Christmas loneliness 2
Marriage and Family

Fourth Sunday of Advent: the searing loneliness of Christmas

 

If you believe the festive ads, loneliness at Christmas seems to be a preserve of the elderly. John Lewis isolates an old man on the moon, and the German company Edeka sees an elderly father fake his own death in order to bring his family together for the festive period. Both jerk a tear (rather well), and Age UK will tell you that thousands upon thousands of our senior citizens will indeed spend Christmas Day talking to the telly or staring out of the window.

But so will thousands of middle-aged and younger single people. They’ll go to bed on Christmas Eve after watching A Muppet Christmas Carol for the fourth time; perhaps they’ll have bothered to mull a glass of wine and microwave a mince pie, but joy and laughter will be half a world away. Some will have hummed along to Carols from Kings, as they do every year, staring at the lights draped around the tinsel tree which they painstakingly decorated for not a word of praise from any soul. Because there’s no one there for them. ‘In the Bleak Midwinter’ isn’t just a carol; it’s the haunting essence of Christmas Day.

Singleness loneliness is rarely talked about. The assumption is that the young, fit and gregarious could easily go to their parents’ for the day if they wanted to, and they’re probably not short of half-a-dozen invitations for champagne and turkey with friends. And some indeed may receive such invitations, and yet still decline, feeling unable to accept for fear of extracting token presents from another family’s merriment. They’re not a purposeful obdurate Grinch; it’s just that seeing others’ happiness tunes them back to the wavelength of their own loneliness. It’s a sad cycle of self-isolation.

And then there are the separated, divorced or recently-bereaved. Relationships break down, and some never get started for various reasons of disposition, orientation or holy vocation. And some end tragically and unexpectedly: widows and widowers come in all shapes and ages. When you lose your life partner, your soulmate, the one you hoped would sleep at your side and share a thousand old and grey moments with you, you drift aimlessly from room to room hearing echoes of laughter from the ghosts of Christmases past, and you howl. But it’s a private sob; an inconsolable song of grief which no one else hears. You just wander up to bed dreading waking up to a cold, silent, empty home. There’ll be no one there in the morning to wish you a Merry Christmas; no one with whom you can toast the birth of the Saviour, or hand you a shiny purple gift with a whispered kiss.

And the lovely water spaniel you once taught to speak with her eyes and roll over for a meaty morsel no longer wags her tail. You greet the imaginary presence, but there’s no patter of tiny paws or morning licks of love. No sliding on the ice or bounding in the snow with a flashing-blue jungle-bell Christmas collar. She’s gone, too, and all that’s left are golden hairs on the carpet and bits of chewed slipper. You keep finding them in dark corners: every precious fragment is a recollection of past playtimes and puppiness. But that’s all gone.

Don’t mock loneliness or deride the lonely until you’ve sat down and listened to someone bawling their eyes out for what might have been or used to be and will never be again. You may go to bed at midnight, wide-eyed with joy and childish anticipation. They, childless, fly back to their childhood, to an age when Santa came down chimneys, Rudolf shone, snowmen talked, and we three kings from Orient were. And now, grown up, all they have to look forward to is chopping a carrot, peeling three potatoes and cooking a roast for one. If they can be bothered. Oh, family will phone, and merry-christmases will be exchanged. But don’t ask them if they’re okay or what they’re doing for the day. They’ll just laugh and lie in their loneliness. It’s normal.

The Fourth Sunday in Advent.
The Collect.

O LORD, raise up (we pray thee) thy power, and come among us, and with great might succour us; that whereas, through our sins and wickedness, we are sore let and hindered in running the race that is set before us, thy bountiful grace and mercy may speedily help and deliver us; through the satisfaction of thy Son our Lord, to whom with thee and the Holy Ghost be honour and glory, world without end. Amen.

The Epistle. Phil. 4. 4.

REJOICE in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

The Gospel. St. John 1. 19.

THIS is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose. These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

  • Dreadnaught

    The best way to avoid loneliness at Christmas is to avoid ‘Christmas’ – or maybe go to church.

    • The Explorer

      Get rid of loneliness at Christmas: abolish Christmas. It’s certainly a solution.
      As G K Chesterton had it, get rid of pickpockets. Abolish the pocket.

      • DanJ0

        I doubt there’s anything particularly special about Christmas for the lonely, other than a juxtaposition with imagined families enjoying themselves in a quaint Victorian setting.

        • The Explorer

          Mind you, the BBC’s Sprout is certainly focusing on the theme.

      • Dreadnaught

        No Explorer ‘avoid’ does not mean ‘abolish’ – shows just how a story gets distorted – eh readers!

        • The Explorer

          I was thinking the Cromwell bit of your post. Wasn’t that more than mere avoidance?

          • Dreadnaught

            Quite so! – point conceded.

  • DanJ0

    Loneliness is a state of mind. I was quite lonely at university (which is not to say I wasn’t out drinking with friends much of the time), and especially during my first two years in London doing my first job from rented accommodation. I haven’t been consciously lonely now for several decades, even when I’m on my own for a while. In fact, I crave being alone at times; I actually have to be alone for a while. I’ve managed to avoid the office Christmas party this year, and an invitation to a friend’s open house Christmas dinner. If the weather is bright then I’m hoping to go for a long walk in the hills, and come back to my warm,quiet home full of Christmas lights and nice food. Bliss.

    • The Explorer

      I think some people are quite genuinely self-contained and self-sufficient: something the gregarious seem unable to concede.

      • William Lewis

        This is the introvert/extrovert spectrum which tries to explain how some people are more likely to be invigorated by company and others by solitude. It’s not the same as loneliness which is more of a longing for relationship. Introverts require relationship just as much as extroverts.

        • The Explorer

          Fair point; although I’m not certain about your final sentence. “It is not good for man to be alone” is true of humanity in general: certainly, solitude is not a sound basis for the propagation of the race. I suppose what I was trying to get at is, who decides when someone is lonely? Some are treated as lonely, when in fact they are not.

          The introvert/extrovert point is well explored in ‘Brave New World’ when Bernard and Lenina are in a helicopter over the Channel. Lenina weeps, terrified by the solitude and the silence, but Bernard rather likes them.

          • William Lewis

            It’s true that one man’s loneliness is another’s blessed peace. šŸ™‚

  • DanJ0

    By the way, I rather like these bleak articles every Sunday. Presumably, they’re still anticipating the celebration of Christ’s birth but from an alternative, Channel4-like angle for Advent this year.

