Kevin Lord Shinkwin
Politicians

Kevin (Lord) Shinkwin appointed to Equality and Human Rights Commission

Every now and again, a perfectly square political peg finds a sharp-cornered square hole. The officer and the office, the doer and the thing done, fit so exactly that the angels in heaven rejoice.

The appointment of Lord Shinkwin as a Commissioner for the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is wonderful for him and good news for all who care about conservative and Christian apprehensions of equality, rights and justice. He is not only devout in his Christian faith, but tireless in the application of his theology to the cause of conservative philosophy. He has lived with a severe disability since birth, and has worked to tackle disability discrimination throughout his career. And that includes disabled children in the womb, for that is among the most ethically incoherent of our equality hypocrisies.

“There’s something deeply disturbing about non-disabled politicians spouting equality and then in the same breath defending a law which is being used as a licence to kill for the crime of being disabled,” he told the House of Lords at the introduction of his Bill to end disability-selective abortion up-to-birth. At the moment, of course, healthy babies may be aborted only up to 24 weeks, but if they are found to be disabled there is no upper limit at all. Kevin Shinkwin could have been legally terminated the day before he was born, along with many of our magnificent Paralympians.

“I ask what message it sends if, after birth, I’m good enough for the House of Lords but, before birth, I’m only good enough for the incinerator,” he probed. No one wanted to challenge his logic, of course. Their Lordships shuffled on the red benches, but the incarnate congenital disability was no match for the eradication-by-abortion ideology.

“The institutional prejudice runs so deep that the whole system is in denial,” Lord Shinkwin hammered. “What hope for worried parents or their disabled babies?”

None at all: the disabled out of the womb have rights, but within the womb they have not only fewer rights than the perfectly-formed, but no rights at all. We treat endangered insects better. Lord Shinkwin appealed:

“The irony is that this isn’t really about abortion. Ultimately, it’s about power, the power of non-disabled people to determine the fate of other – disabled – human beings, whether we should live or whether we should die. Prejudice must not prevail.”

But prejudice did prevail: his Bill failed. The campaign group We’re All Equal notes:

Disability-selective abortion numbers have seen a sharp increase in recent years. There were 230 late term disability-selective abortions (between 24 weeks and birth) in 2015 – a 271% increase since 1995. In 2014 the number of terminations for Down’s syndrome increased by more than 10% in the space of just 12 months as new screening techniques became available privately. Whilst abortions for cleft lip/palate, a minor facial impairment, have tripled in the last 5 years.

Jeremy Hunt “may ignore and patronise” Kevin Shinkwin, but nothing is going to silence him. He has a mission, a passion, a vocation to contend for greater justice for the unborn, and to eradicate the eugenicists’ prejudice against foetal difference. What a joy it is that he may now do so at the heart of the Commission which is charged with developing, promoting and enforcing all anti-discrimination legislation. If the Prime Minister really wants to build a Britain for everyone, we need to allow the triangular, oblong and heptagonal pegs to find their own holes, and to stop discriminating against the squircle just because we think it shouldn’t exist.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Our nation has slid inexorably into becoming a ‘death culture’. Time it was challenged with vigour. It is fantastic that this fine man is now in a position to highlight the complete hypocrisy of many elected and non-elected members of the Houses of Parliament. Power to his elbow.

    • David

      An emphatic yes to that !

  • David

    Socialism and the contemporary pretend liberalism, which in contemporary politics has eclipsed classical Liberalism, are both extremely muddled, and contradictory even, in their belief system. For how can it be rational or just to, on the one hand, defend the right of pre-meditated murderers to live, whilst encouraging the industrial scale killing of the innocent unborn, whether disabled or not ?
    Moreover we are all made in the image of God, and even according to atheistic humanists, in possession of an intrinsic worth as human beings; so how can it be morally justified to afford able bodied unborn persons greater protection from being deliberately killed compared to the disabled unborn, all for the convenience of their living parents ? This is pure utilitarianism taken to a depth even J. Bentham would have balked at.
    Where or where is the intellectual and moral coherence in these actions, let alone any spiritual content ? Our society thinks very little, prays even less and doesn’t even follow Reason, even though it is claimed to have trumped and replaced Faith. The leaders of out society, its so called political and cultural elites must be amongst the most shallow and self-serving of all time.

  • Holger

    Now isn’t that a shock! Gollum converts to Christianity and Betty Battenberg rewards him with one of those downmarket life peerages she hands out to all the most assiduous grovellers and boot-lickers.

    She then gets her current prime minister to find him a sinecure in one of those unpleasant quangos the Bliar foisted on her, hoping that he’ll subvert it from within.

    Gollum’s fellow Christians writhe in ecstacy at the prospect of gaining any sort of foothold in government, no matter how irrelevant and powerless the organisation might be, or how outnumbered their placeman is. Weeds can thrive in any crevice, can’t they? All they need is that first foothold.

    So there he proudly stands, the righteous Lord Gollum. Sanctified by royal favour, utterly determined to bring the gossspel of his sssaviour to Mammon’s own quango.

    “What’s it got in its lady pocketses, my Prrreciousss? A fœtussss? It’s ours, my Prrreciousss! She wantsss to sssteal it from usss! It belongs to our sssaviour, my Prrreciousss! Thief! Feminissst! We hates it, we hates it, we hates it for ever!!!”

    • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

      You really are a vile creature…

      • I’m from Barcelona

        Hear! Hear!

        • betteroffoutofit

          Must admit I don’t know what it said because I blocked it some time ago . . .
          Deo gratias.

    • CliveM

      Proof, if needed, that you are possibly the most unpleasant, vicious and narcissistic individual ever to have trod these boards.

      You have nothing to say that’s worth listening to. You are a pathetic disturbed individual.

      • I’m from Barcelona

        Agreed,

    • David

      How low will you go to project your vile ego and attack those who defend decent values ? Why you even attack a severely disabled, but brave, man it seems- all quite repugnant ! You really are a nasty bastard !

    • Inspector General

      This is the day, Holger, that your Inspector’s contempt for you surrenders to pity.

    • chefofsinners

      One might say ‘take a long, hard look at yourself’, but then perhaps you did, just before you wrote this.

    • Royinsouthwest

      Do you think that Lord Shinkwin should not be on the EHRC? What sort of people do you think should be members of it? The sort of people who think it OK to ignore thousands of cases of rape in the interests of “social cohesion” perhaps?

