Extremism

There was a blast and then a flash of fire, and then Jesus came to Manchester

Bodies and blood.

Carnage, terror and tears.

“There are children among the deceased,” confirmed Greater Manchester Police. “This has been the most horrific incident we have had to face,” said Chief Constable Ian Hopkins.

Nuts and bolts and nails.

Smoke and burning.

“This is horrific, this is criminal,” said Harun Khan, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain. “May the perpetrators face the full weight of justice both in this life and the next.”

Emergency services praised.

Cobra committee convened.

“Please hold the people of #Manchester in your prayers,” tweeted David Walker, Bishop of Manchester. “We’ve faced terror attacks before and this latest won’t defeat us.”

Fear and division.

Thoughts, prayers and condemnation.

Evil descended upon Manchester Arena last night: his target was teenagers at a pop concert. He wore a vest packed with explosives and metal bits. There was a blast and then a flash of fire. And then everyone just started running, screaming and crying.

And then Jesus came.

“We are visiting for a health conference from morecambe bay trust tomorrow 3 Theatre ODPs available if needed,” tweeted Kirsty Withers, an NHS theatre clinical manager.

“If anyone needs shelter we are right on the outskirts of central Manchester in Salford, anything I can do to help DM me!!” tweeted science student Karolina Staniecka.

“Anyone in Manchester who needs to wait for their parents or needs somewhere stay or to make phone calls, etc, just DM me. We have tea!” offered the BBC’s Simon Clancy.

“Anyone needing somewhere to stay can come to our Manchester headquarters in the city centre,” tweeted Stephen Bartlett.

“The Holiday Inn nearest to Manchester Arena have taken dozens of kids who have been separated from their parents tonight,” said Samuel Carvalho.

“Taxi drivers in #Manchester offering free journeys to those stranded after the events in #ManchesterArena,” tweeted Bethan Bonsall.

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me,‘ said Jesus.

Out of the depths comes light; out of oppression, a new possibility and hope. You can blame and curse the Islamist in bitterness and hate, or you can sing a song of joy because there’s a better story to tell. In times of distress and suffering, there are little signs of the presence of the Lord: manna falls from desert bushes; quail drifts in with the wind; water is to be found in the most unexpected places. And the water of life is the presence of love and compassion, of guidance and affection, of ordinary people doing extraordinary little things to help their fellow man, for no other reason than that they want to and can.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion‘ (Ps 137:1).

Lord, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?‘ (Ps 94:3).

Is the Lord among us or not?‘ (Ex 17:7).

The power of death brings unbearable grief, but God restores the soul. To live is to praise. There is kindness in darkness, and mercy in Manchester. It is the intuitive pulse of faithfulness, covenant, unity and peace. May God bless those who mourn, and wipe every tear from their eyes.

  • John

    His Grace quotes from the beginning of Psalm 94. This psalm ends:

    The wicked band together against the righteous
    and condemn the innocent to death.
    But the Lord has become my fortress,
    and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.
    He will repay them for their sins
    and destroy them for their wickedness;
    the Lord our God will destroy them.

    • Busy Mum

      But is there anything ‘righteous’ about attending a pop concert?

      • John

        Perhaps not, but the very same wicked band who plot attacks like last night’s are not above severing heads of those righteous saints who prefer martyrdom to denying Christ.

        • Busy Mum

          True – so Ps 94 is not applicable in this instance.

      • betteroffoutofit

        Agree … probably not. However, if the attendees were young the fault may lie more in the hearts and minds of those who bred them to such nastiness, rather than to love Christian-based culture and devotion. Mayhap there’s a variation here of “Suffer little children . . .” (Matt. 19:14).

        • Busy Mum

          …and as I have pointed out to the Chef, these young children had school the next day and older children are in the middle of exams. Why on earth were they out so late?

    • David Harkness

      John, than you for drawing my attention to that, bless you.

  • Jill

    I have an adult daughter living in Manchester, and although I didn’t really think she would have been at the concert one can’t help worrying, and trawling through social media this morning seeing all the pleas for news of loved ones and photographs of lovely young people missing was utterly heartbreaking.

    My daughter okay and has gone off to school this morning to face the youngsters in her class. While they are probably too young to have been there, they may well have older siblings and/or parents who could have. I feel sick to my stomach.

  • Sarky

    With regards to the title of this piece… funny how he only turns up after the event.
    I find it a bit distasteful that you try and make a theological point from people’s reaction to an atrocity. Lets be honest most of these people helping probably had no religious affiliation whatsoever.

    • Chefofsinners

      Jesus showed up about 2017 years before this event.
      Those who have been compassionate and kind have learned to do so from a culture based on Christian values, which has been encouraging such behaviour for most of the last 2017 years. Let’s face it, Darwin only gives us nature, red in tooth and claw.

      • Sarky

        Hold on a minute. On an almost daily basis, people on this site bemoan the loss of christian values in this country. Are you saying people just suddenly rediscovered them? Or could it be that the desire to help eachother in need is just what we do and actually has nothing to do with christianity? I’m also pretty sure you can’t learn to be kind and compassionate.

        • Chefofsinners

          People bemoan the loss of Christian values because we see a decline in compassion. Society is replacing our obligations to others with casual sex, abortion, childcare, hospices, care homes and euthanasia. All underpinned by humanist philosophy. It is evident that the desire to help each other is not “just what we do.”

          • Sarky

            And yet….

          • Chefofsinners

            What?

          • Cressida de Nova

            You are absolutely right about our extreme selfishness and egocentricity. We have no obligations. It is perfectly acceptable never to be inconvenienced in any way in our progressive Western society. We are entirely focussed on ourselves .Too awful. Too true.

    • Busy Mum

      I would imagine that most of the people at the concert had no religious affiliation whatsoever, either.

      • Sarky

        And your point is?

        • Busy Mum

          So why should anyone expect Jesus to have been present before the event?

          • Sarky

            In one sentence you have confirmed my atheism.

          • Busy Mum

            Why? Just because He wasn’t there, doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Oh, He was there – He’s Omnipresent. And all Goodness is of Him: so the goodness His Grace refers to is a manifestation of Him. And if He permitted the Evil . . . then He illuminates the difference between that and said goodness.

          • Busy Mum

            Yes – of course. I was responding to the comment in like-for-like terms.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            And millions of children are slaughtered in abortions every year.

          • Sarky

            Massive difference Martin and you know it.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            No, there is no difference.

          • Only in numbers.

          • Busy Mum

            Just picked up your edited comment – I will not bite at the ‘for gods sake’ but I do remember you once referred to my children as ‘resource guzzlers’….

          • Sarky

            ???

          • Busy Mum

            You seem to value a dead child more highly than a live one.

          • Sarky

            What the hell are you on??

            I value all children. The fact you can equate a conversation about tax credits to this atrocity quite frankly astounds me.

            I think your last post requires an apology.

    • Sarky

      Reluctant as I am to do so, I agree.

      As a Christian I ask, Why does Jesus come only in the compassion and not the explosion. I refer to his providence. In his providence he acts in both mercy and judgement. The only other way he comes is in his people; where his body is, he is.

  • CliveM

    The target was children. It was the deliberate attempt to kill and maim as many of our young as possible.

    This is as evil as it gets.

    “Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not”

    Today will be bitter and comfort less for too many today. The grief will appear impenetrable.

    Today we remember and pray for those who weren’t helped by the taxi drivers or the Holiday Inn, but were left behind. Unmoving. Dead.

    I’m sick of the ‘celebrity ‘ tweets.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      ” It was the deliberate attempt to kill and maim as many of our young as possible.”. They are finishing what they started in Rochdale.

      • Little Black Censored

        Finishing? I doubt it.

      • Merchantman

        Spot on. The sickness of this attack which was precisely targeted cannot be understated. It is an entirely logical consequence of the same extreme Islamic doctrines that terrorised and abused the young girls in Rochdale and the tens of thousands enslaved in Iraq, Syria, Nigeria and elsewhere. It must be understood by everyone what we are up against, and the PC coverups have to stop.They give comfort to the enemy.

    • Anton

      Twitter has to be the largest waste of time around.

      • CliveM

        Couldn’t agree more.

  • Anton

    I have been surprised that this took so long to happen in Britain, given 9/11 and atrocities on the Continent. I expect more, and worse, in the future. If our leaders wish to learn how to run a Western democracy in the face of this sort of thing then they should talk to the Israelis. Meanwhile, at the personal level, let persons of goodwill show love to all, in which I entertain the modest hope that Christians may take the lead.

    • CliveM

      It’s not the first time it’s happened. Remember the tube bombings.

      • Anton

        Oops yes. It doesn’t matter if I forget. It does when our leaders do.

        • CliveM

          Our leaders certainly seem to suffer from a collective amnesia.

          • bluedog

            No. Amnesia is involuntary. Our leaders refuse to confront the evidence which points to the fatal flaw in an immigration policy based on multiculturalism. The flaw being the beliefs of Islam, a supremacist ideology that advocates and validates the suicidal violence we now see so often.

      • Sarky

        Lee Rigby, westminster bridge??

