Benjamin Netanyahu2
Democracy

Benjamin Netanyahu promises legitimacy, peace and security

 

The Archbishop of Canterbury made a pronouncement last year which was somewhat unusual in modern Anglican geo-political quibbling and hedging. The statement is still on the Lambeth Palace website, and it makes plain that Justin Welby “fully accepts that Israel has the same legitimate rights to peace and security as any other state and to self-defence within humanitarian law when faced with an external threat”.

The people of Israel have voted to guard those rights. The reaction from the civilised world to Benjamin Netanyahu’s unexpected victory has been reserved, to put it politely. At the time of writing, it is reported that President Obama, the putative leader of the free and democratic world, has still not phoned Mr Netanyahu to offer his congratulations. The President may have favoured a turn to the left with the itular Zionist Union, led by Yitzhak Herzog and Tzipi Livni, who favour the establishment of a state called Palestine. But in the end the people of Israel chose the right path, if not the religious right path. With indisputably the largest proportion of the popular vote, Likud is set to lead the coalition governing Israel for another four years.

We know that Barack Obama wants a Palestinian state based on pre-1967 borders. He isn’t going to get that for as long as Benjamin Netanayhu is Prime Minister, for whom such a proposal is both “unrealistic” and “indefensible”. Why should Israel barter away her security and entertain a border approximating to the perilous 1949 armistice lines? How would that secure peace or enhance security?

Hamas have said there’s no hope in this life or the next for any Jews living in the ‘occupied territories’. When the State of Israel was declared in 1948, hordes of armed Arabs descended to murder her at birth. The UN plan for partition of the land was accepted by Jews but opposed by five Muslim states who decided to invade and rid the land of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And Egypt would doubtless have invaded again if Israel had not pre-empted their attack in 1967.

While Israel remains surrounded by enemies – having ceded Gaza to Arab control from whence rain thousands of Katyusha rockets – Obama still advocates a ‘peace plan’ which poses an existential threat to the only democracy in the region. There has been no ‘Arab spring’ in Gaza. Where Spring has sprung, there is no sign of a glorious summer of liberty, democracy and religious equality. Syria spawned Hezbollah; Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood; Gaza Hamas; Lebanon a plethora of anti-Israel terrorist groups; and Iran is pledged to wipe Israel “off the map”: the whole of Arabia seems intent on Israel’s destruction. In this context, the Obama ‘peace plan’ is likely to yield genocide on a scale not seen since Auschwitz.

A Zionist is one who believes that the Jews have a legitimate right to a homeland; that Israel is that homeland; and that Jews have a right to live in that country in peace and security. Conservatives are Zionists. Or, rather, true Conservatives are Zionists. As David Cameron reminded us last year in a speech to the Conservative Friends of Israel:

There is something deep in our Party’s DNA that believes in Israel, the right of Israel to exist, the right of Israel to defend itself and that a deal should only happen if it means that Israel is really allowed to have peace within secure borders and real guarantees about its future… The West has to understand that there isn’t an equivalence between a democratically elected Government of Israel, a state of Israel that is a democracy, that’s a member of the United Nations, that has a totally legitimate right to exist and defend itself – there is no equivalence between that and a group like Hamas. When it comes to Hamas we have to be very clear about the Quartet principles, until they recognise the state of Israel, until they put an end to violence and accept previous agreements, they really have to move toward those principles in a big way before they should get any Western money and Western support.

And when asked about the British ‘loons’ and ‘trots’ who seek to boycott Israel and defame her at every turn, he said:

What’s disturbing about it, is it is something that is happening here in the United Kingdom and it’s something that has absolutely no justification because Israel is a democratic country and these Trots as you put it are treating Israel as some sort of pariah state and that is completely wrong. So I have no hesitation in saying yes it may be a bunch of loons but actually what they are doing is profoundly wrong, profoundly damaging and also I think sometimes attacks on Israel can spill over into anti-Semitism, to be frank about it.

The starting point for peace in the Middle East is not the Obama plan: it is not a tit-for-tat Israeli-Arab bartering over land; nor is it dependent on Israeli withdrawal to the arbitrary armistice lines of any previous era. The path to lasting peace is contingent first and foremost upon an unequivocal commitment by the governments of all Arab states that “the Jews have a right to a homeland in Israel and a right to their country”; that Israel has “the same legitimate rights to peace and security as any other state”. When Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Gaza and the Saudi-Salafists of Arabia come to accept that, they must then proceed to eradicate all expressions of Israel-hatred from their cultures and constitutions, and cleanse their lands of the Judeophobes and anti-Semitic extremists conspiring in their midst.

Benjamin Netanyahu understands this. He also understands that it may take some time. He now has another four years to try to secure the peace of Jerusalem, for which we are exhorted to pray (Ps 122:6).

