Cameron - Festival of Life2
Mission

Cameron: "As God's children, we are all one big family"

 

David Cameron did a lot of God yesterday. If you judge by the Daily Mail photo splash, it was mainly about Sikhs, gurdwaras and Vaisakhi. But he also addressed the Festival of Life – the largest gathering of Christians in the UK, organised by the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG) – where he spoke about aspiration, ambition and the Big Society (and got prayed for).

“Pardon my cynicism,” commented one attendee. “Has David Cameron come to praise and worship God or come to press the mugu buttons of the worshippers get more votes?”

Well, this is what he preached (tediously transcribed, apparently not reported anywhere in the MSM or even considerately released by CCHQ), so you may judge for yourselves:

I have to say, I don’t envy the organisers of tonight. It must be like the feeding of the 5,000, except – I can see you – you are 45,000! You must be relieved that it’s just spiritual food on the menu tonight.

..Together we are all part of one family. As Jesus said with his arms outstretched to his disciples, “Here are my mother and my brothers, for whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, my sister and my mother.” And that is what we are, as God’s children, we are all one big family.

Now when I was a child, I had a very specific image of what a church was. I thought to be a church, it had to be an old, grey building with a slate roof and a big spire, and it had to have pews and a pulpit, and a graveyard where the naughty boys would play hide and seek. But I was wrong, and you prove that. You’ve proved that church is people; church is a family. And it doesn’t matter what the roof is made of, because with your energy, your devotion, your love of Jesus Christ, you raise that roof every time.

Now your dedication to family – your family is blood, and your family is humanity – it goes way beyond this room. I think of how many ways you love your neighbour: with care for those who are sick and lonely; with mentoring for teenagers who think they have no hope; with fundraising for hospices, for looked-after children, for those suffering unimaginable trauma overseas. And like Jesus turning water into wine, you turn loneliness into companionship; you turn deprivation into comfort; you turn lost lives into lives with purpose.

For years I have tried to explain to people what the Big Society is. Some people were determined not to understand it. Well, I should have brought them here to the Festival of Life, because this is the Big Society in action, and it’s as vibrant, as alive and as powerful as ever. Now just think how great our country, Britain, could be if we built on that; if we had an even bigger Big Society, where even more people shared your family values – values of prudence, of hard work, of looking out for those who fall on hard times. With these values we can achieve the Britain we all want to live in – where the oppressed are cared for; where the lonely are befriended; where it’s not where you come from but the content of your character that really matters. And tonight, let us be proud that this is a Christian country, where we stand for the freedom to practise your faith, and where we stand up for Christians and all those who are persecuted anywhere in our world. They are family, too..

It’s certainly no Sermon on the Mound, but nor is it an entirely vacuous theology (or, indeed, ecclesiology). Assuming he means what he preaches (a doubt never present for one minute with Margaret Thatcher’s sermonising), David Cameron espouses an understanding of the universal Church which is rooted in God’s redeemed people, gathered together to worship, praise, pray and serve. The Church is not a material building because wood, bricks and glass can’t be greeted, vexed or persecuted, as St Luke records in the Book of Acts.

For David Cameron, the Church is those who are called out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation to do the will of God. The worship is not simply upwards to glorify, but outwards to serve. As the Church gathers, it ministers in love, one saint to the other, but also to sinners, demonstrating salvation to a lost and dying world. The Prime Minister’s theological priority is not obedience to commandments or the meeting of certain moral standards, but to do good and love one another, which is the basic principle of Christian ethics.

The law of love, of course, has rules, and they may seem harsh, inflexible and distinctly unloving to the (post)modern mind. For David Cameron, rule-governed love is restrictive: the love of God transcends the fetters of man. The concern is with the oppressed, the exploited, the lonely, sick and dying. Christians have a responsibility to act justly and righteously: the God of the prophets is a practical God who cares about the poor, afflicted and vulnerable.

But there is a slight niggle..

The Prime Minister says: “..where we stand up for Christians and all those who are persecuted anywhere in our world.”

When? Where? How?

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

  • bluedog

    Whether or not Cameron does mean what he says, it is also true to say that he is the only party political leader who is likely to make a speech anything like this, with the exception of Nigel Farage. Farage needs to move quickly beyond ‘Judeo-Christian’ in order to keep up with the Camerons. One can safely rule out the prospect of Clegg, Bennett, Miliband, Sturgeon or the Welsh woman saying anything remotely like Cameron’s declaration of faith. One suspects that the Christian vote, if such a thing exists, is elderly and increasingly forgetful. In which case this Christian vote may have forgotten its collective fury at the absurdity of SSM by May 7th.

    Take a bow, Lynton Crosby. Following the announcement that Conservatives are the party of working people, another box is ticked.

  • Dreadnaught

    All Religions are dangerous because they allow human beings who don’t have all the answers to think that they do. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you’d resign in protest.

    • bluedog

      ‘All Religions are dangerous because they allow human beings who don’t have all the answers to think that they do.’

      You may not have been paying attention in Sunday school, Dreadnaught. Christians admit they don’t have the answers but look to Christ, who does.

      • Dreadnaught

        I deliberately expressed ALL RELIGIONS. My culture is British Christian I have no desire to deny that. I took an oath to serve my Country through allegeiance to the Queen, her heirs and successors – I have not recanted that or ever will. The fact that she is the symbolic head of the CoE is incidental to my loyalty or being atheist.

        • Inspector General

          Excellent sentiments…

          • Dreadnaught

            Warming to you Iggy 🙂

          • Inspector General

            Seriously. Although you cannot find God, and one presumes you’ve looked in vain and are still looking, you possess the sterling qualities of allegiance to Her Majesty, and to this nation state, probably the best in the world.

            Salutations indeed!

          • Dreadnaught

            I know your heart is in the same place Old Fruit!

    • carl jacobs

      Dreadnaught

      If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is …

      You realize, of course, that by declaring the association of religion with “bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance” you implicitly assert that you have “the answers” to such questions.