        • Anton

          I confess to forgetting the tube bombings (see below), but I hadn’t forgotten those you mention; I was referring to events of mass murder.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Behold the fruits of multi-culturalism. Still the Left are shrieking against “Islamophobia”. The politicians will soon be on TV telling us this is nothing to do with Islam. The Islamic Council of Britain says it is “criminal”; so is shoplifting but it hardly compares to this depraved butchery. We are told that the community is “strong”, but not strong enough to prevent the next slaughter of innocents whenever that is going to happen. Mixed in with this act of pure evil we have to endure the weasel words of those who refuse to face the truth. One way or another this has got to stop, before the West is literally blown into submission.

    • Chefofsinners

      This is not the result of multiculturalism or of Islam. It is the result of an extremist ideology, tacitly supported by a large number of people in our country. Hearts and minds must be won if this is ever to be stopped. You are in danger of drawing the line which divides you from the enemy much too close to yourself. You will exclude those who could be your most effective allies, those closer to the problem.

      • Sarky

        If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Islam is fundamentally anti-Christian so I don’t think we can consider many of them to be “allies”. Peaceful co-existence has been and is possible, but when push comes to shove most Muslims are not going to condemn what has happened. When they do condemn, there is always the possibility of Taqiyya. Multiculturalism has not simply allowed these people to live here but has encouraged their sense of grievance and entitlement. Those cultures that don’t commit atrocities (Jews, Hindus for instance) don’t have that sense of grievance. Neither does their religion explicitly encourage the persecution and slaughter of unbelievers .There is something uniquely dangerous about Islam in a western culture

        • Chefofsinners

          Be practical. Most Muslims abhor this violence. If the problem is to be solved we must work with them, not alienate them.

          • Anton

            How?

          • Chefofsinners

            How to not alienate them? Refrain from scattergun blaming of multiculturalism or of Islam. Define the enemy narrowly and unite against it.

          • Anton

            No; how to work with them?

          • Chefofsinners

            It already happens. Police gain most of their useful information from Muslims. If you make comments which alienate the entire Muslim community, it will turn inwards and the flow of information will dry up.

          • Anton

            Most of their information comes from pattern analysis of sigint.

            The proportion who want sharia enforced in the UK is alarming.

          • Busy Mum

            ‘the entire Muslim community’ – says it all – where, and to whom, is an individual’s ultimate loyalty?
            The word community is very dangerous – it is the means by which the inhabitants of these islands are being divided and conquered. I cannot see any difference between ‘communities’ and ‘tribes’.

          • Chefofsinners

            I am not defending multiculturalism. I am saying it is not the precise cause of yesterday’s bombing. Integration of all sub-communities is in some ways desirable. But then it is only human to flock together and for cultural variations to live side by side. Who would want to force the Yorkshireman to give up his bitter or the Somerset yokel his cider?

          • Busy Mum

            But the Yorkshireman and the Somerset yokel found common ground where none can be found between a Christian and a Muslim.

          • Chefofsinners

            Yes it can be found. We are all standing on it.

          • Anton

            Half of our Muslims, actually. Sharia demands teetotalism.

          • Chefofsinners

            No, I mean cultural differences have long existed and been celebrated within the white British population.

          • bockerglory

            Actually, ottoman Muslims did drink. They interpret the Quran as no drinking when waging jihad or Ramadam… Islam has become more puritannical over last 100yrs. Also some say that Mohammed and the Quran is referring to soldiers (and not having date mash beer like drink). That is why heaven for Muslims has wine flowing etc…

          • Little Black Censored

            The flocking together of this particular community ought not to be taking place here. Our society has been poisoned.

          • bluedog

            Most Muslims abhor the violence because it threatens their comfortable existence within the West. Yet Islam provides the motive for violence, and the ummah is the incubator within which the deadly schemes are devised.

          • Do they? I don’t see much evidence.

      • Anton

        The quran is a two-minded book and this act accurately reflects one of those two facets. We may be glad that many of its followers reflect the other facet, but nobody who is in two minds is a useful ally. Without multiculturalism this belief system would scarcely be represented here. So your first sentence is the opposite of the facts.

        If you believe that our government can put clever policies in place that play divide-and-rule within the relevant community, what are these policies?

        • Chefofsinners

          “Without multiculturalism this belief system would scarcely be represented here.”
          You mean without immigration? Maybe. But without pop concerts cthis atrocity would not have happened. Without explosives being invented (blame Alfred Nobel, or the Chinese). Without military interventions abroad.
          My point is that you have to look more closely, establish the exact causality and operate with surgical precision.

          • Anton

            You are avoiding answering HOW our authorities might play divide-and-rule within the Muslim community.

          • Chefofsinners

            No, I’m saying we continue to do what we are doing now. Further to this, we might close down more mosques where extremism is preached, imprison or deport more hate preachers, especially once we’re free of the ECHR. We might emelody greater numbers of security service officers and devote more resources to monitoring communications.

            Mostly, though, I am advising against saying things which will further marginalise or ostracise all Muslims, because that will turn our allies into our enemies.

          • Anton

            I agree that our present government should not say such things at this time. I do not think that we should self-censor on Christian blogs, however, and I would be glad to see a political party founded to campaign on what might be called an anti-Sharia ticket.

          • Chefofsinners

            Most mainstream politicians are anti-Sharia altready.

          • Anton

            They do not see it coming.

      • bluedog

        ‘Hearts and minds must be won if this is ever to be stopped. ‘

        You need to face the possibility that hearts and minds cannot be won. It is crystal clear that there are a large number of individuals within the UK who are prepared to die for their religion taking the maximum number of kuffars with them. Once they are martyrs, the hearts and minds of these jihadis can no longer be won. Others will then take their place, believing that they too can please Allah by killing the unbeliever. There seems little doubt that as the perimeter of the caliphate shrinks in Iraq and Syria, the atrocities at home will continue to ramp up. The question therefore arises, after the fall of the caliphate will there be peace, or a vicious insurgency that exceeds anything yet seen across the West?

        • Chefofsinners

          Hearts and minds are there to be won. This is what the process of radicalisation does. If we wish to oppose it we must preach the truth – the gospel – with renewed vigour. Like Paul on Mars Hill, we begin wherever the people are and proclaim to them the unknown God. Unfortunately our society at large is not going to countenance this as a solution and will always be peddling materialism, humanism and atheism, which are not convincing alternatives to Islamic extremism. They may, however, convince extremists to turn from such depths of evil.

          • bluedog

            When one recalls the recent blatherings of a certain young Left-wing priest, one is confident that the CoE is unlikely to do anything other than reinforce the sense of victimhood in which the ummah wallows.

    • Little Black Censored

      Islamophobia is an entirely natural result of Islam-inspired random murder and terror and Islam-justified gang raping and trafficking.

  • When Jesus was in Manchester He dropped in on its bishop, reminded him of his enthusiasm for mass immigration, pointed out that yesterday’s atrocity was a direct consequence of immigration and informed the bishop that his hands were now drenched in the blood of children.

    • CliveM

      That’s a crass thing to say. The only people whose hands are drenched with blood are those who planned and perpetrated this atrocity.

      • Anton

        I couldn’t have written the satire so directly about Jesus, but Johnny is saying no more than Enoch Powell did in his famous speech in 1968.

        • CliveM

          The context of the words in Powells speech and JR’s comments are entirely different

          • Anton

            Please see the quote from that speech which I have given in a reply to Magnolia above.

          • CliveM

            Nothing about that changes my view.

          • Anton

            The context is that Johnny is writing in a Britain that Enoch specifically warned against and that our leaders could have prevented, and a worse place it is too.

        • magnolia

          That is a misinterpretation of said speech. The point was that -given human propensities for tribalism and evil- just as in the Aeneid warfare broke out and blood flowed, so it was likely, emphatically not desirable, that blood would flow should we attempt to assimilate too many people from too divergent cultures too quickly.

          I cannot see that he would put direct blame on those who hadn’t made full allowance for this very unpleasant truth about human nature. It is unfortunate that he took the advice of those who advised him to say it in English rather than Latin, as others had advised, so perhaps he shares the blame at several removes. It would have been better had the bookishness of his comments been kept bookish, as then his words would not have been used as an excuse for boorishness. That is life; few of us get just the right words.

          • Anton

            He directed blame alright. From that speech:

            We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population.

      • Demon Teddy Bear

        And those who enabled it, praised the means by which it came about, and acted to defend the cause afterwards. Look at your hands….

        • CliveM

          Easy to be brave, hiding behind a rediculous pseudonym. You’ve nothing interesting to say, go bore someone else.

          • Demon Teddy Bear

            Nothing to offer but personal abuse, in defence of terror? Faugh.

          • CliveM

            Nothing to offer but lies and misrepresentation? Faugh.

      • @ CliveM—The only people whose hands are drenched with blood are those who planned and perpetrated this atrocity

        An odd stance for a Christian to take, what with Christianity being quite keen on personal responsibility. A bishop, or anyone else, who advocates mass immigration must expect to be held accountable for the consequences.

        • Anton

          Absolutely.

      • Merchantman

        The liberal so called Bishops and their fellow travellers are derelict in many ways and their unsettling of a society by preaching of their false gospel or effectively no gospel at all should consider their position in all this.

    • Hi

      No, because your argument is frankly based on the faulty logic that all” immigrants are terrorists”. That’s just not true.

