Extremism

London Bridge terror attack: they shouted “This is for Allah!”, as the Holy Spirit descended for Pentecost

Just as the nation was crowning techno-pianist Tokio Myers the winner of Britain’s Got Talent, a few more Islamists decided to stage their own version of the show on London Bridge Allah’s Got Talent. Tokio Myers’ talent makes time stand still in a mesmerising cacophony that lifts the soul; the Islamists’ talent ends time in a bloody confusion that terrorises the earth. Is it seven dead this time? About 50 injured? Dozens mowed down like bowling pins as a van is driven at speed over another bridge? People stabbed, throats sliced, screaming, running…

We call them terrorists; they call themselves Muslims. They seem to possess identical talents. One eyewitness on London Bridge told the BBC he saw three men stabbing people indiscriminately, shouting “This is for Allah!”

That’s Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Presumably the Islamists repudiate all references to Allah’s talents of love and mercy, preferring to home in on those sections of the Qur’an which advocate war against unbelievers and death to idolaters. Or perhaps they conflate the two, believing that Allah’s love and mercy are transcendently different from creaturely apprehension: his talent for killing is mercy; his jihadic talent is love. To slaughter the kuffar and mushrikin is most beneficient indeed.

If these terrorists who call themselves Muslims are quite open about waging jihad for Allah, who are we to say that it’s ‘nothing to do with Islam’? Why do politicians feign bewilderment, and clergymen preach incomprehension? Burying one’s head in the said is really not a thrilling talent. If the Islamists bomb nightclubs and pop concerts, and stab shoppers and revellers, and do it all “for Allah”, is it not clear that they hate our liberty, despise our entertainment, and loathe our materialism, permissiveness and licentiousness? And they do so because Allah demands purity, holiness and submission to his precepts. We won’t ‘learn lessons’ (as the politicians tediously intone) if we turn a deaf ear to cries of ‘Allahu Akbar’ and ‘This is for Allah’, ‘For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places‘ (Eph 6:12).

Today the Church celebrates Pentecost Whitsun the day the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and other believers in Jerusalem. There was a mighty wind and tongues of fire, and people were filled with power:

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy (Acts 2:17f).

The Spirit that came at Pentecost was power. That same Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead dwells in believers today (Rom 8:11), but it doesn’t seem like it, or feel like it. Southwark Cathedral is closed, presumably on police advice. The General Election campaign is dutifully suspended again, presumably out of respect for the dead. O, we’ll sing our hymns of Pentecost and preach about the power, but the Spirit of prophecy will be quenched. The Spirit of charismatic revelation as the medium of communication between God and man will have His message tailored for our snowflake ears: there will be no inspired utterances which might offend; no talk of the Spirit of might by which Isaiah saw the last things.

And so the Spirit of prophecy which yearns to impart charismatic wisdom is reduced to blurting out the pontifications of man. The divine Spirit that seeks to guide us to the truth is muzzled, making widespread understanding nigh impossible. And what understanding can there be without wisdom? What unconscious congregation can have its mind invaded with sermons of peace, peace, when there is no peace?

But perhaps you believe that the Spirit of prophecy ceased with the canonical prophets, a cessation that will last until the eschaton. What, then, of Joel’s prophecy (3:1), quoted in the second chapter of Acts? Where are these sons and daughters that will prophesy? Where are the visions and dreams?

In truth, we don’t really care. Our preferred revelation now comes from Britain’s Got Talent, which is balm for the soul. The prophetic talent which brings revelation, knowledge and wisdom is a social offence and a democratic inconvenience. ‘This is for Allah!’ is not for Allah and is nothing to do with Allah, for Islamists are not Muslims and for all that they know they know nothing about true Islam, which is a religion of love and peace.

And so the Archdeacon of Berkshire shall declare Ramadan to be a holy month.

And Westminster Abbey shall recognise Mohammed as The Prophet of God.

And the Spirit that descended in power at Pentecost as the eschatological gift of the new creation shall lead the Bride of Christ into the wilderness of blindness and idolatry, and shepherd her along the way to terror, death and destruction. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

  • IanCad

    I am so glad we don’t have a TV. What a bloody awful noise. I’m not so glad that Southwark Cathedral is closed – even less so that our gutless leaders suspend the election because of – historically speaking – trifles.

    Yes! it is Pentecost; the Spirit descended and that Spirit equips us for all contingencies. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” 2 Timothy 1:7
    We are not to quake, fear, over-react or hide under rocks. We are commanded to love justice, and, in that pursuit we must enforce what laws we have. They are sufficient for the purpose of quelling the outrages of the fiends amongst us.

  • And what did the Holy Spirit in Jesus say when Pilate committed atrocities against the people:

    (NIV) 1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Luke 13

    Or to believers through Peter:

    (NIV) 8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For,
    “Whoever would love life
    and see good days
    must keep their tongue from evil
    and their lips from deceitful speech.
    11 They must turn from evil and do good;
    they must seek peace and pursue it.
    12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
    and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
    but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” 1Pet 3

  • Dreadnaught

    If these terrorists who call themselves Muslims are quite open about waging jihad for Allah, who are we to say that it’s ‘nothing to do with Islam’? Why do politicians feign bewilderment, and clergymen preach incomprehension?

    Because we are being denied freedom of expression and ‘minority’ considerations Trump the silenced majority.

  • Why do politicians feign bewilderment, and clergymen preach incomprehension?

    The Islamization of the West will only be achieved by lying to the people about the true nature of Islam. Politicians and clergy would have us believe that Islam is as loving and peaceful as Christianity and that Muslim terrorism is a wicked perversion of, to quote the Prime Minister, ‘a great faith.’ It seems that a diverse, multicultural society can only be maintained by a succession of horrific lies. When men of God join in the lying I feel utterly betrayed.

    is it not clear that they hate our liberty, despise our entertainment, and loathe our materialism, permissiveness and licentiousness?

    Their hate for us stems primarily from our refusal to submit to Allah.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Is there any English (or Scots) law that says citizens have to take police advice? If not why didn’t Southwark Cathedral open today for preaching Christ’s message? Better still the Cathedral could have been closed and the service held in the open air as a public act of witness. There is a concert going on in Manchester to show that people won’t be cowed by terrorism. Why do the clerics of Southward allow themselves to be silenced?

    • John

      It is very close to the crime scene and is cordoned off. Opening the cathedral to the public would inhibit the forensic investigation.

      • Martin

        John

        One wonders what forensics they are gathering. The police seem to like to close roads for days when accidents occur as well.

  • magnolia

    Thanks for this response. I am tired of the answer to “What shall be done?” being “We must not be racist/ Islamophobic. We must not over-react.” It is true but it is NOT an answer, but an evasion of an answer. Poland does not have people murdered in its streets like this, nor has it let in heaps of ISIS refugees (amongst the genuine).What we must do to avoid this re-occurring needs better answers with greater integrity. Otherwise more innocents die needlessly.

    The right of innocents to walk the streets without being murdered or maimed by strangers trumps the vast majority of other perceived rights. We don’t even want to hear about the lesser right not to be upset by words while the greater right not to be maimed, emotionally scarred or murdered is being brushed under the carpet. We must very strongly indeed honour the dead , enforce our laws, and protect our citizens, by many means. It could be any one of us. We owe it to others like us.

