Lambeth Iftar 2016
Church of England

Brexit may have spurred a few racists, but the heartbeat of the nation is unity and tolerance

 

“How can you side with bigots and racists?” “How can you support the vile BNP agenda?” “You’re a Christian, for God’s sake, and here you are sowing division and hate, you stupid little man.” “Just f*** off and die.” “Here’s what you’ve done, you t**t” (accompanied by a picture of graffiti on a Polish community centre). “..not all Brexiters are racists and xenophobes, but all racists and xenophobes are Brexiters.” This is just a sample of recent missives received by social media and email.

Apparently, the result of the EU Referendum vote means “it’s become OK to be racist in Britain“. The left-liberal media are piling on the irrefutable causality. It seems that when racists agree with a political policy, the policy becomes unbearably toxic and must be dropped. If it can’t be dropped, Christians have a moral duty to reject it for the common good. The proposition is so politically naive and absurd it hardly merits refutation. The BNP advocates “a massive building programme for low-rent social housing that would both create jobs and new homes”. Labour had better jettison their identical proposal PDQ: they can’t possibly share common ground with bigots and racists.

There are undoubtedly some vile people out there who are abusing Asians, Muslims, Poles and Romanians, but it seems particularly crass for Remainers (including some senior clergy) to smear all Brexiters with the whiff of racism (not to mention stupidity). Controlling the nation’s borders was never about race, but numbers. Isn’t it actually less racist to advocate a points-based immigration system which gives brown-skinned and black-skinned people from the Commonwealth the same hopes of living and working in the UK as majority white Europeans currently enjoy? Isn’t it racially equitable to consider the immigration merits of the Indian doctor as well as the Polish plumber?

In the midst of all this reported discord and division (which, let’s be honest, has always been present in society but the left-wing media get tired of reporting it until they’ve got a new ideological right-wing ‘hate’ hook on which to hang it), Justin Welby was busy loving his neighbour by hosting the inaugural Lambeth Palace Iftar – the fast-breaking meal during Ramadan – with London’s first Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan and Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis. They were joined by a host of people, young and old, representing all faiths and cultures. “At a time of uncertainty and division, it’s a joy and privilege to celebrate this great world city with young people from different backgrounds and religious traditions,” the Archbishop said. The picture accompanying this post won’t feature in any of the mainstream media today: it doesn’t quite fit with the post-Brexit narrative.

Just as all Christians ought to reflect the integrity of the Trinity, Justin Welby’s substance and essence are in unity: he says what he means and lives what he says. A few politicians might learn from his substantial conviction and essential authenticity. God embraces unity in diversity: He is transcendent and immanent; dynamic and unchanging. In a world of constant change, nuanced diversity and ever-extending multiplicity, only by loving our neighbour can we begin to heal the splits, join the fragments and mend the tears in the fabric of society. We have a responsibility, as the Church of Jesus Christ, to respect difference and fellowship with the faithful and unfaithful. We are exhorted even to love our enemies, which must extend to our political opponents. So, instead of denouncing those who voted to leave the EU as fatuous, dense and doltish, perhaps a few Brexitophobic Remainophile clergy might reach out as Jesus did to prostitutes and tax collectors.

Unity in the Spirit transcends all petty politicking: the wisdom of God shows the wisdom of man to be folly. If you seek to represent and incarnate the ultimate unity of God in a world of hate and division, it really doesn’t help when you berate and patronise your neighbour for his political beliefs. No man is perfect in knowledge: our tweets reflect the fragmentary sequential thinking of our finite intelligences. Respect and tolerance are due to all. Perhaps Lambeth Palace needs to host the inaugural Brexiter-Remainer supper, and gather up rebellious priests with the primordial politicians over a glass or two of Shiraz, to talk all night of trust, cooperation, participation, responsibility, possibility, and the freedom there is in Christ of just letting be.

  • James60498 .

    Excellent again.

    Your point about what is less racist is of course clearly true.
    Equally clearly as a conservative you have no right to say that. “racist” is what the left liberals deem it to be. Everything is what the left liberals deem it to be.

    HOWEVER. It’s an excellent argument to use one to one. Particularly I would suspect with young people who are parroting the liberal line and would be horrified to be called racist themselves.

    Britain with the same population as France is one third the size. Under EU regulations you either allow in everyone (clearly unsustainable) or you allow in just (or mainly) white Europeans regardless of skills and abilities.
    Does that really need any additional explanation?

    • James60498 .

      Just redone the population density calculation based on England alone. England is 4 times as densely populated as France.
      The UK figure comes down to three because of the much lower populations in the rest of the U.K., and in particular Scotland.

      • Old Nick

        England, Scotland and Wales are roughly the same acreage taken together as the American state of Minnesota. The population of Minnesota is around 5 and a half million. The population of England, Scotland and Wales is about 65 million.

        • dannybhoy

          so…..
          you’re inviting some of us over?

          • Old Nick

            I do not live there. But there is no reason that Minnesotans should not be inviting very large numbers of people over who have been displaced as result of the wars fomented by the United States in the Near East.

  • Anton

    We can try, of course, but if the Remainers are simply determined to take the huff then there’s not a lot that can be done in the short term.

    And then there are relations with the rest of the EU. Nigel Farage was back at work in the European Parliament yesterday, not only playing a straight bat to accusations of Nazi tactics (from someone called Verhofstadt) but hitting the ball for four by telling the lot of them that they were “in denial”.

    Meanwhile, Teresa May is the “stop Boris” candidate. She has a petulant look about her and has done nothing as Home Secretary except tell us what we can’t do any more. And – above all – she is not a convinced Brexiteer, for just months ago she was saying we should not leave. While I have reservations about Boris, of the two of them it should clearly be him.

    • IanCad

      Good post Anton.
      Still think neither should be in the running though.

      • dannybhoy

        (This is why you came back to Blighty ain’t it? So’s you could argue to your heart’s content….)

        • IanCad

          Debate Danny, debate.

          • dannybhoy

            “You have heard the words, but what is the difference between an argument and a debate?

            An argument can be defined as an opinion that is supported with evidence. Debates are based upon arguments. A formal debate usually takes place in a formal setting with a team representing each side of the argument.
            Specific guidelines are followed, and the debate is usually judged. In order to debate an argument, you need to know both the pros and cons of the issue. In a debate, each team presents a different side of the argument. You must be able to defend your side and support your reasoning with evidence. In other words, saying that you don’t like broccoli because it doesn’t taste good would not provide any
            substance for a debate. However, providing reasons for why it’s better for a parent to stay at home with a child as opposed to both parents working outside the home is a
            debate that has been occurring for years.”
            I like arguing, but discussion comes a close second…

      • Anton

        Will some patriotic Tory MP in a secure constituency please cut a deal to resign if Daniel Hannan stands? He’d make a grand PM.

        • dannybhoy

          Nahhh. He’s just a good talker in a suit.

          • Anton

            Read his book?

          • dannybhoy

            No, I haven’t. My opinion is based on following his enews letter, his comments on various sites, and on YouTube.
            He comments – he doesn’t act or rock the boat. That’s why he and Cash and a few others are allowed to ‘dissent’ by their party. They’re house trained.
            Nigel took the European parliament on and asked the questions others only thought…

    • bluedog

      Well said, Anton. Boris is not without his flaws and contradictions, indeed there is an episode in his life which one can only deplore. However his conversion to the Brexit cause seems sincere, and he has a strong sense of history which enables him to position the EU within the pantheon of totalitarian empires that have been the bane of Europe since the Reformation. Boris also has the ability to be engaging and affable, attributes that can never be credited to Mrs May. In the final analysis, a Prime Minister must be a salesman for his party and its values in a way that enables him or her to win a general election and form a government. One simply doesn’t recognise that combination of qualities in Mrs May.

    • dannybhoy

      Theresa May is ‘elitist old school’ If we get her she will lead us back into the EUrodrome..
      Nigel Farage is the one man who has consistently stood up and acted on what he believes. He just needs to show that he can indeed be a team builder as well as a leader.
      It is a shame that people like Bill Cash and Daniel Hannan didn’t join forces with him -or were there genuine reasons that stopped that happening?

      • IanCad

        They had the old camel problem. Inside the tent or outside of it.

