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Politicians

Nigel Farage slams Jesus for his “negative” Christmas message

Former Ukip leader Nigel Farage has slammed Jesus for his “negative” Christmas message.

The Son of God said the world is full of wolves in sheep’s clothing, not to mention quite a few hypocrites, blind fools, whited sepulchres and broods of vipers.

Nigel Farage hit out at Jesus after the Church boss said he had come not to bring peace, but a sword, and to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

“A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household,” Jesus said.

While he did not mention Ukip directly, a furious former Ukip boss immediately hit back, urging supporters to “ignore all negative messages” from the head of the Church.

In his sermon, delivered robustly in the Temple, Jesus said there was a lot of uncertainty at a time when people are putting their trust in treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. People should put their trust in “heavenly treasure”, he said.

But Mr Farage, who stood down as Ukip leader in November, took to Twitter to say: “Merry Christmas. Ignore all negative messages from Jesus and have a great day!”

  • chefofsinners

    Jesus said these things were inevitable consequences of living righteously. Justin seems to think they were avoidable if only we had voted the ‘right’ way.

    • Anton

      His comments were sufficiently general as to have plausible deniability. (Justin Case?)

      • CliveM

        To be honest some of the reactions to what was said, smackjs of excessive sensitivity.

  • maigemu

    I think many readers will not recognise fake news, especially remoaners and antiUKIPers.

  • Your Grace is in error. Farage took issue with ++Justin, not Jesus. And, since you have taken issue with ++Justin in the past, declaring him to be in error on certain matters (like conflating a vote to leave the EU with racism) I think we can assume that you do not hold a view that would say that the ABC is Christ’s infallible messenger on earth. Therefore I think we can also assume that anyone can criticise ++Justin if they believe him to be in error.
    Now, whether Farage is in error on what he criticises is up for debate. But we can be sure that he is entitled to do the criticising and that said criticism is not aimed anywhere else other than ++Justin.

    • Anton

      Stick to darts!

      • Stick to being crushed between your car and a gate. Yes, THAT is how unfunny and unoriginal your comment is! But then, if you can’t engage with the arguments made it is hardly surprising!

        • Anton

          And a Happy Christmas to you too!

    • William Lewis

      You make some good points Phil but I think that our Nige’s facile sideswipe at the AoC’s words was misguided and needs to be countered. HG is an aficionado of the satirical genre and has countered accordingly. Whilst the pessimism and sour grapes of some remoaners should be called out for what it is, let’s not pretend that the garden is, or will always be, rosy.

      • Agreed, but His Grace makes the key error of conflating Jesus and ++Justin, which is where I take issue with him. If he had stuck to critiquing what was actually said, whether satirically or otherwise, then no problem. However, the conflation is not satire.

        • Anton

          I think you mean it’s bad satire (in your opinion).

          • No, it’s not satire. Saying person a criticises person b when actually they criticised person c is not satire. Add in the detail that person b happens to be infallible, omniscient and omnipresent (and thus beyond criticism) and you have the appearance of an attempt to silence dissent with authority that person c (Welby) does not have and suggests that they are not to be criticised, when that is far from the case.

          • Anton

            Stick to darts.

          • Stick to dancing with Ann Widdecombe

          • carl jacobs

            Good grief. How long have you read this webblog? Farage focuses on the temporal and thus overlooks the very obvious eternal message in the theological content. That is the point of the satire.

          • Martin

            Carl

            Welby’s pronouncements are eternal messages?

          • carl jacobs

            Can you find fault with what he said, as opposed to what he omitted?

          • Martin

            Carl

            Isn’t the omission the important part?

            But, aside from that, this passage is clearly wrong:

            “God has no glory apart from Jesus, and Jesus is the source of all that is truly glorious in life.”

            Since God has glory apart from our salvation, for is not God the cause of all that is?

          • carl jacobs

            Mangled, I agree. But it can be read charitably.

          • Without Christ we’d all end up in Hell.

          • Simon Platt

            I agree but, that given, is it not unthinkable that God would not become Man to prevent that?

          • Of course, He is Love. But Jack’s point is that without Christ no man could glorify God.

          • Martin

            HJ

            And that is where a great many, even of us, will end up anyway. But it still doesn’t mean that God’s only glory is in our salvation. God is glorious in and of Himself, Jesus is part of that and the salvation of His people adds to His glory.

        • William Lewis

          Perhaps the satire was as facile as Nige’s original tweet but the conflation of the AoC and Jesus was undoubtedly a satirical device.

          • I would throw water on your use of the word “undoubtedly”

          • William Lewis

            I am not sure why. You have already pointed out that HG has publicly criticised the AoC in the past. We ALL strive to be Christ-like and yet ALL fall short of the glory of God. Neither HG nor the AoC would dissent from this, I think.

            Anyway, a happy boxing day to you, Phil.

      • CliveM

        Did Farage actually read the words?

        • William Lewis

          A good question, Clive.

          • CliveM

            I suspect not. But there is ‘previous’ between the two of them.

          • William Lewis

            Yes. I think you are right. There is more to this than what the AoC actually said.

  • Judas was Paid

    I think His Grace has been too heavy with the Malmsey Wine. This tripe is below his normal standards.

  • Jon Sorensen

    Archbishop Cranmer might think that Archbishop of Canterbury is now Jesus.

    Archbishop Cranmer quoted Mr Farage:
    “Merry Christmas. Ignore all negative messages from Jesus and have a great day!”

    What Mr Farage actually wrote:
    “Merry Christmas. Ignore all negative messages from Archbishop of Canterbury and have a great day!”

    Or is this another fake news day?

    • Med Jumper

      The Marxist of Canterbury is an Archbishopin name only

    • Anton

      It’s called satire.

      • Judas was Paid

        Indeed. I agree that the hierarchy of the Church is just that, a poor satire of its former self.

      • Grumpy

        The lead-footed variety.

      • carl jacobs

        English is not his first language.

        • Anton

          His English is better than I am in my next best language. On the other hand I don’t frequent its blogs.

          • CliveM

            I’m not sure Jon is all he claims to be.

        • It’s not your first language either but we don’t hold that against you.

          • CliveM

            Oh dear, LOL, sorry Carl but that was funny!

    • carl jacobs

      And now it’s time for Statements of the Obvious by Jon Sorensen.

      Archbishop Cranmer quoted Mr Farage:
      “Merry Christmas. Ignore all negative messages from Jesus and have a great day!”

      What Mr Farage actually wrote:
      “Merry Christmas. Ignore all negative messages from Archbishop of Canterbury and have a great day!”

      Tomorrow, Jon will tell us that water is still wet.

      • 1642again

        And how is that adding to the discussion other than as a feeble personal insult.

        • carl jacobs

          It’s not a “feeble insult”. It’s (ironically enough) a statement of the obvious. Everyone who read the OP knew that. That substitution was the vehicle that carried the satire. We didn’t need to have him point it out as if it was some stunning revelation.

          And if you knew anything about Jon Sorensen, you wouldn’t be so quick to upvote him.

          • 1642again

            I know nothing of him but agreed with his post, hence the uptick.

          • carl jacobs

            Jon comes with a context. This isn’t the first time he has shot from the hip …

            Or is this another fake news day?

            … and made a false accusation as a result. Think and learn before you mindlessly agree.

          • 1642again

            Please don’t patronise me. The statement he made was one with which I agreed.

          • carl jacobs

            In the first place, you are the one who accused me of ad hominem and did so without knowledge. So heal yourself, physician.

            In the second place, I’m not patronizing you. I am correcting you. The accusation Jon Sorensen made in that post was false, and you affirmed it. He made exactly the same accusation not one week ago and was forced to retract it having shown himself to be the fool. Here is what he said.

            Archbishop Cranmer seems to be in a business to provide fake news for clicks

            My emphasis. Here is the link.

            http://archbishopcranmer.com/sacked-bell-ringers-york-minster/

            Go read it for yourself.

          • 1642again

            There you go again. You called him in effect a fool and stater of the obvious in response to his first post. That’s ad hom. Then you started on me. You are clearly not aware of the tone of your posts and the fact that you are frequently extremely patronising and convey the general impression of arrogance I’m afraid. I rarely comment on here, despite having long been a reader, simply because of the unpleasant and unchristian tone of some of the more prolix commentators such as yourself.

            One of the temptations of all web sites that seek to derive income from advertising is to go fishing with clickbait and fake news articles to cause a reaction. This has helped ruin the Telegraph on line and is now doing the same to the Spectator. A fair minded person reading this article might wonder if Cranmer is yielding to similar temptation.

          • William Lewis

            I’m sorry but anyone who took the trouble to read the article and follow the links, fair minded or not, could not possibly conclude that this is an attempt to fake some news. Even if you knew nothing of this site’s methods, memes and modes. One can only conclude that your “fair minded person” is not the sharpest tool in the box.

          • 1642again

            Fake news includes a lot more than just outright lies, but an attempt to incite a response. This was clearly an attempted parody to incite such a response from readers and in that it has succeeded. Further, why should anybody have to follow links to other things provided by commentators to understand the article – that in itself suggests the article has failed?

            And now you are insulting the intelligence of anyone who rose to the bait on an issue about which very many feel strongly.

          • William Lewis

            Why should an article not use links as a part of its message and who made you the arbiter of failed articles?

            The links are clear and repeated. Feel free to follow them or not just don’t cry foul when someone points out that you have missed an important part of the message.

          • 1642again

            Oh! The condescension!

          • William Lewis

            Hey. You’ve clearly missed an important part of the article and made some unsubstantiated allegations as a result. Don’t blame me if I over-egg an explanation.

          • 1642again

            It was a feeble article designed to strike a nerve. Many people pointed this out and have been subjected to personal and sneering criticism as a result, but judging by the upticks they are in a large majority of opinion on here.

            I see it as a metaphor for the struggle between the establishment conformist church and the true church.

            “By their fruits you will know them”. The establishment church is signally barren. I pray for the true inner church to cast it aside and renew the people’s faith. Make your choice.

          • CliveM

            Majority? Hmm when did that matter.

          • 1642again

            June 22nd and November 10th?

          • CliveM

            November10th? i’m told Trump is 3m votes behind.

          • 1642again

            And in the Presidency. After all UKIP got 4 million votes and 1 MP, the SNP over 50 with under 1.5 million. You play by the rules of the game.

          • CliveM

            Thats not being disputed. Most opinion polls show a majority for euthanasia, do we simply roll over and say “Well ths that’s the majority”?

          • 1642again

            That’s democracy.

          • CliveM

            But if the majority goes against Gods word, what is our response?

          • 1642again

            Argue and advocate within the law. Similar to abortion which in my book is more indefensible than euthanasia. BTW don’t here much abortion about mass murder, sorry on demand abortion, these days.

          • CliveM

            Well if you stick to this blog you’ll hear about it.

            But the fact the majority support it, doesn’t change Gods view on it.

            And that’s what matters.

