World Watch List 2016 Map
Christian Persecution

Global persecution of Christians more extreme than ever

 

This week many in the church and a few in the media have their eyes on Justin Welby and the Primates meeting in Canterbury, waiting to see if the Anglican communion will tear itself apart over the matter of homosexuality. But there is also another item of news which will gain much less attention despite being of far greater significance. It is the latest picture displaying the extent of persecution of Christians around the world. This comes via the much respected 2016 World Watch List published by Open Doors today.

This report which highlights the 50 most dangerous countries for Christians to live in does not make for easy reading. News of Islamic extremism and terrorism frequently makes it onto our television screens with the plight of Christians and other minorities in the Middle East continuing to get a mention. Since the US-led invasion of Iraq, the Christian population has fallen from 1.2 million to around 300,000 and over the last four years, 700,000 Christians have fled Syria. This is a humanitarian, religious, and cultural disaster that tells just a small part of the story of the oppression, violence and killings that Christians are facing globally. Iraq and Syria are second and sixth respectively on this year’s List with North Korea topping it for the 14th year in a row. Under the continued paranoid dictatorship of Kim Jong-Un, anyone discovered engaging in unauthorized religious activity is subject to arrest, arbitrary detention, disappearance, torture and/or execution. Of the estimated 300,000 Christians in the country 70,000 Christians are believed to be imprisoned in labour camps.

Jesus warned his followers that they should expect persecution because of their beliefs and he wasn’t wrong; it is known that Christians face being persecuted in more countries than any other religious group. What is most alarming about the Open Doors report though is the rate at which these hostilities are increasing. Excluding Iraq, Syria and North Korea, where figures are impossible to gauge accurately, the number of Christians killed globally back in 2012 according to the World Watch List’s conservative estimates was 1,201. This increased to 4,344 in 2014 and last year rose significantly to well over 7,000. In Nigeria alone, 2,500 have been killed by Boko Haram. Less reported violence against Christian farmers by Hausa Fulani tribesmen has also been extreme with conservative estimates putting it at more than 1,500 killings. Both factions are carrying out religious cleansing, aiming to eradicate Christianity.

In Africa and the Middle East well over 100 million Christians are persecuted because of their beliefs. But India too is seeing persecution levels rise dramatically with the religious freedom of over 200 million people severely threatened by a new wave of Hindu nationalist electoral successes that have seen the introduction of drastic anti-conversion laws. Pastors have been beaten and killed, and members of their congregations forced to convert to Hinduism in an increasing number of attacks across the country. On average a church is burned down or a pastor beaten three times a week.

On last year’s List the persecution levels of those countries ranked between 26 and 39 were measured as ‘moderate’, with numbers 40 to 50 given the level of ‘sparse’. Now for this year using the same criteria even Oman placed at 50 is graded at ‘high levels of persecution’. The rapidly growing assault on the Christian faith around the world is nothing short of an epidemic.

Open Doors 2016 World Watch List Map 2016

All of this matters for the Church because when one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. When you see your family being tortured or raped or beheaded, do you just turn your back and ignore it? This is more than just a religious issue though. For anyone who values decency, dignity and the right to freedom of belief and expression, this multitude of violations offends our very humanity at the most basic of levels. Nor are we immune here in the UK from the effects and attitudes that cause such abuse, despite the supposed protection provided by our laws.

At least we can be proud of this country’s heritage of defending these rights. Prince Charles has repeatedly raised the persecution of Christians in the Middle East including during a trip to Saudi Arabia. David Cameron and other parliamentarians have publicly addressed this issue over the last 12 months. When today’s launch of the World Watch List is held in parliament, over 100 MPs will be there – a significant increase from the 74 who attended last year’s event.

Words and goodwill from our leaders are undoubtedly a start, but without action they will have minimal impact. As Lisa Pearce, CEO of Open Doors has said: ‘The trend is stark, as are the consequences for real people – we should not expect that to change unless we are part of changing the situation.  As a key voice within the international community and a generous provider of aid to a number of the countries on the 2016 World Watch List, I urge our government to do everything possible within their spheres of influence to affect what happens next’.

To prove that point, here is a breakdown of the latest Government bilateral aid figures  – i.e. aid given directly to the country in question – released last month for 2014 for the 50 countries featured on the list (figures in brackets are £million):

  1. North Korea (<1)
  2. Iraq (38)
  3. Eritrea (6)
  4. Afghanistan (198)
  5. Syria (130)
  6. Pakistan (267)
  7. Somalia (124)
  8. Sudan (50)
  9. Iran (<1)
  10. Libya (29)
  11. Yemen (82)
  12. Nigeria (237)
  13. Maldives (0)
  14. Saudi Arabia (0)
  15. Uzbekistan (1)
  16. Kenya (134)
  17. India (279)
  18. Ethiopia (322)
  19. Turkmenistan (<1)
  20. Vietnam (15)
  21. Qatar (0)
  22. Egypt (0)
  23. Myanmar (Burma) (73)
  24. Palestinian Territories (83)
  25. Brunei (0)
  26. Central African Republic (16)
  27. Jordan (20)
  28. Djibouti (0)
  29. Laos (1)
  30. Malaysia (0)
  31. Tajikistan (14)
  32. Tunisia (2)
  33. China (0)
  34. Azerbaijan (2)
  35. Bangladesh (208)
  36. Tanzania (149)
  37. Algeria (10)
  38. Bhutan (0)
  39. Comoros (<1)
  40. Mexico (0)
  41. Kuwait (0)
  42. Kazakhstan (2)
  43. Indonesia (16)
  44. Mali (2)
  45. Turkey (9)
  46. Colombia (7)
  47. United Arab Emirates (0)
  48. Bahrain (0)
  49. Niger (<1)
  50. Oman (0)

This all comes to £2.53 billion, which equates to 57 per cent of the total bilateral aid given for 2014. This is a sizeable chunk of money which when used in the right way should have the potential to act as a lever for some countries to address their human rights records. It is of course a complex matter with few easy solutions. Some countries have corrupt dictators or broken or dysfunctional governments, in others the governments are fighting the extremists and need support more than criticism. But this cannot be an excuse for us. There are a range of ways to apply pressure when we see Christians and other minorities being victimised. If we see ourselves as a Christian country or even just as defenders and promoters of justice on the world’s stage, then inaction is nothing but a miserable failure on our part.

It doesn’t take a theologian to see the need to defend the Christian faith. If an atheist of Richard Dawkins’ stature can see the importance of it, then despite his rejection of any form of god, such an appreciation adds validity to these words of Jesus to his friends:

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.” (John 15:18-19)

For those who are being persecuted it is a price worth paying for the sake of a relationship with the God who offers love and salvation through his son who himself was willing to be falsely accused, beaten and murdered. Amongst all of these numbers and statistics, we must never lose sight of the lives and courageous faith that lies behind them.

 

  • Dreadnaught

    The commentator and cheerleader for Islamic domination over a culturally Christian Britain, currently known as ‘Bob’ and others here gathering, who see Richard Dawkins and athesists in general as the Devil incarnate, may wish to note as a reality check, the following as hinted at in the OP and Tweeted verbatim by HG.

    ”There are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings,” Dawkins was quoted as saying in an interview with the Times, Breitbart reported. “I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any majority Christian denomination that believes the penalty for apostasy is death.”…
    “I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity,” Dawkins said, “in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.”

    http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/richard-dawkins-noted-atheist-praises-christianity/#lPuvSbFYWCEKXXb6.99 said

    • Bob

      When have I ever supported “Islamic domination over a culturally Christian Britain”? The utter idiocy of that comment is quite breathtaking.

      In effect what you’re saying is that anyone who refuses to join you in scapegoating Muslims as responsible for all the ills of modern Britain is in fact a secret Muslim agent working to overthrow all that you hold dear.

      The sheer stupidity of such an attitude relieves me of any responsibility for taking you or it seriously. Paranoia and extremism are clearly not just the preserve of fundamentalist Christians.

      I hereby dismiss you as a marginal and unbalanced obsessive whose opinions can be disregarded with an amused chuckle and a roll of the eyes. You’re in a minority of one even on this site, but by all means continue to rant and rave away. If venting your hatred gives you some form of existential relief, who am I to stand in your way? I’ll just look on and pity you.

      • Dreadnaught

        You have relished with glee on may occasions that Islam will subsume Christianity as the cultural religion of Europe and UK in particular, even though it has been pointed out to you that homosexuals would feel the sting of the Sharia rules and judgements that oppress minorities around the globe.
        I honestly don’t give a rat’s arse for your opinion of me; your reputation for egregious double-headedness goes before you for all others to see.

        • Bob

          If that’s what you think I’ve been saying then I have serious doubts about your ability to understand anything. This need to diabolise and misrepresent anyone who disagrees with your core belief that foreign is BAD is symptomatic of something far worse than common garden stupidity. Your mental stability is called into question.

          This site is the right place for you. A motley crew of religious obsessives and atheist white supremacists and xenophobes, all allied in their desperate and hopeless battle against the modern world and railing against their inability to impose their will on it. What a laughing stock this place is becoming.

          • The Explorer

            Why do you associate yourself with it?

          • The why visit this site, Linus?

          • Bob

            But Linus no longer visits this site, Dodo. I’ve never seen him post here.

            I visit this site in order that others who view it may have the true nature of conservative Christianity revealed to them. All the condemnation and hatred the flows on this site needs to be exposed for what it is.

          • Oh, you’re sooo brave …. Linus VI.

            A likkle super hero battling the forces of Christianity to single-handedly save the world from its rebirth. Boldly going were no other atheist homosexualist has gone before. Tell Jack, do you don a suitable costume before taking up the sword and going to battle?

          • Bob

            Puerile nonsense, Dodo. You really should learn to control that childish temper of yours.

          • “Whatever life holds in store for me, I will never forget these words: “With great power comes great responsibility.” This is my gift, my curse. Who am I? I’m Super Bob. – Super Bob.”

          • The Explorer

            “But Linus no longer visits this site, Dodo. I’ve never seen him post here.”

            It’s a conundrum all right, but how about if Linus had changed his name to Bob? Then it would be absolutely true that you have not seen him post here, but it would not be true that Linus no longer visits this site.

            You and Happy Jack would both be correct. Happy Bob, Happy Jack. Solved, with the wisdom of Solomon.

          • Technically he’s Super Bob because his name is Linus ….

          • Bob

            You do spin a good story. Got any evidence to back it up with?

            I thought not. There’s no presumption of innocence where Christians are concerned, apparently. Good thing you’re no longer in charge of the justice system.

          • The only incontestable evidence would be your ISP number and the only person with access to the numbers of both Bob and Linus is the host of this weblog.
            However, it is patently obvious that you have posted here as Linus in the past. You’ve also covered your tracks by deleting all your comments as well as the account. It’s not a crime to change ID’s and no conviction is being sought. It’s just intriguing and weird that every time you are embarrassed by losing an argument you run off, change your ID and return. Why bother?

          • The Explorer

            Not statements, supposals. Conditional throughout.

