Welby Farage
European Union

EU immigration: Farage and Welby clash over "legitimising racism"

 

During his appearance before the Home Affairs Select Committee, the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby insisted he was not supporting either side in the EU Referendum campaign. Well, for those who heave ears…

It wasn’t so much a Farage-Welby ‘clash’, not least because the Ukip leader said live on TV: “I’m not going to stand and attack the Archbishop of Canterbury, but he would have done better to read what I actually said…” The clashing was all the Archbishop’s: Nigel Farage’s response was a reasonable exhortation for the Archbishop to study the primary source. But the headlines following the first appearance of an archbishop of Canterbury before a parliamentary select committee were dominated by Justin Welby ‘s criticism. Nigel Farage was accused of “legitimising racism” for suggesting that by remaining in the EU we make the risk of assaults like those in Cologne on New Year’s Eve more likely in the future. The Archbishop accused the Ukip leader of “accentuating fear for political gain”.

The headlines could (and perhaps should) have been concerned with the use and abuse of fear. After all, if “accentuating fear for political gain” is “absolutely inexcusable” (the Archbishop’s words), why should one excuse the Cameron-Osborne axis of ‘Project Fear’ which is manifestly trying to scare the bejesus out of everyone in order to bolster the Remain campaign? As Lord Carey observed, the pervasive Remain spin is that Brexit “will bring about the coming of the four horsemen of the apocalypse”. Is the ‘Stronger In’ campaign of terror not also absolutely inexcusable?

Of course, the Archbishop of Canterbury wouldn’t dream of attacking the leader of a main political party – let alone the Prime Minister – during an election campaign, lest he may influence public opinion and affect the outcome of the election. But Nigel Farage is fair game – especially when he’s due to debate the Prime Minister live on TV that night – and influencing the EU Referendum toward a Remain outcome is a moral, righteous and enlightened thing to do, even if it means embroidering a bit of fear about the Ukip leader.  But if fear is the Archbishop’s overriding pastoral concern, it might be considered that David Cameron and George Osborne have fanned a few more flames and stoked a few more fires than Nigel Farage has done during in this campaign. It was the purposeful design from the outset, but not a word from the church about that.

But let us consider what Nigel Farage actually said, which is easy, because it was written in the Sunday Telegraph:

“The nuclear bomb this time would be about Cologne,” he told the Telegraph. Women may be at a particular risk from the “cultural” differences between British society and migrants, after gangs of migrant men allegedly launched a mass sexual attack against hundreds of women in Germany last New Year’s Eve, he said.

“There are some very big cultural issues,” he said. Asked whether mass sex attacks on the scale of Cologne could happen in Britain, Mr Farage replied: “It depends if they get EU passports. It depends if we vote for Brexit or not. It is an issue.”

He doesn’t mention race or ethnicity: his concern is EU immigration and the “big cultural issues”, such as the one which manifests itself in most Muslim-dominated countries as sex discrimination, chauvinism or female objectification. If in one night and in one location there are 500 criminal complaints, of which 200 are concerned with Arab and North African immigrants perpetrating violent sexual assaults on German women, is it ‘racist’ to say so? If a country takes in more than a million refugees, and their men become immediately responsible for a disproportionate number of violent sexual assaults against native women, is it ‘racist’ to point out that this is a cultural clash and, logically, one that is likely to be replicated wherever there is a similar approach to uncontrolled mass immigration? This isn’t only the German experience: consider Sweden:

Jacob Ekström is a policeman. He is tired of keeping silent about the terrible knowledge he has about developments in Sweden. Large residential areas are developing into enclaves where the authorities are sidelined. These areas are controlled by large family clans that have formed gangs committing extensive crime…

The extract is useful because the testimony is that of a policeman, who isn’t likely to be making his comments for political gain. It was the German State Interior Minister Ralf Jaeger who said that migrants were almost exclusively responsible for the attacks on women in Cologne on New Year’s Eve. Is it ‘racist’ to say so? Why should the assumption be one of political gain? Why is it ‘racist’ to sound the alarm and warn Britain that continuing the EU policy of uncontrolled mass immigration might become a cause of inter-cultural brawls and violent sexual assaults on women? Why is it ‘racist’ to state quite reasonably that if you give EU passports to a million immigrants, some of whom have a particularly primitive view of women, a few hundred of them are likely to perpetrate the same sort of sexual violence on the women in those countries to which these new passports permit freedom of movement?

Even if you instinctively refute causality, it does not make the judgment itself ‘racist’. When churchmen such as Cardinal Reinhard Marx, Archbishop of Munich and Freising and President of the German Conference of Catholic Bishops, decry the “new forms of violence and especially the inhumane treatment of women”, he’s not referring to Teutonic gynocentric innovations: the problem he highlights is that of mass immigration, and specifically the alien cultural attitudes of many Arab and North African men toward white women. Have we not seen it ourselves in Rotherham, Oxford and Sheffield? Is it ‘racist’ to point out that the paedophiles and child-groomers were predominantly British-Pakistani Muslim men who considered their white victims to be “easy meat“? Is it ‘racist’ to point out that cultural attitudes differ and collide?

When you watch the exchange between the Archbishop of Canterbury and Keith Vaz, Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, there is a feeling of the Archbishop being lured into an inescapable judgment. He doesn’t have Nigel Farage’s words in front of him: indeed, he states quite specifically later that he isn’t aware of some of the comments Mr Farage had made. All he has is the Vaz lens of interpretation, and the Chairman’s coercive leading to the judgment of ‘racism’

Only a few months ago, Justin Welby was insisting that fears about immigration were not necessarily racist (see BBC, Daily Mail, Independent). “There is a tendency to say ‘those people are racist’, which is just outrageous, absolutely outrageous”, the Archbishop told the House Magazine. “Fear is a valid emotion at a time of such colossal crisis. This is one of the greatest movements of people in human history. Just enormous. And to be anxious about that is very reasonable.” This distinction prefaced the whole Select Committee interrogation. “We never serve ourselves well by refusing to look facts in the face,” the Archbishop said, as he was reminded that he himself had faced some criticism for his comments. But then Mr Vaz weaves his web:

Indeed, but you were criticised when you raised those issues because immigration is that kind of subject. Whenever you talk about immigration, whether it is in or out of context, people will accuse somebody of being either a racist or not a racist. Do you think there is a line between those who have genuine concerns about it and those who use the immigration issue for party political purposes as part of a campaign of fear? I am referring in particular to the comments of the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, who said over the weekend that our staying in the European Union could lead to sexual attacks like those we saw in Cologne. That is exactly what he said. I would regard those comments as racist, as would a lot of people. What is your take on what he has said?