          • 1642again

            Agree with that, but fortunately Jesus himself ruled out theocracies.

          • William Lewis

            I choose to ignore your false dichotomy and unsubstantiated, and somewhat hysterical, accusations.

          • 1642again

            Thank you for conceding.

          • carl jacobs

            You called him in effect a fool

            No, my post simply pointed out that he stated the obvious like it was some profound revelation. It wasn’t. All it did was allow him to make a false accusation – the same false accusation he made seven days ago. I knew instantly that the OP was parody. But then I have been a part of this board for six years and not nine hours. I’ve seen it before.

            I explicitly said Jon made a fool out of himself on the thread I posted – which you obviously didn’t read. That’s not a moral judgment. That’s an objective fact. Go read what he wrote on that thread and then tell me I am wrong. If you knew anything about Jon Sorensen – which you have admitted you don’t – you would understand the implication behind his admission that he was wrong. You have never chased him around numerous rabbit warrens as he avoids doing just that. And yet you say you are a long time reader. How can you be a long time reader and yet know nothing about Jon Sorensen?

            You are clearly not aware of the tone of your posts

            I am very much aware of the tone of my posts. And I generally don’t pay any attention to the opinion of people I don’t know. I don’t know you. There are people on this board I know and respect. If they rebuke me, I will listen. But who are you?

            In your very first post, you said …

            If Cranmer has gone this way now it will perish too

            Is this your Christian judgment? Because your complaint had nothing to do with point of the OP. It simply seemed to be a convenient starting point for an off-topic rant about a subject that Cranmer had not addressed.

            You are the one judging here. You have done so from your first post and without any knowledge. I merely pointed it out.

          • 1642again

            I have read this site from its early days when it was a foil to the vanities and obsessions of the establishment church. If that is changing it will die. The establishment church is leading a church I love to disaster and that is why I have chosen today to make my views known. It seems many agree with me but if the the Pharasaical apologists of the establishment church attack me, then fine. I am honoured by my opponents.

            I agreed with a single post he made and defended it. You don’t seem be able to handle it. I have pointed out your tone to you and you clearly don’t care. Fine. You judge yourself.

          • CliveM

            Wow, so you believe the only reason someone would disagree with you is because they are Pharisaical?

            Big opinion of yourself. Why can’t it be they simply have a different view?

          • 1642again

            They can, but when they condescend and insult they mark themselves out as more than honest differences of opinion. Please review how this clash started.

          • CliveM

            1642

            When you’ve tried to engage Jon a few times and experienced his slippery dishonesty you’ll understand. You’ll find he doesn’t even admit to what he has said.

          • 1642again

            You may well be right, perhaps I will find out in time. But I always try to comment on the post in front of me, not what I believe the person to be.

          • CliveM

            Well that’s not unreasonable. However for those of us who have engaged with him for a while, we unfortunately have a context.

          • carl jacobs

            You approved of a false accusation. Does that mean nothing to you?

            And you didn’t answer my question. How is that you have read this sight from its early days and yet … what were your exact words about Jon …

            I know nothing of him but agreed with his post, hence the uptick.

            How do you reconcile those two statements?

          • 1642again

            Because I don’t read everything obsessively and rarely the comments. And it is not the astringent commenting site it was and so I read it less than I did. Not everyone shares,your obsession.

      • Anton

        He won’t tell us that it’s been walked upon, though.

  • I’m from Barcelona

    Another spectacular Fall from Grace.

  • Med Jumper

    #FakeNews

  • foxoles

    What a clumsy piece of attempted satire. #fakenews. What on earth are you trying to say?

    Farage is a lot more Christian than Welby imo. The modern C of E has been hollowed out from within, to the point where it is now no more than a political refuge for smug, virtue-signalling lefties who are so biased they obsess about the mote in someone else’s eye while they cannot even see the beam in their own. (Bet Farage would get that biblical reference – not sure Welby would).

  • M-dit

    Contrary to the Bish I think certain events in 2016 proved that our values are in the right place.

  • 1642again

    Terrible, feeble parody. How long has it been since we saw an Archbishop forcefully proclaim the exclusivity of Christianity for salvation, that other religions are at best in innocent error and at worst of Satanic inspiration, or protest forcefully at the secularising and Islamicising processes underway in the UK and the extermination of Christians by the ten thousand in foreign countries?

    But no, they would rather advocate a vague inoffensive conformist establishment deism to maintain their comfortable position within the corridors of influence and attack those who speak for the ongoing Christian nature of the UK.

    As a supporter of the Barnabas Fund I was horrified to read how certain figures within the CoE were collaborating with Islamicists to undermine its work.

    As a CoE member who helps finance two small rural churches which get no help from the CoE hierarchy I have nothing but contempt for the higher echelons of the church and all too many other congregants share this attitude.

    If Cranmer has gone this way now it will perish too. The COE will be reborn from the roots when the hierarchy has collapsed the superstructure because the roots are secured in the True Faith of Christ.

    • foxoles

      Well said.

    • Anton

      I might be able to answer your first question. The then Archbishop of Canterbury, Edward White Benson, declined an invitation to attend the 1893 “Parliament of the World’s Religions” in Chicago, saying that “The difficulties which I myself feel are not questions of distance or convenience, but rest on the fact that the Christian religion is the one religion.”

      • 1642again

        Thank you Anton. How things have changed.

    • David

      Well said 1642again. Your stance is shared by me, a conservative C of E Lay Minister. I retain enormous respect for the small but significant number of humble full time vicars who still preach the full gospel of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the only path to The Father.
      But I have no confidence whatsoever in the feeble liberal hierarchy of the Church, which increasingly refuses to preach the full gospel of salvation through repentance and faith, delivering only a wishy washy social gospel, intermixed with politically based messages.
      Christianity will survive and indeed flourish again in these islands, despite the shameful antics of the bishops and liberal doubters.

      • 1642again

        Thank you David. There are huge numbers of lapsed Christians, even atheists, who would respond enthusiastically if the Church leadership gave real courageous leadership on the subject of Islam and the consequences of today’s multicultural consumer society. But they won’t get it because the leadership are establishment place-men and women who betray Christ, the faith and their potential congregation at every opportunity.

        I sometimes ask myself how many of our current Bishops would choose death if given the choice required by ISIS of Iraqi Christians. Very few I suspect.

        • CliveM

          Well until any of us are put in that situation and “pass the test” (as it where) its possibly better not to judge.

          Talk is easy.

          • 1642again

            Given that most of them don’t seem to be able to state the 39 Articles without blushing my conclusions are pretty easy to arrive at.

          • CliveM

            I don’t believe martyrdom has much correlation with being able to recite the 39 article’s.

          • 1642again

            You well understand the point I am making.

          • Merchantman

            We must as a cloud of witnesses take these ongoing martyrdoms completely to heart. I am appalled the leadership doesn’t take this as the writing on the wall. It’s plain for all to see and yet it’s forgotten a week later. Shame and more damn shame. It’s bad to be blind; but worse to be blind, deaf and dumb.
            There I go; maybe that’s in part what ++ Welby is worried about.

        • David

          Agreed.

        • Anton

          There are plenty of congregations outside the CoE whose leaders understand what is going on.

          • 1642again

            Agreed, and within as well. The True Church is in all Trinitarian denominations but is not contiguous with any.

          • Anton

            Most certainly (and something i’d expect you to understand given your avatar!) David above and I have shared laments here about how there is plenty of faith in the CoE but the higher you go, the worse the apostasy. I’ve jumped ship; I think he hasn’t, and it is a purely private decision for any individual.

    • carl jacobs

      Terrible, feeble parody.

      Your complaint has nothing to do with the point of the parody. Delete the quoted line and your post still holds together quite nicely. If you are going to attack Cranmer, at least attack him for what he said.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Well said 1642. I too have found the Archbishop and most of his bishops to be a big disappointment when it comes to supporting grass roots Christians either at hone or abroad. They preach a pseudo-gospel that ignores the route to salvation and do not even like talking about sin, especially of a sexual nature. There is a slight irony that Nigel Farage, who as far as I know does not label himself a Christian, speaks out in defence of Christianity and Judaeo Christian values in this country more than the combined efforts of Welby and his left-wing bishops.

      • 1642again

        Well it was always notable that the previous Chief Rabbi was a more outspoken defender of Christianity than any of our senior clergy other than Michael Nazir-Ali.

    • Coniston

      Agree with all you say; I am also a supporter of Barnabas Fund. BUT did the brief article have to be below a picture of Christ looking like a dying duck in a thunderstorm? That sort of misplaced Victorian piety must have turned many, many people away from Christianity.

  • guardiancouncil

    Painstakingly right-on nonsense. The Bish seems to be desperate for a good smear – but why? What’s driving him so mad? Why is he so discontented? Must be something wrong with his faith – cracks that cannot be papered over any longer like ever more empty pews and people turning away from the CoE? Well, well, well what a pity! Why not blame Putin, Trump and Farage, eh, Bish?

    Oh and by the way: if the Bish is against “putting trust in treasures” I shall give him the details of my checking account. By Bish, enjoy your expendability!

  • Anton

    Not called Boxing Day for nothing, eh?

  • Don Benson

    I think our uncertainty over whether this is a parody or is actually to be taken seriously highlights how foolish it has been for an Archbishop of Canterbury publicly to embrace political positions, and such disputable ones at that. He has undermined his own message. We can no longer assume he is speaking for his church and about eternal truths; instead we automatically read between the lines, searching for the politics (secular politics or church politics). Even his Christmas message now comes across as ambiguous, whether or not it was meant to be; what could be more sad, and more dispiriting for Christians?

    New year’s resolution: stick to the brief.

    • Merchantman

      Yes but for myself I was uplifted by Her Majesty’s ( apologies to Dame Barchester although that may come later this week; Honours you understand) bold declaration of Faith.

    • Dominic Stockford

      He should stick to preaching the Gospel, that is, expounding the Scriptures.

      • CliveM

        I don’t think anything he said iis contrary to scripture.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      I’m afraid Welby is something of an expert at being vague and confusing. Granted he did vote against same sex marriage but then proceeded to denounce much of his flock as homophobic. He is slow to speak up for Christians whether at home or abroad but is happy to fraternise with muslim hate preachers…
      http://archbishopcranmer.com/why-is-it-great-to-welcome-muslim-hate-preachers-to-lambeth-palace/
      . His agenda often seems more in line with that of the liberal left than the Gospels.

  • Inspector General

    “It came to pass that the bearded Cranmer raised his staff and cursed the prophet Farage in the name of the Lord. But lo, a party of internet angels descended upon his blog and drew their swords. Where is he, this Cranmer, cried the leader, for he is to be turned into a pillar of shi, well, salt we’ll settle for. He is not here, he has risen and fled the scene his followers said.”

  • CliveM

    I wonder how many of those critical of the AofC Christmas message have actually read it, rather than the newspaper reports of it? For those who haven’t its probably worth the effort to find out what was actually said and then understand the crassness of Farages comments. Because it is clear that either he hasn’t or if he has, he has chosen to deliberately misrepresent it.