  • CliveM

    Isn’t it interesting, those who accuse the leavers of fostering hatred and division, use language that can only GE described as hateful and try to stigmatise and label as racists those who have disagreed.

    I don’t know if the can’t see the irony of this, or are simply hypocrites .

    • Sybaseguru

      I was shocked reading the guardian online comments on an article yesterday. The language and attitudes made the BNP look like angels. Seems liberals become extreme fascists when you don’t let them have their own way.

      • IanCad

        Don’t worry about them – no substance, no individuality, no strength.
        Have to use the old saw again:
        “The Rage of Dreaming Sheep.”

      • James60498 .

        At least the Guardian allows debates.

        The Oxford University Students Union had a debate on abortion cancelled.

        A debate. With speakers on both sides.

        Because they didn’t want someone able to take the pro-life position even though a counter position was going to be made too.

        Yes. When “liberals” don’t get their way, they show their true colours.

      • Anton

        Sarky put it superbly on this blog the other day: The liberals have suddenly realised they are not the consciousness of the people and they don’t like it.

        I remember having a moment of realisation even when I was secular that there was more hate among people who called themselves anti-racists than among the people they were pillorying, and that all hate is a bad thing.

  • B flat

    Your Grace’s posting is admirably sane, well argued, balanced and civilised. The angry remainers whose messages you quote, are obviously not. Perhaps they should leave?

  • There are undoubtedly some vile people out there who are abusing Asians, Muslims, Poles and Romanians

    Written by someone whose education and career have, I guess, not been overly affected by mass immigration. Those who have been badly affected, the white working class particularly, will inevitably see things from a different perspective. They have for decades been treated with contempt, howled down as racist if they so much as mentioned immigration, but the referendum has now shown that a majority shares their concern. It is no great surprise that some are now venting their frustration.

    Gilad Atzmon, the ex-Jew, writes:

    Immigration and multiculturalism (that is, the ideology designed to suppress expression of chauvinism) are integral to cultural Marxist ideology. Britain, like the rest of the West, has been subject to an invasive and brutal paradigm designed to vitiate the working class. Flooding Britain with immigration was a conscious political act pushed by the Jewish left and the Jewish lobby. This is explainable. Jews have good reason to be fearful of the working classes. Historically, it has been the working classes that turned against the Jews. Breaking society into fragmented and diverse segments is transparently a Jewish left interest. When a society is broken into a manifold of tribes and identities, the Jews become merely one tribe amongst many.

    And the cultural Marxists who have broken British society? The parties Peter Hitchens describes as being ‘in an alliance against’ their traditional supporters. Labour and the Conservatives.

    • Anton

      You’re a good English patriot and I side with you about that. But when you speak of the Jews you always speak of them as monolithic, although it’s not hard to find Jews on both sides of most issues. (Ever been in a bar in Israel?) Gilad Atzmon claims that having Jews on both sides is just tactical, but if you accept that claim then how can you call him an ex-Jew; how can you judge that he is not just being tactical himself and that “Once a Jew, always a Jew”?

      • dannybhoy

        Well said Anton.

    • dannybhoy

      “This is explainable. Jews have good reason to be fearful of the working
      classes. Historically, it has been the working classes that turned
      against the Jews.”
      Balderdash! Like any society the uneducated and non professional are under the influence of the established leadership. Oftentimes this was the Church, who told the devout,
      “The Jews killed Jesus.So go out and give them a good hiding, make a day of it and Jesus (the Jew) will be very pleased with you..”
      The Jews I know and have met are a mix of the extremely well educated, the professional, the devout and the tradesman..
      Also it was Hitler and his advisors who instigated Jew hatred (God forgive us), the ejection of Jews from their positions in German society, the smashing of windows,burning of books at Kristallnacht.

      • IanCad

        I’m not attempting to absolve Hitler of his monstrous crimes but he merely put into force the sentiments of a large part of the German ruling elite.

        “Jews and Mosquitoes were a nuisance that humanity must get rid of in some way or other”, he proclaimed, and added, again in his own hand: “I believe the best would be gas.”
        Kaiser Wilhelm 2nd 1919.
        Quoted from John Rohl “The Kaiser and his Court” Chapter 8

        • dannybhoy

          Exactly the ruling elite. We the little (and chunky)people have only two weapons. Withdrawal of labour and rioting. Once we’ve exhausted those it’s back under the yoke we go..
          One of the Jews differ from us is because they respect and value education and achievement.

        • Ivan M

          This was of the beginning of the stab-in-the-back theory which blamed the Jews as a monolith for Germany’s defeat. Wilhelm couldn’t take it that the Germans had been defeated. A similar example is that of Ludendorff who when it became apparent that Generals Foch, Haig and Pershing were going to destroy the German Army for good sent a stream of telegrams to Berlin begging for a ceasefire. Later on he and Hitler made a big play of the stab-in-the-back conspiracy to exonerate the Army. It was a blunder of historic proportions to let that Army live and fight another day.

          • Anton

            Ludendorff insisted in 1917 that the keep of the castle at Coucy in Picardy, the greatest castle in Western Europe, be blown up for no military reason whatsoever.

          • Ivan M

            Though he may have redeemed himself somewhat in his own mind by coming out against Hitler in the end. Too late.

      • @ dannybhoy—it was Hitler and his advisors who instigated Jew hatred

        It is counterproductive to consider historical events in isolation. From a review of Israel Shahak’s Jewish History, Jewish Religion:

        ‘Unlike his fellow Israelis, however, Professor Shahak is deeply troubled by this peculiar atmosphere. Whereas the Jews around him take it for granted that the goyim on whom they depend for economic, military, and diplomatic support are too stupid ever to figure out what the Jews think about them and say about them behind their backs and plan to do to them when they can, and too sheeplike ever to take effective action if they do figure it out, he worries. He remembers that the Romans figured it out, and they consequently sacked Jerusalem and ended [the Jews’] cult in Palestine. He remembers that the Germans figured it out, and that’s why he became an involuntary tenant in a concentration camp. He’s worried that if his fellow Jews continue behaving as they always have, they will get themselves into some really serious trouble—again.’

        • dannybhoy

          http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis.htm

          “Thus, Israel Shahak’s book “Jewish
          History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years” is all
          the more important for being a document by a knowledgeable Jew– a Jewish “insider” — about the beliefs and behavior of his fellow Jews. Born in Warsaw in 1933, Shahak spent a portion of his childhood in the concentration camp in Belsen,from which he immigrated to Palestine in 1945. He grew up in Israel, served in the Israeli military, and became a chemistry professor. Like all Israelis, he became fluent in Hebrew. He also became acclimated to the peculiar moral atmosphere of Israeli society: a combination of overweening arrogance and deceit, a mixture of pugnacious self-righteousness and duplicity.”

          His writings have to be balanced with other great and noble human beings like for instance, Elie Wiesel…

          “Elie Wiesel was born in 1928 in Sighet, Transylvania, which is now part of Romania. He was fifteen years old when he and his family were deported by the Nazis to Auschwitz. His mother and younger sister perished, his
          two older sisters survived. Elie and his father were later transported to Buchenwald, where his father died shortly before the camp was liberated in April 1945.

          After the war, Elie Wiesel studied in Paris and later became a journalist. During an interview with the distinguished French writer, Francois Mauriac, he was persuaded to write about his experiences in the death camps. The result was his internationally acclaimed memoir, ‘Night’ (La Nuit), which has since been translated into more than thirty
          languages.
          http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/eliewiesel.aspx

          You problem -and I mean this kindly- is that you are reading stuff that validates your preconceptions. I never experienced this arrogance or deceit Shahak speaks of.
          Pugnacity yes.
          In terms of human nature and behaviour the Jews are no different to any other people -as the Scriptures reveal. But I would say that there are at least as many kind hearted, moral and devout Jews as in any other grouping. And certainly, if you visit Israel and spend time there you will enjoy plenty of debates and arguments and kindness.

      • A valiant effort, Danny, but futile. You’re putting your head into a buzz-saw in attempting to counter components of this sort of logic. Johnny and others begin with the premise that Jews, as a class are evil. This is not ordinary, relative situational evil, but an over-reaching, all-inclusive racial-cultural-spiritual kind. It’s a religion in its own right…a repulsive and an evil one, at least for me.