      • Anton

        No, it’s based on the logic that “all terrorists [today] are immigrants”, not “all immigrants are terrorists”. Very different! All pregnant persons are women but not all women are pregnant.

        • Hi

          Hmmm. But the biggest immigration group today are Roman Catholic Poles and other Eastern Europeans.

  • Jon Sorensen

    This disgusting Manchester bomb was part of Jesus’ plan and Jesus stayed away from the concert. But after it “everyone just started running, screaming and crying” “And then Jesus came”. How can anyone worship someone who planned this bombing…

    • betteroffoutofit

      Mr. Sorensen – Christ did not plan the bombing. (In)humans planned it: God allows mankind the freedom to choose our paths on this lone and unique planet. If we use that freedom to learn the about Good and Evil – what they are and how they affect life – then we fulfill His Plan of Salvation.

      We’re terribly slow, though – just because some of us were smart enough to develop the physical science (by learning His Physics Laws) behind bomb-making, doesn’t mean that we all know what is right and wrong about the use of bombs. So we use freedom to teach each other . . . or not.

      Christ Himself is omniscient and eternal – (in)human life on this planet is less than a spark in His being. He knows what we did to cause all this stuff that, to our miniscule minds and spirits, seems so monumental. And He knows what the final outcome will be – but he lets us carry on. It is part of His Goodness that He allows us the opportunity to learn the value of Good. He even tries to help us do it. Btw: the word God is Old English for Good.

      • Jon Sorensen

        Mr. betteroffoutofit,
        If you had read the Bible you would know that it (Ephesians 1:11) clearly says all things are done according to Jesus’ plan and decision. So you are clearly wrong about that. This was Jesus’ plan all along. You also think that we have “freedom to choose our paths” when the Bible clearly tell us that sometimes Jesus hardens our heart to do thing we don’t want to do. Maybe Jesus’ hardened Salmas’ heard to do God’s work…

  • Colin

    Thought for the day had these words:
    “In Manchester this morning and across the country people of all faiths
    and none will choose how we respond. For the vast majority that will
    mean facing down the narrative of hatred with a stronger narrative of
    compassion and community.”
    I echo the call to face down the narrative of hatred with a stronger narrative. Lets examine our comments, our tweets and responses and ask “Is this reflecting hatred? Or is this reflecting Jesus’ grace (including to immigrants, Muslims and others we may tar with a brush of hatred”

    • Anton

      The political and the personal responses to events such as this need to be distinguished.

      • Colin

        What good is a political response of hatred towards others?

        • Anton

          There will not be agreement as to whether a political response involves hatred. What you might call hatred I might call self-protection.

          • betteroffoutofit

            “Hatred” has devolved into another marxist buzzword. If we must use it, then perhaps we should move from the general to the particular. It behoves us to analyze who and what it is that we ‘strongly dislike’ and why.

            After all – we have a right to dislike Invaders who take our country from us, kill our children, and corrupt the civilisation our ancestors worked so hard to develop. If we want to sacrifice our country and our race to them . . . and to love (opposite of “Hate” btw) the process. Hey. The Gates of Hell are open wide – and they’re nearer than we realised.

        • Demon Teddy Bear

          Pretty effective in rallying against the foe, actually.

        • Step11Recovery

          Hatred, perhaps not, though it’s hard to resist. But defiance is a different matter.

      • Very important.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      If I’m confronted with a vicious dog I will do what I need to protect myself and whoever else may be in danger. Not sure what that has to do with “hate”; it’s preservation of myself and those around me, or is self-defence a hate-crime now?

    • Little Black Censored

      “I echo the call to face down the narrative of hatred with a stronger narrative.”
      Who are you to “echo” the call? Brendan Cox?

    • Jesus also said “See that you do not despise one of these [children]. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.” (Mt 18:10). I doubt he would approve of people sitting around and pontificating about ‘narratives’ while children are murdered. Compassion and community are fine, but there also has to be justice and effective prevention unless we just want to go through this again and again and again.

  • CliveM

    This was an attack on the ‘other’. It wasn’t an attack on Christianity or western valies, rather it was an attack on all who were not ‘like them ‘. White, black, Christian, atheist, Hindu or whatever. It was also an attack on Muslims who reject IS’s definition on what it is to be Muslim and how a Muslim should behave.

    If we start lumping all those who aren’t us as the ‘other’, to be treated differently and marginalised, we play their game.

    • Anton

      How many “Muslims who reject IS’s definition on what it is to be Muslim” were likely to be in the crowd leaving a Ariana Grande gig?

      • CliveM

        I can’t say, but the first person I heard. Interviewed (who’s daughter was at the concert) was called Khan, which originates in Muslim countries.

        The Muslim community will have the accommodators, the nominal, the liberal, just like Christianity.

        • Anton

          But they don’t turn in their known terrorist plotters to the police and nearly half of them want Sharia enforced here.

          • CliveM

            That means more than half don’t.

            It is also a grossly sweeping statement to say they don’t turn in the known plotters. Some won’t, some will.

          • Anton

            40% of several million people wanting a revolution here is not good news even if the other 60% don’t.

          • CliveM

            See my response to Mrs Proudie above.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            How many Russians wanted Bolshevism in 1917 yet had it forced upon them? Small numbers of radicals driven by ideology can change the world, as we have seen many times.

          • CliveM

            I’m not saying that we don’t treat the threat properly. I’m not saying let more in en masse. I am not saying don’t kick out those who abuse our hospitality.What I am saying is, don’t let the bastards who did this last night turn us into pale imitation of themselves.

            Rightly or wrongly they are here and marginalising the good, won’t help with the bad.

          • Anton

            The trouble is that the quran is a two-minded book and what does Proverbs say about people in two minds?

          • CliveM

            I’m no fan of Islam. Its origins and history are at best problematical. But that doesn’t make all its adherents terrorists or supporters of terrorists.

          • Anton

            If you want to be a better Muslim then you live more like Muhammad did. Are you aware of his life?

          • CliveM

            Broadly and I am aware of his various failings. I did say the origin of Islam was problematical.

            However that doesn’t change the fact that different Muslims and sects within Islam have different views on what the ‘Prophets’ message is and which requirements carry the most weight.

            Nothing that involves billions of people will have a uniform view.

          • Anton

            But they all agree that the quran is the unmediated word of the omnipotent Creator, and it says with crystal clarity that wherever Islam is not accepted freely then it is to be imposed by force. All Muslims also agree that Muhammad lived the ideal life, and one of the sayings of his in the hadith which they regard as sahih (reliable) is “I have been made victorious with terror”.

            Many Muslims are nominal. For that, let us be thankful. But know what you re dealing with.

          • CliveM

            They all believe that Islam can be imposed by force? Do they? What about the Ahmadi? That the Quran is the unmediated word of the creator? Lots of Christians think that of the bible, but draw different understandings from it.

            Look I’m not defending Islam. What I am saying is that a view of it which is monolithic is wrong and ignores both human nature and the obvious disagreements and stresses within it.

          • Anton

            Have you actually read the quran?

          • CliveM

            Do I need to? We are not discussing the content, but how various Muslims and Islamic sects have responded to it.

          • Anton

            Ah, you haven’t read it. Others are free to decide for themselves whether you need to read the quran in order to pronounce authoritatively on whether Muslims who live peaceably are nominal or committed.

          • CliveM

            I’m not pointing at a Muslim and saying he is nominal. What I am saying from experience of Muslims is that they don’t all have common views and on a couple of occasions individuals have described themselves as nominal.

            Are you seriously suggesting that there aren’t nominal Muslims? Or that all Muslims, nominal or otherwise have a propensity to violence?

            Personally I leave it to Muslims to decide whether they are nominal or not, I certainly have no right to decide.

            And reading the Quran wouldn’t change that.

          • Anton

            If you can’t see that it is absurd to pontificate about what Muslims do without having read the quran then there’s nothing more I can say to you on that topic.

          • CliveM

            Anton

            I’ll need to remember that you find it difficult to deal with disagreement without resorting to childishness.

            I have argued my points politely and without the use of abuse. If you are unable to see That I am not defining what is or makes a Muslim or even what Muslims do, rather I am making the sociological point, based on dealing with people who are Muslim, that there is differing levels of commitment and understanding , then I would suggest the lack is yours.

            Either way, I’ll leave it too your community of ‘silent readers’ to decide.

          • Anton

            My previous comment was entirely serious and there’s nothing I can add to it. I look forward to reconvening on another topic.

          • CliveM

            Anton

            Going personal! Do you not ‘get’ what you wrote?

            Look to yourself.

          • Anton

            I attacked your views. You attacked my character.

          • CliveM

            Ok, just so you understand. Yesterday you commented that you wouldn’t have a concern if a photo of your dead child’s mutilated body appeared in public. Now what I could have said was “don’t you see how absurd it is to pontificate about this when you are childless and have no idea how you’d feel ”

            But it would have been rude to do so, particularly if up to that point the conversation had been civilised.

            It would have been even more rude to do so, if that hadn’t even been the point you are making.

            Anyway I wasted enough time on this.

          • Anton

            I said I’d be too busy mourning if a child of mine were killed to bother what the mass media printed. I don’t know why you think I am childless because I am careful not to mention my personal life on blogs.

