Society and Social Structures

Grenfell Tower tragedy becomes an anti-Tory hate-fest

Perhaps only those who have lost everything can even begin to understand the trauma of the Grenfell Tower inferno. And even then, the loss that comes with abandonment or flood leaves hope of a living monument or a few soggy memories. But fire is total: the heat and flames burn your whole life to ash – the love letters of youth, photos of mum and gramps, your favourite stripey summer shirt, a thousand CDs and DVDs of laughter and tears, and the hamster. Where could he have got to? No light switches work. The windows are all tinted with black and brown smoke stains. It’s so dank, and everything reeks of bonfire. In the dimness you crawl on your hands and knees over scorched carpets and comb every inch with a spoon to try and find something… anything… a thought, a ring, a hamster. You find his little body beneath a charred sofa, covered in cinders and dust. He managed to escape from his cage – a mini-universe of plastic tunnels and tubes – and thought he’d found shelter from the blaze raging above, but there was no way out after that. The whole room became his cage and then his tomb. I’m so sorry your life was brief. Let me wash your little body under the tap and wrap you up in a white handkerchief. Please remember me in hammy heaven. RIP little one.

All those who once lived in Grenfell Tower are now homeless and destitute; many are bereaved and grieving; others are still searching, hoping. Unidentified bodies are still smouldering, and there’s not much hope. There’s actually no hope. We don’t yet know how many souls perished, but the 17 confirmed is expected to rise to more than 100. It is the worst fire in Britain since the Second World War. And in this pit of suffering there is great anger – understandable, justifiable rage – for Grenfell Tower was jam-packed with the poorest people in Kensington, the richest of London boroughs, with marbled billionaire mansions, manicured gardens and a royal palace at the south end, and the third-world deprivation of densely-packed concrete tower blocks in the north. The rich people have got fire alarms and sprinklers. Apparently Grenfell Tower did not. And the stairwell fire escape was blocked. And the whole tower was clad in a flammable plastic façade.

And all that’s the Tories’ fault.

Apparently.

Yesterday Theresa May visited the scene privately (no media) but was advised for security reasons not to meet with the victims, so she talked and listened to policemen and fireman and councillors and coordinators. Then Jeremy Corbyn descended with an entourage of cameras and press photographers, and this thousand-word picture circled the earth:

Corbyn May Grenfell Tower visit

Theresa May: cold, aloof, uncaring, nasty, evil.

Jeremy Corbyn: warm, caring, loving, compassionate, Christ-like.

The Labour leader was quick to blame “Tory cuts” for the tragedy. He did so within a few hours of the news unfolding, and his socialist brotherhood and sisterhood soon piled in. They instinctively never miss an opportunity to bash the Tories, but to make political capital out of the prematurely-cremated poor ones of Kensington was an egregious exploitation which fanned the flames of a money-raking media hate-fest against the Tories.

There are hundreds of examples, but consider Jon Snow’s interview on Channel 4 News with singer Lily Allen (why?) last night. Her opening statement was an anti-Tory diatribe:

Well I think there needs to be questions answered about fire regulations and why, you know, a bill was meant to be passed was voted against by 312 Tory Conservative, you know, Conservative MPs, 80 of which I hear are landlords. There has to be a conflict of interest there, um, and that needs to be investigated.

This was her primary concern: to root out political corruption among Conservatives. The Rt Rev’d Pete Broadbent, Bishop of London (acting), was quick to reach the same judgment:

Broadbent Grenfell conspire

We clearly don’t need to waste £millions on a public inquiry when celebrities, journalists and bishops have already determined cause and guilt. Funny how none of them are asking why the stairwell escape route was blocked. Did Theresa May conspire with Boris one night to cram it with old sofas and stained mattresses so the stinking poor refugees they despise so much could grow fat going up and down 21 floors in a lift so they’d die sooner and decrease the surplus immigrant population? The Royal Borough Council may have made mistakes. They could be culpable. Individual Tories may have acted in self-interest or out of incompetence, as might the company commissioned and paid £millions to clad the tower blocks. It isn’t as though the cladding fire risks weren’t known (see here and here), so why not spend an extra £5,000 and do the job to maximise people’s safety? Or don’t they matter because they’re poor?

There are many pertinent questions of fact and conjecture here, but why leap to exploit this tragedy so precipitously with condemnation of a whole political ideology under the guise of worshipping the God of justice? Sensible reflection and compassion are worth more to God and man than cheap political shots. Isn’t it the primary duty of a bishop to be a focus of unity?

The “small state” isn’t intrinsically evil, and partnership with “big business” is by no means all conspiratorial or detrimental to human flourishing. But, hey, these are right-wing Tory headbangers and scum, and, as we know, Toryism is a work of the Devil. They are all morally delinquent for cutting fire services and police services and slashing health and safety regulations to a bear minimum – especially for the poor. They are all just as wicked as each other – they don’t care about widows and orphans, and so God must judge them, initially through Bishop Pete’s Twitter feed, and then through an imminent general election defeat when Saint Jeremy will be vindicated – he of all mercy, love and compassion.

But even he can’t resurrect hamsters.

  • David

    This is a most appalling tragedy, and huge trauma has been suffered by both the victims and the survivors. One can only sympathise with all those impacted, and really words fail us…
    The full truth may, and I say may, emerge after a full inquiry, the results of which will only emerge in some years time. Any inquiry will be only yield good, truthful results if it is not influenced by politics.
    But it seems that our obsession with combatting what is claimed to be, “man-made global warming”, and therefore achieving energy saving, may have encouraged many buildings being retro-fitted with a shiny outer sheathing or cladding, even at the cost of forgetting more important matters like safety. I understand that the cladding comprised the widely used and inflammable cellotex, sandwiched between two sheets of aluminium, attached with a thin air gap between it and the original outer facade; such an air gap would act of course as a chimney drawing in fresh air from the bottom to feed and fan the growing flames upwards. These re-cladding operations are also sold as “modernisation”, whatever that sloppy word means, but essentially it is about image, but at what cost in risking human life ?
    But underneath all that it I ponder over this. If as by the early 70s, the lessons had been learnt that tower blocks were socially disastrous for all but the well-off and childless, why are such monstrosities still standing ? Why have they not been replaced by low-rise housing, which in cities needs to be high density. I recall that in the 80s some towers were demolished. Is this linked to the capital’s very rapid increase of population, as Blair’s government’s turned on the taps of endless inward immigration ? I am not sure but I do know that the total sum of causes leading to this terrible tragedy are far wider than just the purely technical failures, and extend outwards into the spheres of politics, economics and successive government’s policies regarding our national demographic overload, especially in the cities, and particularly London. But will politicians allow us to really stand back and really see the full picture ? And will all the lessons be learnt ?

    • Anton

      Paragraph 8 of the relevant (EU) directive on improving the energy performance of buildings:

      Measures to improve further the energy performance of buildings should take into account climatic and local conditions as well as indoor climate environment and cost-effectiveness. These measures should not affect other requirements concerning buildings such as accessibility, safety and the intended use of the building. (Emphasis mine.)

      http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/;ELX_SESSIONID=FZMjThLLzfxmmMCQGp2Y1s2d3TjwtD8QS3pqdkhXZbwqGwlgY9KN!2064651424?uri=CELEX:32010L0031

      • David

        Thank you. Was it Blair that signed us up to the impossible to achieve zero carbon targets ? But anyway successive governments of various colours have felt under considerable pressure to reduce the energy used in domestic buildings. Behind it all is the theory of man-made global warming, about which I have long held my doubts. It seems that safety has been eclipsed by other matters. But many other factors come into all this of course.

        • Anton

          Britain is presently committed by Gordon Brown’s Climate Change Act of 2008 to an 80% reduction in carbon dioxide emissions from the 1990 level by 2050.

      • Simon Platt

        I’m afraid “should” is weak. I mean, it is easily ignored.

        • Anton

          A word like that makes councils liable in the event of disaster, as I expect we shall see. You would generally expect it therefore to exert a significant deterrent effect.

          • Simon Platt

            I’m afraid I think that’s not so.

          • Anton

            You are clearly right in this instance of this regulation.

      • Dreadnaught

        A child nightdress has to have a fire resistance label. Wrap her home in inflammable polystyrene and you can get away with it because the law has not obligated you to consider the possiblity that it could burn like a Ku Klux Klan Cross.

    • Manfarang

      Weren’t all the churches anti-birth control at one time?

      • Anton

        Because it was associated with prostitution. When married couples started using it, the churches needed to take a closer look at what God had said in scripture.

        • Manfarang

          Contraception was officially disallowed by non-Catholic Christians until 1930 when the Anglican Communion changed its policy. Soon after, according to Flann Campbell, most Protestant groups came to accept the use of modern contraceptives as a matter of what they considered Biblically allowable freedom of conscience.
          So how much freedom of conscience is there?

          • Anton

            I suggest you return to the subject of the fire.

          • Manfarang

            Well there we go.

          • A slam dunk, as our American cousins might say.

          • No answer, then?

          • Anton

            Manfarang is fond of diversions and although I was drawn briefly I’m not interested in discussing freedom of conscience regarding contraception on this thread about the London fire.

          • Sola scriptura and individual interpretation of scripture permits all sorts of moral evils.

          • Anton

            Better to have freedom to get your interpretation right than certainty to have it wrong.

          • Except the only certainty is that the Church gets it right and individuals do not.

          • Anton

            I’m not going to do the Reformation here. Readers may see Jack and I on this subject on previous threads. Your decorum and timing are execrable.

          • Manfarang

            And maybe some goods things .Adam and Eve were vegetarians.

          • Yeah, that’s why they ate the apple.

          • Manfarang

            A bit of the flesh more like.

          • Royinsouthwest

            As you know perfectly well Jack it was a being in the guise of an animal that did the tempting.

          • That slipped Jack’s mind, Roy.

        • Please provide evidence that contraception was associated with prostitution and this was the moral objection to its use. You keep asserting this and never substantiate the claim. You may wish to consider the views of Lambeth Conferences in the early 20th Century and the views of the Church Fathers and protestants like Luther and Calvin.

          • Anton

            “Please provide evidence that contraception was associated with prostitution”

            Grow up.

          • You can’t because there is none.

          • Anton

            No evidence that contraception was associated with prostitution? Use your mind. You think that whores want to be out of the game pregnant half the time?

          • Point to one Christian writer who argued it was immoral because prostitutes used artificial methods of contraception, rather than immoral because it was against God’s will for man.

        • Ivan M

          Prostitutes generally don’t rely on condoms to avoid getting pregnant. Avoiding STDs yes. The johns don’t like using them.

    • IanCad

      An excellent post David, and “man-made global warming” is the belief system of both the RIBA and the BRE. Brexit also features high on their list of phobias.

    • Ivan M

      If it is indeed the cladding that was responsible then responsibility for this lies with the Building Control Authority or its equivalent. Those engineers have to see to it that that materials used in construction meet the safety standards. The other bunch of people I’d look at is the residents themselves. Those bums that block the passageways with furniture, rotting mattresses and newspapers have to answer for it. Or the fire could have taken of them. The UK fire service does not seem to have the high rise fire fighting equipment that are standard in many countries.

    • CliveM

      All of which maybe true, but that doesn’t absolve those with responsibility from blame, or place the blame on a belief in man made global warming.

      • Step11Recovery

        It’s worth noting an alternative explanation, namely that the modernization was undertaken because the better-off residents of the area felt that sight of the tower blocks was blighting their property prices.

        A little too tinfoil hat for me – I’d need some pretty convincing evidence, but no more outrageous than the ecological activism theory.

  • CliveM

    Well were use to seeing lawyers and politicians ambulance chasing for either monetary or political gain. It looks like we now need to add Bishops to that list.

  • len

    The most important thing now is action.
    Define the cause of the rapid spread of this fire and make safe the residents in similar Tower blocks.
    Apportion blame after action has been taken.

  • Dolphinfish

    I’m glad we’re not rushing headlessly around blaming all this on those awful Tories when a quick glance at some of the comments up here clearly shows it was all down to those beastly foreigners in Brussels.

    • Anton

      For the purpose of clarification, and without assuming you are referring to me, I pasted an EU regulation below which was explicit that safety should *not* be compromised when improving the energy performance of buildings.

    • Simon Platt

      All those comments must have been deleted in the last hour.

    • Hi

      But the great helmsman and dear leader JC has said the state should engage in property theft of the London homes of the” beastly” as you put it rich foreigners , to home the survivors and homeless people generally…

      • Anton

        That should not happen. Nevertheless some of the new apartment blocks recently built by the Thames are largely ghost blocks as they are used simply as a store of value by wealthy foreigners. That should not be.

      • Manfarang

        A Leninist to the core.

