Canon Andrew White8a
Christian Persecution

Canon Andrew White ordered home with $57m bounty on his head

 

“It’s the end for Iraqi Christians,” writes Josh Glancy in The Sunday Times, as he recounts the appalling horrors, heartbreaks and sheer despair of Iraq’s Christians, many thousands of whom are homeless, destitute and traumatised, and many hundreds of whom have had their hands held and tears wiped away by Canon Andrew White, the acclaimed ‘Vicar of Baghdad’, who, sadly, ministers in Baghdad no longer.

He has been ordered home by the Archbishop of Canterbury. When there’s a $57m (£36m) bounty on your head (quite literally), it becomes a little too dangerous to expound the scriptures every Sunday if the demonic hordes know exactly which pulpit you’ll be preaching from, at what time, and approximately for how long. With assets of £5.2bn, a few million quid wouldn’t be much missed from church coffers. But the Government intends to shed light on the grey areas and close all insurance loopholes relating to the payment of ransoms, in order to cut a primary source of terrorist funding. So the Vicar of Baghdad is back in England, at least for the moment, for Health & Safety reasons.

He has no fear of ISIS personally, and has said so many times. He knows that at an appointed time he will go to be with the Lord in eternity, and that the jihadis can destroy nothing but his body, which is already ravaged and weary with Multiple Sclerosis. His witness throughout his own suffering has been manifest; his courage consistent; his sacrifice of love profound. His love of Jesus radiates like laser of light in a world of darkness and shadows. “I’ve been shot at and bombed and they’ve tried to blow me up,” he says. “People say, ‘Aren’t you afraid where you are?’ Never, not one day; I love it. I feel really sad that I’m not there now.”

To leave the land to which God has called you to do His work must be bruising. To give up the mission He had you build is bewildering. To abandon the people you love – those with whom you eat, sleep, laugh and weep – must be a cause of deep pain, loss and distress. But the order came from his old friend, now boss, Justin Welby, and Canon White obeyed. “Did he agree with the decision?” Glancy asks:

He hesitates. “It was the right decision. Did I like it? No.” White clearly needed some persuading. In the end it was not the danger to himself that convinced him to go, but the danger he was posing to the people around him.

The Vicar of Baghdad is renowned all over the world, you see. Canon Andrew White traverses national borders and flies across continents to speak about the end of Christianity in the Middle East and his work of reconciliation and healing. His message is of the immanent apocalypse; his prophecy is eschatological. His fame makes him a magnet for ISIS: his head is worth millions more than an unknown taxi driver or charity worker. Imagine the drip, drip, splash of soul-destructive headlines: ‘Welby woos women bishops while Canon White wallows in grief’; ‘Anglicans dwell on doctrinal divisions while Andrew White pleads for his life’; ‘Church of England debates gay marriage while Canon White is tortured’; ‘Vicar of Baghdad beheaded by Jihadi John: he died singing Amazing Grace’.

Sure, the news cycle would soon move on to another photo of Ed Miliband eating a humous bagette or donating 43p to a prostitute. The national mourning wouldn’t last long, just as it hasn’t for David Haines or Alan Henning. But no prayer floating up to heaven on any wing would easily repair the reputational damage. The wound would bleed for a year. Respect for the Archbishop of Canterbury would dissipate; reverence for the Church of England would fade away. You could kiss goodbye to hopes of spiritual renewal and visionary monkish communities based at Lambeth Palace: what sort of ‘Religious Life’ chants Taizé choruses while a living saint is slaughtered?

“Bring me the head of the Vicar of Baghdad,” demands Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the self-styled Caliph of the Islamic State. And there it is, served up on a silver platter via TwitPic: a hero of the Faith martyred for want of 0.7% of the CofE’s total securities, bonds and shares. It doesn’t bear thinking about.

But we must go on thinking, praying and doing all we can to help those of our brothers and sisters who remain. The statistics have been reeled off so frequently there is almost a quantitative blindness to the scale of the passion. “In 1991 there were 1.5m Christians in Iraq. Today there may be as few as 300,000. In Syria and Egypt, in places where there have been churches for almost two millennia, Christians are being persecuted and killed and their places of worship destroyed,” Glancy reminds us.

