or parlourmaid’s does. Money does not relieve you of all the stresses and strains of life. Sometimes it can make them worse.

            In any case, the illusion of finding ultimate fulfillment in riches is something that can only be shattered by personal experience. I can tell Cergy-Pontoise that money can only buy it a certain amount of happiness until I’m blue in the face. It won’t believe me. Only by living the dream will it come to understand that yes, it’s better to live in a beautiful home, and have staff, and eat healthily and have access to a wide range of professional and leisure activities, but that no, none of these wonderful things bring ultimate happiness and fulfillment.

            As most of Cergy-Pontoise will only ever experience a very limited degree of the things it dreams about, it will continue to dream. The unobtainable holds the promise of fulfillment. Isn’t that what drives all religions?

            Cergy-Pontoise sighs after bling. Christians sigh after God. Christians have the advantage in that what they’re sighing after can never be obtained in life, therefore the illusion is complete and can never be shattered. Their dreams are ironclad quite simply because they can never be realised in the here and now. In that way, yes Christianity is a superior religion to materialism. Anything that’s firmly fixed in the realm of the imaginary can never be proven not to be all it’s cracked up to be. Why do you think Christianity persists?

          • chefofsinners

            Thank you for an even better critique of materialism. Christians hunger and thirst for righteousness, a longing which can be fulfilled.
            I still wonder whether you have anything better to offer, or just criticism?

          • Eustace

            Anything is better than the figment of the imagination you call God. Reality, no matter how imperfect, is always better than fantasy. It has to be. It’s real. Fantasy is not.

            I criticise all flight from reality into the false refuge of a fantasy world. Yes, the world is a difficult place, full of injustice and unfairness and pain and sorrow. But it’s the only world we’ve got.

            A pragmatist takes the bad stuff in his stride and tries to concentrate on the good without falling into the trap of dreaming up a fantasy hero god who will make it all better one day. If you won’t take anything less than perfection then you’ll end up doing what so many Christians do: turning your back on the disappointing “world” and losing yourself in your dreams of perfection. It’s a cop-out. A coward’s way out.

            Perfection doesn’t exist outside of human fantasy. The world is as good now as it’s ever going to be. There’s no reason (apart from wishful thinking) to believe that it will ever be any better. Humanists who believe in perfecting humanity through technological and cultural advancement are just as deluded as Christians. We may advance and improve the material quality of our lives to some degree. We may even improve the quality of our interactions with each other through better education. But we’ll always be the aggressive and querulous race that we are. Intense emotion, both positive and negative, is the inheritance of our primate ancestry, so we’ll never make a perfect world of peace and harmony any more than a troop of chimpanzees can live together in sweetness and light and perfect equality. There will always be inequality and hierarchy, anger and frustration, winners and losers, sickness and death. There’ll always be love and desire. And as long as there are, we’ll always fight among ourselves as we jostle for more of what we want.

            This is the reality of human life: winners keepers, losers weepers. If the losers want to flee from their loss into a make-believe world where they can dream about being winners and contemplate with pleasure the revenge their Big Daddy God will take on those who dispossessed them, let them do so. Those who don’t need such a psychological crutch and prefer to face the world head on and accept it for what it is can only pity them.

            I mean, surely the ultimate degradation of defeat must be the reversion to a childish state of fantasy, make-believe and credulity that characterises religion. The self-sustaining circular arguments that support it are the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming “I’M NOT LISTENING!”

          • chefofsinners

            Thank you – that’s completely clear. You’re a materialist, just like the people you criticise.

          • Eustace

            Does it comfort you to pigeonhole your fellow man?

            What a lot of comfort Christians seem to need. Anyone would think you were needy children rather than grown adults.

            If you need to think of me as a materialist, by all means feel free. But think on this: if I’m a materialist, I’m one who takes little comfort and finds scant fulfillment in the material. Which bothers me not one jot. What do comfort and fulfillment even mean? Why would the universe be all about me and what I want?

            This is the point at which most Christians run off in panic. Sad little fulfillment junkies who’ve never contemplated the idea of an existence that doesn’t ultimately end in their apotheosis often freak out at the concept that life may not be all about them, or about the idealised image of themselves they project onto the universe and call “God”.

            The easiest way to avoid the issue is to demonise those who raise it. So bring on the abuse and the put-downs. Every insult hurled my way merely confirms my view of you as frightened fulfillment addicts who can’t face the idea of a universe that doesn’t revolve around you. Your religion is an attempt to codify and justify your narcissistic need to be at the centre of everything. Which I must say I find to be complètement minable, petit et démesurément orgueilleux. The false modesty of men who create God in their own image is contemptible in the extreme.

          • chefofsinners

            I am only pigeonholing you in the same hole wherein you pigeonhole the dead of Nice. It gives me no pleasure. It is you who appears to take pleasure in heaping scorn on their version of materialism, while having nothing better to offer yourself.
            Christianity is in no way narcissistic, because it first requires an admission of an individual’s utter depravity and helplessness. However, it is a message of hope, joy and meaning. Cling to your pride and misery if you wish, but it is your loss. Your bleak and miserable assessment of the universe will be a self-fulfilling vision.

          • Eustace

            Any scorn in my description of the Nice victims was supplied by you. My words were merely descriptive of a certain way of life. I went out of my way not to make any moral judgment at all.

            You read into my words the scorn you felt for such people, and then blamed it on me. And by doing so, revealed your true self to us all. A judgmental and condemnatory Pharisee masquerading as a loving and forgiving Christian.

            You can’t even follow one of the most basic precepts of your own faith! Thou shalt not judge. Why then do you do nothing but?

            That, by the way, IS a moral judgment. And a stinging one too. If this faith you wax so lyrical about is incapable of transforming you, if there’s no discernible difference between your behaviour and that of a non-believer, the claims of Christianity to be a perfecting faith are demonstrated to be false.

            False too are your claims that anyone who won’t buy into the fraud that is your faith must live miserable and bleak lives. When I look around me, it’s clear to me that few Christians are as happy as I have the good fortune to be. Sheer random luck has supplied me with everything I need in life, yet good things do not condition my existence. I love and am loved. I see through the narcissistic self-worship of religion to the hypocrisy and selfishness that drive it. And I accept the doubt and lack of knowledge that life entails without inventing fictional explanations or worshipping totems like some scared tribesman desperate to appease what appear to him in his ignorance to be magical powers and entities.

            All this makes me as happy as an imperfect world lets me be. Wanting anything more is just wishful thinking.What could be more miserable, bleak and productive of unhappiness than the Christian vision of a coercive, vengeful and narcissistic God who’ll blast you to hell unless you grovel at his feet and declare him to be wondrous beyond compare?

            That speech from the Sheikh’s website quoted by the fake archbishop could be the Christian God talking about himself. Or the Christian talking about how he’ll be when his God gives him his well-deserved reward for all his sycophantic love and devotion.

          • chefofsinners

            No scorn? “drones”, “covetous”, “sagging skin”, “I can tolerate their existence with relative equanimity”, “Poor Cergy-Pontoise! How can anyone be expected to live without matching his’n’hers rose gold and diamond-set Jaeger-Le Coultre timepieces? It just isn’t fair!”
            Yes, clearly I am projecting my own scorn into those words.

            As you say, your moral judgments of me are really stinging. Good job you pointed that out, otherwise I wouldn’t have noticed. Decent attempt, though, for someone who has no logical basis for any morality. I wouldn’t bother, Linus. There’s nothing bad you can tell me about myself that God hasn’t told me already, and forgiven.

            Thank you for your continued presence here. You are an excellent illustration of the logical alternative to Christianity. Often I suspect that you are actually a Christian, giving us a foil. Sometimes you overplay the hand, but generally it’s pretty well done.

          • chefofsinners

            #JeSuisNotVeryNice

          • Jack is still missing Ole Blowers.

          • The Explorer

            Me too.

          • dannybhoy

            What happened to him? He was pretty ill as I recall.

          • The Explorer

            He was old, ill and he went quiet. One draws certain conclusions.

          • Inspector General

            One recalls he lived abroad for some time. Perhaps he came home to spend whatever time he had left, and presumably, the support a more superior health service. Time out for the old fellow, when suspects.

          • chefofsinners

            Been made leader of the Labour Party?

          • dannybhoy

            He liked a laugh and appreciated a response. It’s nice to think he got some pleasure from blogging. God bless Old Blowers.

          • Eustace

            Been missing me, have you? I can’t say the feeling is mutual.

            To deal with your points however:

            1. I’ve always been bored with you. You’re boring people. It’s a prerequisite of faith. Christians have no imagination. And prayer? You really do project yourself onto everything and everyone you see, don’t you? No wonder medieval Christians believed the world revolved around them.

            2. Transfer all done, thanks. But Switzerland? See what I mean about Christians lacking imagination…

            3. What particular plague have you been wishing upon me? Whatever it is, God is clearly not listening to you, which doesn’t surprise me given that he only exists in your head. I’ve never been so well. I’ve merely been preoccupied with other matters lately.

            As for this other person you mention, if he has kicked the bucket, why aren’t you jumping for joy instead of expressing fear and sorrow? If your imaginary deity really does exist and this person grovelled appropriately before him, then he must be staggering about on his cloud in drugged-up bliss right now. So the obvious question must be why aren’t you deliriously happy for him? Could it be you’re not entirely convinced by your own propaganda?