  • preacher

    IMO Christmas can be an annual focal point for the sadness of many, but what is Christmas ? – It certainly is not the real birthday of the Lord Jesus Christ, He is no longer a baby in a manger, pine trees with baubles & plastic tinsel or inflatable snowmen or figures of a red garbed bearded old man driving a flying sleigh have nothing to do with the truth of the Christian message.
    Neither does the stress, over spending or most of the rest of the so called Christmas hype, which has more to do with the ringing of cash register bells than sleigh bells. No wonder at this time of year so many folks seek solace in a bottle of plonk. how often as the day draws nigh do you hear the sigh of ” I’ll be glad when it’s all over ! “.
    The lonely, sad & poor will be with us for the next year – Fact ! – When we serve & worship the Real Christ, the one who died in public & rose from the grave & now lives for ever more, we will want to befriend them & try to lighten their burdens, because God Loves them & if He lives in us, we will experience His love for them in our hearts. No hidden agendas, just showing His love, whether it’s appreciated or not.
    If we can do it, every day of the year will feel, & be a celebration of the incarnate God who came to save & serve the World & wipe away the tears of a suffering humanity.

  • Inspector General

    It’s a curious thing that those who express concern about others who live alone, do so at this time of year, and are invariably not lacking for company themselves. We, the solitary, and one understands there’s around six million in the UK, aren’t that concerned. Really! We’re not. In the main, we are not taken in by the commercialism of Christmas, and those of us who are working greatly value the three bank holidays coming up.

    That is not to say that there are fellows who would have it different, but if they’ve left it to Christmas, their lot can’t be that bad. In one’s experience, disappointment plays a large part. Family not wishing to travel the often hundreds of miles to stay with or near an aged relative. And why should they, when precious days off can be spent abroad in the sun.

    It all comes down to unreasonable expectations. The Victorians were good at coping with those, but somewhere along the way, modern types seem to have acquired a problem there. Getting other people to acquiesce to one’s desires is one consumer product that money cannot buy…

    • AndreĀ“Kristian

      As for this old goth, my self-chosen solitude is the most delightful decision I have ever made, my praised Inspector. There are, of course, overwhelmingly well-disposed women around, making brave efforts to persuade a poor fellow to join their company. I decline, unconditionally! No tedious pandemonium here, merely the halcyon atmosphere in my bachelor fox burrow šŸ˜‰ Solely Yours very truly, Andreas.

      • sarky

        As one old goth to another, when the kids are going nuts in maddening excitement, the dinner is burning and the mrs is screaming at the dog, I long for days alone in my room with nothing but a sisters of mercy cassette to keep me company šŸ™‚

        • Sam

          Dude

          This time last year, I got confused for a Goth, by some Goths babes, because I was dressed to visit my Hasidic father in law to be. They liked my big black floppy fedora and asked where I got it from so their boyfriends could look that as well!

          • sarky

            Lol!

      • Inspector General

        Ah, there you are Andre. On the subject of women, it is those who choose to outlive their husbands who suffer the agony of loneliness the most, one understands. Of course, when these women were young things, they would never have been found in social situations without their husband, and old habits die hard. But adapt and survive, they say – theyā€™ll have to learn to pretty up their lined faces and get down to a suitable bar. Once there, they can then compete for the attentions of the fewer equally old men left against their equally glamoured and more numerous geriatric sisters. On the pull, one believes this form of behaviour is called. Not an appealing image mind, octogenarian sexual congress, so youā€™ll forgive the Inspector for ending this post with immediate effect.

        • AndreĀ“Kristian

          Allow this endangered specie to pay his sincere respect before Your audacious announcement, my august author. Gauzes of amorous admiration bedim my visibility, however – I am damned relieved to learn that our worthy Inspector will be on his guard against flabby, flimsy, flippant flibbertigibbets in various states of decay this Yuletide. Keep Your coronet unsullied, sir! Stay unconquerable, irresistible and devilishly untameable šŸ˜‰
          With unswerving fidelity, AndreĀ“

          • Inspector General

            Womanhood in the English town of Gloucester is particularly tragic, Andre. Anglo Saxon types have interbred with the nearby Welsh to provide a dumpy hybrid. These things would be hard pressed to spell ‘diet’ let alone follow one. One is aghast when he sees them sunbathing in what summer we might have, lest their skin casing, on being heated and browned, burst down the middle before his very eyes…

          • AndreĀ“Kristian

            Dearly distinguished,
            while I have the honour and privilege of Your valuable attention and good graces, I am bold enough to commit a rejoinder. Odd beings, these intractable females and their conspicuous shortage of plain logic. A full-blown aesthete as the Inspector couldnĀ“t possibly find much amusement amongst the porkers, exposed and divested of garments and dignity. Wrecked hippopotamuses, simultaneously blustering about requirements of respect. Ha! (Such vulgarity.)
            Brush the dust off Your polished panoply, lower the portcullis and stride onwards, blazes!
            In a knightly spirit of tacit consent and effulgent effusion –
            Your distant yeoman of the guard, AndreĀ“
            PS. Male rivalry shall promptly be challenged to a duel at dawn! I will be him or I, Your Lordship šŸ˜‰

          • Inspector General

            If you should so ever find yourself with a woman, Andre, one’s best advice is to give her a baby, and PDQ at that. She’ll leave you alone for the most part after. Unfortunately, the Inspector himself is stuck with matronly whatevers these days who feel their life is unfulfilled until they stop a fellow from enjoying tobacco. Dreadful idea…

          • AndreĀ“Kristian

            My Lord and merciful messenger,
            with all due respect before my inestimable guiding star, let us entrust the disagreeable combination of women and Yours truly to the limbo of oblivion. Welladay!
            Chivalrous phrases, mincing, jesting and coquetry before the ladies on line, performed from a safe distance on Twitter, is merely an innocent, yet ridiculous, hobby.
            Now! I refuse to accept that any living soul would be able to exercise infuence and impudence enough to forbid the very Inspector the use of tobacco or anything else he might enjoy. God forbid!
            If so, I raise my metaphorical pole-axe in wrath to embolden You and to remind us of the motto that You and You alone are the ruler of Your realm. I wonĀ“t hear of any diabolical attempt to encroach upon Your delightful despotic nature! Thus, You are my sceptred superior and dearest degree of priority.
            With earnest fervour, AndreĀ“;)

          • Inspector General

            There will never be any living soul capable of separating the Inspector from his beloved tobacco, Andre. For there exists between us, a union that of the strength of marriage itself. Two deeply in love with each other. To paraphrase Churchill on his love for alcohol: “I have taken more from tobacco than it will ever take from me”.

            Some suggestions by well meaning but intrusive matrons are quite beyond the pale, what!