  • Owl

    An excellent summing up of NE reality.

    The leftist lack of reality will, undoubtedly, soon show it’s ugly face.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      By “ugly face” I presume you mean George Galloway?

      Yes, I’m sure the so-called “anti-fascists” will be out peddling their usual anti-Semitism again. The Left have no concept of sovereignty. To them the world is one borderless country, no part of which should be declared as a nation and given its due protection, unless they are Palestinian of course.

      • avi barzel

        Pretty good summary. Short, sweet and to the point.

  • Uncle Brian

    Amen, Your Grace.

  • Doctor Crackles

    Thank God for Israel. Thank God for Netanyahu. Thank God that Britain did at least one thing to further the plan of the Almighty.

  • Anton

    Why do the nations conspire
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    The kings of the earth rise up
    and the rulers band together
    against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
    “Let us break their chains
    and throw off their shackles.”
    The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
    the Lord scoffs at them.
    He rebukes them in his anger
    and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
    “I have installed my king
    on Zion, my holy mountain.”

    – from Psalm 2.

  • Busy Mum

    “……rid the land of the descendents of Abraham and Isaac.”
    Slightly inaccurate – surely it should read “…of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

    • Quite right. Corrected. Bless you.

      • Busy Mum

        :Thankyou 🙂

        • Who are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
          Answers should take account of Romans 2:28-29 & Galatians 3:7, 29.

          • Anton

            And also Romans 11:28-29, which says that as far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account, but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Paul is speaking here about Jews who reject the gospel, so the definition of Jewishness that he is using in this context is not a faith-based one.

          • alternative_perspective

            Agreed, God does not renege on his promises.

          • Busy Mum

            Yes, of course there is neither Greek nor Jew etc etc but we are talking about the descendents of Abraham and Keturah (rather than Sarah) and the descendents of Isaac and Rebekah through Esau (rather than Jacob) who wish to rid the land of the descendents of Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob.

          • Q: “Who are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?”

            A: Us Jews who are B’nei Yisrael (“Children of Israel”)

          • Doctor Crackles

            Sam,

            What about Ephraim?

          • Dude

            You mean the son of Joseph in the Torah, the biblical tribe or the bene Ephraim of India? Could you be a bit more specific in the question and I will try to give an answer.

          • Doctor Crackles

            Thanks for coming back,

            I mean Joseph.

          • Dude ,

            Manasseh and Ephraim were Joseph’s sons and Joseph’s father Jacob (Israel) says that his grandchildren are as if they were his own children in Genesis 48 verse 5. Hence we can talk of them as 2 of the tribes of Israel.

            Does this help?

          • Grouchy Jack

            A biblical scholar now, are we? Or was that cribbed from David or Hannah?

            Btw, what happened to Hannah the other day? She left some good comments then deleted the lot of them and disappeared.

          • Dude

            Whats up with the red grape look and cowboy hat ?

          • Doctor Crackles

            I noticed that. It was almost like she closed her account completely. Very strange.

          • Anton

            Yes, some were in an interaction with me.

          • Hi grumpy Jack

            I have my moments when I think I can’t be bothered to argue . But I’m here now!

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr …. it’s Grouchy Jack.

          • Hi grouchy,

            Sorry. Must have made you grouchy me getting that wrong

          • Grouchy Jack

            That made Grouchy Jack *chuckle* …. which is rare … but don’t take liberties.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr ….

          • Doctor Crackles

            Sam, so what do Jews consider happened to Joseph after the Assyrian exile? Is the remnant absorbed into the Jewish people or scattered among the nations?

          • Good question and I don’t know. I do know that there are tribes in India who claim to be descended from Manasseh and Ephraim and the Sephardic rabbis of Israel accept this and beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) are said to be from the tribe of Dan.

          • avi barzel

            Shmooley (forgot that version?) had an interesting talk with a bright young Karaite recently. He made a number of good arguments about Karaite authenticity and liberties taken by the Perishim/Pharisees and their Oral Torah and the Talmud. My response was that all that puritanism aside, Pharisaic or Rabbinic Judaism was the only variant to get us to this point in history as a distinct people with a distinct faith and now, a reemergent nation state. What happenned to the missing tribes…and the Karaites as well…was that after the destruction of the Temple the Zadokites (Sadducees), they went adrift and assimilated, whereas the Pharisaic Rabbanites restructured Judaism to work under the conditions of the Galut/Exile. Theologically, this significant reality…Jewish continuity…is, IMHO, the strongest evidence of Divine approval for Rabbinic Judaism.

          • Ah dude,

            Absolutely. And the oral Torah and the written Torah are one and you can’t understand one without the other: of course the Rabbis and sages of the Talmud and midrash help illuminate both. As does the work and literature of Rabbis since then, such as rashi, rambam etc.