        Starting with that premise, the theoreticians or the “theologians” Johnny sources out, gather, misinterpret or invent all sorts of disjointed factoids, myths and utterings from hither and yon and sew them together to make the premise look real and most importantly, prestigious and socially respectable. Hence you’ll find alusions to the past and present, from the Bible and the Talmud and all the way to Marx, Hollywood directors, pseudohistorians and cranks, lizzard people from Draco. Still, the founding premise is evil and the process both brillianrly bonkers and profoundly stupid because bad people with poor education, undeveloped analytical methodologies and no grasp of reality will invariably produce mere shit that’s not worth even a fraction of our allotted lifetime.

        • dannybhoy

          You’re right in one sense Avi, because these guys have become ‘hard wired’ and argument proof. I have met the same thing as a Christian with people of weird theological persuasions/revelations. (Especially in Israel I have to say -Jerusalem.(I believe there are all kinds of hospitalized folk who believe themselves to be something or somebody from Revelation…. ;0)
          The point is though that however tedious it becomes, we cannot stop standing up for the truth and opposing those who peddle half truths and poisons.
          You know Avi I have read a lot about the Holocaust, personal stories of survivors and their children, plus met them actually in Israel; in and out of kibbutz. We cannot be surprised when innocent unarmed people treat us goys with suspicion or even hostility. Why shouldn’t they? Sometimes they have lost all their familiy, or been forced to cooperate with their murderers in order to survive just a little longer, and perhaps end up loathing themselves for the rest of their lives..
          To defend the Jewish people and oppose those who oppose them is one of the things we who see and follow Jesus as Messiah must do. Salvation Avi, is of the Jews.
          Baruch haba b’shem Adonai.

        • IrishNeanderthal

          lizzard people from Draco

          They sound like a cross between lizards and Eddie Izzard, a comedian who went round British universities urging students to vote Remain. Not to mention a touch of Draco Malfoy.

    • Ivan M

      You are off on the deep end. While Jews since they have loud mouths are usually blamed for being advocates of mass migration, they are no more in this business than others according to their proportion. At that time it seemed like a good idea which is now being repudiated. But nobody had the idea that they should be going to London to screw the White working class. I make exceptions for the ISIS supporters among the recent migrants.

      • @ Ivan M—From page iv of the preface to The Culture of Critique:

        ‘In the case of the reversal in US immigration policy, there simply were no other pressure groups [than Jewish] that were pushing for liberalized, multi-racial immigration during the period under consideration (up to the enactment of the watershed immigration bill of 1965). Nor were there any other groups or intellectual movements besides the ones mentioned in [The Culture of Critique] that were developing images of the US as a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic society rather than a European civilization.’

        There is more on subsequent pages and in chapter 7.

        • Ivan M

          JR, it is the much cheaper transportation costs that enabled mass migration. As to non-White migration if you look to the Arab Americans for one, they were there before 1965. The US took the cream of Indian graduates. It was not seen as a favour to India. The story is much more complicated.

    • Ivan M

      The term cultural Marxist is damned unfortunate . Karl Marx always intended the working masses to have the knowledge to throw off their chains. He didn’t want to dumb them down as has happened in the UK.

      • Anton

        It’s just a hostile word for “socialist”. The difference between Marxism and socialism, at least for a century before Blair, was ij means rather than ends. Marx intended a bloody revolution, socialists aimed to get to the same utopia via the ballot box, universal plebiscite and the numerical preponderance of the working class. There is really no such thing as a “cultural Marxist”.

  • magnolia

    These insults are nonsense. His Grace has been a brave and persistent defender of democracy, freedom and the common people, and a scourge of totalitarianism, bureaucracy and oligarchy. If these people had a shred of discernment they would carry him shoulder high instead.

    Somehow the understanding of World War II has also slipped. Thinking about Schulz’s awful words about EU philosophy not being about giving the crowds a vote, it seems to me that while the understanding that WW2 was partly caused by rancid overblown nationalism has lasted, the understanding of the massive positive correlation between totalitarianism and violence has been diluted, and partly forgotten.

    A horrid and dangerous irony.

  • Today as I cycled my daughters to primary school I cheerily waved and wished a good morning to one of my neighbours who happens to be a fellow churchman. “F@!* You” was his reply. When I stopped my bicycle, turned around and asked what the problem was, he stood 6 inches away and spat into my face the words “Don’t ever talk to me again you racist, xenophobic bigot. The only reason you voted leave is because you hate foreigners. I’m holding you personally responsible for ruining our country and it’s economy. From now on we are not friends. Don’t ever talk to me again.”

    I bid him farewell, happy in the knowledge that I had cast my vote in the right direction. I presume this also means he won’t serve me coffee at church on Sunday. (By-the-way, this is isn’t inner city Bradford where I spent a good deal of recent years, but sleepy, rural Oxfordshire).

    • CliveM

      What a nice chap.

    • IanCad

      I like people who are upfront and out with it, as your neighbor seems to be. We need warrior types like him on our side.
      Keep working on him RS. Try serving him coffee next time.

      • dannybhoy

        Yeah, that’s the approach I’d use after nutting him (to prove I was everything he said I was) then I’d go home, allow conviction to set in, and ask the Lord’s forgiveness…

        • James60498 .

          I am with you Danny. But. Rather than risking prosecution, something like.

          ” Well. I have to say. I didn’t think you were all that bright. But wow I didn’t realise quite how bad it was. You even make your wife seem clever by comparison!”

          • dannybhoy

            Holy/righteous anger/indignation is often mentioned in Scripture.
            Unfortunately I can’t claim it as an excuse for my own personal actions!
            I would say however that there have been occasions in my Christian walk when I have shown anger and aggression, and found it rather effective in making a person or persons realise what they’re dealing with.
            Of course, one always has to make serious and heartfelt apologies afterwards, and it often put the relationship on a much better footing… ;0)

    • Martin

      RS

      Will he be at the Lord’s Table with you? It seems to me that you have offered peace to him.

    • dannybhoy

      “. From now on we are not friends. Don’t ever talk to me again.”
      And then you felt obliged to bless him with a ‘Glasgow Kiss…’
      What an ignorant, bigoted bonehead.

    • Dreadnaught

      Be glad he won’t be serving you coffee – remember Baldrick’s barista duties in the trenches in the last series Blackadder goes forth!

    • Uncle Brian

      Your ex-friend is sore because his side lost. As a retort, you might try the Loser sign (an L with thumb and forefinger). My grandson, age 11, assures me it can be remarkably effective.

    • bockerglory

      Oxfordshire – it wasn’t our soon to be gone PM Cameron? Anyhow, I hedged myself in dollars & US shares so am protected. I wonder why our media left wing luvvies who are so over educated didn’t do the same. Hedge hedge hedge. Not with gold as price too high at moment

  • IanCad

    May I humbly implore all the flock to click on HG’s link (twitter log on homepage) to Nigel Farage’s address to the EU.
    I have been critical of Farage in the past but without him there would have been a weaker independence movement with scant prospects of securing our liberty..
    He must have a leading role in the new administration – no idea how.

    • Anton

      Yes. Well said.

    • Anton

      Your Grace, please consider reproducing Farage’s speech as your next column here.

  • Martin

    One wonders how the ABC can host a pagan religious event.

    • sarky

      The same way he hosts Christmas I would think.

      • Martin

        Sarky

        I imagine the difference is too subtle for one of your religion.

      • Old Nick
        • sarky

          But the way it’s celebrated is!!

          • Old Nick

            You mean people enjoy it. Nothing unChristian about that.

          • Anton

            I think he means that people eat, drink and spend too much.

          • sarky

            The tree, mistletoe, Holly, ivy, the feast….all pagan (not to mention the date)

          • Old Nick

            The text of the Holly and the Ivy is quite explicitly Christian. There is no particular reason to think that there is any continuity whatever between the Druids’ use of mistletoe and its inclusion among the various greenery which was used to decorate houses (as that was all there was for decorating at that time of year). Indeed the folklorist Professor Hutton of the University of Bristol has argued very convincingly that most of these calendar customs date from the High Middle Ages and are the secular entertainments of England at the time when its civilisation was thoroughly permeated with Christian culture. The Tannenbaum is of course no older in this country than the Prince Consort, and in any case none of these items has anything to do with the origins of Christmas in the lands where it was first celebrated.
            Nor, contrary to popular opinion is there anything pagan about the date: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

          • All religions acquire foreign customs from the surrounding societies, adopt languages, arts, music, fashions, famile and government systems, etc, and change them, reinterpret them and attach a different and new traditions to them. This cultural process closely resembles the biological process of evolution, with branchings, adoption and adaptation, survivals and extinctions. People go along with it sometimes unconsciously, sometimes consciously, by design and practical reasons.

