Guy Verhofstadt terrorism tweet 2
European Union

Brussels attacks: suppressing the facts and muzzling the truth

To every thing there is a season..
..a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak..

(Ecclesiastes 3:1,4,7)

Horror, disgust and incredulity come first, usually followed by tears, heartbreak and compassion. And sometimes there’s a prayer, even from the non-believer.

Each of us processes dismay and deals with grief differently. For some, they are dissected, scrutinised and embalmed within minutes; for others, they gnaw at the soul for weeks and months, and the consecrated mourning becomes a shrine in the temple of sacred memory. Anyone who profanes the holiness, let him (or her) be anathema.

Telegraph journalist Allison Pearson tweeted this swift response to the terrorist atrocities in Brussels:

Allison Pearson

“What a horror you are,” responded the SNP’s Alyn Smith MEP in equal haste. “Dust not even settled and you try to make a political point? For shame.”

Perhaps Ms Pearson had processed her dismay and grief a little quicker than Mr Smith managed to, but either way, it seemed insensitive and indecent, to say the least, to score points off Islamist bombs in Brussels for the Leave/Brexit cause. And yet..

Those Remainers and Europhiles who condemn Brexiters and BeLeavers for scoring crass political points appear blind to their own hypocrisy.

EU heads of state Brussels

If it is crass, indecent and inhuman to question the wisdom of Schengen or ‘open-door’ immigration in the wake of fanatical Islamists bombing airports and metro stations, why is it righteous to use acts of terrorism to preach about the virtues of “common European institutions” and harp on about “European values” and the need to be “united”? The double-standard has not escaped Paul Waugh:

..within minutes of the news of the appalling murders yesterday, some Brexiters had pounced to try to score points about the EU referendum. It wasn’t just Allison Pearson’s tweet about ‘Remainers dare to say we are safe in the EU’, retweeted by Farage. It was also UKIP’s Mike Hookem saying “this horrific act of terrorism shows that Schengen free movement and lax border controls are a threat to our security”.

Too soon? You betcha. Yet it reminds me of a conversation I had with one Brexit minister a few weeks ago. He said that there were two big ‘events’ that could tip undecided voters towards Out: a big new migration crisis or a terrorist attack.

The timing was crass but to be fair to the Brexiters, many were just expressing anger at the oft-repeated No.10 line that ‘security’ and ‘terrorism’ was a reason for staying In. Indeed Downing Street yesterday while showing distaste at the way some linked the atrocities to the referendum, went out of its way to stress this was a ‘shared threat’ across Europe, that our security services were working closely with Belgium and that the PM had signed a statement reaffirming ‘European values’.

Former Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt tweeted about the need to “work together & unite to fight this terror”. He’s right, of course. But we can do that perfectly well without being in the EU (which is made up of just 28 of 50 independent European states, all perfectly capable of collaborating and cooperating in pursuit of the common good). Perhaps as leader of the Group of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe and founder of the inter-parliamentarian federalist Spinelli Group, Mr Verhofstadt wasn’t inclined to remind us of that. Or perhaps it simply wasn’t the time.

Home Secretary Theresa May also used the Brussels attacks as an opportunity to spout about the imperative of intelligence data sharing for the effective functioning of the EU’s common security policy. She can say that, it seems, with free licence, but God help you if you tweet about the fact that common security policy isn’t really working too well; or allude to the fact that the Brussels bombers can drive to and from Paris without any kind of security/identity checks at all. It’s okay if you’re a respected Tory peer to trash Schengen and the “flawed” EU and to make a case for Brexit, but if you happen to lead Ukip and say the same thing, well, that’s not only crass and insensitive; it’s racist, bigoted, xenophobic and devoid of all reason.

And if you want to appropriate the horrors of Islamist suicide bombings to sermonise that this is “nothing to do with Islam”, well, that’s fine, too.

The Church of England has released a prayer for Brussels, and Fr Heikki Huttunen, General Secretary of the Conference of European Churches, has condemned the atrocity:

In this season of Lent and Holy Week, we lament such outbursts of violence. As we heal together as inhabitants of Brussels and Europe — and brothers and sisters in humanity — we need to find our way anew, and must all contribute to building societies where everyone feels secure and partakes of the common good.

There is a time to speak and a time to shut up. But there is also a time to speak truths which are never going to be convenient for every limp ear to hear. Perhaps the last word ought to go the Archbishop of Canterbury:

In the great Holy Week of Christian prayer and mercy, the Brussels attacks shock all those who seek peace and justice through the terrible cruelty and utter separation from all that is of God. Once again we see the contrast between the vain efforts to terrify through indiscriminate murder, and the call of God to be those who show mercy, who seek peace and pursue it. Let us at every service this week pray for those caught up in the traumatic events at the airport and in the City of Brussels.

What a horror these clerics are. Dust not even settled and they try to make a religio-political point in the cause of religious inculcation under the guise of holy compassion? For shame.

  • rapscallion

    The time to make political capital out of atrocities like this is precisely when the bodies are still warm and the limbs haven’t been swept up. That’s because – you see this again and again from the Boston bombings to the murder of Lee Rigby to the Charlie Hebdo – our decadent, supine, relativistic, Western liberal culture would dearly love to pretend that these are rare criminal events which we should learn to take in our stride and to which we should not ‘overreact’.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/22/belgian-bombings-we-need-to-face-up-to-the-war-being-waged-against-the-west/

    • The Explorer

      The BBC says that since 7/7 there have only been three terrorist incidents in Britain: Drummer Rigby, a Muslim in Manchester killed by a Ukranian white supremacist, and a prsion guard killed by Rupublican separatists. See: three terrosrist incidents, and only one of them Islamic.

      On a global basis, however, the Islamic involvement in terrorist incidents is rather higher than these bland statistics would suggest.

      • rapscallion

        Quite, but that’s just Britain. What about Paris, Madrid, Brussels? How many more have to die horribly before the useless politicians get off their backsides, stop saying “it’s nothing to do with Islam” and actually DO something about it?

        • Anton

          Probably quite a lot more, actually.

          • rapscallion

            Regrettably, I think you are almost certainly correct. I suspect Berlin will be next, or perhaps Vienna.

      • DP111

        There many murders of non-Muslims by Muslims, which are categorised as murders only, with no specific Islamic motive. This is because judges are unwilling to categorise them in that fashion, even though the Jihadi demands that it be so. Judges, in many such cases, dismiss the Jihadis view as non-Islamic and unkoranic They even go further by lecturing the Jihadi on the tenets of Islam – peace and tolerance. The Jihadi is then deemed mentally unstable, and confined to a mental institution.

        • “They even go further by lecturing the Jihadi on the tenets of Islam – peace and tolerance.”

          I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they look, waxing eloquent about ‘true Islam’ to jihadis. Are they judges or imams?

      • Little Black Censored

        And how many more terrorist incidents were foiled by the intelligence services?

        • The Explorer

          Quite. And how many of the successfully-foiled plots were non-Muslim?

  • dannybhoy

    Can you remember not so long ago when people like myself and others were being chastised for being intolerant and lacking in Christian charity because we did not swallow the line that we should give up rooms or garden sheds, or homes to accommodate refugees pouring into Europe?
    And remember all the posters appearing in Europe, “Refugees Welcome! Muslims we love you!”
    You cannot risk a rerun of the Trojan horse story, when you already know from history how that panned out for the Trojans.
    No one is saying that all Muslims are evil terrorists or that lots of innocents aren’t suffering; but we do know that one of the tenets of Islam is the goal of a worldwide caliphate.
    We do know from history that Jews and Christians in Muslim nations had to pay the Jizyah tax.
    “In a country ruled by Muslim authorities, a non-Muslim is guaranteed his freedom of faith…. Muslims are forbidden from obliging a non-Muslim to embrace Islam, but he should pay the tribute to Muslims readily and submissively, surrender to Islamic laws, and should not practice his polytheistic rituals openly.”

    http://www.debate.org.uk/debate-topics/historical/the-jizyah-tax/
    We do know that Sharia law is not compatible with Human Rights Legislation or Christianity or Judaism, yet up to 40% of British Muslims want it for the UK..

    https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/15/pew-poll-analysis-a-billion-muslims-want-sharia-law/

    (Please be advised that there are some unpleasant pictures illustrating the consequences of Shari’a justice; so you might want to stick with the statistics at the beginning.)
    https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/15/pew-poll-analysis-a-billion-muslims-want-sharia-law/

    So EU politicians and their (ahem!) British supporters have gaily waived all these facts aside and opted instead for equality of faiths and equality of cultures and led us to the brink of disaster.
    Greece and probably Italy will be sacrificed on the altar of Human Rights and Equality, and increasing numbers of Europeans on their way to work will be wondering whether they’ll arrive or not.