Has the West done enough to prevent the destruction of an ancient civilisation, the cradle of its own faith? No. “They haven’t really, have they? They haven’t taken seriously the destruction of the community. I’ve always said, ‘These are our people. We are Christians. And so are they.’”

White compares the current crisis to the First Arab-Israeli War in 1948, which all but ended Jewish life across much of the Middle East. Hundreds of thousands of Jews left their ancient communities, where they were no longer welcome because of the hatred directed towards the Jewish state.

And how is the Vicar of Baghdad finding life in England?

“People here are not waking up and listening to the reality of what is going on. It is a life-and-death situation, and it is the life and death of our people. Here we are sitting in green country England where many people go to church on Sunday. But it’s a different world. Their biggest question is: ‘Should I have fish or chicken for lunch?’ ”

Quite. Like Justin Welby, Andrew White has been kidnapped and held at gunpoint. They said their prayers, phoned their loved ones and prepared their souls for death. They both must have thought many times “What if..?”. Is their mission foolhardy? Are their efforts wise and discerning or harebrained? Is their vocation of God?

Having been imprisoned in a room “with lots of cut-off fingers and toes”, Canon Andrew White must keep his head and maintain his voice. Not because he believes his life to be worth more than any of those who remain in Iraq. But because he reminds us prophetically that we are called to be crucified every day with Christ and to share in the suffering of others. They are our severed fingers and toes that are strewn across the floor. It is our agony and grief you can hear in the desert sands. And it is our weeping, wailing and mourning that echoes throughout the entire Middle East.

  • Mike Stallard

    You cannot serve both God and Mammon.
    Once finance is in the frame, no argument: finality strikes.

  • len

    As our society staggers from one crisis to another it must surely becoming apparent that their is something dreadfully wrong inherent in humanity?.
    That Christians (and others) can be pursued and butchered for no other reason than they belong to a different faith (or no faith at all) is surely a personification of evil.
    Corruption seems to be spread right across society worldwide from the politicians fiddling their expenses, through to the Media even in the area of sports.Fines for corrupt banking exceeds the total defence budget in the UK!. And Bankers STILL award themselves obscene bonus`s .
    The Trussell Trust reported in 2012 that it feeds tens of
    thousands of people each year, and that altogether in the UK there are
    13 million people “below the poverty line”: about 1 in 5 of the overall
    population.
    And the rich get richer.
    As people turn away from God they turn to’ self’ they become’ self orientated’ and with the ‘no absolutes’ as regards to morality which seems prevalent in our secular philosophy we have an ‘everybody for themselves’ society.Of course their are exceptions to this but I am talking in generalities.

    So Christians are being butchered and no one want to get involved so they lower their eyes and walk by on the other side of the street.

  • David

    The blunderings of the leaders of some Western countries has precipitated, if not caused, this cycle of destructive violence. But I don’t blame the man or woman in the street who voted people, taking my country alone, like Blair and Cameron into power. It is these false leaders who blundered, and kept on blundering, serving not the people of these islands, and certainly not the peoples of the ME, but their own false egos and distorted, flawed and strangely naive, world views, uninformed by the ever present realities and lessons of history.
    We are exceptionally badly served by our political establishment and very recently many are beginning to grasp that truth, too late for these beleaguered ME countries, but I believe not too late to save many of the western ones. The reality of the awfulness of the leadership provided by the legacy, run-on political parties is now laid bare before our UK public.
    I weep and mourn for the sufferings of countless of my fellow Christians, and the others, sacrificed to the vanities of a few western leaders who precipitated that particular violence always waiting to be unleashed….

  • Dominic Stockford

    With that price on his head it matters little where he is. There are plenty of people aspiring to jihadi status in this country already who will see a challenge and seek “immortality” by acting against him according to their perverted ideology.