          • Ivan M

            Back to your nasty self eh Linus? Anyway glad that nothing untoward has happened. We don’t expect you to repent of your errors this side of the River Stix, so don’t give yourself any airs.

          • The Explorer

            If he’s been transferring all his assets, hope he’s left himself with the requisite money for being ferried across the river.

          • Ivan M

            Even Kerberos, the multi-headed dog guarding Hades will quail when confronted with his deathless nastiness.

            How’s the swine Pluto keeping these days huh? Still trying to hump Hera, that fat wench?

          • The Explorer

            1. To associate with boring people through necessity is misfortune. To do so by choice looks like carelessness. (Or poor taste.)

            2. Not Switzerland, eh? Of course not, wink wink. Always wise to throw the Inland Revenue off the scent, old chap. You never know who might be reading this.

            3. Chronology. The real time for rejoicing is with the new Heaven and new Earth. That’s when there will be no more grief.

          • Eustace

            1. One always tries to help the afflicted, although I certainly agree that liking Christians shows a shocking want of good taste. As I can’t reasonably be accused of this, my reputation remains intact.

            2. Mrs Mountbatten’s tax police can do their worst. As I’m no longer a UK resident and once the sale of my property is completed, will have no appreciable assets in the UK, I’ll just snap my fingers under their noses and shoo them back to their muddy offshore island. Someone in my position has never been able to indulge in what the press calls “tax avoidance”. My financial affairs are an open book – for those with the statutory right to read it.

            3. I see. So promises are not enough. You need to see the real thing before you stop snivelling, eh? A very agnostic position for a Christian. Where’s this much-vaunted faith of yours?

          • CliveM

            Gasp…….

          • Calm down that man.

          • CliveM

            If he comes back, don’t blame me……

          • The Explorer

            He’s back, but it’s Jack’s fault this time.

          • CliveM

            Hmmmm…………!

            Anyway it’s good to know he’s well, although I notice he playing the ‘I’m not Linus ‘ game again. Which as he has admitted he is, is a bit bizarre!

          • The Explorer

            He’s back. You see what happens when you mention the full name? If you’d stuck to L***s we’d have been all right.

          • Where?

        • Cressida de Nova

          Oops COS

          • Inspector General

            COF seems more appropriate somehow…

          • Chef of Fornicators?

          • chefofsinners

            Need I remind you that ‘the Jack’ carries an alternative meaning?

          • Used for changing tyres on a car.

          • chefofsinners
          • Sir, Jack is shocked to his marrow. He thought you were a man of class. Your secret is safe with me. Did you make a full recovery?

          • chefofsinners

            Merely helping you to see yourself as others see you, dear Jack. Even one of your own poets has said:

            O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us
            To see oursels as ithers see us!
            It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
            An’ foolish notion:
            What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
            An’ ev’n devotion!

        • chefofsinners

          Beatin’ them off with a stick, old gal.

      • You have returned Chef.

      • William Lewis

        What are sinners eating these days, Chef?

        • chefofsinners

          Mostly their own vomit, to which they return like dogs. Followed by just desserts.

          • William Lewis

            Ah. I see. Not enough humble pie.

          • chefofsinners

            In Linus’ case, currently eating his own words.

    • William Lewis

      “Francis is a materialist…”

      That doesn’t sound too promising for someone proclaimed as a spiritual leader.

    • The Explorer

      Sometimes, Mundabor sums things up very well.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Yes we are at war. However, Western leaders dare not even name their enemy. In contrast, Islam is very specific about who the enemy is and what it wants to do to them. Leaders won’t name the enemy because that would be an admission of failure for multi-culturalism. Instead, they cling to vague notions of fighting “extremism” and “terror”. They might as well go and shout at the wind for all the good it does. The fissures in society are already opening up and things could get very messy indeed. Ordinary people won’t tolerate the daily carnage on their doorstep in the name of Allah. If the authorities are going to deal with this problem then they will have to discriminate against Muslims, or at least some of them. They are becoming too dangerous to be treated the same as everybody else.

  • Francis seems terribly confused. In an October, 2014, addressing the World Meeting of Popular Movements, Francis said:

    “There are economic systems that must make war in order to survive. Accordingly, arms are manufactured and sold and, with that, the balance sheets of economies that sacrifice man at the feet of the idol of money are clearly rendered healthy. And no thought is given to hungry children in refugee camps; no thought is given to the forcibly displaced; no thought is given to destroyed homes; no thought is given, finally, to so many destroyed lives. How much suffering, how much destruction, how much grief. Today, dear brothers and sisters, in all parts of the earth, in all nations, in every heart and in grassroots movements, the cry wells up for peace: War no more!”

    So war is caused by our economic system – not religion.

    In July, 2015, in response to a clergyman being kidnapped in Syria, Francis demanded an immediate end to “a form of genocide” of Christians taking place in the Middle East and beyond, describing it as a “third world war.”

    “Today we are dismayed to see how in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world many of our brothers and sisters are persecuted, tortured and killed for their faith in Jesus. In this third world war, waged piecemeal, which we are now experiencing, a form of genocide is taking place, and it must end.”

    At the second World Meeting of Popular Movements that same day, Francis said:

    “Today we are dismayed to see how in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world many of our brothers and sisters are persecuted, tortured and killed for their faith in Jesus. This too needs to be denounced: in this third world war, waged piecemeal, which we are now experiencing, a form of genocide – I insist on the word – is taking place, and it must end.”

  • Inspector General

    Come on chaps, give Frank a break. Did you really want to see the papers thundering “Pope Calls For New Crusade After Atrocities”? Well, how else would a more accurate pronouncement have been interpreted?

    So, how many additional avoidable deaths would that have resulted in…and lie on his conscience…

    It’s like this. When there is a pack of vicious dogs surrounding the compound, there really is no need at all to pin up a notice “Warning – there is a pack of vicious dogs surrounding the compound”.

    • Then all he needed to do was express his horror at the evil murder of Fr. Jacques Hamel and condemn it. Why say anymore?

    • Anton

      To extend the analogy: When the leaders of the compound are putting up notices saying that the animals outside the walls are benevolent even though they tore to pieces the last five men to venture outside, somebody of moral stature needs to say something.

      • Inspector General

        Poking said dogs with sticks of condemnation will make them even more enraged…If you want to be clever about it, you kill them subtly, throwing them poisoned meat, for example.

  • preacher

    ” All religions want peace ! ” No they don’t, from the beginning, unscrupulous men have used religion as a tool of fear to enslave the gullible & fearful into following them like lambs to the slaughter.
    ” I will be like God ” said Lucifer, & men have repeated the mantra ever since. Lucifer failed & they will all share the same fate.
    ” By their fruits you will know them ! ” Spiritual leaders cannot avoid speaking the truth, it’s their job as shepherds to defend the sheep & keep them safe even at the cost of their own lives. The Lord Jesus Christ showed us the true calling of the chief shepherd. The task in hand is to set the captives free from the bondage of religion & bring the flock together into safe pasture, including many who were once enemies of the faith but repent from the heart & receive the salvation provided by the Lord on Calvary.
    Only when Christ returns will the Lion lie down with the Lamb & the little child will play near the snake’s lair. Then all religious pretence will be abolished & we will see clearly, instead of through a dark glass. Evil will be judged & God’s justice will be seen. Only then will true peace prevail.

  • Breaking News:

    Islamists accept their war is not religious but economic. From henceforth their warriors will shout “Keynes Akbar” as they murder and maim.

    • chefofsinners

      The Pontiff will respond by placing lei flower garlands around their necks saying “aloha akbar”.

      • Inspector General

        How one wishes he was blessed with your wit, COF. And you have a sports car too!

        • chefofsinners

          Not a candle to the Inspectorial wit. Nor your mobility scooter.

          • Inspector General

            One blunders on, best he can…

          • chefofsinners

            Do try to keep to the speed limits.

          • dannybhoy

            Have they fitted the blades to the wheels yet?

          • Inspector General

            There’s a thing! In Gloucester, the biggest users of mobility chariots are the soon to be dead ultra obesity types. Fitting blades to the wheels would only encourage the rest of us to beat them to death on sight…

          • CliveM

            Such modesty.

  • One of the following is true.

    Mohammad claims his revelations came from angel Gabriel. And these claims have resulted in Islamic death and destruction for 1,400 years.

    If Mohammad had actually been deceived by the devil to believe he was having a conversation the Gabriel, then Islam is, in reality, the work of the devil.

    Any way you spin it, countless jihadis, yelling Allahu Akbar, (God is great) will killing innocent humans does not sound like the work of the God I believe in.

    The head of the Catholic church is beyond a fool.

    • Inspector General

      Steady, old chap. You’ll get into trouble with (parts of) the CoE if you persist in acknowledging the Devil. Personally, one agrees with you. It was the archangel Lucifer himself who came to Mohamed. It seems this paedophile of an Arab didn’t need too much encouragement to follow the demon in his search for black souls …

      • David

        Stout hearted Anglicans, of a conservative disposition, do not deny the existence of Lucifer. Liberal weak kneed ones do.

        • Inspector General

          Well yes, that’s the point…

    • dannybhoy

      Not a fool. He is seeking peace and a way forward which is commendable, even if misguided, and therefore dangerous.