            I’m not troubled by the Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Christian, Muslim and secular Modern customs and even ideas that have been processed and adopted into Judaism since its inception…because these are externals whose previous meanings have evolved through time and cultures since the appearance of humans. And that’s obviously the way the Almighty makes it all work. Ditto for Christians, I guess.

        • Anton

          I believe that the gap between the two celebratory dates, December 25th and January 6th, was one that grew over the centuries because of differences between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, and did not reflect an early difference of opinion as the article suggests. I also believe that each grew from the solstice and that the discrepancy with the solstice today also reflects calendrical inaccuracy.

          The assertion that Christ was conceived at the same time of year he was crucified, Passover in the spring, “therefore” he was born in midwinter, is very likely an example of circular reasoning. The claim dates from the 4th century, but so does the earliest reference to a midwinter Christmas celebration, at roughly the time that Pope Julius I is said to have chosen that date. So the celebration could have come first, and the unknown writer of that assertion could have been reasoning backwards.

          The church completely lost the time of year of Christ’s birth; hence the speculation about it two centuries later by Clement of Alexandria and subsequent Christian writers. Any attempt to get to the date from Clement and from writers another two centuries after him are as reliable as unprovable speculation today is about the Napoleonic wars. That makes the syncretism theory, if not proven, at least highly plausible.

          The only documents we have to go on for the time of year are the gospels. Various ingenious arguments can be erected upon them (I have my own favourite) but these disagree with each other; and, above all, the absence of the sseason of the nativity from the gospel accounts means that it is of no importance to the Holy Spirit who spoke through Luke and Matthew. So all the hullabaloo at Christmas is, while not ANTIscriptural, certainly UNscriptural.

  • len

    ‘Political Correctness ‘has done its job so well that a large proportion of the population no longer understands what freedom and democracy is.

    • James60498 .

      Brave New World.

      • Owl

        James, I think the EU was more along the lines of “Animal Farm”.

        • James60498 .

          I don’t disagree with that at all. But I think the ultimate plan is BNW.

          I like your use of the past tense. Let’s hope we will all be using that soon.

  • Anton

    Some hilarious comments on the England football team’s parallel departure from Europe here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36648624/social-media-laughs-at-england-being-knocked-out-of-euro-2016-by-iceland

    Maybe we can unite in humour?

    • IanCad

      Thanks Anton. Along with Farage’s smile those pictures should serve to keep me mellow for the rest of the day.

      • Anton

        Maybe Cameron should run the football team now there’s a vacancy?

        • Uncle Brian

          And Roy Hodgson replace him as PM!

          • Anton

            Yes, the one who has form in arranging Brexits.

    • Pubcrawler

      To which I add this, which had me giggling last night. Sums up their second goal perfectly.

      http://9gag.com/gag/aOvmn6y/england-vs-iceland

      (Yes, I know penguins are from the southern hemisphere.)

  • Pubcrawler

    Now I’m not at all suggesting that Martin Schulz resembles Hitler in any way (he lacks the necessary charisma, for one thing), but the latest Downfall parody seems close to the mark

  • Busy Mum

    “Justin Welby was busy loving his neighbour by hosting the inaugural Lambeth Palace Iftar – the fast-breaking meal during Ramadan – with London’s first Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan and Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis”

    I fail to see how this can be interpreted as Welby loving his neighbours. Both Welby and Mirvis are the compromisers here, submitting to the conqueror who bears no love to either of them.

    • Anton

      The question is: was wine served to those who wanted it? If I accept a Muslim’s hospitality then I expect alcohol won’t be on the table; but there is no reason not to offer it at a Christian table and simply let those who don’t want it decline it.

      • The Explorer

        I find it strange that there will be rivers of wine in the Islamic Paradise.

        • dannybhoy

          Made from 72 raisins.

          • Anton

            Vous avez raisin!

          • The Explorer

            Quite. Wine and bunches of grapes go very well together as a theme. Since those heroes entering Paradise will be with their wives, a grape rather than a virgin is probably what was meant by ‘white eyed’.

          • dannybhoy

            I suspect it’s actually virgins..(houris).
            Feast your eyes on this
            “What awaits women in Paradise”
            ‘Women will form the majority of the dwellers of Hell as proved by above mentioned Hadeeths, and they will also form the majority of the inhabitants of Paradise and outnumber men when they are added to the Hoor (ladies of Paradise).’

            http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/158781/
            (be sure to show it to your wife, but not is she is near any heavy utensils or bottles…)

      • dannybhoy

        If you don’t know how Islam views Christianity and Judaism you haven’t been following the news.

      • Busy Mum

        Oh, I agree…but the real question is whether or not a Ramadan break-fast table can truly be described as Christian, whatever claims the host may make.

        • Anton

          Iftar is the evening meal during Ramadan, but I take your point that a Christian table appears to have been set up for an Islamic purpose. For the Archbishop of Canterbury to invite the Muslim Mayor of London to a meal that is deliberately timed after sunset during Ramadan is a good thing, but if Justin called it an Iftar then that isn’t. How can it be an iftar for him and the Chief Rabbi, for a start?

          • Busy Mum

            I deliberately hyphenated the word break-fast; unfortunately, that landed exactly at the end of the line once it was posted!

            And for what purpose did the AofC invite the Muslim? Was he brave enough to expound the gospel and warn Khan that unless he recognises Jesus as the Messiah, he is out of the secret of eternal life? Or did Welby agree to demote Jesus in order to avoid offence?

          • dannybhoy

            A good question. He may not even have ventured the idea that all faiths lead to God, because a devout Muslim doesn’t accept that either. Hence head chopping.

          • Busy Mum

            …and Welby’s head is still firmly on his shoulders in the photo, so that is the proof we need that he did indeed fail his Lord and Master.

          • dannybhoy

            Naughty.

    • It was going a bit too far I thought.

  • chiefofsinners

    The rise in racism is largely anecdotal. The only measure is a police funded online reporting service, which has had 85 reports compared to 54 last month.
    Spikes are often seen after obvious triggers such as terrorist attacks or elections.
    31 extra incidents compared to 17 million Leave voters helps put this in context.

    • Pubcrawler

      “helps put this in context.”

      Only to those with a sense of proportion and a modicum of statistical literacy. So we can discount most journalists (on both counts).

    • dannybhoy

      It was due frayed nerves by footie fans anxious about England’s perfomance…

    • Not forgetting that many “hate crimes” are entirely fictitious hoaxes perpetrated by the ‘victims’ on themselves, in order to generate sympathy and to slur their ‘enemies’. The safest cause of action is to presume any reports of ‘hate crimes’ are false unless proven otherwise.

      • James60498 .

        In view of the hoax names included on that petition, hoaxes are not beyond the remainers. (Not that we needed that petition to know that).

        Anyone heard anything about that petition in the last 24 hours? Seems to have gone a bit quiet since it reached 17 billion.

    • Dreadnaught

      The tabloid media will make the most of any ignorant petty remark, by very ignorant petty moron, but ignore 55 million people who don’t.

  • David

    I have a very good friend in Norway, who like me was deeply involved in their EU referendum. As here the political elite wanted IN but the people, wanted Stay Out. The MS media, the banks, big business and most sections of the Norwegian establishment fought hard, and dirty, for IN. They lost. The people won. Norway went on to to become the prosperous and lovely nation that it is.
    After the referendum there was a terrible atmosphere which split families and communities of all types and purposes. Sometimes people did not speak again for years……
    There are lessons to be learnt from Norway.
    Although most Leavers I know are avoiding triumphalism, there may be some that are not so restrained, I simply don’t know. But I have seen many vile comments from pugnacious Remainers….

  • saintmark

    And, of course, if we’d have voted Remain all those vile, racist, low-life’s would have simply disappeared, no? Or would the stories be exactly the same?