          • Andre´Kristian

            That´s the spirit, sir! We all know who is on Your side, but, who is on his side? An interesting thought…
            Confoundedly merry greetings from Andreas 😉

          • Bless you Andreas. How are you coping with the winter season in Sweden, dear sir?

          • Inspector General

            Your duplicity as illustrated by your multi identity ‘problem’ throughout your squalid appearance history on this site is only exceeded by your complete inability in your rage to not only fail to maintain the same position, but even to remember what they were…

          • Bob

            Come on Inspector, you could at least try to post in something approaching grammatically correct English. It won’t impart any meaning to your posts, but it will make them more readable.

          • Inspector General

            Damn cheek! The Inspector prides himself on his syntax. Besides, what do you know, you’re all but fully French with that unstable character of yours…

          • Bob

            You pride yourself on split infinitives and an inability to keep track of number within your clumsy and overlong sentences?

            Still, perhaps your command of the language is good enough for your station in life. Does a boy from the bog need anything more, to be sure, to be sure?

          • Inspector General

            The Inspector believes he is the first to tell you to ‘piss off’ on this august site…

          • Andre´Kristian

            Sir, it has given me a delightful pleasure to post an appropriate comment to that blithering buffoon Bob. He is such a boisterous bastard, isn´t he? It´s just a whim, but wouldn´t he look jolly great, kept in a barrel of formalin? We could keep him forever, as a souvenir from bygone battles!
            Let nothing You dismay, my cherished commander 😉

          • *chuckle*

          • Inspector General

            Good Show, Andre! If the blighter sticks his head up, shoot at will. Elephant guns are best…We’ll have his head nailed to the wall yet!

            Tally ho!

          • Andre´Kristian

            A relevant quotation from one of your many performances:
            “Facing up to your problems is the first step”. Exactly!
            So, let´s hear now, whilst you remain in that recumbent position, what have you been up to between the appointments at the psychiatrist? Has your favourite hobby, viz. net stalking, been prosperous?
            Are you getting along with the other patients at the lunatic asylum, and the nice young men in their clean white coats? I hope your strait-jacket is comfortable – not too tight?
            Ah! It would be of such interest to study your anamnesis, this delicious register of sins! I strongly suspect it contains a few tumultuous tit-bits.
            Tell me, have the sociological sermons and presumptuous lectures given our little tub-thumper any satisfaction?
            Now, your psychiatrist is rather distressed about this obsession to post things on Cranmer, and he is therefore willing to try something brand-new. As the venturous refashioner he is and since the customary psychopharmacological drugs have proved to be insufficient, he has decided to calm your nerves with a smashing drink. Capital!
            It will be a rattling mixture of Midazolam, Vercuronium Bromide and a sprightly sprinkle of Potassium Chloride, called “Pentobarbital party”.
            (Don´t try this at home, chaps!)
            I venture to say there is NOTHING the right blend of those exquisite ingredients won´t cure. Looks absolutely irresistible with a cherry in it.
            Go on, Bob! You deserve it. Cheers!

          • Bob

            Oh dear, the semi-literate Swede and his peculiar brand of almost-but-not-quite English is back. Perhaps I shouldn’t be too hard on him though. I’m told that dyslexia is a common disability in the frozen north. Anyone who’s anyone has a dyslexic in the family, from the Bernadottes downwards. Perhaps it’s got something to do with the all herring diet lacking in trace elements?

          • Andre´Kristian

            You coxcomb,
            how strenuous to notice this bombardment of effronteries!
            The ludicrous accusations bear the distinct stamp of self-righteousness and a desperate urge to assert your own, miserable person. It wouldn´t be far-fetched to say that the declarations exhibit a subconscious sense of social incapability and a traditional inferiority complex, where the imagined superiority has obliterated every scrap of self-criticism.
            Methinks this Bob is completely infatuated by his fancied brilliance, absorbing the poisonous vapours of his magniloquence.
            Might he look upon himself as an individual whom has got a daily practicable function to fill, or is this resentment caused by a personal defeat? If he had been part of the social machinery, he wouldn´t be so possessed by this abnormal craving for valueless activities, such as his repeatedly performed comments of ill-natured character. (Such annoying behavioural problems.)
            Any seemingly normal fellow, blessed with some judgement and discrimination – qualities he is quite deprived of – should be able to overbear those desires.
            May we assume his parents are proud of his achievments? Do they regard their conceited little monster of a progeny as a potential candidate of the Nobel Prize in literature? Perchance for his “polyphonic writings”? Damn and blast! What a parental delusion.
            Have a nice day and don´t forget your medication!

          • Bob

            The Swedish cook on the Muppet Show made more sense than you do. Go easy on the Absolut, dårlig galning. Jeg taler ikke svensk, men jeg er sikker på at du forstår mig, når jeg giver dig nogle gode fornuftige danske råd til at afskedige flasken, før du kommentere på en blog. Løsninger er aldrig fundet på bunden af ​​en flaske vodka!

          • Lol …. that’s Danish, not Swedish.

          • Bob

            Poor illiterate Dodo, your ignorance is on show for all to see yet again!

            Yes, it’s Danish. But do you know what it means?

            Clearly not or you’d have held your tongue.

            This is what happens when the Wikipedia educated start to believe they really do know everything after all!

            ROFL!

          • “Methinks this Bob is completely infatuated by his fancied brilliance, absorbing the poisonous vapours of his magniloquence.”

            Methinks you are absolutely correct, Sir.

      • Just who are we talking about here?

        “I hereby dismiss you as a marginal and unbalanced obsessive whose opinions can be disregarded with an amused chuckle and a roll of the eyes.”

        Hmm …

        “You’re in a minority of one even on this site, but by all means continue to rant and rave away.”

        Hmm …

        “If venting your hatred gives you some form of existential relief, who am I to stand in your way? I’ll just look on and pity you.”

        But does it actually offer you existential relief, Linus?

        • Bob

          No need to ask you the same question, Dodo. It’s evident enough what gives you existential relief.

          • But Linus, Jack doesn’t rant and rave or vent his hatred on this site – you do. And the one who appears to be a marginal unbalanced obsessive in a minority of one, isn’t Jack – it’s you.

          • Bob

            A quick review of your posts here gives lie to your claims, Dodo. Just below is a prime example of the contempt you feel for anyone who disputes your right to dictate the “truth”. You are quite simply one of the most hateful people it’s ever been my misfortune to encounter. But your hatred will die with you, which is an encouraging thought. Any harm you can do is strictly temporary.

          • Oh please … do present this “prime example” of Jack’s alleged contempt for anyone who disputes his right to dictate the “truth”.

            Jacks feels sympathy for you Linus – not contempt. Something happened, somewhere, some time that has scarred you. Why not get off your high horse, before you fall off, and engage in a constructive discussion rather than quasi-hysterical and hate filled rants?

          • Bob

            That’s right Dodo, pathologise anyone who doesn’t agree with you. If I find your god and your divine right to tell everyone how they should live their lives offensive, there must be something wrong with me.

            And that is the very reason why there is something so very, very wrong with you.

          • So, no “prime example” to present after all, Linus.

          • Bob

            You stand condemned by your own words, Dodo. Neither the mythical Linus nor I need to repeat what you’ve already written.

          • You’ve made an accusation and say you have evidence. So, go on then, present your case. Demonstrate this contempt Jack is supposed to feel for anyone who disputes his right to dictate the “truth”.

          • Bob

            I will not sully myself by quoting your contemptible words. Anyone can scroll down this thread and see them for himself. Or go to any number of other threads and find similar comments.

            Remember Dodo, the good tree does not bear bad fruit. How corrupt was the tree that bore you? You can cry “Lord! Lord” all you want, but if he’s real, you are most definitely not one of his. He never knew you.

          • You’re delusional Linus. Jack has not condemned anyone nor expressed contempt for those holding a different view to him. It’s you doing that. The only reason you come here is to vent your hatred and anger at God and Christian morality.

          • Bob

            Dodo knows what he has done but refuses to admit to it. This is typical Dodo behaviour. Liars and deceivers often act this way.

          • “I hereby dismiss you as a marginal and unbalanced obsessive whose opinions can be disregarded with an amused chuckle and a roll of the eyes. You’re in a minority of one even on this site, but by all means continue to rant and rave away. If venting your hatred gives you some form of existential relief, who am I to stand in your way? I’ll just look on and pity you.”

          • CliveM

            I see no one condemning him but you.

            And you don’t matter.

          • The Explorer

            I feel I’m being left behind in the hatred stakes here, HJ. I’m jealous. You’re outdoing even the Inspector.

          • ;o)

          • Andre´Kristian

            Good morning, sir!
            Most of us are very fond of the valued gentleman named Happy Jack. I am quite impressed by his attitude and theological erudition. Further more, I appreciate Your comments 🙂 However, no man surpasses the supereminent Inspector!
            Blithe greetings from Andre´ – the jolly lackey.

  • CliveM

    An interesting list, most of which holds no surprises, however Mexico! Does anyone have details on this?

    I see Turkey on the list as well. Surely this (in any sane world) should exclude the from the EU?

    It should also be said that when we in the West get a bit paranoid about the status of Christianity and our ‘persecution’ we should indulge in a reality check and remember what real persecution is.

    • James60498 .

      Sane world? I think you answer your own question.

      As to your final paragraph. I agree in part. Of course what we suffer is not of the same magnitude and we should do what we can to help our fellow Christians.

      But that does not mean that we should allow ourselves to be persecuted either. Christians being persecuted is wrong whether the persecution is being killed or something far less painful. Not least when the same people that are persecuting us directly, are the same as those who are giving our money to those countries persecuting our fellow Christians.

      • Dreadnaught

        You only have to look at what happens and has happened to Middle Eastern Christians, Jews and minority faiths for the past 1500 years since the concept of Islam poisoned minds through indoctrination and fear.

      • CliveM

        James

        I don’t feel persecuted. I think what we are currently facing doesn’t yet amount to persecution. It may come, but it isn’t yet here.

        • James60498 .

          Personally neither do I.

          But then I work for a small company. There are 4 of us, all practising Christians. An Anglican, a Catholic, an Evangelical and a Methodist. We don’t employ anyone else so we aren’t subject to employment law and we don’t make cakes, or provide any other service to the general public.

          Some people have lost their jobs. Others have been bullied at work with the support of management.

          While people (OK a small number) have been investigated by the police for making so called anti-gay remarks. At least one Tory MP has said that anyone objecting to “gay marriage” should be subjected to an EDO and children and teachers in more than one Christian school have been harassed over that subject. Catholic adoption agencies have had to close.

          The Christian Institute has an excellent website listing many of these issues. It’s certainly not persecution as it is in some of these countries. But it’s certainly bullying.

          • CliveM

            Hi James,

            Yes I agree it is certainly bullying.

            And in relation to the Tory MP, congenital stupidity!

    • Rhoda
      • CliveM

        Rhoda

        Thanks for the links. Very helpful.

      • Anton

        And see the opening scene of the new Bond film for popular religion there.

        • The Explorer

          Good point. I found myself wondering what religion was being celebrated. It had echoes for me of ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ and ‘The Gentlemen are Coming to Town’.