    • Coniston
      • Merchantman

        You know what Mrs Politician, Mr Politician and whoever…Three Muslims running around lashing out, cutting women’s throats; three against one woman I’m told: shouting Allah Akbar, Offends me greatly and your worthless non- reaction does too. Your non-reaction is the friend of those Islamic Muslim creeps. Righteous anger has its place, as Jesus showed in driving out the money changers from the Temple.
        No Mr Politician I’m not going to get used to it.

    • Lucius

      What shall be done? First, recognize that “individual-by-individual” analysis does not work in defeating Islamic terror, as the “but not all” Muslims are terrorists position misses the mark and only creates paralysis. No law enforcement agency can gauge the subjective intentions of millions. None. Second, recognize that there is a cultural component at play. While all Muslims may not be terrorists, this is true, it is equally true that Islamic culture is an incubator for violent anti-Western sentiment. This is NOT new; rather, it has existed for the better part of 1400 years. With this in mind, an immediate policy decision could be an absolute prohibition on future Muslim immigration indefinitely. This may need to be followed up with certain domestic policies limiting domestic Islamic growth and incentivizing Western assimilation. This is tough medicine, I know, but we have a tough problem.

      • Slim Jim

        I agree with you. The solution will involve hard choices, like internment for suspected jihadists, even deportation. Allowing the continuation of importing cultural aliens must be reviewed. However, our hands are tied by human rights legislation, and the doctrine of multiculturalism and political correctness are stains which are hard to shift.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      We should also honour those who fought back last night, like the taxi driver who tried to run down one of the attackers. Such people put themselves at immediate risk whike trying to protect others but they also put themselves at risk from our warped criminal justice system. Wouldn’t be totally surprised to see some of them arrested despise their actions being entirely honourable

    • Albert

      What precisely are you suggesting should be done? As I understand your comment, you are blaming Islamic immigration. What’s your solution? Islamic repatriation?

      • magnolia

        Something. Tired of those who advocate a big fat nothing.

        Am I a security expert.? No. Am I a willing amateur? Yes. Do I support repatriating gentle Muslims? No. Do I think aggressive people need incarcerating, re-educating or repatriating? Yes. Do I think it is easy to tell the difference? No- but tough decisions need to be made or the man, the woman, the child, and the baby on the streets and in the homes, theatres, pubs, restaurants, trains, open spaces and so on are all in potential trouble.

        I suggested bollards after Nice, as no doubt did others. Then I saw some were saying “Bollards are all very well, but they will find other ways.” Yes, but the more difficulties put in their way the better. Railings and bollards might have partly worked here. The more we make it harder for them the better. I am also in favour of allowing citizens self-protective pepper sprays, since most people are decent. You can prosecute those who misuse them but at least the public could restrain these people and partially disable them before they stab or bomb more people, and the outcome could have been much better.

        • Albert

          Some useful ideas here Magnolia, the bollards and the pepper sprays in particular. I’m glad you’re not advocating repatriation.

          Here’s an interesting article in the Telegraph which shows that we have far fewer terror attacks (or should we just call them “loser attacks”?) in Europe than in the 1970s and 1980s:

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/many-people-killed-terrorist-attacks-uk/

          A couple of caveats: I’m not minimising the horror of what has happened. Any loss is too much, and it is no consolation for those involved directly or indirectly that they are more unlucky to be involved than 30 years ago. It is also possible that what we are seeing is attacks about to start to go up. However, as it stands, we need not to play the losers’ game and allow ourselves to feel they are more successful than they are (and therefore to be more frightened than we need to be). Until this year, we were more likely to die of a bee sting than at the hands of a terrorist.

          • Royinsouthwest

            They have already had considerable success. During the 70’s were opponents of the IRA (other than Protestant terrorist groups in Northern Ireland) targeted by the police, LibLabCon politicians and the media in the way that critics of immigration from Muslim countries have been targeted in recent times?

          • Albert

            Not sure what you mean Roy. Is there a word missing somewhere?

          • Royinsouthwest

            No. I pointed out that our politicians have and are trying to appease militant Muslims by restricting the freedoms of people to criticise those militants or to criticise Islam itself.

          • Albert

            Thank you for the clarification. Perhaps that’s changing. The PM seemed pretty clear about the problem. Of course the more politicians and others keep telling us this has nothing to do with Islam the more people feel unconvinced.

          • bluedog

            ‘I’m glad you’re not advocating repatriation.’ Read Magnolia’s post again, she does recommend repatriation – to a degree. Degrees can be flexible.

            As the downward slide continues and relations between the Muslim minority and the non-Muslim majority irrevocably fracture, one can make certain predictions. The non-Muslim majority will start to fight back in all sorts of ways that may well be illegal, if not criminal, but are based on the need for security. Inevitably the Muslims are going to be forced into ghettoes, both residential and economic. One can envisage a situation such as that in Northern Ireland before the Wislon reforms when it was difficult for Catholics to find work in Protestant businesses. Indeed, NI pre-Wilson seems the most likely template for the UK in future.

            Absent the death penalty, the armed police will continue their policy of summary execution for Muslim terror suspects. Regular anti-terror raids will be conducted in Muslim ghettoes by police special weapons groups, with suspects hauled out for internment, possibly without trial for prolonged periods.

            One can go one, but there’s scarcely any need.

            On the other hand you may need to reconsider your continuing objection to repatriation. What if it proves to be the best solution? Think of the partition of British India in 1947 and the earlier, treaty mandated, population exchanges between Greece and Turkey in 1923. It’s been done before, for the greater good.

          • Albert

            Read Magnolia’s post again, she does recommend repatriation – to a degree

            I think you can infer that, yes. I also think that the picture you paint is a realistic one, but not inevitable. It shows the need not to overreact (and I mean overreact). Northern Ireland is not a happy model. We have a problem with a small number of Muslims. Mishandle the situation and it will be larger numbers of Muslims.

            On the other hand you may need to reconsider your continuing objection to repatriation. What if it proves to be the best solution?

            If it violates human rights, then I would object to it. “Best” here seems to imply some kind of utilitarian view of morality, I would reject. I would also point out that the examples of India, Pakistan, Greece and Turkey are not happy ones.

        • Martin

          Magnolia

          It’s an interesting thought that the citizen should be allowed to protect themselves, certainly the police seem unable to prevent injury to the public.

        • Carry an aerosol can of strong hold hairspray, sprayed in the face it causes enough discomfort to distract and let you get away.

          • Martin

            Marie

            Not sure how I would explain that in my pocket.

    • Manfarang

      Ministry of Foreign Affairs Republic of Poland
      “Poland is a country not directly threatened by terrorist attacks. But we, can not completely exclude the increased interest in Poland on the part of terrorist organisations, especially in the context of our involvement, among others, in Afghanistan.

      Like in the case of Poland, the threat of terrorism in Central Europe is currently low. However, in regions neighbouring the EU (the North Caucasus, Central Asia, the Maghreb countries) we observe the activity of extremist/terrorist groups of varying intensity.”

      • Merchantman

        Poland is not a multicultural country and therefore it has virtually no mosques or home grown terrorists and refused to take in its quota.