      “The Qur’an contains detailed instructions and examples of how to meet unbelievers. The Qur’an states categorically that Muslims cannot have non-believers as friends, advisors, consultants or protectors (Qur’an 3:118 and 4:144).
      There is another provision in the Qur’an though, because sometimes Muslims aren’t in a position to wage war. In this occasion, the examples and teachings of the Qur’an are that Muslims may make deals with their enemies, with unbelievers, engage in truces and the like in order to recuperate and gain strength. The overriding concern is the fight against unbelievers; if this can’t be achieved then it is ok to strategically lay low. To achieve more sneaky victories, it is acceptable to deceive, double-cross and break deals. Deals with unbelievers are not real deals, anyway, and are to be broken as soon as more aggressive moves can be made.”

      The Western world naturally enough is not keen on more bloodshed on its own turf, and therefore would rather believe that allowances must be made in order to achieve peace. But for Islam peace means a world united in submission to Islam..

    • Albert

      The head of the Catholic church is beyond a fool.

      Mmmm…I’m not so sure. Isn’t he trying to claim the words “religion” and “Islam” for something peaceful? Given that there are rather a large number of Muslims in the world and that the overwhelming majority do not blow themselves up, that seems quite sensible. What happens if we succeed in convincing Muslims that their religion is violent? Do you think they will all become Christians? Aren’t we more likely to see a rise in Islamist violence?

      If you keep telling a child he is naughty he comes to believe it and behaves accordingly. Young Muslims who are violent are violent in part because they keep being told that to be faithful Muslims, they should be violent.

      Now if we want to see a decline in Islamist violence, which strategy should we use? The foolishness of Pope Francis or the wisdom of men?

      • The Explorer

        “Young Muslims who are violent are violent in part because they keep being told that to be faithful Muslims, they should be violent.”

        It’s a good point. But what are they being taught in mosques: that they should love their infidel neighbours as themselves?

        There was a report a couple of years ago about the curriculum in British madrassas that I found alarming. What it said about Jews does not bear repeating. So if the West bears some responsibility for encouraging young Muslims to be violent, some Muslim educators, at least, must bear equal responsibility.

        • Albert

          But what are they being taught in mosques: that they should love their infidel neighbours as themselves?

          That depends on the Mosque. If the local mosque is telling them Islam teaches them to love their neighbours, then why would Pope Francis tell them that Islam teaches them not to do so.

          There was a report a couple of years ago about the curriculum in British madrassas that I found alarming. What it said about Jews does not bear repeating. So if the West bears some responsibility for encouraging young Muslims to be violent, some Muslim educators, at least, must bear equal responsibility.

          I agree entirely. But where we tell Muslims that they should be violent against us, we do the work of the Islamists for them. What’s the point of that?

          • The Explorer

            It’s tricky. Western populations are told that Islam is a religion of peace and welcome it on that assumption. Western flying schools trained the 9/11 pilots, and gave a scholarship to one of the Boston bombers. When atrocities happen against them – and there have been quite a few now, and certainly more than have been committed by immigrant Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists etc – Western populations are puzzled. And so they look for explanations as to what it is about this one particular religion.

          • Albert

            The question of whether Islam is an inherently violent religion is different from whether my Muslim neighbour or local Mosque teaches it is inherently violent. And that question is different again from whether telling Muslims their religion is violent is likely to increase of reduce the amount of violent Islamism.

            I don’t think we need to worry overly about Western populations. They draw their own conclusions about these things.

      • Anton

        Or is a peaceful Muslim one who ignores suras (chapters) 8 and 9 of the quran, and is perfectly capable of reading them for himself whatever we do or say?

        • Albert

          Or is he one who has some way of interpreting them so that he doesn’t have to attack us?

          Let me put it this way. If my Christian neighbour tells me he doesn’t need to go to church to be a Christian, then I will try to convince him otherwise. My purpose is to change his behaviour and get him to go to church.

          So if my Muslim neighbour tells me he doesn’t need to be a terrorist to be a Muslim,why would I want to change his mind? My own view of what Islam requires is entirely irrelevant.

          • Anton

            Interpret? Read them for yourself and see how much “interpretation” they need.

            O, sorry, Albert, I didn’t understand what you just said. Clearly I need an expert to interpret your words for me.

          • Albert

            I notice that you missed the main part of my post. As for those suras, I don’t have to come up with an interpretation of them that means he doesn’t have to kill me. All I’m saying is that if he tells me that in the light of this or that other teaching, he doesn’t have to kill me, then why would I try to persuade him otherwise? And unless you are actually going to try to persuade your Muslim neighbour Islam requires him to try to kill you, I think you agree with me.

          • Anton

            Sorry Albert, can’t understand you. I need an interpretation of your latest words first.

          • Albert

            As a matter of interest, which words of those suras do you have in mind?

          • Anton

            Peace is advocated in verses which Muslims believe were received by Mohammed during his earlier time in Mecca, but later verses call for war in furtherance of Islam (after Mohammed had quit Mecca in AD622 for Medina, eventually to conquer his way back). This is the Islamic meaning of jihad as interpreted by Mohammed himself, and associated with it are many verses that call for ‘fighting’ (from qatala, meaning ‘to kill’; e.g. Q8:39, 9:5; more available on request after you have dealt with these). Where the quran contains contradictions (raising the question of how it can be the word of an omniscient God), Muslims use a verse which states that the passage received later negates the earlier one (Q2:106). This is the doctrine of abrogation (naskh), which is uncontended.

          • Albert

            Fine. So if my Muslims neighbour tells me that And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah, means he can fight non-Muslims while they persecute Muslims, who am I to grumble, if I am not persecuting him?

            And if he points out that sura 9.5 is followed by sura 9.6 which says:

            And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

            Then again, why should I complain? After all, by the interpretation of naskh, it would seem that 9.5 is qualified by 9.6.

            But the issue here is not how I might interpret these passages. The issue is how Muslims do. And if they are interpreting them in a non-violent way (or before you quibble over the word “interpret”, how about “apply”) then why should I try to disabuse them of that, or punish them for holding what they do not hold? And isn’t this Pope Francis’ policy? Why are you complaining about it? Do you go around telling Muslims that if only they were faithful they would be more violent?

          • Anton

            No. I go around telling that to liberal Christians like Pope Francis, whose job it is to inform the church but who get it disastrously wrong. Mistakes have consequences.

            Mohammed boasted, “I have been made victorious with terror” (Bukhari 4/52/220). Many verses from the Medina years tell Muslims to “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them; seize them, beleaguer them, lie in wait for them in every strategy” (Q9:5, the ‘verse of the sword’), “Fight… until there is no more resistance… and the only faith is in Allah” (Q8:39), “fight the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness” (Q9:123), and “fight those who do not believe in Allah… until they pay tribute… and feel themselves subdued” (Q9:29). The word ‘fight’ is based on the root qatala, meaning making war on, with intent to kill. Believers “fight in his cause, and slay and are slain” (Q9:111), “when you meet the infidels in battle… as you are commanded” (Q47:4). Sorry if you find these verses hard to understand and requiring the detailed attention of expert philosophers and theologians to make sense of.

          • Albert

            No. I go around telling that to liberal Christians like Pope Francis, whose job it is to inform the church but who get it disastrously wrong. Mistakes have consequences.

            So in fact, you do much the same as Pope Francis, while telling him he’s wrong.

            Now, as to your verses, you don’t seem to understand that I can agree with you about Islam, without thinking it is prudent to go around telling Muslims about these verses and what you take them to mean. If a Muslim tells me they only apply to those who fight Islam, or if he says that they only applied at that time, why would I wish to disabuse him of these beliefs?

            If you persist in stirring up Muslims to violence in this way, surely, you are going to have to begin to take some small responsibility for their violence.

          • Anton

            I am telling anybody who believes Islam is a religion of peace, whether liberal Christians like Pope Francis, or politically correct secularists, that parts of its scriptures do not match that claim. The response to Islam has to be based on truth. In no way am I inciting anybody to violence and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. People are responsible for their own actions. To say I am doing the same as Pope Francis when I am saying the opposite is absurd.

          • Albert

            I am telling anybody who believes Islam is a religion of peace, whether liberal Christians like Pope Francis, or politically correct secularists, that parts of its scriptures do not match that claim.

            This is true, but it is also true of the Judeo-Christian scriptures, and yet, we do not say that these religions are not religions of peace. Why not? Because whatever those texts say, the simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of Jews and Christians are not violent. And the same is true of Islam. Most Muslims are not violent, and rightly or wrongly, they do not think their religion teaches them to be violent. Pope Francis is encouraging this attitude. For some reasons, you are unhappy with Pope Francis exalting peace in this way.

            His comments do not say “There is no violence in the Qur’an.” You could say he is making an a priori statement: what is genuinely religious is not violent. If so, then he is trying to claim the terminology as an instrument of peace. For reasons I find extraordinary, you wish to critique him for this.

            In no way am I inciting anybody to violence and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

            You do not know my motives and I made no comment on your motives, therefore you are quite wrong to accuse me of being disingenuous. I simply commented on the effect comments such as yours have. I think people like you who bang on about Islam being a religion of violence are simply doing the work of the extremists for them. They tell people Islam is a religion of violence because they know that that way, they will make some Muslims violent. Why would it be any different if you make yourself part of a culture that says the same?

            To say I am doing the same as Pope Francis when I am saying the opposite is absurd.

            Your position is self-contradictory. You do the same as Pope Francis when you answer “No” to my question “Do you go around telling Muslims that if only they were faithful they would be more violent?” But then you contribute to a culture which does tell Muslims Islam teaches them to be violent. So the absurdity is not my accusation, but in the contradictory nature of your position.