      • Inspector General

        There are people around, Roy, who believe that any job with ‘human rights’ in the title must go to some gay activist. If not a Lesbian woman of colour, then one of those who likes visiting children’s homes…

    • Quite possibly the vilest, cruelest, most hateful and venomous contribution to a chat thread in 11 years. No reason; just pure malignant ad hominem, directed at a man who is disabled. It really ought to be considered a breach of this blog’s comment policy. Now then.. what to do with it.. Permit the unanimous disgust to develop below, or delete? Request a retraction, or block the user? What says the community?

      • carl jacobs

        Let it stand as a monument

        • Jack agrees. On the other hand, if a dog soiled in your front porch you’d remove the waste as soon as possible.

          • carl jacobs

            Ya know. That’s a really good argument.

          • It is, isn’t it. Say Lord Shinkwin were drawn to read this blog for the first time as a result of this post, and say he scrolled down to the bile of that comment. His entire life has been a struggle, and now he contends for justice for the unborn whose disabilities may be a good deal less than his. And here, on this Christian blog, hoping to meet succour, he finds instead his soul smeared by Holger’s excrement. The stench saddens and corrodes his spirit. It shoves Lord Shinkwin toward the darkness. It is, in short, evil because it is gratuitously hateful. Why should such a monument stand?

          • CliveM

            To that I can think of no compelling counter argument.

            I would also still block, unless he apologises.

          • carl jacobs

            Why should such a monument stand?

            I don’t have a good answer to that question. Jack’s rather blunt analogy pretty much changed my mind.

          • “Jack’s rather blunt analogy pretty much changed my mind.

            *collapses to the ground in disbelieve*

          • carl jacobs

            *collapses to the ground in disbelieve*

            English Instruction for the British. Lesson 41:

            The object of a preposition is a noun, pronoun, or gerund. As in:

            *collapses to the ground in disbelief*

          • This mistake demonstrates the degree of confusion caused to Jack by you changing your mind. Is this a first?

          • carl jacobs

            Says the pot to the kettle. No, I’m quite open-minded actually. Always open to persuasion on non-essentials.

          • Hmm …

          • bluedog

            Haha.

          • Sarky

            I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

            I also found his comment disgusting. However, by removing it you are on very shaky ground when it comes to future discussions on freedom of speach. You dont want this blog to become a ‘safe space’ do you?

          • carl jacobs

            Sarky, there is no free speech issue here. This is a private weblog. We all exist here at the sufferance of the owner. He can establish any rules he may see fit to choose.

            Linus is here to cause trouble. He’s not here to engage. That’s why I blocked him long ago. The weblog is far more peaceful without reading what he writes. And quite frankly he never writes anything worth reading.

            Because I have him blocked, I have to log out to read his comments. I logged out today to read the comment in question. After I read it, I realized I shouldn’t have bothered. There was nothing there worth reading. Just like always.

          • CliveM

            Sarky you would defend to the death his right to be personally abusive?

            The objection here isn’t to his opinions (although we disagree) it’s to his cowardly attack.

            This isn’t a freedom of speech issue (in the common sense that it’s meant).

          • Sarky

            I totally understand. However, the response to his comment showed that 99.9% of people are decent.
            Sometimes you need the darkness to appreciate the light.

          • CliveM

            Well it’s not my decision and it has been decided. Time to move on.

          • Inspector General

            Shinkwin is a fighter, Cranmer. So is this man before you. He suffers from something called S.A.D. which has greatly impinged on his life. But we battle on. So, one recognises a fighter when he meets one. Everyone has reserves they may be unaware of. Some of us have needed to resort to those reserves already. Shinkwin won’t thank you for looking after his sensibilities as one is sure he’s come across a damn sight worse than Holger in his time. Shinkwin made it to the Lords. Holger on the other hand, will never make it to a state of contentment in this life. Pity Holger, not Shinkwin.

          • Possibly for the same reason Auschwitz isn’t bulldozed to the ground. It’s a testament to where the thoughts of dark, hate filled hearts lead. But you’re correct, if there’s a possibility it might cause damage to the spirit of others, or bring this fine website into disrepute, then it should be removed. One doubts very much such adolescent tripe would trouble the good Kevin Shinkwin.

          • Reasoned, even heated, debate is one thing. Hate filled bile spewed for the sake of trolling is another. Even the disciples knew that there came a point where they had to shake the dust from their feet and move on. I think this post crosses that line.

          • Inspector General

            This is the burden of Christianity we bear. We can’t give up on the fellow, yet at the same time he deserves to be beaten with rods. To help him in his understanding, of course…

          • This isn’t an attack on Christianity though, it’s an attack on people with disabilities. I don’t see why anyone with a disability who reads this blog should be subjected to it.

          • Inspector General

            Think you’ll find that people with disability would rather you saw them as who they are, and not a member of a disability group. Gay types will agree.

          • I can’t tell if objecting to people with disabilities being referred to as group while doing the same thing is serious or not. Anyway, I don’t think any individual, who comes here for theological discussion on current events, should have to be subjected to this kind of bile.

          • Inspector General

            “I can’t tell if objecting to people with disabilities being referred to as group while doing the same thing is serious or not.”

            Don’t follow you. Please explain.

          • “Think you’ll find that people with disability would rather you saw them as who they are, and not a member of a disability group”

          • Inspector General

            Have to be honest here. Before this article, one had never heard of Shinkwin, so he was a member of a disability group. Now we know who he is, he’s Lord Shinkwin newly appointed to a state post. Do you see how it works?

          • … I think we’re having different conversations here.

          • It’s an attack on moral truth, ergo an attack on Christ.

          • That’s a convoluted way of looking at it… it’s not worthy of being called an attack on moral truth, it’s a nasty tantrum that would be embarrassing in a playground. It’s completely derailed the comments on this article and Holger must be overjoyed.

          • Jon of GSG

            Actually in a way it hasn’t been derailed has it – it’s been a kind of image of the debate in ABC’s post, where some basically have contempt for disabled people (not s unashamedly as Linus, of course) and others are fighting against that. However base Linus’ comment, I’ve found reading the responses a very encouraging experience.

          • len

            Holger has a problem , he makes this apparent every time he posts here..He is a very bitter person.