    His Graces satire seems a gentle one to me.

    • David

      Farage’s comments on Welby’s Christmas message can only be understood in the context of Justin’s support for Remain before the referendum. Like Farage I am an Anglican and committed Brexiteer. The unwise interference from the politically naive two primates, felt to me like a stab in the back, and no doubt Farage felt it far more acutely than I did. This is what this is really about, not the exact words of the Christmas message.

  • David

    This is a most feeble and disappointing, failed attempt at humour. If worthwhile news was slow, better to have remained silent. Over the years I have come to expect and enjoy a higher standard from this blog.
    The two primates of England acted disloyally, as tools for the shallow liberal political establishment of this country, that puts the interests of faceless, irresponsible, greedy corporate globalists, who seek ever cheaper imported labour, regardless of the costs in increasing social tensions and the endless fragmentation of our communities, above that of achieving a fair society at ease with itself and its Christian heritage, if not practice. Their indifference and disdain towards the sufferings of the working classes, and the dilution of our unique British heritage of Common Law, based upon our most excellent constitution was most shocking. Do these grand bishops have no sense of justice ?
    In sharp contrast to the blundering disloyalty of our primates I had the privilege to listen to a far more theologically sound, apolitical, neutral and balanced sermon on the referendum, delivered by a mere local humble vicar, for whom I have the greatest respect. Needless to say it is thoughtful men like him, humble servants of Christ, that fill their churches because they preach an undiluted gospel message. Within the C of E the true disciples are found at the bottom, not the top of the organisation.
    Although my feelings are but vanity, it is deeply unpleasant for me, as a loyal volunteer worker and Lay Minister for churches in the C of E, who makes a useful financial contribution, to be so lectured at, with badly thought through un-researched and unsubstantiated sheer political naivety, all at direct odds with my decade of street campaigning and working towards the historic referendum.

    • Merchantman

      Well done David. It really is miraculous to find the grassroots are a fuller font of wisdom and true faith than those in authority and that is what the Top is now struggling to come to terms with.
      Jesus always had trouble with the lawyers and priests so its- plus ca change. Nobody likes to be found out and if they are in authority the overreaction is invariably ten times worse. Like start locking people up and telling porkys.
      I am puzzled though that the two ++ have fallen for it.

      • 1642again

        Do you really think our elite would allow a fire breathing Christian of uncompromising theology to become an Archbishop?

        • Merchantman

          Even His Original Grace had his wobbles; offering his right hand to the flames for its misquoting of His Grace’s mind.

          • 1642again

            True, but at the death he was true.

          • Anton

            Made in Cambridge, burnt in Oxford…

    • 1642again

      Super post!

      In our Lord’s incarnation on earth the Temple and priests rejected him with contempt for mixing with the base born, the tax collectors, fishermen, shepherds, prostitutes an similar. He was humbly born for reason. He even found a warmer welcome among some of the occupying Romans than from his own clerical leadership.

      So on Brexit, we had the might of the British, global and financial establishments, with the upper clergy, arrayed against a rag bag of private individuals (“the Left Behinds”) and minor organisations. It’s pretty clear to me where Jesus’ sympathies would lie.

      Most of the Christians I know, humble people of course, real vicars of sound theology, were pro-Brexit.

      • Judas was Paid

        Rather like the Jews of old, we wanted our country back. Rather like the exiled Jews of these last twenty centuries, we wanted our country back. It is a wholly decent and holy desire.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Many faithful preachers of the Gospel do so to very few. The churches empty precisely because they are faithful.

      • David

        In my experience the faithful preachers of the full gospel fill their churches.

        • Dominic Stockford

          Not mine. Of the faithful preachers in the area in which I also pastor only one has a full church building.

          • David

            OK.

          • Old Nick

            “We are the sweet selected few
            The rest of you are damned.
            There’s lots of room in Hell for you
            We don’t want Heaven crammed.”

    • Old Nick

      “unique British heritage of Common Law”: surely you mean Anglo-Welsh. Scotland’s is a Roman Law system

      • David

        It’s a fair cop, guv !

      • bluedog

        British in this instance would have to include Ireland.

        • Old Nick

          True, O King, live for ever.

  • len

    The Church cannot be Salt and Light and Politically Correct .So the Church must choose whom it will follow.
    To promote a social Gospel instead of a full Gospel is ‘a cop out’ and will only slightly prolong the Church being entirely trampled underfoot by secular forces.

  • carl jacobs

    Btw. The AoCs message wasn’t a bad message as it stood but it did lack any mention of the Gospel. Sin and redemption didn’t figure. That makes it a truncated messagw with the most important part left out.

    • Martin

      Carl

      Sounds par for the course then.

      • carl jacobs

        It was orthodox as far as it went. So it could have been worse.

        • Martin

          Carl

          Having now read it, it was a worldly message, speaking of salvation but giving no indication of how to obtain it. It causes me to ask if he knows what salvation is.

          • carl jacobs

            You are judging him for what he didn’t say on the assumption that you know why he didn’t say it. I agree with you that it is incomplete, but it is sound as far as it goes.

          • Martin

            Carl

            Can that which omits truth be sound?

          • carl jacobs

            By definition, every message cannot contain the entire truth.

          • Martin

            Carl

            But to omit what ones is saved from and how seems to be somewhat excessive.

          • carl jacobs

            I agree. It’s a serious fault.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Especially on the day when we remember the one born who came to bring that salvation. Surely this MUST be the one day of the year when every Christian preacher speaks if salvation through Christ alone?

          • William Lewis

            Have you asked yourself whether the AoC was preaching or teaching? If the latter (which seems obvious to me) then there is not always the need to teach on salvation. We are called to be in the world but not of the world and for the AoC to speak to his flock about the world, and our involvement with it, seems entirely apposite to me.

          • Martin

            William

            Surely preaching is teaching. And I imagine the AoC had a wider audience in view than his flock, some of whom also need to hear the gospel.

      • Anton

        I’ve upticked that. (In the unlikely event that anybody is interested, I upticked the comment below referring to Welby as the “Marxist of Canterbury” by accident.)

    • foxoles

      Of course it lacked any mention of the Gospels. He is far more interested in politics.

    • Martin

      Carl

      It was a worldly message speaking of salvation but not revealing it,

    • William Lewis

      It seems to me that the AoC was teaching rather than preaching. Does one need to teach on redemption to those already saved?

      • Judas was Paid

        The population of Britain is already saved?

        • William Lewis

          Alas, no. Nor will they ever be delivered by a Christmas message, were it from Christ Himself.

          • Judas was Paid

            I do not disagree, but that is no reason not to be faithful to the Charge.

          • William Lewis

            If you wish to be a witness as to the AoCs faithlessness then that is your business. I can find nothing in his Christmas sermon to that effect.

          • Judas was Paid

            Well, at least he has one satisfied customer.

  • IrishNeanderthal

    Does anyone here have a link to the text of the AoC’s speech?

    Regarding Farage, I wouldn’t touch him even with a 4 Saxon yard pole ever since he said he would “do a deal with the Devil” to get us out of the EU. I know Churchill used similar terminology when referring to the alliance with Stalin during WW2, but I understand that was post hoc, and one could not put a literal meaning on it.

    • Anton

      Perhaps Farage didn’t mean it literally.

      • IrishNeanderthal

        Most likely he didn’t, but it was still abominably careless. You might like this, in regard to your “Parliament” comment of 3 hours ago:

        From G.K.Chesterton, The Everlasting Man,
        Part II
        On the Man Called Christ

        I. The God in the Cave

        The Theosophists build a pantheon; but it is only a pantheon for pantheists. They call a Parliament of Religions as a reunion of all the peoples; but it is only a reunion of all the prigs. Yet exactly such a pantheon had been set up two thousand years before by the shores of the Mediterranean; and Christians were invited to set up the image of Jesus side by side with the image of Jupiter, of Mithras, of Osiris, of Atys, or of Ammon. It was the refusal of the Christians that was the turning-point of history. If the Christians had accepted, they and the whole world would have certainly, in a grotesque but exact metaphor, gone to pot. They would all have been boiled down to one lukewarm liquid in that great pot of cosmopolitan corruption in which all the other myths and mysteries were already melting. It was an awful and an appalling escape. Nobody understands the nature of the Church, or the ringing note of the creed descending from antiquity, who does not realise that the whole world once very nearly died of broadmindedness and the brotherhood of all religions.

        • Anton

          Exactly so. I got that quote from Archbishop Benson from an excellent book about the New Age movement, The Serpent and the Cross by Alan Morrison. I wouldn’t expect Catholics to like it much but it is still the best book I know on its subject. I have wept for what Alan Morrison has since become, for he came out of the New Age and went back in again, having pastored congregations in between. If anybody else knows who I mean, please also pray for him.

      • Judas was Paid

        It is impossible to mean it literally as despite Goethe, I am not aware of any person within my circle who has managed to do a deal with old Singed Whiskers.

        • 1642again

          Mohammed perhaps?

          • Judas was Paid

            You might be on to something.

    • Anton
    • Royinsouthwest

      Do you like boring political speeches devoid of metaphors, analogies and other figures of speech?

  • Martin

    Oh dear, committing idolatry again your Grace?

    • Anton

      Committing satire, surely.

      • foxoles

        “Attempting”. And failing.

      • Martin

        Anton

        I was referring to the picture of Jesus.

        • So nativity scenes are out. How dull.

          • Martin

            HJ

            Well, if you go for idolatry rather than Christianity you’ve got to have something to liven it up, I suppose.

        • Dominic Stockford

          And isn’t that the mormon picture?

          • Martin

            Dominic

            I bow to your superior knowledge.

  • Samuel

    Dudes

    Suggestion: Farage and Welby could settle their differences down the pub over a fag and a pint…. Welby may even remember the parable of “the good Brexiter”….

    • William Lewis

      Dude. There is more wisdom here than in many other utterances.

      • Samuel

        Dude,

        Indeed .although I forgot my class sensitivities here and did just think that a fag and a pint might be too working class for a prince of the church [although having watched “Grantchester” as my sis Ruth said she like it , ‘dishy’ vicar apparently , it seems traditional vicars did smoke and drink beer] . So maybe it would have to be a cigar and brandy …… (nothing’s like a good Cuban!).

  • carl jacobs

    Clive, Clive, Clive

    I realize proper English is a foreign concept to Brits, but you really need to work on pronoun agreement. I’m here to help. Really. Americans are very helpful. All you need to do is ask. B-)

  • carl jacobs

    Repeat after me:

    “The spare tire is in the trunk.”

    • CliveM

      I think you mean:

      “The spare tyre is in the Boot*

      But brave attempt Carl!

      • carl jacobs

        I don’t think you are approaching this instruction with the proper level of dedication.

        • CliveM

          I’m trying Carl, very trying.

          • Dominic Stockford

            This part of the thread is getting tyring, sorry, tiring.