          • Anton

            Jesus nowhere advocates violence in furtherance of the Christian faith and in fact requires free choice to be offered. As for who is being absurd, let the reader decide. I am glad of all peaceable behaviour but the question is this: when a Christian is peaceful or bellicose, which matches his scriptures? And likewise for a Muslim.

          • Albert

            Jesus nowhere advocates violence in furtherance of the Christian faith and in fact requires free choice to be offered.

            You said, I am telling anybody who believes Islam is a religion of peace, whether liberal Christians like Pope Francis, or politically correct secularists, that parts of its scriptures do not match that claim.

            And I simply pointed out that something similar could be said for the Judeo-Christian scriptures – but it doesn’t mean that we should say Judaism and Christianity are not religions of peace. You’ve moved on to talk about Jesus. Fine. I agree (obviously). But doesn’t that render your argument, as it stands, invalid? It does not follow that because a religion has violence in its scriptures, that therefore (i.e. on the strength of that alone) that the religion is violent. Somehow or other, we Christians deal with the violent passages without being violent. Now if a Muslim tells me he has the same idea, who am I to grumble? It turns out that huge numbers of Muslims thinks that. I may think this position makes no sense, but why should I challenge it? On what authority, and with what purpose? On the contrary, if Muslims are peaceful, shouldn’t I endorse their position, rather than unjustly tarring them with a violent brush?

            Moreover, I said Judeo-Christian scriptures. Obviously, I think the peaceable nature of Jesus trumps any violence in the OT. But what about Jews? There’s violence in their scriptures. There’s no Jesus to trump it. And yet we do not think Judaism is a religion of violence. I don’t need to be interested in how peaceful Jews deal with the violence in their scriptures. I don’t need to be convinced by their interpretations. I just need to note that they do not think they should be violent.

            You are absurd because you do not wish to encourage peaceful Muslims to think that they should be violent. And yet you contribute to a culture, which does just that – indeed your whole argument here has been precisely to argue peaceful interpretations of the Qur’an are illegitimate. What’s your purpose in that?

          • Anton

            Interpretations be blowed. It’s obvious what is said there. If those passages can be subject to misunderstanding then so can your words no matter how hard you labour for clarity. The fact that many Muslims are peaceful – which I welcome – does not necessarily mean that they “interpret” these verses differently from other Muslims. It might mean that they ignore them. As for Judaism, I am a Christian and I do not speak for Jews, even though I believe we worship the same God.

        • Would you wear a T-shirt with a Mohammad cartoon printed on it?

          You might in Montana. Don’t try it in Mecca.

          Why?

          Because, Islam trains a small number of its most devout believers it’s OK to kill. And Islamic killers have been trained to kill anyone who insults Allah and/or Mohammad.

          In Montana you’d have a good chance none of these Islamic killers would see you.

          In Mecca you wouldn’t last five minutes. One of Islam’s killers would come from out of nowhere and kill you. It is that simple.

          You don’t believe me? Ask any Muslim!

          Read it all at: http://islamsfatalflaw.blogspot.com/
          I have over a million readers without anyone proving me wrong.

          • Anton

            I do believe you. I think you are misreading me!

      • Same old BS.

        Islamic theology is the problem. It creates hell on earth.

        Don’t give me the peaceful Muslim crap. They are captives within the Islamic framework. Ask a woman who does not want to wear a burka.

        Sure a few Muslims like the system. So what. Islam puts the fruitcakes in charge. And that’s the big problem.

        Islam needs a reformation at minimum. Or be destroyed at best.

        • Albert

          This is a very silly post, which suggests you have not read what I wrote. Nothing I said indicates Islam is a religion of peace, nothing I wrote indicates I think Islamic theology isn’t a problem. I simply pointed out that telling Muslims who don’t go out killing people that, to be consistent with their religion they ought to be, is a recipe for more Islamist violence.

          All I’m saying is that if my Muslim neighbour tells me that his religion forbids him from killing me and requires him to live in peace, then why would I try to persuade him otherwise? And unless you are actually going to try to persuade your Muslim neighbour Islam requires him to try to kill you, I think you agree with me.

          So what’s your position? Do you really think my position is BS? I suspect you agree with it.

          Islam needs a reformation at minimum.

          Oh that’s a brilliant idea. Did the unprecedented European religious violence that followed the Protestant Reformation pass you by?

          • Ivan M

            The vast majority of Muslims will as you say just get by. Part of the problem is that the Islamic world has a population bulge of young men that needs an outlet.

          • bockerglory

            That’s because Muslim women abort baby girls…..

            God created man and woman. Not lots of men and a handful of women.

            Hopefully the Chinese, Hindus, Sikhs & Buddhists will sort out Islam.

  • David

    I rather respected the previous two popes, but this one – oh dear ! I shall leave my Catholic friends to pore over the details, analyse them and pronounce judgement.

    Meanwhile over on Breitbart London, there is an article that, interestingly, contrasts this ridiculous, and dangerous, denial of reality by the Pope, with a rather more robust response from a humble parish priest, of New York. He reminds us that it is a Christian duty to fight evil and protect the weak, and especially to fight to protect those who you have a responsibility to defend against evil. To this I say – well said !

    Quite frankly, I have had a bellyful of whinging, leftist, liberal, hippy type so called Christians. When our civilisation is in danger, we must fight to protect it. Let us ignore those who disagree – be it a Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury.

    • bluedog

      One struggles to understand the continuing reluctance of the political elites to confront the reality of Islamism, and offers the idea that the problem is in part generational. In other words, a change in attitudes at the top will only come when a younger generation takes power, bloodied but unbowed by a life lived against the background of unforgiving Islamic jihad. Our current leadership is still suffused with the glories of 1968 and utterly immersed in the evils of the Frankfurt School.

      Take David Cameron’s tutor at Oxford, Vernon Bogdanor. A quick look at Bogdanor’s CV suggests there may well exist a direct link to Georg Lukacs, and the shared interests of the two men seem unlikely to be merely co-incidental. Bogdanor is of a generation for whom evolved Marxism was a credible proposition during his youth, even though his own current views seem conservative. Of course Marxism is an entirely supranational suite of beliefs within which multiculturalism was a core attribute, enabling the success of the broader movement. As we know, multiculturalism has collided with Islam and lost.

      One offers these thoughts in an attempt to identify the time period during which a change of attitude among the elites can be expected. Cameron is a handy metaphor for a generation that may be the last of the Left-Liberals to hold power. It is always possible that even he will come to recognise that the theoretical under-pinnings of his own political assumptions are unsound. During his spell on the back-benches Cameron will have time for reflection, and a Damascene conversion to a more conservative outlook may not be out of the question. Such a transformation could be an important catalyst for a wider diffusion of reality.

      • Inspector General

        The slide to right wing thinking is unstoppable now in the West, Bluedog…

        And after what the liberals have left us, a damn good thing too!

      • David

        Basically I agree with you.
        My approach is this. Politicians are like academics, but more so. Both groups invest much in publicly supporting certain viewpoints, with which they then become associated. After a lifetime of doing this, retreat, admitting that one supported, or argued for, the wrong political policy, or academic theory, becomes difficult for all but the most honest, upright and integrity filled politician or academic. Politicians in particular are not noted for being honest, or upright of full of integrity. Academics are often rather (how do I phrase this ?) circumscribed by their very specialised cocoon of an environment.
        So although few politicians now believe in multi-culti, they don’t know how to admit that the theory is wrong, utterly wrong, and rescue their reputation, life’s work and career. But there are a few utterly deluded types who still believe in it – despite all the evidence, because it is a belief system, not a rational principle around which to organise society.
        That’s my take on it.
        Yes let us hope for a more realistic future generation unsullied by the incredibly destructive effects of Frankfurt School thinking. But can western civilisation wait that long ?

    • Anton

      But why is God raising a deadly enemy against our civilisation at this time? Is it more than coincidence that it has become rotten within during the last 60 years? Is this impending judgement if we do not put our own house in order? If so, that it the top priority and fighting the foe without doing that is futile.

      • David

        The pragmatist in me says that we need to fight on both fronts, both a rediscovery of Christianity in a form that speaks to our present 21st C ( whilst being utterly traditional doctrinally), and physically defeating the foe.

        • Anton

          Without disagreeing, who – at this point – is “we”? The nation? Or the church in the nation? They were never the same.

          • David

            Western society, undifferentiated. It is mainly the nations of the west. But the Church too must reject liberalism, returning to its core doctrine, faith and practices. So it is, “the whole shooting match !”. I yearn for a sharp turn right, politically, doctrinally and socially. It will happen. Our esteemed colleague, no less a personage than The Inspector, maintains that it is already happening. I believe him to be correct. So rearm (physically and metaphysically, spiritually) and rejoice !

          • Anton

            The point is that the church – the true church, at least – is a voluntary grouping, whereas the nation is under its own code of law which citizens have to obey. We can offer people Christ but they have to be free to say No, and most will. So how do we change the nation, which is where the disaster in the family is?

          • David

            First and foremost this is a spiritual war, so we start in the Church, which needs to reform itself.
            At a practical level, we start to address the “disaster” of the family by giving tax incentives to encourage fidelity in marriage.
            These are complex, huge matters, obviously, and we will need the leadership of The Holy Spirit, without which nothing can be achieved.