  • Anton

    India now worse than China – interesting. These are easily the world’s two most populous countries.

  • At present in Europe, hatred of Christianity is largely manifested by attacks on churches and cemeteries but the growth of Islam and the strength of Muslim belief make it inevitable that attacks on Christians will become routine. Professing that persecution ‘is a price worth paying for the sake of a relationship with the God’, European Christianity waves the white flag of surrender before the battle with Islam has even begun.

    • The Explorer

      I’m not sure surrender is the issue. The Prosperity Gospel says, simplistically, that if you believe in God good things will happen to you. If belief in God really
      meant that you became rich, never got sick and were protected from threat, who wouldn’t believe?
      Christ said that those who were his followers could expect persecution. Don’t go looking for it, but don’t be surprised if it happens. This life is not the whole
      story. Every message to every church in ‘Revelation; contains the exhortation not to give up.

      • @ The Explorer—Perhaps believers would say that the Islamization of Europe is God’s purpose being worked out and that resistance would be both futile and wrong. To an outsider unconcerned with theological niceties, it looks like surrender.

        By welcoming Islam, churches throughout Europe have gone looking for persecution. There’s no doubt why European Christianity had to be persecuted, preferably out of existence, but why in God’s name did the churches acquiesce to Islamization so meekly? It was/is a catastrophic betrayal of the faithful.

        • The Explorer

          The quick answer is Gramsci. In the long march of Cultural Marxism through the institutions of the West, the Church is one of the institutions identified for infiltration: and that part of the Church that has bowed the knee to Gramsci has certainly capitulated to Islam (as part of the new proletariat) along with comparable defeatists in schools, universities, and the BBC.

          Commentators like Joel Richardson see Islam as the probable Beast of ‘Revelation’; and the Second Beast, or False Prophet, who urges all to worship of the First Beast because it is so powerful could then well be seen as that part of the Church that has succumbed.

          The latter part of ‘Revelation’ sees the Lamb, surrounded by the faithful, at war with the Beast and destroying it. Literal or metaphorical, ‘Revelation’ seems to envisage a terrible conflict. That seems unavoidable.

          • @ The Explorer—Cultural Marxism seems to have a particular interest in the West, that’s to say, in countries populated by Europeans. Gramsci must have had an uncommon hatred of whites to make him want to destroy their civilization.

          • The Explorer

            Marxism was concerned with the industrial world and so was Euro-centric. (Trotsky, if I understand it right, extended the concept from the industrial proletariat to the agricultural peasants.)
            I imagine Gramsci was driven by class hatred rather than race hatred and it was Marcuse who developed his ideas and replaced the bourgeois with the white heterosexual male and the proletariat with women, students, ethnic/religious minorities, sexual minorities and criminals in a new form of social war.

          • @ The Explorer—The industrial world has by now spread to non-white, non-Christian countries but Marxism seems to have little interest in wrecking those countries through mass immigration.

          • The Explorer

            True. It’s locked into the mind set of the 60’s and hasn’t moved with the times.

          • Ivan M

            It is not that they have not tried. But it is not easy to work up guilt among the Chinese, Indians or Japanese. Europeans have been a soft touch ever since the rise of Holocaustianity.

          • @ Ivan M—The Willi Münzenberg vow ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks’ suggests that the world’s white Christian countries were of especial interest to the Frankfurt School’s movers and shakers.

        • “Perhaps believers would say that the Islamization of Europe is God’s purpose being worked out and that resistance would be both futile and wrong.”
          Hmm … Believers would say that evil has to be tackled and that situations arise where it is proper and morally necessary to protect the life of others.
          It may well be God’s will to permit the Islamization of Europe in the face of secular humanism. However, man will be responsible; not God.

          • The Explorer

            The Anti-Christ is not the one against Christ so much as the one who seeks to take the place of Christ. That could be another religion, but it could equally well be humanism when it seeks to replace God with humanity. I say this lest it be thought from my statement below to JR that I regard Islam as the Beast. I don’t, because I don’t know. Humanism would fit the bill equally well.

            The Beast might be neither of those, but will be apparent to the generation for whom it is relevant.

          • Is the anti-Christ a person or a philosophy/false religion? It’s both. The spirit is from Satan who *inspires* both men and movements of thought.

            “Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. “
            (1 John 4:3)

            “To whom do we give the lie, if not to him who tells us that Jesus is not the Christ? Such a man is Antichrist, disowning as he does both the Father and the Son.”
            (1 John 2:22)

          • The Explorer

            I’d say the Anti-Christ is both. The spirit of rebellion against God through time, personified in a particular individual at the end.

          • Just what Jack concluded …. in his late edit.

          • From a most excellent article – on the spirit of rebellion and the prophesied apostasy:

            “A deadly illusion is to think that the world can be won over with forgiveness that doesn’t require sorrow for sin and a resolution not to sin anymore!

            A deadly illusion is to think that the churches can be filled up by not demanding anything from souls.

            A deadly illusion, is to think about opening the doors wide to everyone without asking anything from them: many perhaps will come in, but they will occupy a weak church, which will be transformed into their image; and after having made it similar to the confused place they came from, they will reject it for the umpteenth time as a useless church.

            What’s the use of a church that blesses but has no longer any desire to convert ? What’s the use of a church that has renounced the great work of Christ – that of saving souls – by causing their true conversion and sanctifying them through Grace? What’s the use of a church which in being unfaithful to its Master, is ashamed of His holy words: “Go, your sins are forgiven, and from now on sin no more, so that nothing worse befalls you”?

            http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/01/radicati-editorial-indulgence-is-not.html#more

          • Merchantman

            It seems then that Islam is as close as it gets to Anti-Christ as written in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 1 John 2:22. Certainly by the test of fruits the present ‘fruits’ of militant Islam suggest such.
            Makes any dilution of the traditional interpretation of scripture to be extremely perilous for All Christians in the face of such a threat.
            The liberals just don’t get it do they?

          • Anton

            Jeremiah told Jerusalem not to resist the Babylonians because they represented God’s judgement and it was too late (for which he was accused of being a collaborator and put down a well). Is it too late to repent of secular society’s statistics for abortions, adultery, promiscuity which have wrecked family stability – any society’s bedrock – and for which I believe God is raising Islam as judgement?

            An Islamic revolution would be worse for women. Judgement on feminism?

          • The Explorer

            You’re in cracking form on this thread, Anton!

          • In a Just War one has to take into account the probability of success. If it was too late for Jerusalem then resistance would only result in unnecessary deaths. However, in the absence of a prophet of God telling the West to let Islam run riot, Jack would say nation states, individually and collectively, have a duty to defend themselves against it, even if it is a judgement about sexual sin.

          • Anton

            The Islamic challenge is not from without, though. Just War theory isn’t relevant.

          • Jack was alluding to the persecution of religious minorities as well as internal Islamization.

    • dannybhoy

      Good post.
      “Professing that persecution ‘is a price worth paying for the sake of a relationship with the God’, European Christianity waves the white flag of surrender before the battle with Islam has even begun.”

      Not European Christianity but its leaders.

      • @ dannybhoy—European Christians are in the most urgent need of new leaders.

  • IanCad

    Let’s cut to the chase. If we send money to any country which, as a matter of policy or neglect, allows the persecution of our Christian brothers; then we are enablers, accessories, or accomplices of those regimes. Justly then, we should share in the terrible judgment that is bound to come; whether from God or as a result of our own hubris.

    The same persecutions arose under Oliver Cromwell’s watch:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

    We were sturdier folk then. Of course it may be argued that we have moved beyond showing any loyalty to Christians. They are just another religion, don’t you know? After all, look how homophobic some of them are. No, it wouldn’t be right to help them without equally aiding the Muslims who have been victims of colonialism, and, in our own country, of racism, exclusion and inequality.

    There is little chance either, of Johnny Jonas painting a scene with David Cameron – maybe in consultation with Richard Dawkins – firing off a screed that would make the savages cease from their bloodshed.

    As did Cromwell:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwell,_Protector_of_the_Vaudois

    We are a disgusting lot.

    • dannybhoy

      Yet there are those who believe it is our Christian duty to give regardless..

      • IanCad

        Danny,
        I think it’s also called, giving in to blackmail

        • The Explorer

          I see our annual £484 million a year, or whatever it now is, to Pakistan as a new version of paying the Danegeld. Here’s your money now leave us alone.

        • dannybhoy

          Hands up anyone here who honestly believes that the early Christian churches would have given money to countries who were persecuting their Christian brethren/
          We know through Christian and non Christian sources that it is Christians who are being vilely persecuted and abused, and yet our government(s) have refused to recognise it.

      • James60498 .

        There are plenty of countries who do not persecute Christians who do need the money too.

        But of course, the only ones that Dave and the EU threaten with withdrawing support are those who are not Muslim AND haven’t given in to the Gay Agenda.

      • Anton

        Yes, but to people in need, not to governments. Moreover it is not the government’s business to donate money collected INvoluntarily from taxpayers to non-British interests. The essence of charity is that it is voluntary, and we the people have less money to give to charities of our choice when the government takes it to give to causes of its choice. This is nothing but the nationalisation of charity.

        • David

          Well put !
          I totally agree.
          Your phrase “the nationalisation of charity” is a useful one.

  • David

    An excellent piece Gilian.
    Increasing pressure must be put upon of Government and the EU to use the lever of aid to address these abuses. This should become the main aim of our foreign policy.

  • Manfarang

    “Since the US-led invasion of Iraq, the Christian population has fallen from 1.2 million to around 300,000 and over the last four years, 700,000 Christians have fled Syria. ”
    Christians were largely tolerated under Saddam and Assad. Christians ran the booze shops in Basra.

    • Ivan M

      American neocons and their minions in the UK, would rather that you forget all about that and focus instead on removing Assad.

  • preacher

    Interesting to note that despite the current trendy idea in some ‘ Churches ‘ of replacement theology & criticism of Israel as an aggressor in the Middle East, they don’t appear on the list at all ! H,mmmmmm. food for thought or what ?.

    • dannybhoy

      That’s because Israel doesn’t persecute its minorities. I posted some time ago regarding Bethlehem. that now it is under the control of the Palestinian Authority Christians are being bullied and assaulted and pressured to convert.

      Consequently many are trying to get out, and guess where some of them are fleeing for refuge..?

      http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2012/may/why-are-christians-really-leaving-bethlehem/?mobile=false

      http://morningstarnews.org/2014/08/palestinian-church-forced-out-of-building-in-east-jerusalem-israel/

      http://www.independentsentinel.com/bethlehem-today-under-islamic-rule/

      Sadly there are Anglicans who still swallow the lie that Israel not Islam is doing the persecuting..

      • dannybhoy

        And hot off the press re Pakistan..

        Islamic Radicals Set Fire to Christian Church, Bibles”

        “Pakistan has a well-documented, extremely poor human rights record, especially toward minorities living there, yet still receives massive foreign aid from America and Britain. The ongoing pariah status of minorities in Pakistan is a concern big enough to warrant cessation of all U.S. and U.K. funding. Their choice to continue is dangerous considering that festering hatred toward the West in Pakistan has led to the export of terrorism,” (Wilson) Chowdhry said.

        http://www.charismanews.com/world/54399-islamic-radicals-set-fire-to-christian-church-bibles

      • preacher

        Thanks for the links danny, I hope many others prayerfully see them. P.

