Donald Trump 2
Extremism

Donald Trump is an ignorant chump, but banning him from Britain would be an offence against freedom

 

Say what you will, write as you want, think what you like, but Donald Trump is on the demotic ascendant and is currently in pole position to win the GOP nomination to become their candidate for President of the United States of America in 2016. He has – how shall we put it – a few robust views on certain contentious issues, and (lest the enlightened liberal-democratic progressives forget) he has a considerable following (and his views considerable support) among the people. If Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership of the Labour Party is morally validated and politically sustained by affirmative democracy over demagogic plutocracy, then Donald Trump’s popularity renders his dominion equally meritorious.

In response to the San Bernardino “act of terrorism” (so called because it was carried out by two people called Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, who had apparently “pledged allegiance” to ISIS/ISIL/Daesh on Facebook), Donald Trump has said that the USA must close its borders to all inbound Muslims, whether visiting tourists, working wage-earners, students or bona fide immigrants. He wants “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States”. Presumably “total and complete” embraces diplomats, bureaucrats, politicians and kings. It’s hard to see how the United Nations in New York City could function adequately without the free movement of world envoys, legitimate mediators and other representatives of the Islamic world(s). Nor is it clear how Congress would enact such a ban: if it be unconstitutional to bar anyone from holding public office on the grounds of religious belief, by what philosophical rationale may they be barred from entry by virtue of their adherence to a particular religion?

That aside, Donald Trump’s demand for a blanket ban on all Muslims of all denominations –both belligerent Wahhabi and benign Sufi – has been met with demands for Home Secretary Theresa May to ban him from visiting the UK. And that cry is going up from some prominent Conservatives. “I don’t believe he should be allowed to come anywhere near these shores,” says LBC’s Iain Dale. “If we can ban hate preachers, we can ban Donald Trump.” It’s a popular, now almost universal sentiment: if someone articulates ‘hate’, ban them.

It is all redolent of the 2009 decision by then Home Secretary Jacqui Smith to ban the Dutch politician Geert Wilders from visiting the UK, despite having committed no crime, and despite having been invited by two members of the House of Lords.

He was a democratically-elected citizen of the European Union, and thereby entitled – as are all citizens of the EU – to free movement within and across member states. He had broken no law in the Netherlands, in the UK, or even in the EU. He had simply made a film which was critical of aspects of Islamic Jihadism, and for that, he was deprived of his rights as a citizen of the EU. The UK government refused him entry because his views were considered to “threaten community harmony and therefore public security”. They invoked Article 19 of the 2006 Immigration Regulations, which permit the Home Office to ban a person from the UK “if his exclusion is justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”. So, for fear of civil unrest, liberty is diminished.

By way of explanation for the ban, the Home Office said it “opposes extremism in all its forms” and would work to “stop those who want to spread extremism, hatred and violent messages in our communities from coming to our country”.

Is it extremist to oppose extremism? Is it extremist to defend freedom, demand justice or uphold liberty?

And what if Donald Trump wins the GOP nomination? And what then if he should win the Presidency? Are we really entertaining the political possibility of barring the President of the United States and leader of the free world from visiting the United Kingdom? If so, why stop there? Aren’t a few other world leaders caught up in ‘extremism’ or embroiled in expressions of ‘hate’?

One wonders if those who demand that Trump be barred from entering the UK would advocate a ban on the sale of the Qur’an? One wonders if they’ve even read it (and understood it)? Isn’t it rather more important, not to say imperative, to support the freedoms of speech and expression? Isn’t it rather more vital to demonstrate to the likes of Donald Trump that the impetus to bar all Muslims from entry to your country is morally no different from cleansing your country of all Christians and Jews? Subversion, heresy, hate and apostasy are variously apprehended. One man’s evil extremist is another man’s righteous prophet.

If we ban Donald Trump for his religious illiteracy, political incapacity and human insensitivity, we deny freedom of speech and limit freedom of religion and so curtail participation in public debate. As Lord Justice Sedley said in 1999, “Free speech includes not only the offensive, but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative, providing it does not tend to provoke violence.” If we may not applaud or heckle Donald Trump, then we move ever-closer toward the day when we may not criticise Islam, question the Qur’an or defame Mohammed, for to do so would be an unacceptable expression of ‘hate’, which blasphemy imperils the peace and security of the Realm.

  • Mr Bulls

    Trump may go further, he is not too far out of step with Japan…

  • len

    ‘Political Correctness ‘ is no friend of free speech ,political correctness acts to gag anyone who disagrees with secular ‘moral law’ and anyone who breaks this restriction on free speech will be hounded by that small group who attempt to control the way we think and speak.
    We must suffer those with opinions such as D Trump for to silence that one voice is to silence all who value freedom of speech.

    • Ivan M

      Trump talks a lot of sense. The cucks are afraid that their shell game of taking conservatives for a ride, is ending. Whether he wins or loses, the PC brigade will never again be able to put Humpty-Dumpty together again, nor staunch the dike with their fingers.

  • IanCad

    Be very careful YG. Do not underestimate Americans. It is easy to do; but beware that ferocious tribe.

  • PerplexedSardine

    if it be unconstitutional to bar anyone from holding public office on the grounds of religious belief, by what philosophical rationale may they be barred from entry by virtue of their adherence to a particular religion?

    You speak a lot of sense, but this particular argument is quite absurd. A country’s jurisdiction stops at its borders, and its rights do not extend to people outside. You might as well say that since one isn’t required to own a passport (or other identification) in the UK it is unjust discrimination to expect people entering the UK to have one either.

    • James Bolivar DiGriz

      That comment was in the context of how Congress might pass such a ban. If someone who believes in X can be in the country and can stand for any public office then it would be contradictory to pass a law saying that someone else who believe in X cannot enter the country.

      • PerplexedSardine

        It’s true the idea would be impossible to implement for practical reasons (you can’t really test what religion someone is), but there’s nothing contradictory about having different standards for someone entering a country and someone already there. People with criminal records can stand for office in the US, but the same criminal record could easily deny you entry.

  • The Explorer

    Trump has got into trouble for suggesting that there are no go areas in London. Of course there aren’t.

    However, the figures for the 2011 census showed that 600 000 indigenous whites had left the capital. What caused this incidence of white flight? Property prices, of course. What else could it be?

    • James Bolivar DiGriz

      “Of course there aren’t.”
      Well
      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3948391.ece
      makes it clear that there are people who are willing to to take illegal action to impose their views on other people.

      And there are credible reports of self-styled sharia law enforcers in that part of London harassing people, such as women who are not dressed as modestly as ‘local custom’ dictates or people who (or are suspected of being) homosexual.

      • The Explorer

        Look at the total statement. What is the explanation for white flight? I don’t think property prices account for it.

        Bruce Bawer (himself gay and living in Norway) noted with dismay the flight of gays from Amsterdam. Property prices weren’t the reason there either.

    • Sam

      Dude

      Try wearing a kippah , tallit or a mitpachat in certain parts and you’ll quickly discover the reality . And people wonder why I can’t see a future for my family in Britain….

      • The Explorer

        Exactly. I was being ironic.

        • Sam

          Us Jews do have a sense of humour (:

        • Sam

          Dude

          Whilst I’ve noticed that I’m more likely to be spat on or given verbal abuse for it , strangely enough , I find myself defiant in wearing Kippah and Tallit. My significant other and married sisters/in laws feel the same about them putting on mitpachat. Although I’m more British during Shabbat with a top hat.

          • The Explorer

            The theory is that all the kids from everywhere will play happily in the sandpit together. When one group starts throwing sand at the others, the theorists don’t really know what to do. The easiest thing is to ignore it, and pretend it isn’t happening; so that when presented with incontrovertible evidence by someone uncompromising, the theorists get annoyed.

  • bluedog

    Your communicant earnestly hopes that the Donald wins the Republican nomination and wins the Presidential race, Your Grace. Like Jeremy Corbyn, Donald Trump is an outsider who defies the conventional wisdom. He therefore appeals to an electorate that is increasingly jaded by democratic politics in which neither of the two principal political parties is clearly distinguishable from the other. Even if there is a distinction at the hustings, their policies once in office blurr into a dreadful predictability and sameness.
    Helpfully, one notes that the United Nations has added its voice to those who decry Trump for his hate crime of Islamophobia. What could be better for Trump’s prospects than this? Presumably the motion was tabled by the OIC, whose leading member the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is custodian of the holy places, to which no non-Muslim may visit. It merely remains for the Donald to declare that the United States is a sacred site and all will be resolved. Certainly the Saudis will recognise and understand a kindred spirit in view of their own Kuffar ban.
    In any event, should Trump be elected, one can confidently predict a Cameroon mercy dash across the Atlantic, in the Prime Ministerial jet, to save the special relationship. All will be forgiven in a flurry of platitudinous praise. A gala evening at the British embassy in Washington will see the memory of past partnerships invoked and liberally toasted. Churchill and Roosevelt, Kennedy and MacMillan, Thatcher and Reagan. That’s about it, and certainly no mention of Eisenhower and Eden.
    Of course, a major Islamist atrocity in the UK may even prompt demands for Trumpesque policies closer to home.

    • Ivan M

      Trump may even ask for Churchill’s bust back

      • bluedog

        Arise, Sir Donald.

    • IanCad

      What with the “Three Masters” quip of yesterday, and now this, you’re in top form Mr. bluedog.
      Only thing is, there is no “Special Relationship.” We may talk of it, as will the Yanks. We believe it. They don’t.

      • bluedog

        Thank you, kind Sir. Totally agree your view of the SR. Under Cameron, British power has collapsed.

    • Dreadnaught

      Donald Trump is an outsider who defies the conventional wisdom.

      He defies any wisdom. The guy you are so enamoured with, will have his finger on the nuclear button like Slim Pickens in Dr Strangelove –
      or as Dirty Harry would say ‘Do ya feel lucky Punk – Well do Ya?’
      Trump with a Nuclear Thump – is that what would make you feel safe Bluey? Lunatics on the Left – Madmen on the right; it sort of makes the inmates of Broadmoor look quite sane.

      • WimsThePhoenix

        Rubbish.

      • James Bolivar DiGriz

        Of course the fact that the US President cannot unilaterally launch nuclear weapons won’t deflect you from this hysterical nonsense.

        • Dreadnaught

          The launch need the ok of the President as he is supreme commander. My comment was making light of a serious observation. I would have thought that was obvious even to you.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            “I would have thought that was obvious even to you.”
            Thank you for telling me I am thick. Obviously I am too thick to work that out for myself.

          • Dreadnaught

            Just don’t have the same sense of humour would be more apt.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            I have a perfectly good sense of humour. You posted something that was not humorous and incorrect. When I pointed out your error you were abusive. And now you are too cowardly(?) to admit you were wrong and just carry on being abusive. That tells me as much as I want to know about you.

          • Dreadnaught

            If it makes you happy, so be it.

      • carl jacobs

        Hey now! Major Kong is a great character. He’s one of my heroes. In fact, I can’t watch Strangelove without rooting for the bomber to make it through to the target. The professionalism of the SAC Combat Crew is my favorite part of the movie.

        But otherwise you are correct. Trump wouldn’t be a credible CinC. And he would be eaten alive by the Politicos in DC. He won’t survive the Primaries. This is all sound and fury signifying nothing.

        • Dreadnaught

          Yes – I’d forgotten his name!

      • bluedog

        Trump is almost certainly far smarter than you judge. You don’t make a billions dollars through stupidity. Perhaps his political persona is an exercise in product differentiation, the deliberate opposite of Obama and the heavily tutored Republican competitors. Obama plays Hamlet with his endless discursive soliloquies; why do you prefer him as leader of the free world? The US doesn’t even have a patron saint but if it did we might hear ”God for Donald, America and St xxxx”.