      • Dreadnaught

        Not at all. Nobody can be sane and assume such proportions.

        • carl jacobs

          Dreadnaught

          To accuse someone of “bigotry” you must first know what bigotry is. And you must know it with authority. You are assuming the vantage of an objective reference point that by definition religious people can never occupy. Repeat the analysis for everything else on your list. It holds for every item.

          The problem you describe is not “human beings who don’t have all the answers [but] think that they do.” The problem is that atheists think religion provides the wrong answers to a very specific set of questions. Atheism provides a very different set of answers to those exact same questions. Atheists think those answers are right. Those answers provide the vantage point to which I referred, and enable the judgments that you made.

          No one thinks he has all the answers. But all people assert that they have a set of true answers to a set of essential questions. The question is the same question Pilate asked of Christ. “What is truth?” We cannot avoid that question, and the answer given will permeate everything we think and say and do.

          • Dreadnaught

            All religions believe that they hold true. You must level the same obligations to all of them that you hold to me. I simply do not beleive in gods.

    • dannybhoy

      Lol!

      • Dreadnaught

        Lame.

  • DanJ0

    My reading of that quote is that he’s trying to tick a box for the religious vote by seeking a religious audience and tailoring his political comments to that audience. That said, he’s basically building on Margaret Thatcher’s “there’s no such thing as society” interview by appealing to people to be decent and to gather together under their own steam to put that decency to good use for everybody. It’s not a bad message at all and it applies to people of all religions and none in the UK.

    • sarky

      Sorry Danj0 but it’s all words, although I do agree with the message.

      • The Explorer

        George Orwell, assessing platitudes, said that if people were all decent, the world would be decent. Marvellous. How do you get everybody to behave decently? That’s the difficult bit.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Reading DC’s speech, I was reminded of a joke:

    “I love work…I love it so much I could watch others do it for hours”

    Dave may be impressed with Christians in this country, but he himself is a spectator-Christian. He may even love the church so much that he wants to heap praise on it (not that Christians seek the praise of man). He may be impressed with Christians (especially when they aare holding a voting card). But does DC love Christ enough to actually serve Him himself? If not, then his praise is meaningless.

    The phrase “..where we stand for the freedom to practise your faith, and where we stand up for Christians and all those who are persecuted anywhere in our world.

    …” would have made me laugh were it not such a serious issue. In fact it seems utter BS to me. I don’t remember any Prime Minister in recent times who has done more to marginalise, alienate and encourage the persecution Christians than David Cameron. He has all but ignored the plight of Christians in the Middle East, while giving succour to their persecutors. At home he has vandalised marriage and the family, encouraged the slaughter of the unborn child, and permitted our school children to be corrupted with LGBT propaganda from an age where probably don’t even know about the “birds and the bees”. I wonder if he has read the latest C4M publication which catalogues the plight of 30 people in this country persecuted for supporting traditional (Christian) marriage?

    No. This is at best a PR stunt. At worst, it is just canvassing the Christian vote. To all Christian voters I would say: Words are cheap. Judge a tree by its fruit.

  • The Explorer

    “Whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my brother, my sister my mother.” I’m not sure it follows from that that we are ALL one big family; for not everyone does the will of my Father. There are those who think that my Father does not exist; or that His will (especially on sexual matters) is misguided. There are even those who think him a sadistic, masochistic bully. (The idea of HIm, I mean: given his non-existence.)

    Paradoxically, although Christianity is the religion of “Love your neighbour as yourself”, it is not a religion that says we are all children of God. It is a religion that says we can BECOME children of God, but that’s not the same thing.

    “All men are brothers” is a wonderful sentiment; but, apart from loving your neighbour, it is not a Christian one.

    • Martin

      TE

      Likewise, we are not all God’s children for some, although they know He exists, pretend there is no God in their rebellion.

  • sarky

    Sorry but it’s just cynical electioneering!!! Cameron’s christianity is white, middle class and puts more than change in the collection plate each week. Actions speak louder than words and this govermnents actions have been anything but christian.

    • Martin

      Sarky

      Indeed, their adoption of fake marriage was clearly an unchristian act.

  • carl jacobs

    Hrmmmm. What’s the key word in this statement?

    Now your dedication to family – your family is blood, and your family is humanity – it goes way beyond this room. I think of how many ways you love your neighbour: with care for those who are sick and lonely; with mentoring for teenagers who think they have no hope; with fundraising for hospices, for looked-after children, for those suffering unimaginable trauma overseas. And like Jesus turning water into wine, you turn loneliness into companionship; you turn deprivation into comfort; you turn lost lives into lives with purpose.

    I gave it away, didn’t I?

    This statement betrays an operational utilitarian view of religion. It doesn’t take account of truth because truth doesn’t matter. It doesn’t take account of God because God doesn’t matter. It concerns itself only with the intersection of man and the temporal world in which he exists. “Does religion give some men a purpose? That is good! Men need a purpose to live happy productive lives and sustain themselves in trials.” But is it a true purpose? That question is not relevant because the question extends the answer beyond the temporal existence of man. Any purpose from any religion will do, so long as it achieves the right outcome.

    Men do not give themselves purpose by adopting a religion. They receive purpose from their Creator. When a religion is described in terms of what men do instead of what God does, then men are being flattered at the expense of God. And why would a politician flatter a crowd?

    • john in cheshire

      Better if he’d stood before these people and said behold me, a penitent sinner. But he probably couldn’t because he isn’t.
      However, Messrs. Milliband and Clegg don’t even believe in God.
      But doesn’t God have something to say about those who know better being worse than those who know nothing? Who’s worse amongst them; I suppose that’s for God to decide.

  • Inspector General

    Cameron did God, with all the gravitas of a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman. Indeed, while there he was asked “are you buying or selling?”

    He didn’t leave empty handed, for lo, he was confirmed as ‘Prince of Spivs’. For his interest in the Creator was shallow and rootless…

    • carl jacobs

      Cameron did God, with all the gravitas of a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman.