  • Dreadnaught

    I’m afraid the Tory Party has learned nothing from the Corbyn phenomenon. We are in the age of instant communication that crosses traditional boundaries of Class and status. Even the lowly can have the same access to thousands of ears and eyes that were once the preserve of Newspapers and black and white TV. We saw it after the death of Diana and the effect it had on the Royals.
    Turning up for a private visit is about as lame as not entering into open debate on TV; it send completely the wrong message and provides yet another sucker punch opportunity for the Corbynistas. It would have been easy to find a , nearby venue to meet with the victims and relatives and council leaders.
    Read what the residents own blog has been saying for four years and how the Management Organisation tried to shut it down.

    KCTMO – Playing with fire! | Grenfell Action Group
    grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com

    • BigMach

      The new Labour MP for Kensington, Emma Dent Coad, is on the management committee that oversees Grenfell Tower. Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation are the managers on behalf of the council.

      • Dreadnaught

        Was she on that before an elected MP? If so she should also be getting a grilling. (oops nothing improper intended)

        • Andy

          She was a council-appointed board member from 2008 to 31st October 2012. She has been shooting her mouth off, but lets haul her over the coals and find our what she did regarding this block when on the board. After all she had direct responsibility.

          • Dreadnaught

            Very interesting – thanks for the heads up.

          • gunnerbear

            I think as a Labour Councillor, Dent Coad was a minority member – the Council has been Conservative since it was created. As I said, I think there’s enough in the s**t bucket to spray over lots of people…..

          • Andy

            Doesn’t matter. She was a Board Member – end of story. In the absence of evidence to the contrary she must have voted in favour of the refurbishment and signed off the specification (you can read it in the Planning page of the Council website) so she needs to be called to account.

          • gunnerbear

            Yep…..and every single member of the Blue Council who are the ultimate controllers of the housing stock need to be held to account to….but yep….pick out a Red to blame….. …I’m sure it will make all the Blue supporters feel much better…..

          • Andy

            Well you’ve been busy blaming any and every Tory for this, so it is amusing you get so pissy when the tables are turned. Like it or not she was a Board Member, so let her be made to account for her role in the refurbishment. Also if you read the planning papers you will see the residents were involved in the process, but not one of them seems to have raised the matter of a sprinkler system.

          • gunnerbear

            Can I not make it any clearer….I hope the inquiry is headed by a judge like Haddon-Cave who will rip everyone a new if there is a case for them to answer…..let the chips fall where they may…and then change the regulations if needed to prevent it happening again. I’m willing to bet, up in the HoCs there will be Reds rightly in the s***te as well because they were HMG recently. The point I was making was that despite numerous issues being raised a Blue Moron essentially blames the dead…. …like I said, I think there is more than enough in the s**t bucket to cover everyone… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4602672/May-adviser-failied-act-warnings-tower-fire.html

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            Except the “Blue Council” are not “the ultimate controllers of the housing stock”.

            K&C own the buildings but they are managed by Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), which came about because of the choice of the tenants.
            http://www.kctmo.org.uk/main/8/about-us

            And no-one is saying Dent Coad has liability because she is a “Red” councillor but because she was one of the directors of KCTMO.

          • gunnerbear

            The Blue Council are the ones that ultimately carry the can….that’s the way it works….just as the PM carries it when HMG f**ks up on a regular basis…

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            Except that the PM, quite rightly, isn’t held to account for every mistake made by someone who works, directly or indirectly, for HMG. If, say, a police officer in London illegally hits someone and they die then he will be in trouble and his immediate superiors may be (e.g. if they knew that she was violent). But Khan, Rudd & May won’t be prosecuted for it.

            The estate is managed by KCTMO. If the board of KCTMO chose to, as seems to be the case, an unsafe design using unsafe materials then they should be held responsible.

            If someone(s) working for KCTMO made those decision and the board were deceived (or could not reasonably have known the flaws) then the decision makers will be blamed and not the board.

            As the council only appoint four of the 15 board members I cannot see how any blame will be attached to them.

          • gunnerbear

            Can’t see how any blame will be attached to the Council……hmmm…I wouldn’t bet on that…people have died in public housing in one of the richest areas of one of the worlds few truly global cities….there is a s**t-storm of blame coming…. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/eight-failures-left-people-grenfell-tower-mercy-inferno/

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            Well, you link to an article that says there may have been a number of the problems with the way that the refurbishment was done and the building was managed – all matters that rest with KCTMO not the council.

            You are determined to blame the ‘Blue’ council, seemingly just because they are ‘Blue’, so there is no point in continuing this.

          • gunnerbear

            The Council have final oversight…that’s why the Dep. Leader of the Council holds the housing portfolio….. …hence my point about there being more than enough blame to cover all sorts of failures including those of Red and Blue HMGs…. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4610158/Grenfell-Tower-contractor-DROPPED-save-council-1-6m.html …you’ll note I’m sure where the final authority for cost control and bidder selection was resting. Perhaps you’ll also note this comment from a BTL poster…. “Successive incompetent Governments have left this country in a shambolic state.”….I think that sort of says it all….

  • Royinsouthwest

    I am old enough to remember the Aberfan disaster when 116 children and 28 adults were killed when a coal tip slid down the mountainside and engulfed their school. The subsequent inquiry blamed the National Coal Board which had ignored warnings and failed to take sensible precautions. Therefore a nationalised industry was to blame.

    Understandably the disaster caused considerable anger but I do not recall recriminations starting so soon afterwards. Some of the parents might have expressed their anger in the aftermath, and Lord Robens, the Chairman of the National Coal Board was criticised for his slow response but politicians, church leaders and journalists and broadcasters, while raising questions, did not rush to apportion blame in the same as is happening in the immediate aftermath of the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

    It may well prove to be the case that the government under Cameron and May (and perhaps local government as well) has been negligent in the matter of safety standards for high rise buildings, and possibly negligent in other ways too. If so their will be a political price to pay which will be negligible compared to that paid by the victims of the disaster and their families. However we do need to establish the facts first.

    • David

      I suggest that the “causes” of this sad tragedy go back a long way, right back to the conception of that block and the manner in which it was built, and subsequently physically amended, then managed and used by the inhabitants. The totality of “the causes” is a far more complex I’d imagine than just those influences that occurred during a the premiership of Cameron or May. Hopefully a full, non-political analysis will emerge. And in the meanwhile can anything be done now to make safe or safer those who live in the other 80 or so such towers ?

      • Merchantman

        Immediate safety audit of the remaining 80 towers and a qualified safety officer to be living on site with wide powers.
        I look forward to reading the report.

        • IanCad

          Only an American company could be relied on to produce a full, comprehensive report.
          the UK Building/Safety gang is unfit for purpose.

    • CliveM

      IT will be nice to have a few facts available. What we seem to have is media analysis and speculation. Which is not the same thing.

      I suspect everyone from the late 90’s with any responsibility for the safety of housing, including the last two Conservative led Govts, will have to take a large chunk of blame.

      • gunnerbear

        Yup…I think they’ll be enough in the s**t bucket to spray lots of Blues and Reds and Yellows and stacks of public servants….

    • gs_schweik

      Good comment. I too remember Aberfan and there was a lot more humanity in the immediate reaction to that….

      • Step11Recovery

        That’s a little harsh – the response of people to the Grenfell Tower tragedy has been, in the main, pretty wonderful. The local authority could have been a bit more helpful though.

        • Inspector General

          You must be joking. See the BBC video of the storming of Kensington town hall. If a riot doesn’t result in the coming days as more dead are notified, we’ll be damn fortunate.

          • Dreadnaught

            Rioters love a hot summer weekend to go on the rob.

          • Step11Recovery

            I have seen the coverage. And, sadly, I’m not surprised. In my Trotskyist youth I and my comrades would have seized such an opportunity. But don’t confuse them with the many, many sincere kind and generous people that have contributed materiel, money and frequently themselves to try and help those in need.

          • Inspector General

            You have to remember you are not dealing with British temperament. 7 o’clock news tonight featured what can only be described as typical ‘black female attitude’. In one’s own experience, some of these types are on a hair trigger on a good day…

          • Step11Recovery

            Well I have a little experience myself, having been married to one of those ‘types’ for a few decades now. And you, if I might speak plainly, are not exactly a model of self-control now, are you.

          • Inspector General

            Let the truth out, sir, every time. Let everyone face each other with all the facts. And one is not ethnically British.

          • Step11Recovery

            Just teasing. You’d like my wife. To describe her politics as right-wing is in the very finest tradition of British understatement. She makes you look like Polly Toynbee.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Well, (if I may make a light-hearted comment) when Polly Toynbee goes on holiday the Guardian will know who to turn to as a temporary replacement.

          • Dreadnaught

            ‘Comrades’ ? bloody rioting hooligans in masks wrecking and thieving from honest businesses. Not my kind of Brit then or now. I had genuine comrades who laid down their lives for their country, not to destabilise it or over throw its elected administration.

          • Step11Recovery

            It’s a term of art. And my youth was a very long time ago now. If you read any sort approval in my comment then I’m afraid I haven’t expressed myself very well.

            For the record, now I have grown up, my views are much closer to yours.

          • Royinsouthwest

            I did not see it. Were the people who stormed the town hall survivors of the fire, or relatives of the survivors, or a rent-a-mob group of protestors?

          • Inspector General

            Yes to all. Or so it looked.

    • gunnerbear

      If modern media had existed back then, the response would have been very, very different….

  • How true this article is. One also notes the coverage has become a celebration of multiculturalism.

    When Jack read this post at the beginning of the week, he thought Mr M. was being too harsh, but perhaps not:

    The horrible tragedy which unfolded in London last night led me to think – as always – of the eternal destiny of the dead whilst the media focus – as always – on easy emotions …

    A tragedy of such dimensions took place in what appears to have been a “council house” (things aren’t called they way they are anymore these days, so who knows), which I suppose (like many others) vastly over represented with heathens and atheist, but certainly also with many good Christians living behind those walls.

    The latter (the Christians) certainly had it easier to manage a perfect contrition, and the Lord in His mercy may have saved them from the worse. But as to the others…

    How many, who have lived in perfect godlessness, discover God when death approaches? How many, linked to the cruel, false religion of a child rapist in the middle of Europe, have been able to claim invincible ignorance after dying in their perverted cult?

    The crude reality is that if you live like an atheist or an infidel you will probably die an atheist or infidel. No, there are no brownie points for an early death. Death is, actually, never one day earlier than God has decreed or allowed. What counts is the state of the soul at the moment of death, and no emotional reporting of the Buggers Broadcasting Communism will change a iota in that.

    As always, let us use these shocking event for a sobering reminder: the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. When my hour strikes, will I be prepared?

    Pray for the dead of the fire, and take care that these moment instil in you a stronger desire to be prepared at all times.

    https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/late-conversions/

    • Royinsouthwest

      If Jesus was physically present now and met the survivors of the fire I doubt if He would talk to them in the manner of Mundabor.

      • How He receives them after their death is what actually counts. That’s the point he’s making. Jack recalls Him saying “Let the dead bury their dead.”

        • Merchantman

          Steady on, we don’t know who will be saved here, do we? It’s a terrible tragedy and I think Jesus probably weeps in this situation; but I understand Mundabor point.

          • “Steady on, we don’t know who will be saved here, do we?”
            Read the comment again, it’s the point Mr M is making. And, it’s a point no bishop dare make in these times.
            Jesus wept because human sin causes so much needless suffering

      • Step11Recovery

        I share your doubts. I’m curious about his final paragraph though. Surely, in the remorseless calculus of the fundamentalist, praying for the dead is pointless. Anyone not an declared Christian at the time of their death in that fire will spend eternity in one infinitely worse. Infants, the mentally handicapped, those suffering from dementia, makes no difference. God is Love.

        • Royinsouthwest

          God will decide, not me or you or Happy Jack or anyone else. I have my own opinions but I do not think God needs my advice. His mercy, like his love and his knowledge and his justice is infinite compared with my own.

    • Step11Recovery

      One also notes the coverage has become a celebration of multiculturalism.

      In this case rightly so. There are reliable reports of Muslim youths from a local Mosque going into the building to rescue people. If I was one so entombed I doubt that my first words would be ‘Isn’t there a Christian available? Ideally a little less brown if possible.’.

    • Anna

      Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.
      Psalm 90:12

  • Sybaseguru

    Your Grace is quite right to point out how the Tory government gets the blame. What isn’t clear to me is why the Mayor is not at the centre of the accusations – after all council housing is his remit, Building Control is his remit, and the only group to seem to come out of it well, the Fire Department is his as well, although Mr Corbyn doesn’t seem to recognise their success, preferring to blame cuts.

