John McDonnell - IRA2
Democracy

Labour has become the party of terrorists, extremists and radical revolutionaries

 

“We now have a leader who is as extreme and as hard left as any leader we have ever had including Keir Hardie. We have got a leader who is sympathetic to, and supports, and calls his friends, people with fascist views in the Middle East. We have got a shadow chancellor (John McDonnell) who supported the IRA terror campaign, and the members of the Labour Party are entirely comfortable with that.”

So spake the eloquent and astute (and Christian) Tom Harris, (very sadly) former Labour MP for Glasgow South and now Director of Third Avenue Communications, on hearing that not only is the new Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn a friend of terrorists, conspiracy theorists and holocaust deniers, but the new Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell praises the bombs and bullets of the IRA.

And it wasn’t during the ‘troubles’ of the 1970s: it was as recently as 2003, when he spoke at gathering to honour the sacrifice of IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands. He told the assembled crowd:

“It’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table.”

There was no misunderstanding; no retraction and apology; and no appeal to having ‘misspoken’. Indeed, he subsequently justified his comments in the Guardian.

Talking in terms republicans would understand, I told the harsh truth that the negotiations on the future of Northern Ireland would not be taking place if it had not been for the military action of the IRA..

..We have to face up to the fact that without the armed uprising in 1916 Britain would not have withdrawn from southern Ireland. And without the armed struggle of the IRA over the past 30 years, the Good Friday agreement would not have acknowledged the legitimacy of the aspirations of many Irish people for a united Ireland. And without that acknowledgment we would have no peace process.

Yes, he condemned their “unforgivable atrocities” and abhors “the killing of innocent human beings”. But the expository justification of his comments is as morally bankrupt as the comments themselves. He explains his logic:

My argument was that republicans had the right to honour those who had brought about this process of negotiation which had led to peace.

They may have “had the right”: we live in a liberal democracy which permits the freedom to support terrorists, to the apparent extent of inviting the IRA’s political wing to take tea and cake in Parliament – a whole decade before the ceasefire and very shortly after their attempted assassination of Margaret Thatcher and her entire Cabinet in Brighton. Indeed, John McDonnell shares a certain Sinn Féin seditious ideology: he has said that he would be glad to “go back to the 1980s and assassinate Thatcher“. This is a man about to be sworn of Her Majesty’s Privy Council.

The freedom of Irish Republican terrorists to honour their dead does not mean that their victims ought to accord them the same honour. If “it’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle (because) it was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table”, why should we not honour all who bomb their way to the New Jerusalem (or the Caliphate)?

The IRA were (and seemingly still are) the cause of intolerable personal grief and social pain. Their mode of resistance was unequivocally brutal and violent. A senior democratic politician who is not committed to the orderly management of society and the rule of law is not, by definition, a democrat. John McDonnell prefers to portray the British State as the oppressive overlord, thereby giving succour not only to continuing IRA terrorism, but to Islamism. As Bobby Sands once groaned under his slavery to the British, so Anjem Choudary (inter alia) cries out to Allah for justice and liberty under sharia.

True religion seeks to remove the source of pain, which is ultimately the violence of Cain. True religion pursues a peaceful, spiritual progress toward God. The struggle for righteousness begins with the acknowledgment that rebellion against the existing order disrupts divinely-ordained peace. Violent solutions to political conflicts have their place in a world of conflict and lordless powers, but only when they are the ultimate, unavoidable and sole possibility for resolution available. And never, ever, should that violence purposely violate the absolute immunity of innocent noncombatants.

Neither the IRA nor the Islamist seek to protect the innocent. John McDonnell may ease his conscience with an appeal to political decency wrapped in diplomatic language, but it is neither moral nor virtuous to “honour” those who murder, maim, kidnap and torture. It is neither just nor right to “honour” those who favour the bullet and the bomb over the ballot box.

The Shadow Chancellor, like the Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, is tainted with the coercive forces of civil unrest and the bloody struggles of democratic disobedience. There can be no forgiveness, peace or lasting reconciliation when senior politicians are blind to the nature and extent of permissible protest. Indeed, by “honouring” the IRA, you give political sustenance to armed jihad. Would we really tolerate Prime Minister Corbyn standing at the government dispatch box in four years’ time and declaring: “It was the bombs and beheadings and sacrifices made by the likes of Jihadi John, Reyaad Khan and Ruhul Amin that brought Britain to the negotiating table”?