          • Thank you, Len, looking at his posting history that’s becoming clear. I guess some people can’t cope with their own pain and have to inflict it on others, and for that he has my prayers.

          • len

            I imagine Lord Shinkwin has listened to many ‘Holgers’ in his lifetime.Children can be cruel , adults too.
            I wonder if Holger would have the courage to repeat his comments face to face with Lord Shinkwin?. I doubt it very much.

          • Terry Mushroom

            Holger appears to want attention, no matter how poor the quality. You and others have rightly expressed your disgust. So Lord Shinkwin knows that you and your readers disapprove.

            Isn’t the greatest punishment, as with an attention seeking toddler or teenager, just for all to ignore him and not take any further of his baiting?

          • Holger

            A good plan, but one that can only be put into action by adults.

            The children on this blog are all spoiling for a fight, so ignore me they won’t. They’re not constitutionally capable of it.

            Look at that vile old bigot “Happy Jack”. I’ve lost count of the number of times he’s threatened to block me. And yet he keeps coming back for more. He can’t help himself. He needs opposition in order to proclaim his superiority over it.

            It’s a good thing this heaven he keeps banging on about doesn’t exist. There’d be nobody to disagree with him so he wouldn’t be able to pose and preen as the most virtuous boy in class. As his entire personality is built around being right all the time and lording it over everyone else, heaven would be the worst kind of hell for him.

            And he’s just one example. This blog is full of psychotic and warped personalities, all of whom crave argument and disagreement as fuel for their superiority complexes.

            A few may block me, but it won’t last. They’ll soon get bored.

          • Anton

            He needs opposition in order to proclaim his superiority over it

            Is that why you are here?

          • Maalaistollo

            Fair point, Your Grace. Holger has now had a locus poenitentia of many hours, but has not availed himself of the opportunity. It is your prerogative to preserve good order in your blog and, while scrupulous hygiene cannot be achieved because of the number and type of people passing through, some things do need the use of a shovel and Dettol.

          • chefofsinners

            Sod all this talking about it. Just make a decision.

          • Decision made: it shall stay. His Grace sought counsel, and this was the response: “We collude with evil when we censor it.” Quite so. The community corrects and rebukes. Lord Shinkwin can see this Holger for what he is: our task is to love.

          • chefofsinners

            Amen

          • betteroffoutofit

            Agreed. Anyone who doesn’t want to read the filth, or even to engage with its generator, can apply the individual block. And Your Grace can always post a statement about his participation should you see fit.

          • You could at least place this post on the Index Sententias Prohibitorum ….

          • Inspector General

            The correct decision, if one may say so, Sir. Holger hasn’t come back, and for all we know has spent time weeping in a corner for his evil doing. To be reviled, cast out and left to fend for oneself alone is the most severe punishment for a human.

          • Holger

            This coming from you is beyond irony.

            When have you ever been anything except “reviled, cast out and left to fend for yourself”? Isn’t that why you turned to alcohol?

          • bluedog

            Our Lord turned water into wine but Our Inspector is yet to replicate the feat by turning himself into alcohol.

          • Anton

            I think you’ll find it won’t stay for very long. Holger, or the writer formerly known as Linus, has form at pulling his posts and shape-shifting.

          • bluedog

            You ask the question, block or seek retraction, Your Grace. Seeking retraction will only bring a further torrent of bile and hate, one can almost write the script. Block is an admission of defeat. It seems that Holger in his own way suffers a form of disability, a degree of self-hate and frustration that manifests itself in these intemperate outbursts. The argument for letting Holger’s post stand is therefore that here is evidence of a profoundly disturbed individual who needs help as much as he triggers disgust. One reads Holger’s post and sees fear, possibly the fear of his own exclusion.

          • chefofsinners

            Come on, Crandalf. He’s a naughty little hobbit. Take him up Mount Doom, shove him in the crack and consign his ring to everlasting fire.

          • I’m sure Lord Shinkwin has had to deal with vileness before and has developed a thick skin to cope. The human intellect and body can adjust. He’s no shrinking violet to be able to get as far as he has done so I’m sure he will be capable of putting the likes of Holgar in his place.

      • Inspector General

        No choice in the matter, old chap, it needs to remain. We cannot know good without there being evil. May God have mercy on his soul.

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        Block – don’t mind him taking pot shots at me but this is beyond the pale.

      • CliveM

        Block.

      • Let it stand and let him continue his hate filled posting. You could ask for an apology but Hell will freeze over before one is offered.

      • len

        Holger’s post is nothing but the fruit of a bitter and twisted heart.
        Holgers hate knows no bounds and some sort of restraint needs to be put on it/him.
        Block him but leave the post as a reminder of what a hate filled heart is capable of.

      • Maalaistollo

        The Inspector makes a good point, as does Carl. It can be useful to know your enemy, particularly if he advances reasons for the stance he takes. Thus, to take an extreme instance, I found it informative to read the Islamic State’s explanation of why their adherents hate us. Commentators on this blog are not generally of that cast of mind, and the posts of atheists and agnostics, even when couched in aggressive language, can be helpful in clarifying exactly what it is that distinguishes their position from that of most Christians as well as giving good reasons to reflect on what kind of impression one gives as a Christian (eg am I as smug, sanctimonious and hate-filled as they sometimes suggest?) I have to say that I normally skip over Holger’s comments, as they tend to be rather predictable and neither informative nor enlightening, but I did read this one and it seemed to me to be both puerile and offensive. However, would it not be as well to invite him to retract it, and to allow him a modest period of reflection for that purpose?

        • Inspector General

          Yes, Maalaistollo. The ever present danger of becoming ‘smug in our Christianity’.
          While Holger is around, that isn’t going to happen, for like it or not, he reminds he is but one of many prepared to turn us and our country’s Christian heritage over given the chance.

          • Maalaistollo

            Mind you, he can tempt one to hypocrisy. For example, I was thinking of writing that I felt sorry for him, but then had to admit to myself that my main reason for doing so would be because it might p*ss him off!

      • Ivan M

        Its Linus, what did you expect? He has a cruel streak made worse by literary ability. A persistent blasphemer; one of the minor pookas. He’ll just come back with another avatar.

        • Anton

          But even if with another email address divulged to his Grace, not with another IP address.

        • “Its Linus, what did you expect?”

          This comment was beneath our lowest expectations.