    • IanCad

      Agree, with the exception that the Fire Department – apart from the brave personnel fighting the inferno – will be called to account. They have no excuse for not raising the alarms about the well known hazards of exterior insulation systems. Neither do I think, will they be able to explain away the lack of the most basic fire control systems.
      The FD does have to check high occupancy buildings for safety, don’t they!!?? Someone must have signed off on a certificate of compliance.

  • Hi

    It’s a terrible tragedy and the left are politicizing this for their own game.

    • Merchantman

      Of course they are politicizing this, after all they start young at university, and it is their game . They have mostly never had a job with real responsibilities and when they get caught out in local Government; like Rochdale and numerous other cases of abuse etc they get clean away. For them it’s easy; they largely control the media.
      However that is not to say TM’s lack of people-savy makes you wince. Churchill and KGVI and Queen Mum went to East End during the Blitz; it’s the same thing. Oh Lordy! (Excuse me).

      • gunnerbear

        Err….the Kensington constituency had a Blue MP from when it was created until the election in 2017….. …from memory, K&C council was created in ’68* and has been controlled by the Blues since it was created…. * – not sure of the date, it may even be late ’50s.

        • James Bolivar DiGriz

          And again you are (deliberately?) ignoring the key point – ” No mention New Labour MP for Kensington on tower management committee” (emphasis added).

          When Corbyn was there, she was also and he was touting her as someone who would get to the bottom of the problems, with the implication that the responsible people were ‘others’ (probably baby-eating Tories) and not standing next to him.

          • gunnerbear

            As I’ve said, when it comes to the inquiry into the events at GT, I reckon there’ll be plenty o’ s***t in the bucket to cover everyone. I presume it was only for reasons of space that the Editor of the ES isn’t asking the same questions of the Blues on the management committee or the Blues who actually run the council…..

    • Dreadnaught

      Whatever; its a PR disaster for the Tories.

      • CliveM

        True, but it says something about today, that not playing to the media in the middle of this tragedy should be seen as such.

    • Sarky

      This is not time for politics but a time for sorrow and compassion.
      The blame game can start, but not yet.

    • CliveM

      Of course they are. But I’ll whisper this quietly, if the boot was on the other foot, so would the Tories.

      Politics stinks.

      • Hi

        I would be as critical of the right as I would be of the left if this was different. As you know I’m hardly a Tory mouthpiece.

        • CliveM

          I know you are and I hope you don’t think I was suggesting you are.

    • Step11Recovery

      True, but as pointed out elsewhere, claims that you shouldn’t use this disaster to make political points are effectively answered with actually, if you live in a tower block you really, really should. Loud and often.

      • Hi

        I referred to the political left, which I think is trying to make political capital out of this tragedy.

        • Step11Recovery

          I understand your point. Alas, any human tragedy will be exploited by one side or the other.

  • Dreadnaught

    I see that even the Queen and P.William have made the visit and engaged with some of the locals. Another own goal for TM and her know bugger all advisors.

    • Ivan M

      Can’t blame her. It only takes some agitprop to turn it into a soak the rich chant. Very nice of Corbyn to grab some ass while appearing serious.

      • Dreadnaught

        I’m afraid she has lost all credibility now.

        • betteroffoutofit

          I don’t like her, but entirely agree with the non-hugging approach.
          Perhaps we should remind the ‘hugger’ muggers —- Hitler appealed to the emotions of women and children too.

    • Mojo

      I feel for Theresa May because she is the one actually doing something. Yet the media and some of the population are only interested in the hug a tree mentality. I wonder how the residents feel. I know if I was in this situation, I would much rather have TM on my side than Jeremy Corbyn. I wonder if he will return to help the victims. I doubt it.

      • Dreadnaught

        Corbyn or May; May or Corbyn is not relevant. Churchill went among the rubble and dispossessed of the East End, as did KGv. Bush was vilified for not going to New Orleans after Katrina and never shook off the consequences of appearing to be unconcerned and detached from the victims. Politics like Justice,has to be seen to be being done, especially as we now live, like it or not, in a society obsessed with public image and 24hr news and social media.
        Mrs May is no doubt deeply affected by what has happened and should at least be showing the political nowse expected of someone in her position, otherwise she should step down now, before Brexit meetings begin or the streets follow McDonald’s call to take to the streets.
        ‘Let them eat cake’ [if that is the case] is just not good enough, she would do well to reflect on that; even though it was never said.

        • gunnerbear

          “and never shook off the consequences of appearing to be unconcerned and detached from the victims. Politics like Justice,has to be seen to be being done, especially as we now live, like it or not, in a society obsessed with public image and 24hr news and social media.” Yup….instant media in a post-Diana age..

      • Dominic Stockford

        Absolutely. Walk the walk, sod talking the talk.

    • gunnerbear

      I got the feeling that HM was basically just ripping the p**s out of the Prime Minister…..

  • IanCad

    Please God, comfort the survivors.
    Mrs May has not handled this well and needs to act as a leader.
    Gross criminality is involved and it is, primarily, to the Architect of Record that prosecution should be directed.
    Secondly the RIBA and the BRE must have their charitable privileges revoked. Both wretched cabals knew all about the fire hazards of rainscreen systems, and the shortcomings of rigid insulation materials.
    Thirdly, immediate steps must be taken to replace the convoluted Building Regulations with the IBC (International Building Code) Prescriptive, comprehensive and conservative, this well developed encyclopaedia of common sense needs to be adopted now.
    That’s for a start.

    • Dreadnaught

      Steady on; an extra £5k and they could have had fire-retardant foam. The product used is banned in the US for use on building over 14 stories. This is not rocket science; somebody somewhere, has had a nice little back hander, and I hope they never have another good nights sleep.

      • IanCad

        Well; There you go. Were building works in compliance with the IBC this would not have occurred.
        Neither would the Oxley Woods fiasco have happened, nor the Dartington Primary School insanity. Not to speak of the seventeen Scottish school failures.
        In none of these examples of the utmost incompetence were any architects censured by the RIBA.
        Take away their charitable status now!

        • Anton

          IBC?

          • IanCad

            A couple of posts up Anton.

          • Anton

            Thanks. And the BRE?

          • IanCad

            Building Research Establishment.

          • Alison Bailey Castellina
      • Bogbrush

        So given they spent £10m on the refurb it’s pretty obvious that they didn’t choose dodgy stuff to save £5k. 0.05% of the budget?

        More likely incompetence.

        • Dreadnaught

          Or a back-hander to take the stuff off the manufacturers hands.

          • Bogbrush

            Allegedly 😉

          • Dreadnaught

            It happens – just ask BAE or RR.

  • Rzzr

    Seems everything is weaponised by politics these days. I am sure there is blame somewhere but not necessarily at the government of the day.

  • David

    I am not one to encourage false displays of emotion but given the scale and sheer horror of this tragedy Mrs May really should have turned up and spoken to the residents. Indeed common decency demands nothing less. If The Queen can do it why not the PM ? Her advisors in the Conservative Party really are a useless lot. How did someone that clueless, in matters of basic humanity, rise to become PM of the country ? She comes over as a sincere and diligent robot !

    • Anton

      She was advised not to meet the residents by her Security people. Good advice for security but lousy for politics.

      • David

        As soon as that was said, my reaction was identical to yours. She is in her own words, “a goody two shoes” sort of person. This means she is too sensible by far. Politics does, in part and sadly nowadays, involve an element of show business. Certain forms of leadership always have. How could the Conservatives be so clueless as to make her leader ?

        • CliveM

          Truth is, lack of alternatives.

          • Merchantman

            That is the fault of CCO for not allowing anyone but a PC drone to stand as a candidate, drawn from the A list and all the rest of the Non-conservative Conservatives.

          • CliveM

            Wouldn’t disagree.

        • She was the last man standing.

      • Royinsouthwest

        If the residents became threatening the security people could have protected Mrs May and she would have earned a modicum of respect from the general public if not from the people caught up in the tragedy.

        In any case she could have over ruled her security advisers. Furthermore why should the residents pose a danger? I mentioned the Aberfan tragedy in an earlier comment. The families of the children and teachers killed there did not pose a danger to anyone.

        • Mojo

          Unfortunately society is not so respectful in this modern age. Most metropolitan cities are beds of anger and venom. Encouraged by a nasty media who always looks for political point scoring. The questions posed by journalists today were disgraceful. Not one journalist asked anything searching, meaningful or factual. They just wanted to destroy the government. But in the end it was labour councillors on the committees. It was the culture of everyone must have their say and so the residents apparently chose not to have sprinklers (not that sprinklers would have done any good on a fire ball outside the building). Then there is the green lobby who have insisted on environment before safety.

          All these questions could have been asked but all we heard all day was Theresa May should be hugging everyone. And Corbyn is the messiah. It is absolutely sickening

      • D J

        Indeed. Sadiq Khan was hit with a bottle despite security.

    • bluedog

      If only Nigel had been allowed to go to Grenfell. He could have offered the survivors a cleansing ale to celebrate Ramadan.

      • David

        LOL !

    • Dominic Stockford

      She was getting on with trying to sort the mess out, not wasting time on emoting in public. I’d rather have the mess sorted than a few people hugged by someone they already loathe.

      • Inspector General

        Damn good comment, sir!

      • Bogbrush

        You’re so out of date. About 20 years out as it happens.

        If it’s any consolation, so am I.

      • …..to give a speech and announce support for the survivors – she didn’t even have to leave Number 10 – if she wasn’t going to actually meet the people – what was the point in going? If security was an issue? She isn’t an architect – it’s not like she was going to turn up to the tower point and something and go “that there – that was the problem”. If security was that much of an issue – she should never have left Number 10 – in terms of Security and Politics that would have been the best move. Visiting the site and not speaking to people is a stupid move on both the politics and the security front.

  • MoofBongo

    Why the hell are you wittering on about Hamsters? You do know what has happened?

    What is the basic ideology behind all Tory policy? F*#! the poor. This is what happens as a result. Theresa May can’t even bear to talk to ordinary people and it shows. She should go.

    • Andrew Mitchell

      Are you really that dull, that you think May not walking amongst the people was her choice? Really? The people responsible for the PM’s security are the SAS, do you honestly think an SAS trained security advisor would allow her to walk amongst a load of people, that they have no clue who they are, a week after 3 terrorist attacked people in London with knifes? I’m an ex Royal Marine and I used to guard VIPs at the EU building in Brussels, and I can guarantee you that no head of security would ever allow their principal to walk anywhere they have zero control of, it amazes me that people like you, can’t for one second put your brain in gear before you move off with your mouth, your a part pal.

      • Hi

        Well said.

      • Anton

        Absolutely right.

        But she should have got a few people frisked and brought to her for some PR photos.

      • IanCad

        I thought we elected Theresa May as top dog – not the security services. She should have marched right up to those survivors and offered her sympathy; along with a few tears and some hugs.

        • Fubar2

          You really do not have a clue, do you?

        • Andrew Mitchell

          Did you see that yet another Muslim was zapped today carrying a knife in Westminster, so again, you think Mrs May should have ignored what her security people are saying, march right up to a crowd of people, and what if she was stabbed? Radical Islam would be jumping for joy, “we’ve just managed to stab the UK’ s prime minister! Then after this you could bet your house that the very same people having a go at her now, would be saying ” serves her right, she was told by her security people not to do this but she ignored them and marched right up to the crowd, what a stupid woman” something like that, let’s be honest here, she gets slated if she does and slated if she doesn’t.

          • IanCad

            Good God!!! What an androgynous race of gutless pansies we have become! Regimented, dependent – – lost. Wretched, abject, fearful. Liberty, initiative, honour – all subordinated to the overriding passion of fear. And no shame in those who advocate for such a regime of obedience, conformity and cowardice.
            We deserve the rule of a stronger, braver foreign power and at this rate we’re going to get it.

          • MoofBongo

            I thought we were supposed to carry on as normal, Andrew, and not let the terrorists win? Or does that only apply to the plebs?

          • IanCad

            Inherent in leadership is risk. Scared?? Don’t take the job.

        • Bogbrush

          Yeah, because that’s what we need them for, right?

          Why do you need someone to run the government who doubles as your emotional support?

          As it happens its clear that the Momentum lot have been drafted in to take control of the atmosphere. Putting May into that would not have resulted in them howling her down and the BBC wetting itself to film and report it around the clock. I’m no fan of Teresa May, never have been, but neither do I like the irresponsible, partisan stitch up that the BBC is complicit in. It will cause serious trouble which they’ll eagerly lay at her door too.

        • betteroffoutofit

          Well I’m glad she diddn’t start a hugging fest. All this is Anti-British enough.

      • MoofBongo

        Who protects the Queen and Prince William, Andrew? A couple of Beefeaters with pointy sticks, perhaps?

      • Hmmm so you are saying the PM who can be replaced should it be needed – and is really only of importance to the people in the UK – is more important than the Queen who cannot be replaced – and is important to a large chunk of the world?