  • preacher

    For generations, Britain has been a mixture of races, Brtons, Celts, Vikings from at least three different countries, Romans, Saxons, Normans etcetera – the list is endless. How can any Brit really be both honest & racist ? The thing that makes us different from our European cousins is this – The people that put the Great in Great Britain were those resolute bold souls that dared to venture forth from the safety of their original homes, to settle & build a new society in this country, working together, often fighting for what they believed in. Defending their homes & families from those who would invade either by force or politic.
    The weak ones went home, the adventurous founded the Americas & an Empire.
    The British people are a mixture of nationalities, blended together to produce a tough, resilient race that prospers in diversity & stands up for it’s freedom & justice. We are different thank God, that is why we dared to vote Out !.
    Those with the skills we need to prosper in industry, society, the health service or any other form of work are welcome. Those that are already here & trading with the ambition to succeed & be prosperous we welcome with open arms, in the knowledge that they have what it takes to stand with us to make this country Great again that is a new national political reformation.

    • David

      A good, short summary there.

      • preacher

        thanks David, short & sweet I hope ?

        • David

          Yes indeed.

  • chiefofsinners

    Hate crime in the European Parliament:
    Jean-Claude Junket says to Nigel Farage “The British people voted in favour of the exit. Why are you ‘ere?” (cue Pavlovian applause).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36648664

    British go home!

    • Anton

      Too bad Farage didn’t reply, “Gloating!”

      • dannybhoy

        If he were heading up the Brexit negotiations it would be good – not.
        The European Parliament regards him as a real thorn in the side..
        Vintage Farage..

        Truly, the man at least deserves a peerage, a Knight of the Realm etc.
        The ONLY man to speak up for British people in the face of opposition from The British Establishment.

        • Anton

          Wasted in the House of Lords. He’s got work to do.

    • dannybhoy

      …and take your football with you!

    • Ivan M

      Farage should just keep on irritating that little man.

      • Dreadnaught

        Seeing as how Nigel won’t be in the deal making process he didn’t do us any favours sticking two fingers up at his detractors. I like him but how much more British if he had shown a little magnanimity in his departure. Not very statesman like for my liking and that is what is needed now.

        • Anton

          Danny is right, he was for years the only man to speak up for British people in the face of opposition from The British Establishment.

        • Ivan M

          He is as much a European as the rest. Being European is not something bestowed from above in Brussels, and at any given moment, in all the countries of Europe there are more who like him than the others. Juncker is from a country so insignificant that Churchill did not even mention it when writing about the ‘neutrals’ in WWII.

          It is all becoming clear now, the Europeans need the UK to prevent themselves from falling apart. You don’t see any of the smaller countries ‘gloating’ over the possible departure of the UK.

        • Nah, just the right response to the stupid, disgraceful treatment he’s been getting by the fightened trough-piggies. Learn’em some manners.

  • Pubcrawler

    Speaking (as we were, briefly) of a sense of perspective…

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmCwvFTWYAAbgZU.jpg:large

  • Inspector General

    They can’t go public in our sophisticate society, not normally, so it comes as surprise to many that we live alongside the most disgraceful of people. We always have and always will.

    Every so often a slight gap opens. So what is completely unacceptable is for a short time, almost passable – to them, that is. Hence, the true racist can indeed make their unpleasantries to others in real life situations. Only for a short time, though. And then it goes back to being unacceptable again.

    It’s rather unfortunate that this social convention doesn’t apply to the anonymous social media users who would never point the finger at a person in the flesh, but have no such restraints on their unpleasant character on line.

    Still, we can only imagine what the most devoted of Remainers must being going through in their grief. Let them vomit the poison bile within them to lessen their agony. Let’s just hope we don’t get too wet as they do it…

  • Inspector General

    Ain’t the last few days been grand!

    Now, you can fit the number of Labour MPs loyal to their Bolshevik commander in a medium sized coach. And look, there is the might of the Lib Dems, trying to keep up in their minibus…

    • dannybhoy

      Ain’t?
      Ain’t!
      Not the kind of word I expect from a cultured and cultivated man like your self Inspector..
      What the last few days have shown is that our political rulers have done a grand job of keeping us taxpayers quiet whilst selling us down the rivers Seine and Rhine..
      The country is divided, the established order has been mortally wounded and is lashing out.
      It’s all to be expected. This is the Time of the Wobble. But things will settle down again, us pensioners will get by our young people will adjust and rise to the challenge as young people love to do. We will rediscover our sense of Britishness, we will find new markets and build new relationships as a sovereign nation. All those who came from abroad and love this country will remain British, and racism will not be tolerated – from whatever quarter it comes..

      • Inspector General

        Ain’t you particular, what!

        But you too Danny! We are indeed, ALIVE!

        • dannybhoy

          You are so right IG. We need to refocus on the opportunities that lie before us. A rejuvenated Commonwealth of equal partners, a stronger Union, a stronger military and Navy, a bigger and better Merchant Navy…
          The re-institution of Guy Fawkes, the complete teaching of English/British history, and the overthrow of political correctness and human rights…

          • Inspector General

            That’s the ticket – who would object!

          • dannybhoy

            You know the high point of British achievement was the Victorian era. Building, inventing, social progress (thanks mainly to Evangelical Christianity). Those Victorians were positive, as the Americans have been.
            We have to break away from this deadening negativity, and rediscover our mojo!

          • Inspector General

            The Inspector, sir, was there at the time!

          • dannybhoy

            :0)

          • Pubcrawler

            “Yes we can!” 🙂

          • dannybhoy

            Yes Obama, we Brits can; and we aren’t impressed by an unpopular President who doesn’t even respect his own US Constitution(!) telling us we’ll be at the back of the ‘line’ when it comes to trade and special relationships either.
            We don’t aspire to empire building again, but we still have a lot to offer the world and we don’t need the EU or you to speak for us or tell us what we should be doing.
            (This is reading like something out of the Lord of the Rings..)

          • bluedog

            ‘… telling us we’ll be at the back of the ‘line’ when it comes to trade.’ Fail.

            Obummer said ‘Queue’, because Cameron wrote his speech and got the local lingo right.

          • dannybhoy

            Exactissimo!
            He would normally have said ‘line’ but he thought ‘queue’ would make it more palatable. He has no great care for this nation anyway..

      • Dreadnaught

        Bravo Dan.

        • dannybhoy

          Thanks Dreaders.

    • Martin

      IG

      Coach?

      • Anton

        Football coach?

        • Inspector General

          A motor-coach, dear fellow. A covered charabanc, if you will…

      • A bus, as most of the non-Edwardian English speaking world, which the IG has been too busy to correct, sloppily calls it.

        • Martin

          Avi

          I’d suggest a family car might be sufficient.

          • Remarkable! Discus notified me of your post just now. Maybe MI6 held on to thenotification while trying to figure out whether we are speaking in code or just being weird?

          • Martin

            Avi

            Clearly we are persons of interest. Here is the password for our secure communication channel: EUX2QjNcO08GLe8lkMM4A3Ng7pjet6J3knH

  • Anton

    The Daily Express is reporting a leak in Poland that France and Germany are today telling Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia that, now Britain is leaving, they intend to proceed to full political union – or else.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit

    We shall soon know whether this claim is true.

    • Dreadnaught

      We have know this all along but it has been kept in the shade until now.

    • dannybhoy

      Nigel had quite a lot of supporting claps during his speech. I expect others will be rethinking their position in the EU. Whatever the temporary fears, our country is NOT going to fail.

    • bluedog

      The French will revolt. The Italians will leave the EU. The Visegrad nations you mention will reform the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, including western Ukraine, backed by the US.

      • Eustace

        The French are saddened but amused by this British drama.

        There’s no chance of a referendum in France no matter how loud a drum Marine Le Pen bangs. The mood isn’t one of contestation. It’s one of learning from the mistakes of our neighbour.

        Parfois les cons sont utiles. Ils mettent en valeur.

        Europe has never looked so attractive. Across the political spectrum, with the exception of a fat blonde butcher’s wife and her coterie of racists, xenophobes and Cro Magnon cave dwellers, the French are united in defence of the EU. And united in agreeing that if the English want out, let them go. It’s all or nothing and you’ve chosen nothing, so nothing is what you’ll get.