      • David

        When our group of Christian “pilgrims” were touring the holy places of Israel and the West Bank we visited Bethlehem. We were urged by our Israeli Christian (Catholic) guide to buy all our reminders for the whole 10 days tour, in the Christian owned shops of Bethlehem. This was because the Christian community there, could take little work except selling to visiting foreign Christians. They were persecuted by the Palestinian Muslims, and the pressures were worsening. Every year their community shrunk. At present rates, soon all the Christians will have left Bethlehem. Some of the families that were leaving were the descendants of Jews that converted to follow Christ in the first century, which is incredible, and their leaving speaks volumes regarding the depths of this tragedy – the expulsion of Christians from one of the seats of the faith. Islam is actively oppressing everywhere it seems. Why or why is europe taking in millions of these people ?

        • dannybhoy

          “Islam is actively oppressing everywhere it seems.”
          Which is why I feel so cynical towards the Anglican interfaith dialogues.
          Why are we continuing to say nothing meaningful when the evidence of Islamic persecution towards Christians piles up?

          Church leaders need to grow some balls and start demanding that countries in receipt of our tax funded foreign aid, treat their Christians with the same respect and care as we treat their citizens here in the UK.

          • David

            Whilst I am no fan of Archbishop Welby, to be fair he has pressed the huge matter of global persecution with the PM on several times, and made speeches etc. He has a considerable knowledge of both East Africa having visited some of the most persecuted and dangerous places recently. Moreover he knows Nigeria from his oil executive days. So on the persecution question he is doing a fair bit.

          • dannybhoy

            I don’t agree. All the time Christians are suffering, being raped, decapitated, sold into slavery, we should be shouting about it.
            We should be calling for a day of prayer and fasting for them.
            We should be insisting that there is a trade off with foreign aid, we should not accept that fellow Christians are being killed like this, but the schedule must go on, and so we won’t make too much of a fuss…

          • David

            OK you would like more done to draw everyones attention to the slaughter.

          • Anton

            I would like more done by bishops and Archbishops. I would like Justin Cantuar to thunder from his pulpit about taxpayers’ money going to corrupt regimes that persecute Christians. I would like him to publicly call out the Prime Minister about it. Otherwise, what is he here for?

          • David

            Fair point. We live in an age when prominent Christians seem cowed by secular mores and PC. I’ve often thought that Brits are now exceedingly overdue at becoming seriously annoyed. We are far too passive, too easily governed and ridiculously easily bullied by low politicians.

          • bockerglory

            It’s the fluoride in the water, TV, junk consumerism and mundane service jobs that make us passive. We are the dumb British population .

          • dannybhoy

            It’s all over the media David, everywhere.
            And the AofC said we should be welcoming refugees into the UK, but not specifically or especially Christians, because that would be to discriminate wouldn’t it.
            And we know that the CofE has signed up to Human Rights legislation and Equal Opportunities, “so Christians, you’ll have to take your chances, because we can’t be seen to be showing favouritism!”

          • David

            I agree totally.
            The institutional Churches, of the west, seem blind to the threat that non-Christian immigration represents to us Christians here !
            The Pope seems keen on letting any and all into Europe as well.
            It seems incredible to me, that whilst everyone is now aware of what is happening to the Christians of the ME, with Muslims killing them, exterminating them, our Christian leaders are welcoming millions of Muslims into Europe as well !
            I sometimes wonder whether I have walked into a strange parallel reality where common sense – the obvious – has been destroyed.

          • Anton

            Evil is coordinated although it uses the (spiritually) blind.

          • dannybhoy
          • David

            Thanks for the links. It is truly appalling. Germany, or rather Merkel, is obviously being leaned upon by those forces determined to destroy our Christian culture based civilisation. The EU is totally culpable and many of the institutional Churches, run by liberals mainly, are living in an alternative reality.
            I have to say none of this surprises me. Although I have stopped now, I have travelled through all the countries of North Africa and the ME, except Libya. I have read the Koran, some Sharia and read up on Islamic culture and history. But the west’s cultural elite has bought into the lies of cultural relativism, and it is going to take a lot to shift the out of this destructive, self-hating mindset. I feel we need to become far less passive and easy to rule.

          • dannybhoy

            I can buy the idea that because western nations’ falling birthrates means there won’t be enough people to pay our pensions etc, but by that logic those ‘imported people’ will have the same problem further down the line.
            But why not just accept that we will have demographic problems anyway, and allow our economy to shrink accordingly?
            Japan has the same problem but isn’t importing people. As far as I know they’re just working with it, and preserving the integrity/homogeneity of their culture.
            I agree with that.
            Life is tough sometimes. We can’t demand that things will always be better, we have to accept that things may get worse before they improve.
            So what’s driving this rush to import more and more people even if they lack understanding of our values and practices, may be poorly educated and have no desire to integrate?
            Indeed Islam has proved to be the biggest threat to Western stability and freedoms, yet our governments, police forces and media seem determined to deny or hide the reality.
            Why?

          • David

            Totally agree dannyboy.
            I haven’t visited Japan but I am aware of its immigration policy. Last year 14 immigrated to Japan. No Muslims – as in zero – are allowed to enter. I have studied the geography of Japan, although many years ago as an undergraduate. But I failed to persuade the tutor to take us on a “field trip” there !

            They are adjusting to the low birthrate by accelerating automation and just accepting that their national output will fall. Personally I would love it if our over-populated country could allow its population to drift downwards towards a more environmentally attractive level. What is the obsession with GNP – surely it is the income per capita that is then key economic index ? Iceland is a beautiful little island country with a population of just 350,000 and they’ve rejected the EU !
            I believe that at the outbreak of WW2 our population was in the 40s million. The country of my childhood (born 51) was a far more natural, beautiful place then than now. We can’t move here now for too much development and cars everywhere. Small is beautiful, if you remember De Bono’s ideas. Our political + cultural leadership is suicidal and completely clueless – all liberals to a wimp !

          • dannybhoy

            Scary!

            I don’t know you do I?
            Or is it just a similarity of age and values? (I was born in ’46).

            I remember my dad sending me down to the local gas works to buy a cwt of coke which I brought back… on the bike!

            We don’t need to constantly maintain or improve living standards, but to live a good life in harmony with nature and our seasons. Of course we need science and technology, but we need to use it wisely. God gave us dominion over the earth, but we are stewards not owners.

          • David

            Quite ! Good for you.
            Joining the village’s primary school at age 5, my Dad took me for the first week on the cross-bar of his bicycle, as he thought I’d learn the route better than in our jalopy of a car, and then I was expected to walk there and back. It was a tow mile walk. We loved it. On the way back we had “adventures”, arrived home knackered and went to sleep early. My childhood continued like that.
            I feel sorry for today’s over protected kids and youth. They have no concept of danger, but are stuffed with PC rubbish. This is no good, as it is a tough world out there.

          • dannybhoy

            Oh, that book; “Small is beautiful” by EF Schumacher.
            Read it years ago.

          • bockerglory

            Japanese are pioneering robotics to replace dreary automaton work but robots do not vote. Merkel wants the votes from grateful migrants offspring ….

          • Merchantman

            Failure to keep watch was punished by death in the bible and in most western armies until the later 20th century. The enemy should not be allowed to steal up on one because that is suicide for any defence

          • David

            Good point.
            But the liberals and socialists have turned the west into such a safe and “nice” place, that whole generations are now unaware that outside the western bubble the world is brutal and nasty. Most people are hugely naive. If you state the truth you are labelled a racist which is how the left attempts to silence reason and truth.
            Personally I feel we need to shake off these mental shackles that prevent us pointing to the truth and defending our own, far superior civilisation.
            I have good friends in Norway, both very liberal and socialist, who disliked by gritty realism. But they seem to be changing their tune now in response to what is happening all over neighbouring Sweden and in Oslo.

          • Merchantman

            Although one doesn’t like to lump all Moslems into the same basket I think it total folly to allow in more than a handful of western educated and genuine Mo type refugees.

      • dannybhoy

        Just received this rather good video with Colonel Richard Kemp talking about Israel’s borders…

        Educational to say the least..

        http://www.aish.com/jw/me/Why-Israel-Must-have-Defensible-Borders.html?s=mm

    • Anton

      Yes. I am tired of reading that “Christianity is being wiped out throughout the Middle East”. Not where it started it isn’t: that will soon be the only place in the region where it is tolerated.

  • David

    At least one of Paul’s letters praises those comfortably well off Christians, in Corinth’s new church perhaps, I forget which, who gave generously to the needy brothers and sisters elsewhere. They’d never met them but were united in Spirit. So as a Christian, who is fortunate enough to be comfortably off, I feel that it is my privilege to assist others, especially persecuted ones, through the excellent agencies like Open Doors.

    But I do resent my tax pounds being given to governments that encourage or condone the persecution of Christians. Sometimes when I look at my tax position I feel as if I am being mugged. It hurts especially hard when you consider that money you’ve “given” in taxes is being used to prop up unsavoury regimes that preside over serious injustice and even persecution, especially of fellow believers.

    • grutchyngfysch

      It’s in 2 Cor 9:5 – a generous gift which the church in Corinth appears to have promised for Paul’s mission in Macedonia. Interestingly, though, in the preceding chapter the real praise is reserved for the Macedonians themselves, who in fact provided “according to their means” and despite “extreme poverty” the proverbial loaves and fishes needed to supply the Lord’s flock in the first instance (2 Cor 8:1-5).

      It reminds me of something I read about the North Korean Church: that it shares what little (too little in fact) supplies and medicine it possesses that it might win more souls for Christ. Even though the very act of doing so endangers them, they practice the setting aside of “holy rice” in honour of the Lord to supply those in need. Sometimes the people they show charity to hand them in to the authorities.

  • Inspector General

    Rather unfortunate, but telling maps. Persecution is not confined to countries as such, apart from that well known psychiatric case in the Far East, but according to race. And the lesser achieving races find merit in retaining Islam as their religion of choice. It’s not a problem to them, per se, as the least successful peoples are also notoriously unconcerned about the rights of others, even down to their right to exist. And most certainly not about their right to live freely.

    Still, the Inspector will not bang his drum on the topic of self-evident racial traits too loudly as it tends to send Carl Jacobs loopy as he runs around his prairie log cabin waving his arms in the air and shouting “No! No! No! Dagnamit! Races do not exist, I tells ye!!!”

    • dannybhoy

      That’s better IG. You look more normal now.

      • IanCad

        He’s back to his J.M. Synge mode again. A well chosen avatar by IG who could give that poet a run for his money.

        The Curse:

        “Lord, confound this surly sister,
        Blight her brow with blotch and blister,
        Cramp her larynx, lung, and liver,
        In her guts a galling give her.
        Let her live to earn her dinners –“

        There must be some common DNA in there.

        • dannybhoy

          It’s a good photo. It suits the Inspector’s persona. I like it.