    • lucysdad01

      Basic ideology, give the workers more money to spend by increasing tax allowances to £11,500 a year from the £6,400 brown left with fiscal drag.

  • Chefofsinners

    Cheer up Manuel. It wasn’t a Siberian Hamster, it was a rat. Although it probably was a Fawlty Tower.

    • betteroffoutofit

      🙂 I see that invading Snowflakes have no sense of irony – let alone the vocabulary to express it in.

  • Mojo

    Actually history shows it is the conservatives who lift the poor from poverty. It is labour who keep them poor. Why? Because labour encourage a culture of entitlement. They take away opportunity and aspiration. They rely on the stinking rich like Lilly Allen to spout for them the beauty of socialism. Look at the old Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, China under Mao, North Korea and then ask yourself if you want these virtual signalling loonies running our country. We are not perfect but we do our best. At least Mrs May is doing something. Already an inquiry under way. The arrangement of university and college building go to be made available to the homeless, food, money, clothing. Then there is counselling and help with ongoing injuries. What did Corbyn do.????

    • MoofBongo

      You do realise that Jeremy Corbyn’s not the Prime Minister, don’t you? Or not yet, anyway. Just checking.

      • Dominic Stockford

        That’s the point. For all we pay him he has no responsibility, and wanders around virtue signalling, whilst blaming everyone else. Except that he’s only ever been a local councillor and an MP, and so is as responsible as anyone else for any failings of government that may have been a cause of this.

        • MoofBongo

          He’s never been in government, but is as responsible as anyone else for failings in government. I think you’re a little confused.

          • Dominic Stockford

            He is a member of the House of Commons. I don’t see any speeches right interventions by him on the dangers of tower blocks. What is more, he was MP for the governing party for years, what is the point of all that if he did nothing with it? And he didn’t, he simply grandstanded about nuclear weapons and war.

          • MoofBongo

            That’s all he did, is it? You’ve just carried out an in-depth analysis of his entire parliamentary career, have you?

          • Inspector General

            There’s not much of a parliamentary career there. 800 defiances of the Labour whip. He’s an incongruant, is all.

          • MoofBongo

            That would be an aspect of his voting record, not a summary of his entire parliamentary career. In fact he has spoken often and at length in the House of Commons regarding the parlous state of social housing in London.

    • The left wing aims to bring everybody down to the same level which isn’t far from rock bottom except themselves of course who are in office dictating. They are usually to be found creaming off the system, giving contracts to their mates who are not always the best company for the job and at inflated rates with backhander sweeteners.

      • weejonnie✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

        The conservatives are the party of the wealthy (Labour says so)
        Therefore it is in their interest to make everyone wealthy.
        Labour is the party of the poor (says Labour)
        Therefore………

  • Roger Hudson

    Social housing used to be fairly well organised, it’s now chaotic. The old GLC built some nice estates, look for the shield on good blocks. Privatisation, buy-to-let and multiple layers of control all have ruined the system.

    • Inspector General

      Too many immigrants of no worth coming in ruined the system. Bottom line, that.

      • betteroffoutofit

        Oh … and what’s Saddy doing in the middle of all this? Saddy Khan’t Blow up all the British, is he?

    • Dreadnaught

      When local councillors were put on the pay-roll, integrity went down the plug-hole.

      • Dominic Stockford

        Yes. We have councillors here for whom their ‘service’ of the community is in fact their job. They hate anyone from outside the allowed groups (main parties) standing against them, and their decisions are based on keeping their jobs.

    • STV

      Yes, let’s ignore all the places that were built that cold, damp, dangerous hell holes tormented by gangs.
      The only thing that ‘system’ was good for was keeping people poor and miserable.

    • CliveM

      Rose tinted.

    • donadrian

      GLC or LCC?

  • Nockian

    People keep going on about sprinkler systems without understanding their purpose is not to save lives, but to minimise damage to the fabric of a building. A fire alarm in a block of flats is limited to call points and reliant on regular fire drills and responsible users.

    Recent fires have been limited to individual flats-if you had alarms sounding regularly, then people would just ignore them as happens with car /burglar alarms. These tower blocks are designed with passive fire safety in mind-yesterday was a rare occurrence that appears to have been the result of changes to the building.

    An investigation needs carrying out to find out how the fire got out of control. Then we need to learn from the investigation. If there were shortcuts taken and building regulations ignored, then that is a matter for the courts.

    I’m fed up of the national news asking people ‘how it felt’ to have their family die, lose their home, or barely escape from a raging inferno. We all have an inkling, we don’t need it dragging out in an emotional tidal wave that swallows up common sense and leaves only blind anger aimed at anyone handy-council, the wealthy home owners, the contractors, the Government, the developers …..etc. Let’s wait and see and help out those who need it in the meantime. We don’t require another ‘public inquiry’ costing millions and lasting years, a simple insurance investigation will tell us all we need to know and if the police need to be involved after that then that’s what will happen.

    • IanCad

      “— their purpose is not to save lives, but to minimise damage to the fabric of a building.”
      Absolute. Complete and utter; cobblers.
      If the Building Regulations specify thus then even more reason to replace them with the IBC (International Building Code)

      • Fubar2

        I dont think you’ll find it is. You might not like it, but what Nockian said has more than a ring of truth to it, especially where that is concerned.

        • IanCad

          No! I believe you are incorrect. The fundamental premise of the IBC is that people are more important than property.

      • Nockian

        It’s not a simple formula. It depends on the fire. Not all fires result in the sprinklers triggering, it depends on the material. The first line of defence is a smoke detector. In a modern tower block made of steel and concrete with compartmentalised fire bulkheads the fire doesn’t normally spread, so, building in a sprinkler system wouldn’t always prevent death within the individual dwelling. You can argue that it would have done so in this case, but this is highly unusual, which is why it requires investigation. The fire recommendations were for occupants to stay in their flats in the case of fire in other areas of the building- that wasn’t to get people to sacrifice themselves, it’s generally considered the safest option, particularly with the elderly, sick and the very young.

        Something went wrong at Grenfell and it caught everyone by surprise. It may well lead to massive changes such as sprinkler systems – which would be impossible to retrofit in an older block like Grenfell. It would mean likely demolition of all blocks like this and that would mean a lot of people to find homes for whilst new blocks were built. Should we do that for the sake of one block ? Or wait and see what actually caused the rapid spread of fire and then attend to that problem ?

        • IanCad

          Sprinklers are activated by heat, and, as you imply, are strictly a second line of defence. They will however, retard and even stop a blaze from enveloping an entire structure. Their use should be confined to hi-density occupancies and industrial/commercial premises.
          The “Shelter in Place” protocols only make sense when adequate passive preventative systems are installed; this seems not to be the case in Grenfell towers.
          The tragedy was not a result of negligence in the original construction – the argument that such soulless edifices should be inflicted on the less fortunate in society – is another matter. it seems quite apparent to me the fault lies in the updating of the building to conform to the current religion of global warming.

          • Nockian

            Interesting, is that why the building was clad ?

            There is a cost benefit sum to be carried on social housing. That sum means fewer housed as a result of higher costs. People will complain about the lack of social housing more than they will about the lack of sprinkler systems. The truth is that there are thousands of high rise blocks without sprinklers in which fires have been easily contained. It appears it’s the addition of the cladding which has accelerated the spread of fire and its that which needs looking at-as well as the source of the ignition.

        • Little Black Censored

          It would be a lot safer not to live in a tower at all.

          • weejonnie✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

            Yes – but think of the area that would be needed to house 120 families – in one tower block, let alone in all the tower blocks in the country.

          • Inspector General

            The men who designed them don’t…

          • Nockian

            It’s better than rough sleeping on a park bench, or watching the fall of bombs on your home in Syria.

            People pay big money to live in high rise buildings, Trump towers being a good example. It costs £40 just to look around the Shard and the Empire Estate building has queues around the block.

          • betteroffoutofit

            “Oh the games people play, though “…

        • betteroffoutofit

          Lots of exuses for fiddling while London Burns, then.

          • Nockian

            It won’t take long to discover the cause, it’s not a crashed air liner.

          • betteroffoutofit

            True. I was just thinking about that . . .

    • Dreadnaught

      An investigation needs carrying out to find out how the fire got out of control
      A fire needs a heat source, combustible material and oxygen. Hot air rises up the air-gap – fire roars.
      What more do they want to know? The bloody stuff is a fire hazard and someone made the decision to use it. It is an American product with a plant in France. In the US it would not have been permitted to be used.
      What do you want, another Chilcott costing millions and dragging on until the guilty parties have retired with their pensions in tact?

      • Nockian

        Eh ? No. Just a normal fire investigation. If it was the foam that was the problem then it needs to be removed from any other blocks. If it was discovered to have been used by those knowing it to be dangerous, then those involved need prosecuting.

        I have no idea what caused the fire, I can speculate but I don’t know. Let the experts do their work.

        • Dreadnaught

          A guy on the 4th floor said it was his fridge that exploded and set his flat on fire. Your are right though there should be a a rapid task force sent out to strip off all cladding of this kind immediately.
          What a coup it would be for a terrorist fire starter to spark of a few more infernos.

          • Step11Recovery

            What a coup it would be for a terrorist fire starter to spark of a few more infernos.

            That crossed my mind as well. A grim thought. All the more reason for swift action on the existing housing stock, if such were needed.

          • Arthur Dent

            Indeed and did the fridge exploding have anything to do with the insane decision to replace inherently safe non flammable Freon as the refrigerant with highly flammable compressed butane?

          • Nockian

            We don’t yet know how the fire got started. The cladding didn’t spontaneously combust. It may not have been an accident – one of the reasons we need forensic analysis.

            Exploding fridges-yeah right, fridges are well known for their explosive properties. It’s all that TNT and petrol wot dunnit.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Exactly.

        • IanCad

          Experts – Oh Dear!

          • Dominic Stockford

            Yes, the fire brigade. They’re rather good at working out causes of fires.

          • Nockian

            Physical Technical experts rather than the usual ones.

        • bluedog

          Absolutely. The story so far, that a fridge blew up when it’s 1am and relatively cool, and in a flat at the bottom of the building, seems highly suspicious to this writer. The fire risks of this cladding should be well known after the uncontrolled Dubai fire and a smaller controlled blaze in the same material in Melbourne, Australia. A well informed arsonist could easily exploit the vulnerability. As yet, no claim of responsibility from IS.

          • Nockian

            Or somebody unhappy with their current housing decided to burn their flat in order to get moved. The papers are chock full of examples of housing authority tenants that burned down their homes in order to get moved.

            It’s that ‘fridge blew up’ that gets me. I look around my own kitchen and the only thing that is left running, unattended is the fridge. Everything else has to be physically switched on and off, hence being the responsibility of the person using the equipment. It’s like ‘the dog ate my homework’ has to be something over which you have little/no control. It’s also an item of equipment that someone with no technical knowledge would pick. All these flats will have RCD disconnection with 30/100mA trip and fast acting circuit breakers-a minor fault would trip them never mind an exploding fridge. There is insufficient electrical energy, the fridge gases are inert.

            The insulation is a different story. If it was understood there was a risk of flammability you would have thought those responsible would have been aware. It could mean a contractor cutting corners, or a genuine mistake.

            Anyway, that’s just conjecture. I have a sceptical mind. Fridges don’t just blow up and set fire to entire tower blocks and competent designers don’t go cladding buildings in flammable materials.

          • Nockian

            Seems I’m talking rubbish. Fridge/Freezers are a prolific source of fires. So this looks likely to be an accident. That reduces the problem to that of the reason for the rapid spread of fire.

  • Inspector General

    Red evil in the air, chaps!

    Having listened to Radio 5 this morning, one would expect the Metropolitan Police to be on riot standby. Yes, really. A riot could easily break out now this tragedy has been hijacked by Red agitators. This is a chance to ‘bring the Tory Government down’ and it’s not going to be passed up easily.

    If the Inspector was resident in the wealthier part of Kensington, he would feel on edge of late. Apparently, when compared to the greater population of this tower block, which appears to this simple man as a luxury immigrant hostel, having quite a bit of money added to the temerity of wanting to live in the centre of London and not need to draw on housing benefit would make him an uber person. His very opulent existence an insult to the empowered immigrant or individual of immigrant stock whose whipped up sense of entitlement knows no bounds on this earth.

    • weejonnie✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

      Yep – well forecasted – and I expect it to spread. The only good is that the SWP banners will be seen on TV and some will realise what Corbyn’s plan for the UK – mob rule would mean.

    • bluedog

      Circle the limousines and take the wives, mistresses and children into the centre.

  • Step11Recovery

    I fear Your Grace may have misjudged this one.