        • Manfarang

          The population of Post-World War II Poland became nearly ethnically homogeneous as a result of the Nazi Holocaust, the radically altered borders, the deportations ordered by the Soviet authorities, who wished to remove the sizeable Polish minorities from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine and deportations of Ukrainians from Poland.

          • Merchantman

            Out of respect we should mention the Jewish population who were exterminated by the Nazi Germans.

    • RobinHMasters

      I wish Archbishop Welby or even some vicar somewhere would take the opportunity to mention the gospel of Jesus Christ as a possible alternative to Muslim jihad.

  • John

    Yeah, yeah, not all Muslims are terrorists and all that. But most terrorists seem to be Muslims don’t they? Given the origins of this religion, the way it has spread over the last 13 centuries, and the fanatical obsession about its founder, it is a miracle so few follow in his bloody footsteps.

    • Dolphinfish

      Not really. It’s surprising how little most Muslims actually know about Islam. They turn up at the mosque, sure, but they often are dumbfounded when you read out passages like Surah 98:6, “They who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures”. Or Surah 9:5, “Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, seize them, confine them and lay in wait for them in every place of ambush” Most Muslims are not terrorists, it’s true, but that’s not because they’re good Muslims, it’s because they’re bad Muslims.

      Of course, in the west we’ve been bad Christians since the Reformation. Had it not been so, we would have recognized Islam for what it actually is, a heresy of Christianity, most specifically of Catholicism, just as our ancestors recognized it for what it was a thousand years ago when they called the Crusade, just as the Spanish recognized it for what it was when they launched the Reconquista. Unfortunately, the lesser heresy of Protestantism has weakened us to the danger of the greater, so much so that now, even the Church itself has difficulty seeing what’s in front of it.

      • Coniston

        In Dante’s Inferno (Canto XXVIII) Mohammed is regarded as a Christian heretic.

        • Royinsouthwest

          It is not surprising that Dante portrayed him as a heretic since Muslims, while rejecting much of Christian and Jewish teaching, claim that the Old Testament prophets, Christ and the Apostles were forerunners of Mohammed.

          • Coniston

            I have read (can anyone confirm?) that Mohammed, when in Mecca, first tried to present himself as the latest (or last) Jewish prophet. When the Jews rejected this, and he stirred up enmity, he fled to Medina. This,if true, would account for his hatred of the Jews.

          • Dolphinfish

            As far as I’m aware, Mecca – though quite a tolerant place at the time – didn’t have many Jews. Medina, on the other hand, did. When he first came to Medina, the Jewish tribes there were anxious to meet him because they were (and, of course, still are) waiting for the Messiah. Then as now, Jews were extremely scripturally aware, however, and immediately recognized how ignorant he was of the holy books. For this reason they rejected him out of hand and this – rather than anything that happened at Mecca – was the root of Islamic problems with jews. He considered them a danger, so he threw two of the three tribes out and murdered and enslaved the third. He would have murdered the other two as well but at that point his power in Medina had not yet become unchallenged. He actually DID give the order to massacre the second tribe, but rescinded it when the patriarch of a nearby pagan tribe grabbed him by his robes, slammed him up against a wall and informed him there would be no massacre today. Pity the guy left it at that.

        • RobinHMasters

          Mohammed and his followers spent a few years in Ethiopia in exile, where the general assumption was made that he was a Nestorian (heretical) Christian preacher.

      • Inspector General

        It appears that muslims who are poor ones and criminal even, can ‘redeem’ their wickedness by killing Allah’s enemies – that’s us.

      • David

        “They are dumbfounded when you read out passages like Sura 98:6”
        Don’t be so naive. They act dumbfounded. It is all part of the deception to defend and promote Islam – remember deliberate deception – tacquia – is permitted by Islam providing it is promote the faith or protect individual Muslims.

      • Royinsouthwest

        We were bad Christians before the Reformation. The purpose of the Reformation was to reform the Church. That is why it is called the Reformation.

  • Albert

    And so the Archdeacon of Berkshire shall declare Ramadan to be a holy month.

    Oh for goodness’ sake.

    • Typhoon Tina

      The Church has been infiltrated by Marxists, feminists and crypto’s.
      That’s why I’ve left.

      • Chefofsinners

        Not because of the anti-Semites?

      • Albert

        What you’ve left the Church completely (i.e not just one community)?

  • platoscave

    But has the Holy Spirit informed and empowered the religion of Islam? That is the burning question.

    • Merchantman

      It’s a death cult, you can’t square that with the Holy Spirit.

    • Dominic Stockford

      No.

    • Inspector General

      Mohamed claimed he was visited by an archangel. Lucifer is an archangel.

  • Going back to the time, during the last war or perhaps earlier, when the political parties decided to allow Muslim immigration, I wonder how extensively the churches were consulted and whether the tragedy could have been prevented if they had objected strongly enough. Today’s church is marked by a sickening enthusiasm for diversity but one somehow thinks of yesterday’s churchmen as being incapable of betrayal; Fisher presiding at the Coronation, for example. Perhaps he was as big a bastard as today’s lot.

  • Typhoon Tina

    1) Ms. May stated that the attacks are bound together by “the single ideology of Islamist extremism” which she called “a perversion of Islam”.

    “Defeating this ideology is the greatest challenge of our time. But we cannot defeat it through military intervention alone” or permanent defensive counterterrorism operations. She said it will only be defeated when “people’s minds are turned away” from Islamism and they are “made to understand that our values…are superior to anything offered by the preachers of and supporters of hate”.

    2) “Safe spaces” where this ideology is allowed to breed online must be tackled, she said, saying that they need to work with foreign governments to reach “international agreements that regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremism and terrorism planning”.

    3) The prime minister also targeted “safe spaces that exist in the real world”. “Yes that means military action to destroy ISIS in Iraq and Syria, but that also means taking action here at home.”

    “There is, to be frank, too much tolerance of extremism in the country. So we need to become far more robust in identifying it and stamping it out across the public sector and across society.

    “That will require often embarrassing and difficult conversations. But the whole of our country needs to come together to take on this extremism and we need to live our lives not as a series of separated, segregated communities but as one truly United Kingdom.”

    4) Robust counter terrorism strategy: “As the nature of the threat become more complex, fragmented, and hidden, especially online, the strategy needs to keep up. so in light of what we are learning about the changing threat we need to review Britain’s counter terrorism strategy to make sure police and security services have all the power they need.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/06/03/van-hits-pedestrians-major-incident-london-bridge-multiple-injuries/

    So
    Nothing to do with Islam……check.
    British values……..check, after decades of promoting multi-culturalism and calling anyone who protests against Islam hate-criminals.
    International agreements, regulate cyber space……check, more attacks on free speech.
    Too much tolerance of extremism……check, mustn’t allow the British people react logically to the nation being filled with immigrants who hate us.

  • ecclesiaman

    Donald Trump recognised the problem and has tried to do something about it. He has been thwarted and is seeking approval from higher courts. No doubt the same kind of NTDWI will attempt to thwart any realistic effort to curb the murderous jihadi’s in the UK.
    If TM genuinely means ‘enough is enough’ and really DOES want to do something effective, she has the ideal opportunity before the election to say what she will actually do. The manifesto does have some intentions in this connection (p55-Defeating Extremism). However, British values and a Commission and new criminal offences are patently inadequate. Root and branch measures are needed, as suggested below. It could turn the tide of the election. I am not holding my breath though. I wonder what Mrs T would have done? Is the first duty of Government the protection of its people? We shall see.