          • …. or a way of preserving the Jewish people so they will still be here to accept Jesus as the Christ. Something remarkable occurred to preserve the Jews as a distinct people with a faith in the God who revealed Himself to them.

            (Just another perspective).

          • avi barzel

            This would make sense if you didn’t also hold that the distinction between Jew and Gentile has been eliminated by what you consider as a new covenant.

          • A spiritual People of God and not a nation state, Avi. However, Christians also believe the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah before His return. Just how this will all happen is not clear but it follows the Jews have to exist as a distinct people/faith. Certainly, the story of the survival of Judaism, which has preserved the Jewish people, is a remarkable one that points to God’s work.

          • avi barzel

            Not sure what you mean by a “spiritual” people. Jewishness is a Covenant involving human behaviour and a physical Jewish nation state is both a Divine promise and a commandment. It’s these seemingly materialistic aspects which grate on the world’s nerves.

            The converse of your belief is the notion that the best Christians, who have been left adrift by their societies and institutions, including their Churches, facing a hostile world sliding into barbarism and idolatry, will join Israel, the Jewish people. What fuels that notion among many, is the unprecedented number of Orthodox conversions not by seculars seeking marriage, but by once-observant Christians.

            There is still time for you and yours, Jack 😉

          • It refers to a people who are joined in faith with Jesus Christ and with one another regardless of all earthly distinctions. The alternative to the one you offer is that all people become united with Christ through the Roman Catholic Church.

            Let Jack know when you and your family are ready, Avi.

          • avi barzel

            Ha! A stand-off at the OK Corral, Jack. And all I have to do is to wait for our Proddie friends to see your comment and make popcorn and wince as they to pile into the Catholic issue.

          • SAUSA

            Avi I am going to presume by your name you are Jewish. If not, stop reading as this will not make sense to you.

            I totally object to evangelizing goyim to become Jewish. Firstly it is not necessary. According to Torah, anyone who lives a righteous life has equal share in whatever blessing might be given to such a person. If there is a life after death, they have a share there as well. Noah for example was a Gentile. By his behavior HaShem saw he was worthy to be saved, he and his family. Perhaps the story of the flood is a myth, but the message is clear. Myth or not the message rings true.

            Secondly drawing distinctions between people always leaves someone a bit “put down”, no matter how well one tries to explain the other side.

            And yes Catholics mount on a plethora of other behaviors in the practice of their religion. Behaviors even Christians call idolatrous, but so what? Again, it is what they are taught, that is how they might have been raised, and that is what they believe. Leave them be. If what they believe makes them better people, don’t take it away from them.

            What matters most is Tikkun Olam (Repairing of the World) and that can be done even by an Athiest.

          • Hi sausa,

            I don’t think evangelizing goyim to become Jewish is Avi’s Hashkafa….

          • SAUSA

            That is indeed good to know. The last line of his post “…there is still time….” is what raised my concern. Perhaps it was in jest.

          • avi barzel

            Partially in jest, as my post below explains. Jack, with whom I cross swords often, but who is a good egg as they say, is a prime candidate for a friendly invite, as quite a few fellows here would be.

          • Lol …. you’ve been “informed” about how to behave.

          • avi barzel

            Gently and courteously, though. Wait til the Proddies here pile into your Papist claims! :-p

          • SAUSA

            About the only thing I think Catholics have in common with Jews is GUILT. LOL

          • avi barzel

            Yes and no, Miss Hannah. My position has (to borrow a term from the Obamamessiah) “evolved.” Not exactly evangelizing, as Christians and Muslims go about it rather indiscriminately and in a wholesale fashion, but in a gentle, selective and strictly one-on-one fashion and within what is allowed in halakhah. See my rationale in my response to Mr Sausa below.

          • Hi Avi

            Thanks for explaining … I’m also concerned with bringing those who are of our community who have gone astray back into our fold, such as : secular , off the path or messianic Jews. I appreciate that this isn’t conversion (accepting that not all messianic Jews are Jewish according to halakhah, so they would need to convert) as it is a matter of teshuva or return in the Hebrew. I guess that’s a form of evangelism as is by showing the world our actions we show God’s glory (or lagoyim?).

            I go with the well cool in the dictum :kocha de heter adif ,”the power of leniency is greater” . So I go with stuff such as the late chief rabbi , Ben-Zion Meir Hai Uziel. I think we should accept converts who wish to marry and to welcome with big hugs those who seriously wish to convert because they want to join the Jewish family. As well as those in Israel, who thanks to law of return are allowed to emigrate but by halakhah aren’t Jewish, but wish to be so. I’m not sure about having a missionary position like Christians do, but perhaps just talking about one’s faith is enough.