        • carl jacobs

          Dog

          Trump would be folded, spindled, and mutilated in DC. It’s one thing to make speeches. It’s entirely another to enact policy. He would have no clue how to operate in that environment. Congress and the bureaucracy would cut him to shreds. It would make the Opium Wars look competitive.

          His would be a failed Presidency before it even started. You don’t want him elected, and you don’t even want him in the race.

          • bluedog

            “Congress and the bureaucracy would cut him to shreds.”
            Well they’ve done a fine job on Obama too, who complains about a vetocracy. Which begs the question, who can run the US? Is it time to try some sort of parliamentary democracy instead? The thought of Hilary Clinton has no appeal and the GOP kids look like they’d be overwhelmed just as you say DT would be. Clinton is probably too old to cope with the job. At least Trump is new blood and a break from the tedious Clinton-Bush-Oh look there’s a Kennedy routine. Trump certainly has an impressive instinct for the popular mood and is refreshingly frank and unscripted..

  • Anton

    What proportion of the UK population would like to see “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United” Kingdom?

    • bluedog

      Umm, 96%.

  • Sam

    Trump is a popularist who’s riding on the bandwagon of “at least he’s authentic and not a lying and or PC politician”. The mirror opposite of Corbyn , but the same underlying theme.

    • Ivan M

      What is wrong with an authentic politician who speaks off the cuff, instead of waiting for his handlers and pollsters to clear what he has to say?

      • Sam

        I wasn’t coming down either way, just pointing out a fact. I’m genuinely surprised, btw, you are gushing over Trump given he is pro Israel & he’s popping over for a visit and his daughter is an Orthodox Jew who is best pals with Chelsea C.

        • Ivan M

          Israel is a sideshow. The US however deserves to be saved from the leftists.

          • Sam

            Have a Sufganiyah(Hanukkah doughnut) on me.

        • WimsThePhoenix

          What’s wrong with being pro Israel? The only beacon of democracy surrounded by people who deny their right to exist under ANY circumstances?

          Sounds like YOU are anti-Jewish bigot.

          • Sam

            Dude

            Ivan is hardly uncritical of Israel etc on this blog : my post expressing my surprise at his stance on Trump. As for the rest of your ranting. I was last in Israel about a week ago . I took time to visit my relatives who live there.

          • Ivan M

            Wims get real man.

          • Sam

            You know it’s bad when this unashamed Zionist up votes Ivan M!

    • WimsThePhoenix

      Ok wise guy. Let’s hear your definition of a successful politican with integrity.

      Either say they are all crap or quit picking on the only one who states the facts of the problem that others are too cowardly to.

      • Sam

        Dude

        As I said to Ivan below that wasn’t an attack on trump. It is a factual observation that the guy will basically say whatever comes into his mouth…. unlike a professional politician. Ergo certain sections of the public love him for that as he seems “genuine” , untainted by the usual perceptions the public have of politicians.

  • alternative_perspective

    If I said, here is a box of 10,000 smarties. But about 50 % sometimes taste a bit unusual, 20 % are very bitter and taste nothing like normal smarties and of that 20% about 1 % are poisonous and if consumed will kill you. How many would you eat? How many would you give to your children to eat?

    • sarky

      None, they prefer m&m’s.

      • alternative_perspective

        Actually the analogy i heard was based on m&m i just anglicised it and threw in a few more stats for effect.

        • IrishNeanderthal

          Your M&M’s remind me of this . . .

          About 100 years ago, Mormons were starting to appear in Britain. G.K.Chesterton remarked on this in a collection of essays entitled The Uses of Diversity (1920). Extract follows:

          «Our real error in such a case is that we do not know or care about the creed itself, from which a people’s customs, good or bad, will necessarily flow. We talk much about “respecting” this or that person’s religion; but the way to respect a religion is to treat it as a religion: to ask what are its tenets and what are their consequences. But modern tolerance is deafer than intolerance. The old religious authorities, at least, defined a heresy before they condemned it, and read a book before they burned it. But we are always saying to a Mormon or a Moslem — “Never mind about your religion, come to my arms.” To which he naturally replies — “But I do mind about my religion, and I advise you to mind your eye.”»

          (If the linked page gives some weird punctuation, this can be cured by setting your browser to View — Text Encoding — Western)

          • Busy Mum

            This is a very good quote that should be perused by school RE teachers everywhere. In the name of promoting ‘understanding all religions’, children are taught about all the rituals but none of the tenets….

      • Dreadnaught

        Keep it real FFS.

        • sarky

          Keep it real? I’m not the one peddling paranoia and hysteria.

          • Dreadnaught

            no need to spit your dummy out.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            How about a logical disassembly of the analogy rather than trite dog whistle phrases?

            What percentage of muslims so far have committed, or attempted to plan, terrorist attacks? Change the 1% of smarties to whatever that figure and the question still stands: how many would you feed to your children?

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            “What percentage of muslims so far have committed, or attempted to plan, terrorist attacks?”
            Or are complicit in or supportive of such acts. From
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12007852/There-is-a-clear-link-between-Islam-and-terrorism.-Its-up-to-all-of-us-to-break-it.html

            “In the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks the BBC conducted an opinion poll of the views of the British Muslim community. 27 per-cent of those questioned agreed with the statement “I have some sympathy behind the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attacks in Paris”. A further 2 per cent refused to answer. A further 8 per cent couldn’t make up their minds whether they agreed with the statement or not.”

            The c. 40% who won’t condemn a massacre are not totally cut off from the rest of the Muslim community. They may be extremists but extremists are always part of a continuum.

          • sarky

            12,500 people where killed in the states by gun crime last year. I don’t see Trump trying to ban americans.

          • Sam

            Dude

            Ignore wims. The guy breezes in. Says some bullshit and hasn’t come back when responded to. Not worth bothering with.

          • William Lewis

            Yes, because the notion that there are some islamists in the country or coming to the country, who are training to kill as many people living here as they can, is an hysterical, paranoid delusion. Isn’t it, Sarky?

        • Royinsouthwest

          I often disagree with sarky but people replying to his comments on this topic should be polite and ought to go and read his comment earlier today, about the little girl who lost her family, on the previous topic (the Woolf and Butler-Sloss Report) and think about it.

          • Dreadnaught

            All the more reason to stay on topic and relevant. I’m sure also he is more than capable of speaking for himself – which he did.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Of course sarky is capable of defending himself. I was pointing out that he had taken the trouble to post a comment not the previous thread which, since it was one of the last comments before this new topic was started, probably did not attract the notice it, or rather the girl who was the subject of the comment, deserves.

            Did you read the comment? If you did then judging by your words about staying “on topic and relevant” you thought it better “to pass by on the other side.”

          • Dreadnaught

            I can only refer to a persons comment on this current topic.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Why? I managed to mention it here in order to point out that sarky has some good qualities but, if you are that concerned about sticking “religiously” to the topic you could always go back to the previous topic and read sarky’s comments there and reply. Even if you don’t want to add a comment on them you could always click on the upward arrow to signify your agreement with what he said, if you do agree with it.

          • Martin

            Roy

            So what relevance has Sarky’s sentimental streak got? He openly hates God and pours scorn on those who don’t with his poorly thought out nonsense. Indeed he is in favour of teaching all our children the lie of Evolution, resulting in yet more dead ends for science to fumble about in. Sorry, but what is there to think about?

          • Royinsouthwest

            I think you and Dreadnaught need to read the Parable of the Good Samaritan. The meaning of the parable would have been the same if it had been about “the Good Evolutionist” or “the Good Muslim.”

          • Martin

            Roy

            I hadn’t noticed the passage where the Good Samaritan denies that God exists & denigrates those who seek to serve Him.

          • Royinsouthwest

            As you know, Jesus told that parable in answer to the question, “who is my neighbour?” Just suppose the Samaritan had really been an atheist. Would his assistance have been any less beneficial to the Jew who had been beaten up and robbed?

            God’s laws apply to all, not just Christians (and Jews) and therefore it is obviously better when atheists and agnostics choose to do the right thing than when they do the wrong thing.

          • Martin

            Roy

            The only time we do good is when God causes to do it. Left to themselves mankind can only do evil, for their motives are evil.

          • sarky

            That little gIrl maybe?

          • Martin

            Sarky

            How about all those children who are deprived of the right to hear God’s word by the likes of you? Your pathetic attempt to make yourself feel good aren’t terrible relevant to them are they.

          • CliveM

            That was unfair and uncalled for. You can’t judge the motivation as you have nothing to judge it on. Except for psychopaths we can all feel empathy, sorrow and compassion. Not just Christians.
            That was shameful.

          • Martin

            Clive

            I’ve plenty to judge on, Sarky is not an infrequent visitor here.

          • sarky

            What the hell is wrong with you?? How can you possibly compare a girl who lost her whole family and sufferred terrible burns to a lack of RE? As for ‘a pathetic attempt to make myself feel good’, I wasn’t, I was hoping people would help this little girl feel good.
            You are a sick, sick man and it is people like you who make christianity so hated in this country, you speak of love then act like a total ars###le!!!!!!

          • Martin

            Sarky

            What is wrong with you, how can you compare sorrow in this with an eternity of torment in the next? That torment that you would like to impose on all mankind in your pride and arrogance.

            The one who is sick is you, sick to the soul with wickedness and evil. You even use potty language to try to excuse yourself.

          • sarky

            You twat.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            What’s this, more potty language?

          • sarky

            No, just an accurate description.

          • Sam

            Martin , Dude, “Sam By denying the God who created him and encouraging others to do likewise.”

            From my understanding Sarky is a secular or not fully observant Christian as , just like a few Jewish people I know who will celebrate Passover or Hanukkah. he seems to be ok with celebrating key Christian holidays , such as Christmas which is the birth of Jesus? I dunno if I’m correct but I’m sure he said he’d got family who were clergy ? But regardless he was showing compassion for a girl in tragically horrific circumstances and was bringing this to our attention . Your dismissal of him will only confirm his suspicions of Christianity as a lot of bigoted, hot hypocritical air and frankly one which I struggle when I say to fellow Jews things have changed or let’s engage with these people.

            But regardless sarky , however unwittingly, performed a Mitzvot: in my understanding when a goy who follows a Mitzvot of the Holy Torah they are appreciated more than the high priests of the Temple in God’s eyes.

          • sarky

            Cheers Sam 🙂

          • Martin

            Sarky

            So potty language insults is the peak of your debating.

          • sarky

            Only with you.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            So I’ve defeated you.

          • sarky

            Didnt realise we were in a battle. I think your comment says a lot about who you are, you sad little man.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            You serve your master, of evil, hate and sorrow, I serve mine of good, love and joy. You may deny it, you may even not realise it, but that is how it is.

          • sarky

            Funny but you don’t seem to reflect your master, unless of course he is small minded, hateful and bigoted.
            if my master is evil, hate and sorrow, then you might be on the wrong side, because my master also offers the hope and compassion that yours lacks.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            Well done, you display the hate of your master very well. But remember, your master also hates you.

          • sarky

            You do not know the power of the darkside.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            No one has power against God, nothing happens unless God permits it.

          • sarky

            Like war and disease? what a lovely god you have.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            You and the rest of humanity share the blame for that. God made it perfect, mankind spoiled it.

          • sarky

            Like you said, nothing happens without gods say so, so by your thinking god is to blame.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            No, you are to blame.

          • sarky

            As are you then.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            Indeed, we all are to blame. But don’t think that reduces your responsibility. You need to turn to God in repentance.

          • sarky

            No I don’t.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            That is what you need, your pride will stop you from doing so.

          • sarky

            No, my logical brain will stop me from doing so.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            If you had a logical brain you wouldn’t be pretending to yourself that God doesn’t exist.

          • sarky

            And if you had one, you wouldn’t be pretending that he does.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            As you know, God exists.

          • sarky

            Best panto voice – ‘o no i dont’

          • Martin

            Sarky

            And like your claim that you don’t know God exists, panto is make believe.

          • sarky

            You are a very strange little man.