  • carl jacobs

    One hundred years ago, the West stood athwart the world like the Collosus. Western power was pre-eminent. Western governance was ubiquitous. One could be seduced by the vision of Europe as the bringer of the eschatological Kingdom foretold in Post Millenialism. Man was progessing, or so it was thought. And the measure of his progress was the penetration of Western ideas and understandings. Two world wars put paid to that vision. Europe was exhausted, bankrupted, broken. It retreated behind an American shield into its welfare state. The Americans carried the burden during the Cold War, but we have never been an Imperial power. It could never last. The Western Empires were broken up in the name of self-determination and Western control ended. What we are seeing is the re-emergence of non-Western thought to a place of power and local pre-eminence as Western power recedes.

    The Inspector once said on this weblog that 100 years ago, you could could just send a regiment to deal with things like ISIS. That’s not true anymore. What Iraq demonstrates more than anything is Western impotence in the face of this change. Our conceit about the progress of man is revealed as so much self-aggrandizing vapor. Here are these people who hate what we love, and are willing to kill it. They see the world in alien terms, and we can do absolutely nothing about it. Modern technology places this image of our own impotence directly before our eyes. The world is no longer ours to shape in our own image. The hubris revealed in the United Nations has become a sad parody of its own vision.

    The calls to “do more” about Iraq remain unheeded because “doing more” would require the re-establisment of Empire, and there is neither ability nor appetite for that solution. As Western power continues its long recession, our cherished image of the inevitable triumph of the Western world view collapses in its wake. We look at Iraq and wonder what will come next – as the center of gravity in the world moves relentlessly away from the West and towards the non-Western nations of India and China. It is not just Christians who are being slaughtered in Iraq. What is being killed before our eyes is the place of privilege long occupied by the moral understandings that emerged from Christianity. We fear the world is regressing and we haven’t the power or the will to stop it.

    And we are right to fear.

    • IanCad

      We may not have the appetite but there is no question that we have the ability to take over the entire Muslim world if we were so minded.
      This fear nonsense has got to stop.

      • carl jacobs

        Ian

        The French couldn’t control so much as Algeria fifty years ago, and you think you could control the entire Muslim world today? Not without terror and bloodshed, you couldn’t. They aren’t going to just roll over in the face of Western power any more. They know how to fight you and win.

        • IanCad

          Could not disagree with you more Carl.
          The French had the ire of the Western World against them. They could see the writing on the wall.
          The rot set in at Suez when Eisenhower warned us off.
          A great blot on the record of an otherwise greatly under-rated president.
          We take the gloves off – they’ll roll over alright. Dead.

          • dannybhoy

            I think you’re missing out the availability of weapons and that warfare is now urban guerilla warfare.
            Only by totally disarming everyone (is that possible?) could you minimise the threat, but then there’s suicide bombers, ieds etc.
            Our ancestors saved Christian Europe at the battle of Tours 732AD.
            Their grateful descendants endangered Christian Europe through the capitulation to Multiculturalism..

          • IanCad

            Danny; to quote you:

            “–warfare is now urban guerilla warfare”
            You’ll have to tell me where.

          • dannybhoy

            Why, you wanna go there?

          • Uncle Brian

            Ian — Eisenhower ultimately regretted the policy he pursued in the Suez crisis. A decade later, in a meeting with Richard Nixon, he said his action had prevented Britain and France from playing a constructive role in the Middle East and that
            U.S. actions to reverse the crisis for Nasser’s benefit didn’t help as far as the Middle East was concerned. Nasser became even more anti-West and anti-U.S. “The worst fallout from Suez,” Eisenhower is reported as saying, “was that it weakened the will of our best allies, Britain and France,” who otherwise might have gone on to play a major role in the Middle East or in other areas outside Europe. Nixon would later describe American policy during the Suez crisis as “the greatest foreign policy blunder the United States has made since the end of World War II.”

            Source: Dennis Ross and David Makovsky, Myths, Illusions, and Peace, pp. 44-45.

            http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Illusions-Peace-Finding-Direction/dp/0143117696/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417028692&sr=1-1

          • IanCad

            Thanks for the info UB. I did not know that.
            How refreshing for a politician to admit his mistake.
            Tricky as he may have been, Nixon was a shrewd observer.
            Ian

          • Royinsouthwest

            If it had been the Panama Canal and not the Suez Canal that was at risk Eisenhower’s attitude would have been completely different.

          • Merchantman

            Not quite on the same scale, but the ONE in the WH calls the Falklands, Las Malvinas.