    • Anton

      As you have used the term “race”, might I ask you to define it?

      • Inspector General

        The inherent similarities of a group of people who share much the same DNA. There you go – it’s not hiding under the bedclothes stuff, is it?

        • Anton

          We all share much the same DNA. Every human at least 95% with chimpanzees, for a start. Please try again.

          If it’s about DNA then how come people were talking about race – again without ever properly defining it – before DNA was discovered?

          Clue: the human race.

          • Inspector General

            One suspects you lack the DNA to have coloured skin, or grow an Afro hairstyle. Don’t try to be too smart now…

          • Anton

            I’m smart enough to know that the placing of boundaries in a multidimensional continuum is arbitrary.

            Given that the purpose of sex is to mingle genes and that any man is co-fertile with any woman, defining race is an exercise in futility. If you don’t think so yet, please give me another definition. It’s you who are using the word so you must think you know what you are talking about. I’ll even tell you my strategy: the more definitions I knock over, the better you may see what I am getting at.

          • Inspector General

            When you mingle genes that are much the same as each other, and we must mention the sub continent practice of marrying first cousins which for all we know may be a widespread Islamic practice as such, you hardly have a situation of expanding the gene pool. So what was good for the grandfather and father is good for the son. Is that not so?

          • Anton

            We each have on average about 5 recessive lethals, meaning that if we mate with someone else having at least one recessive lethal gene in common then our offspring are not viable (and probably never get beyond a few cells). Fortunately the human genome is so huge that the probability of marrying someone with even one recessive lethal in common is very low. (Marry someone with a healthy dominant of that gene and your recessive lethal doesn’t matter, of course.) That probability goes up when you start marrying relatives, which has long been a tribal custom in many traditional societies in order to keep wealth in the family.

            Inspector, I await a definition of race, the word that you are using.

          • The Explorer

            If race doesn’t exist, may we hope for an end to those much-overused words ‘racism’ and ‘racist’?

          • Anton

            I’ve been hoping for that for a long time.

            The point is that defining race involves the placing of boundaries on a continuum, and that is always arbitrary. How much melanin per square centimetre must your skin have to be defined as ‘black’, for instance? For any answer given, the next question is “Why that number?”

          • The Explorer

            My understanding of the whole issue is extremely limited, beyond the fact that Nature seems to have made provision to protect people according to their degree of exposure to the sun. This natural protection is affected by migration. The original inhabitants of Australia don’t get skin cancer, but two thirds of adult Australians of European ancestry do. That suggests to me they could do with being darker.

          • Ivan M

            Races exist as they have an ontological existence within the lifetime of a few generations. They have a greater tangible existence than many other concepts such as capitalism or socialism. They do not change within the lifetime of any one individual. They are however not cast in stone and may perceptibly change over say 200 years. But this is contingent on interracial reproduction which is generally not encouraged for various mostly valid reasons. For myself, I would not encourage my son to seek a spouse from outside my race, though I am alright either way.

          • Malcolm Smith

            As I pointed out just over a year ago, the idea that races don’t exist has not yet percolated down to those of use who are zoologists.

            http://malcolmsmiscellany.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/of-course-there-is-such-thing-as-race.html

          • Anton

            That’s pretty much what I’d hoped to elicit from the Inspector. It fills out my comment that this is an example of the problem of where and why to draw boundaries on a continuum.

          • DanJ0

            Interesting article. Thanks.

          • Inspector General

            Thank you sir! A very interesting read on a fascinating subject that dare not speak its name, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde. (To think we consider ourselves more free, open and sophisticated than we were in his time…)

            One’s interest in the subject is nothing to do with racial superiority (dominance) per se, though it cannot be denied that the races that respect and co-operate with ALL of fellow mankind are light years ahead in being successful compared to those who don’t. No sir, one’s interest is broadly confined to that of social and behavioural problems that the less successful races endure, and as a result blight his existence on this earth, and to a greater or lesser degree, our own existence in the Caucasian dominated areas of the world where curiously the worst of the failures of the human species aim to dwell, if they can, bringing with them their anti-social behaviour, but of course failing to recognise it as such because to them cutting their baby daughters genitals is quite natural. Or persecuting those not of their religion, come to that.

            The answer to the world’s greater problems lie in race, but no one dares go there for the answers…yet!!

          • Anton

            Hitler tried it.

          • Inspector General

            You probably don’t appreciate the irony you have in that post…

          • Anton

            The answer to the world’s greater problems lie in race, but no one dares go there for the answers…yet!!

            The answer to the world’s greater problems lie in Christ – in whom there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gal 3:28) – but too few dare go there for the answers.

          • Inspector General

            Let’s say that Hitler’s thugs were worse than the people persecuting Christians in that map, but one is sure in many parts, there’s not a lot in it…

          • Inspector General

            Anton, surely a common DNA sequence is enough for even you? Today, in Arabia, many male babies were born. They were all named Mohamed or a variant thereof, and in twenty years time, they will take your head off with a scimitar if required and not lose any sleep over it. That is the significance of labelling by race. It’s convenient….

          • Anton

            So race is actually religion?

          • Inspector General

            You’ll get a kick up the arse if this man ever gets hold of you…

          • Anton

            Are you tapping out?

          • Inspector General

            Look at the damn maps, you fool. YOU explain it. And this time, try to ignore your cherished PC beliefs and instead open your mind to the tragic truth of it all. Christians are being persecuted, killed even, and there is the sickening sight of you in your middle class home with your middle class values and your middle class smugness.

          • Anton

            I’ll take that as a Yes.

          • Inspector General

            For all your education, you remain fairly clueless as to what’s going on beyond that cosy world of yours…

          • Anton

            Inspector, if you write as you do then you must expect a bit of knockabout. The key point is that about the difficulty of drawing arbitrary boundaries on a continuum. If you want to correlate the genes for melanin (say) with other genetically heritable traits then that is genuine science, but you had better be accurate in today’s PC world. I take my views from the Bible, not the culture, just like Carl; do you think HE is PC?

          • Inspector General

            Oh do run and hide if the truth is not to your liking. As you as say, you’ll meet Carl there in the shadows….

          • Anton

            The truth is emphatically not to my liking which is why I run our congregation’s prayer group for the persecuted church. Now, about the definition of race…

          • carl jacobs

            Well done, Anton. I’m on my own tonight in a Chinese restaurant. I don’t have a pint but I can toast you with this cup of tea. If that’s acceptable.

            Going to a Chinese restaurant is pretty much the only time I ever drink tea. 🙂

          • Anton

            Thanks. By the way, try some of that Baileys in your porridge tomorrow morning…

    • carl jacobs

      The word is technically “Dagnabbit!” And races do exist. They are just arbitrary groupings of individuals based upon similar incidental external characteristics. Race is therefore morally meaningless.

      And since all humans are fertile with all other humans, the boundaries are both porous and fluid.

    • IanCad

      IG,
      I’ve kept out of this race kerfuffle but the nonsense penned by Carl and Anton is really nothing but political correctness disguised as baloney.
      Malcolm Smith – further down – seems about the only one to have the balls to agree with you. I add my name to those happy few who have sufficient commonsense, along with you, to state the obvious.

      • Anton

        Please look at my reply to Malcolm. If you still disagree with me, please define race.

        • IanCad

          Anton
          Hang the DNA and the genes! The evolutionists love them. Man to monkey??!! We know where that’s headed.

          Race should not be made complicated. It describes a people or tribe who in habit, appearance and character differ from other identifiable groups. It is not confined to colour.

          The Tutsis and the Hutus would be rather miffed if one were unwise enough to suggest that they are the same.

          I can scarcely imagine how the stately and lithesome ladies of the Kalenjin would react if conflated with their Bantu sisters, given the latter’s well larded backsides.

          Or, the Zulu and the Pygmy.

          Never, ever, call a Persian an Arab. Or, an Eskimo an Indian. Neither call a Japanese a Chinaman.

          No confusing a Solomon Islander with a Dutchman.

          And, we must be very careful with respect to other races in these British Isles. As Flanders and Swann make clear. (Much condensed)

          “The English, the English are best,
          I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.

          The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
          We’ve left in the hands of three unfriendly powers–

          Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
          You’ll find he’s a stinker, as likely as not —

          The Scotsman is mean, as we’re all well aware
          And bony and blotchy and covered with hair —

          .The Irishman now of contempt is beneath
          He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth —

          The Welshman’s dishonest and cheats when he can
          And little and dark, more like monkey than man —

          The English are noble, the English are nice,
          And worth any other at double the price.”

          • Anton

            And exactly who are the English? By blood, a mix of Anglo-Saxons and Danes who intermarried with the celts. We are mongrels. Look farther back and you will find that each of those groupings are themselves mongrel; and that this is the case just about everywhere. As for the pre-Roman celts of Britain, they were of many tribes and languages.

            Then there are cultural differences. The Welsh were strongly influenced by Roman culture, as they had been occupied; the inhabitants of today’s Scotland (of whom ‘the Scots’ were one such people) were not.

            You might be defining ‘race’ as ‘tribe’ but that is more a political grouping than a genetic one.

            These words are not meaningless. One can define how dark somebody’s skin is from the amount of melanin in it. But where to draw a line between ‘black’ and ‘white’? And that is the most over-simplified version of the problem of definition.

      • Inspector General

        Good to have you on board, Ian. Although the Inspector is long accustomed to being the lone voice of reason in a sophisticate world, he does appreciate the company.

        One is in no doubt that should Carl ever visit London with his family, he would not step outside of his hotel before asking at reception the names of the areas best to avoid. Principles can go hang when you’ve a family’s responsibility on your shoulders…

  • Arrgghhh … the *Administrator* has blocked this thread now.

    Reason:“Content of type Intolerance blocked”. How ironic that a thread discussing Christian persecution should be blocked for perceived intolerance. One couldn’t make it up.

    • The Explorer

      Is it coincidence that the blockage coincides with the arrival of the Inspector?

      • Funnily enough, Jack was just wondering that himself. Both the other threads were blocked after comments by him about alcohol and same sex. It makes one wonder.

        • Inspector General

          Welcome to our future…

    • CliveM

      It’s more then a bit odd that a blog is blocked not for the article, but for the comments about the article.

      • There are probably key words that automatically trigger a block. It’s a software programme and not an individual monitoring the discussion.

        • The Explorer

          It reads the word ‘Inspector’, and wham. Any way of programming it to react to ‘Bob’?

          • Lol …

          • carl jacobs

            Heh. You are encourageable, Explorer.

          • Nice play on words …
            It seems you are learning from the Brits, Grasshopper.

    • carl jacobs

      Poor Jack. I’m sure the BBC website isn’t blocked. Maybe a nice webpage about painting by numbers would help you pass the time. 🙂

      • ‘Tis true Happy Jack is bored, bored, bored ….. Have Netflix but the band width in the hospital is generally insufficient for it. Occasionally it’s okay and Jack can catch the odd game of football via BBC iPlayer and BT Sport. Still, it’s amusing teasing Linus and it helps pass the time.

        • Bob

          Ah, and the penny drops…

          I have a sister who does volunteer work with remand prisoners and she informs me that sometimes they’re allowed limited Internet access in order to help them put together a defence strategy.