  • bluedog

    Given Jeremy Corbyn’s enthusiastic embrace of Hamas, Iran and his charming friend in Buenos Aires, one has to assume that McDonnell’s comments are fully endorsed by the Leader of the Her Majesty’s dis-Loyal Opposition. Perhaps there is a terrorist hugging competition between the two men, nothing would surprise.

    Put Corbyn Labour together with Sturgeon SNP and the British state is suddenly facing some very real dangers from enemies within, quite apart from the external enemies above. Then there is the threat from our very good friends in Berlin to recreate the Wehrmacht and would we please look the other way while they do.

    One is tempted to encourage Brother Corbyn to keep bicycling to work, all the more to savour the adulation of the proletariat and others, or not.

    • CliveM

      Best buddies, use to share a flat together.

    • “Put Corbyn Labour together with Sturgeon SNP…”

      Imagine the child of that union. In a strange way, Corbyn’s election may actually weaken the threat of Scottish independence.

      • CliveM

        Well we will be able to measure any impact on that at the next Scottish Parliamentary elections. Not far off.

      • IanCad

        You’ve got me there Jack.
        Why would that be?

        • Discretion prevents Jack from offering a description.

  • CliveM

    Now that the Pale Ale has gone flat and the cigarette smoke has started to clear, there will be a few Labour members looking at this going “s*^t what have we done.”

    Labour is in a terrible mess, worse then 1983.

    • dannybhoy

      Best let the party die then Clive.

      • CliveM

        I won’t be sad to see the back of it. It will be interesting to see what takes its place. UK politics could be in for some interesting times, just not the way Corbyn will be hoping.

  • Phil R

    The Tories have stolen Labour’s clothes.

    So why are we surprised?

    And if he gathers support who is to blame?

    • Murti Bing

      “The Tories have stolen Labour’s clothes.”

      They may have ransacked the wardrobe, but it looks like they left the tattered old rags behind. And no wonder.

  • Mike Stallard

    This is the end of the spinning politicians in their sharp clothes and their half truths and their evasive answers and their cold hearted ambition at the expense of us.
    The future?
    Nigel Farage, La Sturgeon, Jelly Corbyn.
    All run from Brussels/Berlin.

    • Anton

      Farage run from Brussels??

      • Mike Stallard

        Of course not in the sense you mean. What I meant was that the British government takes an awful lot of its brilliant initiatives straight from Brussels.

  • dannybhoy

    One of the best websites for understanding the IRA…
    http://markhumphrys.com/sfira.tyranny.html
    Connections with Libya’s Gadaffi
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12539372
    And also Iran..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12539372

    • CliveM

      Good web sites.

    • Ivan M

      Why blame Gadafi and Iran when it was actually Irish-American money and propaganda that was the real driver of the IRA? The American connection was obvious to everyone then.. It just like the Jewish-American support for Israel through thick and thin. Compounded as it was through guilt, misunderstanding of history, and grandfathers’ tales.

  • carl jacobs

    Interesting. He didn’t mention the connections between the IRA and the Nazis in World War II. I wonder why he didn’t mention that? He managed to go all the way back to 1916. Why did he overlook 1940?

    And did I get this right? Did he really praise the IRA for forcing the Good Friday Agreement by “armed struggle” in Northern Ireland? Without IRA terrorism in Northern Ireland, there wouldn’t have been a reason for the Good Friday Agreement. He is praising the IRA for negotiating about the very violence the IRA created in the first place. So this amounts to saying “It was a good thing the IRA used terrorism as a lever to achieve some measure of political power.”

    What we have here is a claim that (certain approved) groups can set off bombs in crowded city streets in order to achieve political goals. After all. It was the British that made them do it.

    • CliveM

      It is hard not to come to the view that he hates his country.

      • Inspector General

        Wouldn’t say he particularly hates his country, he more hates the system that puts food on his table and enabled his parents to give him a private education.