    • DP111

      Not all Muslims are terrorists. However they are no help in ferreting out those who are. The reality is that Muslim Jihadis can only exist when hidden by the larger Muslim community. Jihadis are like the fish who swim in the sae of Islam that our politicians have created within our own boundaries.

      There are videos of Muslims in Molenbeek, throwing stones at police while they were trying to arrest that Jihadi. Aldo some pretty awful videos of Muslim youths rejoicing at the carnage in Brussels airport and train station.

      The BBC has nothing about this. In fact the BBC it is spending all its time sympathising with the real victims – Muslims in Europe

      • dannybhoy

        During ww2 it was well known that a fifth column operated in Great Britain, with spies and operatives hidden in key posts.
        That’s what bothers me about the BBC.

        • Merchantman

          If the BBC had been peopled by the present crew they would have argued we should have given in like the rest of Europe in 1940 to ensure our solidarity and security from the inside.

          • dannybhoy

            Quite so.
            I love my country, but there are just as many rogues, knaves and sell outs as there are in any other country…

    • dannybhoy

      As regards the part of my comment dealing with refugees and hospitality. I offer this vid by Stephen Green of Christian Voice.. I think he does a good job of explaining the issues involved…

  • The Explorer

    “the imperative of intelligence data sharing for the effective functioning of the EU’s common security policy”.
    The implication is you won’t get security data from other European countries unless you’re in the EU. But memories stir within me of ‘The Day of the Jackal’. The British and French security services exchanged information when the EU security policy wasn’t even in existence. And don’t we share info wih the US? That’s not in the EU.

    • DP111

      We have an intelligence link with the USA, that is of far greater weight. No other country has such a close link with US intelligence then we have.

      For that reason, It is in Europe’s interest to have as closed a link with Britain’s intelligence services as possible. Neither is dependent on the EU. In fact they have nothing to do with each other, as America would not allow Brussels bureaucrats to meddle in America’s vital services.

  • The Explorer

    Listen to the BBC, read a BBC report, and ‘So called Islamic State’ is everywhere. You can’t use the term Islamic State without its qualifier. A security expert on the ‘One Show’ last night who forgot to do so rapidly corrected himself. For all I know it’s a sacking offence for employees.
    So Islamic State is not Islamic, and the Paris and Brussels attackers were not Muslims. So what were they? Basques separatists? Quebec liberationists?

    • dannybhoy

      Rebellious and intoxicated Anglicans?
      Don’t forget, if you want to bring down a culture you infiltrate its political administrative and societal infrastructures..

    • Anton

      Baroness Warsi knows: they are, of course, “extremists who do not follow any faith”. See:

      http://www.archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/baroness-warsi-are-these-people-muslims.html

    • Anton

      As spoken by the so-called British Broadcasting Company.

    • jsampson45

      I think it is more a case of “Islamic State” not being a State.

      • The Explorer

        David Waddell, Senior BBC news producer (who coined the term):
        “There is considerable dispute over whether it is Islamic.”
        “It is not a state.”

        • Anton

          Then why don’t they call it the Islamic so-called State rather than the so-called Islamic State?

          • The Explorer

            I suppose because in his order of priorities the fact that it is not Islamic is more important than that it is not a state.

  • Anton

    I want my country back and I don’t mind what I’m called by people who are too lazy or stupid or dishonest to argue properly.

    • sarky

      Your country? Is that some utopian ideal that only exists in Downton abbey and miss Marple?

      • Anton

        It is the country for whose freedom my ancestors fought, but wouldn’t have bothered if they’d known it would be given away to people having no commitment to its way of life or to a religion that has never historically influenced it but whose scriptures command conversion at swordpoint wherever it is not accepted freely.

        • sarky

          Given away?? Sorry, do you live in the UK? Just that I don’t recognise your hysterical description.

          • Anton

            You know exactly what I mean. On this occasion you don’t deserve a reply. You might look at the demographics and think of your grandchildren, though.

  • Anton

    David Cameron has said he does not think it “appropriate” to use the Brussels attacks to further arguments in the EU referendum debate. I’ll bet he doesn’t!

  • Shadrach Fire

    When was the right time to cry out about our Lord’s Crucifixion?
    When he was on the cross would have been good, had they fully understood what it was about. And now, “Dust not even settled and you try to make a political point? What better time than to say what needs to be said. Otherwise it looks like you don’t really care about the reasons for the suffering.

  • carl jacobs

    Every time a Gov’t official says “This has nothing to with Islam” he proves he is incapable of dealing with the problem. This is the vulnerability of secular Europe. It has willed that religion be considered incidental. And secular Gov’ts in Europe will follow that line to oblivion. The political ramifications of these attacks far outweigh the ability of law enforcement to address the impact. There will as a result be incoherent expectations wthin the public for action that the secular Gov’t will not be able to meet. And so the population will become ever more radicalized with each attack. And the Gov’t will look ever more impotent.

    This can’t end well. The dominant worldview can’t solve the problem and the problem is only going to get more deadly.

    • @ carl jacobs—It [secular Europe] has willed that religion be considered incidental
      Secular Europe, in the form of the mainstream political parties in power since the last war, has willed that Christianity be replaced by Islam. That being the case, governments will naturally wish to portray Islam in the best light (by, for example, denying that it inspires terrorism) so as not to threaten the project.

      the population will become ever more radicalized
      I would describe the desire to maintain one’s customs and remain by far the majority in one’s own country as normal.

      the government will look ever more impotent
      In which case, the people will desert the mainstream parties and elect politicians who want to protect, not wreck, European civilization. Assuming, of course, that the mainstream parties resist the temptation to ban patriotic parties.

      • The Explorer

        “Secular Europe, in the form of the mainstream political parties in power since the last war, has willed that Christianity be replaced by Islam. ”

        There’s a lot in that. I recall that somewhere some group were trying to create a firebreak, but the firebreak got out of control and created the result they were trying to avoid in the first place. In the same way, secular Europe wanted to get rid of the existing religion and thought it could do so by replacing it with a second religion that could then be crushed in its turn. Only they hadn’t done their research properly, and the second religion proved a lot more resilient than anticipated.

        Bringing in snakes to kill rabbits, and then ending up with a plague of snakes. Japanese knotweed. The analogies are endless.

        • @ The Explorer—secular Europe wanted to get rid of the existing religion and thought it could do so by replacing it with a second religion that could then be crushed in its turn. Only they hadn’t done their research properly, and the second religion proved a lot more resilient than anticipated

          The West has been aware of the nature of Islam for a thousand years. Those who brought it here are relying on its resilience, and they have no intention of crushing it and risking a resurrection of Christianity in Europe. Where we see Christianity as a benign faith, it provokes in some ‘a very deep hatred’ which secularists and atheists cannot begin to match.

      • carl jacobs

        has willed that Christianity be replaced by Islam

        It has willed that religion is trivial and unrelated to civilization. It therefore is ideologically incapable of speaking the truth – that Islam is inimical to the West and can only be allowed if it is dominated. Islam unifies politics and religion. To the extent it gains political power it must Islamify the state. But this secular masters of Europe cannot admit this for it would require a re-evaluation of the place of Christianity in the West. They have spent decades removing it. They can’t reverse course. This is why they are trapped by their own ideology.

        So things will get worse. The Secular Gov’t will ring its hands but otherwise do nothing. And then some malignant POS will start talking about Blut und Boden again. And people will start to listen.

        • @ carl jacobs—It has willed that religion is trivial and unrelated to civilization

          So, our ‘secular masters’ decided to kill off religion by importing into Europe the world’s most aggressive and unyielding religion. Hmm. If Europe’s secular atheist politicians are so dead against religion, why would they exchange a weak docile malleable model for Islam?

    • IanCad

      That “Idiot” Trump may be just your kind of man.