      • chefofsinners

        “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
        Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”

        • Ivan M

          True, but Jesus was pointing to hurt and insults to one’s own self. There is nothing there that requires us to stand by when others are hurt or humiliated.

          • David

            Quite ! I have long said that Christians are called to defend the weak, physically sometimes.

          • chefofsinners

            Yes, good point, but does Lord Shinkwin want or need others to leap to his defence? His own words, above:
            “Ultimately, it’s about power, the power of non-disabled people to determine the fate of other – disabled – human beings…”
            Perhaps Cranmer’s question should be directed to Lord Shinkwin, rather than to us.

        • Scripture isn’t short of insults. A favourite of Jack’s: “My little finger is thicker than my father’s loins.” (1 Kings 12:10) Translation: “My little finger is thicker than my father’s penis.”

          Jesus used insults: “You blind fools!” (Matthew 23:17) He was calling Pharisees morons. In modern parlance: “You moronic dumbasses.”

          • chefofsinners

            Galatians 5:12 is my favourite.

          • Ouch …

            Some do, of course, and it’s even paid for from the public purse.

            Btw, anyone ever said this about one of your culinary servings: “There’s death in the pot, man!”?

          • chefofsinners

            Sometimes they say ‘manna’.
            Meaning either bread from heaven or possibly the transliteration: ‘what is it?’

      • David

        I say let it stay as a signpost pointing to his sheer inhumanity and great shame.
        Maalaistollo’s post, an hour ago, overlaps with my thoughts and feelings well, so I support that.
        But do ask him to reflect on his vileness, retract his hate filled comment and apologise to Lord Shinkwin. Even the foulest creatures must be given opportunity to repent.

      • Leave it there for all to see what a nasty piece he is. We have freedom of speech.

        • CliveM

          This isn’t about the free expression of opinion, but the expression of nasty abuse.

          • He’s not threatening anyone though is he. His haemorrhoids are probably playing up, a dose of Epsom salts to clear out all that bile might calm him down.

            No doubt Lord Shinkwin has encountered sorts like Holgar in his life before.

      • Anton

        Begin by requesting a retraction within 48 hours and say that if none that is satisfactory is forthcoming then further action may be taken, but do not specify what. Keep your options open till then.

      • Holger

        You permit all kinds of vile racist and homophobic abuse on this blog, yet you’re outraged when a disabled person is mocked?

        Well if that isn’t virtue signalling of the most hypocritical and craven kind, I don’t know what is.

        If the LGBT community is routinely insulted here, there is no reason why the disabled should benefit from any kind of special protection.

        Further down this thread, you surmised that Shinkwin might read my comment and be overcome by despair. Poor Shinkwin! He might do himself harm! And yet you permit the foulest abuse of gay people to be posted here with never a mention of the despair it might cause us. Who cares if a queer tops himself, eh? The world will be better off without us.

        The rankest stench of hypocrisy and double standards pours from this cesspit of a blog like it does from few other places on the Internet. It is a byword for bigotry. And it’s all down to you.

        Reflect on that before you judge me. Reflect on how a young gay person rejected by his family and church might feel when he reads some of the vile comments here from the likes of depraved and evil individuals like “Happy Jack” and that psycho “Martin”. If Shankwin was hurt or offended by my comment, no doubt the politician’s ego that got him into the Lords in the first place will drive all thoughts of ending it all from his mind. I’ll have no suicide on my conscience.

        How many do you – or should you – have on yours?

        • Rather ask how many innocent young people have been driven to confusion and despair by predatory homosexuals and those who push their agenda on society.

          Let’s not confuse the suffering of homosexuals with its cause. It is quite possible that your suffering is caused by your own choices. If you do certain things that are wrong, no matter what civil law or custom says, you ought to suffer and you will suffer. If a person divorces unjustly, procures abortions, practices homosexuality, kills, sells drugs, bribes, lies, or steals, sooner or later, even in this life, you are going to suffer and cause others to suffer. Nature has its own ways of punishing us.

          Do something against the natural order of your being and you will suffer for it. Nine times out of ten, you will not have to wait until the Last Judgment to experience the relative chaos you cause.

          You want to re-order the world so that your suffering is blamed, not on you, but on a disordered world. You are a “victim.” “Sympathise” with me. Have “compassion” on me. What misplaced compassion can do is shift our intellectual attention from what is going on, from the disordered cause to the natural sufferings that follow. You argue and then try to convince others, invoking compassion, that your suffering is caused, not by your disordered choices and acts. Compassion starts out by feeling the sufferings of another. It can lead step by step to the overturning of the natural order. It does his by making the suffering you feel the determinate factor, not the act from which this suffering follows.

          And that is the true message of Gollum you missed in your disturbed attack on Kevin Shinkwin. Sméagol was corrupted and distorted by his desires. Physical disability and the suffering it involves is nothing compared to the distortion and ugliness of a corrupted soul.

          • Holger

            A typical Dodo rant, full of bitterness and accusation. The longer they are, the more you know you’ve unsettled him.

            My last remark clearly rattled his cage. He hates it when he’s confronted by the contempt that his high opinion of himself never fails to elicit from others.

            I can never decide whether to laugh or groan when Dodo gets up on his high horse and plays at being god. Sure, the comedic aspect of a demented old Jesus freak gibbering away like a Monty Python prophet never diminishes. But it gets very boring very quickly.

            Oh well, at least I can point others to his rants and say “see how religion rots the mind!” Works every time.

          • No rant or contempt at all in Jack’s post. Just reasoned argument against your claim of “victimhood. Aristotle taught that our passions, feelings, and emotions need to be ruled by our reason if they are to support us in living well. And God teaches us that sin results in misery and chaos, for individuals and society.

          • Anton

            That post to which Holger responded was one of your best, may I say.

          • Thank you, Anton.

        • Inspector General

          So, you’re doing your bit for ‘the cause’.

          One has studied your ways for 6 years now. It’s one of the 3 great threats to our society, along with secularism and Islam.

          Not content with 50 years of freedom and tolerance, you people now want to jump into the driving seat. To journey us all to state sponsored depravity while picking up new recruits on the way. Unable to reproduce, you must drag new younger blood in. As fully paid up members or allies. You aim very young too. One cannot forget the sight of a two year old waving a small rainbow-paedophile flag a few years back after one of your so called Pride events. Yes, you sick bastards made the flags small enough for a toddler to hold…

          You think decent sorts are going to put up with this! You will be opposed at every opportunity. EVERY opportunity!