      Concise, and to the point.

    • dannybhoy

      I loved the scarf round the head look..
      http://metro.co.uk/2015/04/18/david-cameron-dons-orange-patka-on-visit-to-sikh-temple-5156422/
      Or had he just ‘been Tangoed’?

      • Inspector General

        Very good Danny. And now, Cameron dons Christianity on visit to Christians…

        • dannybhoy

          I think it was rather patronising personally. A good Christian would reach out into the Sikh community quietly and without fanfare. But a politician with an election to win wouldn’t..

          • CliveM

            They are all voter tarts, we can’t be surprised when the behave to type.

          • dannybhoy

            That’s a bit cynical and unkind, coming from such a gentle chap as yourself.. 😉

          • CliveM

            Didn’t say I was gentle, just not a big fan of viewing violence. Tom and Jerry, fine. A real decapitation, not fine!! ;0)

  • Shadrach Fire

    The Christian vote must not forget the damage Cameron did to the state of marriage. We want conservatism, but we don’t want Cameronism. We want God, but not Dave’s view of Christian life.

  • Uncle Brian

    Let us be proud that this is a Christian country. However insincere, mercenary, vote-catching, two-faced, or hypocritical Cameron’s words may have been, the fact that he uttered them at all is quite an achievement in the present state of British values. Well done, Dave!

    • Shadrach Fire

      How can you say ‘Well done Dave’. He only spoke the words because he had 45,000 voters to convince. What he really would have like to say was, You Evangelical, Pentecostal types, your all OTT and if Harriett had her way you would all be classed as extremists and likely to spread rebellion in the ever increasing liberal society leading to perdition of which I am all for, except for when you voluntarily do the social work and reduces government costs so we can spend more and more on restrictive legislation.

      • Uncle Brian

        Lip service is better than no service at all. Not always — I wouldn’t go that far. But in this case, at least, I’d say it was. Can’t see why not.

    • The Explorer

      Like that comment by Dr Johnson about a dog walking on its hind legs: not that the thing is done well, but surprise that it is done at all.

      • Uncle Brian

        Right, Explorer! We applaud circus acts, don’t we, when they’re well done?

    • dannybhoy

      We must give him the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds very like the sanitised version of Christianity popular in Anglican circles. (our vicar is an honourable exception). When you concentrate on the serving, giving and tolerance aspects of the Gospel, you are only giving half the Gospel. The bit that really changes people…

  • HG
    “For David Cameron, the Church is those who are called out of every
    kindred, tongue, people and nation to do the will of God. The worship
    is not simply upwards to glorify, but outwards to serve. As the
    Church gathers, it ministers in love, one saint to the other, but
    also to sinners, demonstrating salvation to a lost and dying world.
    The Prime Minister’s theological priority is not obedience to
    commandments or the meeting of certain moral standards, but to do
    good and love one another, which is the basic principle of Christian
    ethics.”

    Come off it! The Prime Minister’s theological priority here is to pretend
    to be one of them by pretending to understand where they are coming
    from in order to lull them into voting Conservative, nothing more.
    He didn’t write that speech, he’s a weaselling charlatan.

  • CliveM

    I see another one of those sickening videos has been released. This time Ethiopian Christians marched down to the beach to be slaughtered.

    When? Where? How?

    Indeed. Unless evidence is shown, the answer seems to be no-where, no-how, no-when.

    • Uncle Brian

      I don’t watch those videos, though. Snuff movies have never been to my taste.

      • CliveM

        I don’t watch them. I just read that they are released. The BBC reported this.

        I agree it would be like watching the worst kind of snuff move, a sort of porn for violence.

        Has anyone watched them on this site?

        • dannybhoy

          I have done Clive.

          • CliveM

            Really?

            I must be honest I’m not good with violence, whether simulated or real. For example I haven’t watched the Mel Gibson Christ movie.

          • dannybhoy

            O I wouldn’t watch that on principle, but I admit to being curious about how you could decapitate someone in cold blood. I wish I hadn’t. However we should be under no illusions about what will happen here if we don’t drop the compassionate humanitarian bit…

        • The Explorer

          I checked them out on Youtube. There were four versions I came across. Two had already been blanked out. The other two were identical and lasted less than a minute. They showed the procession being led to the shore and made to kneel.

          • CliveM

            Thanks. I think from what DB says, others have been more explicit.

            I sort of resent the press coverage of these videos as I believe it acts as encouragement for more.

          • dannybhoy

            Clive,
            I watched quite a few when the situation in Syria and Iraq began to really deteriorate and IS was getting going and I was reading about Shari’a law and punishment. Quite horrific.

        • DanJ0

          I watched a beheading one some time ago involving some Nepalese victims. It was very sad and depressing, but not as shocking as I thought it would be. I have no intention of watching one again. I wanted to understand what goes on, and also to get fully in touch with my anger. I also watched a clip the blog owner here posted of some Arab Spring fighters being attacked back when we thought things might turn out better. That had me sobbing at my computer, and left me a little traumatised for a while to be honest. I think I needed to see that though, as we tend to be emotionally sanitised to the realities of war here in the UK even when we’re rationally aware of the impact on local people.

          • Inspector General

            One recalls the attempts of fellows on this site to sanitise war, and to give it rules, as if it were some pastime natural to mankind. Made this man extremely annoyed at the foolishness of intelligent people here who should have known better…

          • CliveM

            I can understand the reasoning and don’t disagree with it.

            I suppose my other objection is these people are wanting me to watch. I don’t see why I should oblige.

          • Dreadnaught

            Don’t know about you, but having seen the graphic and the censored I now find myself less shocked by the acts but more shocked at how such atrocities have become the norm and my shock threshold numb. SFS or shock fatigue syndrome I guess and I’m non too happy to have succcumbed.

          • Uncle Brian

            I wanted to understand what goes on, and also to get fully in touch with my anger.
            I can understand your motivation, DanJo, but I’ve already had my first heart attack and I’m in no rush to get fully in touch, as you say, with my second one.