      • Trump is a life-long Democrat-supporter, a friend of the Clintons, a chronic liar and given his sweep in the nominations, a most effective manipulator. He is crude, manipulative, flip-flops on all major issues, knows nothing about anything and promises the impossible…like building a border wall (for which Mexico will pay!) and banning Muslims from entry into the US. The Trumpkins, mostly low-info voters, who buy into his act, do so because they are fed up with the damage by the Dems and the broken promises of the soft Republican establishment. So, they are going like mad for someone who channels the low-brow charismatic machismo acts of Mussolini or Putin, heedless of his past, his record and his personal aims. Only 30 percent of Republicans, if that, back him, and if he wins the nomination, most others would not vote, would let Hillary win and woek on building a new party to challenge her in 2020.

        • … and Carl Jacobs has indicated that should Trump gain the nomination he will consider voting for Clinton and thereafter shoot himself.

          • dannybhoy

            Clinton will shoot him anyway…

          • Carl is a samurai. He is caught in a chain of unsavoury paradoxes; loyalty to the country trumps (sorry) loyalty to the Party, but a vote for Hillary deserves a death sence.

          • carl jacobs

            That’s about the size of it. And I’m not alone. Maybe they’ll write a story about us called “The 47 Ronipublicans”.

          • Correct, you’d be ronin rather than samurai. And then, to follow American tradition, open up a wings and ribs place in Utah called, “Ronald’s Republican Ronin.”

          • carl jacobs

            But as a general rule, I don’t like ribs. And I avoid wings. And … me? In Utah? Don’t you realize I have been black-listed by Mormon missionaries? They don’t come to my house. By intent. A Mormon friend of my daughter looked us up once in their records. There is a big black “x” through my address.

          • Ha! You should always hedge your theological bets. I was nice to Mormons once and I guess I’m on the good list somewhere in a vault under Salt Lake City.

          • Anton

            Disputing the scriptures with them is great fun!

          • Hi avi

            Chag Purim! Hope you’ve got your Hamantash and Fazuelos ready. Along with the grogger!

          • Chag Purim to you and yours, Hannah! No, they ran out of the poppyseed ones again and the youngest made over a hundred last night with other girls for some charity thing…and didn’t bring out one. Not a si gle one for her suffering father who has to serve as her chauffeur for these to-dos. Maybe I’ll investigate fazuelos.

          • dannybhoy

            You could substitute some ‘special’ poppy seeds for that extra hamantaschen lift, Avi…

          • No thanks! We once made hash-brownie filled ones at uni and stayed “baked” for two whole days. First time I had to ask a prof for an essay extension…with a dry mouth and saucer plate pupils.

          • Anton

            What do you expect with a name like hash browns?

        • carl jacobs

          Heh. “Trumpkins.” I like that.

          • dannybhoy

            Sounds like something from the Wizard of Oz; or perhaps his own rock group: Donald and the Quiffs..

          • Trumpeters, Trumpbots, Trumpoids and so on…the battles on NRO have become vicious and I must confess to succumbing to the atavistic pleasure in rolling up one’s sleeves and joining the fisticuffs. At times someone will protest and call for civility on the grounds of historic US electoral traditions…which I find hilarious.

          • carl jacobs

            Have you ever read “Foundation and Empire”? Trump is the “Mule.”

            I hated that book. Well, that’s not true. I liked it until the last two pages. After I read the last two pages, I threw the book across the room. Literally. Is that valid literary criticism?

          • Sort of, in my early teens, but my English wasn’t up to the dialogs and I was looking for a lot more shallow swashbuckling than deep thoughts, so I probably abandoned it part-ways. By the time I was ready for deep sci-fi, I discovered Dune and got hooked on Herbert, bypassing Azimov.

            Flinging a book across the room? Sure it’s valid; post-modern kinetic critique.

          • carl jacobs

            I got my younger daughter to read “Dune” when she was in high school. When she finished the book, I told her she had to watch the 1984 movie adaptation. It was part of her cultural education, you see. Some might call it cruel but she needed to understand the benchmark that is that movie. Besides, it was hilarious to watch her reactions.

            She still wants her two hours back, not having been persuaded by my cultural necessity argument.

          • Hmm. I didn’t mind the movie actually. Of course it was superficial and hokey, but Herbert was involved in the production and some pretty crazy set designers made interesting stuff and started iff their careers. Btw, it was only recently that I discovered that Herbert’s name for the Dune Messiah, “Quisatz Hadarakh” is a kabbalistic term, “k’fitsat ha-derekh,” shortening of the path!

          • carl jacobs

            So you’re the person who liked it? I always knew one existed but I never knew who.

          • CliveM

            I didn’t hate it either. I thought it was better then what the critics said

          • Hi

            I’m reading dune . Only on page 8 though.

          • carl jacobs

            Dune is an excellent book. I couldn’t get more than 20 pages into the first sequel however.

          • Dreadnaught

            Or even Trumpalumpas.

          • dannybhoy

            Very good

            Some really nice shots of a young Donald..

          • Ivan M

            Heil Trumpenfuehrer! Oops.

        • IanCad

          Avi,
          You are usually quite calm and collected, weigh your words and generally make a lot of sense.
          I don’t know Trump, but I know many Americans, mostly mid-westerners. The salt of the earth. Thoughtful, possessed of common sense and fair, decent and kind. They like Trump.
          He is getting a lot of flak. Whilst the phenomenon of “Virtue Signaling” has been confined to the province of the “loony left ” it now seems to have migrated to the conservative opponents of Trump.
          Even HG felt obliged to call Trump a “Chump” in a recent editorial. Carl has described him as an “Idiot, and now you are topping the lot with a screed which I can only describe as hysterical.
          It is quite probable that he will be the forty fifth President of The United States.
          I wish him well, he has a tough row to hoe. Made tougher by people on the right who, really, should know better.

          • Old Nick

            For much of the year I live among (and indeed teach) mid-westerners and they are the salt of the earth. I have yet to meet a single Trump supporter, and the state’s Republican caucases voted resoundlingly for Mr. Rubio, with Mr. Trump coming last. What Avi Barzel says in general chimes with what I am seeing hereabouts.

          • IanCad

            If you have not met a single Trump supporter I can only assume that you have a very limited range of acquaintances.
            Penny Dropped!! You teach. You are in the education industry. That explains it.

          • Old Nick

            I am not in an industry. I teach. And so I have students. And not one of those I now has voted for Trump. However, I suppose they are quite clever and maybe the two things do not go together

          • IanCad

            Believe me my friend, education is an industry.

          • Old Nick

            I am not sure I am your friend. What I am engaged in is scholarship, not industry, and I fight wherever I am able the efforts of those who would turn it into an industry. I also find faintly ridiculous the common American conviction that people who know what they are talking about and are of more than usual intelligence are not to be taken seriously.

          • IanCad

            Oh me! Oh my! Forgive me if I have made so bold as to ruffle the feathers of those who are of more than usual intelligence.
            He who can does. He who can’t teaches.
            There can be no industry that can spend so much to gain so little as the education industry.

          • CliveM

            IanCad,

            Which part of what Avi said was hysterical and not the truth?

          • IanCad

            Clive,
            Pretty much the entire post.
            A catalogue of half truths, generalizations and slurs which could be applied to almost any politician.
            More disturbing though is the general tenor of contempt shown for those who may choose to support Trump. A contrived intellectual superiority is evident among so many of his critics.
            I find such “Brilliance Displays” disgusting; especially when bloggers of the calibre of Avi fall in line with the assumptions of the collective.

        • CliveM

          If Trump is the answer, goodness knows what the question is.

  • The Explorer

    What is a Muslim? Presumably, one who follows the five pillars of the faith, and who practises jihad. There are, to be sure, many types of jihad: purity of life might be one form, but violent jihad might be another. They suit different sorts of people. It’s not unlike St Paul’s view of the multi-faceted body in ‘1 Corinthians’ 12. So for Western commentators to say that those who follow violent jihad are not Muslims seems unfair: violent jihad may not be the only form of jihad, but, in Islamic terms, it’s a perfectly legitimate one.

    All Muslims, presumably, believe that the world should be in obedience to Allah; they may differ as to how this should be achieved. One of the 9/11 planners, I forget which, expressed the hope that one day all the women on Madison Avenue would be wearing the birqa. He hoped it would happen from spontaneous conversion, when infidel women saw the beauty of the faith. The jihad of example might work its result. If infidel women did not respond, however, appropriate pressure might be applied.