The interrogative is preceded by a gentle coaxing around the general sensitivity of the topic and the unavoidable slur of ‘racism’ it usually attracts. It is designed to elicit nods and murmurs of assent, and the Archbishop obliges. But then comes the manipulative vivisection: note how “genuine concerns” cannot be expressed by politicians. Granted, Mr Vaz does not say all politicians, but what politician is not always vulnerable to the allegation of acting for party political advantage? Indeed, what a rare politician it is who is not continually reflexively doing so. And note, also, how the Committee Chairman does not merely ask a neutral, open question about what the Archbishop thinks about what Mr Farage said, but leads him toward a judgment: “I would regard those comments as racist, as would a lot of people.” How to respond? Does the Archbishop sound a note of jarring dissonance and immediately take issue with Mr Vaz and “a lot of people”? His instinct is toward fraternal accord: his spirit spontaneously inclines toward peace and reconciliation. The leader of Ukip is being accused of sowing division and instilling fear (and note it isn’t a direct quotation: there is no mention of ‘culture’), and the Archbishop of Canterbury has no courteous option but to assent:

Justin Welby: I would agree with you. That is an inexcusable pandering to people’s worries and prejudices. That is giving legitimisation to racism, which I have seen in parishes in which I have served and which has led to attacks on people in those parishes. We cannot legitimise that. As I said, fear is a pastoral issue. You deal with it by recognising it, and by standing alongside and providing answers to it. What that is is accentuating fear for political gain, and that is absolutely inexcusable.

But this is a touch too waffly for Mr Vaz, who, mindful of Nigel Farage’s appearance on live TV that evening and very eager to feed a feisty (preferably female and black) audience member a question to help cement the necessary headline, wants the Farage-racist juxtaposition made explicit:

Chair: So you would utterly condemn the comments made by Nigel Farage.

Justin Welby: Without hesitation.

Chair: Thank you.

Thank you, indeed. As Keith Vaz said: “Whenever you talk about immigration, whether it is in or out of context, people will accuse somebody of being either a racist or not a racist.” Out of context, the slur is almost inevitable. Out of context, omitting all mention of nuanced distinctions and voiced by the leader of Ukip, the slur is inescapable. Funny, isn’t it, how bishops can inculcate the fear and loathing of antithetical politicians for their own dreams of Christendom.

  • Albert

    Why is it ‘racist’ to state quite reasonably

    Because it is easier to call it racism than to address the concern.

    This whole referendum is about intellectual laziness.

  • Dreadnaught

    The ‘feisty’ women in the audience have been identified as known left-wing agitators with regulation cloth ears when it came to listening to Farage’s responses. I am sick of the media pandering to the lefts ‘equality’ agenda in demonising plain speaking white males as social pariahs – then there’s Welby.

    • Albert

      It was particularly poorly chaired. Farage was misrepresented, and was then shouted over while he tried to give a correction. The chair should have intervened.

      • Dreadnaught

        I’ve seen plenty of debates in the US that were conducted along the lines of university debating societies under a strict code of conduct. Our TV performances leave more questions than answers I think because we have been left with nothing more than producers brought upon ‘reality show’ concepts.
        Having just seen the Vote Leave effort at 7pm I am despairing at the ineptitude of the PR lobby that produced it. I feel they have shot themselves in the foot with such a crude effort that implied that the NHS will be the main beneficiary of held-over contributions.
        No party has ention the 2 year transition period, when very little difference will be apparent at ground level.
        As for managing our own affairs there will have to be drastic measures taken if this country is to shape up.
        Italy for instance has a Coast Guard fleet of hundreds of cutters patrolling their marine border – we, an island nation that once ‘ruled the waves’ – have six.
        What a pathetic outfit we are.

      • Little Black Censored

        How can a chair intervene – or do anything at all?

  • The Explorer

    From what I’ve read of the ‘Qur’an’, it’s quite strict about which women males can have sex with. Only your wives: or those whom your right hand possess. (23: 5-6). Women already married are off limits: unless they are those whom your right hand possess. (4:24). How do you get to possess these extra women? Spoils of war. If you have taken a woman as a slave, it does not matter if she was previously married or not.
    Much of that may be of purely historical interest, and only groups like ISIS seek to put it into literal practice with their slave markets for captured Yazidi and Christian women. But the spirit behind it, and the attitude towards women that it conveys, seems to linger behind incidents like Cologne and Rotherham.

  • len

    When secularists decided to destroy our Judeo/Christian foundations they put in place their own version of ‘morality’ Political Correctness’ which is Orwells ‘Newspeak” a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime such as freedom, self-expression, individuality, and peace.'(Orwell 1984)
    We are also told to be’ non judgemental’ so in effect what our government wants is a nation of zombies unable to think for themselves , unable to discern what is right and what is wrong, in fact putty in their masters hands.’The Leader’ will think for the masses and scare them into submission if they look like straying far from what the Party esteems is ‘the right decision.’…
    There are those who see our western society as rich but incredibly stupid who have set up a system that cannot defend itself because it is unable to discern truth anymore because it has sold out truth for political Correctness.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    The Oxford Dictionary defines racism as:

    “The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:”

    Note the word “superior”. Having a sense of racial superiority is quite different from having an awareness of significant and important cultural differences between groups of people which make their values and behaviour incompatible with each other and therefore, will ultimately, be damaging to each other. Nigel Farage has not used words that proclaim white people to be superior to black people or any other skin colour. He has however, pointed out serious cultural issues which can become a cause of social unrest. The knee-jerk accusations of racism are just another way of attacking anybody who raises the immigration issue. The Archbishop would do well study Farage’s comments properly, and to take a look at the Oxford Dictionary too.

  • David

    It would appear that the Archbishop may have lowered his guard and unwittingly allowed himself to be used as a tool in political inter-party point scoring of the very worst kind. Vaz appears to be using a technique, which an (ethical)) barrister would regard as “leading” questions or “leading the witness”; this is an unacceptable device in cross examining witnesses to elucidate evidence, which here takes the form of opinion.
    I would never accuse Welby of bering naive, but clearly he is not being sufficiently wary and needs to exercise far greater caution in how he answers questions.
    What a cesspit British politics can become.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      David, you’re being quite generous to Welby. Either he was duped into saying what he said or he actually believes it. Either way, it is a poor show from the head of the Anglican Church. I think many people could have found a better way to reply to Vaz’s question. Even a “politicians answer” would have been better.

      • David

        I agree with your analysis of my comments : –
        1. Generous, 2. Poor show, and 3. Majority could do better.
        Increasingly I see Welby as a man who tries to do good, but is all too often, merely an instrument of the post-modern, relativist, liberal establishment.
        The job is of course impossible. However far more capable people have been rejected because they were unacceptable to the anti-Christian establishment who will only promote compliant and “nice” Bishops.
        Anglicanism will survive in this country despite, not because of, the hierarchy. Ministers who preach the gospel fill their churches.

  • Coniston

    The former Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, described the likely collapse of Western civilisation in an interview with the Telegraph.
    http://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/lord-sacks-demographic-decline-heralds-fall-of-west/18193

  • Inspector General

    There are those of us who are interested in behavioural patterns which vary among the races (…wait for it, Carl…) not from any sense of them being born inferior, but simply acquired by them (as they come to their majority) after being exposed to their parents culture, good or bad – because yes, it is possible to have a worthless culture, as the NAZIs showed us. (And the Indonesian head hunters too…)

    It is a valuable science, albeit not appreciated by everyone, and of benefit to us all, this examination. It keeps us safe, both as individuals and as a population. For example, was it not the teenage sons and nephews of the ISIS that cut the heads off those dozen or so orange jump suited prisoners in the desert. We should not be surprised at all over that. Most fathers would be eager to school their sons in the skills of life they themselves use, and which they no doubt inherited from their own father, and that is what happened. Let’s just hope that those young men who have dutifully killed for Islam don’t end up as ‘asylum seekers’ over here to further the work of Allah as they have been shown how.