    The perception is that the Tories have been trying to provide public services on the cheap. The hideous transformation of a tower block, that appears to have been coated with napalm rather than a fire-resistant alternative because it saved a few quid, transformed into a hecatomb is going to take some explaining.

    And the sight of firefighters running into that furnace rather than way from it render claims that that the public sector is populated exclusively by overpaid jobsworths both absurd and plain disgusting.

  • Shadrach Fire

    Your Grace,
    My son has a cladding company and the company that did this tower is a competitor of his.
    Without wishing to disparage them he does say that cladding companies are generally told what to do in the specification. A problem is that the climate change brigade demand the highest level of carbon gas reducing insulation and the government demands it at the lowest cost. There are however, as you have referred to, standards that should be adhered to.
    My son tells me that there are various types of cladding, This one was Celotex, a type of foam, that gives the best size/insulation ratio but is flammable and should not be used in tall blocks like this. Added to this, the rainwater cladding is usually solid aluminium which would not burn. He believes however that a cladding formed from an aluminium veneer over a plastic card was used. This of course would also be flammable. Despite these poor choices a fire break should have inserted at every floor so that fire would not jump to the next floor.

    His company on occasions has had to use Celotex on some low rise properties but they would never uses it with the flammable cladding even if specified. Wherever they can, they use Rockwool for the insulation as it is totally non flammable. For the same thickness it is not so efficient an insulator as Celotex and is slightly dearer, but what price can be put on life?

    My son also told me that because of the differences of opinion in the industry and the lack of definitive regulations in the ‘Building Regulations’ he does not expect anyone to fall on their sword over this.

    Greed and political notions prevail again.

    • Chefofsinners

      Interesting stuff. Ever thought of switching your name to Shadrach Sprinkler System?

      • Dreadnaught

        Nice one Chef, a welcome bit of light relief.

        • Chefofsinners

          When somebody said ‘fire retardant’ I thought they were getting rid of Jeremy Corbyn.

      • Shadrach Fire

        Very funny.

    • IanCad

      Good info Shad; and a post that should deflect the heat visited on the contractor to where it truly belongs – the architect/specifier.
      A small point as regards the firestopping in the rainscreen cavity – an intumescent (expands in presence of fire) seal is quite common. To my way of thinking this is absurd. It’s OK if it catches fire – the sealant will expand and stop it after the fire has started – utter madness.

    • Mike Stallard

      OK. Point well made and taken.
      When the concrete blocks were put up they were perfectly insulated against fire spreading upwards: concrete does not burst into flames.
      Why was the cladding ordered in the first place? Global Warmists must take their share of the blame. this seems very much like another of their very costly and dangerous assumptions turning toxic.

      • gunnerbear

        There are reports that K&C ordered the cladding to improve the look of the block to boost the attractiveness of the the area to developers…..probably a bit o’ both to be honest….flashy looking ‘nice panels’ that please the K&C leadership whilst also acting as insulation….

    • David

      Useful information !

    • Ray Spring

      My view is that these retrofits should be carefully specified with approved and tested materials. The best test of course, is to try and burn the building down. After having been upgraded to the latest standards, burn the place down. These tower blocks are 40 years old. We can afford to burn several down!

  • Dominic Stockford

    Those criticising T May for following her security advice may like to note the attempts made to attack her this evening, as a momentum inspired mob did their best to lay violent hands on her. Thank God for security men, and their wise advice. Note also the attempts to storm Kensington town hall, also clearly with the probability of violence and destruction had they succeeded. We are being dragged into third world style violence every time anything goes wrong. The stoicism that accompanied the sufferings of the blitz, worse by far than the tragic events of this week, incomparably so, is replaced by yelling, screaming, accusing and blaming. A result, I say with confidence, of the loss of faith in Jesus Christ that has swept the nation.

    • Dreadnaught

      If she had gone earlier after the event people were still in shock: anger comes when the shock subsides.

      • Inspector General

        Give the woman a break, Dredders. Women are not natural leaders. They tend to rely on advice, as unfortunately she did.

        • Dreadnaught

          She’s on TV right now and cant say who is taking charge of the situation in the ground. A quick call to the MoD could have had a team of army officers organising a deployment of personnel to assist in the emergency and at least show that something is being done just like they have done in the past in flood situations. A semblance of order would have been set down, and people would have at least someone physically to relate to.
          Where is the bloody council or even the councillors for that constituency. This is not their finest hour.

          • bluedog

            Not a job for the military. The civilian authorities have the resources in all regards.

          • Inspector General

            Good shout, Bluedog. It is however prudent to remind the Reds the military are just around the corner…no more needs to be said, what!

          • bluedog

            One awaits the arrival of reinforcements from Barchester, with Mrs Proudie mounted at their head.

          • Dreadnaught

            Where are they? – that’s just my point

          • Dominic Stockford

            The councillors for that ward are Labour, maybe someone has suggested they say and do nothing?

    • Anna

      I agree, besides I see no point in half the government turning up at the site to offer their sympathies. The frivolous MSM seems to think that such meaningless, hypocritical gestures are more important than concrete action.

      The royal family, of course, ought to visit and ‘weep with those who weep’ since there is not a lot more they can do in a situation like this. Of course if they really mean to help, they might offer bits of their vast tracts of land for building homes.

      • betteroffoutofit

        Problem with that business of building more homes in beautiful green areas . . . There’s not much green left in this once pleasant land. We’re about to sink under all the vile, ugly, filthy post-modern piles.

        • Well then we had better start properly controlling immigration hadn’t we!

          • betteroffoutofit

            Yes’m!

    • betteroffoutofit

      It’s also incredibly childish.

      Furthermore – what a coincidence – It realises the 3rd element of the Communist System for Destroying the West* – that is “Crisis.” It’s been brought about by generations of Demoralization (destruction of Christianity) and Destabilization (Divide and Conquer).

      They’re trying their hand at the final step: ‘Normalization’ – with the armed police etc, Maybe they’re soon going to claim that we can’t Brexit because we need access to the Army of the euSSR: for Defence of ……… errr …… what? Houses of Guff-Talking?

      _______________
      *see Yuri Bezmenov

    • gunnerbear
      • Dominic Stockford

        And the Housing management committee, a majority of those on it were tenants, disagreed.

        • gunnerbear

          DS, As I’ve said, given the reports in the Press from all viewpoints, I reckon the ‘S**t-Storm o’ Blame’ is going to reach gigantic proportions…. …so yep, I wouldn’t be surprised if every one who ever sat on the management committee is going to get coated….

  • Mike Stallard

    Please would someone explain exactly why the safe concrete tower blocks were coated in lethal plastic insulation and incendiary metal? Could it have anything to do with Global Warming…

    • Royinsouthwest

      There have been claims that the cladding was chosen for aesthetic reasons so that wealthier inhabitants of the area would not have to look at an eyesore. However I have no idea whether that is true or not.

      • weejonnie✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

        No – it was chosen for insulation reasons. Unfortunately because it appears to have been inflammable under extreme heat, it caught fire and this meant that the fire was able to leap from apartment to apartment. Flats are self-contained units, highly resistant to a fire in one jumping quickly to another. This is why residents are recommended to stay put in the event of a fire – the fire will spread so slowly that the fire brigade will have time to arrive and put it out – and not be hampered by having to fight against a stream of people rushing downstairs to get there. The cladding short-circuited the spread of the fire.

        • Mike Stallard

          “Did Theresa May conspire with Boris one night to cram it with old sofas and stained mattresses so the stinking poor refugees they despise so much could grow fat going up and down 21 floors in a lift so they’d die sooner and decrease the surplus immigrant population?”

          And why did it need insulation please?

          I would like to add that in rather hotter climes, Singapore, Hong Kong, plastic padding is not put on buildings and fires like this do not happen.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            Well it happens in Dubai which is probably hotter that Singapore or HK.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/02/dramatic-scenes-fire-engulfs-skyscraper-downtown-dubai/

          • Mike Stallard

            Yup – you are right. But Singapore and Hong Kong are still unpadded, I think.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            So according to you, cladding is not used in hot climates but when I show that it is, you just repeat your (unsubstantiated) claim that it is not used in two very, very small places.

            If you have a point to make then please make it.

            And none of the materials involved are plastic nor are they padding. Perhaps before posting again you might do some research and understand what is being talked about.

          • Mike Stallard

            Muchisimas gracias. Vivio in Singapura hace dos anos. Y tu?

      • David

        Ah yes, the cult of modernity, and looking … “new” and “modern” !

    • David

      HM Government, having signed up to drastically reduce energy consumption strongly encourages the use of less energy….
      Yes one of the big pushes for energy saving is, our old friend, the theory of – woops, silly me, the fact of – anthropogenic global warming.

  • literate3

    REAL saints can resurrect hamsters (sometimes when HE decides to accede to that prayer).

    • Chefofsinners

      Sorry to break this to you, but your mum bought another one that looked the same.

      • literate3

        Either you have posted your comment to the wrong website or you are insane – either way your comment is totally irrelevant.

        • Chefofsinners

          Okay. Sorry, I was wrong. Fluffy really did come alive again. Both times.

          • Linus

            Now I’ve heard it all.

            Christians crucify their hamsters in order to test the resurrecting powers of their lord.

            While one should perhaps applaud such a scientific approach to faith via the testing and attempted validation of its claims, surely there can be no excuse for torturing rodents as part of the process.

            Even the cosmetics industry doesn’t test its products on animals any more. Why should religions be allowed to?

            Time to contact the RSPCA. With a bit of luck, a blanket ban on the keeping of hamsters and all other rodents by Christians will be in place by Winter Solstice.

            If you want to test your god, use yourself as the guinea pig. Leave the poor hamsters alone.

          • Chefofsinners

            I only used the hamster as a guinea pig because I suspected it of being a mole.
            I must say that the length of your comments is helping me to believe in eternal life.

  • Anna

    Too shocked even to pray for the poor victims, though I am grieving for them. The photos of the building in flames with so many souls trapped inside- fearful and screaming- looked surreal, vaguely reminiscent of images from movies about the end of the world. It is as if the time foretold in Revelations 8 or Joel 2:30 is already upon us. Sad and very, very frightening.

    Sad- especially because it is not so much a failure on the part of the politicians, as of the the church. Christian leaders have failed to fulfil their role as a watchmen, calling people to repentance and warning them of impending judgment. My sister wrote to Justin Welby, exhorting him to use his influence to call together Christians to prayer, to speak against gay marriage in the Church of Scotland, and to gently warn him against praying with Muslim imams (“would Elijah do that?”). I pray that all of us will wake up and call upon God, and may God forgive us for the times when we have been complacent.

  • bobsworth

    Have some fucking dignity mate.

    Take it on the chin and stop whining like a little girl.

    When 70 – possibly 100 – people have died in a fire whose consequences were largely avoidable by just spending a bit more money……

    ….. you’ll forgive us for not giving a fucking toss about the hurt feelings of the Tory party.

    • Inspector General

      Whose money? The piss poor residents? Ah, you mean tax payers money. Of course, that would be it. Don’t look for economy, just go ahead as if you were improving your own property…

    • forgotten_man

      While the issue of the cladding is real enough …so is the little matter of the blocked stairwells.

      Who’s fault was that?

      or is the answer going to be some vague whataboutery?

  • Kenneth

    It’s the BBC that has sickened me the most turning the tragedy into “political opportunity”. I can just imaging the stick it would have given the Conservatives if they had used this situation politically as the Labour Party have done.

    I am not a fan of the “great and the good” suddenly turning up with their entourage amongst shocked and grieving people.

    I would have done the same as Mrs May and left them alone.

    • Dominic Stockford

      And visited those in hospital, as she did.

  • People are complaining about being accommodated in hotels. Or, is it that the BBC are seeking out those with grievances? Now’s there’s talk of riots and requisitioning “empty” luxury properties if everyone isn’t rehoused in 3 weeks in properties close to Grenfell Tower.

    • Inspector General

      Riot threats from the eternally grateful for having been taken into this country, would you say, Jack.

      This country has, we are repeatedly brow beaten into accepting, a long tradition of welcoming the ‘refugee’ and it seems the economic migrant / illegal immigrant / criminal on the run / wanted terrorist / chancer / ‘student’. Call him what you like. He settles here, then we creep around softly apologising for being us. To wit, white and not badly off. And we hope he won’t hop up and down in rage over it. It’s damn well not good enough! Send these people back to where they came from. Enforce the immigration laws. It’s what they’re there for! We are not welfare international for anyone who can make it to these shores with their open hand outstretched.

      • Linus

        Maybe they should send you back where you came from.

        Is there anything worse than an immigrant from a dirt poor country complaining about immigrants from other dirt poor countries? Does a Muslim from Pakistan have any less right to be in the UK than a Catholic from some unknown Irish bog?

        • Goodness! Are you French by any chance?