    • bockerglory

      Have plenty of experience with Muslims. They believe Mo is the perfect example and armed struggle to establish Islam for all the world is fine as long as it is Just. Just, here means giving people the opportunity to convert and the penalty for not doing so is either death or poverty depending on the degree of disredpect. Mo when short of food robbed travellers. Mo when wanting sex had sex with slaves without their consent. Mo when wanting extra wives sanctioned polygamy. Mo said that those wanting to show true repentance and gurantee of heaven should kill unbelievers. Mo said other sacred texts were corrupted. Mo’s Quran is obsssed with what was considered to be cleanslines and wrote at lengths about womens menstruation and when sex wss permitted! In short Mo’s justice is pretty poor. So be careful when you read their flowery poetic writings about the Jihad not having to be violent.

      Re read the Quran and you will see it is a manifesto of war.

      Then compare to Jesus life. Christians and Jews also do bad things but this is sinnful. Moses sinned (hence he was not allowed in promised land). Christians do not have to say the old testament is corrupted to vindicate their beliefs.

      • Old Nick

        Even more to the point read the Life of Muhammad of Ibn Ishaq (English translation entitled Life of Muhammad, by A. Guillaume, published by OUP). Start with Part III, because that avoids much scene-setting, genealogies etc..

        • Anton

          Yes.The only biography of Muhammad that Muslims regard as authentic and easily the most revealing book about Islam.

    • Anton

      The Quran is perfectly clear what kind of jihad is involved where the faith is not accepted freely, for the word ‘fight’ used in the Quran is from the Arabic root QATALA meaning fight with intent to kill.

      The definitive interpreter of the Quran for Muslims is the Islamic prophet Muhammad. What interpretation did he live out?

      • The Explorer

        I was framing for myself a way of arguing with BBC-type believers that Islam is a faith of peace and tolerance, and that those who use violence are not true Muslims.

        • Anton

          My reply was mainly for readers!

    • @ The Explorer—There are many types of jihad

      Officially, there are two types. From Reliance of the Traveller, the book of Islamic law:

      o9.0 Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad, ‘We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad.’

      • The Explorer

        I was thinking of the jihads of the heart, tongue, hand and sword. The BBC loves the first three (heart especially), and likes to pretend that the fourth one doesn’t exist.

        • Ivan M

          Not to mention the rape jihad.

    • Ivan M

      The scum who did 9/11 were at a lap dance the week or day before. Atta was supposed to be a student of urban planning but could not see the WTC for what it was, a solution to the congestion in Manhattan. The Muslims who do this are usually described as good students diligent in their studies. But what is at work in them is an intense spirit of jealousy. They know in their hearts that they would never match the West even in its decadent phase. “You made it, they didn’t” is the basis for all their angst. Not their supposed outrage over decadence. Muslim countries lead the world in internet porn searches.

      • Anton

        “The Muslims who do this are usually described as good students diligent in their studies.”

        Yes, the Arabic for “students” is Taliban.

  • This is a direct consequence of European leaders putting political expediency and short term economic gain before the preservation of their Christian heritage. They had more confidence in their untested theories than in the faith of their fathers. In producing the Belgic Confession, their forebears showed courage and fidelity to the true gospel – yet how lightly the Belgians threw away their pearl of great price for crumbs from Saudi Arabia

    From Wikipaedia (‘Great Mosque of Brussels):

    “In 1967, King Baudouin lent the building [Oriental Pavilion of the National Exhibition] to King Faisal ibn Abd al-Aziz of Saudi Arabia with a 99-year rent-free lease, on an official visit to Belgium as part of negotiations to secure oil contracts. The buildings was turned into a place of worship for the use Muslim immigrants to Belgium, which at the time were notably from Morocco and Turkey. As part of the deal, imams from the Gulf area would be hired although their orthodox salafist were a different tradition, according to George Dallemagne, to that of the more open-minded immigrants but their teachings would over time turn them into a more orthodox tradition and imams would discourage immigrants from integrating into the Belgian society, according to George Dallemagne…”

    “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images…They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is for ever praised. Amen.”

    (Romans 1:22-23, 25 NIV)

  • Dreadnaught

    Until the West puts aside political correctness and accepts that Islam is not and never has been a Religion of Peace these atrocities will continue.
    ‘Islamophobia’ is an invention of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation to buy even more time to embed their totalitarian ideology deeper and deeper into the fabric of Europe.
    Of course not all Muslims are terrorists; they don’t have to be; they must however not criticise their pronouncements of their phoney prophet to spread Islam by the sword or cowering capitulation. If they do so they are guilty of apostacy and insulting the prophet which gives ANY muslim the right to murder them and be hailed a ‘saint’.

    If anyone can be bothered to look follow this link to ISIS’s own magazine and you will find out just what a slick well funded and structured enemy this is.
    http://jihadology.net/category/dabiq-magazine/

    • dannybhoy

      Interesting links Dreaders, but I don’t think I’d sign up for the translations..

      • Dreadnaught

        Try this other link Dan – not sure how I got to post the previous one – this newly edited and amended one is what I wanted to be seen.

    • Shadrach Fire

      Article by Graham Wood. very interesting. I suppose that’s the wood that comments here sometimes.

      • Dreadnaught

        I very much doubt that.

    • Coniston
  • AncientBriton

    Theresa May in her Commons statement today: “And we must do more to counter the poisonous and repugnant narrative peddled by Daesh and expose it for what it is – a perversion of Islam built on fear and lies.”
    Last night on the BBC’s Newsnight, a Muslim in Belgium explained how difficult it was for Muslims who were victims of unemployment leading some to become radicalised.
    I don’t recall any mineworks or steelworkers in this country slaughtering the innocent because members of their families have been unemployed for generations.
    It is not a perversion of Islam, it is the ideology Muslims memorise from the Koran.

    • “And we must do more to counter the poisonous and repugnant narrative peddled by Daesh and expose it for what it is – a perversion of Islam built on fear and lies.”

      How is she going to do that? Does she think she is better qualified about the nature of Islam than its prophet:
      “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Sura 8:12
      “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you…” Sura 9:123

      • sarky

        Because your bible says nothing like that does it……

        If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

        • Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

          At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered round him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

          But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

          At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’

          ‘No one, sir,’ she said.

          ‘Then neither do I condemn you,’ Jesus declared. ‘Go now and leave your life of sin.’

          (John 8:1-11 NIV)

        • The Explorer

          Marvellous stuff, isn’t it. Unfortunately superseded by the New Covenant. That’s why Islam has such appeal for the violent: it moves in the opposite direction.

          • sarky

            Christianity has used the bible to justify violence plenty of times in its history.
            Imagine how different the world would be if we woke up tomorrow to no religion.

          • The Explorer

            “Imagine how different the world would be if we woke up tomorrow to no religion.”
            Ask those who went to the Soviet gulags, or who experienced Mao’s Cultural Revolution. They had direct experience of waking up to no religion.

          • sarky

            Ask those who just got blown apart at an airport.

          • The Explorer

            People kill each other: religion or no religion.

          • Dreadnaught

            This is done in the name of a supposed religion.

          • The Explorer

            Aztec priests cut out a human heart every day to stop the world from ending. That was in the name of religion. Another religion put a stop to it, and is now condemned for its cultural barbarism.

          • Dreadnaught

            And they believed that their gods were listening just as much as you do; and where did it get them?

          • The Explorer

            Well, no, not in quite the same way.

          • Anton

            Not my religion and you may not categorise me with those people.

          • sarky

            Yes, but religion gives them the reason to.

          • The Explorer

            Ideology gives them the reason to. Sometimes the ideology is religious; sometimes it isn’t. Consider Satin’s elimination of the Kulaks. He felt he had a reason for doing so, but it wasn’t because of religion.

          • Dreadnaught

            Stalin’s gulags and the soviet union lasted a couple of decades Islam has been murdering its way around the globe for 15,000 years – or had you forgotten?

          • The Explorer

            1500 years. I wasn’t saying Islam didn’t kill people. That has no bearing on the experiences of those who woke up to a world without religion in Stalin’s gulags or Mao’s Cuttural Revolution.

          • Dreadnaught

            Thank you EX.

          • dannybhoy

            (Danny bass profundo’s..)
            “Imagine there’s no Sarky, it’s easy if you try….”

          • Anton

            I suppose you think religion is behind most wars. In fact, tribalism/racism, plunder, and the desire to exert and extend political control are behind most wars, and religion is sometimes co-opted when the sides have different faiths. Let’s look at the most important wars that England has been involved in.