          • William Lewis

            Our culture doesn’t talk about or deal with death nearly enough. The Victorians did all the time but never discussed sex. We have completely reversed that dynamic.

        • sarky

          I wouldn’t recommend anyone watching this stuff voluntarily. Unfortunately I have to watch these videos (and much worse) as part of my job. This stuff has a habit of staying with you and popping into your thoughts when you least expect it. I find it particularly difficult dealing with stuff, especially to do with children and then going home to my family. I would like to think I’m a strong person, but I’m not ashamed to admit that I have taken advantage of free counseling from time to time.

          • William Lewis

            You need eternal life. Put your faith in the giver of life, Sarky, and go in peace.

          • sarky

            Is this the same ‘giver of life’ who sits idly by while this stuff happens?

          • William Lewis

            No

          • sarky

            Which one is out then?

          • William Lewis

            The one that Nardine spoke of in the previous article.

          • CliveM

            Sarky thanks for the response.

            You appear to have a very difficult job, one I couldn’t do.

            May God bless you in it.

      • dannybhoy

        I stopped watching them. Too upsetting.
        “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”
        Philippians 4:8 (ESVUK)

    • dannybhoy

      As I have mentioned before Clive, how can it be that our leaders secular or spiritual urge tolerance and understanding on Muslims here, whilst those whose only crime is to be Christian are slaughtered in Muslim lands and our leaders have nothing to say about it?

      • CliveM

        Oh they talk, occasionally, they just don’t “do”.

  • Uncle Brian

    Tony Abbott downing a half-litre of beer in a few seconds in a Sydney pub is being shown on the Brazilian news channels. Hasn’t Our Nige done anything as newsworthy as that? I don’t think I seen him even once on Brazilian TV.

    • dannybhoy

      You watch Brazilian tv?
      Are you nuts!

      • Inspector General

        Apparently, if you like tits, it’s a must watch… {Ahem}

        • Uncle Brian

          There’s something in what you say, Inspector. Here’s a beer commercial now being aired quite frequently, that has got the feminists quite upset. Don’t worry about not understanding Portuguese – it doesn’t need subtitles.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64kqOYkfCsk

          • Inspector General

            Thank you Brain. Indeed, the advert was fully understandable as you said. All we’re offered in the UK is chocolate with a hint of Eastern promise. Not the same, really…

          • CliveM

            LOL

          • Inspector General

            Feminism – the career choice for boot ugly university educated young ladies of a certain weight and hairiness…

          • Linus

            Like Inna and Alexandra Shevchenko of Femen fame, you mean?

            Inna’s so attractive she was chosen as the model for the latest incarnation of Marianne, the spirit of the Revolution, who appears on French stamps.

            Right-wing politicians like the notoriously dumpy and unattractive model of Catholic virtue Christine Boutin (who’s married to her own first cousin, btw…) had a fit and vowed never to lick another stamp again. I don’t know what she’s afraid of catching, but whatever it is, it’s unlikely she’ll pass it on to her children. Gene mutations caused by inbreeding on the other hand…

          • Inspector General

            Calm down, you bitter old queer, you’ll do yourself an injury…

          • Linus

            Poor old Inspector, backed into a corner again. Personal abuse is the only weapon he has left.

            There, there, old boy. Let it all out! It must be terrible knowing you’re trapped like a rat in a maze and will die in prison. Go ahead and have a good cry. You’ll feel much better in the morning even though the hopelessness of your situation won’t have changed a bit…

          • Inspector General

            What’s the problem? You are a bitter old queer, are you not? You modus operandi is that of a bitter old queer. You are here because you are a bitter old queer…

            No offence meant, old chap.

        • CliveM

          You mean Brazilian politicians?!!

          • The Explorer

            Not politicians. They aren’t worth looking at. As for the other…

          • Uncle Brian

            No, he said tits, not c***s!

          • CliveM

            ROFL…………

            ;0)

      • The Explorer

        Them Brazilian women, you know. The Inspector has expressed the same concept ina rather more anatomically-specific version.

  • The Explorer

    “This is a Christian country.” Definition 1. Alternative definitions.
    2. This is a Christian country in the process of being de-Christianised.
    3. This is a secular country, not yet rid of its residual Christianity.
    4. This is a Muslim country, not yet Islamicised. (Except in parts.)
    Imagine those four points as part of a timeline. Stick in a pin to indicate where along the line you think we’re at.

    • carl jacobs

      It’s a secular country that resembles nothing so much as the man from whom a demon was cast out. That tidy empty house of the parable is a perfect metaphor for the sterile brittle shell of Secularism. It waits only for the new tenants to take up residence. And what will be their names?

      Man is by nature a pagan and will revert to paganism in the absence of any counterveiling force. Secularism is the journey and not the destination. Islam is the trigger. The destination is Molech. Behold he comes, riding in a cloud of smoke and fire.

      • sarky

        Sorry about that, a hose came off my turbo and the old jag was smoking like an expectant father. Wasn’t driving to molech though!!!

    • dannybhoy

      Good one Explorer.

    • Darter Noster

      I’d go for 3 personally.

      I don’t honestly believe we’ll ever become a Muslim country though.

      • dannybhoy

        I’d plump for 3 2.

      • Inspector General

        Strip away the thin veneer of democracy and you have who really ‘owns’ the country, and it’s as white as the finest marble. In fact, our owners love democracy in as much as the plebs ‘think’ they are in charge when of course they certainly are not. Hence the ownership is not disputed in any meaningful way.

        The worst that can happen to the UK is to become another Egypt. A democratically, say 51% of the population, agitating for Sharia, and our owners military forces prepared to deny them. With of course, as much force and blood spilt to achieve that aim. Good old democracy, I say!

      • The Explorer

        I doubt it myself. Demographics COULD do it possibly, if we look at the example of the USA.