    So, it is all the more surprising that in this age of ‘enlightenment’ and reasoning based on observation (and not presumption as was much the case in the past) that we still have Welbys conducting themselves like petulant schoolgirls fearing they won’t be getting their own way after all, when the suitability of North African male youth in Europe in very large numbers is questioned.

    And Now Some Christianity…
    Not bearing false witness is one of your daily ten, Mr Welby, and you should seek forgiveness from the person you trespassed against. A full retraction and your heartfelt regret over the wrong you committed would be in order. Would it not, sir!

    The Blessing…
    Right then Carl. The Inspector thanks you for allowing him to finish. Off you go then, as you are quite probably (based on previous observations of your own behaviour) mightily annoyed at this very moment…and wish to close down the discussion as swiftly as possible, as Welby himself was hoping to do to Farage…

    • So, just to be clear, Inspector, the difference between groups is not to do with one ‘race’ having higher/lower degrees of inherited intelligence, or inherent predispositions to violence or crime, something you’ve previously claimed, but is down to culture? It’s not ‘race’; it’s culture? Not nature, it’s nurture?

      • Inspector General

        Well Jack. Not quite. Intelligence is rather like muscle. If you need it, it will increase in size. But for peoples who prefer to live hand to mouth, it won’t. Len has given you a link above – the story next to the one he was highlighting was about North Africans burning their refuge down because they’d missed breakfast. No one had thought to give them an early morning call during Ramadan so they could eat while it was still dark. Fancy that, burning your own home down!

        • “Intelligence is rather like muscle. If you need it, it will increase in size.”

          Hmm … don’t be coy, Inspector. Nature or nurture? Race or culture?

          • Inspector General

            One used to say ‘off you go now and bother DanJ0’ at these junctures but one notes he has the good sense to avoid you these days…

          • Just more hot air from you then, Inspector.

          • Inspector General

            Unsure what you are getting out of this Jack. Perhaps siding with Welby on this one…

          • Just exploring your views on race and culture, Inspector. Something you don’t want to be clear about. Why is that?

          • Inspector General

            Ah! The Inspector knows what it is. Anyway, enjoy, for here it is once again, and you just love to see it in print…

            “When the same behaviour is passed down from one generation to the next, and we are talking tens, hundreds of generations, the behaviour becomes an instinct. To wit, present at birth and no need to be absorbed by the child. The real ‘original sin’ then…activity that needs no conscious effort on the part of the individual”

          • Hmm … but behaviour doesn’t morph magically into the genes of groups, Inspector. Take language. It’s not genetics (or ‘instinct) that results in language. It’s culture.

        • Royinsouthwest

          I was tempted to suggest that the people who burnt their home down were really inspired by reading Charles Lamb’s story about how the Chinese discovered how to roast pork, “A Dissertation upon Roast Pig” but on second thoughts they are not the sort of people who would want to eat pork, gammon or bacon are they?

          https://archive.org/details/adissertationup00lambgoog

      • Martin

        HJ

        Why do you think that ‘races’ exist?

        • Jack doesn’t think ‘races’ exist. Nations and peoples exist. We are all one race.

          The concept of “race” is biological, not biblical. There is no mention of different races, as such, in the bible, nor even of the very concept of a “race.” There is no theological meaning to the term. It is arbitrary and was invented by man.

          • carl jacobs

            But I thought you accepted evolution.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            One does not have to deny evolutionary theory to criticize the abomination that the idea of “race” has become.

            In a chapter, The Future of Democracy, G.K.Chesterton wrote:

            The facts show that, in this problem of the Old South, the eighteenth century was more liberal than the nineteenth century. There was more sympathy for the negro in the school of Jefferson than in the school of Jefferson Davis. Jefferson, in the dark estate of his simple Deism, said the sight of slavery in his country made him tremble, remembering that God is just. His fellow Southerners, after a century of the world’s advance, said that slavery in itself was good, when they did not go farther and say that negroes in themselves were bad. And they were supported in this by the great and growing modern suspicion that nature is unjust. Difficulties seemed inevitably to delay justice, to the mind of Jefferson; but so they did to the mind of Lincoln. But that the slave was human and the servitude inhuman—that was, if anything, clearer to Jefferson than to Lincoln. The fact is that the utter separation and subordination of the black like a beast was a progress; it was a growth of nineteenth-century enlightenment and experiment; a triumph of science over superstition. It was ‘the way the world was going,’ as Matthew Arnold reverentially remarked in some connection; perhaps as part of a definition of God. Anyhow, it was not Jefferson’s definition of God. He fancied, in his far-off patriarchal way, a Father who had made all men brothers; and brutally unbrotherly as was the practice, such democratical Deists never dreamed of denying the theory. It was not until the scientific sophistries began that brotherhood was really disputed. Gobineau, who began most of the modern talk about the superiority and inferiority of racial stocks, was seized upon eagerly by the less generous of the slave-owners and trumpeted as a new truth of science and a new defence of slavery. It was not really until the dawn of Darwinism, when all our social relations began to smell of the monkey-house, that men thought of the barbarian as only a first and the baboon as a second cousin. The full servile philosophy has been a modern and even a recent thing; made in an age whose invisible deity was the Missing Link. The Missing Link was a true metaphor in more ways than one; and most of all in its suggestion of a chain.

          • carl jacobs

            I don’t see how you avoid the conclusion unless you assume that evolutionary change must be uniformly distributed across the population. And why would that be? Other than the fact that evolutionists would prefer it that way so they don’t have to answer embarrassing questions. Steven J Gould once postulated that evolution occurs rapidly in isolated populations. He did so to explain the lack of transitionals in the fossil record. So, yes, I could see evolutionary theory demanding some kind of differentiation that correlates with race.

            Equality is a divine concept. It proceeds from moral equidistant before God. There is no natural concept of equality. It cannot emerge from a process of differentiation through genetic change. That differentiation of necessity must produce inequality. And then race suddenly takes on a whole new meaning.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            Are you like that Muhammad Ali fellow who did not approve of racial mixing?

            Who Whitewashed Muhammad Ali?

          • carl jacobs

            However did you arrive at that conclusion from what I wrote. You obviously have mistaken me for the Inspector. I’m the one who principally challenges his silly racial ideas. That’s why he made a preemptive reference to me on this subthread.

            I reject evolution completely and consider man invariant. I agree with Jack that race is an arbitrary grouping that has no significant moral meaning. If a black man wants to marry a white woman, was is that to me? May they be fruitful and multiply.

          • Inspector General

            Actually, the Inspector has no opinion on mixed race marriages. People are free to take up with who they want.

          • “Racial” differences are relatively recent and limiyed mostly to superficial morphological differences. The hard-wiring for hominid intelligence and behaviour was established much earlier and is unaffected, as all human groups are, by the fact that they’re around, equally capable of adaptation.

          • Inspector General

            Unfortunately Avi, you have not taken into account the ever failing populations of sub Saharan Africa. There is a prima facie argument that such hard wiring etc for the non black African only occurred AFTER the early migrants had left Africa and interbred with Homo Neanderthal…

          • Occam’s razor; geography and environmental degradation alone can explain Africa’s woes, Inspector. Not to mention odd EU policies of preventing Africans from improving agriculture by growing and selling GMO crops or accessing huge energy reserves right under their feet. Records of past African state-level civilizations and breathtaking technological accomplishments even by hunter-gatherers, show that even under difficult circumstances, people everywhere respond with the same capacity for ingenuity…and can fail in similar ways when culture lag and physical circumstances act against their ability to change and adapt.