            In the 20th century England was involved in the two biggest wars ever, neither of which was fought for a religious reason. Early in the 19th century we fought against Napoleon, who wanted to rule all Europe as an emperor. We didn’t want him to. That’s not a religious war. In the 18th century we lost the American War of Independence. Obviously that wasn’t a religious war. In the 17th century the English Civil War was fought between parliament and the crown to decide where ultimate power lay – that’s not primarily a religious war. In the 15th century the wars of the Roses were fought between the houses of Lancaster and York for the throne of England: not a religious war. In the 14-15th century the 100 Years War was fought between England and France. They had exactly the same religion (Catholicism), so it wasn’t a religious war. In the 11th century William the Conqueror invaded and seized the English throne because he believed it was rightfully his and he had been denied it; this was not a religious war. In the 9-10th century the Anglo-Saxons fought the Danish invaders. They did this because the Vikings, who were the fathers of those Danes, had found rich pickings and weak defences in their raids on the east coast a generation earlier. So, although the Danes were pagans at the time and the Anglo-Saxons weren’t, the conflict was about land and wealth. In the first century the Romans invaded Britain. They invaded everywhere that they could, and their own accounts of their campaigns do not centre on religion.

            So why do people vainly claim that religion is the cause of most wars? Probably because of wars fought between Catholic and protestant in Europe in the 16th and 17th century, after which atheism started to become popular. The claim is essentially 18/19th century atheist propaganda, and the evidence of history shows it is not true.

        • dannybhoy

          What’s your point Sarks?
          Seems you’re overlooking why the Lord commanded these things..
          “The Canaanite nations were punished because of their extreme wickedness. God did not cast out the Canaanites for being a particular race or ethnic group. God did not send the Israelites into the land of Canaan to destroy a number of righteous nations. On the contrary, the Canaanite nations were horribly depraved. They practiced “abominable customs” (Leviticus 18:30) and did “detestable things” (Deuteronomy 18:9, NASB). They practiced idolatry, witchcraft, soothsaying, and sorcery. They attempted to cast spells upon people and call up the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).”
          http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=1630

          • sarky

            So it’s OK to stone people if they do something your God doesn’t like….sounds familiar.

          • dannybhoy

            Well, if He’s a holy and righteous God and He has been telling the people to stop their evil practices and they take no notice, then yes.

            “16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him; and Ahab (the King) went to meet Elijah.

            17 Then it happened, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, “Is that you, O troubler of Israel?”

            18 And he answered, “I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father’s house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of the Lord and have followed the Baals. 19 Now therefore, send and gather all Israel to me on Mount Carmel, the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal, and the four hundred prophets of Asherah,[a] who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
            1 Kings 18
            Among other things these guys sacrificed their children…
            http://www.gotquestions.org/child-sacrifice.html

          • sarky

            Careful Danny you’re starting to sound like an extremist.

          • dannybhoy

            :0)
            I think we have to recognise that it is through our Judaeo/Christian values we have been able to develop stable, just and free societies Sarks.
            If you look at what is happening outside of the post Judaeo/Christian world you begin to realise how cheap and cr**p life can be…
            Just for you some of the photos from that link I posted the other day..
            https://muslimstatistics.wordp

          • chiefofsinners

            Sounds like the laws of crime and punishment that governed all societies until prisons were invented.

          • Anton

            Thereby concentrating criminals into a university of crime while providing them with board and lodging, for all of which the taxpayer has to pay, while depriving their families of their breadwinner. It is no accident that prison is not a sanction in Mosaic Law. (And not because there *could* be no jail on the walk to Canaan, either; there are abundant instructions about other things to do once they reached the Land.) Paying back the burgled severalfold while remaining in the community is better for everybody, with capital punishment for offences against the image of God in man, and some corporal punishment – but no rotting in jail.

          • chiefofsinners

            True. Prison featured in Egyptian society (Joseph) before the Mosaic law was given, but was not included in it.
            Using it as a punishment for civil offences is generally a bad idea, but I think it will be with us always. This seems to be accepted in NT passages such as Heb 13:3 and Matt 25:36.

          • Anton

            There have always been secure places to hold people, often for arbitrarily long periods, but the idea of the State actually sentencing somebody to X years in prison is fairly new in Western culture.

          • “with capital punishment for offences against the image of God in man”
            Care to define such offences?

          • Anton

            Gross violation of what the Bible says it is to be human and created by God. Why do you ask?

          • Paedophilia? Bestiality? Homosexuality? Rape? Abortion? Adultery?
            Awful lot of executions in there if there’s no prisons.

          • Anton

            If you think God make a mistake when prescribing Mosaic Law, take it up with Him.

          • Just wanting you to be explicit about what you’re proposing as an alternative to imprisonment by the State.

          • Anton

            Repayment with reparation of debt to people you have swindled or burgled. If you have stolen too much for that to be feasible then your State benefits to be paid to those you swindled. Capital punishment in some cases. Corporal punishment in some cases. But no rotting in jail at an academy of crime, no deprivation of association with one’s family (apart from incidentally, in capital punishment), no free board and lodging, no cost to the taxpayer.

            In the feudal system which you laud, there was no such sentence as “jail for X years”.

          • “Capital punishment in some cases. Corporal punishment in some cases.”
            What cases?

          • Anton

            If you think you know better than God how to deal with man then by all means propose laws different from those he proposed for governing interpersonal behaviour.

          • You want to reinstate Mosaic Law?

          • Anton

            Read my lips rather than putting words on them, Jack. My view has not changed since we last discussed this issue, as follows:

            Britain is not a covenant nation and I do not wish to institute any of the religious laws written down by Moses (quite apart from the outdating of many of them by the Crucifixion). But man has not changed in his nature and I therefore believe that the ‘moral’ laws governing interpersonal relations are a uniquely wise set which Christians should advocate.

            Were I dictator I would not impose these unilaterally, for even God himself gave ancient Israel a vote by acclamation on the Law. Christians should argue for them, though, and the “natural law” arguments of Thomas Aquinas are a great help in doing that.

            There is one exception: I would unilaterally impose the death penalty for murder if I could. It is commanded by God to the survivors of the Flood and their descendants, ie everybody (Genesis 9:6). This covenant, unlike the Mosaic one, has not been superseded in Christ: it remains in force. (If you think it doesn’t then you had better start worrying about a second Flood, which God promised not to repeat at the same time.) The principle of capital punishment is spoken of with approval by St Paul (Romans 13:4).

          • But would you wish to see capital punishment reintroduced for adultery and homosexuality, for example? Or for heresy? False prophecy? Blasphemy? Incest? Smiting or cursing apparent? Contempt of court?

          • Anton

            I’ve explained myself in all necessary detail, Jack.

          • Don’t be shy, Anton.

          • Ivan M

            It happened more three millenia ago. Don’t get hung up about it. It is not normative for Jews or Christians now.

          • Anton

            High time capital punishment is brought back, certainly for people like the Brussels bombers.

          • CliveM

            How do you hang someone who has just blown themselves up???

        • Now that you have added the first line “Because your bible says nothing like that does it…” I understand the point of your comment.

          First of all, this law did not apply to infidels, but to Israelites, who were under a special covenant with God. The purpose of the Mosaic law was fulfilled in Christ, and under the New Covenant of grace, we are forgiven if we repent. If we do not repent, then we will be judged on that Final Day.

          • sarky

            Hasn’t stopped Christians through the ages using the bible to justify all sorts of atrocities though has it?

            Like you said ‘let those without sin cast the first stone’.

          • dannybhoy

            He’s on one of his atheistic righteous crusades Anna. You’ll get no sense out of him until he finds something else Christian to poke at…

          • “Hasn’t stopped Christians through the ages using the bible to justify all sorts of atrocities though has it?”

            If they did, you will find no justification in the teachings of Jesus for such crimes.

          • sarky

            Didn’t stop it happening though.

        • Pubcrawler

          Always ready with a ‘tu quoque’…

        • Old Nick

          How many razzias did Jesus lead ?

          • Ivan M

            Read one way, Allah was Mohamed’s sugar daddy. Anything Mo wanted, Allah was ready with a verse for it. As in the business of having the hots for his daughter-in-law. Father Butros is a riot when it comes to calling out these matters.

          • sarky

            Are they the awards for really bad films?