          • Holger

            Why would we need to reproduce when you do such a good job of replenishing our ranks?

            I say “you” in its loosest sense, of course. Your genes will die with you, which is a fact we should all be grateful for.

            I should imagine the first thing any woman unfortunate enough to have been impregnated by you would do would be to rush to the nearest abortion clinic shrieking “get it out of me!”

            Of course the poor woman would have been unconscious at the moment of conception and might not therefore immediately realise that a strange hybrid creature was growing in her womb. And 10 to 1 it would spontaneously abort in a uterine environment that wasn’t constantly bathed in whiskey. But on the off-chance that the gin-soaked old Molly Sugden lookalike propped up on the barstool next to you happened to be wearing woolly support hose when you humped her leg, allowing capillary action to transport your feeble swimmers to the place you’ve never been able to hold on long enough to find yourself, then maybe – just maybe – if her HRT patch was provoking one last spurt of ovulation, conception might just be possible.

            If she then kept up her daily consumption of several bottles of spirits, the embryo might just be able to cling on. Totally pickled of course. And horribly stunted by fœtal alcohol syndrome. Gestation would proceed at a glacial pace. Indeed the pregnancy might not be detectable for several months, or even years.

            Sooner or later however, the old slapper would drink herself into a coma and be dragged off to hospital. A routine scan would reveal the abomination growing in her womb. If the doctors were kind, they’d keep her sedated while they attempted to eradicate it. Alcohol wouldn’t work – the creature would be immune to its effects. They couldn’t burn it out or there’d be an explosion. No, I fear the only solution would be surgical extraction with a tub of sulphuric acid standing by.

            If they failed and it managed to escape, what might the consequences be? As it fled into the sewers and slowly grew, one day it would see its reflection in a stagnant pool. Would the trauma cause it to seek out its progenitor and wreak vengeance upon him for burdening it with life?

            Careful next time you’re in the lavatory, old bigot. Who knows what might come up the drainpipe looking for revenge?

          • Inspector General

            Thank you for reminding an Inspector what a foul individual you are. Really, he needs no assistance there…

            A fellow enjoys a glass of whisky with his Cranmer after 6pm. That is because he is civilised. In fact, it’s not even whisky tonight, but 12 year old Armagnac. A rather pleasant whatever wasted on the French. Thankfully, some of it goes to types who appreciate it’s delicate nature. You stick to your Russian vodka. The drink of the seriously unhinged.

        • chefofsinners

          Happy St George’s Day, Linus. Who will you be voting for today?

          • Holger

            Today is April 23. I’m aware that you weird Christian types associate it with Georges de Lydda, but as far as I’m concerned it’s just another day in the calendar with no special significance apart from the fact that this year it’s the date of our presidential election.

            I have already been to the polling station. Early indications are that my candidate of choice will make it through to the second round, in which case he will almost certainly be our next president. But this could change by the end of the day. Things are so volatile at the moment that anything could happen.

            This being the case, we’ll have to wait until this evening for the results. But if he does win, he’s already made his preference for a hard Brexit clear. In other words, he accepts your desire to leave the EU and is waiting patiently for you to walk through the door before slamming it shut and locking it behind you.

            I’m no Bonapartist, but his blocus continental really was the best policy for dealing with you.

          • chefofsinners

            “he will almost certainly be our next president”???
            You mean you haven’t voted for the lovely Mme Le Pen?
            Never mind, she seems to have made it through anyway, so you will have an opportunity to correct your mistake.

          • Holger

            The first polls asking voters of all parties for whom they will vote in the second round all show the “lovely Mme Le Pen” losing out to the fragrant M. Macron 38% to 62%.

            Of course the polls aren’t accurate, you’ll say. Only the result of the first round showed they are. The candidates results were all within half a point of the pre-election polls. It seems the polling organisations have finally got their act together.

            Le Pen’s problem is (and always has been) that her potential reservoir of votes is limited.

            Given that the arch-Catholic Manif pour tous wing of Fillon’s party will vote for anyone – up to and including Hitler – who promises to put those dirty gays and revolting immigrants in their place (preferably a concentration camp), Le Pen’s potential rises to 35 % or so. Add a few thousand dyed-in-the-wool nationalists who supported Le Pen’s anti-Europe rivals Dupont-Aignan and Asselineau in the first round and you reach the absolute maximum she can hope for.

            Had she polled 30% or more in the first round, she might have been in with a chance. This would have signalled a sea-change in French politics: a surge to the Far Right that quite simply failed to happen.

            Unless we find out in the next two weeks that Macron has skeletons in his cupboard of a kind that could dissuade voters from supporting him, he basically can’t lose.

            You could see it in the eyes of her supporters who were interviewed after the results came in last night. They were putting on a brave face, but the tone was subdued because she hadn’t scored anywhere near the 30% she needed to be in with a chance of winning the second round.

            Her only chance of winning now is for Macron to make a gaffe of monumental proportions. If we find out that he’s a drug addict Lizard paedophile who holds Black Masses where babies are eaten then maybe, just maybe, she’ll get in. You can be sure that rumours of that nature will start to circulate dès ce matin. Whether or not the French people will believe them is another matter, but perhaps if you pray extra hard, your god might swing it for you. Hard luck on the babies of course, but as they’re god’s property to do with as he pleases, they can’t really complain about being eaten if he needs them to be as part of his plan, can they?

    • Yu should be thankful there is no gene identified as causing homosexuality. If there were, in the name of “compassion”, you might have been aborted – no one would want you to “suffer” in a cruel, homophobic world. If children with a cleft lip/palate are aborted, what chance homosexuals?

      • Inspector General

        Put your money on a gene sequence being identified. It’s only been a few years since the entire human genome (whatever that is) has been mapped. However, one understands they are coming on in leaps and bounds resulting, and a new cull of the innocent unborn cannot be far off. Personally, this abuse of science disgusts one.

        • Anton

          Natural selection is not going to promote such a gene combination.

      • Holger

        You should be thankful there’s no bigotry or religious maniac gene. If we ever discover a genetic origin for your type of pyschosis, society will soon be rid of your kind forever.

        Research is in progress. Let’s hope they make a breakthrough soon.