          • Linus

            The odd thing is that the Inspector is Irish, but desperately wants to be thought of as British. Why? What possible reason could an Irishman, whose country was raped by Britain for hundreds of years, have for wanting to be British?

            Is it Stockholm syndrome? Has the Inspector fallen in love with his oppressors?

          • Ray Spring

            Yes Linus. Declaration of your Nationality is sought.
            The English, The English, The English are best. I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.

          • betteroffoutofit

            And dont’ forget – that some of ’em eat garlic in bed!
            Also: if it weren’t for us, they’d all be Spanish!

            Dear, dear, Flanders and Swann!!! Now how come we aren’t making any more originals like them?

          • Ray Spring

            I suspect that Flanders, or Swann, or both, would be reported to the Race Relations people. With an ‘unofficial,’ but total ban on their work. Poverty and the Workhouse to follow.

          • Jack’s lineage is Irish-Jewish.

        • Inspector General

          You don’t understand, quare fellow. The Inspector has BOUGHT into Britishness. It is a noble thing to aspire to. Pity his fellow immigrants seem to want to live by their own unpleasant cultural baggage so brought in.

          • Linus

            You can’t “buy” into a culture that is not your own. All you can do is ape the habits and mannerisms of the English and pretend to be one of them. They know the difference though. And they’ll always regard you as an outsider.

            I saw a lot of that at school and then at university. Foreign boys desperately trying to fit in by playacting a hackneyed, cinematic idea of Britishness. The Irish were particularly bad at it. Sebastian Flyte with a broad Kerry accent is a contradiction in terms.

            Whatever else you may be, you are not and never will be British. To the English in particular, you’re just another Johnny Foreigner to look down on.

            Face it, your fantasy of being British is all in your own head. In reality you’re nothing more than a minority-hating member of a minority. There were people like you in Poland during the German occupation. They strutted about pretending to be more German than the Germans, while the real Germans looked down on them as little better than subhuman. Tame subhumans who would do their bidding and help them eliminate all the other subhumans. They “bought in” to Germanness. Did it save them?

          • bluedog

            Rubbish. The Irish are family. May be not in your own privileged enclave, but elsewhere assuredly so.

          • Linus

            I have nothing against the Irish. My mother’s family wasn’t overly enamoured of them however.

            My grandmother felt they lowered the tone, but as long as they didn’t venture past the narthex at Mass, even she didn’t object to the priest welcoming them into church.

            She softened in old age. By the time of her death they’d crept forward into the nave as far as the third bay. This was considered quite liberal by the standards of the day. A real social apartheid operated. There were old Catholic families, the retainers of old Catholic families, the odd Continental refugee (not me – I counted as family) and then the Irish.

            I understand the feelings of exclusion and anger this must have generated. Indeed I can even sympathise, having felt something similar as a gay man. What I don’t understand is how it can all turn inwards and be transformed into a rejection of one’s true identity and a desperate attempt to masquerade as something that one just is not. I find it sad. Uncle Tom is the most wretched of literary characters.

          • Chefofsinners

            You “don’t understand is how it can all turn inwards and be transformed into a rejection of one’s true identity and a desperate attempt to masquerade as something that one just is not.”
            Really? As a man who wants to insert semen into other men, you don’t understand?
            Surely the Inspector is free to self-identify as English and must be allowed into our toilets?

          • alecto

            Bitter much?

          • Inspector General

            Father’s mother’s maiden name was an English one. Does that help?

          • Linus

            My mother was English. I speak English without the slightest trace of a French accent. I went to school and university in England. Drop me into any marquee at any society wedding in Great Britain and I can bray with the best of them. Does that make me British?

            It certainly does not. National identity is formed in childhood. What you learn as a child becomes part of who you are. Identities acquired in adulthood are superficial. They’re what you want to be, not what you are.

            Whatever your grandmother may have been, you are an Irishman. Just as I am a Frenchman. A Frenchman who can pass as British when he wants to, but a Frenchman nonetheless.

            What I don’t understand is why you want to be anything other than what you are. To quote one of the few British writers worth reading: “If you were sensible of your own good, you would not wish to quit the sphere in which you have been brought up.”

          • Inspector General

            You’re quite entitled to identify as a Frenchman. As for why anyone would want to be that closely associated with a country that handed the keys in in 1940 is the question…

          • Linus

            That’s my point entirely. It isn’t about what I want. It’s about what I am.

            For you it’s clearly all about your dreams and fantasies. Reality is too bleak for you to handle. Don’t like being a downmarket Irishman? Reinvent yourself as a Brit. Don’t like the cold hard reality of the world as we know it? Invent a sky pixie to make it all better.

            No matter how many tall tales you tell, what’s real is real. And you know it. You might be able to take the boy out of the bog, but you’ll never take the bog out of the boy.

          • “I went to school and university in England.”

            NO! British taxpayers deserve a refund – with interest. .

          • Anna055

            Nonsense.

      • Human grief and tragedy being exploited by anarchists and communists, more like, Inspector. It’s always been that way. The poor are always manipulated into becoming the vanguard of revolution – even “religious” revolutions – by those with something to gain from undermining the status quo.

        • Royinsouthwest

          One of those religious revolutions that attracted the poor was Christianity in the time of the Apostles.

          • Indeed, but it never sought to overthrow Rome by protests, demonstrations or violence.

          • History_Lady

            What many people are unaware of is that before Christianity, many of the lower classes and soldiery of the Roman Empire and the Hellenistic world were attracted to Judaism. Not for any revolutionary fervious, but because, according to some historians it seemed to represent a credible alternative to the licentiousness and immorality of the Roman Elite.

    • Royinsouthwest

      Obviously the survivors deserve sympathy and help but perhaps the shock of what happened has affected their judgment. After such a tragedy a stay in a clean and reasonably comfortable hotel should not be a cause of complaint unless, possibly, it results in families being split up. Even that, though undesirable, should be tolerable in the short term.

      As for being rehoused close to the Tower I would have thought that some people would be glad not to have to look at it everyday. Since a lot of the residents appear to be foreign looking, unless most of them were born here they would have travelled a long way to get to this country. Why then make a fuss of a small journey now, probably within London?

      • Regardless of culture, race or background, the stages of grief:
        – Denial;
        Anger;
        – Bargaining;
        – Depression; and
        – Acceptance.

  • Inspector General

    One observes on the BBC news that protesters are covering their faces. Just as they probably did when making a damn nuisance of themselves in ‘the old country’. Why we take these bastards in quite defeats reason…

    • Dreadnaught

      Hey there’s an Al Quds march on Sunday where there will be plenty of Hesbollah flags and calls for death to Israel and the US. Hate by the bucketful. Saddo Kahn has been petitioned to cancel it but won’t do so, even after Manchester and Borough Market. It will be packed with socialist shirker supporters and the anarchists. Watch out for that for bile and nastiness.

      • Inspector General

        Bloody marvellous…

      • Pubcrawler

        Trooping the Colour on Saturday, too. Could be a fun weekend in the Metropolis…

      • History_Lady

        Various commentators have reported that people were heard blaming Jews for the Grenfell disaster at said march. In past years, said march is said to have been frequented by one Mr J. Corbyn.

    • History_Lady

      Various commentators have reported that people were heard blaming Jews for the Grenfell disaster at said march.

  • bluedog

    Will this be the trigger for a massive summer of discontent? As the ummah realise the extent of the risks they face by being herded into flammable tower blocks across the favellas of Europe, will they revolt en masse?

    • Chefofsinners

      They are already revolting.

      • Pubcrawler

        It is, interestingly (to me at least) 636 years plus a day or two ago (depending on when you are reading this) that Richard II rode out to meet the revolting peasants at Smithfield. Who in government today would do the same?

        • Chefofsinners

          Wat timing.

      • bluedog

        Lock the shopping malls. Erect the barricades and don’t let them south of the Park.

  • forgotten_man

    The bit that got me was all this ‘well jeremy came down , he cares! where is May?’ narrative.

    Well, first, as tragic as this is, she has a bloody country to run.

    second, the whole point of being in charge is that you get lots of other people who are rather better at disasters than you to do their ‘thing’ so lots more people get assistance quickly…so they can have enough time to do photo opportunities with corby…since he hasn’t anything else to do..

    • Dominic Stockford

      May went to the hospital to visit the injured, didn’t see corbyn there.

  • malcolm scott

    these eye sores were built in the 1970’s under labour governments.a social experiment now being dismantled.we have one of these hideous buildings in our village,bang in the middle of the high street.
    the question that must be asked by sensible people is if the corbinistas had won these people would be running our country now.

  • Tethys

    Report in today’s press: (not in chronological order) and if correct…

    * Inferior Cladding of this type banned in Germany
    * £5000 saved on cladding in Grenfell upgrade
    * £15,000 donated to Tory party by linked individual.
    * 20 – 100 dead

    • Ivan M

      If they cannot tell if there were 20 or 100 dead what does it tell you about the people living there. Largely undocumented? How is the poll tax or census conducted?

      • Tethys

        The bracketing is mine.
        But your comment tells me the real issue in some people’s minds

        • Ivan M

          The real issue is that no one. Not you not Co

          • Tethys

            Is immigration all you see here?

          • Ivan M

            It is (the some) tenants who do not prioritise safety that I see. Having lived most of my life in flats I can tell you that there is a fair number of recalcitrants who care nothing for the safety of others.

          • Tethys

            Collective suicide then?
            I should have realised.

          • Ivan M

            No, neighbours from hell. If ten households piled up furniture blocking the passages, the rest pay for it.

          • Tethys

            Don’t you ever come live next door to me.

      • Paul Greenwood

        Who was home ? Do they sign in at night and have a concierge at the front door check they are alright ? This is Grenfell Tower not Trump Tower

      • Tethys

        It tells you that recovery is difficult.

    • Paul Greenwood

      Germany has other problems as fire service makes clear. Cladding is a disaster even in Germany and the Plattenbau have been tarted up but are death traps still

  • Ivan M

    Having low IQ third world buggers as neighbours in a flat is a fire hazard all by itself. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OSmUJC3bWMk

    • bluedog

      Not so much a fire hazard as a water hazard in situations where a sprinkler system is installed. Every time the fat burns on the cooker, setting off the system and probably dousing the entire floor, the entire floor below is also likely to become uninhabitable as 3ater seeps through the supposedly impermeable concrete floor. No wonder the authorities are hesitant about installing the systems in social housing.

  • bluedog

    Your Grace, it’s easy to be consumed by the detail of the fire when there are some very interesting macro implications to consider.

    If the Dubai blaze was the first shoe to drop, Grenfell is the second, and one suspects the lights are burning light in EC2 and SW1 as the implications are digested. Where aluminium clad buildings are public owned, the loss and the risk are socialised. But where the gleaming towers are privately owned, the questions of insurance and finance elbow their way to the front. What insurer will now feel that the premiums should not be jacked up against the day when the ecologically sound architectural triumph self-immolates, taking hundreds of bankers and execs to their deaths? What bank will now pride itself on the quality of its commercial and residential lending book knowing that a lightning strike, a welding torch or a poorly handled angle-grinder could cause catastrophe to the underlying assets? Any building with aluminium cladding has just taken an unquantified valuation hit, so that the loan-valuation ratio is in all probability sharply negative. In short, we may be looking at the catalyst of the next banking crisis.

    Then there are the social implications of the demographic that seems most affected by the calamity, Muslim immigrants. Will HM Queen with her PM at her side lead the mourners in a memorial service at the Central Mosque in Regents Park? Or will Sadiq be delegated to turn them away and appoint himself as their representative? No more idle talk about rubbing their noses in diversity, this matter could become a direct threat to the authority of the institutions of the British state.

    • Ivan M

      Aren’t the Muslims supposed to bury their dead within a day? Their leftist friends will try to milk it but it will be stale news in a week.

      • bluedog

        There will be very little to bury. Hence the need for a memorial service.

        • Ivan M

          Well another bloody bash the. Tories fest to look forward to then.

    • Paul Greenwood

      What about Roubaix ? Mermox Tower 2012

  • GemmaL

    I don’t like May very much but the way they’re scapegoating her and attacking her is sickening – she is the PM not a builder or architect and didn’t have anything to do with covering Grenfell in flammable plastic.

    Using this tragedy as a way to try and undermine the democratically elected government is sick and I hope people can see it for what it is. Playing politics with people’s lives and deaths.

    • Ivan M

      Leftists hounds are smelling blood. May just has to ride this out for a week or two. The news cycle will take of it.

    • The MSM decided that May should not have won the election on the 8th and have been out for blood ever since. I’m no fan of May either, and I don’t think she’s helped herself, but the bias has been astonishing; May can do no right, Corbyn can do no wrong. If May had had her photo taken cuddling the residents as Corbyn did, she would have been torn apart for turning a disaster into a photo op.