            The Neanderthal population was much too small…numbering probably no more than two thousand individuals in the European peninsula…and was overwhelmed by the in-flow of homo sapiens groups streaming out of Africa into Europe and Asia, which is why Neanderthal genes represent no more than 1-4% of the non-African DNA in modern populations. If the hypothesis is that the Neanderthal contribution somehow made a qualitative difference to modern human intelligence or culture, no quantitative analysis supports it.

            Another thing to remember is that “white” populations only appeared recently, probably as recently as 6000-7000 years ago in the Baltic lands and with the rise of agriculture and as a successful mutation in response to vitamin D deficient diets in a warm, but over-cast environment.

          • Inspector General

            In the 1980s and 90s, Avi, it was the done thing for black university professors from the USA to have extended vacations in Africa with their family. The reason – they were hoping to find evidence of a superior way of living that was cruelly obliterated by the European who installed their lesser system on the tribes. The books they were hoping would result from this evidence were never written…

          • O, there were a plenty of books written by such…pseudohistorical pap laying claim to this and that, including Egyptian and Greek civilizations, but back then universities were a touch more sensible than they are now and declined publication under their imprimatur.

            There were numerous empires equal to European kingdoms in many respects, but they declined long ago and without enduring remains and written records, and with the arrival of all-consuming Islam, they slipped into obscurity just as the illiterate Northern European pagan cultures did with the spread of Christianity.

            The problem is in appplying the benchmarks of recent and current technological achievement and civil instititutions, which are cumulative in nature, when evaluating unfamiliar technologies and societies. These equal opportunity employment “savants” you refer to, failed to highlight the real marvels of technology, animal husbandry and social structures because such take years of painstaking research into a distant past and because, ironically, they were obsessed with the very Eurocentrism the claimed to decry. Thus, they looked for the sensational, bombastic and familiar, and unable to find it, concocted silly chauvinistic fables.

          • Inspector General

            We had a presenter of Somali origin on a programme about Great Zimbabwe. He was adamant the brick making technology was not brought in. That’s an African invention he insisted, bless him…

          • Anatolia, Jericho, Iraq and Mohenjo Daro bricks all predate Zimbabwean builders, of course, and I would bet unmentionable body parts that they too picked up the craft from even older cultures they absorbed. He may have meant that Africans independently developed the brick, just as most other cultures did (it makes sense in wood snd stone-poor places and all lifs like to mess around with lumps of clay) and I believe that he would have been right. If he claimed that the technogy emerged first and only in Africa, as Afrocentrists are wont to do with anything, radiated out and presumably backwards in time somehow to other cultures…in a process of diffusion, which is how many mistakenly think all inventions spread… he would be a silly crank, of course.

          • Inspector General

            The technology didn’t catch on in Africa, wherever it came from, and the place was eventually abandoned. No doubt in favour of mud huts…

          • Anna055

            You mean like the cob cottages we have in Devon…how very primitive!

          • Great Zimbabwe declined from a disruption to its gold trade and the cattle-based economy was unable to sustain the population, but its pottery and stone masonry technologies travelled south, where they were adopted by other peoples until they too went into a decline.

            African geography did not allow for urbanization without advanced technology and efficient energy sources; few rivers and scarce arable land, except in the south, which was underpopulated. Its trade routes were for long time held by Muslims and were broken only by the maritime powers of Europe and America.

            There is no guarantee that technology must progress or even that it will be transferred; Europe lost many Roman technologies, plunged into poverty and ignorance and then recovered, thanks mostly to its plentiful rivers and rich soils and its ideal geographic position for trade travel. Let us not even attempt to contemplate, though, where we would be without a few dollops of sheer luck, such as Genghis Khan’s death just before the Mongol’s conquest of the continent.

            I say then, Inspector, the evidence is overwhelming that nurture trumps nature in our unique species’ case. This is how all humans seem to operate; since the first agrarians, not long after the last Ice Age 11 thousand years ago, a mere heart-beat in human history, we have gone between seeming stpidity and brilliance, back and forth, to the irregular beat of environment, circumstance and often random chance. And even if we ascribe all to culture, given the tiny “sample” of human history we myopically crow about, it’s too early to guess which culture may house, unnoticed, some crucial advantage to the most unlikely to succeed peoples in the world! Not to mention what God might want to do with us, of course….

          • Inspector General

            You certainly know your stuff, Avi, and agreed, we don’t know what is coming next…

          • Pah! Merely a benign (so far) form of madness manifesting itself as a frenzied rummaging for disjointed and economically useless factoids, if you were to ask my wife, Inspector. We don’t know what’s coming and given the insanity that abounds lately, I susoect we’re better off if we don’t.

          • PS: When ever I,m in the mood to be ignored or have my thoughts torn apart by the real scholars out there, I will pen a book on the real sources of modernity; sea coal, the potato and sugar. Coal which saved a de-forested Europe from falling back into barbarism and spurred metallurgy snd chemistry; the potato which saved the North from famines and allowed for greater and urbanized populations and sugar, which fuelled millions in factories with what in our age we dare call “empty” calories. So much for the legendary effects of gunpowder, the printing press and such Chinese baubles!

          • Jack said “evolutionism”. “Evolutionism,” (or “Darwinism”) is a political, pseudoscientific ideology, distinct from empirically based evolution and natural selection theories. As different as homeopathy and modern medicine.

            This confusion is responsible for half of the arguments. The other half is the assumption that evolution theory addresses origins of the universe and life.

          • Martin

            HJ

            Absolutely.

    • carl jacobs

      but simply acquired by them (as they come to their majority) after being exposed to their parents culture, good or bad

      That’s actually an improvement for you, Inspector. It’s not exactly what you would call consistent with your previous statements, so I can only conclude that you have grown in understanding. You have changed if only by a small increment. This is moderately encouraging.

      • Inspector General

        You do yourself a disservice, Carl. That the Inspector’s thoughts on this sensitive subject has received a better reception from you on this occasion is entirely to your credit…

    • You”re click-bait for Carl, Inspector. I thinks he has an app to alert him when you post. Good weekend to ya!

      • Inspector General

        Greetings Avi. Yes, one puts his hands up and confesses he was having some fun with the musty fellow. Regards to you and yours…

        • carl jacobs

          Musty? MUSTY!?

          • Inspector General

            Well, like an old hymnbook left under the stairs in a English medieval church…

          • carl jacobs

            Ya know. It’s a certain fact that old hymn books are better.

          • Inspector General

            Indubitably, old chap.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Does the Archbishop think that:

    1) The sexual assaults in Cologne and other German cities did not happen?

    OR

    2) Does he think that we should pretend that they did not happen?

    If the first is the correct answer then he is an irresponsible idiot who has not made any effort to look into the matter. If the second is the correct answer then he is defending a policy based on lies, and we all know who the Father of Lies is.

    Are the people living in Britain (whether British by origin or by naturalisation) so much better than the people living in Germany that what happened there could not happen here? Or are our police so much better than Germany’s that they would immediately nip any problems in the bud?