          • CliveM

            He has some bizarre ideas with regards witness.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            Only in your distorted eyesight.

          • sarky

            Judging by a few of the comments on here, I’m not in the minority.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            And?

          • Sam

            Alternatively it could be that there is compassion in most people, whatever their creed , when it comes down to it?

          • Martin

            Sam

            Is there? How much compassion for their fellow man is there in those who willingly drag others into their own sin?

          • Sam

            How’s he doing that ?

          • Martin

            Sam

            By denying the God who created him and encouraging others to do likewise.

      • IrishNeanderthal

        That does remind me of the advertisment:

        “. . . or I’ll eat one of the hostages”!

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Sounds like you’ve been shopping at Poundland

  • Dreadnaught

    We need voices like Trump’s to be heard – not because they are necessarily sensible but to break the stranglehold of politically correct and remote thinking politicians and the wretched media like the BBC who treat the general public as idiots.
    I’m glad Le Pen succeeded in France and hope that FN shake the complacency out of European politics that is laying waste to our culture and values.

    It’s all well and good for Cameron and the Rest to talk about social cohesion, but if they cared as much about non-Muslims our feelings, opinions and safety, as they do about the Muslim ‘Community’ we would all be better off.

    As the post tells, Wilders, a democratically elected EU politician was banned from ‘these shores’. He hasn’t threatened to murder anyone but Muslims are out to kill him yet he gets banned – where’s the bloody logic in that? We gave refuge to the Queen of Holland during WW2 and any Dutchmen and women that needed it so they could fight back against the Fascists. Look at us now; Muslims attackers all over the world are free to come and go ‘from these shores’ at will.

    Being on the political Right wing is not enough – it must always be the ‘Far-Right’ while the sneering ‘comedians’ and commentators (no difference really) that wear their left wing credentials like some kind of angelic gossamer, parade their bias and ignorance with impunity and without shame. Corbyn quoting Hoxja (or however he spelled his name) and McDonald thinking Mao the Murderer of Millions a suitable joking matter in Parliament say how far politicians are from Joe Public.

    I say let them call me Far Right, its not true: I am not Far Wrong either.

    • William Lewis

      The dreadnaught at full steam is a sight to behold.

  • by what philosophical rationale may they be barred from entry by virtue of their adherence to a particular religion?

    Islam advocates violence against non-Muslims. Most Americans being non-Muslim, the rationale is that of acting in the best interests of the people. Western governments used to be pretty good at that before cultural Marxism took hold and speaking up for the people earned one the status of populist, racist, xenophobe, hater, anti-Semite, Islamophobe, ‘ignorant chump’…

  • Politically__Incorrect

    If the UK were to ban him, has anybody considered the kind of retaliatory measures that might come our way, even if he failed to get to the Oval office? Whatever happens, Trump has said (very loudly) what people like us tend to only whisper on this blog. His comments have been like a sharp knife cutting through a large and stinking pile of PC crap.

    On the BBC Today programme this morning they discussed the response from Iowa which is considered a reliable barometer for the outcome of the Presidential election. They interviewed a radio DJ who said the overwhelming majority of callers to his programme agreed with Trumps views and were wholeheartedly “sick of political correctness”.

    If nothing else, this row is enabling us to have a more open public debate. There is something refreshing about honesty. “The Truth shall set you free”

  • Orwell Ian

    There is a clear and present danger from Muslim terrorists intermingling with Muslim migrants and infiltrating the West. That should be sufficient rationale for barring them all from entry by virtue of their adherence to a particular religion.

    The Cultural Marxist hegemony has a tactical alliance with radical Islam. Both are for unrestricted migration and have a shared desire to restrict free-speech. The Left gives Islam protection from “Islamophobia” in exchange for political support and are responsible the NTDWI “fatwa” that religion has nothing whatsoever to do with Islamist terrorism. Cultural Marxists mistakenly believe they are giving up nothing of value but this is an “abusive relationship” since each uses the other to advance its own brand of totalitarianism. Political Correctness has become a menace. It will be our downfall unless overthrown.

    • WimsThePhoenix

      I agree, however, it is even worse. I believe it is a strategic alliance. The Marxists want a one world state; Islam wants a global Caliphate; the EU is a stepping stone to a one world state. Nationalists, now defined as people who love their own culture and don’t want it destroyed and replaced, will oppose an EU super-state. Answer: import a massive number of muslims who will very soon outnumber, by breeding if no other way, the indigenous nationalists.

      This whole “refugee crisis” was manufactured by the EU and the USA.

      The USA twiddled its thumbs while ISIS took root, causing a steady stream of immigrant refugees. Putin’s intervention caused a massive outflow.

      Merkel made her “compassionate” invitation, illegally and now demands the rest of Europe “takes its share” – of HER demands.

      You might argue that muslim misogyny and execution of homosexuals goes against cultural Marxism, but it does not. Feminists and homosexuals were the “useful idiots” who helped to destroy the traditional nuclear family, halving (at least) the number of people prepared to fight to defend it.

      The Marxists will cheefully throw women and homosexuals under the bus in order to gain one world domination. If converting to Islam is the lip service they need to pay, they will. Muslims in power still drink alchol and indulge in various sexual practices as anyone who reads the news about Saudi princes will be well aware.

      Marxism was always a patriarchal ideology.

      Feminists are in for a nastly suprise. They should be protesting Islamification now instead of cowering and checking their privileges.

      • Maalaistollo

        At least it is now clear what the EU ‘Project’ is.

  • Plasterer

    On Trump:
    Don’t try to parse the logic, listen to the emotion. According to Mr. Dilbert, Trump is bypassing people’s logic, and just going for the gut. It seems to be working.

  • WimsThePhoenix

    Why do all conservative bloggers have precede their defence of Trump by insulting him?

    Has Britain become such a Marxist enclave since 1997 that you are so frightened of twitter that you feel you MUST argue solely on the basis of freedom?

    WHY is Trump a “chump”? How many chumps do YOU know who can make billions and become a frontrunner in a selection for presidential candidate as an outsider whom the party leaders despise?

    He might exaggerate, but he is the only politician talking sense over there. We have Farage, but even he tones the rhetoric down for fear of prosecution by the Marxists.

    • IanCad

      O how right to are. Must go on the defensive right away; after all we don’t want to appear ignorant, do we? For otherwise we will be relegated to the uneducated, unenlightened catacombs of the masses.
      Better display a little ‘Virtue Signaling” first.

  • Sybaseguru

    I seem to remember Michael Nazir-Ali, former Bishop of Rochester, making a comment about parts of the UK being off limits to non-muslims. There were arrests of muslim gangs enforcing Islamic law in East London at night forcing their views on snogging couples, someone carrying alcohol, and telling women they were dressed inappropriately. No quite police no go areas, but closer to the truth than most politicians who would have you believe that all is sweetness and light..

  • Martin

    Is not the problem that the Qur’an is consistent with both the peaceful Muslim and the warlike? Both can point to passages for support. The problem is how the man in the street, or the immigration officer, can tell the difference. If a politician is prepared to stand up and say this, whatever his motives, can we really object?

    Perhaps those politicians, and others*, who pretend that there is no problem, that all real Muslims are peaceful, are the real problem.

    *Such as the BBC who had lots of people say Trump was wrong against a feeble comment that some people might think he is right this afternoon.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      In it’s recent coverage of the tube station stabbing, the BBC,tried to paint a rosy picture of Islam, even quoting from the Koran to prove it’s point. It (mis)quoted v5:32…

      “…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…”

      This seems to be one of the most misquoted of the Korans verses when attempting to portray it as a religion of peace. When you read the entire passage it shows that (1) it seems to only apply to Jews and (2) there are escape clauses that seem to permit violence for just about any reason…

      “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”

      Another case of religious illiteracy on the part of the BBC

      • Mark

        Yep. Our politicians have quoted that line, but were probably ignorant of the whole verse and definitely ignorant of the following verse. Many are now clued up to this.

        The thing is, if a Muslim only knows that line and is genuinely ignorant of the surrounding verse plus the following verse they can make their personal religion out of it. A bit of cherry-picking never went amiss….

        The problem we have is that if someone quotes it, being fully aware of the verse and following verse, that is deceitful.

  • Phil R

    The issue is that Trump and others are saying things out loud that many people think but (at least in most of Europe) dare not speak out loud.

    The response was to try to censor the individual. The outrage was not so much at what was being said rather that they had crossed the line of reasoning the left had spent years drawing in people’s minds, usually with the passing of “thought” laws. (People may think it, but dare not say it for fear of reprisal by the state.)

    It is both interesting that a Conservative Prime Minister was quick to condemn Trump’s comments and that Obama’s administration decided that the issue to attack was his hair.

  • David

    As someone who believes in free speech, I think Trump should be able to say what he believes, and indeed knows that many of his electorate also believe. To quote an American friend, “he connects with ordinary people by using the working class lexicon” – there ! So he’s a communicator, and cares not one jot for the opinions of the PC brigade, who will never vote for him anyway.
    Indeed, from the inquiries I have made, it seems that Trump is no chump, but a highly educated man, astute enough to add substantially to his family’s considerable fortune. But as part of his upbringing, his wealthy and successful father made sure that, before he rose too high in life, and became disconnected from ordinary Americans, he experienced first hand working class American life. It is that experience he draws upon to “connect” with a section of the public that has been neglected and ignored, even rejected, by the Washington PC brigade – notice any parallels with us here in the UK.
    If politics is to reconnect with the general public, and democracy is to be reinvigorated, there needs to be much more of this decidedly non-PC, earthy talk from the would-be top political leaders. Of course it must all be about far more than just shocking people – it must be grounded in basic truths, and then translated into practical, achievable policies.
    For myself, whilst not lauding the crude, I am all for calling a spade a spade. Let’s say what we mean and mean what we say. Good luck to Donald Trump.

  • Inspector General

    Further down, the Explorer mentions ‘white flight’. For information on this phenomenon see the Wiki entry thereon. First observed in the USA, there is a brief section lower down for the United Kingdom. For those not familiar with the term, it can be described as such: “The natural desire of people to live amongst other people just like them, and the resulting physical relocation to achieve that end.”

    Ironically, its initial cause is the alien immigrant, wishing to live next door to his people, and as numbers grow, so the neighbourhood becomes less English and more like the inhabitants original home.

    Recognised triggers include: for the younger family, a despair to find the school your child is attending is now overwhelmingly non-white, and where English itself is a foreign language among the pupils. Second, concerns about crime and social disorder particularly in Afro Caribbean areas. Thirdly, and this affects the older generation the most, a feeling of alienation caused by very few speaking English day to day in the locale. A forth trigger is purely economic. As the numbers of coloured residents in the street increases, the properties overall reduce in value. As with Stocks and Shares, there comes a time when the optimum value will be predicted to fall, and you sell as soon as you can. A fifth reason isn’t a trigger in itself, but a result. It does happen that once a property comes into immigrants hands, it may never go back onto the free market again, should it need to. The property is disposed of within the community, and to a member of that community, and that is not going to be a member of the white indigenous.

    White Flight is rarely mentioned by the media, even in discussions about immigration and the resulting demographics. It simply isn’t allowed to be. It’s defeatist, that’s why. For it does not just mean the Marxist ‘ideals’ behind mass immigration will never materialise, but that they never had a chance of doing so in the first place. Instead, the disparate populations avoid embracing British culture and end up celebrating their own inherent one. The one that is handed down the generations of the same, which as the Inspector delights in pointing out, is the real ‘original sin’ if ever there were, as some of this culture is, frankly, abhorrent to the European.

    • Royinsouthwest

      I admit I cannot remember when I last heard the phrase “white flight” on television but, over the years, there have been a number of articles on it in the Guardian. In the most recent one I could find, written by Hugh Muir and published two years ago, he admits that it is not simply a problem of white racism but is complicated and he concludes that we don’t really understand the reasons.