        In 1960, the USA was 90% European in origin. (If Mexicans are treated as non-European in origin, despite the Spanish influence.) Then came the 1965 Immigration Act (global access) and massive immigration from Mexico.

        in 2012, the USA was 65% European in origin. On current trends, by 2050 those of European origin will be the largest minority group. By 2090, they will no longer be even the largest minority group. They will be a minority outright. I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing; I’m simply saying – I hope as neutrally as possible – that it might be a demographic reality.

        That, of course, is all speculative, and based on the continuance of current trends. Who can say what other factors might intervene? But it’s one possible outcome.

    • Martin

      TE

      I’d say there has never been a Christian country for Christians are always a small minority. Once this country was influenced by Christians but it seems that now Christians are despised.

      • Darter Noster

        True Christianity seems to do best when it is persecuted. It’s as if we were never meant to be a cosseted and government-protected people.

        The best Christianity is counter-cultural. Inculturated Christianity becomes fat and comfortable, and ends up like the Church of England and, in certain places, the Roman Church, trying to justify itself by and adapt itself to the secular culture around it.

      • The Explorer

        Yes, it might be fair to say that the Christian core remains a fairly consistent percentage, but sometimes it is influential in society, and sometimes it isn’t.

  • The Explorer

    In his column today, Peter Hitchens cites two Muslims praying at a football match and applauds their courage. At the time of the Armenian massacres (they happened in stages), there were Muslims who hid Armenians, just as there were Germans who hid Jews. Documentary evidence of their reactions exists.
    I read constantly that there are Muslims appalled at what is being done in the name of their religion. I don’t doubt the reaction; I am unsure of the reason for it. Is it an uncomfortable awareness of what the dictates of the religion, long in abeyance but now vigorously re-asserted, actually are?

  • Spock Puppet

    Yes, every five years David Cameron discovers that he believes in God.

    But we’ve seen through his humbug.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Who wrote that for him? He could never have written it himself.

  • balaam

    To find out if Cameron is sincere you have to look at his record. A Prime Minister in a recession defying his own backbenchers by not cutting foreign aid when lots of cuts are being made, as Cameron did early in this last term.

    So well done Dave on that.

    Less well done Dave on failing to explain what he meant by Big Society. If he wanted care to be done by society rather than government, then I believe more could be done to encourage people to get involved. He could have helped people to get involved by government incentives, things don’t get started on their own.

    Daves school report on the first term : Heart in the right place but could do more.

    • Darter Noster

      Given the amount of corruption and waste involved in the foreign aid budget, and the dubious governments who get British taxpayers money as direct budget contributions to spend on tin-pot vanity projects or siphon off into Swiss accounts, I find it hard to view Dave’s commitment to spending money on foreign aid as an entirely wonderful decision.

      Much like the insane Climate Change Act, it’s fashionably ethical willy-waving that does more harm than good.

      • balaam

        If you say so Darter, I’m sure you know the political situation in all the countries aid goes to.

        • Darter Noster

          And you do?

          The biggest possible help to impoverished countries is decent governance and free trade. The former is not helped by channelling large amounts of government money to them, and the latter is rendered impossible by EU trade rules.

          If you want to help African countries, then stop paying for their useless governments and remove tariffs on their exports.

          • sarky

            Always believed you should feed your own before you feed someone else’s.
            Once your own house is in order then look to help others.

          • Dominic Stockford

            You know sarky – that’s right, and its biblical !

            “if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God” 1 Timothy 5.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Committing to foreign aid is committing to ‘looking statesmen like’ in the eyes of other countries – nothing to do with home. How can it be right to plough billions in to unused offices and dictators pockets? That isn’t aid.

  • Martin

    Of course Hitler was quite adept at praising those he needed, as long as he needed them. That’s why some imagine he was a Christian.

    • Darter Noster

      Hitler was no Christian. If anything he was an atheist. He seems to have had very little time for Himmler’s fantasy of turning the SS into a pseudo-pagan Germanic cult. All the evidence we have suggests he thought that these religious overtones in the SS were a load of cobblers.

      When he married, he did so with the Berlin registrar. Religion was something Hitler tolerated but had no time for. These Christian Identity freaks or BNP nuts like Colin Jordan who portray him as some sort of Messiah are deluding themselves. Hitler even tolerated rampant homosexuality in the SA until it became politically inconvenient.

      Hitler worshipped one thing; himself.

      • Darter Noster

        And let’s not forget the people who worked against Hitler’s evil. People like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and St. Maximilian Kolbe, and the many thousands of others who helped Jews and disabled people to survive.

        Christian or not, I believe God will smile upon those who risked or gave their lives to help their fellow human beings.

        At this time of the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Bergen Belsen, I think of my grandad, who was one of the first British troops to go in there.

        That sort of crap must never be allowed to happen again – which means tackling ISIS and Islamism in the strongest possible way.

      • Martin

        DN

        “Hitler worshipped one thing; himself.

        That is, of course, the nature of the Atheist religion.

  • The hypocrisy of Cameron is breathtaking. He has presided over the most anti-Christian government ever, seen more Christians losing their livelihoods and diminished Christian liberties than any other leader since Charles II.
    .
    Throw the rascal out!

    • Linus

      “Cameron out! Miliband in!”

      Who’d have thought I’d ever hear a Christian chanting that slogan on an extreme right wing blog?

      Amazing what a desire for vengeance can do to a man. Come election day the floor of this place will be littered with severed noses and Ed Miliband’s NHS funding promises will be put to the test as the nation’s casualty wards are assailed by a wave of Christians sporting self-inflicted facial wounds…

      • Darter Noster

        Extreme right wing blog? Absolute cobblers.

        And what have Ed Miliband’s fantasy policies based upon spending more than we have got to do with Christianity anyway?

        • Linus

          But of course Nicola Sturgeon will be Minister of Health by then so she’ll be standing at the hospital door turning all you disfigured Christians away and saying “och ye puir wee sassenachs, we need that money for Scots hospitals so ye’ll just have tae bleed tae death, so ye wull…”

          • Darter Noster

            Nicola Sturgeon will do a job that no one in England can do – the SNP and Plaid Cymru are the only parties allowed to be nationalist without being racist.