          • Old Nick

            No, raids, traditionally in furtherance of blood feuds, but channelled in early Islam against the Dar al-Harb

          • sarky

            Apologies, I was being facetious.

          • Old Nick

            Apologies, also, for deliberately activating Sense-of-Humour-Failure.

          • Anton

            I know the word only in connection with round-ups of Jews in Italian cities during World War 2.

        • Yes, very scary…and very mainstream for Bronze Age chiefdoms, which typically got more creative than stonings. Now lest you worry about me chasing after you with a handful of stones for your tats and noserings, remember that Jewish law tangled up death sentences in a judicial and theological maze, which made them into rare events…over two thousand years ago! Still waiting for the world to catch up.

        • Anton

          Those are the laws of ancient Israel, and while they come from the same God that the church worships, about whom they provide valuable information, they are not part of the constitution of the church. As you presumably know from your 18 years in a baptist church?

          • sarky

            I do know, it’s just that I could never get my head round a duplicitous god.

          • Anton

            It is man who is duplicitous, and God who is torn in his response. You are misinterpreting the tension God feels between his wrath at sin and his love of his creation as duplicitousness. Any father feels the same when his children misbehave.

          • sarky

            Big difference, I wouldn’t tell mine i love them then drown them in a flood.

          • Anton

            It’s worse than that sarky, he denied us access to a herb which would prevent death – even those who didn’t spit in his eye. But death is not the end…

          • sarky

            Think you already know my response to that.

          • Anton

            Yes, but we’re both writing for readers as well as each other.

            Refusal to commit to God because you think he’s nasty is absurd. If you think there is a supreme god then you’d be crazy not to commit, because your fate is in his hands whatever he is like.

          • sarky

            I think I would be crazy to commit. Rather die on my feet than spend my life on my knees.

          • Anton

            If you don’t believe there’s a supreme god then by all means don’t commit, but if you believe there is a supreme god whom you happen to dislike, and that death is not necessarily the end, then you’d be barmy not to reconsider.

          • sarky

            I don’t believe in god, but I also happen to dislike the god as described in the bible.

          • Anton

            Supposing you mean “I also happen to dislike the personality of the god described in the bible” then thank you for the clarification, but there is a lot of incoherent talk by atheists along the lines of “not the sort of God that I would wish to believe in”.

          • sarky

            Agreed. How can you wish to believe in something you don’t believe in?
            It’s just bad wording, I think they’re just trying to say they don’t understand how anyone would want to follow the god of the bible based on the descriptions within.

      • Shadrach Fire

        You are right. ISIS is not a perversion of Islam, it is authentic.

        • CliveM

          It is certainly an authentic version of Islam, but it’s not the only one.

    • Mike Stallard

      “Go therefore into the Railway Station and into the Airports and blow yourselves up with dynamite so that the Kufars die in great agony. Fear Allah and worship him.”

      I wonder where that actually occurs in the Koran?

      • The Explorer

        It doesn’t. Allah, of course, knows about dynamite, railways and airports, but Muhammad didn’t. However:

        “When the sacred months are past, slay the idolaters wherever you find them.” (Surah 9:5)

        “Strike terror into the enemies of God and your enemies.” (Surah 8:60)

        “I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them.” (Surah 8:12)

        These principles are applicable to whatever situation one finds oneself in.

        • Mike Stallard

          I am not going to trade proof texts. Too easy! And indeed for every religion – and let us not forget political philosophy too – it is too slick.
          The other problem is context. When the Prophet was fighting for his very survival in Medina, and openly encouraging his troops to be brave (as the Prophet himself actually was himself), I think that was perhaps a rather different situation to self immolation in a crowded place so you could get to Paradise at the expense of everyone else.
          The behaviour, for instance, of Caliph Omar in Jerusalem when he refused to perform Salat in the Church in case it turned into a Mosque, or the graciousness of some of the Haddiths do not suggest that selfish destruction of innocent people (including Muslims) is part of the Salafi way of life.

          • Anton

            Every verse was inspired by a particular context but the entire point of collecting these sayings is because believers suppose they have general application.

          • Mike Stallard

            Allow me to qualify this:
            Interpretation goes one of several ways. Isn’t this called fiqh or something? Or itjihad?
            Scholars have been making their names in this line of country since Baghdad and the Caliphate. The four schools?

          • Anton

            Fine, you tell me what you think the verses quoted from suras 8 and 9 on this thread mean.

          • Mike Stallard

            If you take them in context – they were written while the Prophet was in Medina fighting for his very survival – then they make perfect sense. The problem is that as in every single holy book there are some verses which are purely for the time they were written – Jesus for example tells Peter to put down his sword – and some for eternal use – Jesus says Do this in remembrance of me.
            Like every other holy book – these verses could very well be for local use at the time and not meant to be taken as a rule of life.
            That is anyhow how a lot of the one billion Muslims take them.

          • Mohammed was perhaps fighting (for his life) – and the religion he propounded arguably superior to the Meccan religion – but he was, equally, an aggressor demanding that Meccan tribes conform to Islam.

            If we consider those particular suras in the context of history, it is clear that even after Mohammed had secured control over Mecca, his successors continued his military expansionist policies for the next 1200 years to extend their control over a significant portion of the globe.

          • Mike Stallard

            I am a Catholic myself. Our Christian religion spread peacefully and virally, helped by the martyrdom of many innocent Christians who followed their Master to resurrection through martyrdom.
            As a Christian, and more, as an educated person, I attempt to understand other people in the way that I myself like to be understood. As an historian I like to understand people with whom I very much disagree.
            Islam, warts and all, does not attract me as a religion at all. At all. But I am commanded to love my neighbour and that is exactly what I am trying – and actually to my surprise, succeeding, in doing.

          • You mentioned something about ‘real Islam’ and this is the point I was discussing. In our personal relationships with Muslims, I agree that we should love them and treat them kindly.

            Jesus said we should be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. It is therefore important to make a careful study of Islam – its tenets and history – before we come to conclusions about what true Islam is or isn’t.

          • Dreadnaught

            You are a prime example of a muslim apologist. It sounds very much like you have been listening to your daughter-in-law. Your son must be a muslim too if he’s married one.

          • Mike Stallard

            The Koran falls into two directly opposed parts. Before and during the Hejira to Mecca – up to 622 – the tone is conciliatory and broadly accepting people and asking for moderation. This made a lot of sense with the Quraish putting early Muslims under attack.
            After the Hejira, however, the tone changes and we get much more robust messages.
            Islamic scholars have seen this for some time now. That is why just quoting stuff really convinces nobody.

            As a member of one of the three Abrahamic religions, I feel a natural brotherhood with Muslims actually. I do for Jews too, of course. I am proud of this.
            Every religion, however, has terrorists – as we ourselves did against the Nazis. A cynic would say that terrorism is another name for resistance to injustice.

          • Anton

            Are not those the ones Muhammad called munafiqun, hypocrites, who follow his words but not his deeds?

            I think it is worth distinguishing in this discussion between the attitude Muslims are to take to other Muslims and the attitude Muslims are to take to infidels. The latter is clear: someone who doesn’t convert voluntarily must be offered the choice of mandatory conversion or death. It is in their attitude to other Muslims that ISIS might be regarded as not proper Muslims. I suggest that this difference explains the words of Teresa May and of your daughter-in-law and is worth probing.

          • The Explorer

            “I wonder where that actually occurs in the Koran?” I gave a few examples. You didn’t aske for context.

            I remember the first time I looked at the Qur’an. Having just bought it, I skimmed it. The end Surahs were gratifyingly short. 111 caught my eye. “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” … Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the wood as fuel… A twisted rope round her neck”

            I didn’t know at the time of first reading who he and she were, but it sat uncomfortably with the encomium to Allah. It seemed an odd sort of faith.

  • Mike Stallard

    I watched the News lasts evening and was, yes, angry at these theologically illiterate morons pushing their way into Paradise at the expense of a lot of other people whom their arrogant actions prove that they despised.
    If that is Islam, then it has nothing to do with any decent form of religion at all.

    Actually I watched the News with my daughter in law who is a Muslim. She was as angry as I was and gave me a talk about these people being stupid and ignorant and not really Muslim.

    • Dreadnaught

      If that is Islam, then it has nothing to do with any decent form of religion at all.