    • Martin

      I’m afraid the powers that be are more interested in restricting the rights of the individual that they are of actually addressing the issues.

      Unfortunately the police have the same viewpoint and are so risk averse they will fire 50 rounds, killing the perpetrators and injuring a member of the public, rather than capturing them and bringing them to a criminal trial.

      • ecclesiaman

        I think the same too. Agendas are at play here and not just relations with Saudi. It will be either interesting or tragic to see what Mrs May et-al actually do. We must pray that those who ‘bear the sword’ actually wield it.

  • John

    Theresa May said today that there needs to be far less tolerance of islamist extremism. I’m sorry, but that is fine coming from ANYONE except the person who has been Home Secretary and Prime Minister for the last seven years.

    • Merchantman

      We are caught between the Devil and deep blue sea. TM is still the best of a useless lot. This will go on and on until the casualties are so tremendous some sensible politicians will take over. Corbyn and his cronies don’t just tolerate terror they are in bed with terror.

  • Inspector General

    From BBC on-line

    “Damien Pettit (above) said the man had been “very family-orientated” and that his wife had just had another child.”

    Let’s just forget about the so called militant interpretation of Islam the politicians say we are suffering under. This is just common or garden Islam. You’ll find it wherever you find muslims…

  • Dreadnaught

    You can take our freedom, you can take our benefits – but you’ll never take our beer. Good on yer lad.

    • HedgehogFive

      Five thousand years ago, beer was the standard worker’s drink in Egypt and Iraq, and wine was drunk in Iran.

      So, on present form, your confidence may be misplaced.

      • Dreadnaught

        I was referring to the foto on Cranmer’s tweet.

  • Vote UKIP to bring back hanging for all those terrorists we catch instead of using them to fight other Muslims. They love Allah so much they can damn well go and live with him and send the bodies back to their families. We need to send a strong message that we do not tolerate terrorism in the UK.

    John Pilger:
    “In 2011, according to Middle East Eye, the LIFG in Manchester were known as the “Manchester boys”. Implacably opposed to Mu’ammar Gadaffi, they were considered high risk and a number were under Home Office control orders – house arrest – when anti-Gadaffi demonstrations broke out in Libya, a country forged from myriad tribal enmities.
    Suddenly the control orders were lifted.
    “I was allowed to go, no questions asked,” said one LIFG member.
    MI5 returned their passports and counter-terrorism police at Heathrow airport were told to let them board their flights.”

    We are so with the Saudis’ money and so is the US that we do anything. They both wanted Gaddafi dead so we oblige any way we can regardless of the blowback.

    • Royinsouthwest

      Who was the Home Secretary when the control orders were lifted? I think we May know the answer to that. The Prime Minister, if she is still in power in a few day’s time, owes us all an explanation.

      • big

        no, she,like Blair is a traitor, they don’t care about dead people, the whole thing can be turned into a ” beneficial crisis”
        what was it Reagan said about governments,and the 10 most dangerous words you’ll ever hear?

      • She sure does.

    • big

      well said Marie….it really is beyond me why we keep this rabble in power in Saudi. ..we should have taken them out after 9/11….in fact we should do so now, never mind Assad.

      • Martin

        Oil

  • Inspector General

    Any followers of Cranmer’s site would need to know that a vote for Labour this week is a vote for Islam. It simply cannot be anything else. It is why there is no Islamic party, although RESPECT seemed to be tailor made for them. You see, everything they want politically, Labour must surely deliver, or the muslim holders of inner city seats will make it clear the leadership can no longer rely on their unconditional support…

    • Dolphinfish

      You might have a case, Inspector, if it wasn’t for the fact that the Tories were hell bent on selling arms into the fever swamp of Wahabbism, the ultimate seat of the entire sickness, Saudi Arabia.

      • Inspector General

        It’s one of those things that we just don’t know whether we are doing good or bad, Dolphin, and let’s not find out!

        We really can’t afford that particular dictatorship to be overthrown. Hence the arms. We need to put stable dictatorships back in place in the Middle East to keep their awful peoples in strict check.

        • bluedog

          Disagree IG. Whilst chaos would ensue, the collapse of the Saudi monarchy is an essential pre-condition for the emasculation of Wahhabism and shutting down its export to the West and more moderate Muslim states. Partitioning Saudi Arabia into a number of statelets may not be too difficult. For example, one could envisage a western Iraqi Sunni state in Anbar province that extended south into northern Saudi Arabia. Jordan too could potentially expand, indeed, the Hashemite Jordanian monarchy might be persuaded to become the keepers of the holy places. Yours Sincerely, Sykes-Picot.

          • Inspector General

            You’ll do no such thing, Bluedog!

            The West needs Saudi oil. Or, to be more accurate, assured supplies of Saudi oil. We have to work with that as a given, not a variable, possible, or probable…

          • bluedog

            Assured supplies is the operative term, IG. The Saudi state may not be needed to ensure supply.

          • Inspector General

            There’s no such concept as never, Bluedog. If the West is to be persecuted eternally in a round about way by the Saudis, then there will come a day when we might as well ‘deserve to be’….No more needs to be said at this time.

          • bluedog

            The Saudis have provided political stability on the Arabian peninsular for a number of years, but have over-played their hand through the export of militant Islam derived from Wahhabism. For this transgression the Saudi regime must pay the ultimate price and be liquidated, surrendering control of the holy places as a consequence.

      • Royinsouthwest

        Don’t forget the official report on Saudi funding of jihad that the British government does not want to publish.

        ‘Very Sensitive’ Government Inquiry into Saudi Arabian Funding of Jihadi Groups May Never Be Published
        https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/sensitive-uk-terror-funding-inquiry-findings-may-never-be-published-saudi-arabia

        An investigation into the foreign funding and support of jihadi groups that was authorised by David Cameron may never be published, the Home Office has admitted.

        The inquiry into revenue streams for extremist groups operating in the UK was commissioned by the former prime minister and is thought to focus on Saudi Arabia, which has repeatedly been highlighted by European leaders as a funding source for Islamist jihadis.

        The investigation was launched as part of a deal with the Liberal Democrats in exchange for the party supporting the extension of British airstrikes against Islamic State into Syria in December 2015.

        • Inspector General

          Roy. There is precedent for the way we consider Saudi. In the 39 45 war, we were obliged to consider the Soviet Union an ally of sorts. At the time, it’s hard to believe the British establishment were proud of or even content with the situation. But they knew that without that entity’s existence, it would have been even worse for us.

  • David

    Nothing is ever an accident. The timing of this, early Sunday morning, was obviously because it was the start of Pentecost, whilst the approach of the GE was also relevant. The attack was a direct assault against a broad front of western matters, including alcohol, late night entertainment, Pentecost and democracy.

    I believe that the situation will have to become a lot worse before wet lettuce politicians like Mrs May wake up and translate mere words into tough actions; of course her rivals in the other nationally known parties, except Ukip, are even more left wing in their approaches than she is. That awakening will only happen when, and it is a when not an if, the public grasps the depth of the betrayal that they have suffered from the so-called “cultural elite”, and the extent of the danger that confronts them.