      What’s the truth behind white flight?
      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/01/white-flight-diversity-cities

      • Inspector General

        Roy. Think of white flight as mass disobedience to the small m Marxists in power. That these ingrates were so disdainful of the great social experiment of virtually uncontrolled alien immigration which had been enacted for THEIR good, apparently, leads the Inspector to wonder if the Labour government of the day could have got away with fining those who were part of it, they would have.

      • The Explorer

        Just as we have no idea what was behind 9/11, London 2005, the killing of Drummer Rigby, Charlie Hebdo, the Paris killings, or the San Bernardino shootings. There must be a link, but no one knows what it is. It’s a mystery.

        • Pubcrawler

          The only thing we know for sure is what it most definitely does not have anything to do with, no siree. There’s even a hashtag in case anyone should get the wrong idea.

  • Inspector General

    Looks to be a rerun of the 1950s communist scare the USA went through. It makes sense. You keep your enemies out. They want to overthrow what you have. Change things, spill blood. Yes, they want to spill blood – they seem to get some form of relief from doing that. Unlike the communist, the muslim is easily identifiable, with his uniform of straggly beard (for him) and some extent of veiling (for her). Oh yes, and the guns. We won’t forget the guns.

    Occasionally, it helps to see the full picture by being silly. For example, of the San Bernardino dead, 13 of the victims now support Trump fully in what he says. The fourteenth however says he was at fault for being an infidel dog. The 2 perpetrators take the same view. “We learn about the unbeliever from the Koran. When we hear that you lot are nothing more than infidel dogs, week after week after week, all our lives, it becomes easier to kill you. We were just killing a few dogs that day. Look, afterwards, we both wanted to be able to sleep at night without lying awake regretting. Had you not shot us dead, we would have had peaceful and undisturbed sleep thereafter”.

    Trump merely repeats US policy of the past. Different enemy, but same tried and trusted methodology. And here’s the shocker. When he’s President of the United States, and de facto leader of the free world, just watch how quickly his current detractors come round to seeing things his way, as they queue up to have their photograph taken with the most powerful man in the world.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      13 of the victims now support Trump fully in what he says. The fourteenth however says he was at fault for being an infidel dog.

      From beyond the grave?

  • len

    It would seem to some that Donald Trump gives a voice to those who dare not speak for fear of being labelled ‘bigoted’ or ‘judgemental’ very serious crimes to the PC brigade.
    This is the danger of restricting free speech a tidal wave of resentment builds up waiting to burst out.We have seen this before when one man can focus this build up resentment and anger to further their own aims. Donald Trump whatever you might think about him has given voice to many concerns which others have swept under the carpet.

  • Tutanekai

    A people gets the leader it deserves.

    If Trump is elected then America will have made the choice of ignorance and xenophobia. It’s their choice to make and anyone familiar with the barely educated, deeply ignorant and religiously brainwashed average American won’t be able to feign surprise if they make it.

    If the US elects Trump and France elects Le Pen, the Western world will retreat into 30s style autarky and that’s when our troubles really begin. Radical Islam isn’t the real threat. We have China looming on our horizon. Only as a united force with an integrated and flourishing internal market can Europe hope to hold its own in a world economy dominated by Chinese capital. We colonized and humiliated them in the 19th century. If we’re not careful, our turn will come…

    • Inspector General

      “We” you say. No, you’re not one of us. That’s for sure…

      • Tutanekai

        And that’s exactly the reason why, if the political views embraced on this blog ever come to power, Europe is doomed to fragmentation and decline. Quarreling tribes have always been the prey of colonizing empires.

        • Inspector General

          Your only concern about the West undergoing a well overdue swing to the right is the blasted concessions given to you homosexual deviants being flushed down the lavatory. So it’s “Let’s all worry about the Chinese, or climate change or holes in the ozone”. Anything but what society is doing to itself right here, right now.

          You takes us all for thicks, sir!

          • The Explorer

            Tutanekai says Christian political views are driven by what’s good for Christians. Tutanekai’s political views are driven by what’s good for gays.

          • Inspector General

            Christ’s way which he would have us follow just happens to be the best on offer to humanity. Whether you believe in him or not. It just is…

          • Tutanekai

            Your only concern is that the LGBT community now enjoys equal rights, which in your bigoted hatred you want to suppress no matter what the consequences. The Chinese, climate change and holes in the ozone layer, or any other problem (apart from damned Muslims, of course), are as nothing compared to your visceral need to pound on the gays.

            I take you for what you are, a bigoted old fool.

          • Inspector General

            We all live and learn. It might surprise you that LGBT have had equal rights since 1967 in the UK.

            However, Mother Nature is not so approving. You fellows with HIV if caught at 20 could expect to live until 60. After that age, all bets are off. You see, HIV is a death sentence. Truly. All modern medicine at the moment can do is to give you a reprieve. If you have other ailments, medical science is finding it’s not an idea to be taking anti HIV with what you then need. Scary stuff, what!

          • Tutanekai

            Life is a death sentence, or were you planning on living forever?

          • The Explorer

            Life is indeed a death sentence. However, there is a difference between dying at 2 and dying at 92.

        • The Explorer

          It seems then, we have three choices: to be part of the German Empire, the Chinese Empire, or the Islamic Empire.

          • William Lewis

            Or mediate (triangulate) between the three in typical British tradition of yore. If only we had the calibre of leaders to exercise such political machinations.

          • chiefofsinners

            What about the Dickie Bird? Oh, sorry, umpire.

          • Tutanekai

            No, we can choose a united Europe where German power is counterbalanced by the UK and France. We’d have that now if Britain wasn’t such an uncommitted European partner.

            If Britain and perhaps also France leave the EU, there won’t be any more EU. Germany will dominate the European economy as it always has when it’s been unified. Other nations will raise tariff barriers to protect themselves. And we’ll all be on our own to stand or fall against the twin threats of radical Islam and Chinese economic might.

            United we stand, divided we fall.

          • Inspector General

            You do come out with some real shit at times [Ahem]

          • Tutanekai

            You’re utterly obsessed with men’s back passages, aren’t you? What an odd kind of Christian you are.

          • The Explorer

            There was an EU of sorts before Britain was a member. What’s to stop that continuing? France, after all, wanted to keep Britain out in the first place.
            Germany will dominate the European economy whether there’s an EU or no EU.
            But I’m intrigued by this Islamic and Chinese threat. You’re the one who says an Islamic threat is the delusion of fevered Christian minds. You’re the one who says belief in the Chines threat is a form of racism akin to the C19 delusion about the yellow peril. So you see, nothing to worry about on either count.

          • Tutanekai

            Germany is united now and much stronger than it was in the days before Britain joined the EU. The balance of power has altered and it will take more than just France to keep the Germans in check.

            And as I’ve said elsewhere, the threat of radical Islam is about terrorism, not about colonization and invasion. The threat from China is purely economic.

          • The Explorer

            “the threat of radical Islam is about terrorism, not about colonization”. You may have said it, but that doesn’t make it true. Many would say that is flawed analysis: rather, there is a very genuine danger of colonisation, non-integration, and terrorism arising within that context. As in the planner of the latest attack being Belgian, not from outside Europe.
            China’s threat to Europe may be purely economic, but not necessarily for the world as a whole. War in the East over oil-fields at sea is a real possibility.

          • Tutanekai

            And just because you say there is a threat of colonization does not make it true either. All the data points to a leveling off of the Muslim population at under 10%, and unless it’s in possession of vastly superior technology, a minority of less than 10% cannot seize control of any country or federation. It can make its presence felt and even influence public policy, but it cannot dominate. That’s the absurdity of your argument. Tell me exactly how fewer than 10 in 100 can tell the other 90 what to do unless it’s at the point of a gun. And if you then claim that every Muslim in Britain is armed and dangerous, I’ll know for sure that I’m dealing with a paranoid fool.

          • The Explorer

            We’ve been over all this before. It’s like one of Dante’s circles of Hell: dreary repetition of the same ground.
            1. The accepted figure is not 10%. It’s 18-20% by 2050, and then escalating sharply.
            2. Don’t forget new brides from Pakistan who keep the birth rate high.
            3. Rates of birth are not the only issue; consider also the demographics of age. The Muslim concentration is in the younger age groups. As the older indigenous Europeans die off, the proportions of who’s who in the respective populations will change. That’s why 2050 is predicted as a sort of watershed.

        • Inspector General

          Welcome to your future. What shall we do first then? Scrap the bizarre abomination of gay marriage or throw the transvestites out of the British Army. Your decision…

          • Tutanekai

            Don’t count your chickens, old bigot. There’s a small matter of an election to win first. UKIP isn’t very good at those, remember. We’re all getting sick of hearing “but we woz robbed!” every time they fail to convince the public to back them.

            The US and France may be swinging to the far right, but if you want to get the UK moving that way, you’ve got your work cut out for you.

          • Inspector General

            “old bigot”!

            How very Linus…

          • The Explorer

            His very turn of phrase.

          • Ivan M

            He is also a booster of European integration. This seems to be by way of compensation for his frivolity in other areas. I am a fan.

          • Pubcrawler

            There’s a lot of ‘deja vu’ on display this evening.

          • William Lewis

            Yes, we don’t really need Linus back now that we’ve got Tutsy to take up the slack.

        • bluedog

          ”Quarreling tribes have always been the prey of colonizing empires.” An astute observation. We hear so much about the misery of failed states, which in reality simply become commercial opportunities that other powers exploit. Everything that Putin does seems to follow this pattern, including his Syrian foray. The West is so emasculated by criticism of its previous colonial exploits that it seems unlikely to revert to earlier practice.

          • Tutanekai

            We may soon be those quarreling tribes. If Scotland and Wales decide to go their own way. If we decide to leave the EU. If France does the same. If Catalonia and the Basque Country break up Spain. Who’ll protect us from radical Islam, or the Chinese, or even Putin then?

          • The Explorer

            But there is no threat from radical Islam or the Chinese. You’ve said so on previous threads.

          • Tutanekai

            The threat from radical Islam is one of terrorism, not colonization or invasion. The threat from China is economic. The only threat of armed conflict comes from a breakup of the European Union that will reignite old national rivalries and ethnic disputes.

            You want to destroy the very thing that has given us peace for over 60 years. Not only are you deluded, you’re irresponsible with it.

          • The Explorer

            The survival of the EU seems to be reigniting ethnic disputes, as minorities fear losing their identity in some amorphous whole.

          • Tutanekai

            There has not been a single war or ethnic conflict within the borders of the EU, or EEC as it was, since its inception.

          • The Explorer

            That’s probably why it’s building up to it again.

          • bluedog

            Thank NATO, not the EU.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            Your attitude reminds me of the aristocratic Chinese general who, when a rebellion occurred at the end of Ming Dynasty, opened the gate of the Great Wall and allowed the Manchus to conquer China rather than give way to the lower classes.

        • Ivan M

          Quareling tribes are yesterday’s problems as far the Europeans are concerned. There are no circumstances today under which the Europeans are going to be marching against each other. For one thing all sides lack the surplus population to make it happen. Sure there will be some feinting and jousting, perhaps with the Russians, but nothing that will lead to large scale bloodshed, since all are aware that they stand to lose heavily, with no gain for the white races.

          In its present form, the EU functions as an agent of Muslim colonisation and has to be overthrown for the good of its peoples.

          • Tutanekai

            So what happened in Yugoslavia? What’s happening in the Ukraine? If you think conflicts between European nations won’t happen if the EU no longer exists, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. And whether or not we fight amongst ourselves, others will take advantage of our fragmentation.

            And as for “Muslim colonization”, the term is ludicrous. It’s the old racist trope of “they’ll breed like rabbits and take us over”. Nothing about the demographics of Muslim populations in Europe suggests this to be true. Everything points towards a leveling off of their numbers at under 10%.