      Oh but it has everything to do with Islam – ask yourself why are there no Jews or Christians left in Islamic countries where they were once dominant: its not nuclear rocket science.

      • Mike Stallard

        I am a Catholic myself.
        I was alive when Mrs Thatcher got blown up. I was there when the Omar bombing happened. My brother fought for peace in Northern Ireland in an English regiment.
        And what did the Catholic Church say? What did it do?
        And how many priests were involved in egging people on?

        Let him that is without sin among you etc etc…

        • Inspector General

          But the bombers of Brussels are heroes in the eyes of the prophet, are they not?

          You do yourself a disservice to compare the activities of the IRA to jihad. We all thought you better than that….

        • Dreadnaught

          Its Omagh.

        • Dreadnaught

          And how many priests were involved in egging people on
          So according to you logic the Provo IRA was fighting a religious campaign to further Catholicism? you clearly do not understand anything about Islam or recent NI history and politics.

    • Anton

      Ask her to account for suras 8 & 9.

    • Inspector General

      hmmm… ‘Not really muslim’ gives us that your daughter in law accepts they are muslim but wishes they weren’t so violent. No doubt the bombers would accept said woman is also a muslim, but not a very good one if she cannot understand a principle dogma thereof – the killing of the infidel….

    • IanCad

      Some interesting posts from you on this thread. Very thoughtful.

  • Dreadnaught

    “British Muslims Fear Repercussions Over Tomorrow’s Train Bombing” is now joined by “Belgian Cabinet Minister Says Tomorrow’s Train Bombing Is All Our Fault.

    When the shock and anger dies down it will be just one more to add to the 28,000 Islamist terror attacks since 9/11 but don’t tell the apologists for Islam; it will appear racist or islamophobic, closed minded – we should be blaming ourselves if the Lefties have there way.
    Nothing ‘Radicalises’ better than the Koran, Hadith and Sura – accept no substitute – look no further.

    http://www.steynonline.com/7493/tomorrow-civilizational-cringe-today

  • Inspector General

    Unfortunate Belgium. They will learn nothing from this latest suffering. Islamic immigration into the country will continue, unabated, as the Belgians (the politicians, that is) seek to go down the road of perceived social correctness and declare Belgium a continuing cuddly destination for Islam, where adherents can enjoy mass unemployment and social exclusion from a white European society they despise. In fact, it might even INCREASE for a time.

    Now, interestingly, the United Kingdom DID learn something from the far worse attack in 2005. Sadly, it wasn’t to put a stop to unwanted unskilled Islamic immigration but the next step down. Older communicants on this site will remember when our capital was routinely called ‘Londistan’. And rightly so, one might add. A place were Saracen terrorists from all over could flee to for safety (their so called human right to do what the hell they like without fear of deportation protected thanks to the satanic court that is the ECHR), set up hate shop, and preach their murder within or without the mosque, the latter under the noses of the smiling British bobby who had been warned on no account interfere with these people otherwise they the police would be disgusting racists. Fortunately for us, the same self-serving political type who would have issued that appalling denouncement of our lads in blue now shrill a different message: “Stop these people from murdering the rest of us before I get the blame and lose my seat!”

    One does think the Belgians will be sending over a delegation to the Home Office on a fact finding mission rather soon. They’ll find quite a few facts to take home – 10 years worth…

    • dannybhoy

      I posted this cartoon over at Hannah’s blog

      http://www.jewishpress.com/wp-content/uploads/belgium-support.jpg

      • Inspector General

        and damn good it is too!

      • Good one! An acquaintance got excited about doing something showy to femonstrate “Jewish solidarity with Belgium” and got upset when I told her I’d donate a poster saying, “Ya shoulda lissened!” This cartoon would do it better.

    • Hi

      Inspector for PM!

      • Huzzah! All for iy, for surely he’ll remember his good buddy, Avi, and invite him for a swim in his new scotch-filled swimming pool, to float about amidst an armada of bobbing little boats of sushi and shmaltz herring.

        • dannybhoy

          For those who are interested as to why Belgium’s only claim to fame is as a host for terrorism, here’s an interesting link written by the Palestine International Institute.
          It’s worth a read because imo God is not mocked. If you align yourself against His word and His people there are consequences.
          I’m not saying Israel is always right or that she is excused criticism. But as Christians we have to accept that God keeps His word, even if we don’t.

          • Anton

            Where’s the link?

          • dannybhoy

            Sorry Anton it should be up there now..
            (Got carried away….. :0)

    • Ivan M

      Belgium should be broken up into Flemish and Walloon regions. The same should be the case with the UK, split into England and Scotland. The current arrangements make it possible for the Walloons and Scots to free ride Flemish and English security arrangements and concern to do their moral preening. Let them meet the cost of it, if they wish to continue with it.

      • Inspector General

        The Scots are soon to have the right to set their own tax rates. Excellent. The beginning of the end of the present one party set up they currently endure…

        • CliveM

          I hope you are right.

  • Inspector General

    If two brothers, a few others and of course, a support network provided by the extremist Islamic community that locally be can achieve that degree of devastation in Brussels, apparently at short notice we are told, as a reply to one of their Paris men being lifted, then London has but a short time to prepare.

    So, in the spirit of assistance, the Inspector offers this to the good people who dwell in the palace of Westminster…

    “We, this house, roundly condemn the terrorist attack on ________ in _______ and ________ and ______ . Furthermore, HM Government will do everything in its power to stop the next ones due here using every means at its disposal short of re-instating border controls and immigration quotas which served this Kingdom so well in the past until the monstrous creation that is the EU dismantled them.”

  • CliveM

    I’m in France, was watching TV yesterday, appalled at the latest atrocity. During the break, what did I see? A French Government paid for advert condemning the evils of Islamophobia.

    It’s a strange old world.

    • They are just trying to get on the right side of their future masters.

    • dannybhoy

      Having screwed up big time, our European Wise Men are terrified of the consequences of their misthinking.
      How’s this gonna look come elections?
      We don’t do elections??
      Relax Francois, calm down Frau Angular.,..

    • carl jacobs

      I’m in France,

      I’m sorry. Were you bad?

      • CliveM

        Very…………..

  • chiefofsinners

    Stay in the EU! See how it delivers rivers of gravy for us all.
    That is gravy isn’t it? I think so..,.

    • dannybhoy

      Ketchup old chap, ketch up. It ain’t gravy…

      • chiefofsinners

        Sorry, graves.

        • Old Nick

          Most highly flavoured gravy ?

  • There seems to be a lot of dead-end discussion over the Koran, Bible, meaning of Islam, good and bad Muslims.

    Many religious scripture contain dictates which belong to another era, to another situation and seem extreme, inappropriate and cruel to us. But healthy cultures will make for functional religions and find a path between the cruelties of unalyering literal fundamentalism and defeatist, relativistic reformism and unltra-liberalism.

    There is no highway map, though. The Almighty gave us His teachings and a superb, over-powered, redundant-capacity brain capable of the worst and the highest. That’s the bit that has to interact with the data consisting of received instructions and our iwn natures.

    So, we can point to all sorts of oddities and shockers in our foundational scriptures and blame or hail them, but in the end, how we determine such things like what is set in stone and what not, what “real” Islam, Christianity or Judaism are and such, will depend on our histories, cultural qualities and the civilizations we have built.

    • dannybhoy

      You’ve got to know where your faith started, the historical context and so on. Your moral values must be fixed though, so that you can adjust to progress without abandoning the integrity of your beliefs.
      We know that Judaism has adapted, as has Christianity.
      I think the difference with Christianity is that for long centuries the Church ruled and interpreted Christianity for the people.
      Most of whom could not read and were reliant on the priests.

      • Old Nick

        And therefore produced sentences without main verbs.

        • Anton

          Truly a shocking thing!

      • Where religion is concerned, I’d say that reading is vastly over-rated. Yes, Judaism and later, Protestantism, brought it to the fore, but where Judaism is concerned, provisions for the illerate still remain. Instructions to read and even to copy a Torah notwithstanding, we have the Oral Torah and are commanded to hear it. Religion is a mix of personal and social, communal acts for which literacy is not a requirement, and the push towards umiversal literacy, I think, has more to do with blunting the power and growth of bureacratic classes, than with proper worship.