          • CliveM

            Anton

            You are too much of a literalist. What I was attempting to do is try and show how a phrase using the words “absurd” and “pontificate ” aren’t simply descriptions, but are loaded with negative meaning which will absolutely be seen as personal.

          • Anton

            Perhaps we see lines in different places. I’d say that somebody’s views (including my own) are up for attack when expressed publicly, and that if offence is taken when a view is called absurd then the person is identifying with his views too closely. I regard any person as being much more than the sum of his or her views, and I would not attack somebody’s personality (at least not without a great deal of thought about higher good); it certainly was not my intention here.

          • Chefofsinners

            Quality argument, lads. Great one for the neutral.

          • CliveM

            Ok point taken.

          • Chefofsinners

            No, I meant it. You probably aren’t aware how brilliantly pure your logic is.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I have read it. Completely derivative…apart from the exhortations to kill.

          • Zach V. Roretz

            Only literalists think this of the Bible. Hard Protestants had to do this, because they had nothing else to cling onto after abandoning the corpus of tradition.

          • Little Black Censored

            Yes, it is the “good” Moslems we should beware of. The “bad” ones give less trouble.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            I’m glad you are not overtly disagreeing with me, dear Clive, or ‘d have to dust off the naughty step! Only jesting, only jesting…but what exactly are we doing? Is what we have worth fighting for, or do we just hash-tag ourselves to death with kumbaya cuddles and virtue signallingfests?

          • CliveM

            No we need a robust response, targeting those who are a danger (a large number of them already known to the security services) and kick them out.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Hmmm. The problem of whether or not there’s such a thing as a “just war” seems to lurk here, somewhere . . .

          • CliveM

            Even Corbyn (allegedly) believes in just war.
            Pity he wouldn’t recognise what it is.

          • bluedog

            Welcome back, Mrs P. One feared you had succumbed.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            No no dear Bluedog, a holiday in Orkney and Shetland bring joy to the Calvinists…

          • CliveM

            Still winter up there isn’t it?

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            No, Spring has woken up…you can tell because the fog is a lighter shade…

          • bluedog

            And they say Skegness is so bracing. Not much sleep in climes were it’s dark for ten minutes at one o’clock in the morning during high summer. No wonder they drink like fishes.

          • Chefofsinners

            So there is hope for the Labour Party?

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            That made me chuckle…nearly spilled my Sanatogen….

          • Step11Recovery

            Not necessarily disagreeing with the first half of your comment, but would, gently, point out that the second can be honestly rephrased as over half of them don’t want Sharia enforced here.

            Just an observation, no confrontation intended.

          • Anton

            The point is that Sharia is currently not enforced here! 40% of several million people wanting a revolution here is not good news…

          • Step11Recovery

            Ah, there we agree. There is no rephrasing of that point that makes it any more encouraging.

    • Little Black Censored

      It was an attack by fundamentalist Moslems on wicked western society, and entirely justified by the Koran.

  • Step11Recovery

    Amen, Your Grace. Amen.

  • Demon Teddy Bear

    What a wet, appeasing, snivelling post. If I were a Muslim, I would conclude you were about ready to pay the jirziyah protection tax.

  • Martin

    “And then Jesus came.”

    What a silly comment! The sort of comment we expect from Welby and those of the wishy washy Anglicanism.

    No, Jesus didn’t ‘come’, He is always with His people. Yes, people may have shown kindness, but, despite their sin, people often do. It’s because we are made in the image of God.

    But consider, when the people of Israel abandoned God, God caused the heathen nations to invade and destroy their nation. Can we expect anything less?

    • Chefofsinners

      No, we might very well expect God’s judgment to fall on our nation. However we should be pleading for mercy, as Abraham did for Lot.

      • Martin

        CoS

        Would it not be better to plead with people to turn to God?

        • Chefofsinners

          Yes. I wrote what I did because I hear people who are eager for God to judge our nation and I think it is an ungodly reaction.

          • Martin

            CoS

            So you don’t think God’s glory is important?

          • Anton

            Well, I pray for God to end the number of abortions that happen every day in Britain. I leave it up to God to how, and if He chooses Islam then perhaps you should take it up with him rather than me.

  • magnolia

    An army of completely black sniffer dogs is called for. That should sort more of these inhumane b**ards out.

    “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for widows and orphans in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.” (James 1.27).

    Those who do not have tenderness towards humans or animals are coming from a Satanic angle. Those who deliberately make widows and orphans in the name of any religion are opposing God.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Article 13 and Article 14 of the 39 Articles of the Church of England tell us a rather different tale about events than does this post.

  • James Paice

    The Gospel says Christ died for you to give you eternal life. The false Gospel says you have to kill others and die to get eternal life. It’s a shame you didn’t expose that. The real Cranmer would have done.

    • Anton

      This is not the first post that His Grace has made about Islamic terrorism. You will find the comment you seek under his name elsewhere on this blog.

  • prompteetsincere

    Jesus came to Manchester: unNamed by the Archbishop of Canterbury; as do the Left-Oriented Church/es going along to get along in their Red-Green alliance:
    while conducting what Churchill (PM Winston) called this “squalid war against the Jews”.

  • bs

    So let’s get this straight – no sign of (omnipotent) God during what is looking increasingly likely to have been a religiously motivated killing, but he’s all around in the course of the normal response of decent human beings who were almost certainly of all creeds and none.

    I do not for one moment believe that all religions are the same – they plainly are not and I carry no candle for Islam whatsoever – but I marvel at the ability of religious people to see the influence of their (omnipotent) God when good is in the air, but to report on his absence when bad things are happening without a blush.

    Whilst religions are very different, monotheists seem to give other monotheists the same the pass of not explicitly recognising how dangerous monetheism in general can be. Organised belief a some Supreme Being who is the sole God to worship, from whom to turn away is a sin, and who cannot be wrong, has throughout history carried with it the risk of conflict with non-believers and abuse by powerful/charismatic believers. A healthy slab of recognition of that fact might be more appropriate on a day like today rather than pious claptrap like the post above.

    • Demon Teddy Bear

      Is this quite the time to curse the Christians?

      • bs

        That is certainly not my aim at all. There are many Christian responses to the horror of yesterday that I’d think pitch perfect; and I would often use the word “Christian” to describe loving and generous behaviour. I am v. much a cultural Christian if not a believer. That said, the idea that the omnipotent God turned up to make everyone nice in the aftermath of this atrocity seems to me to be a distinctly off-key analysis.

    • Martin

      BS (how appropriate)

      Why would God be intervening when those there paid no attention to Him?

      Of course we know what Jesus’ response is:

      There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
      (Luke 13:1-5 [ESV])

      • Important quote. I intended to cite it. Above I commented that Jesus is providentially present in both acts of mercy and judgement; in acts of benevolence but also in bombs. We find it difficult to hold in tension that God’s compassion reaches out to a humanity so corrupted by sin that all deserve to die.

        • betteroffoutofit

          Yes – you’re expressing that well. Thank you.

  • Chefofsinners

    The best thing any of us can do in this situation is to preach and to live out the gospel. Reality check: People died last night without Christ. People all around us every day die without Christ. That is what matters most.
    Preach the gospel. As a side effect, society will be purified and blessed, evil will be diminished and restrained, false ideologies will be exposed and people will turn from them. But most of all, fewer people will die without Christ.
    (Calvinists need not reply.)

    • Martin

      CoS

      Guess what, Calvinists preach the gospel.

      • They preach what they “understand” to be the Gospel and in doing so contradict the nature of God and His unfathomable, limitless love and mercy for each and everyone of us.

        • Martin

          HJ

          You really should read the Bible:

          And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— she was told, The older will serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
          (Romans 9:10-13 [ESV]) emphasis mine.

          And tell me, Did God love Pharaoh?

          For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (Romans 9:17 [ESV])

          • Widen your perspective and include all of scripture in your theology, rather than narrowing it and excluding passages that contradict it.

          • Martin

            HJ

            I do include all of Scripture, unlike you.

          • Including James?

          • Martin

            HJ

            Of course including James, for James, read in context, agrees with what I have said. And so did the writer of the letter from the church at Rome to the church at Corinth, often called the first epistle of Clement.

          • Chefofsinners

            One being chosen to serve the other is not the same thing as one being chosen for eternal damnation.

          • Martin

            CoS

            But read to the end, Esau is hated.

      • Chefofsinners

        But not in order to save more souls. Just because they were told to.

        • Martin

          CoS

          I suggest you read the biographies of people like Newton, Whitfield, Spurgeon & Carey.

    • I guess I’m what you may call a Calvinist but I can wholly agree with what you write.

  • Jonathan Somerville

    Please remove or change the picture you’re using in this article. Those people are victims and deserve privacy, not to be a public spectacle in their suffering.

    • Chefofsinners

      That is a good suggestion. I winced at a picture on the BBC website this morning of a young woman, shocked, injured and less than fully dressed. We can at least give these people their dignity.

      • Busy Mum

        Yet they had just been at a concert whose sole focus was a woman who goes about less than fully dressed.

        • Chefofsinners

          Does she? And you are always careful to wear the full birkhini, I expect.
          This sounds a little like a comment that an Islamic fundamentalist would make to justify the bombing.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Ummmmm. Actually, I think that’s not quite fair to Busy Mum – she’s right about the indecency and immorality flaunted before the young today.
            Our British culture didn’t promote obscenity and pornography (though the earlier Italian/euro stuff offered some of it as ‘art’). Had we maintained and promoted our traditional Christian behaviors, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

            Nevertheless, one is with you in that the vile Mozzies aren’t justified – one knows that Our Lord taught other ways than theirs. We should also be standing up against their corruption of Truth and Logos.