    We know for a fact that the answers to those questions is “No”! The fact that large scale sexual abuse was permitted in Rotherham and other English cities for the best part of two decades proves that neither the people living there nor the police in those areas are in the slightest way superior to the German immigrants and police.

    Has the Archbishop of Canterbury, or any other very senior CoE official ever publicly condemned the perpetrators of the events in Rotherham etc. and their enablers? If not, then why not? Too busy currying favour with the Guardian and the BBC perhaps.

    The Archbishop should issue a public apology to Nigel Farage and a public condemnation of the people who deliberately turned a blind eye to the events in Rotherham etc. and the people, including those in the media, who routinely use accusations of “racism” to try and silence criticism.

  • len

    One day (soon hopefully) the true extent of crime being perpetrated by migrants from the Middle East will be revealed but there seems to be a cover up going on at the moment by the Media…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3378985/Police-Germany-covering-extent-migrant-crime-claim-Bild-country-revealed-taken-1-1-MILLION-people-2015.html

    • Inspector General

      One of the many benefits of Brexit is that North Africans will no longer be of any concern to us. Just as muslims kidnapping schoolgirls in Africa is of no concern to us…

      • Royinsouthwest

        It didn’t happen when the evil imperialists, i.e. we British, ruled Nigeria.

        • Inspector General

          The Kings African Rifles would have tracked them down and put the perpetrators to death. Splendid outfit apparently. The best of the black natives led by British Officers…

  • Perhaps Welby would have been more sympathetic to Farage’s argument if the latter had mentioned that Christians in German refugee centres are being ‘harassed, insulted and attacked’ by Muslims. A preacher asks if the ‘very last Christian needs to be attacked’ before the authorities, of church and state, admit the problem.

    The C of E having put all its eggs in the diversity basket—‘Scripture…does not support the…notion of separate development involving the segregation of people belonging to different tribes, nations or religions’ [paragraph 2 here]—will it, too, wait until the very last Christian has been attacked before begging forgiveness for its betrayal of the British?

    • Inspector General

      One is rather concerned that our Jewish population in the UK is at particular risk from refugees…

      • @ IG—I possess only a limited amount of concern, just enough for my own folk. It appears to be a common characteristic: ‘people are less likely to feel connected to people outside their own ethnic groups’.

        • Royinsouthwest

          As someone once asked, “who is my neighbour?”

        • Inspector General

          Yes. One does feel our Jewish types are part of the family in the UK, which is something the North African will never be, or indeed, ever accept as his fate….not while we remain infidels….

          • @ IG—Yes, to the Muslims we are kuffar, to the Jews we are goyim. Neither term is complimentary.

          • Inspector General

            Whatever. Anyway, Jews and Arabs don’t mix and should be kept apart. For Arabs, the other side of the English Channel is sufficient distance for that…

          • Goy!

          • dannybhoy

            Evening Avi and Shabbath Shalom to you and your family. Goyim simply means non Jewish nations…

            http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

          • Shabbat shalom and chag Shavuot Danny! Pshhhh, don’t disappoint Johnny.Ya sure yer not a Yid? Maybe I should lay on some kiruv/missionary work on you and to see how you bare up under the mohel. Anyhoo, just got in from a 14 hour drive, so good weekend ya’all! (2 days in Alabama will change your accent)

          • dannybhoy

            I would happily be a Yid if I could keep my Messiah… :0)

          • Pubcrawler

            I’m glad to be goy: I get my Messiah, as well as bacon, steak au poivre, sausage & mash, ham & cheese sarnies, pork scratchings etc. Oh and I get to keep my foreskin. 🙂

          • dannybhoy

            “Oh and I get to keep my foreskin. :)”
            Too much information!

          • Uncle Brian

            … and to see how you bare up under the mohel. “Bare up,” Avi? Deliberate pun or Freudian slip?

          • Uncle Brian

            We’re in good company, Avi. Glil ha-goyim, Galilee of the goys, Isaiah 8:23 (or 9:1 in some translations).

            Shabbat shalom!

          • Whoa! These are my last few secular hours until shabbat and 2 dayss of shavuot! Shabbat shalom and good weekend!

          • Uncle Brian

            Sof shevuah tov, Avi!

  • Martin

    It seems to me, both from the account above and the general behaviour of the AoC, that Welby is so busy trying to be a peacemaker that he is failing to hunger and thirst after righteousness. Perhaps he needs to be reminded that light has no fellowship with darkness. You cannot make peace between good and evil, between those who love God and the World.

  • preacher

    Quite odd really. In Communist China, the Church is allowed to exist if it meets the Government’s requirements of registration of members & toeing the party line. Funds are even provided by the state to assist the building of mega Churches.
    Sound familiar ? When the Church becomes a tool of the State, it changes it’s love & loyalty from God to men, or to put it another way ” The salt loses it’s saltiness & is useless ” – it neither acts as a preservative, a healing medium or a flavouring.

    To make matters even worse, we now have John Major who signed us up to the E.U, & ” Weapons of Mass Destruction ” Tony Blair who couldn’t differentiate between a tin of tuna & a nuclear warhead rattling around Ireland for the ‘ remain ‘ club making predictions about what will happen if we leave, You couldn’t make it up. No one with any sense would buy a push bike off of either of them.

    What a mess ! Well perhaps the common sense of the British people will prevail & we might even see a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit when we rid ourselves of weak prelates & dodgy leaders.

  • chiefofsinners

    If only we had an infallible leader, like those Catholics.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      Or at least an unflappable one.

      • preacher

        Hi Brother. See above.

    • preacher

      We do chief ! but he’s not a chap living in Rome.

  • chiefofsinners

    Does anyone know why it is Keith Vaz’s job to ask the Archbishop of Canterbury for his opinion on the comments of Nigel Farage?

    • dannybhoy

      Yeah. It’s because the CofE is a fully paid up member of the State. Equal Opportunities and Human Rights Legislation.
      So our AofC is beholden not to the King of Kings, but the State.

      • preacher

        Well said danny, you make my point perfectly.

        • dannybhoy

          Thank you sir. It gives me no pleasure, and my wife and I as members of our local parish church and serving on its PCC are asking the Lord Jesus what He wants us to do.
          Just to illustrate the Alice in Wonderland theme park we inhabit, here’s a picture of our Bishop on the occasion of the 1000th anniversary of St Walstan of Norfolk…
          http://staff.diocesan.co.uk/gallery_images/bishop-graham-photo-credit-rc-diocese-of-east-anglia-(13).jpg
          What’s that, you’ve never heard of him?

          • Old Nick

            Lovely picture of a happy man. Thank you

          • Uncle Brian

            Graham James, the bishop shown in your picture, gave an hour-long lecture a couple of months ago at the University of East Anglia under the title, “More Catholic than the Pope”: The encounter of Anglo Catholicism with the Papacy and the revival of a Norfolk shrine.
            Here it is on YouTube but my hearing isn’t good enough for me to follow it properly. I’d read it if the text was available online, but apparently it isn’t.

          • Pubcrawler

            At my father’s (very) Anglo-Catholic funeral some years ago my Catholic uncle remarked that it was ‘more Catholic than the Catholics’. Having now been to said uncle’s own (Catholic) funeral a few weeks ago, I can see just how much.