          • Uncle Brian

            Is Barry trying to be nice to Cristina Kirchner? I wonder why he would want to do that. Or why anyone at all would want to do
            that.

        • Phil R

          Nobody (especially men) are willing to sacrifice for what the west now stands for. E.G. the TA is not bursting at the seams with all the gay recruits who have benefited from the new western values.

          Like the fall of Rome perhaps. Did Rome fall or was it not worth fighting for anymore?

          The west used to fight because it was worth its while (materially) for the individual, primarily, but also the values of those that fought were celebrated, not condemned.

          If you want to defeat this you need to think back to what worked and reapply this in the new context

          • dannybhoy

            There’s truth in that too.

          • IanCad

            Phil,
            I would have to say that when pelf and pelt are threatened the mildest and meekest will become as a tiger.

      • dannybhoy

        I don’t think so, not now. But you’re right about the fear factor. What are we afraid of? These guys are totally bestial and devoid of any compassion. They have nothing to offer the world except bloody butchery and nihilism. We will have to fight them.

        • IanCad

          Danny, they produce no weapons of any consequence.
          OK! Pakistan has nukes. Pakistan is on the radar, Maybe India will take care of that.
          I find it difficult to believe that if butchery and savagery were visited on us that we would not reply in kind.

          • dannybhoy

            Ian,
            My reference to Europe below was to point out that the problems will spread from the current guerilla/terrorist theatres of war like
            Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan Pakistan borders even Yemen and Gaza, down into Africa. Sleeper cells and organised groups in Europe will be activated, terror tactics like suicide bombings, random/targetted beheadings will all help to sow fear and panic..
            Knowing who is civilian and who is combatant will further cloud the situation.

    • bluedog

      Carl says, ‘…but we have never been an Imperial power’

      Louisiana Purchase, 1804: doesn’t count,
      Alaska Purchase, 1867: ditto
      Treaty of Paris, 1898: ditto

      Note that through the Treaty of Paris, following US victory over Spain, the US acquired temporary control of Cuba and was granted colonial powers over Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philipines in perpetuity.

      It is a base slander to suggest that the US was in anyway motivated to emulate the European empires of the late 19th century period.

      • CliveM

        It is arguable that the USA is a continent wide Empire in itself. They weren’t invited in by the locals!

        • bluedog

          Correct, Clive. One cannot however imagine any part of the US describing itself as the ‘Empire State’.

          • CliveM

            If you added the word Building to the end they might!

          • Merchantman

            One thinks too of the ‘ONE’ in the White House from Hawaii.
            ‘What we are seeing is the re-emergence of non- Western thought to a place of power……’
            Got it.

  • Albert

    What superb man! It should be remembered that even our Lord sometimes hid himself from his enemies.

    • Old Nick

      And in S. Matthew’s Gospel counselled us that if they were persecuting you in one city you should flee to another – as S. Cyprian of Carthage did in both the Decian and Valerianic Persecutions, before he was martyred in the latter.

      • Albert

        Good point!

      • Old Nick

        There is an article in the Journal of Theological Studies for 1989 called “Flight in Persecution as Imitation of Christ: Lactantius IV, 18, 1-2” which lays out a lot of evidence from the Early Church.

  • IanCad

    A week or so ago Gillan highlighted the plight of the Church Persecuted. We pray for them.

    However, and no matter how much we flinch, the persecuted must become the militant. If not Christianity will be as feeble as Judaism in those barbarous lands.

    Is it wrong as a Christian to fight for the defenceless? The young? The feeble?

    Will any merit accrue from standing aside and allowing injustice to conquer?

    I think not.

    In Britain we live in a shallow land. A degree of residual Christianity is still embedded in our nature. A sense of right and wrong if you will.

    We can’t do it on our own, although our few commandos seem to be punching above their weight. A few more would work wonders.

    Problem is we are ruled by smooth faced dandies. We need hairy chested politicians.

    Alas, there are none that i know of.

    • dannybhoy

      Theresa May?

  • Inspector General

    Someone seems to have come down with a bad case of unrealistic expectations.