          Is that what this “hospital stay” is, Dodo? It would certainly explain your bandwidth problems.

          So, what did they get you for? If you’ve still got an Internet connection I assume it wasn’t for online harassment, as surprising as that may seem. Put any bricks through any gay activists’ windows lately? Or perhaps that’s too physical an undertaking for an old geezer like you.

          Well, whatever it was, I’m sure justice will be swift and fair. Our revolving door prison system is unlikely to see you locked up for very long, but perhaps a period of leisure and reflection might do you some good. Pity the poor chaplain though…

          • You are still in touch with your sister? Hope you’re getting along better these days. How is her weight problem? Trust she’s forgiven you for your jealousy at her wedding.

          • Bob

            Sigh! As I have never revealed any details about my sister on this site, there is no way you can know whether we get along or not, or whether she has, or has ever had a weight problem. I don’t even pretend to understand the reference to jealousy at her wedding, but that’s not surprising. Considering you just make it up as you go along and possibly even believe your own lies, who knows what sort of fantasy existence you’ve invented for me?

            Here he is, folks! Dodo, the great Catholic defender of the Faith! A grudge-bearing mythomaniac who’ll stoop to any sort of base lie or deception in order to score a point against an enemy. Bearing false witness doesn’t even make him bat an eyelid, because ordinary Christian commandments don’t apply to special people like him. He doesn’t have to follow the rules, but you certainly do. When backed into a corner he’ll make a show of contrition, but then he’ll just carry on as before. By his fruits shall ye know him.

          • The Explorer

            Your second sentence is untrue

          • Pubcrawler

            Unless, of course, that was a fiction.

          • The Explorer

            It may well have been a fiction. However, it is inaccurate of him to say he never mentioned her. Snow White’s stepmother may never have existed in reality, but it would be wrong to say she doesn’t,t in terms of the narrative.

          • Pubcrawler

            It’s all getting too Protean for this Bear of Little Brain…

          • Bob

            Where’s your evidence?

          • The Explorer

            The sense that there had been no previous reference was perfectly clear.

          • Oh Linus, now, now, now. You revealed a awful lot about your relationship with your sister and parents on your original account. You know it, Jack knows it and the folk you are addressing know which one of us is an incorrigible liar and deceiver.

          • Bob

            Yes, I think they do know who the PROVEN liar and deceiver is, Dodo. You, not me. I’ve never been banned from this site and I’ve never traded false contrition for forgiveness. Can you say the same?

          • The Explorer

            Why either/or? Why not both of you? Jack has repented; you haven’t. If you insist that Jack’s repentance is insincere then you are arrogating to yourself what is the prerogative of God.

          • Bob

            Before you can prove to me what, if any prerogatives belong to god, you first have to provide reasonable evidence of his existence. If there is no god, he can have no prerogatives and anyone can usurp them. Indeed it wouldn’t even be a usurpation if there’s no god for them to belong to in the first place.

            Judge the sincerity of Dodo’s repentance yourself. We are told the sincerely repentant display the fruits of the Spirit. Is this what Dodo does when he insults and belittles others and attempts to turn their words against them. Is this a good example of turning the other cheek, responding to provocation with love and in general acting like Christ?

            Dodo is an unrepentant bully who regrets nothing but knows he has to act out a charade of repentance in order to be taken seriously by people who offer unconditional support in return for the payment of lip service to their beliefs. Of course you know that Dodo is completely unregenerate, but you don’t care as long as he mouths the same platitudes that you mouth. If you look beyond the insincere confessions of faith that any man can make if he feels it will bring him some kind of advantage, to the real behaviour of the individual concerned, then you will see him for what he really is. But you don’t want to because your list of allies grows thin, so anyone is better than no-one, eh?

          • The Explorer

            Your argument: you are not a liar, because Happy Jack was at a time when you did not contribute to the Blog. If you want scriptural allusions, take out the beam in your own eye.

          • Ivan M

            Happy Jack wasn’t lying at all when he posted as Dodo and later as Happy Jack. It is commonplace that one could take on multiple avatars. Nobody accused Bob-Tutanekai-Linus of lying when he took on protean avatars. Rather he was called out since he barefacedly lied to get his way. Bob is a minor pooka, quoting Scripture, at least as he presents himself here. The man is getting repetitive with his gimmick and risks losing his one or two fans.

          • The Explorer

            I wasn’t on the Blog in the time of Dodo, but I was when Happy Jack admitted that he and Dodo were the same person. A comparable admission from Bob that he and Linus were the same person would be welcome.

            I don’t want to dwell on this and detract from the topic of the thread.

          • Correction, Explorer. Happy Jack and Dodo are not and have never been the same person. Granted they share a common author. Happy Jack is Happy Jack.

          • The Explorer

            Apologies for poor expression on my part.

          • Not at all. It’s a fine distinction.

          • Bob

            Dodo was and is a liar, of that I’m am absolutely persuaded.

            And spare me the scriptural allusions until you can prove that your bible is anything more than a ragtag compendium of ancient folk wisdom masquerading as eternal truth.

            I can quote your holy book to you because you are obliged to take it seriously. But if you quote it back at me, be prepared to meet with disbelief and derision. Where’s your proof that it was divinely inspired? It looks like a very human and imperfect text to me.

          • “It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks””

            Well, we all know that’s you game but good of you to confirm it. Goad Christians and then when they respond accuse them of being hypocrites because they don’t passively accept abuse?

            There are just some pricks one has to push against – and you are a prime example of one.

          • Bob

            Poor Dodo. Hampered by the restrictions imposed on you by your messiah, are you? You should have chosen Islam as your vehicle of manipulation and self-aggrandisement. It offers much more scope than Christianity for the belligerent to pound on their enemies and still feel holy.

            But you chose your faith, you’ll just have to deal with its commandments. Either that, or embrace jihad and blast me into silence. The choice is yours.

          • Some pricks have to be pushed against and you are one such prick.

          • CliveM

            Make sure you wear gloves.

          • Pubcrawler

            “Don the gloves. Don’t attempt anything without the gloves.” (Withnail)

          • CliveM

            Been a few years since I last saw that film. But remember the scene.

          • Pubcrawler

            It has a quotable line for every occasion. Though not always for polite company.

          • Full protective clothing, more like.

          • CliveM

            Well can’t be to careful.

          • You have no reason to lie so your need to deceive and lie and must spring from perversity. We all know you for what you are Linus.
            “International man of mystery”, indeed.

          • Bob

            You have every reason to lie and deceive, Dodo. If people realized who you really are, you’d be universally shunned. Not that the lack of fellowship would bother you. The company of your own ego is all you need to be perfectly happy. No, what would ruin your existence would be the lack of gullible idiots to manipulate and control.

          • “The company of your own ego is all you need to be perfectly happy.”

            Talking about yourself again Linus? You’re the lone creature on here.

            “Who am I? I’m Super Bob – Super Bob – International man of mystery.”

            ROFL ….

          • Bob

            Poor old Dodo, as always he seeks (and fails) to twist words and turn them to his advantage. It’s his knee-jerk response to any situation in which he feels threatened. Here he displays the cynical need to manipulate that drives his combative personality. It’s too sad.

          • Super Bob – International Man of Mystery – to whom are you addressing your comments? No one’s paying attention because your reputation is shot. Time for a change of avatar, perhaps?

            To prevent you from showing yourself up further, Jack will end this exchange here. Do have your last little rant and pour out all that hate, contempt and bitterness for the cards life has dealt you.

          • Bob

            Poor Dodo, when he finally realises he can’t browbeat a person with his manipulative lies and accusations, he flounces off like an outraged empress.

            He really is beneath contempt. A true vision of what the pit would hold for us if such a thing existed. But no, the only demons I’ve ever met are human, and they cluster around the various manifestations of religion posing as pious and upright citizens, the better to prey on the weak-willed and the damaged. Such is Dodo, and when he misses a kill, his anger knows no bounds.

        • Anton

          Read, man, read! Golden opportunity!

        • dannybhoy

          Poor old Jack! Any idea how much longer you will be in for?
          Perhaps our Protestant prayers lack the efficacy of Catholic ones?

          • There’s to be a discharge planning meeting some time next week. As for prayers, Jack is sure that they have been helpful and efficacious from both Protestants and Catholics.

          • dannybhoy

            As I recall you are a grandad and live in a lovely part of Scotland with which I am briefly familiar.
            You are loved by your wife and family and appreciated here.
            I pray that you will have many happy and productive years in His service Jack.

          • Thank you. Happy Jack has indeed been blessed with many favours, Danny.

        • Hi

          You can always pop over and say hi to me on my blog…

      • Hi Carl

        As I’m now been given the job of managing our insurance stuff , our broker suggested we rethink setting up an insurance captive. Apparently Delaware, the Isle of Man , Bermuda or Israel. Hmm I know Israel, the isle of Man has a flag of someone with three legs , besides which Jeremy Clarkson lives there and Bermuda is tropical with a triangle. But …. what’s Delaware like ?

        • carl jacobs

          In what way?

  • Ivan M

    The statistic for India is greatly exaggerated. A Christian will have greater difficulty practicing his faith in Malaysia, than in almost all parts of India. There is highly localised discrimination in some areas, including on a rare occasion murder, over the years. But it is easy to exaggerate.

    On Syria, perhaps the statistician should note that the buggers who are persecuting Christians are invariably the “Islamic freedom fighters” encouraged until recently by the “Christians”, Cameron and Obama.

    • Anton

      Open Doors have pretty good sources. You can query them about this.

      • Ivan M

        They should also try to normalize according to population size. 1200 million Indians vs 28 million Malaysians

        • Anton

          Depends whether you want a “how bad is it in country X from the viewpoint of the worldwide church” or a travel guide.

          • Ivan M

            It should matter otherwise it is lying by statistics.

          • Anton

            No, that’s an imputation. If the caption is “how bad is it to be a Christian, per country” then it is wholly honest. If the caption is “how much suffering is the church in each country contributing to the pain of Christ’s body” then it would be dishonest. The solution is to order the countries alphabetically, quote two numbers for each, and give two ordered lists.

          • Ivan M

            There is no need for any lists. In India discrimination against Christians can be handled by the courts. The majority of cases involving violence against Christians, but exaggerated above, involve conversion of lower caste Hindus who then go on to demand to equal social rights with upper caste Hindus in places like Haryana and Gujarat where the caste system holds sway at the village level. These people would have faced violence even had they remained Hindus and demanded equal rights in their system. It is a social problem spun as discrimination against Christians.

          • Anton

            Do tell that valuable information to Open Doors. I was addressing a different issue in my preceding post.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    The worldwide persecution of Christians is becoming a sadly familiar story. From the overseas aid figures is certainly seems our Government could do more to lean on the offending countries. Why won’t it? Is it because of antipathy towards Christianity generally? I feel there is an element of that. Helping Christians does not fit in with the right-on liberal worldview, though helping any other minority does. The Government is like the rebellious teenager who despises his parent/s to the extent he no longer cares about their survival even. A lot of responsibility falls on Christians in this country to do whatever they can through supporting organisations like Open Doors. It is indeed tragic if the meeting of the Anglican primates is dominated by the Western obsession with minority sexual issues instead.