        • CliveM

          Ok that as well, but otherwise I stand by my original comment.

    • CliveM

      One of the features of our Parliamentary system is that as the Leader of the Opposition he is entitled to be routinely informed about threats, capabilities and responses.

      Guess where these threats will be coming from? The IRA (those brave freedom fighters! Will a Corbyn Govt issue them with a campaign medal?), Hamas, IS, Russia and others.

      All friends and best buddies of said new Leader of the Opposition. I suspect that US National Security will be looking towards the current UK Govt, to confirm that nothing supplied by them will be forwarded to Mr Corbyn. Or else some intelligence sharing will be lost.

      I don’t know if the rule is law (unlikely) or convention, but frankly it needs changed.

    • Ivan M

      Terrorism works . Ask Begin. Ask Yigal Allon. And before them ask the Bolsheviks and the Decembrists. Heck ask the Nazis.

  • sarky

    What’s everyone so worried about? I doubt he’ll be here this time next year, let alone around to fight an election. Pretty sure the ‘suits’ in labour are already plotting and sharpening their knives.

    • CliveM

      Don’t think to many are worried, stunned more like!

      • sarky

        Really? Think it was obvious that after the disaster of Ed Millipede that the labour supporters would look for someone more authentically labour and Corbyn fitted the bill. It could have been anyone who wasnt perceived part of the Hampstead Heath set.

        • CliveM

          I was also thinking Shadow Chancellor. To put someone that controversial (to be kind ) in such a key role, surprised me.

          It seems like a death wish to me.

          • sarky

            It is. Like I said I’d have a wager on it being all change within a year.

          • CliveM

            Well I won’t bet against that.

          • CliveM

            Actually thinking about it Labour is in a right mess. Just think how explosive it would be to dump him? Unless he went voluntarily there would be absolute civil war. If he stood for re-election he would probably win.

            The unions would go ballistic and they are the paymasters.

            No getting rid of him, if he doesn’t want to go, will be problematic at least.

            And why would he want to go ?

          • Anton

            To spend more time with his family?

          • CliveM

            Family comes a distant second to politics.

          • William Lewis

            He has a huge mandate!

  • Merchantman

    The real question is; why is this outbreak happening now?
    On the face of it there should be a lull in the threat of revolution from these sorts of types.
    The question these types should consider is how would the country react?

  • Inspector General

    As it happens, what McDonnell says is true. In the late 1960s / 1970s, the Stormont government effectively said to the Catholics, “You will continue to be treated as second class citizens and there will most certainly not be any power sharing unless you engage in an armed struggle, so off you go”. McDonnell though is a fool to think he could have voiced that truth without it reflecting badly on him and badly on his party. Instead, he should have smugly kept his mouth shut, and be contented that he knew something that must never be aired in public. In other words, to possess that most basic of requirements for a politician – to be able to keep a secret.

    However, when Cranmer today equates home Islamic terrorism with Irish nationalist terrorism, he will struggle to keep the connection going. There is a world of difference in being of the indigenous people of a country, and being politically despised for merely existing by Elizabethan plantees who took over the place, and the aspirations to bring Sharia law into the UK as part of alien immigration and colonisation of a country by said aliens. Surely, we can now understand what the Irish have had to put up with for hundreds of years, as the British themselves are subjected to an increasing and unwelcome assault on the very institutions that make up our society. What happened to the Irish will, we are assured by demographics, eventually happen here, to a degree of which we cannot yet be sure about.

    But there is hope. Some hope. If the Islamists in this country can be assured they will be left alone within their areas of settlement, mainly the inner cities, then perhaps the bombs won’t go off in the future, if they feel they are afforded what the indigenous Irish never were – respect.

    • “The IRA claimed to be Catholic. They were baptized. They had a Catholic identity. But, what they were doing was a perversion of everything the church stood for.”
      (Cardinal Dolan)

      Following a Sinn Féin conference in Dublin in December 1969, the IRA divided into “Official” and “Provisional” wings. Both factions were committed to a united socialist Irish republic, the Official IRA preferred parliamentary tactics and eschewed violence, whereas the Provisional IRA believed that violence and terrorism was a necessary part of the struggle to rid Ireland of the British.