    Let’s get one thing straight. We are powerless to save anyone in a country that is undergoing a muslim uprising. Sanctions don’t work. Not when the terror is grass roots based. We can destroy their military capability, but we can’t stop one man killing another if he comes across him because he isn’t a muslim too. We can’t even airlift the persecuted out, except in token numbers. We need to accept all this. Unnecessary angst does no one any good.

    What we can do something about is to stop these ransoms being paid. One understands they’re all at it, other than the British government, and one suspects even that is merely the official line, if you will. How can those who pay out rest in ease when they know their money is being used to purchase arms and ammunition to be used on the less fortunate whose fate cannot be purchased.

    We can also install a few strong arm leaders friendly to the West. That will stop the rabble alright, it did before. One wonders what the concerned Christians of the UK think of that, or are they ludicrous ‘democracy will cure everything’ dreamers for whom such pragmatism would be quite beyond the pale.

    • Phil R

      The rabble are learning Inspector.

      And there are more of them

    • dannybhoy

      Inspector, it was the American led suppport for the Arab Spring that led to the throwing off of the “old style” military dictators (ironically installed and supported by the West!) in favour of US style “democracy lite” which has led to this chaos.
      In the US many questions have been asked of Barack Obama’s attitude to and respect for Islam (he has even got MB supporters in his administration.)
      But democracy and Islam do not go too well together, and historically Islamic nations have always needed strong autocratic leaders.

    • IanCad

      In general I agree IG. What is up in the air though is a major outrage — thousands killed — God Forbid!
      We would be very angry indeed. When the realization hits that the perps are weak and backed by a government decisive action would follow.
      The history books would be dusted off and Lo!!! We ruled these lands in sturdier times; let’s do it again.
      The North Sea is not yielding as it used.

  • len

    It is wrong to see the problem presented to the World by militant Islam as purely political or a matter of ‘religion’.
    There is a spiritual battle going on of which much of the world is not even aware.
    It is is not possible for a vacuum to exist in the physical world and a vacuum certainly cannot exist in the spiritual world and is not possible to fight a spiritual battle with physical weapons.
    So as the restraining force against evil is lifted ( the Holy Spirit who will only stay by invitation ) unholy spirits are energising those who are open and available to them.This is the reason we are seeing acts of total barbarism especially against Christians. God`s people are especially marked out but others are certain to follow because all humanity is hated by the spiritual forces that have opposed God throughout history.
    Satan uses people to do his bidding and then when they are of no further use to him he destroys them.Look at this occurring throught history(even recent history such as the leaders of the Nazi party)
    So with many rejecting God there has been a pathway for evil to act unrestricted and we are beginning to reap what our leaders and those pushing for liberalization of God`s moral law (which has served western civilization for centuries.)
    Man in the search for ‘ freedom from God’ , freedom from the restrictions of God`s Moral Law has been led into bondage and under the authority of all the forces that Christ defeated on the Cross at Calvary.

    “Let us free ourselves from their rule,” they say; “let us throw off their control.”(Psalm 2:3)
    One might add “and act without restraint” which is what sems to be happening.

    Man it seems cannot learn from history only by direct experience?.

    • dannybhoy

      Len, do you think then that we should pray against what is happening (and I basically agree with you) or do you think it’s a case of ‘prayer and wear’
      physical warfare as well as spiritual?

      • len

        Sorry about the delay in replying.

        God`s only answer to the ills of this present corrupt (and failing)world system is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.In many cases this Gospel has been reduced to a meaningless (to our modern world)’ religion’.
        What the world need now(sounds like the start of a song) is revelation of the Love of God and the Nature of God .

        If we want the most accurate picture of God, we don’t need to look any
        further than Jesus Christ. In Jesus we meet God as God really is. “He
        who has seen me,” Jesus said, “has seen the Father” (John 14:9)

        So yes we must pray that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is revealed and yes again we must resist the works of satan which seem to be gaining ground as Christianity is driven back.

        • dannybhoy

          So just to be clear we must engage in spiritual warfare and as necessary temporal warfare?
          My overall understanding is that the call to be salt and light in the world means that the priorities should be proclaiming the Gospel, authenticating the Gospel by how we live, and working for a more righteous/moral compassionate and just society.
          This until God calls “Time!” and begins His endtime programme.
          (Which is where prophecy comes in..)