    • dannybhoy

      Christianity helped shape the Western world. Science and technology as disciplines were birthed through a Judaeo /Christian view of the universe. The belief in creation and order allowed men to systematically study and research the world around them. It didn’t/couldn’t happen under any other belief system.
      Or could it?

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Agreed. My understanding of the Church in the past (not sure of dates) is that it funded and encouraged scientific research because that would lead to a better understanding of Creation itself. I feel the same way about modern science and technology, which has been my area of work most of my life. I do not see the need for scientists to be as partisan as they are. I have a great interest in science myself. I just know it’s limitations, especially when it comes to the bigger questions about life and the Universe.

        • dannybhoy

          ” I do not see the need for scientists to be as partisan as they are. I have a great interest in science myself. I just know it’s limitations, especially when it comes to the bigger questions about life and the Universe.”
          This goes back to the conversation with Dreadnaught doesn’t it. People of reason accept the data, but they will interpret its meaning according to their personal preconceptions.
          We start forming our views on life from a very early age.

        • James60498 .

          I am a long way from being a scientist, and certainly the impression that I had was that scientists don’t believe in God. Of course that perception is encouraged by the BBC who whenever there is a debate approaching the subject it’s always between one of their well known , carefully appointed, atheist scientists and a priest/ vicar who, no matter how well educated in sciences, the undecided viewer can be made to think “well he would say that wouldn’t he. That’s his job”.

          However I have just finished reading a book by Francis Collins. (Well nearly finished it. Not read the appendices). He does make it very clear that it should not be science v religion and he quotes many other well known scientists in support of his view of science and religion together. He says that when the human genome was fully mapped that he appeared with Bill Clinton to announce it to the world and they referred to it as “our own instruction booklet, known previously only to God”. I am not much a fan of Clinton, but can you imagine any of our recent PMs referring to God in that way on such an occasion, or indeed any Christian in the UK getting to such a high profile science position? (perhaps you know of one, but I rather suspect he doesn’t get much airtime on the BBC).

        • James60498 .

          The Vatican still has an observatory

          http://www.vaticanobservatory.va

      • David

        Spot on. If you read Genesis chp 1 + 2 carefully and slowly you can almost feel the ordered regular rhythm as God is described making the world. It was the depiction of an orderly reliable God fashioning a universe that is also orderly, and running along lines (which we later called scientific laws) that were reliably predicable, that gave Christians the incentive to believe that we could investigate, discover and understand the laws of God’s universe.
        Unlike other ME religions and the capricious, cheating and quarrelsome gods of Greece and Rome, Judaism saw God as a just, honest, upright God. So the pattern for orderliness springs from our understanding of God. As you may guessed I have both a scientific and theological background, so the interface between science and faith is one of my special interests.

    • David

      Good short analysis. Open Doors is a truly excellent organisation. It has one of the best overviews on global Christianity, its successes and persecutions. I am a supporter, as you’d have guessed, and I’d commend anyone serious about spreading Christian truth to do the same.

  • Ivan M

    How did Mexico and Columbia, nominally Roman Catholic countries, end up in the list? It appears to me that any report of harassment by Evangelicals and other Protestants, at the hands of Roman Catholics are reported as persecution of Christians.

    Any idea that the UK can use its overseas aid budget to pressure foreign nations on behalf of Christians should be treated with caution. For it is often the case that the governments are more favourably disposed towards Christians than hardline factions within the those nations. Pressuring the governments, would generally leave them open to charges that they are succumbing to the West; which usually end up making things worse for Christians.

    • Terry Mushroom

      My understanding is that Mexico has a history of anti-clericalism and government hostility to the Roman Catholic Church. Graham Greene wrote “The Power & the Glory”, set in Tabasco in the ’30s, when the Mexican government was attempting to supress the Church. Sadly, Protestants are now in the firing line.

      • Ivan M

        During the era of the Christeros, those who defended Catholic rights, suffered grievously at the hands of Freemasons, supported in some instances by the nut-cases in the US. The phenomenon in South America now is that the Protestants are contending with the Catholics for such privileges as having separate burial grounds and such like, if my experience in India is anything to by. Strangely, some Protestants feel that Catholicism should just simply fade away and die, otherwise it is persecution. But this is an internal fight between Christians, and generally the Protestants who tend to be financed from outside have an incentive to exaggerate to impress their benefactors in the US.

        • James60498 .

          What Open Doors itself says about Mexico

          http://www.opendoorsuk.org/persecution/worldwatch/mexico.php

          • Ivan M

            Thank you for the link. In a Roman Catholic country, who else can racketeers extort, drug cartels murder, and policemen obtain brides from except Christians? I apologise for inferring that the statistics were due to Protestant complaints against Catholics.

  • bockerglory

    Please can we have a breakdown of persecution by sexual orientation? If we can show Obama that lots of LGBT Christians are being killed then EU and USA will desperately want to stop the persecution as in these countries how one uses its genitals is more important than protecting human life.

  • David

    Why does the culturally Christian west not use its formidable “Aid” power to nudge these countries to end such wholesale persecutions of Christians, many are asking here.
    I recently watched a speech by Putin, now an Orthodox believer, but formerly a atheist Communist. His life’s journey to faith reflects that of his nation. He is now a stout upholder of traditional Christianity, the traditional family and so on. He has met the Pope in order to discuss these global persecutions. None of this is ever reported by the western media of course, as he is the only one opposing the bankers top down, enslaving New World Order.
    His speech stated bluntly, as is his way, that the west is now embarrassed by its Christian cultural past and wants to rid itself of all reminders of its past faith. It continues to delude itself that all cultures and faiths are of equal value. Seeing the world only through this moral and cultural relativism it fails to understand what is happening with many things, including the “refugee” crisis and of course the global persecution of Christians.
    Much more could be done to assist them. Many MPs are concerned. Open Doors often gives parliamentary briefs. A recent one addressed over 100 MPs. But the western leadership, all committed, like Obama to relativism and The New World Order, is looking away, anxious to separate itself from its Christian past. Cameron is a classic example of this.

    • IanCad

      David,
      As usual, a well written, thoughtful post.
      Only thing is this “New World Order.” A phrase much beloved of conspiracy theorists.
      Sure, George bush used it, as have other politicians. I have to wonder though, if indeed there is such a thing. There is nothing new under the sun.

      • David

        Thanks Ian.
        I reject the more extreme ideas of the conspiracy gang. But bankers have always sought to use their financial muscle to gain ever increasing control, and it is the extension of that, onto a global scale. This is not the place or time to say more.

      • preacher

        But remember Ian, as the old saying goes ” just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you ! “.
        Pouring contempt on the truth is the oldest propaganda tool in the World.

        • IanCad

          Preacher,
          As David said below, this may not be the time to air the subject, but the catch-all phrase definitely needs defining.
          Certainly the banking industry seems to be a conspiracy, given its get out of jail free pass.
          Late note!! Goldman Sachs has to pay five billion USD to compensate for past fraud. Sorry – not fraud – misleading marketing.

    • Ivan M

      Putin is just about the only Western politician (as in white man), outside of South America who cares about Christians. For this he has to be opposed.

      • David

        You have obviously read the tea leaves. Few do, partly because of the now very out of date, ingrained suspicion of Russia, because it was formerly part of the Communist Soviet Union, and also partly because the western leadership, interested in supporting the US vision of a unipolar global power centre, is determined to expunge the truth about the endless, deliberately created wars, as part of western activities and also crush the Russian state, now the bastion of conservative Christian values.

        • Ivan M

          It is also interesting to note that the Russians, even as they are inheritors of the Third Rome have nonetheless always been able to maintain a respectful relationship with the Muslim world. This in spite of having killed many of them from the time of the Tsars. This is something the old British and French Empires were good at. The latter day Americans on the other hand don’t have a handle on it. The US should stop blundering around.

    • Anton

      The Anglican Communion has just remained faithful to scripture and tradition by suspending the Episcopal Church in North America for 3 years:

      http://www.anglicannews.org/news/2016/01/statement-from-primates-2016.aspx

      The suspension was not until or unless the Episcopal Church returns to scripture and tradition, so what happens in 2019?

      • dannybhoy

        More tea and bicuits.

    • Anton

      Do you know if there is an online English transcript of that speech, please?

    • Anton
      • David

        There are many speeches of Putin on the net, all with similar themes. He is no angel of course, but neither am I. However unlike the western leaders he is honest about the philosophical basis for the identity he wants Russia to have. He sees Orthodox Christianity as a vital part of the nations moral and spiritual base – what a contrast with the effete western leaders.

        • Anton

          I don’t intend to be driven into the arms of Putin just because my own culture is crashing around my ears, and Orthodoxy often exemplifies the excesses of politicised Christianity, but I do see what he is getting at and I’d rather drink with him than Obama.

          • David

            That’s similar to my approach as well.
            I am not saying he is a great guy, but simply recognising him as a leader determined to take his country forward, by employing their particular version of Christianity as forming a key component of the national identity. A comparison with the first Roman Christian Emperor Constantine may be useful, I am not sure. But compared to the confused and Christianity denying western leadership, Putin deserves appropriate respect.

  • CliveM

    Andre

    As I said to the Inspector, you are casting pearls before a swine. One without conscience, honesty or delicacy of mind. This particular sows ear is beyond redemption. I’d like to think its his French father that is the source of the problem. Whatever. Waste no more time on him.

    • Andre´Kristian

      Creditable Mr Clive, valued scholar,
      Your fair and upright comment is worthy of earnest consideration. My spontaneous reaction regarding the venomous viper and his outbursts of poison, was something similar to Your viewpoint.
      However, my temper and sense of justice urge me to reciprocate the firing from our fiendish foe. But, first and foremost, our laudable commanding general has blown his hunting horn from the Inspectorate, which is an irresistible signal.
      Therefore, why not offer Miss Bob a doughty dose of her own medicine?! We are men, not squinteyed spinsters hiding behind the draperies, fearing for our lives and cats!
      You are a veritable gentleman and an excellent writer, sir, but this egregious rotter shouldn´t walk scot-free and exempt from punishment. The little I can do to fight for common sense and rhyme and reason, I shall regard as my duty to carry out. All within the pale of the law and the august morale of Cranmer.
      Yours respectfully, Andre´

      • CliveM

        Andre

        You make a persuasive and literate case. He is of course a bully and a cad.

        Just don’t limit your contributions to your justified chastisement.

        I’m sure you can make other valued contributions.

        • Andre´Kristian

          Quite right, sir! I shall keep Your wise words in mind. ⚓️

  • The Episcopal Church quite rightly should be barred from Communion until they can get back on the track of the Bible again. Ditch the practicing homosexual clergy and all the other anything goes culture that they embrace. . .

    • sarky

      Brilliant. The cofe has put the rope round its neck and kicked the chair away.

      • The Explorer

        If it’s going to fade away anyway, what’s the harm in speeding up the process?

        • sarky

          The people who get hurt in the process!

          • The Explorer

            Quick death versus lingering death. Which is more humane?