          • chefofsinners

            It has ever been thus. The church was born under the persecution of Judaism and of Rome. Today the persecutors are different but the position is the same. We are in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation. Our calling is to “shine like stars in the world” – Php 2:15. – and to love our enemies.
            Every death is a tragedy, of course, but if God uses world events to purify us, it is not before time.

        • dannybhoy

          Yes, I think the verse ” For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.”
          Hebrews 12:6
          applies here. Revelation also speaks about God’s discipline of the Churches..
          So I think God is using the current situation to shake up the Church and purify it, but imv it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t also stand up for what is best in our nation and be prepared to defend it.
          We mustn’t forget that it is because our forebears fought for our nation, and if they hadn’t been prepared to actually fight, we wouldn’t now be free to debate the issues.

      • CliveM

        So what was God punishing Europe for with the rise of National Socialism and Stalinism 80 years ago? If he was , what was it we changed, so as to enable our armies to win? Was Hitler not a deadly enemy against civilisation?

        Why would God allow Children in Nice be murdered as a punishment for abortion?

        • Anton

          We won that war, which was a civil war within industrialised societies. We won’t win this one unless we put our family structure in order. And the enemy is older and from outside. The scale is huge.

          • CliveM

            Thing is Anton I don’t understand. You appear to be suggesting that our current problems are a warning/punishment from God, due to the break down of the traditional family and abortion. Indeed if I understand right, you believe trying to defend ourselves will be pointless unless we as a society repent. I wonder why you think this. We have faced dangerous threats before. Why weren’t these God punishing us? I’m going to be honest here and say I have a difficulty with appropriating current events and projecting onto them Gods intervention. I believe he can and does intervene, I just think we should be careful before proclaiming specific events as intervention and identifying them as Godly punishment without more evidence.

          • Anton

            The rise of Islam is an unprecedented threat. Even Hitler was squarely from European civilisation. Islam has been European civilisation’s most enduring and deadliest foe, for 1300 years.

            Look at the stats for extramarital births, divorce, single-parent families, unmarried cohabitation. These have been steady since they were first loggable some 500 years ago at 2-5%, the higher end when there was social stress. But now they have rocketed in one lifetime to 50%. That too is unprecedented. On top of which there is industrial-scale abortion.

            My insistence that the one is impending judgement for the other is based on the unprecedented nature of both, and above all on the study “Sex and Culture” by JD Unwin (1934), which made a study of some 80 human cultures over history and geography and found without exception that they rose in wealth and strength when they conformed to biblical sexual morality – above all, virginity of women at first marriage, tiny divorce stats, and negligible adultery – and fell when they went promiscuous. Unwin was not a Christian and had a weird Freudian theory to account for it, but was wise enough to separate his speculations from his empirical findings. I say the explanation is that the principles of loyalty and how to get on with people, which are needed for society to function, are learned largely within the family, by example. A society with weak family structure becomes a pushover when an enemy presses it. In his multi-volume history of civilisation, Will Durant stated that a great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. Societies which trample God’s moral laws, collapse under the weight of their sins and face rape by their enemies as divine judgement. The Israelites were commissioned to deliver judgement on the Canaanites, once their sin had reached full measure (Genesis 15:16); Leviticus 18:24 states that this was sexual sin, which wrecks families. God did not intend adults to bear the breakdown of sexual relationships, let alone the torn children of such unions. Today people see sexual gratification, which is a choice, as a right; but do not consider whether children, who have no choice, have a right to be brought up within a stable home. Serial monogamy is no good for them. Growing up in instability they have no stable model instilled, upon which to draw when they grow up.

          • CliveM

            I’m going to have to do some checking as I don’t believe those figures with regards single parent families etc being stable at 2 to 5% over 500 years. From reading I have previously done, I think we can have a rose tinted view on the realities of sexual mores of the past.

          • Alison Bailey Castellina

            I have read in passing that genealogists say that illegitimacy in the UK was rare in the past e.g. until the 20th century, that a high number of people never married and thus were living celibate lives on the whole.

          • Anton

            Certainly marriage was delayed and people were able to be celibate during that delay.

          • dannybhoy

            Anton, sorry to disagree but for a long time in this country the poor endured awful living conditions, awful diet and no healthcare. Many slept in one room for warmth and as a result there were children born out of wedlock or from incest. To what degree we don’t know, but if you consider the living standards of those in third world countries or closed and isolated communities, the rates would surely be similar.

          • Anton

            I can’t put much weight on comments without at least some estimate of the numbers.

          • dannybhoy

            I understand that Anton, and why you as a professional Christian man would want reasonable evidence.
            I can’t give it. I can only point out that (fallen) human nature hasn’t changed, and that human communities do not parade their dirty washing in public. (One of the reasons I believe the Scriptures to be inspired.)
            Consider though that the medieval Church sold indulgences, that pious men and women scourged themselves for their sinful passions and sin is always with us…
            My thinking of course is based on reading, observation and deduction, rather than statistical evidence.

          • Ivan M

            Well that is wrong. Respectability of a kind came with the Victorians.

          • Alison Bailey Castellina

            I heard this ‘in passing’ so cannot verify it. In my own extensive (and average) UK family tree, for 250 years everyone’s parents were married (100%), though using census material one cannot work out if the eldest child was conceived before wedlock. This is the classic book on the topic: http://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/events/bastardy/

          • Ivan M

            I have no data and may very well be wrong. I read that Victorian morality as such became widespread after Bishop Wilberforce campaigned against child prostitution and suchlike. While the famous people may have led godly lives, there would have been substantial numbers that did not. This is pretty commonplace throughout history everywhere.

          • Anton

            I’m sure that men visited prostitutes and many couples got married when the woman got pregnant, but the point is that the family was stable – making a bedrock for the next generation. Do check those figures. I have.

          • CliveM

            Problem with figures is that a lot of the time they were based a Parish Baptism records. These missed things like abortion, infanticide, abandonment etc.

            Indeed it is probable that some Priests will have refused to recognise and baptise the illigitimate.

            Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of time today, but see link for some background.

            http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/TEXTS/bastardy.pdf

          • Anton

            I’m short on time too, but Alan Macfarlane is always worth reading.

          • CliveM

            I think I find the fact you seem to have read every academic writer on just about every topic a little frightening :0)

          • Anton

            I don’t mean to frighten! Macfarlane on the origins of English individualism, and on the use of human excreta as fertiliser in feudal Japan without the health problems that accompanied it in China, is remarkable reading. Also he looks at Adam Smith through the lens of an social anthropologist rather than an economist, to advantage. Macfarlane is a grand exception to the rule that social anthropology is waffle.

          • Ivan M

            Josef Stalin was a great reader too, as many as 30,000 books. The world’s most dangerous reader, as noted by Donald Rayfield

          • uppitynorth

            RE priests not baptising the illegitimate. I’ve been transcribing parish records for quite a few years and I come across one or two baptisms of illegitimate children with every batch of records. The child would not have it’s father’s name on the record plus the priest would usually enter the term “base” in the margin. The church may have disapproved of the parent’s behaviour but, from my observations would not deny the child entry to the church.

          • Dreadnaught

            Just shows how much religion addles the brain. You ignore stuff like 9/11; 7/7 and those eighty people recently scraped to deat in Nice who did not deserve to die at the hands of a Muslim who also believed he was carrying out the will of God.
            You’ve lost the plot old lad.

          • Anton

            Unwin was secular. He had no religious agenda.

            With your further words about me you are actually launching an attack on my master Jesus Christ. Under his command I return your insults, not as insults but as blessings upon you.

          • The single greatest sin of late 20th century man is abortion.
            During 2010–2014, an estimated 56 million abortions occurred each year worldwide. 56 million a year. This is the result of the West’s sexual immorality that sees sex as pleasure and fulfilment and separates it from love between a man and a woman in a permanent marriage for procreation and raising children. The dead children of abortion are our sacrifice on the altar to the god of sex.

            Btw, the judgement may also be on Islam which has kept millions in spiritual bondage for 1400 years.

          • Anton

            Whether it’s the single greatest sin I’m less sure than you, but we absolutely agree that it is terrible. And worse in countries such as ours where the government not only legalises it but performs it.

            One day Islam is in for judgement too, although how and when is less clear to me. I believe that the Middle East is revving up for the next round of Sunni vs Shia (ie ISIS vs Iran), which with modern weaponry will be terrible.

          • dannybhoy

            I agree with you Clive.
            I think you’re highlighting the differences between the concept that everything that happens is God ordained, including who we are born to be. This is based mainly on Old Testament Scriptures, where Israel as the Chosen People and their relationship to God is the central theme.
            Out of this thinking springs things like the Prosperity Gospel and healing as a right etc etc.
            The other view concentrates on man’s free will, his intelligence and creativity, and what he chooses to achieve with it. That outside of Israel the ‘goyim’ rule themselves, develop their civilisations and fight their wars without regard to the true God.(Psalm 2).
            It seems to me that God has built into his creation freedom and consequences, which allows man to exercise his free will and taking the consequences -good or bad- of his decisions.
            God uses man’s decisions for His own purposes, so in this case the rise of radical Islam is as a consequence of what the Western world has done, and we are now experiencing the fallout. God is using these things to shake up the Church out of its complacency and sloppy thinking.

          • CliveM

            Generally I would agree with your understanding. I believe when things go wrong it’s due to our own actions, although God (as he does with all things) will use events to further his purpose.