          • Sometimes Danny, when all other means fail, nations have to rid the world of forces that threaten the common good. That’s living the Gospel too.

          • dannybhoy

            Yeah, but I’m still not sure that justifies the Church killing and torturing people who disagree with it.

          • As Jack keeps saying, heresy was tantamount to treason in days gone bye. Nobody “justifies” killing people for the exercise of conscience. The world was a different place back then.

          • dannybhoy

            “The world was a different place back then.

            Now I think you’re really onto something there, my friend and brother Jack! 🙂

  • Uncle Brian

    I was astonished to learn that anybody at all, however dangerous, could have a
    price on his head running into the tens of millions of dollars. Is it known who,
    exactly, is offering to pay all that money as a reward to the criminals who
    commit this particular kidnapping or murder? And how does this figure of $57m compare with the price tag that has been put on other wanted men, whether they are
    wanted by the forces of law and order or, as in this case, by the forces of
    crime? Is this the highest bounty that has ever been offered, or have there
    been cases of even larger sums?

    • bluedog

      Good questions, Uncle Brian. We should also allow ourselves to speculate on which bank would the award cheque be drawn. Somewhere in Saudi or Qatar, perhaps. Frankly, at $57m, most claimants will find themselves being whacked before they collect.

      • Uncle Brian

        Do contract killers accept cheques? Not in the films I’ve seen!

        • bluedog

          Look, I don’t have any experience in this line of business so, yes, the idea of a cheque is probably naïve. How about a container load of used bank notes with an advance of $1m? The price seems far too high to me and likely to attract rogue elements in some of the more entrepreneurial secret services.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Strange, but in a recent DT article, Welby was saying that we should not give asylum to Iraqi Chrisitians because it would risk draining the Middle East of ancient communities..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11237755/Welby-warns-offering-asylum-to-Christians-could-drain-Middle-East-of-2000-year-old-communities.html

    So, if you’re a young muslim, lusting to spill some Christian blood, and you’ve gone out to fight, then we would love you to come back (provided you attend a “de-radicalisation” programme). if you’re a Christian, then don’t count on us for asylum. Seems to me Mr Welby, it would be better to drain the region of Christians by giving them asylum than by feeding to the ISIS dogs.

    To me, Canon Andrew White stands head and shoulders above the ABC in dedication to Christ and God’s will. The fate of ME Christians is a scar on the conscience of the West. Politicians have deliberately ignored their plight, probably out of contempt for Christianity, which is considered very yesterday in todays brave new world. God will not forget their wickedness.

    Meanwhile , the only thing the rest of us can do is dig into our pockets and donate to whateber charities are still actively trying to help the persecuted.

    • dannybhoy

      “because it would risk draining the Middle East of ancient communities..”

      Well they’re certainly doing that now. What a turkey!

      • CliveM

        Have you read the article? When his comments are read in full, I don’t see that they are that controversial.

        • dannybhoy

          No I haven’t Clive, and you’re right I shouldn’t prejudge. What I can tell you is that I have sent numerous emails to Lambeth Palace, my MP and the PM’s office asking that something be done to help our Christian brethren in the ME and nobody (apart from independent Christian charities seems to want to know. Imams addressing Synods just doesn’t cut it.

          • CliveM

            Well I will agree the lack of response you are getting is disappointing.

            I hope it’s because they are busy doing something.

          • dannybhoy

            Yes, they probably are. Arranging interfaith dialogues or whatever. But I know I’m not the only person who tries to contact church leadership and get a reasoned response.

            Just remember the last Archbishop Williams was stating that the incorporation of some aspects of Shari’a law into our own seemed inevitable..
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7233335.stm

            Having Imams addressing Synod shows how much the CofE has lost confidence in its own Gospel. People can argue it’s keeping a dialogue going, but why would you do that anyway with all the evidence of intolerance and butchery coming out of the Middle East?
            Still, one can always give Israel a good ecclesiastical kick uo the backside I suppose…

          • CliveM

            It is all to easy to fall into a tabloid response to what is reported in the news. From what I have seen the AoB has put a lot of personal effort into the situation of Christians in the ME. However let us be honest apart from highlighting the issue, organising events etc and yes interfaith dialogue (not actually with ISIS remember) what is the CofE able to do?