          • AndreĀ“Kristian

            How well and wisely spoken,
            my laureate liegelord and shepherd of souls! Yes, the spiritual affinity is obvious. An imperishable courtly love shall accompany this serenely happy, knightly bond šŸ˜‰
            I am a blithe fellow of simple habits and measured desires. However, the delightful consumption of coffee and cigarettes, along with an unalloyed passion for a certain renowned gentleman of kingly deportment residing in Gloucester, are vices too pleasant and attractive to relinquish.
            Confound it! This must be the most agreeable Christmas in many years. Believe Your ardent lackey of lowly birth to be in ecstatic delight, due to Your most amiable reply.
            In concord and unanimity, but foremost in gratitude. AndreĀ“

  • David

    The point about Christmas is everyone, even most of the rebels, are with their family. So if you are not, because you don’t have one, or they all dead, or inaccessible being too far to reach, or because you are estranged from your family by divorce or multiple bereavements, then it is probably a very difficult time.

    My wife has a friend who now, has absolutely no living family. So with my support she invited her to join us for Christmas Day. But although she’s clearly on the extrovert side of life, she politely declined as she thought she’d be an intrusion. You can’t drag people to your humble abode, so a sincere invite is all you can do. I expect that story is not uncommon. It is an awkward spiky time for some.

    • Pubcrawler

      There are also those, myself included, who are perfectly content to opt out of the enforced conviviality. My celebration of the Feast is, I hold, no less holy, nor less enjoyable: if anything, quite the opposite. Others have their own preferences and needs.

      • David

        Each to his or her own. By all means embrace the solitary.
        But the article is clearly about an enforced social isolation.

        • Pubcrawler

          Indeed it is, and I acknowledge the despair that they might feel. But your comment made some assumptions about why some spend their Christmas alone which did not accommodate those who simply prefer it that way. Hence the ‘also’. I do not see the point of Christmas as being with the family.

          • David

            Fair enough.

    • CliveM

      I think one of the problems is the forced togetherness. In my family you were invited until you misbehaved, then you were out. My paternal grandmother wasn’t invited for years for being a torn face old bint!

      • David

        Ahh yet another family vigilante squad !
        And who “provided” the judgement – the senior committee ? Were there enforcers ?
        But I shan’t emulate your delicate description of your grandmother’s face – dear me !

        • CliveM

          The ones holding the celebration. Fit in or get out was the mantra. Very effective. We had a lot of good Christmases.

          My Gran had a whole range of expressions, all a variation of being miserable.

          • David

            ” fit in or get out”
            Very communitarian. But a very valid choice.
            Our gatherings allow for a broader tolerance, with negotiated opt-ins and opt-outs – very Anglican perhaps – LOL !
            But your “fit in or get out” dictum should be applied more vigorously to immigrants though ?

          • CliveM

            True of any situation you are invited into.

            Good manners.

    • preacher

      Try inviting her around for informal chat & nibbles or a Mc,D’s during the year, that breaks the ice & makes her feel she is a friend rather than an intruder. Enjoy ! .

  • Orwell Ian

    Excellent writing Archbishop. It conveys a profound sense of the desolation loneliness can cause. I found myself hoping and praying that our none of us will be watching an ISIS Christmas Spectacular. Even Muppets are preferable to Maniacs. And so my thoughts turned to displaced Christians in Iraq. Last year many were trying to survive bitter cold in half built apartment blocks. Even with shelter for some now provided by heated and insulated tents, they still suffer the loneliness of those that have lost more than we can imagine.

    • Inspector General

      Well, perhaps an image of ISIS fighters warming their hides with the heat given off one of their burning tanks…

  • Uncle Brian

    I suspect Charles Dickens is largely to blame for the anguish and stress that so many people are going to suffer in the next few days. He set the standard for jollity and merrymaking at such an unrealistically high level that, in real life, nobody in fact enjoys Christmas as much as they think they ought to. And the wider the gap between the idealised Dickensian English Christmas and each individualā€™s personal experience of it, the greater the potential for being made to feel guilty and to see yourself as an outcast and a failure.

    • CliveM

      “In real life, nobody in fact enjoys Christmas as much as they think they ought to”

      Bit of a sweeping statement.

      • Darter Noster

        It’s not an unfair one though; just look at all the Christmas ads ramming down our throats the idea that everyone else’s Christmas is a wonderful extravaganza of visits, parties, family, carolling, friends, charades, kids, grandkids etc. etc. ad nauseam.

        I dare say for some people Christmas approaches the mythical heights of ad land, but for most of us even a very happy Christmas doesn’t look like it does on TV, never mind one spent sat on our own with nothing but a ready meal and the Queen to keep us company. I know from experience that when one is depressed one loses all sense of proportion about not just how bad your own life is, but about how wonderful everyone else’s is too; you think everyone else is doing brilliantly, and is happy and successful in a way you will never be, and you just want to hide. It’s horrendous, and at this time of year most of all.

        Plus, the Cratchits only had to put up with it all for a few days; we have to live with it from October to January.

    • Anton

      Humbug!

  • len

    The real value of an item is what you are prepared to pay for it. The real value of a person is what Christ was prepared to pay to redeem them. So whilst ‘the World’ might not value a person and see them as ‘worthless’ or ‘not worth bothering’ with Jesus Christ see them of an inestimable value and as such He gave His life to redeem them.So what the world values is transitory but what Jesus Christ values is eternal……

    • Phil R

      One of your very best Len

    • DanJ0

      If we were valued that much then we’d be ‘saved’ irrespective of belief, surely.

      • sarky

        For god so loved the world……That he sent the majority to hell.

        • William Lewis

          No need to send the willing.

        • Bob

          Hell is heaven’s central heating furnace. All those combustible souls are needed to keep Mary’s toes warm as she wafts about from damp and chilly cloud to damp and chilly cloud shod like a New York dowager summering in the Hamptons.

          My theory is that those open-toed sandals she favors are the reason most of us are condemned to burn. If she could just be persuaded to slip on a thick pair of woolly socks and some sturdy Birkenstocks (like any self-respecting nun) then we could all be saved. But no. Heaven help a mere mortal who comes between Heaven’s version of Sarah Jessica Parker and her Manolo Blahniks!

          We are to the Queen of Heaven as lumber is to us: only appreciated for our calorific qualities, except on the odd occasion when a particular log with a particular shape looks like it can be carved into something pretty that can be used for decorative purposes. Heaven is apparently littered with such objets d’art of questionable taste and dubious utility. I’m told most of them take the form of a sentient looking glass so that Mary and family always get the response they want to the question that occupies their every waking thought.

          “Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who’s the fairest of them all?” “You are, o Blessed One”, is the required response. And unless they get it, we’re toast.

          So there’s your choice: spending eternity as a sycophantic piece of furniture in the palace of a spoiled queen, or burning. Which option sounds less unbearable to you?

          • The Explorer

            Mariolatry is obviously a real issue for you.

          • Uncle Brian

            The suspect has changed his avatar from Sponge to Sideshow. Are we supposed to read anything into that, I wonder. Dropping in the name of an upmarket footwear brand is something the half-French persona used to do, I think.

          • sarky

            Just waiting for Bob ‘the builder’.