          • DanJ0

            Is that an argument for assisted dying?

          • The Explorer

            Well spotted! I was, of course, arguing from Sarky’s perspective, but that’s exactly what I had in mind.

    • jhp151

      Even if you set aside the issue of homosexual clergy, there is still the bright line problem of clergy member dropping a wife for an alternative sexual partner. This alone should have precluded the individual in question from becoming a Bishop.

  • Apologies …. Jack has to post a comment to be able to access up to date comments on the thread.

  • len

    There seem to be two groups of people trying to’ take over the World’ by any means available to them these groups are atheists and muslims.(the extreme versions of either of course not the nice peaceful moderate ones ).Christians stand in the way of these political/religious groups because Christianity holds to the Word of God which is Truth both political and religious.
    So the philosophy of both atheism and Islam is get rid of the christians and we can impose our ( Islamic /atheistic ) version of ‘the truth’ on the World.

    • sarky

      Christians are no longer strong enough to stand in the way of anything.
      Speaking as an atheist, I don’t want to get rid of anything, I’m just happy to watch it fade away of its own accord.

      • len

        There is ‘a spiritual war’ going on between the Dark side and those on the Light side( bit like ‘Star Wars but real)

        • sarky

          You must be yoda to my darth vader.

    • DanJ0

      I expect some Muslims say much the same thing.

  • Meantime, whilst Christians are being persecuted in their thousands across the world the 3 year suspension of the American Episcopalian Church from the Anglican Communion drew this response from Christina Rees, a member of the General Synod:

    “This is not how Anglicans should behave. It’s awful. It’s a terrible outcome to the meeting of the primates in Canterbury. What action will now be taken against all those churches in the Anglican Communion who treat gay men and women as criminals? Will they be suspended for three years, too?”

    A somewhat emotional and hyperbolic reaction.

    And the good old Bishop of Buckingham, Alan Wilson, expressed regret at what he called “the side-lining of LGBT Christians.” He said: “Please remember the people in the middle of this. Not the ecclesiastical politicians, not the bishops in Canterbury Cathedral but the LGBT people all over the world who experience discrimination, who experience injustice, hatred and violence.”

    Again an attempt at replacing sound exegesis with emotionalism.

    • Anton

      What do these people make of Mosaic Law when they engage in Bible study?

      • Pubcrawler

        ‘when’?

      • But doesn’t the moral law, explicitly expressed in the Ten Commandments, predate the Mosaic Covenant? It was there from the beginning. As Jack understands it, the Natural Law, concerning man’s relationship with God, with his fellow creatures and the created world, is discernible through observation, reason and is also implanted in all our consciences – dulled as these facilities are since the Fall. What the Mosaic Law did was spell these out and made additional disciplinary demands on the People of God. We are all obliged to follow the former and, with the New Covenant in Christ’s Body and Blood, are no longer obliged to follow the latter.
        All that said, Jack takes you point about the absence of proper reflection on scriptural revelation by leaders in the Church – across all the denominations.

        • Anton

          I could discuss that but more relevant is this question to church liberals: Do you think Mosaic Law is directly God-given? If No, what grounds have you for trusting other scriptures; if Yes, was God wrong over the issue in question?

          • But that’s the point Jack was attempting to make. Many modernists argue that Mosaic Law no longer applies because of the New Covenant in Christ. This internally transforms through faith and grace rather than controlling and disciplining through external means . They will cite the Jerusalem Council setting aside the Mosaic dietary laws and circumcision. And this is quite true except the moral laws of God have existed from the beginning and remain applicable.

          • Anton

            We may or may not agree on what moral laws God wants to see enacted today, but I hope we agree that the way to put liberals on the spot is to ask them if God made a mistake when setting ancient Israel’s law.

          • The problem is that the Mosaic Laws – over 600 of them in total – are not all applicable today and modernists seize on this. The Mosaic Covenant has been fulfilled in Christ.So we do need to differentiate between God’s constant and unchanging Law and those that were contingent and specifically meant for the Jews.

          • Anton

            An evangelical might ask a liberal Christian if the liberal thinks that the definition of sin changed at the Crucifixion. But aside from that, the evangelical might ask the liberal: Do you think Mosaic Law is directly God-given? Then: If No, what grounds have you for trusting other scriptures (such as those about Christ); if Yes, was God wrong over what laws should apply in ancient Israel specifically?

          • Got you.

          • IanCad

            Further, they were the ‘handwritten ordinances’ placed not inside the Ark but in a pocket outside.

          • Jack was unaware of that IanCad. It does make sense though suggesting their contingent nature.

    • dannybhoy

      I saw that Jack, and she typifies the rotten thinking that has been busy destroying the Church of England for years. Human emotion trumps God’s Holy Word.

  • Bob

    What, you can’t read Danish? Considering you can’t write English, perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised. Foreign languages are clearly are not your forte. Never mind, I’m sure you’re good at something.

  • Inspector General

    Listening to the news earlier on, the Inspector now realises that the future direction of the CoE lies in the hands of bigoted heterophobes!

    Who’d have thought it!

  • Inspector General

    “I’d like to be accepted into the Anglican church”

    “Certainly, just read out what’s on this card”

    “Printed in England(?)”

    “Other side…”

    “I apologise profusely for two thousand years of hate and intolerance I have shown towards my LGBT betters”

    “You’re in!”

    • Ivan M

      Why are they apologizing to bisexual perverts?

      • dannybhoy

        Because as David would say, “It’s the right thing to do..”

  • Inspector General

    “Dearly beloved. Next Saturday, there will be a candlelit vigil outside the gay sauna where one of our {Ahem} ‘newer members’ reckons he picked up the HIV virus the other month.”

    • Andre´Kristian

      Truce of God, my chivalrous chieftain,
      please pardon my impulse, but I have got a rather distinct suspicion that the supercilious schoolmistress Bob and the aggressive sodomite on PN, by the username of Blokestoys, are identical. I recall this conspicuously unstable entity and his unreasonable attitude, and recognize the severe lectures and castigatory sermons he offered me about a year ago. (I was dauntless enough to expose my attachment to the Queen.) Two in one = a ridiculous rant with an alarming shortage of savoir vivre! A veritable sloven, I shouldn´t wonder. To be a sapient little part of the list of top commenters on Pink News was the grand deed of his miserable life 😉
      Your comment above is paramount!
      Your henchman, this night and always.

      • Inspector General

        Do you really think so, fine fellow that you are?

        Linus’ venom is such that a match would be rather easy to find…

    • The Explorer

      Is that a newer member of the Blog, or of the liberal Church? Is this what a liberal vicar might say, or an actual item from Pink News?

      • Inspector General

        It is not inconceivable that the source of the hate that propels Linus is some tragic disease acquired in an example thereof…

        • The Explorer

          Right. I’m intrigued by Andre’s view that Linus is a possible contributor to Pink News. (Not that that would induce me to visit the site: we get quite enough of him here.)

  • Inspector General

    And finally dear hearts, after the outstanding success of our ‘pen friends in Africa’ exercise, would any child be interested in corresponding with misunderstood men in prison. ‘Nonces’ the bishop calls them. Sorry girls, boys only this time…

  • chiefofsinners

    LGBTI?
    L – Linus
    G –
    B – Bob
    T – Tutenakai
    I – In Perfect Ignorance
    Can anyone tell me what the ‘G’ stands for?
    Anyway, we all profoundly regret the deep hurt caused over the years to any of the above.

    • Pubcrawler

      Git?

    • carl jacobs

      That is an interesting observation.

  • chiefofsinners

    There’s a picture on the BBC of Peter Tatchell in a beret. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35326324
    Uncanny resemblance to an avatar that we used to see a lot.

    • Inspector General

      Saw that on Pink News. It’s his flamboyant old queen look so it appears to be…

    • The Explorer

      Next to Tatchell there’s a placard saying we are all made in God’s image. If that’s true, then homophobes are made in God’s image. So are rapists and paedophiles. Maybe even bankers and politicians; although presumably one has to draw the line somewhere.

      • dannybhoy

        Oh, I beg your pardon! I didn’t see your comment.

    • dannybhoy

      One sign says,
      “We are all created in God’s image!”
      The implication being that therefore we are as God intended us to be..
      Does anyone here believe that?

  • David

    I understand that the American Episcopal Church is haemorrhaging both members and money rapidly. If this is so I wonder how much will be left in three years time ? The attitude of the orthodox Global South primates was that this very small gesture, of debarring them from certain decision making committees for three years, must be the beginning of a return to solid, traditional Biblical values. This I agree with very much, as institutional unity, whatever that is, must be based upon honouring the Word of God, and not that of the ever changing wants of this world.
    God of course doesn’t care a hoot about institutional unity, only what is in the heart of each person who claims to be a believer. Is that person obedient to His revealed truth, Natural Law and the other ways in which we can discern the mind of God, or are they rebellious, seeking to make a religion and god, in their own idolatrous image, as is described many times in the OT ?
    Ultimately Truth endures and human folly will fade away. Three years is but a second of time in the history of The Universal Church, let alone the consciousness of God. There that little bit might excite a few of the confused.

    • dannybhoy

      Good post.

      • David

        Thank you.
        I was expecting tirades from the angry lost and confused.

    • Phil R

      There are a lot of members.

      And there is a huge amount of money

  • Reta Mae Cherry

    EVERYONE knows these people who are invading by immigration, were raised to be lawless and godless, and they dont have anything to stop them from killing all innocents.

    People everywhere in Germany, Europe, Britain are calling out for help from these murdering slaughtering mutulating rapists.

    Why would anyone want them among us?

    People are being killed, and people are crying out for help, because they know they will be killed sooner or later. This is living terror!

    Trolls are scanning the Conservatives blogs, to see who they can complain and cry about and get them banned for the truth!

    And politicians sit by and worry about campaigns, while the Government does nothing, and other rich elite adds to the terror. The influential people for example, such as the pope, and our President, are doing everything they can to add to the oppression of our Christian brothers and sisters.
    Our people need help, and they need it yesterday.

    Not being tolerant of gang rape is Islamophobic says the democrat liberals.

    Terrified young lady gets censored and banned for trying to reach out for

    help. Why are these people allowed to feast on rape, killing, and

    mutulations, to say and do what they want, and we get censored and banned

    for it, if we try it? Americans we are living in sick times. Our world is selling us out to sick

    arabs. Get ready to meet your

    creator! Published on Jan 21, 2016

    Transcript at bottom. This 16 year old girl posted a video on Facebook

    saying she is afraid of leaving her house because she has been harassed by

    hoards of Muslim refugees multiple times. Facebook, in cooperation with

    the German Government, deleted her account and video. Please share this,

    download this, spread this. Make the world aware that fascism has, once

    again, limited our free speech on the Internet. “Nobody wants to live in a

    world like this.”

    Mark Zuckerburg caught on camera admitting Facebook will censor

    anti-migrant posts: http://www.infowars.com/mark-zuckerbe

    Facebook’s “Europe-Wide” campaign of fascism exposed:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eur

    TRANSCRIPT: http://pastebin.com/ZVCjzv3X