        • Anton

          And nothing is exactly what we want of continental politics. I don’t doubt that the French are united about the British leaving, for the Frexiteers see it as a boost to their cause and the Fremainers say good riddance. But the Frexiteers and the Fremainers are not united about France’s future, are they? Although you pose as a spokesman for the French here, you actually speak only for one faction. France rejected the Giscard-penned EU constitution in a referendum a few years ago, and Marine le Pen gets more support every time there’s an election. You would do well to get used to it.

          • Eustace

            Frexiters and Fremainers?

            You really do live in a parallel universe, don’t you?

            So go on then, if such things exist, what are the French terms for them?

            France is united on the question of Europe apart from one party equivalent to Ukip in terms of their chances of forming a government. The FN has only 2 députés in the National Assembly, which I suppose is one more than Ukip has in the soon-to-be-defunct British Parliament, but their ability to win any more is severely hampered by the wide geographical spread of their vote. Just like Ukip, they can’t muster enough impetus to win majorities in more than a couple of deeply right-wing electorates. And even then, it isn’t the hope of seeing the FN form a government that gets them elected there. It’s about personalities, local loyalties and local issues.

            All other parties, apart from one radical communist grouping that gets about 1-2% of the vote, are in favour of Europe. So is the VAST majority of the electorate.

            British-style Euroskepticism just doesn’t exist in France at anywhere near the same levels for “Frexit” to be a serious possibility. The French complain about Europe, but in the same way you might complain about your family. Yes, it can be difficult dealing with some family members, but they’re still your family. Divorce is not a possibility.

            So you go ahead and try to light the flame of a “Frexit”. You’ll simply be laughed at like the English clown you are.

          • Anton

            How then do you explain that Jean-Marie le Pen was in a 1:1 vote-off for President against the establishment candidate? Or that the French people rejected the EU constitution in a referendum?

            What you are saying about Marine le Pen (who is not her dubious father) is exactly what many people said about Farage a few years ago. But as Farage said in the European Parliament earlier this week about the establishment, they’re Not Laughing Now.

            You know what? I’m more patriotic on France’s behalf than you are. And I’m English!

          • Eustace

            Jean-Marie Le Pen came second in the 2002 presidential election by sheer good luck.

            The Socialist Party, which usually fields one candidate who garners a large majority of left wing votes, had the misfortune to be riven by ideological splits at that time. They couldn’t agree on one candidature, so several Socialists ended up standing and the left-wing vote was split, which meant that no one Socialist managed to get enough votes to top Le Pen’s score.

            If you add up the votes of all Socialist candidates in that election, had they been cast for one candidate, he would easily have arrived in pole position and would probably have won the second round run-off with Chirac.

            In the event however, Le Pen scraped through to the second round and was then annihilated by Chirac, who garnered 82% of the vote. An historic majority and one that focused a lot of attention on the small size of the FN’s base of support, which at the time was under 20% of the population. Both right and left united against Le Pen. He was never going to win.

            Something similar might have happened again next time. Both the right and the left are heavily split with no clear consensus over who the presidential candidates should be. If several candidates were to stand, the vote would be split again and Marine Le Pen, who has increased the FN base to about 25%, would get through to the second round. And then she’d be annihilated as everyone united against her to vote for the other candidate.

            In order to stop this however, both the Republicans and the Socialists have introduced the idea of primary elections to make sure that one candidate only is fielded. This makes it less likely that Le Pen will get through to the second round. The Socialists under Hollande are so unpopular however that she still may manage it however, because if they’re crazy enough to field Hollande or Valls as their candidate, voters will desert them in droves. But if they’re smart and select someone popular and credible, Le Pen will be wiped out in the first round.

            Either way, she won’t be our next president. Nor will she ever be. Marine Le Pen can’t garner a national majority. And she knows it. All the talk is just bluster, which you’d expect from someone who looks and sounds like a charcutière manning a stall in a dodgy market and trying to sell her dubious sausages to an even more dubious public.

          • Anton

            If you have to judge politicians by their looks then you are somewhat short of genuine arguments.

            The point anyway is not Marine le Pen but what she stands for. France is somewhat behind Britain in being tired of the EU, and it is understandable that a chap like you will not recognise what is coming at this early stage. But the stresses in the EU system will tell soon enough, and the French are rather less restrained than the British at resorting to the streets.

          • Eustace

            Marine Le Pen’s looks are part of her appeal – or lack of it – as a candidate. She’s a sideshow. A fairground attraction. And she plays up to it, because she knows it attracts a certain kind of working class voter who has neither the brains nor the concentration span to focus on anything else.

            The majority won’t vote against her because of her looks, however. They’ll vote against her because she’s a fascist and a populist who wants, like Farage, to break Europe apart for her own personal advantage. The French do not want this. But please, if you’re holding your breath waiting for us to change, don’t let me disabuse you of the notion. Keep it up! Turn purple! Pass out! That’ll be one less Muppet of a Brexiter the English have to deal with when the time comes to bring England back into the EU.

          • Anton

            It is absurd to say that Farage wished to break Europe apart for his own personal advantage. Europe will still be there and still be a wonderful continent; it is the EU that will be gone. Second, Farage began his journey at a time when breaking the EU apart was about the worst way to gain personal advantage anybody could think of. You haven’t been short on pouring scorn on his prospects, have you? Now he’s won you say it was all for personal gain. There is no logical consistency in your argument; the only common strand between your words before and after the recent vote is dislike of Farage. Dislike him all you like; it will make no difference.

          • Eustace

            What has Farage won? A referendum, that’s all. He’s not in government, nor is he likely to be. He can’t even get himself elected as an MP.

            He’s a one trick pony, or rather a one trick horseman of the apocalyspe, who now that he’s dropped his bomb, will fade back into obscurity leaving others to clear up the mess he created.

            His name is already a byword for gurning populism and xenophobia and that is how he’ll be remembered. Ukip no longer has a reason to exist. Let’s hope it fades away quickly. Quietly would be too much to expect.

          • Anton

            That’s what his name is a byword for among the losers.

        • bluedog

          ‘It’s one of learning from the mistakes of our neighbour.,’ being les rosbifs.

          Now Linus, that was too quick. One minute you’re ashamed of being British, because the British voted to leave the EU last Thursday. Then with your British nationality scarcely cold in the grave, you pop up on Tuesday writing from a French perspective!

          Transnational, transgender (?) the sophistication is dazzling.

          One suspects that outside the narrow BCBG world of the Seizieme, French opinion may be slightly different. Let’s wait until 2017 to see what the French really think. You may be surprised.

          • Eustace

            And you may be disappointed. France is not leaving the EU. Marine Le Pen will never hold high office, although her persistent efforts to hoodwink the poverty stricken electors of Hénin-Beaumont may conceivably land her a seat in the Assemblée Nationale one day.

            Once there, she’ll be able to join whichever of her two FN colleagues survives the next election, so at least she’ll have someone to have lunch with in the canteen. I hope for her sake it isn’t her niece, who can’t stand to be in the same room as her aunt. A feeling which is perfectly mutual, it appears. They’re a reptilian family, these Le Pens. They kill off competition within the kin group without compunction.

            None of that will bring them to power however. That’s what the British just don’t understand. You can’t take a uniquely British situation and make it fit the very different political landscape of France.

          • bluedog

            It is always attractive, but superficial, to look at politics through the prism of personality, for some of us at least. Let’s set aside your antipathy to Le Pen the personality and look at electoral attitudes. There are trends in French opinion that will form the basis of the mandate won by whoever becomes president of the French republic next year, and here they are:

            http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/13/europeans-face-the-world-divided/

            See the paragraph headed ‘The German-French Divide’ and note that only 38% of the French have a positive attitude to the EU. This finding flashes like a cheap neon sign, and any politician seeking power is going to exploit it while claiming more lofty motives, of course. Le Pen will naturally hammer this point and do her best to reinforce French insecurities, that is her metier. But what if Sarko does it too, and better than Le Pen? He may succeed in wedging himself into a corner from which Frexit follows as part of a grand bargain with the French electorate.

          • Eustace

            The nature of French disenchantment with Europe is nothing like as deep-rooted as the hatred of it felt by elderly and/or working class Englishmen.

            We don’t want to destroy it. We want to improve it.

            By all means try to interpret the French political landscape through the thick and distorting lens of English prejudice. You’ll find however that your dire predictions come to nothing.