          • The Explorer

            Bob Cratchit would be appropriate at this time of year. Come on, Linus, where’s your sense of occasion?

          • The Explorer

            “Thou has harped my fear aright.” Or, in modern English, spot on!

          • CliveM

            He always had a problem with women.

          • The Explorer

            And Sarah Jessica Parker! Now, if he’d said Kim Cattrall…

          • CliveM

            There is now no doubt in my mind, this is Linus. The posts are typical ie long winded, self regarding, misogynistic and very pleased with themselves.

          • The Explorer

            Why doesn’t he just go back to being Linus? Then we all know where we stand, including Linus.

          • CliveM

            Ego, he flounced off in a huff and when he calmed down his ego will have taken a battering.

            Personally I don’t care, linus,tutti frutti, fu man chu, bob, it makes no difference. Different Avatar, same old ………

          • The Explorer

            I suppose when you’ve got an awful personality it helps to spread it across several personae, rather than concentrating all the horror in one.

          • Orwell Ian

            He’s Legion not Linus. Multiple blog personality disorder. Sowing confusion to waste everybody’s time. If you want to engage him you will have to put up with his games. Ignore him and he might just tire of all that typing.

          • Bob

            I wondered how long it would take for someone to scream “demon!”

            So where’s the baying mob and torches and the bloodlust? They’re never far away when religion gets its hooks into people.

            But I forgot! Christianity is a religion of peace, isn’t it? Tell that to the man whose identity has been usurped by the authors of this blog. He was burned alive by “peaceful” Christians, and given half a chance, would probably have done exactly the same to them.

            But that was 500 years ago! You’re not like that now, are you? But why not? The only difference between now and then is that you no longer have any political power. Every overtly Christian regime has always persecuted heretics. Once temporal power falls into your hands, you’re just like everyone else. So these claims of peacefulness and love ring utterly hollow.

            The only reason you aren’t coming after me to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible is that you can’t. But if there’s a Christian putsch tomorrow, we’ll soon see the crime of heresy reinstated. It will start with fines, then gaol sentences, then auto da fes. Christian regimes are just as bloody as any Muslim caliphate. And when they start screaming “demon!” at you, you know that their one desire is to eliminate you.

            But you can’t. So who will you take your rage and impotence out on?

            Pity the wives and children of frustrated Christians. When they’re itching to oppress someone, what happens behind closed doors is unlikely to be reported to anyone.

          • Bob

            I could just as easily have mentioned Jesus, but the central heating theme would have been harder to sustain.

            As far as I’m concerned there is no Mary. Or rather there may have been a girl of that name two thousand years ago who was knocked up by nobody knows whom, and as a result had a child who went on to have delusions of his own divinity. But I don’t think she can have resembled the alabaster statue worshipped by many Christians. No real live woman could.

            Mary was a useful character to hang a central heating metaphor off, that’s all. Go ahead and psychoanalyse my story all you like. Crazy sees crazy under every stone, and always knows how to diagnose mental illness. Never in itself though…

          • The Explorer

            Mariolatry means assigning Mary a status beyond that given to her in the Bible. Saying it’s an issue for you does not necessarily mean that you yourself believe it; it could equally mean that you are concerned about those who do.

          • sarky

            Pass the matches šŸ™‚

          • len

            Bit of a ‘sideshow’ going on here Bob?

          • preacher

            Panto season !.

          • Anton

            From what source do you take your information about Mary the blessed mother of Jesus?

          • The Explorer

            Don’t confuse him with the facts. Linus has always preferred invective to accuracy.

          • Bob

            The blessed mother of Jesus? As opposed to all his unblessed mothers, you mean? How many mothers did he have?

          • Anton

            I’m simply using a scriptural term for her which all Christians can agree about. The question stands: From what source do you take your information about Mary the mother of Jesus?

        • len

          God doesn`t send anyone to Hell.Hell wasn`t created for humans but for the fallen Angels who attempted to corrupt humanity and to get humanity to join them in their direct rebellion against God.
          Humans go to Hell by rejecting their only means of salvation which is through the mediation of Jesus Christ not as a punishment but by default.

          • sarky

            “God doesn’t send anyone to hell”

            Who does then?

          • The Explorer

            Isn’t the answer contained in Len’s comment?

          • sarky

            No. Nothing happens without god. So if not god who?

          • The Explorer

            Try reading Gregory Boyd. He says a lot happens that is contrary to the will of God. It is only with the new Heaven and New Earth, and disposal of the rebels (supernatural and human) that God’s will will totally prevail.

          • sarky

            So god can’t be all powerful then.

          • The Explorer

            That’s Boyd’s point. God has chosen to withhold some of his omnipotence for this phase of human history. When He choses to exercise his full power, watch out.

          • sarky

            Seems like trying to make square pegs fit round holes to me.

          • The Explorer

            Well, of course it does. It must do. The alternative would be to accept it as a valid explanation for the tings that happen that are contrary to the commandments of God.

          • sarky

            Or there is no god and things just happen.

          • The Explorer

            Of course; things can’t be contrary to the will of God if there is no God. Or there could be a god like Baal, and abominable happenings would be entirely consistent with his character. It’s only when there’s a God like the God of Christianity that abominable events are a theological problem.

        • preacher

          Sorry mate, – you buy the ticket, you name the destination !.
          Enjoy yourself anyway brother,

          • The Explorer

            Good way of putting it!

          • sarky

            Cant rememer buying a ticket! And I certainly don’t want any part of that journey!!

      • Phil R

        We are not God so we do not know who is saved but the scriptures suggest not all will be saved.

        Since the penalty for sin is paid it cannot be sin in itself that is the criteria.

        I would suggest it is the first commandment.

        • DanJ0

          The ones it values, apparently.

      • The Explorer

        If one looks at digestive processes, personnel interview processes or industrial processes, selection and discarding seem to be intrinsic every time. Maybe that’s true of the salvation process as well: written into the way things are.

        Allowing for that, there’s scope for disagreement: whether the right person was appointed, the right product created etc. Among Christians, there is disagreement about exactly how the salvation process works. That is to say, they’ll agree about those who are certainly saved: the dispute is about who else might be. As I’ve said frequently on this Blog, as far as I can see we don’t know because we haven’t specifically been told and must leave it up to God.

        • sarky

          It would be hilarious if we all end up together. Think of the hours of your lifeyou spent in church that you will never get back, all life’s pleasures you missed out on.

          • The Explorer

            Of course, if there’s eternity anything missed out in this life can be caught up on. Besides. you’re forgetting all my years as an atheist.

            But who said anything about “all”? Conscious rebels deserve what they get.

            I was thinking more of the grey areas;

            1. Condemning those who lived before the time of Christ for not responding to Christ.

            2. God making it impossible for some people to believe because He decided before they were born that they would not be saved. And then condemning them for not believing.