      • Sybaseguru

        Actually there never will be a genetic cause of Gayness identified because the twins research shows its not caused genetically (if it were, identical twins would both show the same trait – and they don’t) Which leads us to ask why Gays are treated the same as those with genetic differences, such as disability, sex and race, when it comes to “rights”

  • carl jacobs

    This is the problem with a “natural morality” based upon notions of empathy. The dirty little secret is that people don’t empathize with children who are born with disabilities. They empathize with their parents.

    Since children have become optional in life – something to fit in between a building a career and buying a new car – adults have developed an entitlement mentality about “perfect children”. They must adequately reflect the glory of their parents and they must be capable of fulfilling all those parental expectations. An option is not an obligation after all. When something isn’t quite right, the option can be declined. The expense and the burden and the embarrassment and the shame and the disappointment and the sense of failure and the smug pity of those with “perfect children” can all be avoided. The unborn child is just a lease with an option to buy.

    People empathize with those who become disabled. Why? Because they fear becoming disabled themselves. They don’t want to be left helpless and discarded. Rather thry want obligations attached for their wellbeing. People empathize with parents of children born with disabilities. Why? Because they fear having disabled children. They want the freedom to avoid those selfsame obligations to care. People do not empathize with the unborn who are disabled. Why? Because they will never again be unborn. Now, people can’t say this out loud of course – especially not to someone born with disabilities. But the message is clear. “The world would have been better off if you had been killed by your parents. Just think of the burden they would never have had to carry. I would never want to carry that burden. Someoin like you simply isn’t worth it. Nothing personal, of course.”

    The locus of empathy is the self. To derive morality thereby is to privilege the fears and the desires of the self. It’s all about me, after all.

    • Inspector General

      Fine words, Carl, but we need to be wary of the ‘life at any price’ people. A recent court case in England had a brain damaged eight month old’s parents try to get continued treatment for him. The prognosis was devastating. Some things were not meant to be. A judge set the child free.

      • carl jacobs

        Debra Powell QC, representing Great Ormond Street bosses, said … Charlie should not get long-term life support treatment because his ‘quality of life’ is ‘so poor’.

        http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/11/doctors-told-they-can-withdraw-life-support-treatment-from-baby-charlie-gard-6568265/

        It would be much more economical to apply that logic to people older than (say) 75. The potential savings in quality of life would be much greater.

        If I were you, I wouldn’t fear the “life at any price” people. I would fear the economists who can calculate to the penny the ROI achieved by keeping you alive.

        • Inspector General

          Well, let’s go and ask a few whom medical science has amazingly pulled through against nature. Ah, here’s matron…

          “Remember gentlemen, be it blinks of the eye or grunts, one means no and two means yes. That’s if they understand you. Many won’t. And whether or not they’re awake. It’s hard to tell in some cases.”

        • Lucius

          I tend to agree with you. The “anti-life” folks tend to argue by appeals to emotional extremes (e.g., the tragic case of the 8 months old with brain damage) to swallow what should be a “pro-life” rule. As I tell proponents of abortion who argue the extreme (e.g., rape), if you agree with me about that the other 99% of abortions are wrong, I will work with you about how to best resolve the other 1%.

    • David

      Extremely well reasoned and expressed Carl.

    • You’ve demonstrated the difference between realism and cynicism with this post.

      • carl jacobs

        So now I can call you “Grasshopper”.

        • One swallow does not a summer make, nor one fine day, Grasshopper. Realism and logic is not the mountain set before you.

        • chefofsinners

          Grosspoper

          • carl jacobs

            Oh! I finally got it.

    • Ivan M

      Why is it wrong to sympathise with the disabled for fear of becoming one, sometime in the future?To put oneself in the other man’s shoes is the basis for pity according to Aristotle.

      • carl jacobs

        It’s not wrong. The problem is that people often don’t empathize with those outside their own fears and experiences. If you can’t see yourself in those shoes, it can be difficult to imagine walking in them.

        People don’t empathize with the unborn because they can’t see themselves as unborn. They instead empathize with those with whom they can identify – the parents who have to give hard and long care. It’s no mystery why disabled children get aborted. It is a naked avoidance of difficult obligation by those who have no reason to ever fear being aborted.

        • Ivan M

          Yes I have to agree with that.

    • It’s what happens when “compassion” becomes separated from absolute moral values in a society that embraces relativism and the church preaches moral proportionalism. We “forget” why we value life from conception to natural death and fallen human nature is “justified”. A child is a gift from God and a responsibility.

    • Lucius

      Carl, thanks for the thoughtful and interesting post.

  • John

    An excellent appointment that restores some humanity to the Westminster machine. The power of Lord Shinkwin’s logic is made perfect in the weaknesses of his body. May he be a thorn in the side of equalities agenda obsessed as it is by the the normalisation of people who fondly imagine they are the opposite sex to the one they plainly are, and seek to criminalise anyone who begs to differ.

  • CliveM

    What is sad is instead of talking about Lord Shinkwin, we are discussing Linus instead.

    Pity how he has hijacked the post.

    • Inspector General

      Linus known as Holger’s needs are the greater. We shouldn’t give up on him. Somehow, one feels Christ would not approve if we did. We can give up when Holger meets his judgement. By then, he will be beyond our help.

      • len

        Holger has already been judged(as we all were ,on the Cross at Calvary.Jesus Christ is Holger’s(and our) only hope.Lets hope Holger sees this reality before its too late.

        Holger is obviously quite an intelligent person but his hatred has poisoned his outlook.
        No one is beyond redemption, but some sort of realisation of ones need for Christ is needed.
        If Saul was converted there is hope for Holger, right up until the time he steps into eternity.

        • Inspector General

          “No one comes to the Father except through me”

        • One quibble, Len. We were forgiven at Calvary, not judged. A Christian has to access this forgiveness by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. The rest Jack agrees with.

          • len

            Only ONE quibble Jack…..(.Walks off in a daze)

          • Jack often agrees with your posts, Len.

          • len

            Jack, If you’ almost ‘agreed with me this means you are only slightly wrong now…
            Onward and upward……

          • Grouchy Jack

            Don’t push it ….

          • len

            Feel we are getting somewhere now Jack…

          • carl jacobs

            People must appreciate my poor efforts. It’s not for me to speculate on why I get upvotes.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grouchy’s got his eye on you, Jacobs.