      • Dreadnaught

        I think you mean: The spare wheel is in the boot.

        • CliveM

          Hmm, I’m willing to admit you may be right!

    • len

      Boot.And the bonnet is at the other end.

    • Carl, boldly go where no American has gone before – and take your grammar with you.

  • len

    When the majority has failed(which it does with monotonous regularity) the God has worked through a minority ,even a single person to bring His Purposes about.
    So when’ The Church’ fails in its duty then the minority within the church (the Ekklesia) who have a heart for the Gospel must carry the Gospel forward with whatever means at their disposal.
    There has never been more resources available for Christians to preach the Gospel.

  • David

    Oh Farage answered Welby rather well – through the referendum result !
    But foolishly the A of C has alienated millions of people through his partisan actions.

  • Judas was Paid

    If this is satire it is a kind of satire with which I am not familiar. I am however a provincial hick which suggests that metropolitan humour may Welby beyond me.

    • chefofsinners

      I suspect this piece owes more to satyr than satire.

      • Judas was Paid

        If that is a man with goat’s ears I feel you might be on to something.

  • Judas was Paid

    Was Welby consecrated during the reign of Herod Cameron?

  • Simon Platt

    Welby’s sermon, at http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/5822/the-archbishop-of-canterburys-christmas-sermon, was very worldly. This, in particular

    The end of 2016 finds us all in a different kind of world, one less predictable and certain, which feels more awash with fear and division

    and also what followed, might have been calculated to annoy a Farage, or a Platt for that matter. For all the world’s troubles, 2016 ends far more optimistically than it began, in my view and that of many others. But Welby’s sermon reads, like Guardian articles did when I could still bear to read them, as though it was aimed at People Like Us, among whom I am not numbered (although not an Anglican, I ought to be in sympathy with an Anglican sermon at Christmas, even if it were to cause me to consider my own failings). Someone below suggests that Selby was “teaching not preaching”. I don’t understand the distinction, but I might say that he seemed to be preaching to the converted: converted, but not to Christianity.

    • William Lewis

      Teach the converted, preach to the lost.

      • Simon Platt

        “Read Archbishop Justin Welby’s sermon preached at Canterbury Cathedral this morning”

        it says here.

        (Sorry not to cite you by name, jolly awkward on this tablet thing.)

      • Dominic Stockford

        I disagree – his task, as is any minister’s, to firstly to preach the Gospel. The pulpit is not the place for doing what was primarily teaching (by a generous estimation of what he said).

    • Jon of GSG

      Thank you for that link. I personally can’t see that he’s saying anything like that though. The only real political points he makes are 1. that there’s a lot of anger swirling about, which is surely true, and 2. globalisation isn’t a good thing for everyone. So umm… I’m baffled.

      • William Lewis

        I quite agree. It seems from many of the comments here that there has been a lot of reading between the lines. Some of it less than charitable I would venture.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    I’ve obviously been hearing a completely different story. In the one I read on Breitbart, Farage speaks out against the negative Christmas message the Archbishop of Cantebury gave. Mr Farage did not mention Jesus at all, snd ended his tweet by wishing everybody a “Merry Christmas”. The archbishop, who clearly has a problem with UKIP, Farage, and Brexit has previously attacked all three. His Christmas message had obvious political undertones, though as always he is never explicit about them, preferring to hide behind vague statements. To accuse Farage of slamming Jesus is misleading and beneath the usual high standard of this blog. Farage’s remarks were clearly directed at Welby alone for using his Christmas address to make thinly veiled attacks of those on the political right. If Welby wants to play politics he should be prepared to take the criticism.

    • David

      Quite !

  • betteroffoutofit

    Thank you, Your Grace. How well you understand Fake News!!!!

    Rather better, one suspects, than your present-day successor understands the UN and its New World Order (Incldg. euSSR): judging from your primary source – his sermon. (H)his eyes have not seen the reality wherein (M)marx does not equal Christ. Apparently he’s also not heard that Commies make very good capitalists [The Communist China Bank was the biggest banking establishment in British Hong Kong, when I was there . . . . . .].

    Those who have spirits to connect with the Holy Ghost, let them connect! Those who have minds to think, let them think! In that way, let readers of satire sort out the FUNCISOON. For (s)he reigns, right now, and right here 🙂

    It might help them to look in the mirror and consider Jonathan Swift’s claim: “Satire is a sort of glass wherein beholders do generally discover everybody’s face but their own.” (“The Battle of the Books and Other Short Pieces” – available on Project Gutenberg).

  • Pablo E. Colazurdo

    I think there was over sensibility from Nigel attacking AoC message (and probably from some people on this form): Don’t you think we’re in a much different world than when 2016 started? Think about Crimea, Aleppo, South Sudan, Boko Haram, terrorist attacks all around Europe, climate change, Trump and yes, Brexit? If you just consider all the places where Welby has been this year and things he has seen and heard I think he may have a different perspective than the majority of us. And I consider his message a great Gospel preaching that may be reproduced and shared to start a discussion about who Jesus really is. “For God has come among his people to bring Salvation.” “To participate in this glory we must respond to this child and respond to those to whom this child came.” “In faithfulness to the glory of the Baby in the manger we are all called to respond to this child with unlimited devotion, in worship and awe.”

    • Simon Platt

      I think it’s a better world than at the beginning of 2016 (in many ways, although not all). There is a point of view that thinks otherwise; Welby clearly shares that point of view. (I’m sure his text was carefully thought out.) It seems to me that he is making partisan political statements and implicitly coopting Christianity in their support. I think that’s poor, although common enough.

      • David

        My thoughts too, and very well expressed by you.

      • Pablo E. Colazurdo

        I won’t comment on when 2016 was better or worse than previous years, as I know my own personal issues will cloud my judgment on this. My comment is about what Welby really said: “The end of 2016 finds us all in a different kind of world, one less predictable and certain, which feels more awash with fear and division.” –
        Less predictable: no one predicted Trump winning the election, and I’m not sure how many predicted Brexit. Who can predict what the full effect of a failed coup in Turkey and Erdogan full power? Or the full effect of Syrian invasion? Or the full effect of what is seems to be a Trump & Putin alliance?
        Less certain: Well I don’t think anyone is certain about much anything these days, but this is not something new. Just think about Trump asking for increasing nuclear power, or the massive increase of effects of “fake news” and I think you’ll agree certain is not a word we can use that much today.
        Fear and Division: just look at this forum … can you imagine discussions like this one year ago? The largest (is it really the largest?) democracy in the world elected a president who lost the popular vote by a staggering +2.5 millions votes, won’t you think this will cause division? Ashers Bakery ruling strong opinions? and we can go on …

        An let’s not forget the dark places he has been into this year, and the testimony from churches around the world where they can see much worse situations that what we’re talking about in the UK or US. (South Sudan, Congo, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria – or even his work with the anti human trafficking commission)

        I don’t think this is negativity or partisan political statements – I think is just a look from those dark places.

        • William Lewis

          Quite.

        • Simon Platt

          I’m afraid I disagree very strongly.

          I think the world is no less predictable or certain than it was at the beginning of the year. In respect of the points that Welby was making in this regard, bearing in mind that he went on immediately to quote the Governor of the bank of England, and that you yourself have made, I would argue that the world is much more predictable and less certain than it was even six months ago. The Brexit vote is very significant to me, to Welby, I think, and to many others, although I accept that it is less so on a global scale. You mention it yourself. That is one uncertainty that is greatly reduced. You mention the American election too. That is another such uncertainty reduced and a prediction no longer needed to be made; one which is less immediately significant to Britain, perhaps, but more significant on the global scale. In respect of Syria, I think that the situation there, too, is less uncertain than it was. I think these are all positive developments, and sources of hope. And those dark places you mention are no darker than they have been for at least several years. Justin Welby might feel as though the world is more awash with fear and division than it was; I’m afraid I think that’s a foolish thing to say.

          This talk of “unpredictability” and “uncertainty” is untenable unless you started from the mistaken assumption that Brexit couldn’t possibly happen and nor could a Trump presidency, among, perhaps, other suppositions.

          I don’t mean to be too aggressive in my response, or to overemphasise the significance of Welby’s remarks. For my own part, I’ve practically given up paying attention to what Catholic bishops have to say about current affairs and what lessons they try to draw from them.

    • Royinsouthwest

      If you think that climate change is dangerous can you point to ways in which the climate of the 1940s say was better than the climate of the present decade?

      • Pablo E. Colazurdo

        I don’t know, I wasn’t born yet 🙂 But even if you don’t think it’s bad, I think you may agree that it produces uncertainty and probably fear? At least the NASA think so: http://climate.nasa.gov/interactives/global-ice-viewer/#/

      • IrishNeanderthal

        Climate change has caused a lot of trouble since archeological and written records began. The 14th century in Europe was pretty miserable, even before the Black Death arrived, and in the middle of the 1st millennium hordes of barbarians started going here there and everywhere as the steppes got more hostile.

  • jsampson45

    I guess doing the right thing rather than the safe thing does sometimes induce fear and uncertainty.

  • Inspector General

    Twitter comment from Cranmer…

    “Comment on (free) blog: “feeble and disappointing..I have come to expect and enjoy a higher standard from this blog”

    What’s with this ‘free’ business? Do explain. Come on man, you’re a leader of men. There’s been disquiet in the ranks today, but here you still are. In command. And tomorrow you’ll be sober, as Churchill would say…

    • betteroffoutofit

      OK… I’m still trying!!! There’s an addendum….

      • Judas was Paid

        A just dessert?

        • betteroffoutofit

          Apparently my first isn’t yet “active.” Don’t know what’s going on, but I would add – re withstanding the wiles of the devil::

          We are not here to accept Mo’s and NWO’s definition of peace. Welby looks at the consequences of doing so; but does he SEE that’s where the False Prophet and the Fake News are taking us??? (Certainly our own Inspector does…)

          In contrast, St. Paul’s definition of peace, to the Philipians, is that “peace of God, which passeth all understanding” (4:7). Indeed, we may observe that little of it has got through the thick heads of those marxists and traitors who presume to lead us today.

          Returning to Paul. He exhorts the Ephesians “And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace” (6:15), so let’s note the word “preparation.” There’s also the “And”, for Paul previously says: 13 “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand” (13; also 11). This is fighting talk, ABC Wellers. We need the whole armour, not just the shoes. If we won’t fight evil, then we won’t be able to stand in peace.

          That “whole armour” includes Truth, a breastplate of righteousness; the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God: (Ephesians 6:10-18).

          • Dominic Stockford

            Peace from God, through Jesus Christ, also, as the world cannot give it.

    • CliveM

      I think he was quoting.

      • Inspector General

        Yes he was. But he shouldn’t have.

        • CliveM

          Why not?

        • He also commented: “There is a very slight temptation to say something forthright about a journey they are free to take, pursuing an activity not usually public.”

          Translation: Piss off.

          • Judas was Paid

            Most wondrous.