            As an example, this lazy assumption that Sarkozy will be the Republican candidate. Nothing is less certain. There are several Republican candidates in the primaries who are more popular than Sarkozy. His chances of winning the nomination look weaker every day.

            But in the vague yet retentive English brain, the words “Sarko”, “France” and “president” are inextricably linked. A bit like “EU” and “corrupt”. It doesn’t matter if they bear any relation to the reality of a situation. That doesn’t interest you. Facts are only relevant if they support the story you’ve decided is the truth.

            Must be why so many Christians are such fervent Brexiters. Good luck trying to shape the world to your desires. Glad I won’t be going down the plughole with you.

    • DanJ0

      I had my Polish workmate translate the tvp.info page for me to verify this. His take of the tone is that the strategy document was written by someone left on his own in a room for too long. They don’t seem to be taking it that seriously in Poland.

      More interesting is the draft motion published by the European Parliament last Friday. Read it carefully and see what you think. Compare it with what Juncker has been saying in the last day or two.

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fTEXT%2bMOTION%2bB8-2016-0838%2b0%2bDOC%2bXML%2bV0%2f%2fEN&language=EN

      • Anton

        Here is the Polish thing in English (lower down the webpage):

        http://www.tvp.info/25939587/europejskie-superpanstwo-zobacz-oryginalny-dokument

        EUspeak takes some decoding but it does seem to demand identical laws, fiscal union and an EU army and border force that can do what it likes in member states.

        • DanJ0

          It does. As my Polish mate says though, they’ll never get that past Poland let alone others. However! The draft motion does seem to be calling for “more Europe” in 10, 11, and 12 as the response to Brexit.

          • Inspector General

            Hey, DanJ0, get your Polish friend to translate this…

            I’M FREE- I’m free,
            And freedom tastes of reality,
            I’m free-I’m free,
            AN’ I’m waiting for you to follow me.

            If I told you what it takes
            to reach the highest high,
            You’d laugh and say ‘nothing’s that simple’
            But you’ve been told many times before
            Messiahs pointed to the door
            And no one had the guts to leave the temple!

          • Anton

            Who?

          • Pubcrawler

            On first base, I’m told.

          • dannybhoy

            Very good PB!
            Abbott and Costello..

          • Pubcrawler

            Classic!

          • Who.

          • Anton

            Sounds like we’re playing trains again!

          • You triggering my trauma.

          • Ah, Daltrey in Tommy! Best musical evah…

          • Anton

            The orchestral version of I’m Free and the Elton version of Pinball Wizard stank next to the original, but Tina Turner rocked.

          • Tina was superb with Gipsy Queen, but I liked Elton’s Pinball Wizzard film version more…especially with his giant plaform boots amd elephant pants! Once upon I knew every single lyric (not one word spoken) in that musical.

          • Anton

            The power chords in The Who’s Pinball Wizard were definitive… but I’ve always been something of a contrarian regarding The Who, seeing them as an utterly brilliant singles band and their rock operas as overblown – although Quadrophenia made a fine film.

          • O, you purist! Of course, but the film version was designed to hit different “chords;” it featured Elton, his keyboarding and vocals, not to mention his presence as a performer, which was at its peak then.

          • Anton

            Actually I thought Elton had a short (if superb) peak, but was definitely over it by then.

          • Yellow Brick Road, no doubt. Not sure why Captain Fantastic didn’t have a similar impact…some very good and different compositions there. By then I was a Tull-head, worshipped Genesis (until Gabriel and then Hackett left, leaving Phil to croon) like a pagan savage and tried to become another Santana until the impossibility of that led me to American folk.

          • Anton

            We’re different… I never got on with Genesis, who were only one step short of my pet hate, Yes; yet I loved Focus. Santana were great, but Deep Purple (Mk II) were my faves.

          • Pubcrawler

            Ditto, in every detail.

            That may surprise you rather less than it surprises me 🙂

          • Anton

            Time for another beer when I’m next in Cambs!

          • Pubcrawler

            Oh go on, twist my arm 🙂

          • Anton

            Marine Le Pen, ou est tu?

  • Inspector General

    Re-establishing trade links with our Commonwealth is must. Well, step lively you MPs, and bloody well get down to it. You are our servants, are you not!

    We can only apologise to our own for our previous generations entertaining of the quisling Heath. But they can be reassured we are under new management, as they say.

    We could even dig Heath up and put him on trial, you know. We did that for Cromwell.

    Nothing is beyond us now!

    • Anton

      Given that he was cremated, that really would be an achievement.

      • Inspector General

        No – his corpse really was put on trial. A bit extreme, and one is sure that kind of thing is only reserved now for people who opposed LGBT ‘rights’ (read ‘privileges’) during their lifetime…

        • Anton

          I meant Heath.

          • Inspector General

            In that case, we’ll just smash the EU then. Sten Guns for the resistance anybody…

          • preacher

            We’ve already lit the fuse, just put your fingers in your ears & wait for the bang. The new tower of Babel is ready to Bubble.

          • Inspector General

            Napoleon, Marxism, Fascism, Hitler, EU

            Nothing of any good comes from the continent…

          • dannybhoy

            I can’t go that far IG. I would say that if the countries of the immediate EU and us had been allowed to ‘organically’ grow together, whilst each retained its own sovereignty (and hence spokesmen/women,) this thing could have worked..
            As it is we were deceived and misled and now we are on a new course to regain our sovereignty whilst remaining friendly with Europeans of good will.

          • Inspector General

            Looks like you are going that far, Danny…

          • Anton

            Nothing good political, anyway. I toasted the Referendum result in French champagne while listening to Mozart.

          • Inspector General

            The Inspector is a Chopin man…

          • dannybhoy

            You meant Heath?

          • Anton

            Yes of course. I have long known that they’d dug Cromwell up, and I verified with Wikipedia that Heath had been cremated, before posting.

          • Pubcrawler

            The Blasted Heath, no less.

          • chiefofsinners

            Where the place?

          • Anton

            Salisbury Plain, plainly.

          • chiefofsinners

            There is a Cromwell Road in the Heath area of Cardiff.

          • Hampstead Heath?

          • chiefofsinners

            A toast… your very good heath.

          • Anton

            Not even Ted Heath the band leader, nor Edwin Heath the hypnotist.

          • dannybhoy

            Heath Robinson perhaps?

        • Pubcrawler

          Anton meant Heath.

  • If we don’t step on it with a new Brexit supporting replacement for Cameron and Osborne accompanied by a strong cabinet to put their foot down, the poison dwarf will have torn us apart.

    • preacher

      No rush Marie, we just have to stand strong & watch our backs. We are in control, or should I say the Lord is ? it’s rather like watching a fireworks display, watch & enjoy. Then we must start a spring clean to get rid of the leaven of the past & select new good people to represent us in a general election, maybe the whole face of politics in this country will change.
      Blessings. P.

      • Inspector General

        The Lord isn’t in control, padre. But the Almighty is sitting up and attentive right now…

        • preacher

          Well inspector I believe that He marches well ahead of us & plans for future events that will happen in accordance with His will throughout the World. It’s mankind that is slow to act & He often has to wait for us to respond before He makes known His presence.
          Sleep well my friend.

  • preacher

    It just goes to show what a small group of people living on a small island can do when they stand up for their rights. Cameron has resigned, Corbyn is drowning in a sea of dispute. The labour party are in turmoil & civil strife, the Conservative party has to find a replacement P.M & the E.U parliament is in a state of panic & bitterness as the fire ship sails calmly into their midst with captain Farage beating Drakes drum to ‘Drum ’em up the channel as we drummed ’em long ago’ – well done who would have thought it possible a week ago ? Truly a week IS a long time in politics !.

  • Erik Dahlberg

    At what point did supranational political union become unquestionably desirable to so many? When those of the remain camp tell me that they have a dislike for nation states, they fail to comprehend that the EU is also a nation state (of the Imperial type but a nation state nonetheless). Why the hostility towards nationhood? If nation states are the cause of war, (which I disagree with) European stability is king and the economy is his queen, why on earth were we doing voting to not surrender in 1940? The economy sure took a hit and Europe was seriously destabilised by D-Day; El Alamein was also dreadfully expensive. Since when did war become the root of all evil? Avoiding war at all costs, dare I say it, has served few peoples well. Not that anyone good wants war (I hope) but European stability being an overriding factor in a vote to remain surely takes the view that there is nothing worse than war?