      Beginning in 1970, the Provos carried out bombings, assassinations, and ambushes in a campaign they called the “Long War.” In 1973 they expanded their attacks to create terror in mainland Britain. It was estimated that, between 1969 and 1994, the IRA killed about 1,800 people, including approximately 600 civilians.

      • Oh, and your proposed “solution” for Islam, known as “communitarianism”, allows each faith community its own version of public space. But communitarianism means the further disintegration of the cultural system of the nation as a whole. The phrase “the community” must signify first and foremost the national community, which is the form humanity has taken under Providence.

        • Inspector General

          Fragmentation of the cultural system as a whole was an unforeseen development from mass alien immigration. Or was it unforeseen? Best ask members of the last Labour government, the ones who said “we rubbed the Tories nose in it under the immigration we allowed”, or words to that effect…

          • Anton

            I have no wish to involve myself in the discussion of matters Irish between you and Jack, but the quote you are looking for here is from Andrew Neather. a No.10 speechwriter in the Blair era; you can google him.

          • They are matters moral about terrorism rather than “matters Irish”, Anton.

          • Anton

            Not disagreeing!

      • Inspector General

        Come on Jack, you’re not a journalist for the Daily Express. Tell it as it was. The IRA was nothing until 1971. A few dozen activists in the north. The people placed everything on civil rights marches, until the paratroopers illegally killed marchers. That was the end of peaceful protest, and who could blame them. The very idea of being shot dead on a march, for God’s sake.

        By the way, exactly what did 4 years of civil rights marches extract from Stormont. Nothing at all, in concessions. They were beaten by the B Specials with their 3 foot truncheons, and had nothing to show for it.

        So you concentrate on the exploits of a ghastly organisation. Why do you do that, when the full story is in the public domain….

        • “The very idea of being shot dead on a march, for God’s sake.”
          You know Jack is correct Inspector. Look at the numbers of people murdered in the various outrages perpetrated by the Provisional IRA.

          • Inspector General

            Ah, one now understands. Instead of understanding how the IRA transformed from the nuisance organisation it was in the early 1960s to become the trusted defender of Catholic interests and indeed their lives 10 years later, you are out for point scoring. Well, here’s one from the Inspectorate. May you accumulate many more…

          • Terrorism is violence dressed in political ideology, religious belief, or ethnic or tribal loyalty. The deliberate taking of life through premeditated attacks on innocent people is murder.
            It can never be justified.

            Paddy Ashdown once posed the question: “If I had been a Catholic, discriminated against in the way they were in Northern Ireland, would I have been a member of Sinn Fein or the IRA? Given my hot nature and my slightly romantic view of life, it’s quite difficult to say that you can completely discount the fact.”

            He did not condone the IRA, describing them as “murderers of the first order”, but he believes “… you are the child of your circumstances. If you were brought up in a community that has been discriminated against and has had their human rights denied, what are you going to do? I imagine at the very least I would have been a political activist on behalf of Sinn Fein. Whether you tip that over into something else, I can’t tell you – but I ask myself the question.”

            When the Irish Republican Army set off bombs in shopping areas of England and Northern Ireland, there were Catholics of Irish descent who did not speak out in opposition or cease to provide financial support to the organization. When Palestinians with complaints against Israeli policies became suicide bombers who attacked shopping districts and crowded commuter buses, the outcry of condemnation coming from non-Jews was often muted.

            A paramount lesson when dealing with terrorism is to be clear about its wrongfulness by reaffirming the ban on attacking innocent civilians. Terrorism is a crime against humanity, and no Christian ought to be an apologist for, or even reluctant sympathizer with, terrorist violence.

            There’s an Irish joke:

            ”A visitor to Belfast was in a pub. On ordering a Guinness, the landlord asked, “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?” “Neither,” replied the man; “I’m an atheist.” Not content with this answer, the landlord put a further question:“Ah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”

          • Ivan M

            What happened to the Irishman who went to London to blow up buses?
            He burnt his lips.

    • William Lewis

      “However, when Cranmer today equates home Islamic terrorism with Irish nationalist terrorism, he will struggle to keep the connection going.”