            You’re right. Your efforts are poor.

          • chefofsinners

            Ticks? Sorry, I thought those were V-signs.

          • Eeeck, Carl has ticks? Spider-like, blood-sucking creepy crawlies. It is essential he has them carefully removed as soon as possible as they can cause diseases.

          • Anton

            Americans think those mean Victory.

      • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

        He is beyond our help

        • I’m from Barcelona

          Mrs. P, He’s beyond the help of any human being. Only The Lord can save him.

          • Anton

            True of us all!

          • 1649-9-11again

            Oddly it’s the haters like him that are often the ones that are saved more easily. A divine paradox.

          • I’m from Barcelona

            Indeed they are “special cases”, more in need of special attention.

        • Inspector General

          Well, he hasn’t been around since. The Inspector can assure you, dear lady, that in the Higher Understanding, it is no sin to hope that the cold hand of death has visited him soon after he made his droppings. To spare him the further agony of his being alive, you see…

          • len

            You are too kind Inspector.

          • Holger

            Here I am, mad old bigot. As you well know, the only Higher Understanding you’ll ever find is at the bottom of a bottle of booze.

            Have another swig and drown the sorrow of being you under a tidal wave of whiskey…

        • Holger

          Judge not lest ye be judged.

          But then who could possibly judge you? Your kind of sour self-righteousness is impervious to any opinion except your own.

          If I’m wrong and there is a god, may he help the denizens of hell when your period of residence starts there. Considering the apocalyptic proportions of the snit you’ll be in (“How dare that pinko deity send me, his own conscience, here?!? He must be scared of the competition.”), they won’t know what hit them.

          If I’m there when it happens, can you imagine my mirth?

          • Anton

            Abandon hope all ye who enter here

          • alternative_perspective

            “But then who could possibly judge you? Your kind of sour self-righteousness is impervious to any opinion except your own”…quite.

    • chefofsinners

      Linus is an object lesson. He perfectly demonstrates how a man can appear able bodied and modestly intellectual, one who might be allowed to live in our brave new world, and yet…
      His character is deformed, his humanity crippled and his decency diseased beyond recognition.
      He perfectly illustrates the need for the second birth.

      • He’s self aborting ….

      • CliveM

        Yes perhaps. But I don’t think he’ll find it here. He needs something less abrasive.

    • 1649-9-11again

      It seems we should have full confidence that Lord Shinkwin will be saved. Holger is the lost sheep that requires finding. Whom should we concentrate our energies on?

      • CliveM

        I’ll not pretend to a virtue I don’t have, as far as I’m concerned he can go to hell.

        Probably just as well there are better people than me!

        Ps you keep slightly modifying your name, any particular reason?

        • 1649-9-11again

          I recall the example of St Paul… I have long suspected that Holger’s subconscious is attracting him here for reasons he can’t admit to himself, which is why is conscious ego screams so violently while here.

          One is feeling particularly apocalyptic these days…

          • Anton

            Re apocalyptic times, you aint seen nothing yet…

          • 1649-9-11again

            I know, but one senses the pieces being put together.

            PS I have written an update of the Screwtape Letters on Going Postal which may appeal to you.

          • CliveM

            I know what you mean ☹️

    • Dreadnaught

      I don’t know why you all don’t block him unless of course you enjoy playing his game. I did this some time back and it it has two advantages. 1. I don’t get involved and 2. he, the narcissistic bottom feeder he is, doesn’t get the attention he feeds on.

      • CliveM

        I’m giving it serious consideration.

      • David

        I think a lot of people saw what he was up to some time ago. That’s why few, including myself, ever respond to him.

      • alternative_perspective

        He’s already outside the church. Our job is to preach reconciliation to him only – his master will rebuke him in his own time.
        Though we ought to be more careful about casting our pearls before him.

  • chefofsinners

    One Shinkwin seems to be more use than all the bishops in the House of Lords.

  • Inspector General

    Two hours ago, this man received (another) virus. You know who you are. One is now skilled in dealing with such, and to prove it, here we are still…

    • Sarky

      The out of hours gp should be able to sort you out (if you can find one)

      • Inspector General

        It turned out the anti virus licence had expired. All fixed now. Learnt that one is on a permanent malevolence list which is probably activated daily. Such is life.

        • Sarky

          Well, if you will play with fire…

  • God bless Lord Shinkwin. I pray that he will have a positive effect upon the Commission, but humanly-speaking he has an uphill struggle.
    The unborn have no vote; they cannot write to their M.P.; they cannot form a lobby-group, sign a petition or march on Parliament. They therefore count as nothing in the estimation of our politicians. The feminists, on the other hand…………..

  • Richard Hill

    Could an enlightened person link this debate to the old testament’s insistence that sacrificial animals must be blemish-free.

    • 1649-9-11again

      To what purpose?

      • Anton

        Speaking of changes of subject, you were good enough to find a good clip about George Soros a couple of months ago and post the link here. Here’s another:

    • IanCad

      Because they foreshadowed the sacrifice of the perfect Christ, in short, a type, to be fulfilled by Our savior on the Cross of Calvary.
      Not claiming any special enlightenment, merely parroting what I’ve heard on the subject.

    • chefofsinners

      An enlightened person would not make that link.

      However physically perfect or imperfect we might be, we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and need to be made right through the sacrifice of the one perfect man, Jesus Christ.

    • dannybhoy

      True, and He was.
      Genetic breakdowns , incompatible genes are all part of the (fallen) human condition.
      But God loves all of us, regardless of the shape of our nose…

  • IanCad

    “—Whilst abortions for cleft lip/palate, a minor facial impairment, have tripled in the last 5 years.”

    No! No! No! Surely not! Not in the UK?. For cosmetic reasons?

    Years ago I worked with a wise bricklayer – Ramsay by name – who put me right on the issue. “Abortion Ian? – It’s plain bloody murder.” I had no answer for him, and still don’t.

    • Jon of GSG

      Yes, that statistic really hit me too. And what on earth has changed in the last five years?? You’d think it would be going down, not up.

  • len

    Bit off thread I suppose but we have witnessed on this thread the hate filled response to someone who only wanted to do good namely Lord Shinkwin.
    Why the hate?.
    Jesus gets the same response from many people.It is when some people are confronted with the love of God shining through people the light is so intense for them they want to shut it out.