    Providing that the economy remains vibrant, mixing different cultures and faiths has worked reasonably well, except with Islam. Until that stark reality is grasped no progress will be made. Accusations of Islamaphobia are a joke – as who can rationally claim that it is not reasonable, necessary even, to be opposed to a movement that has always intended you, your country and culture deadly
    harm ?

    • Dominic Stockford

      Except that it was Saturday night, 10.08 to 10.16pm.

      • Albert

        And, given the level of religious literacy in this country (at least where Christianity is concerned), it is unlikely that they knew that it was Pentecost, let alone why it is important.

        • David

          My experience is that Muslims are far more well acquainted with the basics of Christianity than most of the tick the Christian box on the census forms type of “Christian”.

          • Albert

            This is true. But isn’t the evidence also that Islamists aren’t terribly well acquainted with Islam (and therefore, let alone Christianity)?

          • Anton

            Evidence that Islamists aren’t well acquainted with Islam?

          • Albert

            Yes. Some of these people going off to Syria or blowing themselves up had been ordering books with titles like “The Beginner’s Guide to Islam.”

      • David

        So on the eve of Pentecost.

    • bluedog

      ‘whilst the approach of the GE was also relevant’ The GE was the precise reason. The aim being to destroy the confidence in the power of the civil authority to protect its citizens.

      • … in order to bring a hard line response to Islam that will isolate all Muslims and create other extremists.

        • bluedog

          Terrorism is a successful strategy, it works.

          • Manfarang

            But often not in the way the terrorist want.

          • bluedog

            It worked for the IRA and the Stern Gang.

          • Yes, it does.

  • Dominic Stockford

    ‘Allah’ does not have mercy on those who are not innocent. And we are not innocent because we do not bow the knee to ‘allah’

  • Arden Forester

    Mrs May now calls for an “embarrassing conversation”. It has taken her a long time to figure out that Islam is a belief system in its heartlands that fosters hatred of those who are seen as infidels. Whippings, floggings and beheadings are perfectly normal in Arab lands.

    Most Muslims live with a desire for peace, a settled life, an avoidance of any Koranic verse that seeks apostates, infidels and general backsliders killed and a cultural “community” cohesion for common cause and perceived safety. As we used to say, keeping their heads down.

    This embarrassing conversation has got to address the warmongering history of Muhammad and how ISIS is different today from him then. This embarrassing conversation has to confront the desire for “community” withdrawal and self-imposed separate development. Does multi-culturalism mean continued segregation?

    Mrs May needs to be completely unabashed when she gets going on this embarrassing conversation.

    • big

      …she won’t do anything, probably blame it all on Putin or Assad…she absolutely won’t dare call out the Saudis who have done so much to support radical Islam

    • Inspector General

      Close the mosques in the UK and free the people is what you are saying. Muslims who cannot and will not accept the ‘new order’ must be given assistance to emigrate back to their lands of origin. On the condition that they never come back here even to visit, for any reason. Any reason at all.

      • There are far to many mosques in the UK.

        • RobinHMasters

          Then start with the biggest ones.

    • Notforinfants

      The time for relative inaction against Islam in the UK must now surely be over. Unless and until there is a radical change of government policy from containing Jihadism in the UK to positively removing its ideological sources then inevitably and obviously the attacks upon innocent people will continue.

      Firstly , as Bob Smith explains in his incisive article ‘Islam’s Fatal Flaw’ two essential elements of Islam need to be understood.

      1. The potential killers are trained everywhere within Islam and evenly distributed throughout the greater Islamic population (ummah), and:

      2 Because they cannot be easily identified, it means any devout believer anywhere could be the next killer. Every Muslim is aware of this potential threat (fear) from these most devout believers. As a result all Muslims suffer from the same fear that drives the system.

      We should demand that those who settle in our countries cast aside values incompatible with ours, because the lives of ordinary people living in the UK are far more important than the sensitivities of Islam appeasers and more important than the freedom of Islamic killers to wreak murder and mayhem.

      What then are the practical steps to be taken? The following suggestions may appear for some to be drastic or ‘extreme’ but I suggest they will be effective in significantly reducing, or removing the jihadist threat permanently.

      1. Government must require all Muslim Imams in UK mosques and other Islamic institutions not only to personally renounce entirely all injuctions in the Koran to exercise Jihad in any shape or form, also in addition to forbid teaching others the same who come under their care and influence. Failure to comply should mean immediate deportation back to their country of origin.

      2. Every single act of Islamic terrorism, of violence or death on our streets should carry a penalty for the whole Islamic community which must take ownership or responsibility for the men of murder and violence within their midst whose existence and often known jihadist sympathies are tolerated.

      Each act therefore should automatically result in government closing down a number of mosques in the UK with immediate effect.

      This would result in the so called “moderate” Moslems who either condone or support jihadists in their communities to expose them and weed them out on pain of potentially losing their mosque. (we should understand that mosques are much more than places of worship, but centres of indoctrination of young people, children, and especially many unemployed Muslim young men.) Thus “These mosques become dangerous intellectual cesspools of Islam think. Only the most devout believers work their way into leadership positions, and these people are the most likely to believe Islamic calls to violence. The inability to rationalise anything about Islam is at its height inside the mosques” (Islam’s Fatal Flaw).

      3. No new mosque buildings to be permitted in the UK.

      In my view these three specific steps are essential prerequisites in testing to destruction the reality of moderate moslems and their leader’s constant but hypocritical claim that Islam is a religion of “love and peace”.

      • How will you monitor point one? Would you say all services, lessons, and teaching material to be in English and have a mosque monitoring team to shadow the Imams and community leaders? Otherwise this plan is good.

        • Notforinfants

          Marie. No, clearly either would be impossible to monitor, However, the point would be to compel Imams to publicly renounce Koran based jihadism, and to separate, as it were the sheep and the goats. True, those who take that step would be taking a great risk in opposition from orthodox Moslems everywhere – but that is their problem. As stated those who refuse to comply with what is after all a reasonable request should be deported.
          Government should note and record those who do or do not comply. This is not
          “watertight” and controversial, but we are dealing with people’s lives here.

          • Very difficult to compel Imams when they don’t speak English, I wouldn’t trust them. Still I suppose they know the words prison and deportation.

  • Albert

    And they seem to hate Jews more than Christians (although I suppose the Islamists may just end up gloriously egalitarian and hate everyone equally).

    • Hi

      They will try.

    • Manfarang

      They hate Shi’as most of all.

      • Albert

        More than likely.

  • Mike Stallard

    When the gay freedom was first brought up along with abortion and divorce freedoms too, the people who shouted loudest and with the most conviction carried the day. The same was true over the ordination of women. Now the terrorists are shouting at the top of their voices that Islam is the only true religion and that their view of God is the only correct one.
    Allow me to quote:
    “The best lose all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
    I have just watched grown men running in panic from three lunatics with knives. Then they all huddled on the floor terrified when the Policeman shouted at them. What have we come to?

    • big

      well said Mike…they should have tried this stunt up north,at least in my youth they’d have got their teeth kicked down their throats ….i am afraid we’ve created a horrible metro sexual, mushy fluffy society. ..i hate to say it, but we’ve lined ourselves up for this ….just like when Breivik attacked his own country, we’ve created a polarized society. …in fact we don’t actually have a “society” any longer just fluffy “communities” and that in my opion is the problem

      • Manfarang

        There are reports of bottles, chairs, and glasses being thrown at the attackers.