          • Chefofsinners

            If it is wrong for the young to flaunt themselves then it is wrong to take and distribute pictures of them doing so. Especially when even more of their clothing has just been removed by a bomb blast and they are too dazed to think about standing in a more modest pose.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Yes. I’ve never been a proponent of graphic violence . . . if only because I need to sleep at nights! Its promotion seems to be a human tendency, though: from crucifixes to “The Life of Brian” – and even some of the nasty medieval imagery in, for example, texts by Margery Kempe.

            Some years ago, I went to a church near Glasgow where the preacher produced the largest (over 6″) nails he could find and proceeded to illustrate the details of the Crucifixion. I got up and walked out, never to return.

            Those who stayed ? ? Perhaps some people lack imagination, or perhaps it has something to do with the inability to perceive reality by any other means. Where Our Judge draws the line between those necessities and pornography remains to be seen.

          • Chefofsinners

            Sounds like a riveting sermon.

          • betteroffoutofit

            That would seem to be the problem 🙂

          • Busy Mum

            The burkini does not equate to Christian modesty, which relies on the individual to exercise self-restraint and self-control and to honour one’s obligations to others in these respects. The burkini stems from lower expectations.

            Loose dress is just one symptom of the abandonment of Christianity in this nation. Don’t you think God would use that to justify His judgments on us?

            As you said earlier, we need to specify very carefully the causality of this atrocity. I agree with you that it is not Islam per se. It is because this nation has said loudly and clearly, ‘We will not have this Man to reign over us.’

          • Chefofsinners

            I do not think that a singer wearing a short skirt or whatever justifies publishing pictures of the audience after a bomb blast, clothing shredded and too dazed to think about whether they are standing modestly. A Christian friend of mine was at the concert with her sister. She looked pretty much like the rest of them. Probably wearing a lot more than you do on the beach, at the swimming pool or on a hot day. Have a bit of compassion. Half of them were children.

          • Busy Mum

            I assure you could not be more wrong. It is a long, long time since I wore a standard swimming costume and I have never ever worn a sleeveless/strappy top, yet alone a bikini.

            Yes, half of them were children (trigger warning – find a safe space – this may be construed as an insensitive comment) – but somebody needs to ask the question…what on earth were all these children doing at a late night concert with school the next day? Bearing in mind, too, that it is exam season for the older children…

          • Anton

            Well said.

          • Busy Mum

            Thank you. I shared this thought with a teacher down at the school earlier today; she agreed that this had crossed her mind too. We need to do some serious soul-searching as a nation and be prepared – and at liberty – to think the unthinkable and say the unsayable.

          • Anton

            Dear Busy Mum

            If you can bear it (be warned, although it is written by a sincere Christian) then read this about Ariana Grande’s lyrics to see EXACTLY how right you are:

            http://www.barnhardt.biz/2017/05/27/manchester-the-brutal-truth/

          • Busy Mum

            Thankyou – I just grabbed a rare moment of peace during half term to catch up on email etc and saw your link.

            Confirms everything I thought.

          • Chefofsinners

            No it’s not. It makes me want to vomit. It is crass and self righteous beyond belief. Utterly bereft of humanity or godliness.

          • Chefofsinners

            There are about a million questions worth asking more than that one. Nobody ‘needs’ to ask it.
            These people were committing no crime, but they were slaughtered without mercy. Your words are sickening. How can the love of Christ be in you?

          • Busy Mum

            I never claimed it was….

            Mercy is a Christian concept. Why would you expect it from non-Christians?

          • Anton

            Please see the analysis of Ariana Grande lyrics by Ann Barnhardt which I have posted on more than one thread. (I am not interested in what else Barnhardt says.)

        • Jonathan Somerville

          I think the focus might have been her music rather than her attire though?

          • betteroffoutofit

            What music?

          • Anton

            Not for the boys who were there.

          • Busy Mum

            As Rhoda has pointed out, the song lyrics would have been just as likely to bring down God’s wrath, however the singer was dressed.

        • Sarky

          Do you have a special file marked ‘insensitive comments’.

          • Inspector General

            Dressing like a prostitute is oh so young and with it, for some reason…

          • Sarky

            Am i the only one who think it’s messed up to be talking about a singers clothing when kids have died??
            You just can’t beat a bit of christian love and understanding.

          • Inspector General

            No, you really can’t beat a bit of Christian love for the children.

          • Sarky

            Really?? According to ‘busy mum’ i value dead children over live ones.
            If that’s christian love you can stick it!!

          • Inspector General

            You’ve been ‘sticking’ Christianity ever since you arrived here, you ignorant whatever…

          • Sarky

            And you haven’t???

          • Martin

            Sarky

            Like aborted babies no doubt.

          • Chefofsinners

            I’m with you, Sarky. Sometimes the best measure of a comment is the reaction of non-Christians.

          • Sarky

            I find it very very sad that for some people, point scoring against me is more important than 22 dead and 59 in hospital with horrendous injuries.
            As I’ve said in another comment, if this is christianity I’m glad I’m not part of it.

          • Chefofsinners

            This is not Christianity. It is anger.

          • Anton

            Some of us theists think we see a connection, hence the subject, which is a serious one. The sexualisation of just-pubescent and even pre-pubescent children, which is now mainstream in our culture, is a potent symbol of just how decadent and disgusting our culture, which was formerly the world’s best I don’t mind saying, has become. This concert symbolised it rather well, and it shows how terribly ripe before God we are for judgement. The other night the vehicle of that judgement showed itself in indiscriminate slaughter. Look upon it as a foretaste, I am truly sorry to say.

          • Sarky

            If you haven’t been to one of her concerts how can you possibly comment??
            And if this is Gods judgement, then your god is sick and deserves not to be worshiped.

          • Anton

            I can comment for the same reason historians born after 1945 can comment on World War 2.

            God is just. It’s we who are sick, all of the human race.

          • Sarky

            No you can’t, you’re making assumptions to fit your argument.
            At the end of the day, even if she was performing naked, what happened cannot be excused.
            How can you say god is just when kids have been killed? You’re starting to sound no different from the people who did this and that’s a very dangerous path.

          • Anton

            You misunderstand, Sarky, I’m not excusing it for one second. I’m *explaining* it, from a perspective you don’t share, in the hope you will understand this perspective even if you don’t agree with it. As for the people who made the bomb for the man, they are as responsible for murder as he was, and I advocate the death penalty if we catch them.

            Disagreement is fine but please don’t misunderstand me.

          • Sarky

            I dont think I’ve misunderstood anything. You were saying that what happened was a vehicle of gods judgement for the over sexualisation of kids.
            All i said was, if so, your god is sick.

          • Anton

            To be totally explicit, I believe that Islam is God’s impending judgement on our culture for the sins that have led to rampant family breakdown. The sexualisation of just-pubescent and even pre-pubescent children is obviously correlated with this. An Islamic revolution would be a horror, but it would “fit the crime”. What happened in Manchester, I see as a warning. and I repeat that if the bomb-makers are caught then capital punishment is OK by me. As for your view of God, he’s the only God there is so better make peace with him.

          • Sarky

            I don’t like your god.

          • Anton

            I know! Please take it up with him directly.

          • Sarky

            Thats not how atheism works.

          • Anton

            It doesn’t work.

          • Sarky

            It does for me.

          • Anton

            It won’t.

          • Sarky

            It will.

          • Anton

            Time will tell. But it didn’t work for me.

          • Cressida de Nova

            You are right. Our society is empty shallow and sick. A Basquiat has just sold for 110 million dollars in NY. Enough said.Lunacy prevails.

          • Chefofsinners

            Yes, it was a bit extravagant, but I felt I deserved a little treat.

          • Anton

            Good investment Chef, you can vomit on it and nobody would notice, which is not true of Vermeer’s paintings.

          • Anton

            I think he’s bought it as an investment rather than to look at, which means that he’s sane but society isn’t.

          • CliveM

            I don’t believe that is Christian love or understanding.
            There is no excuse for the atrocity and is absolutely not “Gods Judgement ‘ for a scantily dressed singer.

          • Anton

            This tells it like it is about Ariana Grande:

            http://www.barnhardt.biz/2017/05/27/manchester-the-brutal-truth/

            I don’t associate myself with some of the author’s comments about Muslims.

          • Anton

            If she does, could she please email it to me?

          • Busy Mum

            No less sensitive than Jesus Himself who, referring to two multiple death episodes (one a ‘natural’ disaster and the other a human atrocity) said that unless we – i.e. those who escaped this time – repent, we shall all likewise perish.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            What you call insensitive is relevant. But then you’re all in favour of immorality, aren’t you, for it cocks a snoot at the God you hate.

        • Rhoda

          Some of the song lyrics are suspect too.

    • Anton

      If I were one of them I would not mind.

      • Chefofsinners

        Because they are dead. What if one of them was your daughter?

        • Anton

          If I were one of them and injured I would not mind.