            Any party campaigning for English independence will be condemned as neo-nazis, so the best way to get it is through the SNP.

            Big up Nicola Sturgeon.

          • Linus

            If Sturgeon is smart, she’ll drag things out for as long as she can and milk every last drop from the Westminster udder before declaring independence. You’re in for years of being sucked dry by a parasitic spouse who’s planning to leave you and determined to take the family silver with her.

            This is better than Dallas!

          • Dreadnaught

            No she won’t as she’s not standing but Salmond is, and that prospect should be exploited by DC and the CP to strike fear into the hearts of English tory voters and propell them into the polling booths.

          • Linus

            Sturgeon is just Salmond in a dress and given the propensity for Scotland’s men to wear kilts, and the mannish set of its female politicians’ jaws, most foreigners won’t be able to tell the difference.

            Whoever the individuals in cabinet may be, the balance of power will rest firmly in Edinburgh.

            Of course I make no predictions. Who can tell whether Ms Sturgeon’s acidic presence won’t make the natural insularity of the English float to the surface like the solids in curdling milk? Ukip’s warm and sickly sweet English ale has already caused some of the cream to rise and it’s starting to smell distinctly “off”. But to complete the separation process and make the sort of xenophobic cheese the Conservatives need to feed their hopes of victory, something far more concentrated and acidic is called for. The sour grapes of disappointed Scottish referendum hopes may just get the job done.

            Whinging bloody Scots are only slightly less foreign to most Colonel Blimps and their tweedy wives than whinging bloody Frogs, whinging bloody Wops and whinging bloody Krauts. So the prospect of the SNP wielding power might just propel Cameron back into Number 10 on a wave of foreigner bashing.

            I’m not familiar enough with the demographics to be able to predict the outcome. Do the numbers favour the tweed Counties “hooray” vote, or the chavvy Burberry “yoof” vote? Ed could still win by donning a designer baseball cap and gettin’ real wiff da homies, innit?

            Whatever the outcome, it puts a spring in the step of every Frenchman to see our hereditary enemy overcome by doubt and confusion. What goes around comes around and braying English pride (“We won the war! We’re richer than you! We were right about the euro! We’re just soooo much better than you awful foreigners!”) has been setting you up for a fall for some time now. When it comes, we’ll help you up of course. We’re nice like that. But we won’t be able to stop laughing as we do…

          • The Explorer

            “Our hereditary enemy overcome by doubt and confusion”.
            England has always had doubt and confusion, even in its Victorian apogee. Look at its poetry

            “There lies more faith in honest doubt…” (1849)

            “The sick hurry and divided aims…” (1853)

            “Driven by confused alarms of hurry and flight…” (1867)

      • Inspector General

        “Extreme right wing blog” !!

        Such predictable militant homosexual hyperbole…

        • Linus

          One can almost hear you sharpening the knife ready to slice off that nose of yours. You really can’t see the wood for the trees, can you? Is the main point whether this is an extreme right wing blog or not, or the fact that by voting against Cameron, you help put your own worst nightmare into office?

          Not my problem of course, I don’t live in the UK. But it might be quite amusing to watch the country split apart under the ineffective leadership of a gurning buffoon remote-controlled from Edinburgh and his scrappy wee puppet master (or mistress).

          Whether you like it or not Cameron or some other Conservative will be your prime minister soon enough, but prime minister of what exactly?

          • bluedog

            ‘…but prime minister of what exactly?’ Most likely the United Kingdom. The more Miliband dissembles about a quasi-coalition with the SNP, the more Labour and the SNP raise the prospect of the end of the UK. Even the Little Englanders will soon be forced to confront this reality and its unknown and unsettling consequences. Miliband and Sturgeon are a gift to Cameron, who can now wrap himself in the flag and look uncharacteristically sincere. Ironically, the Miliband-Sturgeon cinq-a-sept allows Cameron to steal Nigel Farage’s jingoistic clothes.

          • Linus

            True enough and for the future of the UK one can only hope you’re right. But who can tell what will happen on the day?

            Cameron’s chances of an outright majority look slim. The same bitter thirst for vengeance that motivates so many posters here means that at least some of his support has bled away permanently to Ukip, although probably not enough to give them many (or any) MPs. But with margins as close as the polls are suggesting, it’s hard to see how that won’t be fatal for him. Splitting the right wing vote can only help Labour’s cause.

            But perhaps the whole “Land of Hope and Glory” thing will kick in like it did during the final days before the Scottish referendum and save him at the last moment. I guess we’ll see soon enough.

          • carl jacobs

            Paradoxically, the best way to save the UK is to let the Scots vote for, and approve independence. Then let them realize the consequences of what they have done. Hard. The whole exercise will collapse within six months when the public finally understands that all the magic promises are so much dust. All the UK has to do is say “You get nothing.” Fear will take over, and the SNP will dissolve amidst a flurry of capital flight.

          • bluedog

            Carl
            Your suggestion plays straight into the hands of the EU, and as such, while it may possibly work, entails a very high risk on a number of fronts.

            In the first instance, a policy of ‘teaching the Scots a lesson’ is similar to the EU’s own attitude in its dealings with Greece. The net effect is to entrench the insurgent political party, in this case the SNP, while in Greece it’s Syriza, validating claims of oppression and arrogance by the metropolitan power and setting up the preconditions for a multi-generational rupture. Look no further than the UK’s mishandling of the Irish Question to see what I mean.

            One would very much hope that somewhere in Westminster there are individuals with sufficient historical knowledge, emotional intelligence and humility to avoid the mistake of treating the Scots like second-class citizens and completely misreading the appeal of the SNP. Reverse psychology is required.