            3. Those who reject the Gospel because the only version of it they’ve encountered is the one propounded by liberal theology: and rejection of it seems the only decent thing to do. (My situation until I came across the real version.)

          • sarky

            When the rules are made by men and not divinely inspired, there will always be grey areas.

          • The Explorer

            Or divinely inspired, but limited by the brains of fallen humanity. Now, we see through a glass darkly. That won’t always be the case.

            At the start of ‘Revelation’ there is a sea of glass: the bubbly glass of the ancient world that impeded vision. But at the end of ‘Revelation’, the glass is gone.

          • sarky

            Revelation ? Rantings of a mad man.

          • The Explorer

            The imperfect glass obscures vision; then it disappears. As a metaphor for humanity’s relationship to God before and after the Second Coming that seems a perfectly reasonable progression. What’s the problem?

          • sarky

            Revelation full stop, too many scary people using it as an excuse to try and Usher in the second coming. Its obvious that its not prophetic but was written for the times.

          • The Explorer

            Nothing about ‘Revelation’ is obvious.

          • sarky

            Yes it is.

          • The Explorer

            Oh no it isn’t. After all, this is the pantomime season.

          • Anton

            I agree with you both! It’s called the Book of Revelation not the book of Obscuration! And it was written by someone who predicted globalisation, and the return of the the Jewish nation to its ancient land, 2000 years ahead of time.

          • sarky

            I would say ‘he’s behind you’, but you know I don’t believe that.

          • Anton

            Written by someone who predicted globalisation, and the return of the the Jewish nation to its ancient land, 2000 years ahead of time.

          • sarky

            So did nostradamus and edgar casey.

          • Anton

            Globalisation and the return of the Jews were already well under way in Edgar Casey’s lifetime as he died in 1945 and the Balfour Declaration began to be enacted in the early 1920s while globalisation was a fruit of the Industrial Revolution which began in the 18th century. As for Nostradamus, what did he say, please?

          • IanCad

            I’m sorry Sarky but if your view of a church service is time wasted and pleasure missed, then I must conclude that you have attended other than a Christ centred, joyful, service.
            Uplifting singing, encouraging sermons, half mile, not three mile, prayers. A story for the kids – sometimes better than the sermon. A plea to generosity. Fellowship, warmth; perhaps a shared meal after.
            A small congregation, just a few miles away.Hate to miss it, but of late have had to.

          • sarky

            I have been to all sorts of services in all sorts of churches, none of them have done anything but make me check my watch an inordinate amount of times.

          • IanCad

            I hope you check it discretely. My wife has the same disgraceful and rude habit. To make it worse she can’t see very well, so she stretches her arm up to light, waves it around to catch a view of her watch. Fiddles with her sleeve and makes a spectacle. Can’t break her of it.

          • preacher

            Don’t worry Ian, a preacher doesn’t mind too much when people look at the time. – He knows he’s gone on too long when they start shaking their watch to see if it’s still working !.

          • IanCad

            Very funny!

          • preacher

            I’ve been there a few times bro’.

          • Anton

            Immerse the watch discreetly in water when she’s not looking.

          • IanCad

            Corrected. Thank you Anton.

          • alternative_perspective

            Church is great! What r u talking about? Find yourself a better church.

        • Pubcrawler

          The offer of salvation is freely given to all. If it’s not taken up, well…

          • sarky

            Most gifts are given not expecting something in return.

          • The Explorer

            And that conception is itself the result of Christianity. Social Contract ethics are much more pragmatic: you scratch my back… I won’t steal from you, provided you don’t steal from me…

          • Pubcrawler

            It’s about acceptance, not reciprocation.

          • alternative_perspective

            Are not Most gifts given with the expectation they’ll be accepted?

          • sarky

            Ha ha you don’t know my mrs!!

          • The Explorer

            That’s why I have a problem with the L of the Calvinist TULIP.

      • len

        We all have free will God will not interfere with that, a decision has to be made to accept Christ who is the only mediator between fallen man and Holy God
        Christ is the only Mediator because He stood in our shoes suffered our pain, our sin, our suffering and can totally empathise with us but at the same time be totally and wholly God.Man cannot save himself by attempting to ‘be good’ (as many think) but must accept Christ as mediator.
        There is no other way.

        • sarky

          There are hundreds of other ways. Just depends where you were born and what religion you were born into.

          • len

            There are many false paths, false religions,but only One who proved Himself through Bible prophecy and through the Cross.

            I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. (Matthew 7;13)
            “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” (matthew 7;13)

          • sarky

            They all say they are the one true path.
            luckily most people have seen through all this superstitious nonsense.

          • The Explorer

            Actually, they don’t. Eclecticism (including theological liberalism) thinks there are many paths to God. That’s why it takes exception to Christianity.

          • sarky

            Still nonsense.

          • The Explorer

            That’s a different issue. We weren’t arguing about whether they were nonsense or not; we were arguing about whether they claimed exclusivity.

          • sarky

            The other major player definately does!!

          • The Explorer

            Absolutely. That’s why there’s such a problem with interfaith dialogue. Liberal theology dreams it up as a possibility because it can’t conceive of minds that actually believe in anything (other than belief in scepticism). Hinduism will go along with it. New Age syncretism will go along with it, insofar as it is derived from Hinduism. But Islam won’t, and neither will genuine Christianity.

          • dannybhoy

            You do come up with the odd perceptive gem sarky, but the general tenor of your comments still leave me wondering why on earth you bother to comment here.
            Is it the indulgent love of an enlightened one for those still casting about for the truth, or are you performing some type of penance?

          • sarky

            Neither.

          • len

            I did not accept Christ as the only Way without a lot of evidence both natural and supernatural .The evidence is there if you seek it, but once God’s Truth has been revealed to you it will turn your life upside down and there is no going back….every misconception, ever prejudice , every preconception will be shattered by the Truth….but many don’t have the courage to see themselves as God sees them but until this happens the process of redemption cannot begin.
            Jesus did not come to judge but to save and to open the doorway to all who would follow Him…..

          • sarky

            Jesus did not come to judge – why then are christians so judgemental?

          • len

            No Christian who has ever faced all the failings within himself can ever pass judgment on another human being without passing judgement on himself.
            But …..It will become obvious to anyone who takes a good hard look at humanity at large (and themselves in particular) then some basic problems will become evident.And this is the starting point on the journey to salvation.What do all the world religions have to offer?. All of the world religions have the stamp of man firmly on them…be good, do your best, and you might get to heaven?? This is plainly ‘a pathway ‘man has devised.
            God s Way…A crucified man …what could be more ‘foolish in the eyes of the world?
            But God has chosen foolishness to defeat ‘the wise’ because it was the desire for wisdom apart from God that led to the fall of man. It was pride that caused the fall of Lucifer and pride that led to the fall of man…Humility leads us to the Cross and salvation….