    • He’s probably referring to the Cyber Protestant Truth Guard. When did you sign-up?

      • carl jacobs

        Ahem!

        There is no such thing as a “Cyber Protestant Truth Guard”.

        • Well, you might be right given Protestants can’t seem to agree on what is Truth. Still, they are quick to disagree with one another as evidenced by many of this thread’s comments.

          • CliveM

            Hmm have you been allowed back on your Catholic sites! Or do they still find your views unbeatably orthodox?

          • carl jacobs

            ROFL!

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr ….

            If they don’t follow the teachings of the magisterium they are not Catholic.

          • carl jacobs

            Is the Pope Catholic then?

          • Time will tell.

          • carl jacobs

            Unless of course he should make an unfortunate pronouncement of the infallible variety. Then who will be the non-Catholic refusing to follow Magisterial teaching?

            Or would Jack follow wherever the Pope might lead?

          • There have been heretical popes. It’s an impossibility for any Pope to make an infallible statement in opposition to Truth. None ever has; none ever will. Pope Francis won’t even risk clarifying his own recent teachings for fear of contradicting his predecessors.

          • carl jacobs

            Nice tune you are whistling there, Jack. Oh look. Is that a graveyard?

          • len

            Heretical Infallible popes .No wonder Catholics are so screwed up on theology.

          • Go research the intricacies of infallibility, Len. Popes are not infallible – just their teachings under strictly defined criteria.

          • len

            Does this mean that the Pope can tell you any old boll***s in his’ infallible chair ‘and you have to accept this a true???

          • carl jacobs

            Technically, yes. That’s why Jack says it can’t happen. He has to say that or … he is going to start looking mighty Protestant mighty fast.

          • If a Pope took the most unusual step of making an ex-cathedra statement, then it would, by definition, be true. For the most part, Popes clarify and develop existing indefectible teachings of the Ordinary and Universal magisterium or teachings from Ecumenical Councils.

          • carl jacobs

            In fact, the Pope could make an infallible statement saying “New dogma X is true, and furthermore, new dogma X does not contradict any previous dogma” and Jack would be bound to give his assent.

          • Well, by definition, no infallibly declared dogma couldn’t possibly contradict any previous one, Carl. And, Popes don’t just wakeup one morning and declare them. They build on Catholic tradition and the sense of the faithful in the Church.

          • len

            These dogmas don`t just fly in on the ether then?.

          • carl jacobs

            Well, by definition, no infallibly declared dogma [could] possibly contradict any previous one

            But perhaps some in the Laity might object based upon something like the Law of Non-contradiction and so would require explicit instruction. You know what reactionary Catholics can be like.

            See, Jack. You have integrity. If the Pope infallibly declared something you knew to be false, you would reject it. And that makes you a closet …

            What’s the word, Jack? You know the word.

          • Jack would never put himself above the legitimately exercised authority of any Pope.

          • carl jacobs

            Oh, the multitude of sins that can be hidden by a qualification.

            legitimately exercised

            Who determines the legitimate exercise of authority, Jack? If it’s the Pope then there is no reason for the qualification. If it’s you then you are still orbiting private judgment.

            It’s not a coincidence you slipped that phrase into your sentence.

          • len

            Jack , you need to get out of there, away from the dark side.

          • Anton

            Can you really type that with a straight face?

          • Anton

            Which when you press a little harder turn out to be legalistic minutiae.

          • Simon Platt

            I say that the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

          • carl jacobs

            Well that’s the theory. The problem is that it can never be tested. It makes the RCC into the norm that norms all norms, and therefore makes the Catholic into a slave of its pronouncements. I will say “That dogma contradicts Scripture” and you will respond “It cannot by definition.”

            As I have said many times, the difference between Protestant and Catholic is that the Protestant assigns to Scripture the authority that the Catholic assigns to the Magisterium.

          • Simon Platt

            No, that’s entirely wrong. Popes cannot define dogma that contradict scripture. If you want to see how this might be tested in practice, consider the current fuss over Amoris Laetitia. It’s being worked out, now, in front of our very eyes. (And, here, we’re nowhere near the point of defining dogma, thank God.)

            Of course, you could prefer, as Graham Leonard put it, to make yourself your own Pope.

          • carl jacobs

            You realize you just said that I was wrong, and then affirmed everything I said. In any case, the RCC has already defined dogma that contradicts Scripture so your argument is already falsified.

          • Simon Platt

            Er, no.Would you care to substantiate that. Any of it?

            The quote I gave from Pastor Aeternus says precisely and very clearly that popes do not have the power to define dogma that contradicts scripture.

          • carl jacobs

            I said …

            I will say “That dogma contradicts Scripture” and you will respond “It cannot by definition.”

            To which you said …

            Popes cannot define dogma that contradict scripture.

            It’s right there in black and white. You said exactly what I said you would say.

            Would you care to substantiate that. Any of it?

            Of course I can substantiate it. I can point out the blindingly obvious contradictions of Scripture that form the foundation of RC dogma. But you will tell me that I cannot understand Scripture apart from the Magisterium. Then you will engage in some exegetical legerdemain that is ultimately sourced in a prior commitment to the truth of Roman dogma in order to prove your case – a case I will reject wholesale. And there the argument will stalemate. Why? Because I subordinate the RCC to the Scripture while you subordinate the Scripture to the Magisterium of the RCC. You will say that the RCC does not contradict Scripture, but that judgment is not based upon exegesis of the Word. It is based upon the presumed indefectability of the RCC.

            If the Pope says X infallibly, then you are bound to believe X. You have no means to judge the truth of this assertion. You are arguing that the necessary unity between Scripture and Roman Teaching is built into the nature of the RCC. To which I say “Spinach!”

          • Simon Platt

            I’m afraid I think that’s poor. I replied in good faith to what I assumed was a substantive point you were making. You responded by anticipating my legerdemain, which seems hypocritical from a chap whose technique might as well predict that I will defend the Real Presence or the Sacrifice of the Mass and, when I do, proclaim “Gotcha!”. I would rather you gave and justified an example in which you say a pope has defined a dogma contrary to scripture. And I say again that your assertion that the limits of the teaching authority of the Pope cannot be tested is clearly wrong, not least because it is being tested now, as I said.

            Incidentally, I wouldn’t so much tell you that one cannot understand Scripture outside the Magisterium, but rather that Scripture needs to be interpreted in consonance with Tradition. I would assert with Newman, that to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. I would tell you that the responsibility of the Church’s teaching authority – its responsibility – is to protect the revelation of which Scripture is the preeminent part. This, of course, is what the Church has always taught and what Pastor Aeternus, in particular, defines.

          • Anton

            Is it not the case that the election of a Pope is ascribed to the Holy Spirit?

          • No, that’s not the case. The election is by Cardinals who may or may not make wise choices.

          • Anton

            That I know. But can you give a definite Yes or No to whether the election of a Pope is ascribed in prayer of thanksgiving afterwards to the Holy Spirit; in the modern era and in mediaeval and Renaissance times. You Catholics bang on about how we protestants are ignorant of Rome’s ways, so educate us please!

          • In 1997, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger answered this:

            “I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined. There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!”

            Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides our actions and can help lead us make good decisions. We are free to listen or not listen, and act or not act. God gives us free will. We are never “forced” to make a decision, moral or not.

            The Holy Spirit can move the cardinals to choose those persons who are most able to meet these needs and respond to the “signs of the times.” Jesus Christ promised to be with the church “until the end of the age,” and guides it through the Spirit. Each of the cardinals are obliged to say as they cast their ballot, “I call as my witness Christ the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who before God I think should be elected.” None of us are perfect conduits of the Holy Spirit – only Jesus was. So, human considerations may intervene.

            So, as Cardinal Ratzinger indicated: it’s false to say that the Spirit will simply dictate to each cardinal what name to write down on the ballot.

          • Anton

            That’s not what I was suggesting; if so, each election would be unanimous! Is OR WAS FORMERLY a prayer of thanksgiving spoken at which the result was ascribed to the Holy Spirit?

          • Jack doesn’t know but given what Cardinal Ratzinger has said, it’s unlikely.

          • len

            The magic stair room ? sounds like something Harry Potter would like?.

          • It’s not a Catholic site.

          • CliveM

            Remind me,what was it called?

          • It’s known as the Fishwrap amongst Catholics.

          • carl jacobs

            Ah! You must mean the National Catholic Register. Do you have a Magisterial declaration that it isn’t Catholic or are you just presenting your opinion of what is Catholic?

            And weren’t you banned from Crux as well?

          • A “Roman Catholic” accepts the official teachings of the Magisterium and not the personal opinions of all those calling themselves Catholic.

            The National Catholic Register is a fine publication.

          • carl jacobs

            Do you have anything besides your personal opinion to tell me who “accepts the official teachings of the Magisterium”? Should I perhaps ask some bishops instead?

          • Carry on. You might want to start with Cardinal Burke.

          • carl jacobs

            Maybe I’ll start in Germany.

          • Yes, a protestant would.

          • carl jacobs

            I could talk to Cardinal Danneels in Belgium. Would that be acceptable?

          • Belgium? The birthplace of progressive modernity and one Edward Schillebeeckx.

          • carl jacobs

            You won’t let me talk to Kasper. You won’t let me talk to Danneels. Perhaps you should provide a list of Jack-Approved Cardinals who can accurately represent to me the unity of the Roman Catholic Church.

          • You can talk to whomever you choose to, Carl. The official route would be the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller. Jack is sure he’ll oblige.

          • carl jacobs

            Ah! That’s my mistake. Unity it seems is found in the official pronouncements of a church office. I had heretofore thought unity was found when people, you know, agreed with each other. I see now why Rome is not riven with division like we poor Protestants. We don’t have a church office.

          • Of course there’s division in the Catholic Church. It’s human. Think how Paul and Peter disagreed. The point is, the Catholic Church has a Divine means of resolving these differences. It can take many decades to do so. However, in God’s good time, differences are resolved.

          • carl jacobs

            And when the likes of Kasper take control, that divine means will be exercised. In the meantime, you are in no position to point fingers at Protestants and crow about RC unity. That unity is formal only.

          • Catholic unity is far from formal. You give Jack an example of one bishop who remains in good standing with the Church today who opposes Catholic dogma. The division today is over how one applies the teachings of the Church in a secular age where many of the laity are poorly catechised and subject to the forces of a culture hostile to the faith.

            On the other hand, one can readily present examples of protestant bishops openly questioning the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, His bodily resurrection, the existence of Satan and Hell. No Catholic bishop teaches divorce is objectively acceptable, that abortion is a matter of personal conscience, that homosexual relationships are sinless. Granted, there is more of an effort today to reach out and minister to people to draw them back to God. Of course, there are the inevitable “celebrity” dissenters, claiming to be Catholic, who are wheeled out regularly by the media to spread confusion.