            This isn’t the first time malevolent bigots have targeted minorities and tried to whip up popular feeling against them. The Muslim community may not be completely blameless. It needs to put its house in order, but it is not responsible for all our ills. Anyone who believes it is lives in the same kind of paranoid and delusional world inhabited by Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

          • Ivan M

            Yugoslavia was unfinished business from WWII. Things fell apart with the death of Tito. They have a stable configuration now, though the Serbs may have dreams of taking back Kosovo. The Ukraine is actually illustrative of your idea of foreign interference when the centre does not hold. Kick the bloody Americans out and they will come to terms with the Russians, since Finlandisation is the appropriate model for their type of configuration.

            The Europeans in the first place owe Muslims precisely nothing and in the second place developed their cultures in opposition to the Muslims. Even back in the Crusading days, the idea that European women went around as “uncovered meat” was the subject of some comment by the Muslims. If the borders are sealed against Muslims, you may reach some form of stability in a few years. In the meantime though have you hugged your Muslim today? Seeing that their alienation and greviance-mongering, shows no sign of abating, I leave it to you to make a start.

          • Tutanekai

            Borders won’t be sealed against Muslims. How could you do it? Passports don’t tell you what somebody’s religious affiliation is. Muslims don’t have crescents tattooed on their bodies. All you can do is judge what religion they belong to by their ethnic origins, so you’ll have to base your immigration policy on racial profiling. In other words, if you’re white, you can come in. If you’re brown or black, you stay out.

            That will never happen because we know what happens to societies that permit it. Look at the pre-Civil Rights era US South. Look at the apartheid era South Africa.

            Try introducing such a policy and see what happens. Firstly you’ll need to have a democratic mandate to do it. Is there any chance of UKIP winning a majority at the next parliamentary elections? If not, who’s going to introduce such a policy? And secondly, who will enforce it in the face of massive civil disobedience? The army? So Britain will become a military dictatorship, will it? Now there’s a recipe for civil war and disaster. Be careful what you wish for, you may find you get more than you bargain for.

          • Merchantman

            Apparently Saudi- Arabia borders work on the basis of religious profiling and they needlessly to say are happy with that arrangement. They ask what religion you are. The only ones usually allowed to pass are ‘the people of the book’.
            Nothing wrong with selectivity but a blanket ban- no way.

        • Hzle

          “Quarreling tribes have always been the prey of colonizing empires”

          Exactly wrong. Quarreling tribes produced the empires

    • The Explorer

      If the average American is brainwashed, it’s not with religion. That changed with the 60’s. You’re living in the past.

      • Tutanekai

        Where are you living? Ever been to the American Midwest? Or the central valley of California. Or, your imaginary god forbid, to the South?

        Religion is alive and well and addling the brains of many millions of Americans. The kind who will vote for Trump. Whether there are enough of them to get him to the White House is uncertain, but the current climate of fear and xenophobia works to the advantage of populists and demagogues. Time will tell.

        • Inspector General

          Belief in a creator is addled, is it! What about men like you who do unspeakable lower bowel activity. The finest of the fine, are they…

          • Tutanekai

            Obsessed by gay sex, I see. There’s a name for people like you. In times gone past you would have been called “latent”. But now you’re just a closet case.

            “Good Christian men” who rail against what gays do in bed are almost always trying to hide their own proclivities. Does the name Ted Haggard mean anything to you?

          • IrishNeanderthal

            I must admit, the way they are going on about it does tend to “aburinate” me (and others) somewhat.

            But on that matter, one should get one’s history right. Labouchere, whose amendment brought down Alan Turing, was an agnostic, while Lord Queensberry, nemesis of Oscar Wilde, scandalized society by being or at least appearing to be, an Atheist.

        • The Explorer

          Yep, I’ve been to them all. Religion may be addling the brains of millions of Americans, but there are lots of Americans. Don’t forget they are the product of their education system (which is why their performance is consistently sliding down on the international education league table) so that non-religion has addled the brains of even more of them.

          PS Numbers are meaningless without a context. Is 2.5 million dead a large number? No, if you’re talking about China. Yes, if you’re talking about Cambodia: which had a population of only 6.5 million before Pol Pot reduced it to 4 million.

    • IanCad

      “— the barely educated, deeply ignorant and religiously brainwashed average American —“
      Amazing isn’t it, that such a race of savages has the largest economy in the world? Can’t for the life of me understand how, in the fields of medicine, agriculture, science and literature; the arts and industry, such a backward society could have achieved so much.

      • William Lewis

        Don’t go bothering Tuti with obvious counter examples. It detracts from the prejudiced narrative.

      • Royinsouthwest

        I agree in general with the point that you are making but over the course of its history many of the innovations in America from the telephone to the Apollo Moon landings were made, at least in part, by immigrants. That does not mean, however, that all recent “innovations” by immigrants are desirable.

        • Inspector General

          Ah yes, one recalls the contribution made by the Red Indian to human culture, which was…nothing

          • Dreadnaught

            Without the tribal cultures the first settlers would not have survived. Many didn’t of course – thought they knew the land and climate better than the locals.

          • Inspector General

            Fortunately, the stone age inhabitants of America continued to genocide each other when they came into contact. A fact that was exploited for two centuries, such as by hiring one tribal member to work against a different tribe.

          • Dreadnaught

            And we have fared better – how many dead in WW2 55million?

          • Inspector General

            Different situation. Don’t cry over the Red Indian. Nothing to cry over…

          • Dreadnaught

            You are an a delight at times Iggy old boy – at least you are consistent and maintain some semblance of stout British humour to boot.

          • Inspector General

            Watch out for one’s latest book, Dredders. “The Inspector General’s Bumper Book For Empire Boys annual 2016”

            This years main topic, “Worthless peoples of the world”‘. Features Islam AND Johnny Crowfoot, who now apparently lives in an alcohol abuse refuge…

          • Dreadnaught

            Chortle!

          • chiefofsinners

            Alright, tobacco turned out to have its drawbacks, but what of the potato? Are you not an Irelander of sorts? Do you not owe your very existence to the magnificent tuber?

          • Inspector General

            Think you’ve plunged a bit too far south, old man…

          • chiefofsinners

            You are so uncouth.

          • Inspector General

            Spud and tobacco not really what is now the USA

        • bluedog

          But aren’t all Americans immigrants?

          • Inspector General

            One recalls when Col Custer was about to set off with the US 7th Cavalry, a small fellow was tugging at the great man’s jodhpurs and pleading “please Mr Custer, I don’t want to go”

          • carl jacobs

            American soldiers do not wear “jodhpurs.”

          • Dreadnaught

            Gen Patton did in the movie.

          • carl jacobs

            Riding Breeches. “Jodhpurs” are worn by snooty German cavalry officers whose last names begin with “von.”

          • Inspector General

            And the imperial Indian Army, sir!

          • The Explorer

            I looked up jodhpurs, and one definition was riding breeches.
            This is not a dog, it’s a chien.

          • bluedog
          • Inspector General

            A silver star will be pinned on your fur, clever hound…

          • bluedog

            Deputy Dawg?

          • carl jacobs

            That was a thoroughly obnoxious song. I will never have that 1:30 of my life back.

          • bluedog

            It was a smash hit in its day, a cultural gem, reflective of the deep British admiration for all things American.

          • Inspector General

            {SQUEALS!}

          • carl jacobs

            I assume it has some passing acquaintance with that mythological concept called “British Humor”.

          • michaelkx

            very good the old one are the best

          • Royinsouthwest

            The immigrants I was referring to were people who were not born in the United States.

          • bluedog

            The team that put a man on the moon learned their trade at Peenemunde in the Third Reich. They were gently kidnapped before the Red Army got to them first.

      • Tutanekai

        Talent in the US is concentrated on the coasts. Just about everything in between, which comprises the majority of the US population, is zombie land.

        The only achievement the Mid-West and the South have to be proud of is world-beating obesity.

        If the US starts being driven from the centre, we’ll have well and truly entered into the age of The Walking Dead. With Donald Trump as its president.

        • The Explorer

          Just as a matter of interest, what proportion of the current US population do you think is of European extraction?

          • Tutanekai

            Ah yes, as with all far right populists, it was only a matter of time before you introduced racial profiling into the conversation.

            “Oh no, those evil Blacks and Arabs and Hispanics are breeding like rabbits and swamping us virtuous Caucasians! It’s the end of the world!!!”

          • The Explorer

            I’ll repeat the question. Just as a matter of interest, what proportion of the current US population do you think is of European extraction?
            I’m not asking for a value judgement; just for a percentage.

          • Tutanekai

            You tell me. I have no idea about US demographics. Is such a statistic even kept? And why should it be important? If I listen to your arguments about the EU, there’s no such thing as “European”. You say that we’re either British or French or German, and we have nothing in common, so why should it matter what percentage of the US population comes from a European background when European is a purely geographical term?

          • The Explorer

            ‘European’ as in “having its origins in Europe” rather than, say, Asia or Africa. Americans can say they’re doing a ‘European tour’ and other Americans understand what they mean.

            Such a statistic is kept. It was a key feature of Clinton’s 1998 Portland State University speech about those of European origin becoming the largest minority within the US.
            In 1965 (before the new Immigration Act ) around 88% of Americans were of European origin. It is now 62%. By 2040, it is estimated that it will be 48%.
            My point is, some of those you dismiss so cavalierly are not white Americans.

          • Tutanekai

            We’re all of African origin. Europe is no more your people’s home than any other continent or region where they may have stopped off during the migrations that have marked humanity’s history. And who knows where you’ll end up next? The islands you call Britain had another name before your people settled there, and will have yet another in the future when they’ve moved on.

            The smallness of UKIP’s agenda is the most depressing thing about it. They define themselves and their identity by the patch of mud they happen to think they possess right now. Well, let’s see how long you can hold on to it, shall we? Between ravening Muslim hordes and the transgenderfication of all your children (even royalty approves – look what a whale of a time Kate Middleclass had with traders in drag the other day) and the ravages of increasingly violent storms and floods, your ownership is under dispute.

            Time to pack your bags and try your luck in Trump’s ‘Murricah? Or Le Pen’s France Blanche? Or how about you invent a time machine and go back to Hitler’s Reich? Oh no, that didn’t turn out too well, did it…?

          • The Explorer

            We may all be of African origin, but that was a long time ago. I’m going by the principle of the most recent address.

            The people who emigrated to Virginia, North Carolina and New England didn’t have Africa as their most recent address. They’d all been born in Europe. Their descendants were the descendants of people born in Europe.

            They displaced the indigenous population who are known as Native Americans (even though they may have originally come from Africa via Asia). At some point, slaves were brought in from Africa. Until 1965, these two groups made up (more or less) the 12% who were not the descendants of people whose ancestors were born in Europe.

            Difficult concept, I know, but I hope that sort of clarifies it.

          • Tutanekai

            You see everything through the lens of the kind of xenophobia and racism embodied by UKIP, so I think UKIP has a lot to do with what you’re saying, no matter what country you’re saying it about.

            And if it’s all about “last address”, then US Hispanics are not European because their last address was, in the vast majority of cases, in Central or South America.

            There may be a small number of those considered as Hispanic in the territories wrested from Spain by the US who could claim to be European according to your reckoning. If their ancestors came directly from Spain, they’re European. If they spent as little as one generation somewhere else but Europe, they are not.

            As the vast majority of Hispanics are not Europeans, we can therefore consider the category to be a non-European one, allowing of course for the odd exception, which any category must allow for, because one size can never fit all.

            So what is it that gives Europeans the right to form an uncontested majority in the US to the exclusion of all other categories, who must never be allowed to challenge European hegemony?

            It’s called “white privilege”, isn’t it? Otherwise expressed as “we built this country so we get to control it and if you don’t like that idea, go find somewhere else to live”. Might is right, in other words.

            Are you really surprised that a challenge issued on those terms is being taken up in the same terms by those who lose by it? If Muslims have no right to be in the US or the UK because their last address wasn’t a European one, what’s to stop them from saying “we don’t like those rules, and that’s certainly not how things have worked for the past few generations, so we’re going to refuse to abide by them”?