          If one was my daughter then I think I’d be too busy grieving to give a damn, but I wouldn’t mind in principle.

          What is wrong with it?

          • Chefofsinners

            Different people will react differently. If it was my child’s body I wouldn’t want the picture posted where Islamic fundamentalists could gloat or use it as propaganda.
            In this case, the permission of the relatives will not have been obtained. Therefore it is respectful to not publish.
            I know that no crime has been committed in publishing the picture. Our images are not our own. It’s a matter of judgment, sensitivity and journalistic standards.

          • Anton

            How sensitive you are!

          • Chefofsinners

            And you aren’t. It’s the scientist in you, I suppose.

          • Inspector General

            Anton, bless him, is renowned for his obtuseness. or he should be…

          • Anton

            Just leave the theology to others and stick to cultural matters, Inspector.

          • Anton

            That’s a compliment. Thank you, Teacher.

          • IrishNeanderthal

            A scientist myself, I have many times experienced how me and my fellow scientists can discuss gruesome and grisly subjects at table, without being put off the way non-scientists are,

            The danger is, when the intellect takes over, we can become what C.S.Lewis calloed “Men Without Chests”.

          • Chefofsinners

            Perhaps you have misunderstood an earlier conversation. I am not a teacher.

          • Anton

            OFSTED Inspector?

          • Chefofsinners

            I would rather die.

          • Anton

            School caretaker?

          • Chefofsinners

            Dinner lady.

          • Cressida de Nova

            We know. You are a French chef !

          • Cressida de Nova

            No it’s not. You are going to have to address your lack of empathy.

          • Anton

            This subthread started when I said I would be willing to have my photo used in the media if I were lying injured in the incident!

    • Inspector General

      One agrees with you. It is not appropriate. It’s not as if the tragic subject needed any more punch behind it.

  • Inspector General

    If a man hates another man, he will kill him. If a man really, really hates another man, he will kill his young and watch him grieve.

  • Inspector General

    Jesus hasn’t gone to Manchester. Instead, he is there in heaven, now, with the children. Heaven holds a special place for children who arrive there. But not muslim ones. They go somewhere else.

    If you think that’s rough on Allah’s young dead, remember this. The bomber was once a child. A muslim child. With a Koran.

    • Martin

      IG

      Why would the children be in Heaven? Are they not sinners?

      • Inspector General

        No they are not. Fast-tracked they would be, Martin. Especially the 8 year old girl. Such a sweet looking thing, murdered by Allah. Hence the Inspector’s steely determination for vengeance and prevention (see next thread).

        If anyone’s heavenly destiny is in question, it is ours. In your book, our record of sin grows by the day…although the Higher Understanding has it that merely being alive is no sin. It seems to be getting to be an achievement in British cities these days…

        • Martin

          IG

          But God looks on the heart and to His eyes that eight year old is befouled with sin.

          My sin is paid for, but what about yours.

          • Inspector General

            It’s desperately sad that you can come out with a phrase ‘befouled with sin’ under the circumstances. Did you know girls of that age would give a starving man their lunch money if requested of them. Would you?

            You are a Christian. You say you are, and no one disagrees. Whereas this man before you has been told to leave the fold by many here. He’s not Christian enough for their tastes.

          • Martin

            IG

            So what has ‘giving their lunch money’ got to do with anything?

            The Bible is quite clear:

            as it is written:
            None is righteous, no, not one;
            no one understands;
            no one seeks for God.
            All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
            no one does good,
            not even one.
            Their throat is an open grave;
            they use their tongues to deceive.
            The venom of asps is under their lips.
            Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.
            Their feet are swift to shed blood;
            in their paths are ruin and misery,
            and the way of peace they have not known.
            There is no fear of God before their eyes.
            (Romans 3:10-18 [ESV])

            And that includes the new born, let alone an eight year old girl.

            Being a Christian isn’t something you do, it is something God does to you. It is God that causes a person to be born again, not something they choose.

          • Inspector General

            Think whomever penned that had a run in with Arabs. And of course, those people eventually came up with Islam.

            Difficult to imagine an 8 year old girl who’s mouth is full of curses and bitterness, even Arab ones, but if you can…

          • Martin

            IG

            Its author is God, and He knows the human heart. I’ve had a daughter and a granddaughter, so I do know they reflect the nature of their master, Satan at eight or younger.

          • Inspector General

            Do you know, Martin. One finds it difficult to tell your faith from your humour. (Cranmer, do something, quick…)

          • Martin

            IG

            There was no humour there.

          • Zach V. Roretz

            Okay, and there is no free will, everything is predetermined. Like being vessels of the meme gene.

          • Martin

            Zach

            They’ve surrendered their free will to their sin, they receive the wages of sin. God is merciful to those He chooses.

  • David

    Saint Augustine of Hippo said, “hope has two beautiful daughters, courage and anger”.
    We need courage to recognise that things cannot stay the same and anger to change them. Liberal handwringing offers no hope. Recognise reality and act boldly !

    • Chefofsinners

      What exactly do you suggest?

      • Inspector General

        Conspiracy to commit terrorism to be a capital offence. Outside of the EU, we can do that now.

        • Chefofsinners

          Death penalty for people who blow themselves up?

          • Inspector General

            You can’t do much about the lone terrorist. But this, there’s multi input here. If one of the chain, just one, had got cold feet about having a rope put about his neck and turned Queens Evidence, then 21 innocents would be having their tea tonight.

          • Chefofsinners

            Men shall call you the Martyr Maker.

          • Inspector General

            As it happens, Islamic martyrs in this context are terrorists who successfully carry out an atrocity. Willing types who are caught before an event and hanged are failures. Failures are no use to Allah.

          • Chefofsinners

            Whether to make friends with them or to hang them?
            I say tomater, you say to martyr. Let’s kill the whole thing off.

          • Chefofsinners

            Thus you will encourage all plotters to become martyrs. You will not take them alive.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Only the Eternal Judge knows how that works . . .

          • bluedog

            Or She of the Higher Understanding…

          • betteroffoutofit

            Sorry – I don’t agree with you about gender in the Deity, or about feminist superiority on earth.

        • Zach V. Roretz

          We do have death penalty. We have just dispensed with the bothersome business of having trials. The police can gun anyone down they deem to be a threat.

          • Inspector General

            Yes. it is a comfort that. A small one though…

      • David

        In very strategic, broad terms, bar Islamic influence, prohibit all services except in English , make Sharia Courts illegal and accept financial loss of prohibiting Sharia compliant finance. That’s for starters – then review annually and ,as necessary adopt more effective measures. I doubt whether democracies are up to this …..

        • Politically__Incorrect

          I would add that anybody who’s been to the ME for dubious purposes should automatically lose their British citizenship. It is not difficult to find actions that can be taken. The difficulty is in finding politicians who don’t pee their pants at the very mention of “Islamophobia” and who will bite the bullet (no pun intended).

          • Chefofsinners

            Losing English citizenship is not simple. No other countries will grant them citizenship, so they have to stay here.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            The process could be made easier. Of course no other country would want them, so why should Britain be the world’s human dustbin? If they like ISIL enough to kill for them let ISIL have them. It has the added advantage that we know where they are and who they are.

          • Chefofsinners

            And how exactly would you transport them to the land of ISIL?

          • Anton

            Parachute.

          • Chefofsinners

            So long as we do not mind foreign countries flying through our airspace and pushing criminals out at random, to land in school playgrounds.

          • Anton

            The ones we deport may consider themselves lucky that we provide them with parachutes…

          • Chefofsinners

            Oh, bodies landing in school playgrounds then. Sounds great.

          • Anton

            Sounds better than deliberately putting weapons in school playgrounds like the Palestinian Muslims do.

          • bluedog

            You’re showing your kindness with that suggestion.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            I wouldn’t I just wouldn’t let them back into this country

          • Chefofsinners

            Today’s bomber has never been away, so far as we know.
            But these people who go to fight for ISIL. When they come back as far as France, even Turkey, do we refuse to take our own citizens? International cooperation over extradition would break down.

          • Politically__Incorrect

            One report I read said he may been to the ME before the attack, though I don’t know for certain. As to those undesirables returning through Europe, they would no longer be British citizens by that time, so barring them from entry to the UK would not be a problem.

          • Chefofsinners

            Barring them from entry to the UK would destroy international cooperation and set back the fight against terrorism. Dumping them on France isn’t the solution. Not unless you want France to stop policing the channel coast and the far end of the tunnel, and revoke the citizenship of its criminals the moment they set foot here.

          • wisestreligion

            I have had a look around and I think I may have found the best place to send jihadis to. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Apparently the only current residents are the British Government Officer and the Deputy Postmaster.

            The cold climate might be handy in cooling their passions. We could enlist our local friends the Argentinians in providing a suitable regime of penal correction. Politicians should take comfort that from down near Antarctica it would be several 5 year Parliaments before they would make it back to Dover to trouble us again.

          • Simon Hutchinson

            if they have gone to support ISI they are de facto citizens of the Islamic state – they can be deported back to IS. When the Caliphate is defeated, then the succeeding authorities, be that the Iraqi or Syrian governments, will try IS members and enact whatever justice their legal systems require. Simple. By supporting our enemies , they automatically cease to be British (rather than English) citizens.