          • dannybhoy

            I think a Scriptural case can be made for both views. No Christian would deny though that God is Sovereign over His Creation, nor that man was given free will, the ability to choose.

          • CliveM

            Maybe although I think the implications of certain theology is that free will doesn’t exist.

          • dannybhoy

            Then we become bit players in a celestial tragedy..
            I don’t buy that.

          • CliveM

            Me neither.

        • Human greed and sin.

          The two World Wars arose in Europe as a consequence of colonies and empires that exploited the peoples of the earth for the benefit of a few countries. And the revolution in Russia, like that in France before it, was the result of selfish rulers who neglected their people’s wellbeing and forgot their duties.

          • Old Nick

            I wholly fail to see how “colonies and empires” caused the First World War.

          • Background factors were competition between Britain, France, Germany, the Ottomans and Russia for domination of Europe, access to sea routes and the protection and expansion of colonial empires.

          • IanCad

            The Fateful Alliance – the Franco – Russian Pact.
            Did for millions.

          • Old Nick

            Precisely. And that has absolutely nothing to do with colonies – Russia had no colonies, nor with empires in the sense of ‘dominion over palm and pine’. Add in German fear of encirclement, the wish of the French for a return match for 1870, some dodgy thinking on the Austrian and German general staff and characteristically honourable British thinking about Belgium neutrality and you have wholesale horror.

          • CliveM

            But isn’t that the point, Our own actions lead to these failings.

            So with regards the influx and its effect of so many Islamic migrants, what we are seeing isn’t Gods punishment for our sins, this is an event we have brought on ourselves, by our sin. It’s an inevitable result of our own actions.

            I think this distinction is important.

          • dannybhoy

            Isn’t that what Jack is saying Clive?

          • CliveM

            Happy Jack was commenting on something I was discussing with Anton. I was clarifying my position for both of them, as Anton (and I maybe misunderstanding) seemed to be suggesting that current events were a direct punishment from God and as such our response to it will fail unless we change our ways with regards marriage, abortion etc.

            Personally I am uncomfortable with making such direct cause and effects.

      • Old Nick

        Assyrians. Think Sargon and Sennacherib and the ‘foe from the North’. God did not like them, but they did His work.

      • Ivan M

        You are always temporarising. Never ready until everything is pitch perfect. Which is quite alright since there is not going to be any kind of war.

        • Anton

          God’s told you that?

  • chrisH

    Islam is Gods purgative,a corrective.
    Unlike the secular media, these Muslims fear God.
    It`s very much a parody of Old Testament theology as found in the prophetic literature…for the Koran has nothing new to say for Islam, only terror tactics and supremacist pieties.
    The New Testament has been jettisoned, the Judaic disciplines that were fused uniquely into the greatest composite “religion in action” that is Christianity is now hollowed to a husk.
    God has been in the business of improving or removing…He is now removing.
    Of course there are other ways to come…but those out there who created the current relativist, amoral vacuous cultures of sport, celebrity, scientism, Gaia worship, materialism and the prosperity “gospels”?…well, they will have to learn to live with what they permitted, as they scorned the Cross of Jesus.

    • Dreadnaught

      And all this random murder is your God of Love in action? You believe this?…
      Man, you need seeing to.

      • chrisH

        Random murder eh?
        Seems to me that it`s you that “needs seeing to”.
        Let me make it simpler for you…you take the main civilising effect of Christianity out of public life…then, as Jesus Himself says-you`ll get a few things worse that in its place.
        And who spoke of a God Of Love”?
        Not me-just you in your “God is a Granny” level of theology.
        Might be worth you picking up a Bible-not your little Gideons one but the full one that Jews know…and Christians used to once.
        I`ll sum it up as “you cannot under stand Gods love, without some notion of Gods righteous anger too”.
        Not difficult-you`d probably call it Karma, which is not the worst place to start.
        Seeing this collection of atrocities as “random murder” is worse…

        • Dreadnaught

          So your God is not a Loving god but one of petulant violence if he can’t get his own way. You clearly believe, but you are seriously deluded and taking the same line as the perpetrators of random murder in the name of a religion. Your shade of faith is not only stupid but blocks any attempt to link terrorism with religion.
          The Theology you follow serves only as an attempt to prove the unprovable and lend legitimacy to a false philosophy that suspends logic.

          • chrisH

            ” A god of petulant violence”?…think you`ll find a HE is a God of Infinite mercy, of love-but also of inevitable and final judgement.
            Please don`t paraphrase what you`re not understanding-I told you once already!
            “You clearly believe”-“seriously deluded”…akin to “perpetrating random murders”am I ?…be very careful what you say pal, it`s not “random”…it`s ISLAM…and you play with fire if you wilfully choose to associate Judeo-Christian precepts with your imagined notion of what a “faith” is …let alone MY personal beliefs and faith.
            I have linked terrorism, murder to religion-I call it Islam, you call it religion-when you know the difference between a religion, a faith, a belief, a belief system,,,then a theology, a doctrine, a dogma or a credo etc…come back and talk-until then, do be careful in what you say.
            You know nothing of what “theology I follow”…your last sentence needs a reread from you, it merely confuses the previous one with yet more sub-prime ad hominem stuff from the Book of Moron.
            Never wise to presume about “my God”-He`s only a heartbeat away, so do tread carefully…but better still, be informed and lay the blame for your confusions and contortions where it belongs…between Medina and Rouen I expect…but stay out of Israel won`t you?

      • knight

        My Christ is loving. Your the type of person that put Christ on the Cross.

        Evil rules the world and kills. What is now happening is testing people to see who is the true followers of Christ, and those that letter to follow evil.

        Christ will come back with a vengeance as in Revelations 9 to purify the earth. God would not do another flood of the earth as a promise. How many times my God Yahweh YHWH has to step in when Yahweh gave us freedom to be ourselves.

        • Dreadnaught

          Your the type of person that put Christ on the Cross.

          Oh, that old chestnut. Be happy.

  • knight

    This Pope joins a long list of corrupt Popes.

    Ask yourself who has been the major victims of most wars have been the Orthdoox Christians, Jews and others that broke away from the Catholic Church, and those that have not converted to Islam.

    Most of Europe is Catholic Countries, and those took us to war have been Catholic and Muslims through 1400 years.

    The other victims have been collateral damage to kill ones own to gain power.

    Both Islam and the Catholic Church has done forced conversions. The biggest amount was in Serbia by the Catholic Croatian Ustase and still killing most with the help of the Bosnian Muslims, Handschar Waffen SS. Even the Spanish Civil war killed all non-Catholics with the help of the Muslim Moors.

    WW1 was not just started by Germany. Serbia wanted it’s freedom from Muslims, where Catholic Austria put pressure on Serbia with creating the Bosnian Serbian in Bosnia that had many Serbian Orthodox Christians. Look up War of Pigs, Serbia War 1912. Serbia was caught between Catholics and the decking Ottoman Empire. The Muslim Turks were already had slaughtered many Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. Turkey wanted Serbia as to control the Black Sea and buffer from Russia. Russia was weakened with the Russian- Japenese to offer Serbia and Armenia lots of help.

    Gavrilo Princip who took us to WW1 shooting Archduke Ferdinand was not alone as he belonged to the Young Bosnians who was misguided by the Blackhand Dragutin Dimitrijević who already associated the King of Serbia. Pope Pius X hated the Serbians and put pressure on Austria to go to war with Serbia. Germany’s Kaiser was already in bed with the Sultan and liked the Muslim style. The Sultan removed left the Three Pasha’s to claw for rebuilding the Ottoman Empire.

    Hitler and most of his henchmen were Catholics. Hitler married in Catholic Church to Eva Braun.

    Another important player was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini who sided with Germany, Al Banna founder of Muslim Brotherhood still plays out today. The Grand Mufti had input into the Muslim Brotherhood as he could not be in two places at once. But he was the main figure in Iraq, Iran and Palestine. He did not die till about 1974.

    Look up Hitler’s Pope
    Ratlines – Red Cross, Vatican and CIA
    Operation Paperclip
    Kissinger’s Spies
    Those corporates, banks, multinationals that funded Hitler, the Russian Revolution and Stalin, and how backed them. Even Prescott Bush helped Hitler, father, Grandfather of Presidents.

    There is so much more and hard to put so much into a short message

    One should also look up Chi-Rho and Constantine’s Donation. Constantine’s Donation was created well after Constantine’s death that gives power to the Papacy.

    So much to learn from history and we have virtually been told nothing in our schools.

    • Not too great on facts, are you?

      Just one example:

      “Hitler married in Catholic Church to Eva Braun.”

      Hitler actually married Eva Braun in a civil ceremony in the Führerbunker the night before they committed suicide.

      “Those corporates, banks, multinationals that funded Hitler, the Russian Revolution and Stalin, and how backed them. Even Prescott Bush helped Hitler, father, Grandfather of Presidents.”

      It’s all the doing of the shape shifting Masonic-Jesuit-Zionist-Islamists who originated on Alpha Centauri.

      • knight

        I know I have seen him at Church with Eva, even if I may have it wrong my point was that he grew up a Catholic and still had a Catholic marriage

        • But he didn’t have a Catholic marriage. It was a civil service. Many grow-up Catholic who then abandon their faith in later life.