          • The Explorer

            I will concede that ‘European’ is potentially misleading, given that many Mexicans have some Spanish ancestry.
            Research undertaken by an American firm called Policylink suggested that White Americans will be in a minority (although the largest minority group) by 2040.
            Its predictions for Britain are that indigenous Whites will be in a minority by 2066, with White children being in a minority by 2021. The birth figures for London in 2012, in which there were fewer White than non-White births, seem to bear this out.
            I mention all this because your depiction of talent at each coast and nothing much in between seemed to me to smack of the demographics of 195 rather than of 2015. And if I really were the sort of individual your fantasies have conjured up, why one Earth would I want to emigrate to America? It will have its non-White majority far sooner than Britain will.

          • The Explorer

            You appear to be saying that nations do not have a right to the space they occupy. Does everyone have a right to live anywhere they choose?

            Would you follow this through with home ownership? Abolish it, and have all housing owned by the local council: to be allocated according to family size? Otherwise, there might be disputes as to who has a right to what. Build everything uniform to one pattern that varies only according to size so that the politics of envy does not arise.

            Or take kids away at birth and have them raised by the State: family size won’t be an issue because there will be no nuclear families. In other words: ‘Brave New World’.

          • Tutanekai

            I don’t waste my time on foolish “if I ruled the world” daydreams. I don’t rule the world, so I don’t spend my time remaking it in my imagination to suit my own personal prejudices and beliefs.

            As far as I can see, that’s just about all Christians do. And then they try their utmost to impose their bleak and monochrome, one-size-fits-all vision on everyone else.

            In the average Christian’s imagination, it seems that everyone lives in a white picket fence nuclear family – whether they want to or not. There’s no room for any other kind of existence, except perhaps for the especially sociopathic and maladjusted among you who dream of holy celibacy and grandstanding your way through life posing as a living saint.

            The reality of the world is that equality doesn’t exist and, given our propensity for greed and selfishness, it probably never will. Our opportunities in life will continue to depend on where we were born, on the family we were born into, and on our particular talents and abilities. A child born in Syria does not have the advantages of a child born in Britain. This is why Syrians want to come to Britain, so their children too can benefit from the advantages our country offers.

            You want to keep them out, but you offer no justification beyond “I woz ‘ere first so bugger off”. That’s your political manifesto in a nutshell, and it isn’t a convincing one. History shows us that hiding behind fences is not a long term solution to any problem.

          • CliveM

            Hispanics?

            Well none of them will be of European origin!

          • Tutanekai

            Hispanic in its American usage refers to Latin Americans, most of whom are not of European origin. It doesn’t define a race so much as a highly distinct cultural group with its own language and customs that are highly resistant to assimilation.

            The fact that most of these people are darker skinned makes the term Hispanic just as racially motivated as any other, even if it isn’t possible to talk about an Hispanic race per se. In the minds of Americans, Hispanics are a group apart and are targeted as such for marketing and political purposes. They’re grouped with Blacks and Arabs as “invaders”, which is ironic when you consider that this is the very term that best describes White Americans. But the elite always views competing groups as inferior and uses derogatory terms to describe them.

          • CliveM

            I certainly refers to culture of Spanish origin and not race, but a significant number will be of European origin (largely because the original native was largely wiped out). But yes blacks etc can also be Hispanic.

          • Tutanekai

            The original Amerindian populations were wiped out in the Caribbean, and some coastal areas of South America, but they most certainly were not elsewhere.

            Have you never been to Mexico? Or Guatemala? Or the interior of Brazil? You may not see many Amerindian looking faces in Rio de Janeiro and Buenos Aires, but elsewhere you’ll see little else. Go to California and you’ll see Mayan and Aztec faces literally everywhere. The term Hispanic was not coined to describe a race, but as so many of those who belong to the group are of a specific racial origin, it has certainly come to have racial overtones.

          • Sam

            Dude

            When I did this briefly in my history degree, I understood that the Spanish inter married and or had a degree of concubineage with the “native” women, alongside Catholic missionary works to “civilise” the new world . Small pox and other European diseases wiped out most of the actual Aztecs and Incas. The black populations were brought over as slaves, something which the English replicated later.

            Wiki says :

            “90% of Latin America’s modern population being persons of at least partial Iberian ancestry, in the form of criollos, mestizos, and mulattos).”

            Also interesting from a Jewish point of view is that about a fifth of the population of Spain and Portugal and a tenth of south Americans are apparently descendents of Sephardic “conversos”- those forced to convert to Christianity- from the inquisition times. In Jewish law they’re called Bnei Anusim, children of forced conversion. They’d be seen as ” seeds of Israel” or Zera Yisrael (people who have Jewish lineage, but who aren’t Jews: you could say , in a different context Archbishop Justin Welby , who has Jewish heritage but is not according to Jewish law a Jew, is an example).

          • CliveM

            Hi Sam

            Yes thanks. The point I was trying to make was simply that you can’t lump Hispanics lazily as non European. As you say the majority have some European heritage.

            Didn’t know that about Justin Welby! Don’t tell JR.

          • Sam

            Dude

            To be clear Welby isn’t Jewish according to Judaism. He’s just got Jewish lineage via his grandfather , who was a Jewish German immigrant who sold ostrich feathers till the great war , where they Anglo sized the surname….

          • CliveM

            It’s ok I did understand.

          • Sam

            I’m a fountain of knowledge. And I’m bored.

          • CliveM

            Lol!

          • Sam

            Well I’ve been coordinating where to store a ridiculous amount of home made chicken soup for a certain relative….. But that beats having a meeting with the insurance broker.

          • CliveM

            Eat it, it won’t be missed.

          • Hzle

            You mean the broker, obviously?

          • Sam

            Dude

            On American bit, yes I agree. After all Spanish and Portuguese are European languages like English. Albeit with different accents and rules in America. Same goes for the Quebecois in Canada. Their French is much more informal than metropolitan France ….. As I told when I went to Canada. But then the Quebecois at least don’t see themselves as French, but as French speaking Canadians /Quebecois. A nuance I didn’t realise and got told off by my tour guide. I guess Americans speak English, but aren’t English .. Thankfully she was in all other respects a babe.

          • CliveM

            ‘A babe’

            The ultimate accolade!

          • Sam

            Indeed. I seem to have this thing for French descended , sometime speaking French women. Although my French is like the inspector from allo allo.

          • Sam

            I do have high standards….

          • Pubcrawler

            ” I guess Americans speak English”

            Up to a point, Lord Copper.

          • The Explorer

            Chicano Studies refers to ‘Euro-Americans’ and does not include Chicanos in that category, despite their Spanish admixture.

          • CliveM

            Identity/race politics is a minefield, particularly in the USA. When it’s got to the stage of people now “self identifying” as black, you can simply state the bald facts.
            It’s like saying Obama is the US’s first black President, when really mixed race would be more accurate.

          • The Explorer

            Chicano studies makes the point that Euro-Americans are those without any Indian ancestry. As to the minefield, Chicano studies became subject to the problem of sexism and now has to call itself Chicano/Chicana studies, apart from the problem that the younger generation prefer to call themselves Latinos, and how to accommodate LGBTQ who want to get in on the act as well.

        • IanCad

          I understand that you must have never visited the mid-West and South.

        • Hzle

          “The only achievement the Mid-West and the South have to be proud of is world-beating obesity”

          I find it hard to take people who talk like this seriously.

          It’s quite fashionable for a certain group – themselves nowhere near the top rung – to belittle the intelligence of everyone who doesn’t vote the same way as them (and it usually boils down to nothing more intellectually sophisticated than a simple matter of 2-party politics)

    • carl jacobs

      Good to see the old Linus back. It’s times like this that I still half believe he’s French.

      • Sam

        He’s Linus?

        Ps : not all frenchies hate Yanks…. my brother in law is French (and Ladino) speaking from Moroccan and my significant other’s mother is French from Algeria (father Russian Hasidic) .

        • carl jacobs

          not all frenchies hate Yanks.

          Hey if Linus King Tut can litter this thread with dirt ignorant stereotypes about Americans, then I can toss in some ignorant stereotypes about the French.

          It’s only fair.

          • Sam

            Dude

            I’ll not stand in your way .

    • johnb1945

      The one saving grace regarding China is the growth of Christianity.

      • Tutanekai

        Ah yes, and what do Christianity and pre-handover Hong Kong have in common? Both are/were capitalist pimples on the communist backside of China.

        The Chinese dealt with Hong Kong by assimilation. They’ll do the same with Christianity. Look at the history of the religion in that part of the world. Every wave of Christian evangelisation has been assimilated and turned into something uniquely Chinese. From the very first evangelisers down to the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of the 19th century and the state-sponsored Chinese Church today, Christianity has never been able to compete with Chinese culture and traditions, but has always been assimilated and modified until it bears little resemblance to the religion we know in the West.

        Your Chinese Christians of today will become your State Philosophy of Celestial Prosperity and Filial Piety followers of tomorrow. They may try to convert you, or they may just shrug their shoulders and content themselves with flooding your markets with cheap, substandard products that force your own industry out of business and render you economically dependent. But either way, they won’t be professing the same faith as you. They have other ideas, and they’ll act on them.

        • johnb1945

          Well, to some extent that is to be expected. That is the Chinese way.
          You missed capitalism and free speech which they have or are assimilating into Chinese versions.
          If the Chinese Church is essentially Christian who cares?
          Christianity thrives because of its universalism, its ability to integrate into diverse cultures.

          This is because it really has few absolutes in its doctrine, and those it has are easy to adopt and meld into an existing cultural framework.

          Contrast with Islam which, which requires a cultural takeover.

  • chiefofsinners

    If we refuse to admit Trump, can we keep Tyson Fury?

    • William Lewis

      Swap GOP

    • Tutanekai

      Don’t be too keen to hold up Fury as a spokesman for your cause. It’s early days yet.

      You can forgive homophobic numbskull sportsmen for their homophobic tirades because, quite frankly, they’ve probably never thought about the issue – about any issue really – before they sound off. Once the consequences of their actions are explained to them, they pretty much always end up recanting. It’s in their interests to. What company will sponsor a known homophobe? What sports federation will want him as a member? These people may be pretty thick – you don’t excel in sports if your mind is occupied by more abstract issues – but they’re smart enough to know where the money comes from. Let’s see how long Fury takes before starting to backpedal. Furiously.

      The only publicly adamant homophobes nowadays are politicians who are targeting a demotic base, and religionists. Fury may be a Christian, but he’s also a sportsman. If he wants to continue competing at the highest level, he’s going to have to face a few realities. Once he has, he may no longer be the perfect spokesman for your cause.

      • chiefofsinners

        The point I was attempting to make is that every country has its homegrown Donald Trumps. Like them or loathe them, you can’t ban thought and someone will always say what lots of others are thinking.

        • Tutanekai

          You can’t ban freedom of expression. But that works two ways. If you can’t ban someone from saying what they think, you can’t ban others from being offended by that and from taking action as a result.

          Example: you have the right to call your boss an idiot, but if you exercise that right, he has the right to take offence and fire you.

          Fury has the right to say what he likes about gay people, but Fury’s sponsors have the right to be outraged by his statements and to stop sponsoring him as a result.

          That’s what you don’t like, isn’t it? Having to deal with the consequences of free speech. You want to be able to say what you like without anyone else objecting to it and taking action against you.

          You may want it, but you won’t get it. Everyone has to deal with the consequences of what he says. Fury is in the process of finding that out. Let’s see how his statements change as a result, shall we?

          • chiefofsinners

            Persecution is something Jesus guaranteed His followers, so Christians accept it. Just don’t kid yourself that you’re tolerant.

        • dannybhoy

          “and someone will always say what lots of others are thinking.”
          And I think he has a lot of silent support.

          • chiefofsinners

            I couldn’t possibly comment.