        • Mike Stallard

          Good.
          Poor old Anna got a lot of her thoughts deleted. That is rare nowadays because I assume that she was defending the sacred LGBTTQWERTY community.

    • Hi

      How DARE you compare gay rights with Islamic terrorism.

      • big

        Mikes correct…radical Islam think its perverse, in fact they think our whole society is perverse and weak, therefore they attack us.

        • Hi

          No. It was a gratuitous swipe comparing gay rights and women’s ordination with murder and terrorism…. i.e.

          “When the gay freedom was first brought up along with abortion and divorce freedoms too, the people who shouted loudest and with the most conviction carried the day. ….”

          “Now the terrorists are shouting at the top of their voices that Islam is the only true religion and that their view of God is the only correct one.”

          GAYS DO NOT BLOW UP AND MURDER PEOPLE FOR THEIR BELIEFS and NEITHER do the rest .

          • big

            ….but they do promote paedophilia…which is an abomination….and certainly something you won’t be allowed to bring up in polite society… or rather question in polite society

          • “but they do promote paedophilia”

            Who ?

          • big

            …sorry, gays..and i would suggest thats one of the reasons they hate us.

          • Hi

            “sorry, gays.. ” *Bollocks * .

            ” i would suggest thats one of the reasons they hate us.”

            I’m gay and don’t hate heterosexuals.

          • big

            do you support other gays who promote the ‘rights’ of paedophiles?

          • No.

          • big

            ….blimey!…. that actually took you nearly 15 minutes to answer

          • I was answering other posts .

          • big

            ….are you sure?…you’re very active on here…its not as if you’ve written great big long comments in answering others is it!

          • Hi

            You know I’m not accountable to you about when I do and do not reply to posts. You are extremely privileged to get any response from me given your obvious homophobia.

          • big

            …whatever

          • Hi

            Not my problem you seem to have an issue with gays and lesbians and want to use this thread to be so ghastly.

          • Inspector General

            “I’m gay and don’t hate heterosexuals”

            You might not, but many prey on our young. There’s no other word for it. It’s a form of hate, that. “Love conquers All” is the gay mantra, but it falls short of a defence in criminal court.

          • Martin

            Hannah

            What you mean is that you are a sexual sinner. There is no group of people called ‘gay’.

          • Anton

            Regarding your comment which oddly seems to have been deleted that Rome fell when it went Christian… the western half of the Roman Empire fell when the emperor took genuine Christianity and morphed it into a bastardised institutionalised version that persecuted the Jews, the people of whom God said “those who bless you, I will bless; those who curse, you, I will curse”.

          • I deleted my posts , because I realised I’d used up too much of my lifespan in bothering to write or argue anything here in the first place. My bad. I learn. Au Revoir .

          • Inspector General

            Last year ‘the oldest queer in the village’ as he calls himself was not present at Brighton pride, one understands. He’s in his 90s and was otherwise engaged in London trying to get an indecency conviction he picked up while a scoutmaster in the 1970s overturned.

          • Inspector General

            They prefer ‘education’ to achieve their ends. Part of that is to educate people not to stand in their way, or they’ll be fined, or God forbid, be labelled a bigot!

          • big

            ….we now live in a post normal, post truth ‘society’…more like balkanization of society. …I’m afraid its something the fluffy brigade doesn’t understand!

          • Inspector General

            So long as they can orgy afterwards in the gay pub, the militant buggers just don’t care.

          • Martin

            Hannah

            They are all a judgement of God on a society that takes no notice of Him. Gays do oppose the rights of those who call their behaviour sin and take away their right to work and earn a living, not much different to murder.

      • Inspector General

        He’s right, Hannah. State sponsored homosexuality destroyed Greece and Rome. And it’s not only our turn now, but the militants are well on the way to achieving our destruction through perversion here…

        • Hi

          Rome fell when it became Christian.

          • Inspector General

            Come the Gay Pride marches this year, do look out for the “No to homophobia. No to transphobia, No to Islamophobia” placards. Ironic isn’t it. You people siding with a religion that has slated your males for death by unaided flying, and ‘conversion’ rape for the women.

          • Rome fell when it became Christian

          • Inspector General

            This country’s finest hour was when we were undisputed Christian.

          • Like Rome? The Victorian era was hypocritical , no?

          • “You people siding with a religion that has slated your males for death by unaided flying, and ‘conversion’ rape for the women.”

            What’s this “you people” business? Don’t libel me.

          • You claimed the empire of Rome fell because “State sponsored homosexuality destroyed Greece and Rome”

            I’m just pointing out the last days of the Roman empire ,both east and west , were under Christianity. What’s the issue with this fact?

          • Inspector General

            One expects the sun also shone in those days too. it wasn’t all clouds and lightening…

          • big

            it fell because it was a big fat corrupt ponzi scheme just like our so called ‘society’

          • Rome fell when it became Christian..

          • big

            …blimey talk about a stuck record. ..what do you do for your follow on act,back flips?

          • Fact.

          • big

            …yes you do sound like a stuck record!

          • Inspector claimed the empire of Rome fell because “State sponsored homosexuality destroyed Greece and Rome”

            I’m just pointing out the last days of the Roman empire ,both east and west , were under the religion of Christianity. What’s the issue with this fact?

          • big

            …good, but I’d suggest you don’t need to be so pedantic about it.

          • You are wonderfully patronising

          • Inspector General

            Richard Nixon said it. One agrees with him.

          • Hi

            “Tricky dickie”….

          • Inspector General

            If you are still a practising Jew, one suggests you have no other god but Yahweh. False idols like LGBT activism are no use to you.

          • Hi

            Tell me which God do you worship?

          • Oh and yet again you are assuming a lot in that post which is a pity because you *know* my views regarding Judaism and homosexuality. For six years. You also know I’ve defended the right of people to say gay sex is a sin. I’m disappointed in you tonight.

          • Inspector General

            What’s the point of all this, Hannah! Homosexuality is a walking wounded handicap. That’s all it is. In previous times, including Jewish, your ‘condition’ would have been pitied. As a woman who would not be touched by a man and vocal with it, your lot would have been as a mere skivvy in a household. Placed there by a concerned father.

            Homosexuality will NEVER be accepted. Not while there are real men and real women around to oppose it.

          • Anna

            Are you suggesting that Christianity is a bad influence?

          • Hi

            I’m suggesting that for a Christian to suggest that the premise Rome fell because of homosexuality is a paradox, when the western Roman and eastern Byzantine Empire were Christian when they fell..

          • Anna

            Rome had corrupted Christianity rather than the other way round. True, Rome was nominally Christian, but had allowed too many pagan influences which drew the people away from the pure faith of the early Christians.

            More importantly for you as a Jew, and me as a Christian, it is more pertinent to seek answers to the following questions-

            Why did Sodom and Gomorrah fall?
            Why did Jerusalem fall?

          • Martin

            Rome was falling long before Constantine. The degeneracy was clear in the time of Nero.