          • William Lewis

            We’re not really. It’s just that you don’t like to be shown to be on the wrong path. We’re not judging you, just informing you.

          • sarky

            Wrong path is just perspective.

          • William Lewis

            Yes indeed. God’s perspective.

          • sarky

            Not quite what I was getting at!

          • William Lewis

            What were you getting at?

          • sarky

            You would have to believe in god for a start.

          • William Lewis

            Not really. You can still argue that the wrong way is from God’s perspective hypothetically.

          • sarky

            Which is exactly what it is.

          • alternative_perspective

            Hey,

            If your invited to a Marvel superheros party but get a DC comics villain costume is it judgemental for other party goers to point out your not going to get let in like that?

            Even if you buy a bat man costume… Its not going to help, wrong universe.

            Its the party throwers prerogative to decide what’s the theme.

          • sarky

            If it was my party, it would be the person, not the costume, that would matter.

        • dannybhoy

          I would add that if there was another way, God would have revealed it. To pass over the life of Christ the Son of God without seriously and prayerfully considering its significance, is to confirm the rebellion and wilfulness of the human heart.

          To pass judgement on the behaviour of others whilst excusing our own breaches of our personal moral code demonstrates exactly why we will stand condemned before our Holy God.

          And if we cannot plead Christ as our Saviour and Lord, then we must ignore John 3:16 and plead our own moral and ethical goodness, which God says

          “And shall we be saved?
          For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
          And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
          And all of us wither like a leaf,
          And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”
          (Isaiah 64.)
          That’s the heart and beauty of Christmas!

        • DanJ0

          If its sacrifice has paid the price for my sins then that’s it. If it wants my acknowledgement or thanks then it can reveal itself to me and I will give those willingly. At the moment, I seem to be being held to ransom. Someone has bought my debt but not written it off, it seems to me.

          • Phil R

            “If its sacrifice has paid the price for my sins then that’s it.”

            Correct. So sin is not the issue.

      • carl jacobs

        In fact, precisely the opposite is true. The moral significance of man is demonstrated by the necessity of punishment. What we do matters only because of who we are.

        And this also illustrates why you do not comprehend. You do not account for guilt because you don’t see yourself as guilty.

        • DanJ0

          Len was talking about value, as was I of course. If we’re so valued then redeem us irrespective of our belief or lack of it.

          • alternative_perspective

            Hey DanJo,

            Redemption always comes at a cost. Whether it’s the pawnbrokers or salvation. The cost to the redeemer was humiliation, torture, crucifixion and finally rejection by those who would be redeemed.

            Redemption without Repentance is the perpetuation of injustice and unlawful.

            Your sin debt, paid by Jesus’ blood settled your account with God in exchange for a notional sum, your Repentance. Your debt, paid out of God’s riches. Consider the way Rover was initially bought out by BMW for Ā£10 in order to comply with contract law. THE Ā£10 was a nominal sum but without it the contract could not be closed, the transfer of ownership could not be completed. Without Repentance the law remains unfulfilled and the transaction incomplete. Thus to redeem you without Repentance would be contractually insufficient and therefore unlawful and consequently ineffectual.

            But let’s consider the question from the aspect of a true saint. Someone who gave their life to Christ in Redemption, suffered many losses for the sake of mankind, was beaten exploited and dispised by unbelievers and perhaps was murdered by them for her belief. Where would the justice be if you were just redeemed without Repentance, where you died happy, asleep and in bed and in antagonism with the one who died for you, having done nothing for the kingdom the other died for, perhaps having even opposed it? What kind of just or even loving God would permit that? How could you enter into the resurrection so unequally and impoverished, how could you live eternally knowing you exploited God’s goodness? Any reasonable person would be ashamed of such a situation, but Shame and guilt have no place in the kingdom to come, it’d hardly be… Heavenly, it’d be contradictory.

            At the end of the day. If there’s no God then the history of human suffering will always be unsettled. The staggering injustice will never be made right. Everyone goes to their grave and whether they did what was notionally right or wrong is meaningless. The drug dealer who has killed and raped and destroyed lives goes to the same place as the one who sacrificed and loved… And in only a couple of generations both are forgotten by man.

            Finally for what purpose did God make man, if man in his eternal rejection of God never permits Him to share His love, if God is eternally driven from His own creation? Would it not be in God’s right to completely withdraw from those who reject him? Of course it would, but this would be worse than an eternity of darkness? For it is by Gods will that all things are held together, that the physics underpinning the universe maintains its coherence. Without that sustaining thought from moment to moment physics would cease to be, matter, space and time would dissolve.

            Would you actually demand of the God you rejected and exploited that he maintain your existence eternally whilst also keeping himself to himself and eternally put of your way? It just doesn’t seem right to me.

          • DanJ0

            I haven’t rejected the god, I merely have no belief. For sure, people can say that I’m choosing hell myself using free will but that’s simply not true. If I had true free will in this context then I’d be offered the same choice as the angels. That is, this god would reveal itself to me let me choose to rebel against it or not. It has not. Moreover, our more extreme Protestant contributors here claim that I am so debased that I can only be aware of their god if it chooses to reveal itself to me, and that this god has chosen some people to damn and some to redeem based on some criteria unknown to us. I’m not seeing the value that Len claims this god sees in us if that’s how it behaves … or perhaps it only values the small subset it has paid the price for, and the rest are worthless and have been so since the beginning of time.

          • alternative_perspective

            In the context of our chat, presumably if you’re redeemed without Repentance and your resurrected then it should be reasonably obvious at that point in time that non-belief was rejection and attempting to maintain that status quo certainly would be.

            As for revelation, you have a problem. You’re not an angel, your present nature cannot withstand his presence, so any revelation would have to be mediated, immediately we have scope for doubt.

            Now knowing what rejection of God is, if he were to reveal himself to you what chance of free will would you have thenthen? If God gave you evidence that was compelling then by definition it would not be freedom permitting but compelling.

            Thus for God to maintain the semblebce of freedom you have (i ptefer to think of constrained) then all revelation must be veiled to avoid compulsion. It must be balanced so as to be sufficient for the individual to accept but also open enough to be dismissed. The determining criteria being the condition of ones heart.

            In my opinion, and I have personally witnessed this pattern in a number of friend and acquaintances around me. God repeatedly provides small introductions to engangev and open up. Subtle and often ignortable but frequent and highly diverse. The common factor is always, does the individual respond to the introductions on the terms offered and with humility and tenacity or does he or she reimagine the invitation according to their own perspectives, biases and aspirations.