          • Uncle Brian

            That’s very interesting, Pubcrawler. Thank you for that. As I said just now in my reply to Danny, I’ve never actually met an Anglo-Catholic face to face, so that my impressions of them are really only guesswork. Something else I think I’ve noticed in recent years is that some Anglo-Catholic clergy seem to have gone overboard on liberation theology, though at this distance I have no way of telling whether they’re in the mainstream of Anglo-Catholicism or just an insignificant minority.

          • Pubcrawler

            Can’t help you there, I’m afraid, UB. I’m just an ordinary traditional Anglican (with inclinations towards Orthodoxy), keeping his head down and bumbling along the Way as best he can.

          • dannybhoy

            Erm UNCLE BRIAN!!
            (joke)
            I got as far as 19mins and 16 seconds before I lost interest I’m afraid.
            I have forgotten what persuasion of Christianity you are, and I never seek to ridicule another man’s understanding of the faith. (Witness the sometimes protracted conversations between myself and brother Martin..!
            The Bishop is a very nice man. I was diocesan rep for our church for four years, so heard him quite regularly.
            As I understand it, at it’s heart Anglicanism is an estranged daughter of the Roman Catholic church, brought into being for less than noble purposes, and over time it has developed various groupings including (thankfully), an evangelical wing.
            I am interested in politics -but not church politics. Christianity is about spiritual life and growth, not manipulations or dealings or ambitions of any kind.

          • Uncle Brian

            Danny, I’m a (Roman) Catholic. I was born and brought up in the C of E but jumped ship a good few years ago now. I frankly tend to be a bit suspicious of Anglo-Catholics, though I’ve never met one face to face to be able to ask him questions about it. I wasn’t thinking about what you call “manipulations or dealings or ambitions”, because I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that office politics is probably much the same in all the churches. It’s just that I’ve always had the impression that Anglo-Catholics try too hard to be two things at once, and end up being neither fully one thing nor the other.

          • dannybhoy

            Sorry UB, I remember now that you shared your background with us some time ago.
            “because I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that office politics is probably much the same in all the churches.”
            Well to a degree it probably is as we’re all less than perfect, but if you’ve been brought up in a church which was modelled on the Acts version, with elders forming an oversight and devout and kindly men who encouraged the congregation towards discipleship and holy living, that’s as ‘political’ as it got. The hierarchy and bureaucracy and well meaning ‘bumbledom’ I meet in Anglican circles depresses my spirit.

      • chiefofsinners

        Ah yes, we need Mike Ashley and his new company ‘Religion Direct’.

      • len

        Well said!.

  • Oh dear! Surely that’s entrapment being practiced by Keith Vaz. What sort of a wicked Machiavellian leading question to ask the Archbishop was that?

  • len

    The trap was set by Keith Vaz and Welby wandered in and set it off.

    • David

      Sadly Len, you are right.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      Thereby (metaphorically speaking) getting Vazectomized.

      Reversible, one hopes.

  • prompteetsincere

    Inverse racism now is within the doors of ‘Christendom’. Fear not?

  • Politically__Incorrect

    I seem to remember Keith Vaz standing in the arrivals lounge of Luton airport to welcome the very first of the East European migrants. Plenty of TV cameras homed in on them as Mr Vaz shook the guys hand to welcome him to GB (Gullible Britain). There were big smiles all around.

    A report a couple of days later said the man, who was from Romania I believe, already had a criminal record for assaulting his wife. Kind of Vaz to bring us a few more criminals; just what we need.

  • David

    When the British state believed itself to be something that I shall call a “Christian nation”, it may have been just about possible for Church and State to rub along together.
    Now I accept that there never has been anything that is truly a Christian nation, because only individuals can give their allegiance to God, but anyway if we use that idea as a working statement for this purpose, I’ll continue.
    Now however in the age of post-modernism, the State has become, in many of the important ways, unChristian if not anti-Christian. As such it is increasingly placing honest church leaders in impossible, unviable positions. This places an irresistible force for separating the Church from the State, does it not ? How long will be it be until the State severs the link, to pursue its agenda of secularisation and multiculturalism ? Would it not be better if the C of E jumped before it was pushed, negotiating the departure on better terms ? However I can’t see any of the present Church leadership placing faith before flag, as it were.
    My lingering fears about seeking disestablishment, centre on retaining our royalty as head of State and resisting the appalling prospect of having a mendacious ego, a pensioned politician, as a President. The Royals do a far better job of representing us. But I’ve covered far too many points there I fear.

  • IanCad

    Completely off-topic I know, but it is nice to end the week on a note of encouragement.
    Bumped into the dustmen on Wednesday – didn’t ask them – they both asked me to vote OUT. Said all their colleagues were of the same mind. Today I went to my local drywall supplier – same thing! All of them; drivers, yard men, office workers, are to a man (well, two of them are women) are voting out. Struck up a conversation with an artic driver. He comes down from the Midlands several times a week with eight hundred sheets of board. Eight pounds an hour he’s on. No raise in six years. Oh sure! His boss is sympathetic, but has made it quite clear that were he to quit, ten Polish drivers could replace him the next day.

    “Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget;
    For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet.
    —–
    It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
    God’s scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
    But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
    Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.”

    G. K. Chesterton
    Maybe things are looking up.

    • dannybhoy

      Ian, are you a Yank living in the UK, or a ‘trueBrit’ whose lived in the US?
      Have a good weekend.

      • carl jacobs

        If the former, then he is bringing light to those in cultural darkness. If the latter, then we’ve had a good influence on him, and he can’t help but bring light to those in cultural darkness.

        • len

          Must be a Brit knows his way around the language

          • carl jacobs

            Yes, he’s a Brit.

            knows his way around the language

            As I said. We’ve had a good influence on him.

          • len

            LOL

          • A most excellent use of irony, Grasshopper.

          • carl jacobs

            I’ve been waiting for you, Jack. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.

          • Wrong movie, Grasshopper.

          • carl jacobs

            Your powers are weak, old man.

          • If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

        • IanCad

          A better example of American rationality would be hard to find.

        • dannybhoy

          Mehhhhh.

      • IanCad

        Carl has it right – I’m UK bred and born. I have spent the greater part of my life in the USA and consider myself as British as apple pie.

        • dannybhoy

          (I’m being nosey, but I believe everyone has a story to tell. I have a particular fondness for (Christian) America, having worked and fellowshipped alongside them in various countries).
          Through my time in YWAM I have English friends now living in the States and Australia.
          Care to share some of your story?

          • IanCad

            Sure Danny,
            I met my American wife when living in Putney. Well, it didn’t take long for her to want to go back to warm Southern California. It was only then she told me she was an SDA. What!!!??? I had no idea. Never heard of them; And that name!!??
            Nevertheless, coming from the CofE, and with a relatively good grasp of history I was not totally heathen. I did read several of Ellen White’s books and, apart from some eschatological quibbles, found the conservative Christian theology not too far apart from the CofE. Of course, the Sabbath was a new one to me, but I accepted their position almost right away. I became a member about ten years later, and, I do miss many of the the friends we had in the church.
            I worked as a building designer and contractor and had the privilege of living in California, Washington State and South Carolina.
            Got clobbered by the 2008 recession and moved back to the UK, where we both have family, in 2012.
            I never felt at home in the USA. I’m a loudmouth, and not being able to participate in the political system was a severe trial. Not that I would have run for anything – I would just have liked to have been able to vote.
            Now I’m back here I feel something of a stranger in my own land.
            All in all, as far as i know I have good health, can still work, and feel very blessed.