      The IRA has never had any problem equating themselves with Islamic terrorism, so why should you, Inspector?

      • Inspector General

        William, if one remembers from long ago when you first appeared, you are of the province. Islamic terrorism is many notches up on the what the IRA did, as well you know. For the record, this man has nothing to do, or ever did have, with those desperates and their campaign of death to the security forces or any of their destructions. But that does not stop a fellow from understanding why what happened did happen.

        • William Lewis

          I was not saying that you were involved in Irish nationalist atrocities, Inspector, just that there are clear links between the IRA and Islamic terrorist organisations. But perhaps we deduce from your original comment that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter? For the record, this man is English, born and bred.

          • Inspector General

            If you mean the Gadhafi time, then that was hardly a meeting of minds…

          • William Lewis

            Gaddafi, Hezbollah, Hamas.

          • Inspector General

            They offered help to the scoundrels. That’s why they are scoundrels, among other the evils they did. if you want to tie in the IRA with Islamic terrorism, then off you go. Don’t expect too much in the way of agreement.

          • Fruit from the same evil tree, Inspector.

    • Anton

      The ‘planting’ took place in the early years of James I, not Elizabeth.

      • Inspector General

        It’s known as the Elizabethan plantation.

      • Old Nick

        So it is a Scotch problem, not an English one

        • Anton

          In fuller detail, Henry VIII was determined to reimpose rule from London on Ireland – a rule which had varied in extent since Henry II first invaded it. By the end of Elizabeth’s reign this had been done, by force. Previous settlers in Ireland had tended to “go native” but those who were “planted” early in James’ reign from London now maintained their overlordship, especially the Scottish presbyterians who crossed to Ulster. Those are the roots of the Troubles.

          • Old Nick

            Thank you for that helpful expansion. The Anglicans in the South to a large extent have bowed out, surviving in the pages of the Irish R.M.. The Ulster problem is therefore a Caledonian matter (and Stranraer to Larne is a pretty narrow stretch of water, as any reader of Old Mortality might agree). As such it should be placed firmly on the plate of those who wish Scotland to be independent.

          • Anton

            Offer Scotland independence provided that they will take Ulster too? Interesting idea!

          • Old Nick

            That is my (no doubt irresponsible) thought

  • chiefofsinners

    Attacking Labour at the moment is like shooting fish in a barrel. Not much fun because it’s so easy. What’s more the fish are killing each other.
    I don’t know whether to assist them to die or offer palliative care.

    • Phil R

      “What’s more the fish are killing each other”

      What fish are left get bigger,,,,,,

      Don’t forget Conservative Labour lost 2 elections

      Communist Labour might also lose elections.

      We will see.

  • William Lewis

    As the Tories rush to occupy the centre ground even more perhaps our Nige can introduce some true conservative succour?

  • Phil R

    The key must be the BBC.

    I bet they are already sitting around in meetings deciding how they will subtly (Or not!) support Corbyn.

    A bet a whole pile of sympathetic documentaries and costume dramas are already planned. With the scriptwriters told to slowly manipulate public opinion in the new direction.

    Surprised? Well you should not be. It is only a speeding up of the existing media social engineering.

    • chiefofsinners

      Costume dramas?
      Downtown Abbey?
      Little Women? A sensitive study of gender equality in the shadow cabinet
      Gone with the Wind? A drama about climate change that will blow you away.

      • Anton

        1984

        • chiefofsinners

          Up Pompeii

          • Q: What would happen if a socialist republic were established in the middle of the Sahara desert?

            A: Within three years, it would have to import sand.

          • Neihan

            I am stealing this joke from you, Jack. I cannot promise to give you credit.

          • Feel free, friend.

            Q: What is a sardine?

            A: A whale after ten years of socialism.

      • “Only Fools and Horses” is already scheduled for a special.

        “You plonker, Jeremy!!”

        • chiefofsinners

          QE for the people! This time next year we’ll all be millionaires.

  • Redrose82

    Over the weekend I celebrated my 87th birthday and I did so in the happy knowledge that however many more years the good Lord grants me it is highly unlikely that I shall ever again have to suffer a Labour government

    • chiefofsinners

      Likewise. I’m 23.