          • knight
          • Albert

            You really shouldn’t believe everything you read on the internet. I scrolled down this and noticed a curious caption at the bottom of the page saying the Pius XII, when he was nuncio to Germany, had initiated the practice of attending Hitler’s birthday party. In fact, Pacelli (Pius XII prior to becoming Pope) was not nuncio to Germany when Hitler was in power.

          • knight
          • Albert

            I take it you have not read Hitler’s Pope. Even though Hitler’s Pope was the first book I read on the modern Church, it was obvious that it was a pretty thin case. Since then, even the author moved back from what he said there.

            So why not read Rabbi Dalin’s book The Myth of Hitler’s Pope? Rabbi Dalin destroys Cornwall’s book, and concludes that Cornwall and others like him: exploit the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today. Indeed, Dalin goes so far as to describe those who deny Pius’ role in saving Jews as “holocaust deniers”, since they deny the testimony of so many holocaust survivors. Are you content to be a holocaust denier who simultaneously exploits the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster your own anti-Catholic agenda?

            As you say, Always nice discovering things.

          • knight

            What are you some sort of jerk to say I am a holocaust denier.

            I am fighting for Christ’s children, and that includes the Jews who will one day acknowledge Christ as Lord God, and all others that will accept his free gift.

            What have you done this week besides yap. Have you been out talking to others to try and wake people up from a deadly sleep.

          • Albert

            I did not say that you are a Holocaust denier. I said that a Rabbi historian of the Holocaust had said that those who deny Pius’ role in saving Jews were holocaust deniers. I then asked if you wanted to be part of their company. I assumed you would answer no. You’re so busy accusing me of something I haven’t done, that you haven’t even denied the accusation you raise against yourself. I tell you, if I think someone has accused me of being a holocaust denier, the first thing I will do is deny it.

            I am fighting for Christ’s children, and that includes the Jews who will one day acknowledge Christ as Lord God, and all others that will accept his free gift.

            In which case you will not wish to be part of those who bear false witness and misuse the Jewish suffering to do so. Which is all my post was designed to encourage you to avoid.

            What have you done this week besides yap. Have you been out talking to others to try and wake people up from a deadly sleep.

            Your posts seem to have a thread of presumption in them. First you posted a link assuming no one would be able to easily spot the historical infelicity in it. Then you posted a link to Cornwall’s article, with a comment saying Always nice discovering things assuming I haven’t read and cannot critique the book. Then you assume I called you a Holocaust denier, when I didn’t, and now you assume you know what I’ve been doing in the last week.

            I don’t think you will win many for Christ that way.

          • knight

            If the Pope was true to Christ, he should have sacrificed himself, been the head of the Catholic Church to waken people up.

            There would have been such a cry that the Pope was killed. Christ gave himself to save us in his sacrifice. Christ could have saved himself from such pain, but took on the world’s sin, so all who come to him can be set free from sin.

            Many other people have put their lives first to sacrifice themselves for their families, their country.

          • Albert

            If the Pope was true to Christ, he should have sacrificed himself, been the head of the Catholic Church to waken people up.

            You are assuming, rather naively, that the Nazis would take the bait. In fact, the Pope was such a thorn in the side of the Nazis that there was a plot to kidnap the Pope and the Pope had passed a decree stating that he would cease to be the Pope the moment he was arrested. The plot failed because the SS leader in Rome realised it would cause the international outcry that would be bad for Germany. This being so, I think what you are calling for would look more like suicide than martyrdom. And if there had been such an outcry, would it have made any difference really? The greatest powers in the world were already fighting Hitler.

            Now there is no doubting the personal courage of Pius XII. When he was Nuncio in Germany after World War I (not during Hitler’s time as you source indicated), he stood by the German people during the revolutionary era (a time when most foreign ambassadors fled. His residence was sprayed with machine gun fire, and on one occasion revolutionaries broke into his home and put a pistol in his face. He faced them down.

            How does your personal courage compare?

      • Anton

        You’re right about Hitler and Eva Braun, but he’s right about the money. Read Antony Sutton’s sobering and fully documented books about that.

      • knight

        You certainly know nothing on those that helped Hitler, do your homework. There is heaps out there and they all cannot be wrong.

        How the Allied multinationals supplied Nazi Germany throughout World War II
        https://libcom.org/library/allied-multinationals-supply-nazi-germany-world-war-2

        Hitler’s American Business Partners
        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SMKnH2BlkBA

        The Americans who funded Hitler, Nazis, German economic miracle, and World War II
        https://www.sott.net/article/298259-The-Americans-who-funded-Hitler-Nazis-German-economic-miracle-and-World-War-II

        Four Generations of Wall Street War-Making and War-Profiteering
        http://www.communitycurrency.org/BushCrimeFamily.html

        Who financed Lenin and Trotsky?
        http://www.wildboar.net/multilingual/easterneuropean/russian/literature/articles/whofinanced/whofinancedleninandtrotsky.html

        http://transmissionsmedia.com/wall-street-funded-both-communists-and-nazis/

  • preacher

    Sin is a contagious disease. All mankind carry this virus. There is no distinction between different sins – they all kill ! every individual is responsible for their own sins & their responses to them. The only antidote was provided by God in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary.
    Left unchecked, or worse still encouraged in society especially by those entrusted to rule, it will escalate to epidemic proportions & even a pandemic eventually.
    God is not punishing us, we are living in a society that has become hardened to sin by choice & practice – those that practice sin & approve of those that knowingly commit it are responsible for the evil that results throughout the World & affects all mankind.
    The born again, Holy Spirit believers who collectively are the Church of Jesus Christ, have received the commission to offer humanity the antidote – ” The Blood of Jesus Christ, shed on Calvary for the forgiveness of sin “. Many, even most will reject the offer, but the Church must still fulfil it’s purpose. Many believers will suffer martyrdom before the end will come for proclaiming this message, but God will not lose even one of these, His saints, they will inherit eternal life.
    The book of Revelation will I believe confirm all the above & the state of many of the Churches at that time.
    The hour is late & we must pray & act if any are to be added to the Kingdom, it’s time to decide.
    Blessings. P.

  • great disconformity

    Misguided charity is one of the faces of Evil.
    Charity towards an ideology that seeks to destroy Western Civilization is misguided.

  • len

    Pope Benedict obviously wasn`t the man to bring a fusion of’ pseudo Christianity’ and Islam together…so he went…Enter stage left Pope Francis prepared to jettison anything to make his mission work ,which is a fusion of pseudo Christianity and Islam.’ Chrislam’ in short. The point of agreement will be the Catholic ‘Mary’.This might surprise some people that Muslims have a great respect for ‘Mary’. Add to that mix ‘Fatimah'(and the strange goings on there?) who was also Mohamed’s youngest daughter and we have a point of contact…..
    “Catholics are delighted to learn that there are more verses in the Qur’an — 34 of them — which name the Blessed Virgin Mary than there are in the whole New Testament.” He said that while Muslims do not believe that Mary is the mother of God, they hold her in great esteem. Keeler said that although a “radical difference in faith forever separates us” with regard to Mary, “it paradoxically also holds us forever in conversation.” (Cardinal Keeler)
    http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/how-mary-holds-christians-and-muslims-in-conversation.cfm

    • Ivan M

      Why don’t you go fight the Muzzies since you know so much.

  • Dreadnaught

    I see the pope has been foto-opped at Auschwitz. Why today when an official commemoration was held there some months back?
    Looks to me like the Dope is trying to highlight the fact that mass-murder in Europe is not a new phenomenon and seeking to draw attention from the growing anger against the Islamic mayhem currently being inflicted on the world.
    Not a word about the silence of the Vatican on the subject at the time or the assistance and facilities it gave to fleeing Nazis after the war.

    • Ivan M

      Its the Disneyland of Poland. They would blame him if he missed it.

      • Dreadnaught

        I don’t think you are wrong about the Disney aspect. Many Poles were complicit in turning over the Jewish people and grabbing whatever they could. They even went about turning over the ground in treasure hunting enterprises.
        Having said that a friend of mine was there just last week and hardened Harley biker-man that he is admitted that he was choking back the tears.
        It’s quite disturbing that it has become a money spinning tourist attraction. It is however on my bucket-list.

        • Ivan M

          You can do your crying at home I guess.

          • Dreadnaught

            I dont understand what you mean.

          • len

            I don`t understand hardly anything’ Ivan M ‘ says either…

          • Ivan M

            Why would anyone want to go a place like that anyway? Most people come out teary-eyed and stressed out. As for the Poles I believe that the Katyn Forest is of greater significance to them.

          • Dreadnaught

            I want to go, as being the age I am, I feel close affinity with the people as if they were of my own family or neighbours; or indeed myself.
            To see what they saw even though its only bricks and barbed wire, emphasises the enormous reality of the truth in an age of photoshopping and CGI.
            Stalin said, a life lost is a tragedy; a million lives lost is a statistic.
            If a monster like him can be whitewashed or if the image of Hitler is reduced to a pub comedy actor with a comb under his nose, anything that is only remembered as a statistical footnote in history, we do humanity a dangerous disservice.

          • Ivan M

            I see that I misunderstood. I thought bucket list meant a forget about it list.

          • Dreadnaught

            Its a bout kicking the ‘bucket’ Things to do before you die.

    • CliveM

      Oh I thought he was looking for some Pokemon Go monsters to add to his collection.

      • carl jacobs

        Ya know? You have to admit. The guy who invented that concept was an evil genius. Be afraid, because others will copy his idea.