            The EU is a critical factor in the emergence of the SNP in that Scotland has been ear-marked as a single EU region while England is not, apparently being destined to be split into a number of regions. While the EU has currently backed away from this policy, the damage has been done.

            The EU is lavish with grants for remote areas of Europe and has a fascination with colourful ethnicities. For example, shortly after the UK joined what was then the Common Market, this writer can recall a fencing grant becoming available for what might be called moorland grazings. Some genius in Brussels must have decided that running livestock on unfenced commons was a bad idea and that fences would improve the efficiency of these grazing enterprises. So fences were duly erected here and there, grants were received and highly profitable work was undertaken. Did the fences join up? No. Were there any enclosures? No. But the EU wanted fences, so they got them. This sort of largesse has entered the folklore and the Scottish race memory and may explain why some Scots think the EU will be the saviour of an ‘independent’ Scotland.

            Accordingly, one highly effective antidote to the SNP is for the UK to leave the EU. Then the bizarre grants, the regional policy by which the EU usurps the national government and all the rest of the subversion are neutralised. But of course, the metropolitan political elite is just as beholden to the EU as Scottish hill farmers in very remote corners of Scotland.

            However, there is no doubt in this writer’s mind that if the UK were to be reconfigured on a federal constitutional basis, the Scots would be quite happy to be a constituent nation. So would the English, whose own nationalism, long suppressed, has re-emerged. Once again the problem lies within the metropolitan elite for whom the current Parliament works just fine. After years of progressing from nowhere to obscurity, many of them end up as life-peers with a perpetual seat on the gravy train, all 800 of them. So which member of the House of Commons or the House of Lords is going to vote to end the racket that suits them so well? The answer is none, which explains why the crisis drags on without a single strategic thought of how to resolve the matter. Hopefully a leader who can join up the dots will finally emerge.

          • carl jacobs

            bluedog

            The UK isn’t leaving Europe. The political and business classes don’t want to leave. They will find ways to frustrate the desire. So you can dream about ending SNP by leaving Europe, but it isn’t going to happen. Anyways, given what’s going on in Greece, I don’t think Europe has the stomach for taking on yet another small nation with too much debt relative to GDP.

            But there is another aspect. The UK has it within its power to keep Scotland out of the EU. This is important, because it will force Scotland to confront the issue of currency, and present the average Scottish voter with the specter of destitution. That is the key. When voters confront the reality of having their assets 1) forcibly converted to a new Scottish currency or 2) removed from the security of guarantees provided by the BOE, they will act to protect themselves. And they will have literally months to act.

            So the UK has only to:

            1. Extend the “negotiations” as long as possible even as it presents an image of being reasonable and fair.
            2. Make it absolutely clear that no currency union is forthcoming.
            3. Keep Scotland out of the EU.
            4. Let fear work its magic.

            Capital flight and business flight will accomplish what reason and persuasion could not. The key to beating the SNP is to expose the financial well-being of everyone in Scotland to the reality of what the SNP is proposing.

          • bluedog

            What you outline above is pretty much the position of the UK government in dealing with the SNP during last year’s referendum campaign. It worked then but the SNP have simply ramped up their lies since.

          • carl jacobs

            The point is to expose the lies to reality. So don’t oppose the second referendum. Don’t campaign against it. Be neutral. If it passes, then confront them with the harsh reality behind what they have chosen. Only give them a magnanimous and face-saving way to return.

          • bluedog

            The point is the second referendum is itself a lie. The previous SNP leader Alex Salmond explicitly said during the first indyref campaign, this is it, we’re not doing it again. Sturgeon has reneged on that. It is therefore entirely reasonable for the British government to oppose a second referendum, as it is doing.

          • carl jacobs

            btw, as an aside. What is going on in Greece has nothing to do with “teaching Greece a lesson.” Greece is effectively demanding transfer payments to fund the Greek welfare state, and the economies of Northern Europe are saying “No, we aren’t going to do that.” Greece should never have been let into the EU but here they are. So the Germans are trying to force the Greeks to step up to their financial responsibilities after the fact, but that will be painful, and the Greeks don’t want to do it. They want the Germans to keep shoveling money into Greece so Greeks can keep on living as they want. But now the gravy train is coming to an end. So Greece spasmodically elected Syriza to “make the Germans” do what Greece wants. How is that working out for Greece at the moment?

          • bluedog

            Completely agree the Greeks should never have joined the EU or the EMU but they were encouraged to do so by the EU. Having decided to set up a currency without a sovereign power to back it, the EU wanted all Europe to join the party, including the Greeks. The Greeks cooked the books to qualify, the EU didn’t want to look too hard and hey presto the Greeks were waved through.

            But there’s a curious symbiotic relationship in the EU between Germany and the rest of Europe. 50% of German GDP is derived from exports, see link: https://www.quandl.com/c/economics/exports-as-share-of-gdp-by-country. It follows that without this export income Germany would be a much poorer country, and you would struggle to find an EU economy that was not running a trade deficit with Germany. Arguably the problem is Germany, not Greece, and the Greeks are just the weakest link in a chain of structural problems within the EMU. This is the strength of the Greek position. They are highlighting the vulnerability of Germany to a collapse of its tame export market, the EU.
            So when you ask, ‘How’s that working out for Greece at the moment?’ I’d say ‘better than expected’.

          • carl jacobs

            bluedog

            ‘better than expected’

            You think? Greece is about to fall off the edge of the financial world. It’s out of liquidity, can’t meet its obligations, and is about to be forced to impose capital controls. The entire country is hurtling towards financial devastation. Germany may be the problem. Or perhaps it was the idiotic idea that economic union would inevitably lead to political integration. Either way, it’s Greece that’s going over the cliff.

            Google “Grexit” and you’ll see what I mean.

          • ‘And always keep a hold of nurse,
            For fear of finding something worse.’

            No thanks.

      • dannybhoy

        “Who’d have thought I’d ever hear a Christian chanting that slogan on an extreme right wing blog?”
        Extreme right wing blog?
        You must be joking Linus.
        As far as I can tell there are as many left of centrists here as there are right of centrists. Please tell us how this ‘extreme right wing bias’ manifests itself here?