    • David

      Yes it was so sad to see hordes of fit, strong young men running away from just three knife wielding assassins. If ever there was an argument for allowing a small but significant percentage of our citizens, comprising properly vetted and well trained people, civilians, to carry concealed firearms then this was it. The stabbings would never have happened once the terrorists had revealed themselves after their van mowed down the pedestrians. But I have committed the cardinal sin of using what has now become unthinkable – applying common sense !

      • Dolphinfish

        No, David. Your sin is presumption, believing you would have been any more heroic.

        • Anton

    • Hi Rambo,

      “have just watched grown men running in panic from three lunatics with knives. Then they all huddled on the floor terrified when the Policeman shouted at them. What have we come to?”

      1). My American friend from Tennessee has said we should arm “the citizenry for self defense ”

      2) . You’re confident of taking out several men with knives with your bare hands. Not every man or woman can do that.

  • Hi

    Watching Robbie at the Manchester concert. Unbowed, unconquered, defiant and British.

    No retreat , no surrender.

    • andrew

      That’s a joke right. Sorry, sarcasm doesn’t always translate well via text.

  • Dreadnaught

    Who’s this Hairy Anna Grundy I keep hearing about?

    • Arden Forester

      Bill Grundy’s daughter?

      • Dreadnaught

        Isn’t he on the Archers?

        • Arden Forester

          No, this one was done for by the Sex Pistols in an interview.

  • Chefofsinners

    The muzzling of the Holy Spirit has crept up on our society over many years. Now, an evil has grown up amongst us which we cannot defeat without God’s help. But the fire of the Spirit has been rejected. When this fire burns false translations of the bible people are prosecuted and fined a sum which mocks scripture. We are too polite to stop Islam at the doors of our cathedrals, too ‘enlightened’ to start a new crusade, too materialistic to stop immigration, too confident in the goodness of human nature to put up fences. Preachers have been scorned for so long for saying “the end is nigh”. No-one’s laughing now.

    • Manfarang

      Jehovah’s Witnesses were subjected to intense persecution under the Nazi regime. The Nazis targeted Jehovah’s Witnesses because they were unwilling to accept the authority of the state, because of their international connections, and because they were strongly opposed to both war on behalf of a temporal authority and organized government in matters of conscience.
      If your translation says virgin instead of young woman, it may be false.

      • Chefofsinners

        Why? You think Christ was naturally conceived?

        • Manfarang

          In Isaiah 7, the almah is already pregnant, and modern Jewish translators have therefore rendered almah here as “young woman”. The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which was completed in the late 2nd century BCE, translated almah into Greek as παρθένος (parthenos), which generally means “virgin”.

          • Anton

            The other Hebrew word is BETULAH and some scholars say ALMA means virgin and BETULAH doesn’t and other scholars say the opposite. I don’t know enough Hebrew and I suspect you don’t either. But Matthew 1 is crystal clear. To doubt she was a virgin is to doubt Matthew, not to quibble about the meaning of single words.

          • CliveM

            Does it need to be stated? An unmarried young woman would be expected to be. It wouldn’t need to be explicitly said.

          • Anton

            O, that it were so today!

          • CliveM

            Well yes, but fortunately we’re talking about today!

          • Chefofsinners

            Luke 1:34-35

            “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
            The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

      • Anton

        Translation of which verse? Matthew’s Greek is pretty clear to me.

        • Manfarang

          And Aramaic?

          • Anton

            We have Matthew in Greek and I suggest you read the first chapter to found out whether Mary was a virgin when she bore Christ. You are free not to believe it, of course, but that calls into question your Christianity.

  • Pentecost sermon 2017 by Dr Gavin Ashenden.

  • Inspector General

    Hard times, Hannah. Aldi do a very reasonable if young ‘single grain scotch whiskey’. Still, one doesn’t wish to complain, unlike another pampered crowd, the eternal benefit sponge.

  • Anton

    Labour will respond with steps against “religious extremism” that will target Christians as much as Muslims.

    It is time to reclassify Islam as a political movement as its own scriptures clearly show it to be. (I’ve said this before and will probably have to say it again, unfortunately.)

    • bluedog

      Any time an imam or any Islamic preacher mentions Koranic verses that advocate death of unbelievers, they should be jailed for inciting violence.

      • Chefofsinners

        Except that a lot of radicalisation seems to happen in jail. What would the Saudis do? Cut their tongues out probably.

        • They can be put in separate wings for terrorists and radicalised only then they wont have anyone to brainwash.

          • Merchantman

            We can find somewhere suitable I’m sure like parts of Syria with an impenetrable fence around it.

          • I don’ think Assad would want them either.

    • Manfarang
      • Anton

        I said simply start by recategorising it as a political group. Whether it gets onto the list that you helpfully cite depends on further factors after that.

        • Manfarang

          Should Christianity be regarded as a political movement because there are Christian Democrat parties?

          • Anton

            There aren’t in this country. I couldn’t care less about the continent.

          • Manfarang

            There is the Christian Peoples Alliance in the UK.

          • Anton

            How many constituencies do they fight?

          • Manfarang

            They are a registered party.

          • Anton

            Big deal. Gospel Christianity is about being changed by god in a way that one cannot do for oneself. Nothing political about that, is there?

          • Manfarang

            That change may still require a lot of will power.

          • Anton

            If you think that then you genuinely don’t understand gospel Christianity. “Not my will but thine”.

          • Manfarang

            23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

          • Anton

            Indeed. What I am saying is that your will is fallen. So you need it replacing in you by God’s will. That obviously can’t be done as an act of your will.

          • Grace doesn’t “replace” a man’s will. We can each resist grace or cooperate with God.

          • Anton

            As Calvinism vs Arminianism is too simplistic a categorisation, I’m not going to agree or disagree. My point is simply that Christianity is about having your will crucified and replaced in you by God’s will.

          • Not Arminianism – Christianity. Jack is a Catholic who rejects both Arminianism and Calvinism. learn the difference.

          • Anton

            I know that Arminius was a protestant. But you take his side in the debate about Free Will. I refuse to take sides.

          • Jack does not take Arminius’ side at all. You clearly do not comprehend the Catholic understanding of predestination. Here’s a short summary.

            https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2017/06/03/reblog-salvation-predestination-reprobation-and-free-will/

            It’s not a question of “sides”. It’s a matter of what’s consistent with what we know about the revealed nature of God and His plan for our salvation.

          • Anton

            That it’s not a question of sides is *exactly* what I am saying! I don’t need Mundabor on Rome on predestination; I know what Arminius says and I know what you say.

          • If that is the case then why did you write:

            “As Calvinism vs Arminianism is too simplistic a categorisation, I’m not going to agree or disagree”?

            Both these man made theologies are mistaken and unbiblical. Notwithstanding God’s sovereignty and the impossibility of salvation without the free and unmerited gift of grace, Catholicism acknowledges man’s free will.

            You would do well to research Catholicism position on predestination.

          • Anton

            Thank you for your advice.

            To ask the question you did shows that you have misunderstood me.

          • Rather, you don’t understand the Catholic position at all and when Jack points this out, you claim he’s misunderstanding you.