      • Dominic Stockford

        Exactly so. May can do no right, Corbyn can do no wrong even if they do the same thing….

      • artwest

        I can’t bear the woman either but it seems that the media have stopped all pretense of being anything other than an activist mob..
        The effect is especially noticeable with the BBC which used to at least make an effort (however implausible) to hide its biases. Since the EU referendum, Trump, the Brexit negotiations and now this it has gone rabidly and nakedly out of control.

        • The BBC News website is horrendous, and Sky News has a whole section dedicated to Trump; rabid is an excellent description. Even scarier is the amount of people who just gobble it all up without even thinking and just mindlessly repeat the last headline they read.

      • History_Lady

        Agee with you and Artwest. I don’t like either of the major parties. What I find revealing, if not a little frightening is how some people are measuring politcal figures compassion and devotion to the public by said pictures of cuddling residents, or older pictures featuring smiling kiddies.
        I am almost reminded of the pictures of Hilter embracing smiling children and feeding cute little deer.

        • I don’t think we’ve learned anything at all. People complained that Blair was all style over substance, yet they’re falling all over the first vaguely charismatic leader who comes along. The Hitler analogy isn’t that far fetched -a country in turmoil, economic difficulties, a leader who promises the earth…. Scary times.

    • MoofBongo

      “Playing politics with people’s lives and deaths.” But that’s what politics is about, old thing.

      • GemmaL

        Politics is about making cheap shots about dead kids now?

        • MoofBongo

          That’s not what I meant. I meant politics *is* about people’s lives and deaths.

          • Tadcaster Tory

            That’s exactly what you meant, Mr. Momentum. To you, this is all a game. Presumably far left politics fills a whole in your otherwise pointless existence. Have you considered finding a partner? Might give you something less sad to do.

          • MoofBongo

            It’s obvious what I meant if you read it properly, but judging by your grammar, you’re illiterate. “Fill a whole” indeed!

      • Odo Saunders

        You are surely referring to that odious clapped out music hall star Jeremy Corbyn!

    • John C

      many people do see.

  • Linus

    Now even the queen is in on the plot to get rid of her PM.

    While the Maybot does her best to avoid all contact with the aggrieved survivors of Grenfell Tower and their outraged neighbours, Queenie plunges headlong into the crowd to commiserate and emote like never before in her thousand year reign.

    Move over Corbyn and his unBritish American-style hugs. A slight misting-over of the rheumy royal eyeballs beneath a jaunty blue hat was all that was needed to administer the coup de grâce to this clueless android of a Tory PM.

    Did she come equipped with phial of freshly-sliced onion gas in her clunky Launer bag? Did she have a quick snort before facing the cameras with just the right hint of quivering red-eye? We’ll never know. Perhaps her shock and grief were genuine (well, as genuine as they can be for a Lizard). But genuine or not, the contrast between royal sympathy and prime ministerial indifference, compounded by that train-wreck of a TV interview, has signed this government’s death warrant.

    And who says the British monarch enjoys no power?

    • Ivan M

      The tyranny of the cry-babies have to be stopped before menstrual onrushes drown us all in a flood of sickly viscous fluids.

      • MoofBongo

        I am certain after thinking this through, that you’re an idiot.

        • Ivan M

          That’s you right. But be careful about letting lachrymose tendencies get ahold of public opinion. One day you may be in the dock besieged by crybabies backed not so subtly by a leftist rabble given to violence.

          • MoofBongo

            You’re babbling.

        • John C

          you are the expert, idiot

    • Paul Greenwood

      Neither Queenie nor Corbyn have any Executive Authority…….but Corbyn could ask Blair and his buffoon Prescott why they implemented such a stupid policy as cladding, or even combo boilers in domestic residences…….Prescott and his stupid green politics

    • It’s the proper role of the Head of State to share people’s grief and, yes, emote. The Prime Minister’s function is to govern the nation.

      • John C

        do not confuse idiots by spouting good sense

  • Ivan M

    I am certain after thinking this through that more than the cladding, it is unsafe practices in certain households in the block that caused the fire to get out of hand. If any of them are left alive they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    • MoofBongo

      Blame the victims, eh? Standard Tory fare. And your evidence for this is? Still, it’s good that you’re around. All the millions of pounds of public money that would otherwise be spent on an enquiry can be saved.

      • Ivan M

        Do you not understand that @ £70,000 per household was spent was on refurbishing the building? That would be two years or more of the yearly average income. There was no question about skimping on funds. Therefore all this talk of leaving the poor to die is just lies.

        • MoofBongo

          £5,000 extra for the fire proof cladding?

          • Ivan M

            Hindsight is 20/20. If it were up to me I will just paint the building over. How much would that have cost? One to two million pounds? But for reasons having to do with the location of the building over eight millions were spent. Do you think 5,000 pounds mean anything in the scheme of things?

          • MoofBongo

            If it didn’t, wouldn’t you spend it on the fireproof option?

          • Ivan M

            How do you know that the specifics had to do with fireproofing? I have not noticed you bringing up this matter before. Face it there are many things we do not know until it happens.

          • Paul Greenwood

            not “fireproofing”…….fire-retardant

          • Ivan M

            Yes, fire retardant.

          • Paul Greenwood

            No. I would not put exterior cladding on any building. Only glass mineral wool is fire-proof. These polystyrene blocks burn……the difference is how fast……the building was designed in 1974 for people to survive 60 mins and await rescue…….by being Green…..this cladding reduced that 60 mins to 3-4 mins……..these is no fire-proof cladding using polyethylene or polystyrene

          • Paul Greenwood

            there was no fire-PROOF option

          • MoofBongo

            Fire retardant, apologies.

          • Paul Greenwood

            It is NOT FirePROOF

        • Paul Greenwood

          You can waste £75,000 per flat with ease and just did

          • Ivan M

            One of the minor ironies here is that having spent all this money, there is are no benefits. If someone gave me the option of taking 70,000 and leaving the building as it is, I know what I will choose.

      • whs1954

        Why don’t you try reading the article and seeing that it does not blame the victims? But you have already latched onto “blame the Tories” as the easy answer.

        • MoofBongo

          Why don’t you try understanding how comments work? It’s not a comment on the article.

      • John C

        spittle-flecked troll

        • MoofBongo

          Where?

          • John C

            In all of your unhinged posts, troll.
            Blocked.

          • MoofBongo

            Me so sad

    • Paul Greenwood

      It is an abuse of Public Funds that flammable materials were ever permitted to be manufactured for this purpose. Online there is research which states there is NO EU Standard on this matter and when tests were run in Croatia the only Standard was a British Standard since no other standards existed inside Europe.

      Somewhere, there has been a serious failure. As the Architectural Correspondent of Grauniad explained on radio – this tower was built with fire-safety in mind. It was SAFE until Green Politics demanded exterior thermal insulation which undermined the integrity of the building by creating a flammable covering with chimney to incinerate the structure. With such a flammable skin sprinklers were useless

      • Ivan M

        So Greenies and not Tories are to blame then. Bongo man are the issues clearer now?

        I certainly cannot understand how a new untried material can be approved by the normally conservative civil engineering authorities.

    • Paul Greenwood

      http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/162104/article/2017-05-13/les-plaies-de-la-tour-mermoz-ne-sont-pas-refermees-cinq-ans-apres-l-incendie

      http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/ungluecke/feuerwehr-chef-reinhard-ries-zu-dem-brand-in-london-15061296.html

      Dazu gehört, dass ab bestimmter Gebäudehöhe (ich meine, es sind 22 Meter) besondere Pumpen in die Steigleitungen eingebaut sein müssen, um der Feuerwehr Wasser auch in oberen Stockwerken zu geben – die Schwimmbäder in den Dachgeschossen unserer Bankentürme sind ein Ergebnis davon.

  • Paul Greenwood

    Before they get too excited about Germany banning flammable materials consider the Dusseldorf Airport Fire where polystyrene melted……….

    http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/dussairportfire.html

  • Dreadnaught

    If this 2016 report can be found by someone such as myself in a few clicks of the keyboard then the is no excuse for anyone responsible for commissioning work or supplying the service not to have been appraised of the facts.

    Fire Risks From External Cladding Panels – A Perspective
    From The UK
    1. Introduction
    2. What are the risks?
    The mechanisms of external fire spread
    3. Fire History in the UK
    Development of composite panels
    Fires in composite panels
    Fires in external claddinghttp://www.eurodefence.com/FireRisksFromExternalCladdingstudy.pdf

    • M Mack

      Firstly, it is most likely that the Cladding was a MAJOR contributor to the spread of the

      fire, and seems glaringly obvious to me. However, the inquiry will take some time to complete, and I think that interim safety work needs to be done on all existing building that use the same technology.

      Re your link: Sorry about this. If you check the dates inside the file you can see the date section for this document.

      2017-06-14T15:51:15+07:00
      2017-06-14T15:51:15+07:00

      So this document was created on the 14th June 2017 It is a copy of course.

      Anyway. A google search on the title of the document brings up the original. Written in Winter 2016 after the completion of the Cladding at Grenfall.

      http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/winter-2016-issue/

      Your claims of using this report whist cladding the building are redundant, as when this report was published the work was completed. According to Rydon, the work was carried out in the Summer of 2016. Another case of hindsight engineering ?

      • Dreadnaught

        I bow to your superior IT skills, but whether or not the date of the original report is or is not, is immaterial to the information contained.
        Much of that content is older knowledge than the date of publication. The fact that it is in the public domain infers that those in the professions would have been aware of its existence or preparation and could have taken remedial measures retrospectively, but chose not to.
        Not another case of hindsight engineering on my part, but I suggest an abrogation of duty of care by the contractors who would have known of the danger and limitations of it application and the competence of the Council Department responsible for the commissioning of the work.

  • Greychatter

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/817651/london-fire-grenfell-tower-block-cladding-latest-updates-european-union-regulations

    The Left will blame the Conservatives but maybe some other authority is responsible!!

    The thing that stood out me was the digity with which the people of Manchester treated the aftermath of the Suicide bombing at the pop concert. After the immediate response of the local community and the churches getting together and helping those in need following the Grenfell Tower fire the screaming and shouting and demonstrations wanting a scapegoat, is this the changing face of Britain through mass immigration.

    • M Mack

      Yes, that building would have had to have been signed off by the Council, The Fire Brigade and Surveyors. Oh, yes and Theresa May, the entire Conservative party and anyone who does not vote Labour.

  • Odo Saunders

    The comment made by the Bishop of London clearly illustrates that the hierarchy of the Church of England, as opposed to its members, is really concerned with spreading a left-wing political ideology from the pulpit and the altar rather than supporting the spiritual welfare of its flock. Do clergymen like the Bishop of London still believe in the Christian message or are they using their positions to preach a political doctrine aimed at dividing society? No wonder the Church of England is in a ruinous decline!

    • John C

      or

  • noobsy6

    The Tories need to be digging out exactly how many Labour related politicians are involved in this. Sadiq “Uncle Toms” Khan is the Mayor of this borough is he not? For example. Their continued silence smells like guilt to a biased press and that is going to ruin real investigation discoveries as the conclusions will already have been drawn in peoples minds. If your opposition is going to stoop to politicising a tragedy….you really have no other option but to stoop too…….just stoop better.

    • Dominic Stockford

      It is possible to stoop with dignity…

      • noobsy6

        Indeed.

    • MoofBongo

      The more one reads about it, the more obvious it becomes: this is going to be the end of the Tories. Expect a Labour landslide with Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 before Christmas.

      • MoofBongo

        Barwell will be resigning within days.

        • Dominic Stockford

          Nonsense.

          • MoofBongo

            Let’s see. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Barwell in court on a corporate manslaughter charge.

          • IanCad

            Maybe not against him but plenty of others should be charged – not just under corporate manslaughter, but individual.

          • MoofBongo

            Indeed. There are a few names that might crop up at various ministerial levels in the Department for Communities and Local Government over the past few years.

      • Inspector General

        One was hoping your appearance on Cranmer would add to the high calibre of debate found here. But it turns out you are merely a silly arse. Leave immediately, sir!

        • MoofBongo

          I’m flattered. Really.

          • Inspector General

            It’s best you go. One suspects your age is something ending in ‘teen’.

            There are some real hard men on this site who’ll rub your nose in your droppings. Be assured of that.

          • MoofBongo

            High calibre of debate. Missed that the first time. Very dry sensahuma, sir.

          • John C

            have 10 upticks

          • Mary Robinson

            If he’s a Momentum troll this is what they propose to inflict on us: http://www.redflagonline.org/2017/06/some-next-steps-for-momentum/

      • Dominic Stockford

        If that is to be the case we had better all sing “Things can only get worse…”

        [sung to tune of “things can only get better…”]

      • MoofBongo

        Since we go by the bookies these days, Paddy Power has another election this year at 13/8.