  • David

    You have to award Cameron top prize for sheer brazen hypocrisy and callous vote harvesting from the gullible.
    Here at home he has led the most anti-Christian government ever. It is daily becoming more difficult to live the faith with abortions for all, no questions asked, and the very definition of marriage, and therefore family life, all deliberately under attack. So socially Cameron supports Marxist thinking.
    Abroad he worsens the plight of Christians by making war on the previously unsavoury regimes, that nevertheless kept the peace, making life possible for them there. The current tsunami of refugees crossing the Med. from Libya is down to Cameron and Hollande bombing the hell out of Gadaffi’s regime.
    All Cameron loves is POWER, for himself and his cronies.
    If Scotland is desperate to go, then seeking to retain it will only exacerbate their hatred of England. It’s sad, very sad, but that’s the reality of the inevitable outworking of Blair’s “vision” – what a disaster Socialism is !
    Breaking up the UK is sad, but not as sad to me as my country, England, remaining embedded within the anti-Christian EU Empire. So my vote and efforts remain with UK1P, a party for nation states, and the defence of our Judaeo-Christian heritage.

  • len

    ‘Cameron does God’
    One gets the feeling that Cameron would’ do anything’ if it brought in a vote.
    ‘Hypocrite’ doesn`t quite cover the actions of this man….

    • William Lewis

      He should carry a health warning: “Slippery when elect.”

      Does anyone know if his promise of an EU referendum would be a redline commitment in any coalition negotiations?

  • The Explorer

    I’m hazy on this, but my understanding is that independence for Scotland (and Wales and NI and London) is envisaged by the EU. Those four, and England divided into eight provinces, making twelve EU provinces in all. ‘Independence’ is the wrong world: redependence, but on Brussels.

    I vaguely remember a different scheme to combine the south of England with the Pas de Calais, but that seems to have died as an idea. However, the disappearance of all the existing EU countries, and their replacement with EU provinces, is presumably the long-term plan. If so, are we playacting about decisions that aren’t really ours to make?

    Anyone know?

    • Linus

      Sounds like the sort of conspiracy theory that reactionaries and Eurosceptics regularly trot out when they’re having trouble whipping up hatred against the EU.

      There is no long term plan in Brussels to do away with the member states. It’s possible a few radical federalists may have floated the idea as part of a highly theoretical “United States of Europe” blueprint, but it’s never been official European policy. I certainly don’t see it becoming so anytime soon.

      The scheme you’re talking about regarding the south of England and the Pas de Calais was dreamed up by local officials on both sides of the Channel a few years after Eurotunnel opened. It was more about marketing than anything else. They wanted to promote the “Transmanche” region to business owners as being a good place to relocate to, although I believe the scheme died a death when the English realized that the French were really just trying to cream a little of the prosperity of southern England off and pump it through the tunnel into one of France’s most depressed regions.

      It didn’t work of course. Depression is in the Pas de Calais’ DNA. Look at the neighborhood they live in! The English on one side, the Belgians on the other. Enough to make anyone suicidal. And to make matters worse, Jacques Delors’ daughter Martine Aubry rules them from Lille with a Stalinist rod of iron. Her all-piercing eye sees into the souls of all that crawl in the Flemish mud and holds them in utter subjection. It’s the Mordor of France. Abandon hope all ye who enter there!!!

      • The Explorer

        Thank you. I’m probably got some sort of aftermath of the Maastricht Treaty lingering around in my mind.
        The EU reaction to the prospect of Scottish independence (unfavourable) supports the points you have made.

      • bluedog

        Never any need for a conspiracy theory where the EU is concerned, the facts are more than enough.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      I’m not sure you are correct about the EU and provinces, Explorer. During the Scottish referendum debate I seem to remember the EU was against independence, as it was for Catalonia too. I think the EU feels it already has its provinces, and doesn’t like anybody trying to disturb its “kingdom”.

      • The Explorer

        The Maastricht Treaty had something about the individual countries dividing themselves up into regions, and it may be that I’m thinking of. I remember some Spanish EU minister for something chiding the Scots before the referendum, and opinion saying that he was afraid the Scots would stir up the Basques. So I think you’re right, and I was just being a conspiracy theorist.

        • Politically__Incorrect

          Nothing wrong with an occasional conspiracy theory. I’m beginning to wonder if we really landed on the moon.

          • len

            Me too!.
            When one realises that most Governments couldn`t organise a p** up in a brewery how on earth did they get a man on the moon?.

        • bluedog

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England
          Note the comment about Maastricht and also that the constituencies for MEPs roughly overlap with the UK government’s regions. Wasn’t Two Jags’ referendum in the North-East designed to kick start the regional policy? As a supranational entity, the last thing the EU wants is nation states that are competitors to itself. So any claim that the EU doesn’t want regions rather than nations collides with that reality. EU regional policy seems to have waned somewhat in the face of objections by some nation states, particularly the UK and Spain, for obvious reasons.

    • David

      Hello there.
      Last time I looked the EU was against Scotland separating, explaining that they’d have to reapply from outside the EU and euro, for membership of both, which then triggered the angst about which currency they could use. Scots. Nats said the £ was theirs too, and the B of E responded saying, “oh no it isn’t” – remember ?
      But the EU’s anti-breakaway stance could have much to do with the fears the French and, Spain especially, have about their aspirant breakaways.

  • Retired Paul

    Interesting to see how he refers to ‘you’ Christians and ‘your’ values. He is proud ‘we’ live in a Christian country and ‘we’ can stand up for Christians.

    Is he deliberately, or unconsciously, separating himself from his audience?

    • dannybhoy

      “…I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might secure some more votes….”

      1 Corinthians 9:22
      Sincere apologies to Saint Paul..

  • Anton

    Actions speak louder than words, Mr Cameron. I shall decide whether to vote for your party according to the former, not the latter.