          • dannybhoy

            What I would like to see them do is spearhead an appeal or lean on our Christian friendly government to either make temporary provision here for Christian refugees (we take everyone else),
            or make protected camps provisioned by us near to allies such as Turkey or Jordan.
            At the very least encourage all Christians but especially those of the CofE to give to a fund to help them. It needs to be an Archbishop led and sanctioned approach..
            Do ye think perhaps the reason it’s not happening is because there might be clashes/opposition with our own Muslim communities if Christian refugees fron the ME came here??

          • CliveM

            Have you yet read the article? Because in it he does call on western Govts including our own to create safe havens. And from memory not for the first time.

          • dannybhoy

            So no I still haven’t read it, but my question remains.
            David Cameron says we’re a Christian nation.
            (Now I don’t believe that but apparently he does.)
            The Archbishop is head of the state church, the Queen is defender of the faith, right?
            So call me ‘Stoopid’,
            but between them why in this Christian nation can’t they come up with a strong statement of intent making it clear our national sympathy and support is with the Christians and minorities being harried, shot, carved up, decapitated, raped and sold into prostitution and their homes and cultures destroyed forever?
            How long should those traumatised men women and children wait whilst the Church avoids doing anything ‘provocative’?

          • CliveM

            Well personally I am more concerned that the Church does something effective. Provocative might gain headlines in the UK, but what would it achieve. And really would anyone in these communities hear?

            I don’t know all that the CofE is doing, I have seen several articles that show that Welby at least is making serious efforts. I would suspect that some of what it does needs to be low key.

            I am disgusted however with our Govts response. Or lack of it.

          • dannybhoy

            Agree with your first sentence, but “provocative” implies to deliberately goad or seek to offend.
            I suppose it depends on whether you see this as your country that your forefathers shed their blood for, that was shaped by Christianity, that is so desirable to many people they will risk their lives to get here.
            Or if you see yourself as just one of a number of ethnic and cultural communities living side by side on a piece of real estate in the North Sea, I can see why you would use the word…
            “provocative.” 😉

          • CliveM

            Dannybhoy

            Look at your post that I was responding to. I was quoting your use of the word ‘provocative’ 😉 !!

          • dannybhoy

            Oh yes……..
            Well that’s why I put it in quotes, because I don’t see it would be ‘provocative’
            But I think “they” would.. 🙂 🙂

          • CliveM

            Sometimes for reasons I don’t understand I can’t add a link to a reply post. So I have put it as a new post. It will be marked for your attention!

          • dannybhoy

            Thanks Clive, and thanks for pulling me up too. One of my failings is being too quick off the mark…. 🙂

          • CliveM

            Dannybhoy

            As I have said before you are a better man then me.

          • dannybhoy

            I do email folk on various issues because this is my right as a citizen and responsibility as a Christian. Of course prayer is essential as in spiritual warfare, but so is speaking up.
            I think I mentioned before that I attended a military style boarding school , and it was mainly there along with subsequent life experiences that I lost any inclination to tug the forelock to authority figures. 🙂
            Not to say there is no need for authority, but elitism, class, pomposity, privilege and condescension are swear words in my book.

          • CliveM

            🙂 respect needs to be earned, it isn’t a right.

          • CliveM

            “The Most Rev Justin Welby said while the UK has a “humanitarian duty of hospitality and welcome” in extreme cases, it should use its international influence to press for the creation of safe havens in the region as a priority.”

          • Merchantman

            I heard some Bishop has suggested a passage from the Koran at the next Coronation.
            Better than ‘Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring’ as the congregations settles down??!
            What utter balderdash and bilge will the C of E Bishops come up with next?
            Any suggestions for the reading?

          • dannybhoy

            Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)

            Yusuf Ali translation:
            “And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque

            (but Westminster Abbey is okay, and make sure you get the guys with the pointy hats and dresses),

            unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.”

          • dannybhoy

            Yusuf Ali: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them
            out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are
            worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless
            they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is
            the reward of those who suppress faith.