      • John C

        Really?
        a. There is no sane reason to have an election.
        b. I see more and more contempt from people for the way that the momentum mob [and the revolting bish, and the swivel-eyed LiIly A] are exploiting this for politics.

        • MoofBongo

          John, there was no sane reason to have the election we’ve just had. As I said, election this year is the 13/8 favourite.

        • MoofBongo

          b..What, just on here? Hardly a great national barometer. Although I agree with you, the contempt felt for those who sat on fire safety recommendations for years, and did nothing, is possibly going to be greater.

          • John C

            try reading, maybe even thinking
            where does it say ‘here’?

          • MoofBongo

            That question mark means something, John. It means it was a question.

    • Bandmomma

      Copied from the Telegraph letters page;
      Following the recent London Tower-Block Fire there has been a lot of Media BS so here are a few, unreported details (Sorry FB Land I have my B**ch Pants on at the moment):

      1. The block of flats was run not by the Council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 Tenants, 4 Councillors and 3 Independent Members.

      2 Labour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

      3 Labour run the London Council who manage the underfunded London Fire Service.

      4 Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

      5 The advice to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

      6 The decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

      7 The decision not to spend an additional £138k on fitting sprinklers was again KCTMO.

      8 The decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002 as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

      9 This was put in place to give leaseholders and tenants a greater say and the ability to self-manage, which in some circumstances has clearly proven to be flawed.

      10 Which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? It was Labour.

      11 Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

      12 Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

      It’s a modern lynch mob encouraged by bitter Labour MPs who, having lost a close election, want to destroy an elected government for a chance of a second election.

      This has nothing at all to do with the Conservative Government nor its current leader. The current protests are being organised by the Far-Left to justify their own ends (much like the riots in the USA).

      • Ivan M

        Bongo idiot are you taking notes? Seems like you have pronounced sentence on your own Labour buddies.

  • mmac1968

    Corbyn has consulted with his Hindsight engineers and they have agreed conclusively this material should not have been used. Corbyns Hindsight engineers have a 100% hit rate on all past instances.

    • IanCad

      No need for Hindsight Engineers. The fire hazard presented by rainscreen cladding has been known for years. Criminal charges must be preferred against the Architect of Record, the Fire Department, Building Control, the BRE, and the RIBA.
      I’m no lawyer but failing to act when knowledge of a danger is known should constitute manslaughter if deaths result.

      • Ivan M

        These types of cladding are standard in high rises for 20 years or so. One sees them used in every large Asian city. Cladding is the preferred choice when it comes to renewing the exterior of buildings. So far there has been no serious issues. We have many hundreds of buildings far taller than Grenfell in operation for decades. I understand they are fingering the insulation. But even there its seems to be a variant on polystyrene which is standard in iceboxes. Even though as a middlebrow layman I had come to the conclusion that the cladding was to blame after reading the reports, I am not sure that the matter is that conclusive.

        • IanCad

          Ivan, You’re correct, it has been used for years but not as it was applied to Grenfell Towers. It is the rainscreen gap that is the major problem as I wrote a few posts back. Further, and a point that, as far as I know, has not yet been mooted, is that the windows were replaced at the same time. My money would be on the fire funneling up the rainscreen and then through the gaps between the window frames and the structure – a failure of the intumescent seal.
          Heads must roll. A clear case of manslaughter.

          • Ivan M

            You are the expert. And I have to mention that I have seen the claddings only on office tower blocks. I do not recall seeing residential blocks – with their domestic fires and refrigerators – being clad in aluminum. The dynamic scenario you outlined sounds plausible.

          • IanCad

            Thanks for the compliment but a good familiarity with the IBC (International Building Code) is an education in itself.
            It must be adopted in the UK.

      • mmac1968

        Could not agree more but my response was aimed at Corbyn politicising the tradgedy. But not sure how criminal charges can be brought against the supplier if they supplied what was requested by the council and approved by their own planners and building regulators. The planners could face charges if there is a fire regulation specifically banning the use above 10m. And yet this same product is in use in many boroughs proving no one party is culpable. The fire hydrant reels which were on every floor in the 70’s were removed because of continual vandalism.

  • ancientpopeye

    How many re-lets in Grenfell Towers and who on the housing allocation department granted the leases and were they granted to a particular ethnic grouping, these are the questions that need answering immediately before they manage to destroy any evidence?

    • MoofBongo

      You think this is somehow about race?

      • John C

        lol

      • ancientpopeye

        I don’t know, do you? I am merely asking the question.

    • AlienPsyTing

      An estate in Victoria area London was raided a while back. 60% of the flats had been sublet.

  • IanCad

    Before it gets taken down—-

    http://www.studioe.co.uk/?portfolio=grenfell

    • MoofBongo

      Somewhat surprised it hasn’t been already!

      • IanCad

        I found the story in “Architects Journal” It was a short piece about the subject company and they might not control the link.

    • Anton

      Look on the council website for the planning permission for the upgrade, giving details of the latter.

  • I don’t quite know why, but Revelation 9:20-21 keeps coming into my mind.
    ‘But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries [possibly ‘drugs’] or their sexual immorality or their thefts.’

    • MoofBongo

      I don’t know why, either.

  • Mary Robinson

    Funny that a party that always wants to expand the powers of the state can’t acknowledge that the locals in the community stepped in while the officials in the council dithered.

    • CliveM

      Excellent point. There has been a pro big government agenda being pursued. But it was the non governmental bodies that were effective in their response.

    • MoofBongo

      Yes, and it’s funny how the people WANTED and expected the council do something. They certainly weren’t celebrating the correctness of the shrunken state.

      • Mary Robinson

        They’re being rehoused in luxury apartments in Kensington High Street.

  • CheshireRed

    1. Mass uncontrolled immigration – leading to over-demand for limited housing.
    2. Shortage of new-build homes in both state and private sector.
    3. ‘Climate change’ / Green regulations.
    Those were the 3 main drivers of this disaster. Excess demand for a shortage of homes and demand to ‘tackle climate change’ via ‘energy efficiency’.
    ALL governments of the past 20 years can to some extent take a bow and consider themselves part-culpable. Further, the hysterical Left can DEFINITELY own the immigration and ‘climate change’ points. This was nothing at all to do with the Right.

    • Dreadnaught

      An Australian points based immigration system is the only way forward backed by a robust rapid removal and appeal from the home state thereafter. We do not owe the rest of the world a living.
      The words ‘ illegal immigrant’ apparently no longer have any meaning, which undermines and taints any legal migrant with the skills and/or finance and other proven support qualifications to settle here and add value to the economy.
      It is not up to the host country to provide standard housing or benefits to anyone who has just jumped out of a lorry or washed up on our shores.

    • MoofBongo

      Nothing to do with the right? Nothing to do with austerity, deregulation, and Tory ministers doing nothing about repeated warnings that something like this would occur?

  • c50

    Anti -tory hatefest? Probably people coming to realise that neo con economics is causing the destruction of any sense of cohesion, and people are ready to speak out-Cranmer. Please.

    • CliveM

      I bet you don’t know what neo con economics are, never mind in what possible sense this Conservative government is pursuing them.

      • c50

        Try me.

        • CliveM

          I did and you failed.

      • c50

        You mean Hayek’s argument in The Road…to bolocks’ that ‘value is not intrinsic’-nihilst economics really; property is feeedom-well that sounds a lot like Marxist dogma;the price mechanism is all-something little snake Gove likes to spout-but a mantra hopelessly inadequate to deal with globalism and monopoly/ power elites like the public school class.

        • CliveM

          This is incomprehensible jargon.

          The neo con movement is political, with particular interest in foreign policy. See below quote from Wikipedia

          “While neoconservatism is concerned primarily with foreign policy, there is also some discussion of internal economic policies. Neoconservatism generally endorses free markets and capitalism, favoring supply-side economics, but it has several disagreements with classical liberalism and fiscal conservatism: Irving Kristol states that neocons are more relaxed about budget deficits and tend to reject the Hayekian notion that the growth of government influence on society and public welfare is “the road to serfdom.”[91] Indeed, to safeguard democracy, government intervention and budget deficits may sometimes be necessary, Kristol argues.
          Further, neoconservative ideology stresses that while free markets do provide material goods in an efficient way, they lack the moral guidance human beings need to fulfill their needs. Morality can be found only in tradition, they say and, contrary to libertarianism, markets do pose questions that cannot be solved solely by economics. “So, as the economy only makes up part of our lives, it must not be allowed to take over and entirely dictate to our society.”[92] Critics consider neoconservatism a bellicose and “heroic” ideology opposed to “mercantile” and “bourgeois” virtues and therefore “a variant of anti-economic thought.”[93] Political scientist Zeev Sternhell states, “Neoconservatism has succeeded in convincing the great majority of Americans that the main questions that concern a society are not economic, and that social questions are really moral questions.”[94]”

          • c50

            So you really believe there is a disjunct between Ayn Rand, Hayek and neo-conservatism? I’m not sure that article is very far reaching in its analysis.

          • CliveM

            Do you accept that neo Conservatism is a political philosophy, rather than an economic one?

          • c50

            From a narrow perspective yes as it attempts to create an existential threat-like Iraq-to follow foreign policy objectives; however, the idea of individual nations acting alone or as allies reflects the ‘realist’ perspective of the state in International Relations; which itself is predicated upon liberal/ libertarian economic ideas of the individual acting alone in the face of the market.

          • CliveM

            From any perspective.

        • Anton

          The labour theory of value, if that is what you believe, looks good when only a single factory, run by the original inventor, is making a certain widget, but doesn’t look so good when a second factory makes it by an entirely new process that is far easier.

          • CliveM

            It’s hard to know what he believes. The fact he talks about “neo con” economics shows he doesn’t know what he believes. I suspect he meant neoliberal.

          • c50

            No, Hayek said nothing has any intrinsic value-Rand didn’t go as nihilist as that-and argued that you need a power elite ( like the millionaire lists and veneration of Philip Green types) who can give value to products and goods through taste. This completely undermines the idea of libertarian equality-elitism is created by a marketplace skewed to the values of the rich and old gentry. That is why some liberal philosophers see Hayek as essentially feudalist as his system is based on hierarchy and not anti hierarchy.

    • Anton

      Left and Right, they both print unbacked fiat currency as fast as they can. It is a disgrace. Of the 3 ways to deal with it, economic growth isn’t conceivable at today’s levels of tax. That leaves serious inflation or default. Trouble ahead!

      • c50

        Do you actually believe this utopianism of the market-isn’t it you are realising that lie has been exposed-let’s be like the US; lower taxes and the highest prison population in the western world-17% of GDP spent on health-go and live in Texas and enjoy the rattlesnake shoots you ideological buffoon.

        • Anton

          Taxes are not low in the USA and it is not economics that is responsible for the size of the US prison population.

          People resort to insults when they run out of ideas. Do you want a constructive dialogue about economics?

          • c50

            Yes.What is the economics you believe is so pure then.

          • Anton

            Let’s start by accepting that fiat currency is a con perpetrated on peoples by governments.

  • petej

    I don’t blame the tories any more than the people who consistently voted for more and more cuts to public services, both at a national level and a council level. Cuts to public services actually mean people are going to die. This horrible tragedy is just the tip of the ice berg of the people who have died due to inadequate or hostile government as a result of the cuts.

    Why do people still vote for this uncaring incompetent party?

    The government first promised the survivors free bus fares for children and then £5000, but my understanding is they haven’t been given anything or even been found somewhere else to stay. Why are they still being failed? Why not give them temporary accommodation and food in parliament? We don’t seem to be using that at the moment!

    Jeremy Corbyn is being pictured hugging survivors because he actually visited the survivors, as did the Queen. A pretty basic thing to do for political leaders and humans alike. Mrs May is pictured scowling at the emergency services because that’s what she did.

  • Coniston

    I have just come across this piece about tower blocks – by John Betjeman:

    When brutalist monstrosities such as Grenfell Tower first started popping up all over London and other British cities, poet John Betjeman (who was Poet Laureate of the United Kingdom from 1972 until his death in 1984) was a vocal and tireless critic of this brave new world. He was treated as an embarrassment, a sad, reactionary old man with outdated views entirely at odds with progressive thinking. Re-reading some of his lines on the subject, he sounds rather more like a doomed prophet.

    Pepys Estate, Deptford by John Betjeman:

    Where can be the heart that sends a family to the 20th floor
    In such a slab as this.
It can’t be right, however fine the view
    Over to Greenwich, and the Isle of Dogs.
    It can’t be right, caged halfway up the sky
    Not knowing your neighbour, frightened of the lift,
    And who’ll be in it, and who’s down below
    And are the children safe?

    What is housing if it’s not a home?