      • CliveM

        Ha, ha. Not entirely sure I believe you!

      • IanCad

        If, Sir! you are but a youth, then the prospect of future political fame is on the cards for you. Still finding your feet, but with an already broad mind you stand apart from the mass of the self-obsessed of all ages.
        Maybe the genes of Pitt are flowing in your blood.
        Now, if you can apply your talents toward dissuading your fellows from embracing any notion of legislation via referendum; Will truly advocate for Representative Government; Will cast scorn on all who would diminish the liberties of this land. Then hope may flourish in this shallow, conformist and obedient state.

        • chiefofsinners

          Yo. For real innit.

  • Orwell Ian

    Can Comrade Corbyn consolidate his position and get an iron grip on the party machine? Having made the revolution, is he ruthless enough to establish the dictatorship and purge the party of its NuLab tendency? I suspect that he is neither able nor powerful enough, in which case the recently sidelined, assisted by their acolytes, corporatist sympathisers and EU pals will make sure they set him up to fail in good time for them to regain control for the 2020 election campaign.

    • chiefofsinners

      If the EU referendum is lost the government will fall before 2020.

      • CliveM

        Cameron probably but not necessarily the Govt .

        • chiefofsinners

          Like this.
          The referendum goes against Cameron.
          His authority is in tatters.
          To honour the manifesto commitment he has to bring forward a bill to leave the EU.
          Every other party votes against, plus about half the Conservatives. The bill is defeated.
          The other half of the Conservative party is incensed.
          Corbyn lays down a vote of no confidence.
          The government falls.

          The least likely event in this series is the first one. The rest are dominoes.

          • CliveM

            In such a situation I don’t think every other party would vote against and if they did they wouldn’t rush to visit the electorate.

          • chiefofsinners

            But there is a clear majority in the House for staying in the EU.
            If they can go against public opinion on assisted dying, why not on the EU? We live in turbulent times.

          • Inspector General

            Against public opinion on assisted dying? Sir, you speak out of hand…

          • chiefofsinners

            Maybe. As last night’s article made clear, public opinion has not been accurately measured.

          • Inspector General

            Then it is true, You speak nonsense…

          • chiefofsinners

            A flawed survey concluded 80% of the public in favour. It’s just a question of which do you weigh heavier – the flaws or the 80%. My judgement is that the majority of public opinion is in favour.

          • Inspector General

            Have you learned nothing of polls, sir? And are we with a government the polls did not predict…

          • chiefofsinners

            Margins of error. The general election polls were a few % out.

          • Inspector General

            Don’t mention the election to the Lib Dems, if they still exist…

          • chiefofsinners

            Taxi!

          • You are probably correct.

            “However, I must notice that nowhere have I noticed the debate put in a Christian frame. The main problem was the protection of the suicide. This once greatest taboo of them all has now become simply non-existent. The debate was largely secular, even when it came from people who are religious (Catholic prelate) or say they are (Anglican clowns). The entire discussion was mainly centred about the easy abuse of any legal opening to suicide. The evil of suicide wasn’t part of the wider debate. God was just forgotten or, rather, ignored.

            This is a very bad sign. The debate is already framed in a way that must, in time, cause the satanic measure to prevail in some way. The “right to die” meme is now firmly anchored in the collective consciousness of the Britons. The perception that one has, in principle, a “right to die” is clearly mainstream. It is now largely a question of protection: that is, a question of a good compromise between conflicting rights, in which the right to die is now seen by vast parts of the population as a legitimate part of the equation.

            This country has become so secular that even people who call themselves church people fail to direct the attention – actually, have no intention of even trying – on what God says. The usual words “weak”, “vulnerable”, “protection”, “guarantees”, “right”, are tossed about with no reference at all to a religious frame.

            The law did not pass, but this debate is lost already. Unless the cultural climate changes, the attention will be directed at giving better protection to the vulnerable, not at avoiding the suicide. As the years go by many who still have vestiges of religious feeling will die, and many for whom a man is his own god will reach voting age. Unavoidably, a suicide law will be passed some day.