          • dannybhoy

            “I’m a loudmouth”Me too!

  • Pubcrawler
  • David

    The latest news item on IN/OUT surveys is most heartening, with a clear lead for
    Brexit – see the top story in http://www.breitbartlondon.
    Campaigning last Wednesday for Leave in Stowmarket, Suffolk, again the vast majority were for OUT, many passionately so. Most Leavers are remarkably well informed, whilst most Remainers tend to have their heads full of vague, waffly ideas with no hard evidence to support it.
    I’m doing a 2 – 5 stint today in Bury St Edmunds.
    Then on Sunday the pleasure of firstly, the Queens 90th Birthday meal, followed by Choral Evensong as thanksgiving to Her Majesty.
    Let’s press on to reclaim our country, and our hard fought for freedoms, from constant interference from those that we didn’t elect to power.
    Things are looking up !

  • Dreadnaught

    The arrogance of the Bureau’rats is no better exemplified by Hrr. Schaubel who instead of examining the reasons why so many of the UK population wants shot of him and his ilk, stubbornly refuses to accept that they, with their socialist-empire building policies are not wanted; not wanted in the UK but also not wanted by vast numbers of the ‘plebs’ in so many other countries.
    The sad thing is that within the limits of cooperation through open trading and uniting in defence against external aggressors, the concept is a good one, but has been hijacked by unaccountable career politicians and administrators.
    One only has to look at the Kinnock dynasty and their bulging bank balances to see prime examples of Orwell’s rough arsed pigs, strutting around on two legs once driving out Farmer Jones – that is exactly what has happened and within only a generation of their fathers concluding their last shift at the pits.
    Even if the vote is to stay, unless the momentum for change is maintained and extended to include drawing together the dissatisfied but like minded ordinary people of the rest of the EU countries, that arrogance will ironically be further inflated by the outcome of a true democratic process that will probably not be seen again for a very long time.

  • steroflex

    I forget which archbishop of Canterbury it was who landed in New York and was met by the American Press.
    “Archbishop will you be visiting any night clubs during your stay here?”
    Archbishop: “Are there any night clubs in New York?”
    Headline the next day:
    ARCHBISHOP ASKS IF THERE ARE ANY NIGHT CLUBS IN NEW YORK

  • Inspector General

    BBC news item…

    “Three Syrian men have appeared in court accused of sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl in a park in Newcastle.

    Omar Badreddin, 18, Mohammed Alfrouh, 20, and Mohammad Allakkoud, 18, have pleaded not guilty.

    A 16-year-old-boy, understood to be Syrian, has also been charged with sexual assault. It is not known if he has entered a plea yet.

    Mr Badreddin came to the UK from Jordan last November under the government’s refugee resettlement programme.

    He and his family were judged to be vulnerable by the UN refugee agency.”

    • Under the Australian style points system he and others like him safe in the Jordanian camps would not have qualified for entry to the UK.

      • Inspector General

        “Father”

        “Yes, Mohammed”

        “How did you and mother meet?”

        “It was in the old country. I saw your mother in the street, and I sexually assaulted her. She told her brothers and they said they would kill me if I didn’t marry her”

        “Yes son, there you go. Romance, Syrian Arab style. It doesn’t get any better than that. Really it doesn’t. I was only 14”

        “Shut up woman, did I give you permission to speak? ”

        “But it’s been a good marriage. Big Mohammed doesn’t beat me nearly as often as he says I deserve.”

        {KNOCK, KNOCK}

        “Father it’s cousin Mohammed. at the door. How did his parents meet? ”

        “Well, his father, my brother, also called Mohammed, sexually assaulted a 14 year old girl and she told her brothers and…”

        • Hope we deport them.
          I wouldn’t have taken any in the first instance but public pressure from the do-gooders..

    • dannybhoy

      It’s a clash of religious and cultural practices. Non Muslim women and girls are considered inferior to Muslim women and therefore fair game to horny young Muslim men.

      • cacheton

        ‘……to horny young Muslim men…..’
        ….who consider sex to be something they are entitled to, even if their partner emphatically does not want it, and have never come across the idea of pleasurable exchange.

        Unfortunately, bar the ‘even if their partner emphatically does not want it’ bit, many young British and non-Muslim men think the same. Some even think that if their partner emphatically does not want it, they are merely playing hard to get!

        • dannybhoy

          ” many young British and non-Muslim men think the same.”
          Quite so. It’s essential to the reproductive cycle as designed by the Creator.
          The difference is that we in the West (mainly through our Lord’s influence) still treat women with a certain respect. It is secular humanism with its focus on our right to be and do what we desire that is gradually degrading women.
          Whereas in Islam women have always been subservient chattels…

          • cacheton

            So God is responsible for men thinking they are entitled to sex regardless of what their partner thinks? And he says women should be treated with ‘a certain respect’, but presumably not full respect, so if they say no to sex men can rape them anyway because it is OK for men to think they are entitled to it whatever their partner thinks?
            And secular humanism, with its focus on our right to be and do what we want, only applies to men but not to women, so men can do what they like to women regardless of what the women think, and secular humanism thinks that is ok? What!?
            Oh my dannybhoy I seriously hope I have completely misunderstood your post, because this does not seem like your usual way of thinking.

          • dannybhoy

            Apologies for the delay sir. We had a busy weekend, and I have been repairing garden steps whilst my breathing is reasonable. When you have problems with deteriorating lung function you get tired very easily.
            Actually I did start a reply to you the day after you posted, but it was getting too deep and I wanted to keep it condensed and simple.*
            Anyway, the basis of a Christian’s faith has to be the God breathed Scriptures.
            So the relationship between a man and a woman is mentioned quite often in the Old and New Testament.
            Most often Scripture talks about woman being subservient to man, that she is a helpmeet, that she is to be honoured in her sphere of influence and responsibility, and that she should obey her husband…..
            So there are Scriptural passages and verses that state how it should be, but then, throughout the history of Israel and the New Testament, we read about relationships where wives don’t always obey their husbands, where they take a lead, where they share in a ministry or head up a ministry..
            Jesus Himself recognised the qualities of woman, treated them with dignity and respect, and had some kind of “support group” largely made up of women of influence.
            The sexual relationship between a (Christian) husband and wife is for them to work out.
            Sometimes a woman will have a stronger sex drive than her husband and vice versa. If they are truly committed to each other they can work it out between them.
            So basically my point is that the “two have become one” and in the best -or most successful marriages they recognise their need of each other and love covers a multitude of sins and imperfections.
            As a Christian you don’t force someone you love and respect to submit to your sexual desires.
            *Yes, this is the condensed version… :0)

          • cacheton

            ‘Anyway, the basis of a Christian’s faith has to be the God breathed Scriptures.’
            Well we disagree on that one for starters! Surely Jesus is more important than they are.
            You were beginning to sound like an evolutionary biologist there, implying that rape is ok, but I see that you also believe that people need the whole christian package in order not to rape. I still think that this is dangerous, as some people will still think they can be a christian and rape women if it serves them to believe, as you seem to, that it is normal for men to think they are entitled to sex because god made them that way.