        • dannybhoy

          If you mean by reading that it is not necessarily the best medium for communicating thoughts and reflections I would agree with you.
          For example Rabbi Saul/Apostle Paul is often thought of as severe or rigid in his thinking, but looking at the wide spectrum of his writings, this is not the case.
          If we sat down with him face to face we would have a completely different opinion of the man.
          Not that his ethical stance would be different, but his humanity would be fuller. Same with Moshe Rabbenu. Avraham comes across as a thoroughly nice chap anyway.
          So in the case of moral codes writing them down and reading them is fine. In Christianity it is more to do with how these values were played out in the life of the early believers, and thats where it gets more like life under the written Torah and how God interacted with your ancestors
          I am intrigued by the Oral Law Avi.
          In five years of Israeli life I never really came across people who emphasised this. Perhaps because only the devout as opposed to the (merely) observant, would talk about it with a Christian?

    • The Explorer

      When the current British Home Secretary says that ISIS is a perversion of Islam (and hence so are the Brussels bombings, since they are ISIS-inspired) then it seems to me that discussion about the meaning of Islam and good/bad Muslims is not dead end but highly relevant. The view taken by our rulers, after all, will determine domestic and foreign policy.

      • It’s a dead end in in that it is a transparent capitulation to social and political pressures from constituents and a feeble excuse for our domestic policies to continue business as usual.

    • Dreadnaught

      The big difference between the three monotheisms is that those dictates that reflect the standards (ie punishments of the era) are left there more as footnotes and salutory warnings. Islam however is constructed to be read and applied literally today as it did whenever it was written.
      Deviation from this medieval ideology is very much alive and well. It cannot be amended as to do so would be haram. This is why ISIS (and the rest) is right when it says it is interpreting Sharia in the only way and doing what it does, not only with impunity but in the belief that it is simply acting out the will of its god and after the ways of a prophet.

      • You make valid points…but from a secular perspective. TheTorah is not a historic document with archival footnotes and salutory warnings; it is an eternally valid covenant meant to be read and interpreted on many levels, beginning with the literal.

        Christianity re-wrote the Covenant under the guidance of claimed revealed instructions and traditional Judaism withdrew, without rejecting the morality or importance of a single provision, from some of its features through an eleborate legalistic process which essentially disqualified the halakhic jurists of our time from ruling on capital crimes and executing proscribed penalties. Because justice is the “prime directive,” and because we are no longer competent in carrying it out perfectly, we recuse our selves and transfer such cases to God’s judgment.

        • Dreadnaught

          The point I was making was that in as much as stoning, beheading, burning were deemed appropriate in your ancient texts as capital punishment for certain misdemeanors they are not carried through today. By all means correct me if you have recently been to the occasional ox stoning for goring at a Calgary bash or similar; that sort of stuff doesn’t make the headlines here anymore.

          • The point that you are making is that we live in a New Era and in the elevated, all but messianictimes of the GreatToday, such crimes are ludicrous and such punishments are abhorrent.

            Permit me to crank wider the angle on reality to remind you that we live in a very recent and likely to be short-living, historically unprecedented bubble of good times with levels of secirity, policing and judicial administration never witnessed before. For the majority of the world’s population such conditions were undreamed of and unattainable. To hold back the savagery of social anarchy without the expense and means to police and regulate, they have had to rely on draconian laws and penalties. When you don’t have thousands of police cruisers patrolling your streets, cadres of kawyers and judges and billion dollar correctiinal facilities, crude deterrence by fear and example and elimination of the criminal are your only options.

            The Torah lays out what to us seem like harsh laws (but until recently were unremarkable or even excessively liberal). It sets out limits on severity, but is vague on mitigations. This is our job, then; to improve our societies, to make them kinder and gentler…but without desyroying them. As creatures with a free will made in God’s image, partners in God’s work of Creation, we have the ability to modify certain commandments pertaining to our social order if and only if, this will secure more justice for everyone…not just the accused. We don’t have the mandate to abrogate the laws and the oenslties, or the competence to deem them as expired or unjust for all time, past or future. The laws you now snicker at as primitive throw-backs were and may again be the life-line of communities, nations and humanity.

          • Dreadnaught

            The laws you now snicker at as primitive throw-backs were and may again be the life-line of communities, nations and humanity.

            Snickering at beheadings is the last thing I do; I leave that to IS and its supporters. I’m surprised that you seem to be condoning the practise.

          • dannybhoy

            He isn’t. He’s referring to how it was then. The only cultures that have truly progressed are those adhering to Judaeo/Christian values.
            Has there been a blossoming of civilisation amongst the aboriginal peoples of the world?
            No.
            The Muslim world?
            No.
            Original African cultures?
            No.
            All have progressed to the extent they have embraced Judaeo/Christian values.

          • Dreadnaught

            Read the lines I highlighted in italics – it makes perfect sense that he is referring to today.
            ‘may again be the lifeline’ etc… ‘may again!’

          • dannybhoy

            “The laws you now snicker at as primitive throw-backs were and may again be the life-line of communities, nations and humanity.”
            c/w
            “The Torah lays out what to us seem like harsh laws (but until recently were unremarkable or even excessively liberal). It sets out limits on severity, but is vague on mitigations. This is our job, then; to improve our societies, to make them kinder and gentler…but without desyroying them. As creatures with a free will made in God’s image, partners in God’s work of Creation, we have the ability to modify certain commandments pertaining to our social order if and only if, this will secure more justice for everyone…not just the accused.”
            Avi is saying that it is the Torah God’s laws which have enabled us to progress and build better, more provisioned societies. But that progress remains founded on God’s law.
            We didn’t get where we are in the West by lucky dips or democracy. There had to be more to it, such as belief in a holy moral, Creator God.

          • Dreadnaught

            The whole of what I have said is that unlike IS and the Islamic Sharia code of punishment Christianity and Judaism do not pursue barbaric punishment in the name of their faith. My position is no more complicated than that. I’m Sorry I mentioned it.

          • dannybhoy

            Well written Avi, and true to history. We take our freedoms and values for granted at our own peril.
            As the Yanks say, “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
            Don’t mess with God because..
            a) Whatever He says is for our own good anyway,
            and
            b) You never win..

  • Ivan M

    You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one… 🙂

  • dannybhoy

    (mournfullly)

    “There must be a way to help me forget that you’re real….”

    • sarky

      Jack Daniels?

  • Anton

    Is that a mathematical pun (on real and imaginary numbers)?

    • sarky

      I wish it was, but I’m not that smart.

  • Ivan M

    Never. That part of the song was the worst of it. You would not want to be me, nor I you. We are uniquely different and that is the way it should be. The bloody song was a paen to hippie communism. Lennon was a bourgeois hypocrite.

    • sarky

      Easy tiger! !!!!

  • len

    Radical Islam is a political system masquerading as a ‘religion’ hence the name Islamic ‘State’. Islamic State uses fear, intimidation, and repression much as was used in Hitler`s Germany and Stalin’s Russia., North Korea ,and other dictatorships have used the same methods of repression and are doing so today.
    The accusation has been made that ‘Christianity’ has used harsh methods in the past to punish criminals and this is a false accusation.
    Christianity grew out of and is a progression from Judaism.’The harsh laws’ were used to keep the fallen nature of man in check until the Messiah was able to come into this World as prophesied in the scriptures.

    The have been all sorts of wars fought in the name of ‘Christianity’ but these were not done under any sort of authority from the leader of the’ Christians ‘ Jesus Christ Himself.

    Jesus Christ made it clear that a New Era had begun with Himself but there is no such progression in Radical Islam .Islam cannot change itself, cannot progress, it remains fixed in time fighting the same battles as it did in the time of its founder Mohammed.There is no salvation in Islam only death that is why radical Islam is a ‘death cult ‘glorifying death causing death to its followers and to everyone it touches.

    Only Jesus Christ can give Life to His followers.

  • Royinsouthwest

    If Christians were really following their calling I wonder how many of those people who get “radicalised” would instead experience a genuine conversion?

  • CliveM

    Glasgow mosque leader praises extremist killer
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35893123

    Am interesting article. Claims he has been misinterpreted, however his comments seem plain enough to me.

  • DP111

    RT reports that so many Muslim migrants and their families are seeking baptism , that there is huge waiting list.

    The pastors realise that some may not be genuine, and only a ploy to avoid deportation, but they pray all the same for the newly converted, and trust in His Grace and mercy.

    Happy Easter to all.

    • Anton

      It is up to the pastors to verify repentance.

    • hereward

      Give ’em the bacon sandwich test .