            For example an old friend dumped their partner and went to the angel of the north in Tyneside to burn their photos and bury the ashes. Now he / she is a spiritual person but not Christian, very new age. As she / he r was sitting at the foot of the angel a girl came across the hill and handed her a flier stating: looking for a new change of direction… (or something similar) he / she took this as a ‘sign’ that the universe was supporting her choice. I asked her if she knew where the flier had come from… It was produced and distributed by the local church there. The invitation was from Jesus, via his followers but he reinterpreted it to suit. Other similar events happened to her and each time she forced the evidence to fit her priori conceptions. He didn’t believe but from my semi (and probably somewhat biased) objective perspective it was clear he was rejecting Jesus as the one behind the invitations preferring rather to credit the universe.

            I saw a friend in a similar circumstance, s he engaged but with a closed heart and little interest. He showed no humility towards the invitation and the evidence or any sense of importance. Consequently it was hardly surprising when he started pronouncing he’d looked into all this stuff and found it wanting. A bit like a 6 year old who has a few music lessons and after a couple of months pronounces the violin boring.

            God sends us all Lots of little invitations in our lives, often so subtle we miss them. At the end of our lives His will reveal all of these to us and recall how we responded. And in the sum of our responses to a life time of invitations our heart conditions will be revealed quite clearly.

            As for the highly reformed theology, God loves ALL. He is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should repent, turn and be saved. But for whatever ‘pragmatic’ reason some are condemned from the start in order that a greater good across time and space may be accomplished: a perspective we clearly cannot share. Personally I don’t subscribe to this but I do know that he takes no pleasure and is filled with grief for every person who is sent to destruction.

          • sarky

            And what about all those christians who put everything into their faith and received nothing and consequently left?
            why would jesus give signs to a non believer and nothing to the faithful??
            Prehaps it is you who is ‘interpreting to suit’ ?

            Please dont reply with the usual ‘they can’t have been real christians’ stock answer. I have read alot of testimonies of ex christians and you cannot deny the faith they had, many had a very slow awakening to the fact that they just didn’t believe. (Jonathan Edwards is a prime example).

          • The Explorer

            It’s certainly a problem with reward theology: where health and wealth in this life are the evidence of God’s blessing. That view is still intrinsic in Islam, which doesn’t have the equivalent of the Book of Job.

            For a moment there I thought you meant Jonathan Edwards the theologian of the Great Awakening.

          • sarky

            Sorry, was trying to copy the quatrain but couldn’t for some reason. Should be on here about half way down.

            http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/profecias/esp_profecia02.htm

          • The Explorer

            Newcomers, place built without defense,
            To occupy place then uninhabitable
            Meadows, houses, towns to take at pleasure,
            Hunger, pestilence, war, extensive acreage arable. (C.2:19)
            Thanks. Place built without defence doesn’t sound like modern Israel, though. Newcomers occupying place then uninhabitable would apply equally well to Australia, or Phoenix Arizona.

          • DanJ0

            Our more extreme Protestant contributors would say that one cannot resist if their god reveals itself. Also, I don’t see how knowledge removes free will. If I know for sure that your god exists and I choose to rebel against it then I am surely guilty and deserving of punishment. As I am allegedly broken simply because I am human, and your god has not revealed itself to me then I don’t see how I am freely choosing to go to hell. I don’t know that hell even exists!

          • len

            We are so immersed in our condition that we are unable to see ourselves as the Creator sees us.
            The only’ natural ‘man to ever walk this Earth was Jesus Christ who perfectly presented man as God created him to be.
            So Jesus Christ is’ the perfect blueprint’.

            Fallen man is represented by the first creation ‘Adam’ who rebelled against His Creator and by default became aligned with spiritual forces opposed to the creator…This is how evil entered the world with all the resulting suffering.We are all born ‘in Adam’ the physical father of all mankind.

            Jesus Christ came to redeem mankind and to free mankind from the position he found himself in because man was unable to free himself being held captive to this fallen nature he inherited.
            Jesus Christ( the Life giving Spirit) gave us the ability to be born from the Spirit not from the physical ‘ flesh’ we inherited.
            So we either choose Christ or remain ‘in Adam ‘ portraying all the characteristics of Adams rebellion, doing our own thing, all things based in self and the furtherance of self.Of course fallen man has the ability to ‘do good’ but this is just the other side of the ‘same coin ‘the two sides are inseparable….
            That is why Jesus said we must be ‘born again’, born of the Spirit, born from above not below.

          • DanJ0

            Presumably if Adam was an actual character then he was fully aware of god despite not having the nature of an angel, contrary to what someone said elsewhere.

          • sarky

            Of course it doesn’t. Because to accept it means denying your faith.

          • Sam

            Dude

            Most informative. From what I can gather from Len and yourself on Christianity :

            Rather than Christianity being based on unconditional love of Jesus, it is based on a strict or highly contingent contract. Jesus died for your sins so one doesn’t have to go to hell : that’s his side of the contractual obligation. But the prid pro quo is one has to love Jesus to get his exemptions from sin. That’s a person’s side of the contract.

            That makes more sense to me than this idea of the Christian god being love or loving , because if he were then as others have noted , it would be blanket forgiveness of people’s sins, without prior conditions attached.

          • carl jacobs

            And how then would justice be satisfied?

          • DanJ0

            Your Christ suffered the punishment, allegedly. I have done many things for which I am profoundly sorry. However, that appears to be not enough. My crime sheet is not a list of bad things I have done, as far as I understand your religion, but having a nature I was born with which is inherently insufficient to be crime free. That is, my having free will and making the right choices is not enough on its own. No, it appears that I have to believe wholeheartedly n your god and, worse, that is not in my power to do either if I understand your particular sect’s interpretation correctly. It must make itself known to me first, and it only does that to a select few. The rest of us can rot in hell, so to speak. Yours is a bleak, cold, horrible religion to my mind.

  • Demon Teddy Bear

    Amen.

  • dannybhoy

    I just want to chuck this video into the mix. It’s about an American Viet Nam vet who died at 74. Intensely private and with no known family, the funeral directors decided to give him a fitting burial with full military honours.

    The response of ordinary peopleis extraordinary, and shows just why the United States of America in spite of all its current problems, is such a great country…

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/12/when-this-vietnam-vet-died-he-had-no-family-to-bury-him-but-check-out-what-happened-on-the-day-of-his-funeral/

    • The Explorer

      Great!

    • Anton

      And let us not forget that, although America is currently badly led and gradually losing its position as undisputed top dog among the world’s nations, it is the US nuclear umbrella which, via the NATO doctrine, kept Britain free during the Cold War; for Western Europe was indefensible from a Soviet invasion by conventional means, and ever since the Iron Curtain fell it has been a matter of documentation that Moscow would have invaded but for that umbrella. Thank you, USA. (And no thanks to CND.)

      • dannybhoy

        I just so agree with you Anton, we owe our American cousins so much in terms of preserving our freedoms.