        • CliveM

          My son is hooked. I console myself by reminding myself at least it’s outdoors.

          Wish I had thought of it, evil genius or no.

    • chrisH

      Not difficult Dreadnaught!
      1. He`s speaking at long-arranged Polish Youth events in Krakow.
      Krakow is near Osweicim, so it would make sense to pop in. See it as “being good to the environment” if that helps you.
      2. Clearly the world is there with its media, so your “commemoration” possibly didn`t make the news as you`d like to imagine..I don`t remember it, unless you`re referring to “Holocaust day” in late January…an annual event.
      3. The role of the Pope in WW2 is more complex that you`d imply…easy to scorn the errors but I`m sure it was not as simplistic as you make out.
      4. That said, you`re right on his willingness to excuse Islam.

      • Dreadnaught

        Yes you have been a great help.

    • dannybhoy

      These folk work to busy schedules arranged months and sometimes years in advance. Not making excuses, but that’s how it goes sometimes.
      Personally I doubt very much that the religious institutions have much influence on political issues. If anything they are fed the line from government and feed it to their flocks.
      In fact the Roman Catholic Church does a better job of standing up for Christian values than the Anglicans.
      Of course I don’t agree with all Catholic policies, but at least with them it doesn’t all come down to mushy compassion and non judgementalism.

      • Dreadnaught

        That’s a fair point Dan.

    • len

      The Vatican saw the Nazis as a better prospect than the Russians in preserving their religion.I think the Nazis spread their ideology and the loot from their crimes throughout South America and into Argentina….I wonder if many people are making the connection?.

      • Ivan M

        Strange I understand you perfectly.

      • Dreadnaught

        I am suddenly struck by the thought how the Allies left so many German/Nazis in positions of authority after the war. Kurt Waldheim is a prime example.
        The redeeming value of keeping the societal fabric of a defeated nation was obviously understood by those involved with rebuilding a chastened people and something that should have been paramount strategy in dealing with a post-Saddam Iraq.

        • Ivan M

          Were the Iraqis at war with the UK for you fellows to chasten them? You should have left him alone. It would not be any worse than what we have now

          • Dreadnaught

            I’m intrigued by your use of the word ‘you fellows’ as though I am part of a special group. I take you at your word without trying to categorise you. It would be fair if you offered me the same privilege.
            It would not be any worse than what we have now

          • Ivan M

            Be intrigued no more. It is an indication of my limitations of expression. For your satisfaction read you fellows as the ragingly stupid British government of that time, instead.

          • Dreadnaught

            Are you not British?

          • Ivan M

            Indian as in curry.

          • Dreadnaught

            That’s fair enough Ivan, its easy to think all who comment here are British unless they make known at the time. Are you based in India?

          • Ivan M

            I have lived most of my life in Singapore although born in India where I do have relations and friends.

          • Dreadnaught

            Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn’t being nosey. My old man was PoW in Singapore in WW2 much a has changed since then – he would be amazed if he could see it now.

          • Ivan M

            If you are down here, I’ll show you around. There is a small chapel dedicated to the memory of the POWs at Changi which is within shouting distance of the airport.

          • Dreadnaught

            Thanks for the kind offer but I did visit the Chapel and indeed his route from Singapore through Malaya, Thailand after he died at 91 in 2001.

          • Ivan M

            Your father had indeed suffered.

          • carl jacobs

            That would the Saddam Hussein who started two wars of conquest inside a decade? The Saddam Hussein who concluded his mistake in 1990 was not waiting until he had nuclear weapons? The Saddam Hussein who was seeking to establish himself as Middle East nuclear hegemon? That’s the guy we should have left alone?

            Well, I suppose. If you want him Finlandizing or outright occupying the Gulf Oil states. If you are willing to have the Iraqi army on the east bank of the Jordan River. Or maybe tolerate an Israeli preemptive strike. What’s a small nuclear war in the Middle East?

            Oh, but wait. The American Army could have stopped all that by sitting forever in the desert to deter Saddam. We do it for Korea. Why not the Middle East. Sure that would make it a giant fixed target for Al Qaida. A small price to pay for world security. I’m sure our allies would have been right behind us. Way behind us.

          • Ivan M

            Saddam from the balance of power view was a counterweight to Iran. The Saudis were against his removal and from their point of view he was needed for balance favouring the Sunni side. In a way the Americans owed them and when they could not deliver the Saudis felt justified in creating the ISIS. The Iranians took advantage of this in extending the Shia sphere. The fight around Basra and Baghdad that took the lives of the majority of US and UK dead were directed from or at least had the blessings of Iran. They had a relatively cheap victory over an Iraq that they could only fight to a standstill in 1980-88, thanks to US led behemoth thunder-running over Iraq. Now with the Saudis looking to retrieve something from the fiasco, the brainiacs in the US thought it would be a good idea to put the Syria in play. And once again find the advantage goes to Iran. The Book of Eccliasticus has something to say about this.

          • carl jacobs

            None of that is responsive to anything I said.

            It’s true the US would have been wiser to hand over Iraq to a compliant Iraqi General. But at the time the politics wouldn’t allow it. And whatever the Saudis wanted, it was always predicated on American protection.

            Now I realize the world would be much simpler for everyone but the US (and the Israelis) if the US had just accepted the indefinite responsibility of containing Iraq so everyone else could ignore the problem. Funny how that option didn’t appeal to the US.

          • Ivan M

            Well he didn’t have nuclear weapons that’s for sure.

          • carl jacobs

            Of course he didn’t. That was the whole point. You can’t fight a preemptive war after the fact.

            Once he acquired them, he would have been invulnerable to attack. That was why the war was fought before he could get his hands on them.

        • len

          I suppose the theory was leaving the culprits to clean up some of the mess they had created?

          • Dreadnaught

            Or we would have seen Russia extend its buffer zone or even further in it’s aspiration to globalise Stalin style Communism,

        • GreyhoundFancier

          Somewhat like leaving Hirohito in place in Japan.

    • Albert

      Why to do? He’s in Poland for World Youth Day. That’s been booked for a couple of years at least. No conspiracy theory needed.

      • Dreadnaught

        I conceded the point lower down this thread.

        • Albert

          Sorry, I was reading the thread in order and didn’t see that.

  • bockerglory

    Mmmm…

    My wise grandfather told me that any religion that advocates killing those that stop believing (apostates) is a cult.

    He also told me that how civilised a society is could be determined by how they treated their women.

    He was no feminist but knew polygamy and death for apostasy was a sign of savage barbarism.

    • Dreadnaught

      Indeed a wise man.

      I think it would be a good idea if we followed Japan and made a Bank Holiday Also known as Seniors’ Day or Respect of the Aged Day, or as it is known there as Keiro no Hi. They established it as a national holiday in 1966 to express respect for the elders in the community, and to recognise and thank them for their contributions to society and last but not least, celebrate their long lives.

      It seems so odd that the wisdom of the elders is respected in the most basic societal groups but in the West we shut the oldies away and honour the capricious youth culture instead.
      All Brexiteers according to the Millennials, sold out their sparkling future without considering that the same group paid with their lives to ensure the freedoms that they take for granted.

    • Cressida de Nova

      How could anyone not know that. Yet governments took none of it into account when formulating such dangerous reckless immigration policy. I wish someone could explain to me how and why that happened.

      • The Explorer

        Peter Hitchens takes the view that the British liberal elite loathed Britain as it was, and wanted to turn it into somewhere else. And, through immigration, the British liberal elite succeeded.

        • dannybhoy

          I do agree there is an element of self loathing in our establishment which has infected so much of our national life.

        • Cressida de Nova

          To deliberately sabotage and endanger the culture and values of your own countrymen is very perverted.It is hard to believe. That or they were completely stupid.

          • The Explorer

          • Cressida de Nova

            Thank you for this. I agree with Hitchen’s conclusion that we are not governed by very intelligent people.

      • dannybhoy

        And why the feminists and LGBT militants haven’t kicked up a fuss.

        • Cressida de Nova

          Well maybe anything rather than join forces with those who uphold Christian ethic. But that does not make any sense either when women and LGBT persons are oppressed and persecuted under their belief system.

  • Brad of the North

    I’ve read down the posts, many of which seem not to address the Archbishop’s main point. I am tempted to go further than he does in sounding the alarm about Wahhabi Islam; Islam in ALL its forms is a threat to the values certainly of the post-Enlightenment West, and I believe of mainstream Christianity too. Islam does not believe unconditionally in free inquiry; it cannot countenance a critical approach to its “holy” book, nor debate the virtues or otherwise of its Prophet. I read him as a delusional, lecherous thug, but there is no public forum in which I could even hint at such an inflammatory view. Islam offers no new insights, no new spiritual principle, talks a lot of garbage about jinns; its paradise is a teenage boy’s pornographic fantasy, its hell (where clearly I am bound) is going to really, REALLY torment you, it’s far crueller than Christianity’s so there. I know and respect a number of Muslim colleagues, but I am deeply concerned that a) I think their religion, as an intellectual system, is rotten to the core and b) that there is no possible context in which I could say that. I am no great fan of the Papacy, but in this context I would back Benedict XVI against Francis.

    • b.a. freeman

      just as a lot of folks i know who claim to be christian would do better to join a country club, because their version of christianity is little more than a social club, so there are muslims who would do better to join a social organization aligned with their interests, because they have no idea what their religion really posits.

      great post!