          • carl jacobs

            As if post-modernism isn’t alive and well and comfortably ensconced in the Magisterium. But you know it is. Who is the current Pope? And doesn’t he say he isn’t changing doctrine even as he goes forth to change it?

            Round and round we go.

          • That may or may not be so. Jack doesn’t know Pope Francis’ intentions or the degree of support or opposition for him. Certainly divisions within the Church are more open. Perhaps that’s necessary. Modernism may have its supporters but it certainly hasn’t captured the Church and never will. It’s an impossibility for heresy to triumph.

          • len

            Isn`t that the Inquisition?.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrr …

          • carl jacobs

            Alas! If only we had a Pope to guide us.

            Oh wait …

          • Popes come and go; good ones, not so good ones and down right bad ones. Nevertheless, Truth endures through the Church. Even during times of trial and disagreement.

          • len

            Truth illuminates all things, even the deeds of the Papacy

          • Royinsouthwest

            We agree (or at least should agree) that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Is there anything more important to agree on?

          • Catholics didn’t start the Reformation.

          • len

            The RCC caused The great Schism

          • The Truth is always resisted.

          • len

            That’s what caused the Great Schism.

          • Anton

            You’re proud of that? You don’t think the Roman Catholic church of 1517 needed reforming? Erasmus did.

          • The human organisation of the Church and the moral and temporal corruption of the hierarchy, most certainly. Not it’s dogma or doctrines.

          • Anton

            We prots agree that the Bible is the only sure written truth.

          • Yeah, but you can’t agree on what it actually reveals.

          • Anton

            In most places there is unanimity, including with you. Elsewhere we protestants we can agree that it doesn’t reveal what you say it reveals. Yours is just another alternative!

          • That’s about the only thing you protestants do agree on – opposition to Papists. What would you do without us?

          • Anton

            Tosh. We agree amongst ourselves about probably 95% of the Bible (and with you about probably 90% of it).

          • Ah, if true, it’s that remaining 10% on the workings of grace, justification, sanctification, predestination, the sacraments, priesthood and the authority of the Church, that makes all the difference.

          • Anton

            I said that we agreed on about 90% of the Bible. Much of what you believe about those things are additions to the Bible. Too bad that Rome sought to enforce an ecclesiastical monopoly by force about that 10% – something else that was unbiblical.

          • Our faith is a living breathing faith and Christ gave the Apostles His authority to reveal those truths not clear or fully revealed in scripture.

          • Anton

            Such as?

            Our faith is alive too!

          • “Such as?”

            Read this:

            http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

            Thereafter, Jack will happily answer any questions you have

          • Anton

            Nicely ducked. I might have done too in your shoes.

          • len

            Gods Word contradicts much of what the RCC proffers as ‘truth’.

          • len

            And you and the inspector are such a good example of Catholics in complete agreement about spiritual matters……..not.

          • The Inspector is an apostate and a heretic. Pray for him. Jack does.

          • len

            He would probably get burned a few decades ago?.

          • Decades, Len? Edward Wightman was the last Englishman to be burned at the stake for heresy in England on 11 April 1612.

          • len

            Was he worse than the inspector?.

          • No one’s worse than the Inspector, Len.

          • len

            LOL

          • len

            Didn`t know you were a catholic rebel?.
            How does that work then?. Are you a closet protestant?.

        • chefofsinners

          No big girly pantaloons then? Disappointing.

          • carl jacobs

            We could find some for you if you like. Any particular color?

    • chefofsinners

      The price is not the same as the value.

  • David

    To me the year has ended in a better condition than it started. A resurgence of genuine people orientated democracy has given us the Brexit result, and soon we will have exited from the undemocratic, globalist EU. In the US the corrupt Democrats have been routed. Trump is an unproven commodity so I’ll make no rash predictions, but he is clearly his own man and not in the pay of the evil globalists, all of which gives cause for optimism.
    Meanwhile a rapidly Christianising Russia has, with its mighty airforce and local ground forces resourced by them, liberated the remaining Christians of Aleppo from those forces financed by the anti-Christian western powers. Many, many things look dire but hope springs forward in defiance of evil.
    My hope is that in 2017 many more in our slumbering masses will wake up from their apathy and ignorance, fed them by our corrupt MS media, to recognise and then reject all the terrible things that have been done against other countries using their taxes.

    • 1642again

      I’m with everything you say David. God’s purposes are changing the balance of the scales before our eyes. What an irony it would be if a Christianised Russia and China were to rescue the indolent ex-Christian West from Islam and communism.

      • Manfarang

        Christmas is on 7 January.

    • Manfarang

      Re Trump taking a call from Taiwan. Concerns about Taiwan leaning towards independence have resulted in an economic downturn there. Something Britain will soon discover.

      • Anton

        Whereas the Eurozone is set for a boom? Pull the other one…

        • Manfarang

          The Central and Eastern Europe economy is seen growing steadily at 3.0% this year and next, which is unchanged from last month’s forecast. Next year, a rebound in investment due to greater absorption of EU development funds should fuel steady growth.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            As you say those countries are net beneficiaries of EU funds plus they have large numbers of their populace working in countries like Britain and sending money and child benefits back home. The Irish Republic was in a similar position for a while until its debts caught up with it.

          • Manfarang

            There are many Britons working overseas sending back money, A lot in the Gulf countries working in well paid professional jobs.
            The Free State as an independent entity wasn’t prosperous, as an agricultural country the Republic did benefit from joining the EEC.

          • Anton

            We don’t get those funds though, do we – in fact we are a net contributor to them. And most of the countries in those parts of Europe are not in the Eurozone, by which for the avoidance of misunderstanding I mean the Eurocurrency zone.

          • Manfarang

            The UK is one of the largest recipients of research funding in the EU.

          • Anton

            And what proportion of EU funding goes to research?

          • Manfarang

            In the last full funding period, which ran from 2007-2013, the UK won the lion’s share of the most prestigious grants awarded by the European Research Council, valued at €1.7bn.

          • Anton

            But the EU budget, to which our contribution is considerable, is a very large number of billions indeed.

          • Manfarang

            The UK government spend on research and development is less than 1.5% of the total.

          • Anton

            Adroitly avoided! We’s have more money to spend on *everything* if we stopped paying it to Brussels, of course.

          • Manfarang

            And slower economic growth.

          • Anton

            Unprovable.

          • Manfarang

            British economic growth has never been above an annual 3%.
            The United Kingdom GDP Growth Rate is projected to trend around 1.00 percent in 2020.
            As for 2017- in the UK continuing uncertainty.
            Southern Europe- haircuts.
            Germany- signs of greater European domination.
            Anton sounds a very European name by the way.
            A very Happy and prosperous New Year to you.

          • Anton

            The point about economic growth rate is to maintain it, not get it high.

            All of my known ancestors are English, and Yes, my friends call me Anton.

  • not a machine

    I rather liked the queens message ,”we cannot all do great things , but we can do small things with a lot of love” borrowed from Mother Theresa , summed up a lot of my thoughts at the moment around life and freedom .I don’t know if Mr Farrage meant to say ignore Jesus , The Archbishop may well have spoken about materialism , as he sees fit , but there we are we live in a country where Mr Farrage can tweet without much to interrogate any Christology more than 140 characters and an archbishop who take to the pulpit in Canterbury and speak about the light to the world of Christ in which he believes, at a length and in a way greater than 140 characters .
    Perhaps your grace enjoys the working of the mind on boxing day ,goodness knows my legs are tired from the afternoon walk. I could comment on both ,I could ponder if I have a dilemma .my first thoughts are perhaps a theological Christological debate between the two , would be as interesting as an economic debate about the story of the EU as a buried talent ,or even one of the officer with much debt ,or slave and master .
    I perhaps don’t expect the Rt rev Justin Welby to meet Nigel Farrage on the same ground ,more energy than light would be formed .but this position is not new , where I felt the queen had more wisdom than the pair of them ,is in her rather intent study of the bible , who missed the two observations “he was obscure ” “he started very small” Christians and brexitiers alike should all praise the power of such truth forming .The family divisons that Christ spoke of , I am happy to think refer to jew and gentile , Christ was of jewish lineage and it is interesting to note , that before Titus destroyed the files (well one of his soldiers) of the jewish lineage , that jesus name would have been on the scrolls , he was allowed to teach in the temple .he was however a Gallelian which gave Pilot , a route to question by the descendent of Herod the Great , who gave him the robes of king and a crown of thorns .jesus never said he was a king of the jews , he did not challenge Herod the greats descendent to the throne ,so he was entrapped and shown not to be able to defeat the gentile force of the Romans nor the jewish king and yet jesus did something far greater , and in so doing gave an eternal message about riches in a temple and power and federal secular politics .
    Bexitiers are making a point ,as is the Christan faith is to receive the holy spirit and Christs salvation , such small things to something as big as the unmovable EU ,such small things ….

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Mr Farage said nothing about ignoring Jesus. The word Jesus did not appear in the tweet. He was speaking solely about Justin Welby. Unless Cranmer has unrevealed proof that Farage said ignore Jesus, the title of this article seems to be an attempt at satire.

      • not a machine

        yes I thought that ,however to accuse his grace of satire is nothing he wouldn’t appreciate , his graces last few words in the flames of his execution ,were perhaps the most satirical ever spoken …..

        • Politically__Incorrect

          Either way, the content is factually incorrect. That leaves two options; satire (not very good satire though) or fake news?

    • Royinsouthwest

      The idea of the importance of small things did not originate with Mother Theresa. When St David, the Welsh patron saint, was dying he told his followers “be cheerful and keep your faith and belief, and do the little things that you have heard and seen through me.”

      Gwnewch y pethau bychain mewn bywyd “do the little things in life” is still a common Welsh saying today.

      • Dominic Stockford

        And ‘that woman’ from Albania didn’t do the one ‘little thing’ that people dying need, tell them of Christ, and encourage them to repent and trust.

        • Well, God will judge her soul, not you.

  • chefofsinners

    Unfortunately Mrs May has banned the Holy Spirit from speaking through Mr Farage.

    • David

      Steady – you don’t want to stray into blasphemy against the Holy Spirit !

      • chefofsinners

        Interesting issue. How would you define it? Given that it is unforgiveable, I think it requires a narrow definition, such as, perhaps,being convicted of sin and Christ as saviour by the Holy Spirit, but denying that conviction.

        • David

          I wouldn’t presume to define it, as that may be impertinent. Instead I’d prefer to stay well away from such territory, whilst encouraging other Christians to do likewise.

          • chefofsinners

            Trouble is, there’s a lot of nonsense talked about the work of the Holy Spirit in particular. Any reticence to engage on that ground is ruthlessly exploited by the charlatans.

        • Dominic Stockford

          Pretty close, I think.

      • Or blasphemy against Mrs May.

        • David

          Even the Roman Emperors were only “deified” after their death. Last time I checked Mrs May was in good health ?