          • Chefofsinners

            No, it is not simple. They cannot be deported back to any country without the agreement of that country. Flights need permission to land. Without it they do not take off.

          • bluedog

            We have a military that is capable of securing an airfield.

          • Chefofsinners

            Small problems with international law and the sovereignty of other countries. Apart from that, how many soldiers’ lives would it be worth to secure that airfield?
            There are too many simplistic solutions being cast about this evening. If it were simple it would already have been done.

          • CliveM

            Agreed.

          • Anton

            No, simply not enough guts in parliament.

          • bluedog

            There is no sovereign power in large parts of the Maghreb. You can do what you choose with the right level of force.

          • Chefofsinners

            Or Australia? I’ve heard this idea somewhere before…

          • Anton

            No no no, they’d soon be beating us at cricket.

          • All those who have come up on MI5’s radar could be deported to the country of their mother tongue or if British then that of their parents’ mother tongue, if they don’t like it somewhere in the middle of the desert with a piece of paper with their name, DOB issued to them and their British passports cancelled. That should keep them occupied for some time.

          • Chefofsinners

            No, you need the agreement of a country before you can deport people there.

          • It’s up to our FM and Home Sec to work hard and get that agreement then isn’t it. This situation cannot go on as it is. If the countries refuse to co-operate we should drop the people whose country refuses them in a place in the Maghreb, the desert if need be and tell them their country has refused to have them back.

          • bluedog

            There’s apparently 3000 on the suspect list, and then there are returning jihadis from Iraq etc. Send them all away. The foreign aid budget gives leverage.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Give ’em a parachute….

          • Anton

            Many have dual nationality.

          • Chefofsinners

            Most do not. Even so, a foreign government is not obliged to take them just because we have decided we don’t want them here.

          • Anton

            Then set up our own Guantanamo on, say, Gruinard.

          • Chefofsinners

            Or a big, secure building with high outer walls and individual lockable rooms. What could we call it?

          • Anton

            Whatever you like, I don’t care.

          • Chefofsinners

            Prism? No. Prislam? Prison! That’s it! Only there weren’t any under Mosaic law…

          • Dominic Stockford

            Maybe if we called it a mosque they might all go there of their own accord?

          • Anton

            Capital punishment is OK by me.

          • bluedog

            Hmmm. Gruinard, you say…

          • Anton

            This is the one good use of our aid budget: bribery.

          • bluedog

            No and no.

          • David

            Totally agree – the winging, cowardly liberal politicians will always talk but never act !

        • Chefofsinners

          ‘Bar Islamic Influence’. How? Shut yourself in the cupboard under the stairs?

          • David

            I sense you seek obstacles not solutions – offering criticism but never possible solutions – the world has many like that, I’ve found.

          • Chefofsinners

            I seek workable solutions rather than the simplistic, jingoistic rhetoric which floods the internet in the aftermath of tragedies like these.

          • CliveM

            That’s not a way to easy popularity.

          • Chefofsinners

            Oh no! Not the upticks. You can take anything, anything, but please, I beg you, without the approval of complete strangers, what would I have left?

          • CliveM

            Here I’ll give you a compensatory one.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Nothing so I’ll give you one too:)

          • bluedog

            The workable solution is called a State of Emergency, granting a re-elected Mrs May the powers to do the things she should have done when Home Secretary.

          • Chefofsinners

            What things?

          • bluedog

            Mrs May’s School of Deportment for young gentlemen of Muslim persuasion.

          • Anton

            Time to reclassify Islam as a political movement.

          • bluedog

            …and the Holy Koran as a criminal manifesto inciting acts of extreme violence.

          • Anton

            Maybe even as Hate speech

          • Anton

            Augustine was a Libyan who migrated to Europe…

          • Chefofsinners

            Did he bring the hippo?

          • Anton

            It was wallowing in the pelagic zone.

          • Chefofsinners

            Surely in the Med, Med, glorious Med?

          • betteroffoutofit

            Yes . . . but he became a Christian; an exemplary one, at that.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Sharia finance is sometimes little more than an attempt to disguise the payment of interest. In such cases the bank or other lending institution should be compelled to publish the true annual rate of interest, thus exposing the hypocrisy.

  • Inspector General

    He’s been named then…

    “Britain has a proud heritage of welcoming refugees”. so we are reminded ad nauseum by church types.

    Well, that’s over then, isn’t it…

    • “Manchester born”

      • Inspector General

        Of Libyan stock. Please don’t do this. You are better than where you are going. You don’t have to go there.

        • Anton

          Quite. Fifth generation Americans in Boston call themselves Irish, after all.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Are you suggesting that they are not loyal to the United States?

          • Chefofsinners

            During the troubles, some of them funded the IRA, and many still seem to think they have a right to have their voice heard. They really ought to make up their minds whether they are Irish, in which case they should go and live there, or are American, in which case they should stop meddling in the internal affairs of a foreign country. Likewise all British citizens. Be British or leave.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Sure they are . . . especially if that loyalty involves cracking down on Brits/English!

          • Anton

            Loyalty *always* depends on the circumstances.

          • Manfarang

            And fealty too.

          • betteroffoutofit

            And the Mafia are . . . well, the Mafia.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Yeah . . . but they’re still as rootless as any other yank. For some reason this un-nourished state seems to make them think they should re-make the world in their own images.

        • Chefofsinners

          “He’s as English as you or I”

          • Royinsouthwest

            I am not English but I am British and I certainly do not regard him or anyone who does not identify with us as British.

          • betteroffoutofit

            No he’s not.

          • David

            In law but not in his soul !

          • Chefofsinners

            Said Linus to Avi.

          • Mrs Proudie of Barchester

            He’s British, yes, but English he is not.

          • Manfarang

            God is an Englishman eh?.
            Reminds me of when in my student days a Turkish student acquaintance of mine asked a Jewish friend, “What do you think of the English?
            I am English my friend replied.

          • Anton

            180 degrees wrong. God is a Jew.

          • Cressida de Nova

            The supreme conceptually creative genius and revolutionary Jew.

          • Anton

            God incarnate, no less.

            Sometimes it causes me to tremble.

          • Cressida de Nova

            Das ist gut !

          • IanCad

            !!!???!!!

          • Anton

            Jesus is God.
            Jesus is a Jew.
            Therefore…

            It’s only one facet of the Trinity and there are others, but it’s still true. Theologians call it the scandal of particularity.

          • IanCad

            God chose the Jews as His people and that out of the Root of Jesse He came in the Person of Jesus Christ to offer salvation for all mankind. In Him we are to become Israel as spiritual descendants of the wayward tribe. God however, is outside of any confinement within any particular kindred, tribe or people.

          • Anton

            Agreed! That’s wrapped up in the mystery of the Trinity.

          • Manfarang

            How then can a relation be represented between God and what is other than God when there is no notion comprising in any respect both of the two, inasmuch as existence is, in our opinion, affirmed of God, may God be exalted, and of what is other than God merely by way of absolute equivocation. There is, in truth, no relation in any respect between God and any of God’s creatures.

            — Maimonides, Moreh Nevuchim

          • Anton

            There is a covenant relation between God and the Israelites according to the Hebrew scriptures. I’m not frightened of disagreeing with Maimonides provided that I’m standing on scripture (although I suspect he meant something else – you quoted him so you might like to check).

          • Manfarang

            Regarding all the anthropomorphic terms that we encounter in Jewish sacred texts such as “Adonai’s rod and staff . . .” or the Creator who “reaches out a hand . . .”? There are thousands of passages like this in the Torah , in the Talmud, in Midrash, and in Jewish liturgy. Maimonides’ response is that these are allegorical passages, designed to ease the transition of the Jewish people from idolatry to monotheism. Even the famous description of man’s creation b’tselem Elohim (in the image of God) is meant metaphorically. God created out of free will and we are granted the ability to reason and a free will of our own, but there is no “family resemblance.”

          • betteroffoutofit

            He’s only British by pretend adoption – certainly not by ethnicity [British Celtic], culture, or religion.

          • Manfarang

            Not a druid eh?

          • betteroffoutofit

            Really, Manfarang. There’s no point in answering a silly gibe like that. Why do you despise and insult your own culture and ethnicity? Or are you, in fact, of different origins?

          • Manfarang

            Very much part of British culture.
            Druid, (Celtic: “Knowing [or Finding] the Oak Tree”), member of the learned class among the ancient Celts. They seem to have frequented oak forests and acted as priests, teachers, and judges. The earliest known records of the Druids come from the 3rd century bce.
            Many forms of modern Druidry are neopagan religions, whereas others are philosophies that are not religious in nature. Originating in Britain during the 18th century, Druidry was originally a cultural movement, only gaining religious or spiritual connotations in the 19th century.

          • betteroffoutofit

            Well that’s a very limited and limiting exposition of Celtic heritage – and contribution to the culture of these islands. Very unfair.

          • Royinsouthwest

            He was British only in a legal sense.

  • IrishNeanderthal

    Your Grace,

    Looking back to your Trump article, how widely would you encourage us it share it? I have, with a Hindu friend in India who has shared it with his group.

    However, looking at the comments on this Federalist article Trump Tells Muslim World To Stop Enabling Terrorism I stopped short of posting it there. With friends in America and from the Middle East I feel that considerable discretion in necessary.