          • Uncle Brian

            Chapter 1 of Judges, sometimes described as the oldest book in the Bible, written quite soon after the events described. How Judah and Simeon vanquished one tribe after another, all the way from Gaza to Galilee via Jerusalem and Hebron.

  • Royinsouthwest

    Meanwhile our political leaders are deliberately turning a blind eye to what motivates terrorists.

    UKIP PEER REPORTED TO LORDS SPEAKER FOR CALLING ON MUSLIMS TO DEBATE CONTENTS OF KORAN

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/26/Ukip-Lord-Reported-to-Lords-Speaker-for-Calling-on-Muslims-to-Debate-Contents-of-Quran

  • Inspector General

    Good show chaps. We await with interest as to whether Lambeth palace agrees
    that when it comes to democracy the Arabs just aren’t up to it. It’s racial you see. These wretches would cut your throat as soon as look at you for generations. They’re not going to change overnight. Of course, strong arm dictatorship means a return to the secret police, but if that is what it takes for Christians (those who are left) to be protected by the state from their would be assassins, then so be it, and with gusto !

    Signing off for tonight…

    God save the Queen !

  • Old Blowers

    The problem with the west intervening in a modern world abroad is that they choose to act with our troops as some kind of cuddly policemen, playfully ruffling local childrens hair and handing out haribo but with no real power to influence or maintain order via the two faced puppets they prop up. The west simply hopes that the statement ‘democracy is the cure’ will somehow be a conceptual soundbite that resonates with the indigenous. But why should they believe or accept such an alien concept when there are other practical options that Allah demands? All that is needed is to cross the seas to old blighty and pass all those generous welfare benefits towards the cause of jihad. We end up becoming the means and the guaranteed ends towards our own demise whilst ignoring our brother and sisters suffering and demand they stay put to sacrifice they lives for the faith! The only presence that will be left in the ME of the faith therefore will be unmarked mass graves whilst the west feels good about itself. Did we not do this during WW2 with the Jews in nazi occupied lands Did it work? Should we have done everything to get them to safety or is this somehow persecution different? Do we need an ISIS Kristallnacht before weget serious about our suffering brethren
    You could’nt make this scenario up except in the minds of crazed insurgents while a nation sleepwalks it’s way to self oblivion in the name of unfettered blind equality without responsibility for our inaction.

    Old Blowers

    PS

    For all those spouting the salvation to be secured for the nation by the rise of UKIP, old ernst states that they are only a short term fix for dismantling the 3 party franchise that has blighted our nation. We need a more encompassing political party that truly sees one nation as crucial rather than as a means to dress up failed MP’s in purple attire rather than blue, red, orange or green. We need a new vision for the nation. SMERSHing eh?..What a SPECTRE that would be!!!

    • len

      Good to see you Ernst and tiddles too of course….

      • Old Blowers

        God bless old boy, Glad to see us oldies both still here!!! *giggles*

    • IanCad

      Good post Ernst.
      Glad to see you back.
      Ian

  • magnolia

    Having watched one of the later Max Keiser offerings on Russia Today, which touts a refreshing line on excoriating political interference in the markets, I was astonished to hear the man he was interviewing say he had talked to Robin Cook who said it had taken him and “Tony” years to understand that the people in the White House, President included, were not the real ones pulling the strings in the US.

    The problem is partly that politicians spend far too much time these days “climbing the greasy pole” and far too little time really delving into what’s what, or reading in depth, or pondering- at all.

    And maybe this lot are yet to work out what’s really going on, similarly, and many here may well have worked out more.

    Of one thing I am certain, the House of Saud are bloodthirsty and conscienceless stirrers who operate with lower standards than the rather low standards of Islam generally. (Of course there are exceptional moderate kind Muslims who latch onto the gentler texts and whom I respect and like, but they are not the majority.) They hope to divide the spoils of war (poor Syria) amongst 4 or 5 nations, and minus Christians. And our government seems to care not one jot for these poor folk. Not one jot.

    • magnolia

      I should have put a link in for those interested the comments on Cook and Blair came at 24.00 on

    • dannybhoy

      Well said magnolia.

  • CliveM