    Peter responded to Jesus with;”Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!” (Luke 5:8)

    Isaiah, when in the presence of the lord;
    “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I
    live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

    There was a man who died and stood at the Gates of Heaven.
    “I want to come in” said the man.”But your name is not in the Book of Life ” said the angel.
    “I demand to come in” said the man.

    A quite still voice said”let him in.”

    The Gates swung open.The man entered and was blinded by an intenses Light.Waves of love began to engulf the man until he could stand it no longer “Let me out” the man screamed and rushed out of the Gates into the darkness.

    • chefofsinners

      Yes, Satan’s dilemma is that the darker the background, the brighter the true light will shine. The purpose Holger serves on this blog is contrast.

    • Anton

      Careful, Len. The Eastern Orthodox view, and many Roman Catholics and perhaps CS Lewis, take the view that hell is not separation from God in a place of torment, but God’s presence, his glory manifest as uncreated light, as it is perceived by the unrepentant. This view is motivated partly by the philosophical premise that omnipresence is intrinsic to God (yet might he not be everywhere that he chooses?) and perhaps also by the notion that people, via their lives, choose hell for themselves (but that would apply only to those who believe it exists). Matthew 25:41 reads: “Depart from me… into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” – into which people are ‘thrown’ (i.e. not voluntarily) after judgement (Rev 20:15). God does not wish to spend eternity in the proximity of people who hate him; they already spoiled his old creation (Rev 21:1-2). How does the Eastern Orthodox view explain that the fire is “prepared for” Satan? Nothing in the Orthodox view prevents persons coming repentant to God after judgement, moreover, yet Luke 16:26 rules this out, and hell is portrayed as a place where regret is useless (Luke 13:28). If the Orthodox view is correct then why did Jesus and the New Testament writers not just state it (it isn’t complex), but rather use the imagery of physical separation again and again?

  • len

    Adam, the first man chose his own ways over Gods way ,and it was because of this that led mankind into the fall and under satanic power .Man wanted power , had pride in his own strength and his own wisdom, pride in his own abilities.
    Gods Plan to bring salvation to man was to reverse these traits because pride connected man to satanic forces.The fall of satan was due to exactly the same traits that man desired.

    God choose the weak things of this world to bring about his Plan for salvation.

    ‘But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong’ (1Corinthians 1:27)

    What can be weaker or more foolish in the eyes of the world than a Crucified man?.

    1 Corinthians 1:19
    For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the
    discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who
    is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not
    God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom
    of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God
    through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

    • dannybhoy

      “Man wanted power , had pride in his own strength and his own wisdom, pride in his own abilities.”
      Don’t think I can agree with you there Len. I think Adam was curious; his wife was even more curious and succumbed to the serpent’s blandishments, but God held Adam responsible.
      The sin it seems to me is that according to the account Adam never asked God why it was forbidden..

      • len

        You can be ‘as gods’ was the temptation Danny.
        The temptation hasn`t changed.Many religions make you your own ‘messiah,’ you have to earn your salvation . New agers ‘we are all gods’
        Atheist’ we don`t need God’, etc.
        Pride seems to be the main factor.

        • dannybhoy

          S’difficult innit.
          There is no hint that Adam asked God at any time why he shouldn’t eat from that tree.
          “6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.”

          Implying perhaps that Adam was perfectly happy to obey. So the temptation came through the serpent creature appealing to their curiosity rather than the desire for power (he’d already named the animals!).
          I dunno.
          I wouldn’t fall out over it, but I’m not sure you’ve proved your case.

          • len

            It was only a matter of time before’ someone’ ate from the tree.
            If it wasn`t Adam or Eve, then their children..It was inevitable….
            Its was their desire for knowledge ‘make one wise’ why is why God reversed this with ‘the foolishness of the cross’.
            Think I will leave this here Danny…

            ps If there are any typos here its because my keyboards gone dicklecksic

          • dannybhoy

            God bless you Len, and keep on standing for the faith!
            Dicklecksic indeed…

  • Anna

    Abortion overturns the duty of parents to sacrifice for their children, and the duty of society to protect the weak. Like all humanistic solutions, it prioritises the happiness of the fittest and strongest over the rights of the weakest members in society. The underlying principle seems to be that the stronger party in any given equation must be spared all struggle, while the weaker one pays the ultimate price to uphold ‘the rights’ of the former. So the expectant mother aborts her helpless foetus who apparently has no rights, but is seen as an extension of her body, like an unsightly wart and therefore denied any voice in the decision to end his or her life. And those who support this act of unbelievable cruelty to a defenceless baby cleverly describe their position as pro-choice rather than what is really is – pro-death.

  • michaelkx

    “Jeremy Hunt “may ignore and patronise” Kevin Shinkwin, but nothing is going to silence him. He has a mission, a passion, a vocation to contend for greater justice for the unborn, and to eradicate the eugenicists’ prejudice against foetal difference. What a joy it is that he may now do so at the heart of the Commission which is charged with developing, promoting and enforcing all anti-discrimination legislation. If the Prime Minister really wants to build a Britain for everyone, we need to allow the triangular, oblong and heptagonal pegs to find their own holes, and to stop discriminating against the squircle just because we think it shouldn’t exist.” just the man we need. as for Mr H he is of no account

  • Hi

    I’ve Blocked Holger / Linus after his atrocious post below.

  • Sybaseguru

    This is not as cut and dried as some would have you believe. I suggest you read Exodus 21v22 – an abortion of a fetus. Compare it to the penalty for killing a live human being and you realise that that God does not value the fetus in the same way as a live human being. So what about God knowing us in the womb – Jeremiah 1:5 et al.. Well my wife has a red car that is a Nissan, so are all Nissan cars red? Of course not. Formal logic shows that you cannot reverse arguments. You can say God knows some fetuses, but logically cannot, from scripture, say God knows all fetuses. My theory is that we get our soul at birth, and its that that make us different to the animals and makes us in the image of God. Which changes the whole abortion argument.

    • Pubcrawler

      Nevertheless the church has been against abortion from the earliest times:

      http://www.antiochian.org/node/16956

    • Anton

      This verse could equally well refer, in the Hebrew, to premature labour with the baby surviving. You could, however, point out that if a pregnant woman commits one of the capital crimes in ancient Israel then Mosaic Law does not say let her bear the child before being executed.