          • You may know more about the old days than I do. How do you rate this source?
            https://readingacts.com/2010/04/02/the-roman-cult-of-emperor-worship/

          • David

            It is a well known and recorded historical fact that the Roman Empire had a religious system of emperor worship. That is why Christians, who proclaimed Christ as King, and with only God, of which he Christ was a part, was to be worshipped. Christians refused to burn incense on the Imperial Altar in homage to the emperor. Christianity was seen as a political act against the exiting political order, and therefore they were persecuted.

          • Such knowledge, I am reminded of this dialogue:

            Wayne Campbell: So, do you come to Milwaukee often?
            Alice Cooper: Well, I’m a regular visitor here, but Milwaukee has certainly had its share of visitors. The French missionaries and explorers were coming here as early as the late 1600s to trade with the Native Americans.
            Pete: In fact, isn’t “Milwaukee” an Indian name?
            Alice Cooper: Yes, Pete, it is. Actually, it’s pronounced “mill-e-wah-que” which is Algonquin for “the good land.”
            Wayne Campbell: I was not aware of that.

  • chefofsinners

    Farewell, then, George Michael.
    Last Christmas he gave you his heart.
    Why do things always stop working the moment the guarantee runs out?

    • Martin

      CoS

      Can’t say I’ll miss him, quite the opposite I’m afraid. Not sure I’d want his heart either.

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Apparently Tony Bennett left his in San Francisco. I know lost and found probably get some strange requests but that one is definitely off-beat

        • Dominic Stockford

          I thought TB left his wind in San Francisco?

        • chefofsinners

          boom boom

        • Martin

          PI

          Ooops, read that as Tony Blair.

      • chefofsinners

        There are worse bits you could be offered.

        • Martin

          CoS

          I’m not sure what he produced was music.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      It’s been a bad year for the slebs. According to the beeboids there has been a doubling of deaths of famous people this year. No explanation has been offered though I’m sure they’ll pin it on Brexit, Trump, and Russia.

      • 1642again

        I suspect that their constitutions and delicate dispositions have been hollowed out by years of degenerate behaviour and media sycophancy, and therefore can’t take the shock of finding out that the plebs do not hang slavishly on their every utterance. Alas cruel world!

      • chefofsinners

        Slebrity is the art of making your life seem important and longer lasting than it actually is.
        Death is the answer you can’t argue with.

      • How on earth do they come up with a statistic like that? Have they got a prepared list of people who are officially “famous”, and somebody employed to cross names off that list, adding one to the year’s total each time they cross a name off the list?

        • Politically__Incorrect

          Well, you know the BBC, loads of licence-payers money to waste on pointless research.

    • Sarky

      I heard he was found covered in chocolate…..got careless with his wispa.

      • chefofsinners

        All you need is faith, Sarky.

        • Sarky

          Sorry, don’t need a ‘father figure’, I found my ‘freedom’ and it wasn’t at ‘the edge of heaven’.

  • len

    Need Farage to lead another Reformation.
    We want our church back. We got it back once from the Papists, we need it back again before it become a tomb full of dead bodies.

    • Manfarang

      Down the pub?

      • len

        Not a bad idea,you buying?

        • Manfarang

          No selling- The War Cry.

      • Politically__Incorrect

        I would prefer to attend a genuine church meeting in a pub than have to listen to secularised left-wing waffle in the finest of church buildings

        • Manfarang

          Ecclesial bricolage eh?
          I’ll stick to the temperance bars.

        • David

          Same here. The building is not the thing. It is our worship of God, as revealed in the Bible, that counts.

    • A most curious choice for your new saviour. But Len, you don’t worship in a church, nor are you a member of a congregation. Remember?

      • len

        I am a member of the largest congregation in the world Jack..The Body of Christ.

    • 1642again

      I’m warming to you Len.

  • Manfarang

    24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (£).

  • len

    I think Nigel Farage would do very well in a Church setting.He might have to lose the fag and the pint but his straight talking no nonsense attitude would sweep through the Church like a breath of fresh air.
    Heresies would be exposed .Hypocritical attitudes would be laid bare.
    It takes an inner strength and conviction to cut through all the red tape and political correctness to expose the truth.
    The church needs leaders with these qualities.

    • Manfarang

      He doesn’t in fact go to church very often. He is like many Tories of old who pay lip service to religion but have no personal religious beliefs.

      • David

        No one knows what is in a man’s heart, only God. But I do know that Nigel Farage points frequently to our “Judaeo-Christian heritage”, to quote him.

        • Manfarang

          The word heritage shows his secular outlook. In fact it is more of a Pagan-Christian heritage. Days of the week, Yuletide, Ēostre, etc, plus all the stuff from ancient Greece.

          • Anton

            You seen the Hebrew names of the months in the OT?

          • Manfarang

            Do you know the Chinese names of the months?

          • Anton

            The Chinese never claimed to be people of the Creator God. The ancient Hebrews did, and one of their months is named Tammuz, after a pagan deity, which is interesting in view of the command not even to speak the names of pagan deities in Exodus 23:13.

          • Manfarang

            Interesting nugget of information about the ancient Hebrews.
            Nüwa also known as Nügua, is a goddess in ancient Chinese mythology best known for creating mankind and repairing the pillar of heaven.

          • Old Nick

            Different months

          • Anton

            Different from what? Please clarify.

          • Old Nick

            Different lengths – from ours

        • Which makes him a cultural Christian, at best.

          • Sarky

            You would have to be mad to think he is anything but.

          • Manfarang

            Anything but a worshipper of mammon.

      • 1642again

        Given that a number of high profile Bishops have seemed to be vague deists at best (Harris, Jenkins etc), I’m not sure that’s a problem to be appointed to the House of Bishops.

        • Manfarang

          Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    • 1642again

      He would remind me of some very effective country parsons. He’s an extrovert, but the clergy are ever more introvert, he gets on the normal person’s wave-length instinctively and builds rapport, again another invaluable skills for a clergyman. Neither does he pose as Holier-than-Thou in a condescending manner, again another essential for being an effective clergyman. He’s an effective speaker who’s not afraid to talk straight or speak truth to power at the risk of making others feel uncomfortable, another important quality. He has huge courage and stamina…

      Subject to a real vocation, the idea of him as the next ABC grows on me.

      • Anton

        Nah. Our next Ambassador to the USA. And Daniel Hannan as our lead Brexit negotiator.

        • 1642again

          Hannan’s a globalist and not a street fighter. That job needs a General Matthis figure.

          The original Cranmer was employed by Henry VIII as both ambassador and ABC so perhaps he could do both?

          • Anton

            ‘Globalist’ is not a well-defined word. I believe in the free movement of goods across national boundaries, but not the free movement of settlers.

          • 1642again

            He wants free movement of people.

          • Anton

            If he does then I agree, let’s not have him in the negotiating team. (Could you provide a reference?) Who would be your dream negotiating team, please?

          • 1642again

            Heard him say it after Brexit. He’s a Carswell old style Whig, free trade, Parliamentary sovereignty, small state, and all that implies. Hostile to ‘nativism’,

            Negotiating team. Couple of top patriotic business people, eg John Mills, Crispin Odey, and some animal lawyers. Minimum of politicians, but Mr Farage should be there alongside Bill Cash as well.

            Needs to be people who are happy to walk away and revert to WTO.

          • Anton

            Yes, that’s the key point. Thank you.

          • Old Nick

            And are not afraid to talk over M. Verhofstadt’s interruptions.

          • That man is vile.

        • Hannan is in favour of the free movement of people! I’d think twice about him being Brexit negotiator.

      • chefofsinners

        If only he were an actual Christian.
        The church has suffered too long under men who have a plethora of gifts, none of them spiritual. We don’t need another.

        • 1642again

          Indeed. If only…

  • IrishNeanderthal

    Something to give us a bit of time out from the Catholic v Protestant ding-dong below: A Latin American little donkey song (not a translation of the one we know in Anglophonia.)

    Mi Burrito Sabanero – YouTube

    Watch out for an interesting bit of iconography as the time bar approaches 2 minutes!

    Original words on El burrito de Belén – Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

    • len

      Is there some connection between the donkey and Jacks attitude?.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Ooh… That’s a bit different. And the fictional figure idolising the Truth – interesting!

    • IanCad

      Well, as you mentioned Latin America, let me post a link to this essential piece of Christmas music:

      The composer is playing the piano.

      • IrishNeanderthal

        Thanks for that.

        Unless my Polish and Spanish are completely mistaken, it is the composer playing the piano.

        I have just been listening and following these lyrics: http://jcarreras.homestead.com/lyricsmisacriolla.html

        • IanCad

          Thanks for the link Paddy; that thumbnail is on my copy of the Carreras version – somewhere in an unmarked box in an unknown location. I actually prefer the one I linked to. Don’t get me wrong, no one can sing like Jose:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvaI96GFh8
          It’s just that I prefer this earthier version. To cite a comment – “Very Fantastica”

        • IanCad

          You speak Polish and Spanish?! Irish as well? And English?
          Good for you! Learning is not dead yet.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            I don’t speak Polish, though I do know a bit, enough to search for what I want to buy in our local Polish shop.

            No familiarity with Irish, I’ve lived in Great Britain for most of my life. Relatively recently I have started to learn some Welsh, though: one advantage is that the spelling is much easier than the Gaelic languages.

  • Inspector General

    Inspector back from the ‘Mouse’. Warm and convivial there, rather like Cranmer’s following…

    For a year in which so much has happened, curiously nothing much around right now. One is reduced to listening to Craig Charles on BBC Radio 2. A fellow who sounds like he’d jack up your vehicle during the night and remove your wheels. Such is the blessing of having a scouse accent…Still, one is sure he is an excellent chap….

    The beatification of George Michael continues unabated on Pink Thing. In lieu of miracles, the devoted will accept acts of great charity. It is rare indeed that their revered icons pass out of this life not as a result of ‘complications from the treatment of a long standing virus’ so there’s going to be tears all round if the post mortem results give otherwise.

    And if there’s any time left, the Inspector will investigate why at least one Labour MP doesn’t think much about measures to combat voting fraud.

    Cheery pip!

    • Anton

      If the Inspector does not appreciate the merits of silence as an environment, he could listen to Bach or Mozart with greater benefit than Radio 2.

      • Manfarang

        Or maybe Wagner.

        • carl jacobs

          No, not Wagner. We are talking music here. Not orchestrated bombast

          • Manfarang

            Rachmaninoff then.

          • carl jacobs

            Yes, the Russians are generally acceptable.

          • CliveM

            Vivaldi

          • Old Nick

            Byrd.

          • CliveM

            As long as it’s not Beethoven.

          • Old Nick

            Especially not the Ninth Symphony….

          • CliveM

            The 9th is more turgid then the rest, but generally I’m no big fan of either classical or romantic music.

          • Old Nick

            The last movement of the Ninth Symphony simply shouts at you that YOU VILL BE JOYFUL, ve hev ways of making you joyful – so very appropriate for the EU (for as long as it lasts).

          • Inspector General

            “You will be joyful in the EU at all times or you will be shot”

            By Order of EU Kommissars.