      • carl jacobs

        gradually losing its position as undisputed top dog among the world’s nations

        There is no way to prevent that from occurring. The “unipolar moment” was caused by the incapacity of American competitors at a specific moment in time and not by some intrinsic American superiority. The world is by nature multi-polar. The natural order is simply re-asserting itself.

      • David

        Yes to that.
        To protect itself strong defences are essential. It is shameful the way that so many of the prosperous european nations lean on the generosity of the US and its nuclear umbrella. OK the US then gets to play “leader”, but nevertheless everyone should be willing to contribute. Two percent for defence seems a miserly amount to me, and few nations in NATO achieve that much.
        I do hope that the US sorts itself out and finds a better political leadership than at present, but then we are badly placed on that one as well. The whole of the west seems to be having a crisis of culture and direction. Let’s hope that we rediscover our core values, which are very much centred on Christianity. The anti-Christian secularists have much to answer for I think.

      • mchawe

        Read Ch28 Deuteronomy and figure it out!
        We are being punished for the great sin of killing our racial brothers and sisters the Germans, in 2 World Wars. We sided with the Bolshevik Jewish butchers of the Soviet Union and dropped incendiary bombs on our cousins 25,000 feet below and called that “bravery” by our “courageous” Bomber Command. Yes USA sided with us in the First WW under its corrupt and blackmailed politician Woodrow Wilson and then again in WW2 FD Roosevelt the Jew who lied to the American people saying that Hitler wanted to conquer the world. Just disgusting the way Americans swallowed those lies (propaganda) being too lazy to discover the truth for themselves! WE, led by Jews attacked Germany both times. It was not the other way round`
        Now we naively worship our TV sets and the Jew Money system above our God. Our churches teach us race mixing. (Fornication, which includes the pursuit of different flesh, is forbidden.) Esau whom God hated, lost his inheritance because he married Canaanite and Hittite wives. He was a Race Mixer; a mess of pottage is a metaphor for Race Mixing. Our churches promote Race Mixing as well as homosexual marriage both of which are an abomination. They teach us that Jesus was a Jew. (Judean does not mean Jew!) If Christ was a Jew would he have said what he said in John Ch8 vs 44??!! The Jews are Edom as they admit themselves. They descend from Esau and Cain.
        The White European Peoples are the descendants of the lost Tribes of Israel and that can be proved 100 different ways. Jesus came ONLY for the Lost Tribes of Israel (Matthew15 vs 24.) He did not come for Negroes, Jews, Chinese, yellow brown or black!
        We are going through a Deuteronomy event right now with the heathen races pouring into our countries previously known as Christendom 7 ways. It is right there in both Testaments.
        Lastly, I do not feel sorry for lonely people. What a waste of your life to feel sorry for yourself. Get off your butt and educate yourself. Throw away your TV set which pollutes your mind. Grow your spirit and do something for your God whose name is Yahweh (YHVH)

        • Anton

          We sided with the Bolshevik Jewish butchers of the Soviet Union

          The two key leaders of the Soviet Union were Lenin, followed by Stalin. Stalin was not Jewish and Lenin was only 1/4 Jewish and not brought up under Jewish tradition.

          USA sided with us in the First WW under its corrupt and blackmailed politician Woodrow Wilson and then again in WW2 FD Roosevelt the Jew who lied to the American people saying that Hitler wanted to conquer the world.

          FDR was no more Jewish than Stalin. The official anthem of the Hitler Youth ran (in translation) “today, Germany is ours and tomorrow, the whole world”. Hitler invaded Russia – the largest step in turning the conflict from a European war to a world war – not vice-versa.

          We are being punished for the great sin of killing our racial brothers and sisters the Germans

          …who sought to invade and enslave us in 1940. We did the right thing: fought back, got rid of their regime and then set them free.

          Frankly I wish that Britain had forged an alliance with Germany against Russia in the decade before the First World War, because Russia was our opponent in Asia and Germany’s opponent in Europe. As part of such a pact Britain could easily have insisted on Germany not invading France, for after winning the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 the Germans had no historic territory they wished to recover in the west. No such alliance happened, because of British determination to keep out of continental alliances, then the naval race initiated by Germany, and Sir Edward Grey’s selective promotion of Francophiles within Whitehall. None of that had anything to do with the Jews.

          Our churches teach us race mixing. (Fornication, which includes the pursuit of different flesh, is forbidden.) Esau whom God hated, lost his inheritance because he married Canaanite and Hittite wives. He was a Race Mixer; a mess of pottage is a metaphor for Race Mixing. Our churches promote Race Mixing

          Perhaps you are confusing distinct things here. I do not approve of our politicians facilitating mass migration into European lands under the banner of multiculturalism, but my reasoning is based on God dividing mankind by language (whence culture) at Babel. My reasoning is not based on race, for mankind is one race, the human race; we are all descended from Adam and Eve. St Paul tells Christians to marry other Christians and cares only about belief, not skin colour. The laws in the Old Testament about Israelites marrying only other Israelites are specific to Israelites, and do not apply to gentile Christians at least.

          They teach us that Jesus was a Jew. (Judean does not mean Jew!) If Christ was a Jew would he have said what he said in John Ch8 vs 44??!! The Jews are Edom as they admit themselves.

          Why then did Jesus’ parents have him circumcised after 8 days (see Luke 2) as is required of Jewish boys? And did you not know that in the Old Testament Obadiah prophesied the complete extermination of the Edomites? How then can the Jews be Edomites?

          The White European Peoples are the descendants of the lost Tribes of Israel and that can be proved 100 different ways. Jesus came ONLY for the Lost Tribes of Israel (Matthew15 vs 24.)

          Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. You interpret that as meaning the lost tribes of Israel, but I take it as meaning those who needed right teaching rather than rabbinic teaching. (Jesus is speaking to some of these false teachers at John 8:44; see the earlier verse 8:13.) Why did Jesus not say “lost tribes” if that is what he meant?

          Please give me, in your own words, your best argument why the Causasian (white) races of Europe are the lost tribes of Israel.

          Get off your butt and educate yourself. Throw away your TV set which pollutes your mind. Grow your spirit and do something for your God whose name is Yahweh (YHVH)

          Actually I ceased to watch TV nearly a decade ago. I too worship Yahuweh, through Yeshua his divine son and messiah. Let us educate each other.

    • IanCad

      A great country indeed. Just make sure though, that their police are not permitted to patrol our airports.

    • David

      Moving.
      Patriotism is alive and well in America, but for how long one fears ?

  • chiefofsinners

    Truly it is not good for man to be alone, but it is worse for man to be separated from God.
    Jesus was more alone than we will ever know when on the cross He cried ‘why have you forsaken me?’ But the joy set before Him was that He would restore the fellowship broken by sin.