    • dannybhoy

      Let Trump in AND keep Tyson…
      He’s a gypsy, a boxer, (hopefully) pays his taxes, and he won’t be the first to make rash remarks.
      Just be grateful you’re not a sweet young gypsy girl…

      • chiefofsinners

        How do know I’m not? Cup o’ tea Danny boy?

        • dannybhoy

          Giggles.

          • chiefofsinners

            The resemblance is uncanny, Danny.

          • Pubcrawler

            Can’t see that being made today: I’m sure some niche group of humourless narcissists would find grounds for offence.

  • Trump isn’t an ignorant chump, he’s well educated. But he knows what goes down with the general public. I think that he and Boris would get on well running our two countries. And, as suggested elsewhere today, in a couple of years time, I’d love to read headlines “President Trump meets President Le Pen”!

  • Russell Brown

    No Trump is not ignorant. Islam is a belief system not a race and he is quite entitled to point out the obvious (it is a violent belief system) and people should change it.

    • Sam

      Eh? What’s a babe like Alex Jones doing advising Trump?

    • dannybhoy

      Common sense tells us that if (moderate/nominal) Islamic communities continue to grow at their current rate all Western nations will change. So the big question is will democracy and our traditions and values continue ir be swept away for ever.
      Give me your best guesses!

      • Manfarang

        My first roommate at university was a Muslim, he was more like Tariq Ali than Anjem Choudary. In those days Pakistani immigrants were more than willing to adopt an English way of life-a pint at the pub and all that sort of thing. I think I know what happened.

        • Ivan M

          What happened?

          • Manfarang

            Someone gave a “Rivers of Blood” speech.

          • Ivan M

            And they have been holding a greviance ever since then? That was more than two generations ago. Those Pakis sure have long memories.

          • Manfarang

            The Speech was aimed mostly at immigrants from the Caribbean but your P word sums up problem, add events in the Middle East and the end of the cold war for the full picture.

          • Anton

            Don’t blame the whistleblower! Read that speech through and be aware that in his personal relations there was not a trace of racism in Powell.

          • Manfarang

            Wide-grinning piccaninnies sounds pretty racist to me.

          • Anton

            The quote was actually “charming wide-grinning piccaninnies” and in 1968 ‘piccaninnie’ was simply a white term for a black child. I believe you are not making allowances for the changing meanings and connotations of words. (What does “Suffer little children” mean in the King James Bible and today?) Powell showed not a trace of racial prejudice in the assistance he rendered to his constituents.

          • Manfarang

            I remember the speech well, the term wasn’t a nice way to describe kids whether they were charming or otherwise.
            As regards his constituents, in those days not so many approached their MP for help. In Northern Ireland one of his constituents who lived near him was flooded out , when she knocked on his door he told her,”Write to me at the House of Commons!” He was rather aloof.

          • Anton

            The word has changed connotation – I am old enough to remember it too – and you are declining to acknowledge that. Powell was certainly aloof – I was at a reception with him – but that is not what was at issue, was it?

      • Anna

        That’s exactly what will happen – unless there is a large scale Christian revival in Europe. So we must earnestly pray for the revival.

        • dannybhoy

          Yes indeed, pray and use our rights as citizens to vote/email/phone those in authority to safeguard the values that guide us and the freedoms that so many of our ancestors fought for..
          So tell me Anna,
          Why is it that so many numpties and airheads think continued immigration with no assimilation or affirmation of our history traditions and values is less important than being politically correct supporters of continued immigration?

          • Anna

            My view is that when people turn their backs on God, they lose their hold on common sense. The fool says in his heart,
            “There is no God.”

  • IanCad

    Let’s give Trump a break. He is a patriotic man. As such, the Constitution of the United States means much to him. I can only presume that he embraces it, recognizes it as the highest law of the land, and under that enlightened authority would perform his role as President according to its precepts.

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof–“

    All very fine, that is, if the citizens of the land accept that there is a separation between church and state. That would certainly be no problem for the Christians of the land. Almost to a denomination they cleave to the teaching of rendering to Caesar what he demands and to God what He requires.

    In Islam such division seems not to be on the cards. the Imams and Mullahs exercise over their adherents an authority and conformity that allows of little discretion.

    A generation ago the Catholic church was deemed to rule with similar vigour over their same flocks. To such an extent that, as a candidate, John Kennedy was forced to make it abundantly clear that, were he to attain the Presidency; the Pope of Rome would have no influence in the exercise of his office. His election was evidence that the electorate took him at his word. Had he been of the Jesuit Order perhaps it would have not been so. The principle of equivocation and the belief that the ends justify the means would have been too much for the liberty loving Americans to accept.

    In Islam the notions of Kitman and taqiya mirror the, then, perceived Jesuit modus operandi; and, if understood in that light would make the pledge of fidelity to their adoptive country to be of little worth.

    Trump maybe looking at the controversy from this angle. If so, his concerns are valid and need addressing.

    • Sam

      Dude

      so basically it’s okay only to have evangelical protestant Christianity as the religion of the US?

      I dread to think about the hysteria that would be generated in some quarters if there was ever a Jewish POTUS. Mind you when Britain had a (Sephardic) Jewish prime minister we saw:

      Social reform
      Purchase of the Suez canal which pissed the French off
      Queen Victoria made empress of India
      Britain at her zenith as a super power
      Extension of the franchise
      Prosperity

      *smelling salts for Johnny Rottenbrough*

      • IanCad

        Not at all. Religions must recognize the precedence of the Constitution. It is the oath of office.
        As to the prospect of a Jewish president; I’m sure it will come one day.
        There are three Jewish justices on the Supreme Court, six (I believe) Catholics, and no Protestant justices.
        Evangelical Christians do not rule America.

        • Sam

          I’m pulling your chain…. and enjoying Hanukkah.

          • IanCad

            More power to you Sam! Enjoy and blessings!

          • Sam

            Dude

            Thank you.

            I’ve been reading conspiracy theories for years. Partly for general amusement and party self protection , given Jews are often the alleged ringleaders of whatever bullshit springs into people’s heads .

            I’m surprised none of the outlier websites are suggesting Trump is a democrat/mossad agent who is really trying to get Hillary Clinton elected…. Okay I haven’t checked out Dave Iyke yet…

          • IanCad

            Sam, be surprised no longer.
            A quick search brought this up:

            Anything that can be imagined is bound to have a fulfillment in this insane world.

      • dannybhoy

        “I dread to think about the hysteria that would be generated in some quarters if there was ever a Jewish POTUS.”
        Well according to some sources they’ve got a Muslim one right now, so maybe your luck’s changing..?
        Although I don’t know how they’ll cope shutting shop on a Friday night..

        • Sam

          Dude

          Trump isn’t Jewish, but Presbyterian. One of his daughters from his first marriage( Donald having been married three times and divorced twice ) converted to Judaism.

          • dannybhoy

            You thought I was referring to ‘Moshe’ Trump??
            Naaaaaah.
            He’s too liberal.

          • Sam

            So dude, is Genghis Khan standing in this election? (:

          • dannybhoy

            You mean Genghis Kahan??

          • Sam

            Dude

            Temüjin or Genghis Khan:

            http://www.britannica.com/biography/Genghis-Khan

          • dannybhoy

            Or even Genghis Kahan…

          • Sam

            What ? What are you talking about?

          • dannybhoy

            Kahan is a variation of the word “Kahane “(as in Meir Kahane), which is an Anglicised spelling of “Cohen”…

            Geddit?

          • Sam

            Awesome dude! Shabbat shalom!

          • dannybhoy

            Shabbat Shalom Sam,

      • Ivan M

        Bro, Obama is the first Jewish President. He is a liberal Jew in all but name as he had himself defined it.

  • He does have a point. When we look at anywhere in the world where there are a significant amount of Muslims we see war, violence and chaos as cultures clash. I think there could be certain concessions for a short term temporary visa (which they would have to apply and pay for ahead of their visit) such as for visiting delegates and dignitaries attending conferences or meetings.

  • Inspector General

    It’s clear the air time…

    The Inspector has detected oblique criticism that he is being unnecessarily pissy towards Linus, or as he styles himself of late, Tutanekai. So lets appreciate what we have in the that character…

    An aggrieved homosexual atheist with a penchant for victimhood who comes onto this august Christian site to cause disruption, and we are supposed to give him an easy ride?

    He’s here to get a bloody nose and feel sorry for himself, and it would be churlish of us not to give him the same.

    • chiefofsinners

      When he’s cruel I don’t mind giving him a bit of a hiding, but mostly I haven’t the heart. It’s all too easy and obvious.

      • Inspector General

        Chief, as Christians, we believe no one is lost until they’ve taken their dying breath. Let us hope that Linus remembers the young lad that he once was, and regrets his subsequent descent into the emptiness of flesh attraction that has so ruined many a life.

        • chiefofsinners

          Amen. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by His grace.

  • Inspector General

    Off topic, but you should all know that the Inspector has been rather mystified of late as to the apparent vanishing over recent time of some of Pink News most forthright, we’ll call them, comments contributors…

    Well, mystified no more, as this news headline today explains…

    “Child abuse image investigation leads to 682 arrests”

    One hopes this post is not lost on Church of England personnel who are aiming to be ‘more inclusive’ towards the various alternative (and damnably unpleasant) lifestyles adopted by weak members of the flock…

    • dannybhoy

      And SLAAAAP!! goes the metal mitten….

    • Phil R

      Interesting.

      There is no link of course…

      • Inspector General

        You’ll have to ask Scotland Yard, Phil…

    • David

      Good sleuthing Inspector.

  • Hzle

    “Isn’t it rather more important, not to say imperative, to support the freedoms of speech and expression?”

    You’re behind the times, matey. That’s so last century.

    No it’s out with freedom of speech, I’m afraid, because the bullies and the loudmouths said so

  • David

    An excellent article Archbishop, and thank you.
    D. Trump has clearly gone too far in asking for a complete shutdown of the borders to Muslims. However one can easily construct arguments that require measures to control their movements, in order to protect the peace. For no one can deny the evidence that everywhere Muslims gather in large numbers, conflicts and clashes occur with whatever the local culture, faith and philosophy happens to be. Indeed even violence and war are a distinct possibility.
    Immigrants of different cultures and faiths have joined us from elsewhere without serious problems being caused, but not so in the case of “the religion of peace”. Most may well be peaceful, but they’re irrelevant, because there’s always seems to be a significant minority who then set the agenda for strife and conflict.
    Unfortunately for Trump, we live in an age where those who point towards a problem, and fearlessly uphold the truth, are attacked for “hate speech”. However it is society that is now guilty of abhorring truth, and hating – the plain truth ! This is the Age of Confusion.

  • William Lewis

    Looks like tutti frutti has followed the way of Linus. Yet another christophobe is unable to live with his comments in the light of the Venerable Blog.

    • CliveM

      Sorry don’t understand ?

      • William Lewis

        Tutenekai has deleted all of his comments.

        • CliveM

          Let’s hold a competition for the first person to spot the new Linus!

          • The Explorer

            Care to draw up the rules?

          • CliveM

            The problem as I see it is how do you come to a concencus as to who is the winner? Tutti Frutti never admitted to being Linus, it was simply accepted as being so.

            However with the kudos of being first and right, it might be harder to get this agreement?

          • The Explorer

            Linus himself would never co-operate with the hated enemy: that’s just part of his being Linus. However, when Carl Jacobs, Avi and Happy Jack (or any one of them on his own) thinks it’s Linus, that’s pretty conclusive.

            Chief of Sinners has good Linus-detection sensors as well.

          • CliveM

            So we have a star panel made up of Carl, Avi and Happy Jack and once they agree whoever they decide upon is the new Linus?

            They would of course be disqualified from taking part themselves.

          • The Explorer

            Sorted!

          • CliveM

            Ok, let’s the game commence!

          • Sam

            Dude

            Isn’t it “the game’s afoot?”

          • CliveM

            Ok, I’m willing to compromise.