            Thank you for your long reply, but you did not elaborate on your belief that secular humanism is responsible for the degradation of women with its focus on our right to be and do what we desire. What makes you think that secular humanism applies only to men, and that the desires of women are not taken into account? It looks like you are just taking a cheap shot at secular humanism for the sake of it, and did not really think through what you wrote.

            AND – even if you read the so-called scriptures, what makes 2000 year old views on the relationship between men and women still valid today? Why is what it says in some scriptural passages ‘how it should be?’ How many of today’s women really agree with that?Women are intelligent enough to understand that god had to incarnate as a man 2000 years ago, as if she had been a woman nobody would have taken any notice of her. Things really are different today!

          • dannybhoy

            “Surely Jesus is more important than they are.”
            Jesus believed in the Old Testament, and He is the central character in the New Testament.
            I don’t think I indicated anywhere in my admittedly long reply that men should rape women either in or out of marriage. I tried to make it clear we treat women with respect.

          • cacheton

            I really have never understood how people can claim to have a relationship with a living Jesus whilst only using a 2000+ year old book as their reference.

            You did not indicate that men SHOULD rape women, but you imply that, as God is responsible for men thinking they are entitled to sex (which I disagree with of course), it is understandable that they DO rape women, and it is excusable as they are acting on God-given thoughts.

          • dannybhoy

            “but you imply that, as God is responsible for men thinking they are entitled to sex (which I disagree with of course), it is understandable that they DO rape women, and it is excusable as they are acting on God-given thoughts.”
            Quite how you arrived at that conclusion from my comment, I don’t know.
            I do not condone rape, the Scriptures do not condone rape either.
            It seems to me what you are overlooking is that men and women desire sex. If it’s done right both get great pleasure from it, and that is the way that we humans ensure the survival of the race. But God does not condone rape, and I don’t see where you get that idea from.
            Re secular humanism here’s a Christian critique..
            http://www.livestransforming.com/critique-of-secular-humanism/
            Perceived influences on society…
            http://www.summit.org/resources/truth-and-consequences/the-influence-of-the-secular-humanist-worldview/

            “Physician and psychiatrist Theodore Dalrymple lived among and studied the poor of London, England for 15 years. In Life at the Bottom, he reaches a conclusion concerning why people are poor: they have believed the worldview presented to them by the intellectual elite! Dalrymple witnessed what SH ethics (moral relativism) does when applied to society’s underclass. He explains:

            Intellectuals in the twentieth century sought to free our sexual relations of all social, contractual, or moral obligations and meaning whatsoever, so that henceforth only raw sexual desire itself would count in our decision making . . . But their ideas were adopted both literally and wholesale in the lowest and most vulnerable social class. If anyone wants to see what sexual relations are like, freed of contractual and social obligations, let him look at the chaos of the personal lives of members of the underclass. [1]

          • cacheton

            I think the misunderstanding is around the world ‘entitled’. Entitled to me means that those men in the Inspector’s original post reckoned they should have (were entitled to) sex because they felt like it and therefore raped an underage girl in a park. It seems that to you it means that humans fortunately feel like having sex sometimes because the survival of the race depends on it. Quite different!

            Thanks for the links and book etc – looks interesting.

          • dannybhoy

            I agree. Sex is/should be/can be more than just a physical act. However, given how complex we are as individuals, and often how damaged, I am not sure how many of us achieve the heights……

  • I see Boris is in for a kicking from Camoron and the Remainians. He might need a bit of help from his friends soon especially Michael, Nigel and all those at GO, Leave and others.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/

  • Just thought I’d share this from a chap called Pete Giles from 7th June 2016:
    “OK,.. here’s a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)
    Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.
    Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
    Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.
    Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.
    British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)
    Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn’t believe this till I checked Financial Times)
    Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
    M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
    Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
    Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
    Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
    Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
    Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
    Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
    ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
    Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)
    JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)
    UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
    Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
    Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
    The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
    Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.
    39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
    The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
    Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn’t paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don’t even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
    Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.
    I haven’t detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don’t even go there.
    I haven’t mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
    The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people’s favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more ‘special status’ for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.
    If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still ‘in’ with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly ‘remain’ or ‘leave’, it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle. Question is, do you want to survive or not?
    Find something that’s gone the other way, I’ve looked and I just can’t. If you think the EU is a good idea,
    1/ You haven’t read the party manifesto of The European Peoples’ Party.
    2/ You haven’t had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
    3/ You don’t think it matters.”

    • David

      Words fail me.
      It is more awful than I realised.
      Being “into” engineering, I knew about some of these “relocations”, asset stripping in fact, but the magnitude of our industrial denuding is truly shocking.
      Although not in engineering myself, I come from such a background, so it makes me feel quite angry.
      This must stop, and then be reversed.

      • It really is shocking & heart breaking.

      • Pubcrawler

        “Words fail me.”

        Oh I have plenty of words, but they’re not really publishable.

      • Being “into” engineering, as you put it, surely you must have considered the possibility that if Britain jumps proverbial ship, the shedding of some these industries with their obsoletete technologies, retarded management and entrenched workforce might be godsent. While the EU struggles with financial disasters, surreal over-regulation and waves of demanding migrants, the UK can retool and rebuild, and pick the best, brightest and most industrious.

        • David

          Well Avi, being outside the EU will be a benefit to all economic activities, including engineering. We will find it easier to arrange our own trade deals and be able to shed layer upon layer of unnecessary regulations, which benefit no one except the unworldly bureaucrats who delight in writing them. Moreover we will be able to recruit skilled engineers from anywhere in the world, especially the English speaking Commonwealth. At present we have the mad situation where skilled non-EU derived post-graduate engineering students, that we could usefully employ, are being deported, whilst unskilled EU nationals just flood in here, which is crazy and very unfair.
          The polls are finally turning in our favour, but we must keep working at it right up to, and during Voting Day. However for activists like myself, seeing that the vote share is swinging our way, is a great motivator. By the time all the votes are counted in the wee hours I shall be a very tired (old) boy. Hopefully soon afterwards I will be a happy one. My ambition for my country, and myself, has long been to be able to die as the Free Englishman that I was born to be.

          • What good news! I have been afraid to look at your polls, being worn out with one disaster followed by another in my country and province to boot. And keeping an eye on the nuttery unrevelling to the south is a full time occupation.

            It is unfortunate that under our Liberals, and a decimated Conservative party that is trying to rebuild by swinging to the left, Canada roots for Stay, but once the deed is done …please God… there will be pressure to maintain good relations. We haven’t all gone nuts. Yet.

          • David

            God bless.

    • IanCad

      Not quite time for breakfast yet and after reading this I think I’ll skip it.
      Marie, you have just written the best get out now post I have yet seen.
      Thank you so very much.
      BTW. Same things happening in the USA – albeit without government support however.
      Probably why Trump will be the next President.

      • RE your edit. You would think that after all the poltroonish nittwittery that’s come out of him that might be the case, but no. Fox News Poll just pinged me a news release that Obama’s approval ratings have gone up. No point trying to predict anything these days, old boy.

        • IanCad

          Don’t worry Avi, my predictions are often way off the mark.

          • You and everyone else’s, Ian. Wall Street and government ministries need to employ sci-fi and fiction writers, feed them LSD, put their their visions and ravings on cards and engage chimps to randomly fish them out of top hats for better predictions and projections in our nutty times.