          • chefofsinners

            The author of the ‘Ode to Joy’, Schiller, thought it was of little value. Ideal, then, as an anthem for the EU.
            Try the finale of Beethoven’s early work ‘Christ on the Mount of Olives’ – ‘Hallelujah’. Spectacular.

          • Anton

            It’s overdone a bit. For joy in Beethoven, listen to what he called his ‘song’ of thanksgiving to God for recovery from illness, which comprises the third movement of one of his later string quartets, opus 132. Unbelievably wonderful.

          • CliveM

            To be honest I don’t need the EU to be unmoved by Beethoven! His music just doesn’t touch the soul.

          • Anton

            Er, whose soul?

          • CliveM

            Mine and anyone with taste :0)

            Ok generally I’m in a minority on this.

          • Anton

            At a guess you are thinking of Beethoven’s middle period when he was shouting. Try op.132 3rd movement as detailed below.

          • CliveM

            Generally if you try hard enough you can find something to appreciate in any musical form.

            I do struggle with Beethoven however.

          • IanCad

            Jazz may be more to your taste then Clive? Beethoven invented it. Here, about 6:30 in:

          • carl jacobs

            Apostate.

          • carl jacobs

            Heretic.

          • CliveM

            Probably, but we were talking about Beethoven!

          • The dog?

          • Pubcrawler

            More a Tallis man myself. Or Dunstable. Also rather enjoying Weelkes of late.

          • Old Nick

            Endorsed heartily. In our Advent concert we sang a rather jaunty motet in honour of S. Anne (not many of those) by the 15th century composer John Plummer. That rather has rather grown on one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E6TK-rlSt0

          • Pubcrawler

            Oooh, new to me. Thank you!

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            You are a man after my own heart…

          • Samuel

            Gilbert and Sullivan!

          • Old Nick

            People say that Wagner’s music is not as bad as it sounds, but I fear that it is.

          • Anton

            It goes on a bit in places, but the high points are sublime.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Liebestod is not bad…and I am partial to bits of The Flying Dutchman

          • Anton

            Lohengrin is one of my two favourite operas (Don Giovanni the other), Act 3 of Götterdämmerung is incredible, and the climax of the overture to Flying Dutchman is my favourite moment in all Wagner. Tannhäuser overture is pretty good too.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            Yes, I had forgotten Tannhauser…it is wonderful

        • carl jacobs
      • carl jacobs

        Or Handel. Or Beethoven.

        • Inspector General

          Has to be Chopin in the first…

          • carl jacobs

            Well … If it’s Piano Sonata No 2 in B flat minor. OK then. That might be acceptable.

          • Inspector General

            As they say in the East End of London, “you hum it son, I’ll play it”

          • Politically__Incorrect

            Chas ‘n Dave – Rabbit?

            Only kidding

          • Inspector General

            Only strumming…

          • chefofsinners

            Is the ringtone on my phone when the wife calls.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            Does she know? Dare you tell her?

          • chefofsinners

            There was an unfortunate incident where she called me when I’d left my phone at home…

        • A Christmas present for you Carl.

          • Anton

            Allegri’s Miserere can be heard most Ash Wednesdays during the afternoon communion in kings College Chapel, Cambridge, although it does depend on having a choirboy who can hit the high note. In English, unfortunately.

      • Inspector General

        Well done for reminding about a useful tip, Anton. If any types are reading this, having had grandchildren thrust upon them this afternoon, there’s nothing like the classics to calm them down…

        • magnolia

          1812 overture if the grandkids are getting a bit uppity, or the flight of the bumblebee. Work wonders, calming them down immeasurably…

          • Inspector General

            No Mags, something a lot less energetic. The little ones will then look at you with a bewildered expression of “mummy would never allow me to suffer this way”. And also that look of “I’ve only been around a few years, but I’ve always got my way and young thing that I am, it’s too late to change me now.”

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Or Tallis…I find much comfort in Tallis

  • Sarky

    RIP carrie fisher. My first crush.

    • Samuel

      She was a babe as princess Leia

    • Inspector General

      Could well be DVT. The Inspector recommends that all airline passengers so arrange themselves in their seats as to do the ‘dying fly’ for the duration…

    • carl jacobs

      Live hard. Die young. Drugs take their inevitable toll.

      • Sarky

        Absolutely, which is why I hate them.

  • Simon Platt

    Some earlier commenters have said some silly things about Catholic teaching on papal authority. If they are sincere in their interest they might like to investigate what Cardinal Burke and others have been saying recently about the possibility of “formal correction”. This might be a good place to start: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/cardinal-burke-explains-plan-for-formal-correction-of-amoris-laetitia-in-the-new-year/

    • len

      Cardinal Burke, Formal Correction.You making this stuff up?

      • Simon Platt

        Not at all. What makes you ask that?

  • IrishNeanderthal

    While you folks are choosing your favourite music:

    5 Predictions for 2017!

    Enough to get Jack singing Ein feste Burg!

  • This is okay:

  • Sorry, I didn’t like this horridly “click-bait” piece, on balance.

    For a start, I hadn’t read any of the content elsewhere linked to, on which this piece had been a satirical comment. I now wish I hadn’t bothered to read that elsewhere content, either – just to find out what His Grace was on about, becoming scarcely any the wiser despite all this research

    The ABC’s sermon seemed turgid to me. I could only bear to read a fraction of it. What idea, or specific passage of scripture, was he supposed to be preaching on? I could see a vague connection between certain memes in the ABC’s sermon and certain memes Cranmer latched onto in the sermons of The Lord Jesus Christ, but nothing fully-fledged in the way of connections. The Daily Mail and The Sun seemed to have read a lot into the ABC’s sermon that I’d missed, or had not got to before becoming bored. It wasn’t at all obvious that the single, cheery tweet from Farage, the foundation of the Sun and Mail reportage, related to the ABC’s sermon at all.

    And yet, here am I, wasting my time, and that of anybody reading this rant of mine, complaining that a piece about (it seems to me) almost nothing, by Cranmer, so well-written that I thought it was sure to be about something, had induced me to waste my time reading The Sun and The Daily Mail, after struggling to read some of a really dreadful sermon by the ABC.

    At the moment, I am grateful that at least Farage himself, penned only a contribution to all this required reading of mine, that was less than 140 characters. I wish I could learn brevity too. I am glad that my satire is more accessible than His Grace’s though.

    • If you were Catholic, you could at least offer up this dreadful suffering in reparation for sin. As it is, it appears to serve no useful purpose.

    • betteroffoutofit

      My own case, J M! I’ve spent hours reading text-context! I agree with you. ABCranmer has done a brilliant job with all the Fakery.

      ABWelby’s text is incoherent. One clue to theme/argument comes via ref to Mark Carney (e.g: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/05/mark-carney-isolation-globalisation-bank-of-england), a speaker who buzzes the same words as ABW, e.g: “uncertainty” and “loss of trust.” ABW quotes: “Rather than a new golden era, globalisation is associated with low wages, insecure employment, stateless corporations and striking inequalities.” A bit odd, methinks, coming from our Number One proponent of Project Fear (which is a good reason Farage involved himself). It ensues, though, that Carney wants us to participate in the NWO/euSSR. We shouldn’t be “Outsider” globalists dontcha know.

      The Gospel text was supposed to be Luke 2: 1-20: the Nativity. ABW, however, ties Project Fear to it by suggesting that we can achieve security only by observing the “Glory” of Christ. I checked all Luke’s 14 refs to “glory.” Only 4 or so are in 2:1-20, whereby ABW tries to exploit that word through dramatic/emotional contrast with the poverty of the manger and the shepherds. I note, also, that though ABW suggests that the shepherds were not to concern themselves with “Palestine” – he omits Luke’s perception of Christ as “A light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel” (2:32). Talk about anachronism!

      I think, then, that ABW here uses Christianity for propagandising the agenda of Project Fear. I’m unsure who he thinks his audience is, though. Is he sitting “uncertainly” on a fence, or is he trying to be all things to all men? It’s interesting that he starts out with “Us” as scorners of the “manger,” but by the end “We” appear on the despised “edge” where “we” must learn to exercise “our capacity” — by playing victim.

      Bur how would ABW encourage unHoly Roamers and Remoaners to learn about Christ from our victimisation? Surely ABW should first recommend the strength of Christ’s Word against evil? That Word will help us find Truth, Then, as Luke intimates*, we may “prevail” against evil,and develop strength to stand before Him in eternal peace (Luke 2:21- 36)

      Onward Christian Soldiers, say I.
      ________________________
      *Like Paul, whom I cited yesterday

      • David

        I agree in that A of C is using his position and attempting, rather weakly, to enlist Christianity in the service of his political perspectives, which in this case is the anti-Leave Project Fear. Who does he think he is kidding ? But many of the C of E bishops do this, preaching from a persecutive informed by The Guardian, and little else, including the Gospel.

        • 1642again

          You’d always be welcome to speak at our church David. Near East Devon?

          • David

            Well thank you indeed. Although my family originate from north Devon I now live at the other side of the country in West Suffolk, so it’s a bit of a long way away.

          • 1642again

            Understood. I lived just south of Bury St Edmunds for 8 years until a decade ago. Had an excellent vicar.

  • Mike Stallard

    Anyone who pays the least attention to Twitter deserves our fullest disdain.

    • 1642again

      I’m not sure I’ve got much disdain left by the time I’ve descended to Twitter on the hierarchy of things meriting disdain given the multifarious higher priorities further up.

  • chefofsinners

    OBITUARY

    In a year of many notable deaths, this article has now tragically passed. Its death was confirmed at 07:00 by its publicist, Archbishop Cranmer, who Tweeted: “So sad. #Gutted. #How darepeoplecomplainwhentheygetthisstuffforfree?”

    Noted as sickly from birth, the piece also suffered from being born into a family of exceptional articles, which created a pressure and expectation it could never live up to. Then, following repeated denials it was diagnosed in mid-life with Archbishop’s Inebriated Deficient Satire syndrome. Its final days were spent at the Swiss clinic Dignitarse, where it was nursed by ‘close friend’ Linus, who has himself struggled for many years with smug addiction.

    Elton John tweeted ‘When will this terrible year end?’ To which the reply ‘31st December’ is currently trending.

  • Samuel

    Dude

    I have sensory overload there. Although as a self appointed “modesty monitor” so beloved of our Haredi ultra Orthodox chaps, I consider it a mitzvah to monitor such …. modesty.

  • Cannonkat

    This man Farage would be exactly what Archbishop Fulton Sheen called an “Odd Ball.”

  • Alicia Sinclair

    Don`t get this at all.
    Farage clearly has issue with Welby and the C of E spin on events in 2016. He`ll be correct-the church is out of step and irrelevant these days as we`ve seen over Brexit and Trump. migrants and Syria. Any true church would care about its Christians-not those who kill them.
    Farage is NOT getting at Jesus is he?Just Welby and its zombie church carapace.