            At root of a difference between protestants and Catholics is this issue of how to square God’s sovereignty and the impossibility of salvation without free and unmerited grace, with man’s free will. Scripture appears to support contradictory positions, yet we know it cannot. So it has to be read and studied.
            To Jack’s mind, the only scriptural and reasoned resolution of the apparent paradox between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will, is the one held by the Catholic Church. Yet, even she has chosen not to rule definitively on the matter but to set certain theological ‘red-lines’ in this reasoning and interpretative process. This process being prayer, study, dialogue, all conducted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as God reveals His full Truth to us indefectibly and infallibly through her.
            So no, Jack doesn’t misunderstand you. Rather you either do not fully understand your own position or you do not have one. For you, it’s probably one of those issues that scripture does not fully answer – like the Trinity and Incarnation – so best left to individuals to hold their own private opinions rather than create division by authoritatively imposing an interpretation that adds to scripture. The problem is that this question of God’s sovereignty, predestination and free will, is so critical to our reading of scripture and our understanding of God as revealed in scripture that it cannot be left to individuals. God commissioned His Church to feed and lead His people and Jesus was absolutely clear that God’s authority

          • Martin

            HJ

            But happily accepts the semi pelagianism of his teachers. Note you admit your reject Calvinism, since that is what the Bible teaches,

          • Semi-pelagianism is a heresy long rejected by the Church, as is Calvinism.

          • Martin

            HJ

            Semi-pelagianism is the basis of your sect’s soteriology, having rejected salvation by faith alone. Calvinism is salvation by faith alone, what the Bible teaches.

          • Nonsense. Catholics believe salvation is an unmerited gift from God. Sufficient grace is offered to all for salvation but it only becomes efficacious for those who respond positively. It is you who rejects scripture.

          • Martin

            HJ

            So you’re saying the grace of God is only sufficient if the sinner does something. That isn’t what Scripture, or Clement, says. Your doctrine is semi-Pelagianism.

          • Not if it is the Holy Spirit who enables us to respond positively. We can reject God.

          • Martin

            HJ

            We already have, but when God determines to save us we will be saved.

          • Manfarang

            14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

          • David

            They are a tiny, weeny party. Some years ago I attended one of their meetings in London and there was barely 30 present – in London !

          • Royinsouthwest

            Are they terrorists?

          • Manfarang

            Unless they are part of the Ugandan Lords Army.

    • Then what? Would you ban membership of Islam because it is a political movement?

      • Anton

        That depends on various factors, but it reflects an important truth that is presently being ignored and is therefore a good start.

        • You do realise such a response would play directly into the hands of the extremists.

          • Anton

            Who are “the extremists”, Jack?

            So it gets worse if we do nothing and it gets worse if we do something?

          • What is that supposed to mean? What “truth” is being “ignored”? It’s not “courage” to turn on a whole religion because of a minority murderous fanatics. It’s exactly what they want.

          • Anton

            And you would do what? Nothing, I suppose, as usual.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Doing nothing plays into their hands by making us weak and despicable in their eyes.

          • Maybe in the eyes of the minority of extremists. Not all Muslims hate.

          • Merchantman

            Of course not all Muslims hate its just they are led by something that does. Love the sinner; hate the sin, touch

    • Objection, that’s grossly unfair and unjust. Labour lump everyone in together regardless.

      • Anton

        ?

        That’s what I said!

        • Sorry, but I also don’t think Islam should be reclassified into a political movement. It will grow just as much as there are increasing numbers of Muslims here regardless of what it is classified as.

          • Anton

            It *is* a political movement and ignoring truth is never a good idea even if recognising it requires some courage.

          • Lucius

            You cannot divorce the socio-political component of Islam from its religious component. It was deliberately designed that way by Muhammad, who sought both spiritual and earthly power. With Islam, the political and religious movement proceed in tandem. I agree with Anton.

          • It’s both political and spiritual and it’s criminal, or should be.
            We need to get rid of it.

          • Christianity has a political dimension too, as do all worldviews.

          • Merchantman

            The RC Church is certainly political. Christianity is not and not according to Jesus. ‘My kingdom is not of this world’.

          • Anton

            My Christianity is about being changed from the inside by God in a way I could not do for myself. Yours might be different, of course.

          • Merchantman

            It has protection as a religion it wont have as political movement.

    • Inspector General

      Labour will do no such thing. It will do NOTHING to upset its Islamic supporters and there are legions of those…

    • Merchantman

      That would be Trump’s best way of selling his Muslim ban too. Get the Supreme court to rule on both. His right to ban countries and consequently Islam as political movement. Two birds one stone.

  • Royinsouthwest

    The Iranian government seems much less inhibited than Prime Minister Maybe in identifying the root of our problem.

    Iran says London attacks ‘wake up call’, urges uprooting terrorism sources
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-iran-idUKKBN18V0NX

    Iran said on Sunday the London attacks were a “wake-up call” and urged Western states to go after ideological and financial sources of terrorism, state media reported, in a thinly veiled reference to Saudi Arabia.

    Iran said on Sunday the London attacks were a “wake-up call” and urged Western states to go after ideological and financial sources of terrorism, state media reported, in a thinly veiled reference to Saudi Arabia.

    • bluedog

      It seems the Iranian analysis is better than that of Donald Trump and the rest of the West. But then The Donald had just signed a defence agreement that have him USD 350 billion reasons to hail the virtues of the Saudi Islamic tyranny.

  • Chefofsinners

    If you want this problem actually, really dealt with, there is only one choice on Thursday. Once again, register your disgust with the political elite by voting UKIP.

    • One of your better jokes.

    • Manfarang

      There won’t be many voting for Ukip in Northern Ireland.

  • len

    The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob suffered on the Cross so that people could be saved through Him.
    Jesus came to give us life, His Life.
    ‘Allah’ the god of Islam seems to hold a fascination to some who’s only aim is to spread death and destruction.

  • Ray Spring

    Some years ago the BNP were pretty active in Dagenham. To stop the rot, I mean Nick Griffen could have been elected to Westminster, ‘enrichment’ was visited upon Dagenham by Govt. Move on to the present, and the moderate Moslems from Dagenham, well that is where the police are arresting people, have just staged a bit of home-grown activism. The BNP people were forced to move from Dagenham or shut up. A very good example of the road to hell being paved with something or another. God Help England.

  • David

    I don’t want to highjack Cranmer’s site with this diversion, but readers may benefit by knowing there was an excellent sermon for Pentecost, yesterday, posted by Rev’d Gavin Ashenden of U – Tube. As you’d expect on Pentecost it centres on the role of the Holy Spirit in bringing guidance, healing and revival. He comments on the weakness of the politicised C of E., which having lost contact with the Holy Spirit, has turned instead to a false political agenda, such as equality. Gavin also mentions the terrorist evil acted out in London, and emanating from Islam.

  • prompteetsincere

    Before Southwark Cathedral was closed “presumably on police advice”
    It was open on politically correct advice:the wisdom of the Red-Green ummah.

  • Anna

    There seems to be a link between society’s tolerance of gay relationships and certain events, as is obvious to even secular writers-
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3661413/DOMINIC-LAWSON-architects-Project-Fear-pay-shameful-lies.html

    It is a pity that a ‘Christian’ like Jayne Ozanne cannot see this. Talk about blind guides! Nations as well as individuals are coming under judgment for flouting God’s law. Theresa May’s position seemed unshakeable till she decided to pronounce her views on gay sex. Only if Christian leaders would open their eyes to discern what has led to these terrorists attacks, and speak up for the truth rather than political expediency.