    • Inspector General

      My dear fellow, you are safe. You see, the UK has the Hydrogen Bomb and submarines to launch it. There will be no further war between nations, at least in Europe, for whichever state starts it must first consider what its like to have their capital city in ruins…

      • Erik Dahlberg

        Oh I know the effectiveness of MAD and believe that you’re quite right. I meant to comment on the widespread fear of war and loss of stability. These people that fear war more than they value their sovereignty demonstrate their belief that anything is a lesser evil when faced with the alternative of bloodshed. This is a dark spirit indeed.

        • Inspector General

          Those that advocate membership of the EU will tell you that the EU keeps us safe from war. They are liars. NATO does. If you want to champion the EU, do so. But leave out the issue of war. Otherwise we’ll consider you a mischievous weasel…

          • Erik Dahlberg

            I’m not championing them though. I don’t believe they stop war at all. I’m merely speaking of those that say that they do. Apologies if I wasn’t clear.

          • Inspector General

            You are clear now. A very good night to you sir.

          • Erik Dahlberg

            And you, it is good to sleep in London and know that my government will soon sleep in the same country.

      • Anton

        What if Mutual Assured Destruction meets the suicide bomber mentality?

        • carl jacobs

          MAD is an obsolete doctrine. Flexible Response.

          • Anton

            Not either/or. If the Soviets had invaded Western Europe during the Cold War then NATO would have begun by trying to hold the line, and if that failed (which it would) then conventional attacks on the flanks of the Soviet breakout, then if that failed tactical nukes, then if that failed strategic. All of which the Soviets knew.

          • dannybhoy

            In some parts of the world they might not care. It’s the doctrine of securing one’s place in the afterlife..

      • Manfarang

        The Yanks have the launching keys.

        • David Harkness

          In what way do the ‘Yanks have the launching keys’?

          • bluedog

            The UK’s Trident-based nuclear deterrent cannot be launched without US approval.

          • Anton

            Can you provide an authoritative reference for that, please? I’ve often wondered.

          • bluedog

            Regrettably not, or at least not easily. It’s a story which has yet to be denied, which is unfortunate because you know that once denied it is true. However the idea is sound in that the weapons system is of exclusively US origin. There are always limits to US technology transfers, even to close allies, as it seems they like to keep a technological edge to themselves. Given this habit of not releasing full technology, it would be consistent for the US to keep the Brits on a leash with Trident. If true, it means that the British nuclear deterrent is in effect a squadron of the USN and seen from a US perspective serves to spread risk. After all, if the US holds the security keys to the weapon system it would not be a complete surprise to learn that they can also dictate targeting in certain situations.

            Carl would know, suggest you ask him.

          • Anton

            I’m left wondering why you said it if you’re not sure, but I just want to know.

          • bluedog

            It’s been something one has understood as being fact for sometime. The attached link from wiki on British nuclear weapons research gives details of US non-cooperation in the development of nuclear weapons. This highlights my comment above on the US practice of limited disclosure of critical technology, even to very close allies. The closest you can get to evidence is following the logical path of that precedent to the Trident weapon system. So yes, it’s an educated guess and should have been described as such. Apologies.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_Kingdom

          • Anton

            Googling reveals that the missiles themselves are US-maintained, so that any withdrawal of US cooperation would lead to problems within a few months, but as to whether the UK can choose its targets and can launch at them unilaterally – there is disagreement online. It’s a simple and very fundamental Yes/No question; can anybody answer it authoritatively here?

          • David Harkness

            That is de facto fallacy, it may be true that using the deterrent would be highly unlikely without US approval, but ultimately the decision to use or not use depends on HMG.

  • Pubcrawler
    • Charming kids. Next step is for someone to get them some blue uniform shirts with yellow stars on them and shiny, steel-toed boots and teach the ragamuffins how to shout and march in unison to really make the pavements vibrate. Yeah. Et tad futurum.

  • You boys and girls still here? What do you do for electricity? Does everyone have a wheelbarrow to roll out the stack of pounds through the race riots and the flash-pogroms when going out for a tin of Spam for the family? Are the tanks in the streets careful with the pretty planters and the streetlights? O, to be safe and sound in Caracas or Istanbul!

    And horror of horrors, look at what you selfish bigots have done to us innocents: our Canadian dollar plummeted off the precipice…by 1 cent yesterday!!!! Yes I know, they don’t mint pennies anymore because they’re worthless, but it’s the idea that counts.

    Busy day, but had a chance to peek at the freakout in the leftish MSM here which all but says that everyone in your neck of the woods has second thoughts, “hang-over” is the word of the day, and that millions are signing a petition for another referendum. Well, the remorseful millions turn out to be a few kvetches who voted Remain anyway, and the petition seems to be getting a bit of a leg up from some clever apps running out of off-shore servers, but its the memes that count.

    Anyhow, after that brief freakout, the journos and financial fellows are cheering up as the FTSEs are on the up-bounce, and predictions are coming out that unbound from the comatose EU economy, and with free access to the world’s markets, the UK will surge very nicely ahead. Project Fear R.I.P.

    Here’s some good reads from sane and sober Canadian sources to cheer you folks up:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/terence-corcoran-dont-be-bamboozled-brexit-creates-huge-opportunities-for-the-u-k

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/richard-m-salsman-britain-will-thrive-after-its-free-from-the-eus-socialists

    Hang-on to your knickers, folks, all will be well. You’re the talk of the town and with a lot more friends and in much higher places than the faculty lounges and the social justice war rooms than it may look. Good night and sleep well!

    • Dreadnaught

      Nice one AviLad.

      • Old Nick

        Nothing like an attack of Acute Cognitive Dissonance for the BBC and the Manchester Grauniad.

    • Manfarang

      When the GFA is unpicked you will see riots again in Belfast and the rest of NI. In fact there is a riot every year so it doesn’t make the international news but this time they will excel.

      • Good point. Every racial incident and unkind word will be tacked onto the evil Brexiteers…but not by all, as the MSM has finally started to weaken. I noticed that this attack of distractions was much shorter than others.

        • Manfarang

          They mostly are sectarian incidents in NI.

  • Maxine Schell

    Will someone tell me? How did a “common market” get to the European Federal Government?

    • Manfarang

      It didn’t, it was sold to the British as a common market.

      • James60498 .

        Amazingly I received a work e-mail yesterday from someone (wealthy, office in the city, house in France, intelligent) that referred to the decision to leave the EEC.

        I was so shocked that I stopped reading. I will have to go in the office now and re-read it.

        • Nu? That was six hour ago. Will you share the shock? We can handle it.

          • James60498 .

            The reference to the EEC.

            The EEC ceased to exist long ago. If it hadn’t we might not have been leaving it.

  • James60498 .

    Did you hear Cameron tell the truth? It only lasted a second.

    In his speech yesterday he referred to the “people I have been working for”.

    Then changed it to “people I have been working with”.

  • I would suggest that in the longer term, any reduction in the number of immigrants is more likely to reduce racism towards those already here.

    • Dreadnaught

      The ‘racism’ we are hearing of is from, as the Muslims would say’ a very tiny minority and unrepresentative of the British public in general.
      The press and such are like a dog with a bone – let them do what they have always done and leave ‘racism’ unreported until such time there is an arrest and prosecution of the individual involved.

  • len

    Enter the’ Euro man’.He loves what the EU tells him is acceptable to love and he hates what the EU tells him to hate.He has been conditioned much as the frog sitting in a pan of water where the temperature gradually increases until he is cooked never noticing what is happening until it is too late.
    Those who discerned the rise in temperature and seen their fate and escaped from the EU will one day in the future be seen as preserving the democratic process before the EU destroyed it altogether…

  • On ‘divisiveness’. I had to laugh at that hate-filled old commie Dennis Skinner saying Mrs Thatcher shouldn’t be honoured by Parliament as she was ‘divisive’. And he and his mate Arthur Scargill weren’t? Division occurs when there are 2 or more views. Leftists, Remainers and others who are certain in themserlves that the hold the mortal and intellectual high ground love to fling the accusation of ‘divisiveness’ , never acknowledging that they are divisive too. As they judge you for being judgmental, they imply that you should stop division by obeying their world view.