          • Sam

            Twas just a question !

          • CliveM

            To be honest I thinks both are good.

          • Sam
          • The Explorer

            That’s Sherlock Holmes. Clive is quoting from ‘The Hunger Games’.

          • Sam

            Aww dude, but surely we’ll need the greatest detectives to foil the ‘Moriarty/Flambeau/ Master/ citizen Chauvelin ‘ of the cranmer blog?

            That would mean ?:

            Hercule poirot
            Sherlock Holmes
            Inspector Morse
            Father Brown
            Rabbi Small
            Miss Marple

        • Ivan M

          The bloody bugger!

        • Pubcrawler

          Oh. What a spoilsport!

          • chiefofsinners

            Must have embarrassed himself again. Anyone know what the fatal blow was this time?

          • Pubcrawler

            Dunno. There didn’t seem to be the same level of meltdown as with the original Linus.

          • chiefofsinners

            I expect his mum found out and he’s grounded.

          • CliveM

            His last comment went along the lines of “I’m bored with this” in relation to something the IG said and then it all went blank!

          • Pubcrawler

            Ah well, I’m sure the entertainment will resume after a suitable interval. Meanwhile: ices! Get your ices! Popcorn! Ices!

          • Pubcrawler

            That or his carer/minder. Hey ho

        • carl jacobs

          Oh, the tragedy of it all.

          But wait! Who did this very same deed in the past? Could it be…?

  • chiefofsinners

    If you have an Israel stamp in your passport you will not be allowed into multiple Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Donald Trump’s proposal is mild by comparison. Have we banned politicians from Saudi? No, we sell them weapons. They’re laughing in Riyadh.

  • The Explorer

    The petition to ban Trump now has more than 500 000 signatures, and although I missed the very beginning of ‘Question Time’ all the panel members I saw were united in condemning him.

    The comment I found interesting was that he should visit and be shown harmless, integrated Muslims.

    As I understand it, Trump isn’t denying that there are harmless, integrated Muslims. He is saying that some are not, and the mechanisms are not in place for detecting which are which. While they are not, it is folly to proceed as if all are harmless.

    • Orwell Ian

      There is now a counter petition that reads as follows.

      There are proposals to ban Donald Trump from the United Kingdom. At least, there’s a petition on the topic. This is totally illogical. For starters we shouldn’t be banning people for their opinions on domestic actions in a US political race that doesn’t concern us. But more importantly if he does actually win the nomination, and then goes on to win the presidency we then have to work with a man who we banned from our country in the first place – which totally offsets and upsets relations between two closely bonded countries. Leave the decision making on appropriate responses to the Americans. Lets mind our own business.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114907

      Signatures currently only 29000 but it might overtake its rival if enough people are motivated to sign and spread the word.

      • IanCad

        Good work Ian!!

        I am number 29,173.

        That there are so many wretches in this land delighting in the silencing of those with opposing views, is an indictment of our mind-numbing educational system.

        We may soon find ourselves in the position of needing the US’s Second Amendment to free us from the tyranny of the statists.

        • chiefofsinners

          Now past 33,000.

      • len

        Just signed…..’.Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.’

        George Orwell

      • David

        Me too – just signed, and well done Ian.

      • The Explorer

        Signed

      • William Lewis

        signed

      • dannybhoy

        I just signed Ian, and as others have said, ‘well done’ for bringing it to our attention.
        Free speech is free speech. He isn’t advocating killing anyone or imposing anything. Simply saying that the US government needs to call a halt until they have thought through what is going on.
        After all, one of the primary jobs of a government is to protect its citizens, not impose its will without the people’s assent.
        That is arrogance.

      • I Signed, now at 34,282

        • Uncle Brian

          Me too. Score now 34,730

          • The Explorer

            Remember ages ago you doubted that Linus was really half French? Seems you may have been right. Having deleted himself as Linus he then became ‘In Perfect Ignorance’ (who claimed to be heterosexual married for four years). Having deleted that identity he then became Tutanekai who claimed to be living in Britain. He has just deleted that identity, too, on this very thread.

          • Uncle Brian

            Yes, I remember that. At the time, however, he hadn’t yet admitted to being only “half French”. He was still describing himself as “French”, without any half-measures. I think I called his bluff.

            I’ve been away from Cranmer’s for a bit, busy with other things. It’s just as well, all things considered, that I didn’t come up against any of those other camouflaged Linuses that you’ve listed here. It wouldn’t have done my heart condition any good!

            How’s your own health these days, Explorer? Fully recovered now, I hope, from your spell in hospital?

          • The Explorer

            Thanks for the enquiry. Sorry to hear that you, too, have a heart condition. My situation remains parlous, but my medication has been maximised (and my system seems to be coping) in an attempt to rebuild heart muscle.

    • sarky

      Just to add balance, there is another petition calling for an end to all immigration and to close uk borders until isis is defeated, which currently has 450,000 signatories.
      (Won’t see that on the bbc though)

  • Anna

    Even if an ‘official’ ban on entry to all Muslims is a bit extreme and impractical, surely there is sufficient reason to close down Mosques, and ban all preaching (and preachers) of the Quran. Some Muslims (and all liberals) will object, but others who do not relish the idea of losing their offspring to the Jihad may even welcome such steps.

    Since Saudi Arabia – where Bibles are illegal, gatherings of non-Muslims banned, and refugees refused entry – has been chosen to head key UN human rights panel, it would not be wrong to follow its example.

    • Dreadnaught

      The big mistake made by most in the West is to regard Islam as just another religion. ‘Religion’ is the cloak of convenience in which an entire and immutable social system that brokes no compromise with any European legal, political or existing social standards is permitted. It does however exhort its followers to bide their time until they reach critical mass.

      • Anna

        It is a dangerous ideology, disruptive to social harmony and order, which is why Muslim governments tend to be so authoritarian. Any government, however beneficent, will have its share of critics and malcontents. In the Muslim context, leaders of such factions (often derived from other Muslim sects or ethnic groups) use Quranic texts to justify violent overthrow of existing orders; and their calls for democracy are mostly a ploy to gain Western support. Once they succeed, they will be just as ruthless, and others will rise to oppose them and repeat that vicious cycle.

        It is very unwise for western governments to meddle in these internal conflicts. Most Muslims tend to be realistic and generally satisfied with the stability enforced by an iron hand. I remember the shock expressed by a BBC correspondent at the public outpouring of grief at the demise of Bashar Assad’s father, who was after all a dictator!

        • Dreadnaught

          I totally agree. This is not about race or even religion it’s just about plain common sense which at the present time is in short supply.

      • David

        Indeed !

  • Anna

    An interesting article on Japan’s approach to the Islamic threat:
    http://www.infowars.com/islamic-terrorism-why-there-is-none-in-japan/

  • David

    Breaking news fellow Cranmer appreciators, and it’s very good news, protecting and upholding free speech and the right to speak truth, even if it offends the childishly thin skinned.
    Christian Concern – that great, feisty little team- have managed to overturn a Court Decision finding against a street preacher, who in response to an allegedly aggressive, self-identifying homosexual Christian, argued emotional pain when answered with a quote from Leviticus. The judge bizarrely commented that this one verse, should not have been used, whilst neighbouring ones were acceptable for the sensitive public. In effect he was advising on Judaeo-Christian “truth” and belief, on the hoof – a sort of legalistic sanctioning of doctrine ! What right has such a pompous wig-wearer to redact revealed Holy Scripture ?
    They bravely appealed and won ! It is a landmark case that upholds our English values of the right to free speech and debate, which is the very cornerstone of a civilised, reasoned and godly society. There will be rejoicing here tonight – involving both prayers and the products of a certain micro-brewery ! Sometimes we can bring down incoming missiles ! Let the glory be to God !

    • chiefofsinners

      Great news. I was thinking of this case today. Apparently the alleged victim said in court that he couldn’t even remember what the preacher had said to him.

      • David

        Faithful prayers are being answered.
        Some rather tasty English beer is being enjoyed, with thanks to God first.

        • Pubcrawler

          I still have a little beer in my glass before being chucked out, so I will do so retrospectively.

    • Orwell Ian

      The bit of the Appeal case that amused me was the prosecution witness who couldn’t remember anything the accused preacher said but it was homophobic.

      • David

        Well our ridiculous “hate” laws make it so easy for an unsettled “victim” to blurt out a childish accusation, “he said nasty things to me Mummy”, and nanny state, in the form of the PC Police jump to threaten and intimidate a perfectly upstanding, sincere, law abiding street preacher, no matter how gentle, reasonable and reasoned his answer happens to be.
        If in doubt lock ’em up seems to be a constant theme of many of the cases that CCFN defends. But bit by painful bit we seem to be having some success rolling back this anti-thought, anti-free speech bullying, big state, socialist juggernaut. Truth and freedom will out, as will the Word of God !

        • Orwell Ian

          This Appeal case sets a precedent. Mere assertion that a statement was homophobic is insufficient evidence. It is a small step towards discouraging malicious complaints and politically motivated prosecutions.

          • David

            Yes. The problem with many of these laws is that instead of an offence needing to be established as a matter of fact and degree, against reasonably defined benchmarks, as in English Common Law, it is deliberately set up to be subjective. So if a delicate flower of a person “feels” offended – you’re nicked. This is despite the fact that if you decide to engage in public conversation, questioning a speaker, on obviously emotional, difficult and controversial topic, then you run the severe risk of disagreeing with the answer you invite.
            All this represents the infantilisation of law. If reflects this liberal (contemporary meaning) obsession with how we feel, which is about self-worship and radical personal autonomy. It is of course the rejection of any firm standard, applied equally to all. It is the legal system of nightmares. One cannot build a successful, harmonious society on such shifting sands of subjectivity. It amazes me that our legislators could fall for such a dysfunctional system. I conclude that our MPs have little understanding of what constitutes good law.
            We need to return to the clearer Common Law system and away from these vague ideas typical of the continental Napoleonic Code, which provides such an uncertain and inferior system always likely to result in arbitrary decisions, which are the very stuff of tyranny. Great harm has been done to our liberties by membership of the EU. It must be reversed, otherwise even worse oppressions will result.

    • Pubcrawler

      Non nobis, domine.

      Which microbrewery, if I may be so bold?

      • David

        Well “microbrewery” was probably inaccurate, as they’ve grown – such are the ways of trade. My favourite ale, in cans, for at home, is Old Speckled Hen. I probably have two a week.

        • Pubcrawler

          Mmmkay, each to his own… 🙂

          • dannybhoy

            Eggsactly!

    • chiefofsinners

      Sounds like another candidate for Christian of the year.
      By the way, less of the ‘pompous wig wearer’ stuff if you don’t mind.

      • David

        Ahh of course “your” wig. Apologies.

  • Dreadnaught

    Someone in an earlier comment mentioned the relevance of China in the conflict of ISIS vs the rest of the world. It has its own, if remote conflict with Islam in the form of the Uigurs as this report sets out, and highlights that the inherent ‘Otherness’ of Muslims that is not unique by its presence only in the West.

    https://news.vice.com/article/a-muslim-minority-keeps-clashing-with-the-china-dream-in-the-countrys-increasingly-wild-west

  • preacher

    If Donald Trump was serious, he would show himself up as being dafter than he appears. What about all the Muslims who are already IN the U.S.A ? Or in all the countries of the Western World ? The slaughter in San Bernardino was purportedly committed by U.S citizens ! The Paris murders were partly carried out by apparent French residents. What about the psychopaths who claim God told them to kill ? & so it goes on.

    Trump is trying to ride the wave of public fear to further his own ends, like many others have done before. If the voters let him succeed, they deserve all they get.

  • This article made me smile. Apparently the media couldn’t find anyone who wouldn’t vote for Trump after he made his remarks about Muslims.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/12/09/trump-beat-reporters-we-cant-find-supporters-who-wont-vote-for-him-after-plan-to-ban-muslim-immigration/