            In the meantime, we will continue with today’s practice, with the Crown Prosecution Service showing no intention whatever to crack down on those who abet and assist terminally ill suicides. It will continue to be a dark zone of tolerated suicide, seen by many and prosecuted by none, provided the involved parties keep their mouth shut.

            Britain is still on its way to hell. The pace is merely somewhat slower than already feared.”

            https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/right-to-die-britain-still-on-its-way-to-hell/

          • chiefofsinners

            You’re absolutely right about this. I think the campaign against assisted suicide focused on the fact that God’s laws are demonstrably good and right, while secularists will ruin this life, never mind the next. It’s the simplest way to win the day and restrain evil. In the general run of things, though, we have to proclaim God’s truth as absolute, rather than just expedient.

          • CliveM

            Because assisted suicide never went to referendum.

          • chiefofsinners

            By that logic, every MP will vote in line with the referendum result, whichever way it goes.
            Really?

          • CliveM

            Except in the case of nationalist MP’s who will claim local mandates and in Scotland’s case that is likely to be a vote to stay in the EU, I would say yes (or abstain).

          • chiefofsinners

            Oh well, let’s concentrate on the referendum. One step at a time.

          • Inspector General

            The Conservative MPs did not split over SSM. Think about that…

          • chiefofsinners

            Yes they did. It was Labour what won it.

          • Inspector General

            There was no challenge to the leadership. They had their free vote and maintained ranks.

          • chiefofsinners

            See what you mean. But this would be different – the referendum won and their fellow Conservatives failing to honour it… with a nod and a wink from Cameron. John Redwood and Liam Fox wouldn’t stand for that.

          • Inspector General

            It’s too big not to honour…

          • chiefofsinners

            That’s what they’re saying about Corbyn’s result. We’ll see.

      • Orwell Ian

        A lost referendum would not bring the government down because a referendum majority for leaving the EU was never going to be honoured by Cameron anyway. The Tory manifesto only said they ‘will respect the outcome’ which is code for ‘we will ignore the result if you vote the wrong way.’

        A bigger danger to the government is a concerted attack on its austerity policy by organised labour. Strikes are already being plotted by Trade Union chiefs. Part of the “Corbyn Effect.”

        • Old Nick

          They have been plotted for some time. What else were the Tube and Great Western strikes over the summer but the prelude to a fully orchestrated Winter of Discontent, probably next year – all done for political purposes and not for the benefit of members of unions.

      • Redrose82

        Why? Did the SNP government in Scotland fall when they lost the referendum?

      • Anton

        The EU might dissolve in the same time period. Financial and refugee strains…

        • chiefofsinners

          Don’t! Hope leaps out to dreams such as these.

    • dannybhoy

      This is a political flash in the pan and will be flushed away down the toilet of history before very long.
      It’s quite possible that Mr Corbyn himself will crumble under the stress of leadership surrounded by young and ambitious lefties wanting to make a name for themselves..
      He is not a young man, he is not an outgoing personality. He often has a slightly worried look -similar to myself when I was awaiting the results of that last colonoscopy.. (which was fine, btw)
      Labour has shot itself in the foot, and it won’t be long before the screaming starts…

  • Inspector General

    Cranmer, dear chap. Your “Chat, fellowship and cyber-coffee” facility is off line. Has been for a few hours now…

    • All working this end..

      • Inspector General

        Yes, here too now.

  • Inspector General

    By the way, fellows, one understands that the new shadow cabinet has a majority of women for the first time. Good show, that disciple of Marx.

    One wonders what else is in the feminist friendly socialist strategy water paints book of governance…

    • IanCad

      Maybe he learned from Cameron.

      Remember the all-women constituency shortlists?

  • David

    Speaking strata-graphically as it were, I suggest that the era of Comrade Corb will be seen as but a brief period, which nevertheless brought to a conclusive end, the Blair plus Mandelson era of spin, obfuscation and a certain type of naive, short term, blundering, incompetence.
    That has obvious attractions, especially if a newly rediscovered sincerity is encouraged widely, within the rest of the body politic, but that is a big If I’ve identified.
    Quite what follows on from that thin seam of “Corb” time, I have no idea.
    We sail uncharted seas I fear.