  • Lucius

    “You can blame and curse the Islamist in bitterness and hate, or you can sing a song of joy because there’s a better story to tell.”
    ******************************************************************************************************
    Perhaps, you can do both. No?

    • Dominic Stockford

      The psalmist manages both admirably.

      • Chefofsinners

        Curses the Islamist? I missed that bit.

        • Dominic Stockford

          Curses those who oppose God and seek the destruction of God’s faithful followers. Seems to fit admirably.

          • Chefofsinners

            Yes. There is a lot of leaving-the-judgment-to-God isn’t there?

  • magnolia

    Let us remember to keep in our prayers all those suffering life threatening injuries in hospital, that they should be healed, either through a swift believer’s release into the loving arms of the Almighty in the next life, or to full healing and Christian usefulness and fulfilment in this one.

    • Anton

      Amen!

  • “The stars shine only in darkness,
    and in your need. I give my peace.”

  • Chefofsinners

    Workable suggestions are in short supply tonight. Actions that could increase our security are to:
    Recognise that moderate Muslims are our allies in this fight and seek to work with them rather than blame them.
    Extricate ourselves rapidly from the EU and ECHR so that we can easily deport extremist preachers if they are not UK citizens.
    Massive funding increase for security services.
    Allow monitoring and recording of all internet traffic. Government blocking of websites that allow extremists to use them. Yes, including Facebook and Twitter until they sort themselves out.
    Strict immigration vetting. Moratorium on asylum seekers and refugees. Employ enough border guards to actually guard our borders.
    Security service personnel to attend and record all services at mosques. Register of attendees to be kept.
    And it probably is time to introduce national identity cards.
    Sounds like a police state? Sounds like a state where fewer children are slaughtered.

    • bluedog

      Sounds like a State of Emergency.

      • Sarky

        That’s because it is.

    • Manfarang

      Id cards don’t stop terrorism. Every Thai is required to carry an Id card and foreigners a passport but there was a bomb explosion at a hospital in Bangkok last Monday. No one was killed but a number of people were injured. In the deep south of Thailand it was the kind of heavy handed measures you talk about that started the current problems.

      • Chefofsinners

        No, ID cards don’t stop terrorism entirely. They can be part of a solution is all I’m saying.

    • IanCad

      A complete over-reaction. Many and plenty are the laws already on the books. We need no more.

      • Anton

        We certainly need to enforce those we currently have. Plus ONE more: designate Islam as a subversive political movement.

        • IanCad

          Yes! We need to crack the whip using what we already have. However, unless a Muslim equivalent of the Papal Bull, “Regnans in Excelsis” (1570) were pronounced, I can’t see how that faith could – or should – be made illegal.

          • Maalaistollo

            The problem is that it’s not just a religion, it is a political and military movement. Now, if it was so designated officially, it could be controlled more effectively and burkas would be treated as political uniforms, like black shirts, subject to prohibition under, I think, the Public Order Act 1936. That would stir things up a bit and would, I fear, provide too much reality for the populace to bear.

      • Chefofsinners

        So what would you do? Which laws are we not enforcing?

        • IanCad

          To take today’s (24th) post as an example. Those merry men waving banners inciting murder should be charged with such. Those others on the march alongside their more bloodthirsty brothers should be charged with the same. The maximum penalties should be applied and deportation to follow for those not native born.
          The message will get out. This nonsense must stop.

  • Ivan M

    Abedi, the mass murderer, is descended of Libyans who fled Gaddafi. Nonetheless he had no gratitude towards the UK, for having participated in the butchery that killed Gaddafi and turned Libya into a wasteland. It is clear to me, that when it comes to Muslims, the wiser course is to keep them off your shores, no matter how much they claim to love freedom.

  • [By the way “The Holiday Inn nearest to Manchester Arena have taken dozens of kids who have been separated from their parents” was not true.]

  • Hi

    Amongst the carnage the people of Manchester responded with charity and determination in response to this terrorist crime . Let us not forget that 22 children murdered and 59 injured in a brutal way. Mothers and fathers mourning and burying their children . Sisters without brothers and brothers without sisters, uncles, nieces, nephews, cousins , grandparents . Friends departed. Thousands injured by the psychological witness of such an atrocity. The country stunned and in shock. Theodicy can wait a day or two, but may God be with them, us and everyone .

    “May the Almighty comfort us among the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem.”

    • Politically__Incorrect

      There are indeed many heartbroken families in Manchester today. It is good they have been shown compassion and kindness. They certainly need it. For the rest of us, let us not feel too comforted though in case we become anaesthetised to the horror of what is happening in this country. Fear isn’t always a bad thing. Sometimes it keeps people alive.

      • Hi

        I was quoting a prayer of greeting and farewell when we sit shiva, the period of mourning after a person dies.

        Fear is an emotion like any other emotion too much and it’s not healthy . I understand fear and I know fear, I’m fearful of a lot of things. However I don’t want it to consume or dominate me. Otherwise terrorism / ISIS will have won. In my Hebrew Bible , I find many passages of comfort and in my liturgy.

    • IrishNeanderthal

      I looked up the blessing that Hannah has put here, and for the benefit of Cranmer followers, here is what I found, mainly from Shiva (Judaism) – Wikipedia

      The blessing is recited when one leaves a house observing seven (Hebrew shiv‘ah = seven) days of mourning. It is considered a great mitzvah (literally “commandment” but usually interpreted as “good deed”) of kindness and compassion to pay a home visit (make or pay a shiva call) to the mourners. . . Traditionally, no greetings are exchanged and visitors wait for the mourners to initiate conversation, or remain silent if the mourners do not do so, out of respect for their bereavement. Once engaged in conversation by the mourners, it is appropriate for visitors to talk about the deceased, sharing stories of their life. Some mourners use the shiva as a distraction from their loss, other mourners prefer to openly experience their grief together with friends and family.

      I feel that here we should also observe a period of dignified restraint. Jokes about Augustine/Hippo (or the usual axe grinding) are not really appropriate, though one may seriously discuss the issues involved, without making it an opportunity to exercise one’s wit.

  • michaelkx

    what this country need is JESUS. He came to show a better way, love and forgiveness, and peace. Some will say it is the fault of religion, but the ones who do such things as what happened in Manchester it is not a religion it is a political system that purports to be a religion. Jesus said follow me, he never condemned anyone, or killed anyone because they did not do as he said. We the Christians in this country need to stand up and say so. Yes you will have some who will say Christians are hypocrites, but we do not bomb and kill to get are way, as some do. They who do want it seems to dominate the world and forces the people to do what they say, and think.

    • len

      The people of Europe have been educated into disbelief of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.The people of Europe feel they have no need or desire for Jesus Christ.
      It is only as this world get darker(as it is doing) that people will turn to Jesus Christ.Some will curse God for what is happening in the World others, will turn to Christ.
      Christians must be ‘salt and light’ to prevent the corruption which is permeating our society.

  • len

    Abedi was ‘known to the security services.’
    Exactly how many more potential mass murderers are’ known to the security services?.’
    Surely these people who have gone to Iraq and Syria to murder with IS need to be isolated from society.This is not a ‘politically correct thing to suggest but where exactly is’ political correctness’ getting the victims of these attacks.
    So how many more attacks will Europe have to suffer, how many more victims dead or disfigured?

    It will be said that most Muslims are’ peaceful law abiding people’, which is probably true but how will this affect what is happening within Europe?

    • Anton

      It is up to the government to decide what action to take on information known to the security services.

      • len

        The Government has had plenty of time to make decisions.What more information do they need?

        • Anton

          None. I’m saying blame the government, not the security services!

          • len

            One would hope they worked together?
            Possibly that is part of the problem?.

  • Dominic Stockford

    XIII. OF WORKS BEFORE JUSTIFICATION

    WORKS done before the grace of Christ, and the Inspiration of his Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School-authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea rather, for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.

  • bockerglory

    Whether or not the bomber was a real “Muslim” or not, he identifed as Muslim. Islam is attracting evil and producing “bad fruit”. Jesus warned that there would be false teachers and we would know by their bad fruit. Mohammed is a false teacher. Many Muslims will feel exasperated – “No please don’t let it be another Muslim”. I hear & feel their despair.

    So I will pray for Jesus to comfort the victims and I will also pray for Jesus to turn millions of Muslims to read the Gospels & turn their backs on Mohammed, the Quran and Hadith.

    Islam = polygamy, dowries, arranged marriages, death for apostates, FGM, half capital/ownership rights for women, enforced sex segregation, sex with slaves = BAD FAMILIES = BAD FRUIT = SATAN

    • Chefofsinners

      FGM is not required by Islam. It is a cultural practice.

      • bockerglory

        I know that. The point is that many cultures practice polygamy and mutilation etc. It is all bad fruit. To break Islam you need to ban dowries, FGM, full face veil, arranged marriages, Sharia inheritance laws, animal sacrifice. This would massively reduce the impact of division and polygamy exacerbates interbreeding where there are co-sanguinous marriage.

        And the beauty of it all is that many backward cultures practise some of the above so you are not picking on Islam.

  • Brilliant article.

    Worth noting that in the passage quoted, Jesus comes as the one being served, He associates with the victim.

    Jesus came to Manchester and compassionate people served Him.

    • Martin

      There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
      (Luke 13:1-5 [ESV])