            Also I think there has to be a huge love and encouragement of the convert .I once had a Hasidic guy saying that dad was separated from mum in gan eden because he was a convert and secular Jews have a hard time with converts because to them it’s all race and culture, bagels and Oy veys, even though Jews are a nation and have different cultures, but only one God, as one of the midrash says ‘The Lord loves the righteous; the Lord protects converts. The Holy Blessed One said, ‘I love those who love Me.’ This is as it says, ‘I honor those that honour Me ….They love Me and so I also love them’.

            There’s another midrash which goes like this :

            “Dearer to God than all of the Israelites who stood at Mount Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and quaking mountain, and had they not heard the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than such a person?”.

          • avi barzel

            Greetings, Mr Sousa. I’m aware of the mainstream position on Jewish proselytizing. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that it’s a product of oppression, where Jews in Muslim and Christian societies faced dangers in even admitting proselytes who approached them. Before the emergence of Christianity and Islam there were massive conversions of Greeks and Romans and proselytizing, or at least a welcoming attitude must have taken place. There were certainly Kahal ordinances against proselytizing later on, since the Middle Ages, but these were solely connected to the hostility against Jews and were based on the halakhic prohibition of endangering individuals and communities, not on proselytizing per se.

            The bottom line for me, though, is halakhah and current realities. While it may have been a minhag to make conversion difficult, the times have changed, the raw danger has passed and…in my opinion, I should stress…we are no longer bound by the medieval ordinances based on avoiding danger and should take on a more welcoming and assertive attitude, especially in regards to the growing number of non-Jews who want membership in our family.

            At this time the only Orthodox branch which proselytizes actively (although not aggressively) are the adherents to the Dor Deah movement in the Yemenite synagogues in Israel. We also know that Avraham Avinu sought converts, that the Shulkhan Arukh does not prohibit proselytizing and the Talmud mentions it at least in one place, namely the Gemarah in Pesahim 87b which states that, (Rabbi Elazar said): [God] exiled Yisrael among the nations in order that converts will added onto them – “u’zratiha li ba’aretz” …We learn from “v’rihamti et lo ruhamah v’omarti l’lo ami ami atah”: people that were not My nation will become my nation.

            Now, I imagine what prompted your post to me was my semi-jocular “invitation” to Jack…and to all my friends here. Yes, I accept their adherence to their faith as valid and I don’t imagine they are interested in upending their worldviews, their lives and connections, but at the same time I see nothing wrong in offering a gentle invitation to worthwhile people. One never knows. Do consult a rabbi, of course, but consider the possibility that times and circumstances have changed and that approach should change as well.

          • Hah, so you consider Happy Jack might be a worthwhile person. Here’s what Jack says, if Carl thinks about it then Jack will.

          • SAUSA

            I am aware of our history and why we stopped proselytizing. But I am one who holds to the notion of leaving people be where they are. If they ask me what it is like to be a Jew, or what do Jews Believe (if one could possibly answer that question in a week), I try my best to give them an answer.

            I happen to have been adopted as an infant into a RCC home. I also am a survivor of Sexual Abuse by a Priest. I am well aware of the teachings of the RCC. I left the RCC at the age of 20 and sought out the religion of my birth-mother whom I was fortunate to locate. We were able to spend 17 years in close communication until her passing. I did not have to go through conversion as I had necessary documentation of my mother’s family and was circumcised at birth. I live a conservative observant Jewish lifestyle – for the most part. My wife who was not born Jewish but has Jewish blood in her (per 23&Me) went through proper conversion including Mikvah and Beit Din, so I am aware of the tremendous effort it takes to go through conversion. As my wife takes on new Mitzvot we become more and more observant. She is also learning Hebrew which is a blessing for us both.

            In our city the Rabbinical Association has setup a class for those who want to know more and possibly go through conversion. The class runs for roughly 9 months and is taught by all of the Rabbi’s in our city. Chabad abstains as would be expected. Those in the class are given the opportunity to hear from and attend services from Reform to Orthodox. Conversions are also performed according to the chose of the individual

          • avi barzel

            Thank you for sharing your touching and powerful story, Sausa. Welcome home and barukh ha Shem.

            I imagine that Chabad abstains from the program because of the options of Conservative and Reform…although being reformists with questionable doctrines and beliefs themeselves, Chabadniks shouldn’t be too haughty. But ’nuff on that.

            I appreciate your position. It’s a measure of my personal disinterest if not reluctance in proselytizing that I won’t even harangue you, a Jew, about going Orthodox in your and your wife’s journey. I think our well-meaning kiruv organizations are doing enough damage as is…and I couldn’t sell a pail of water to a fellow with burning trousers. However, I’m not opposed to kiruv–“internal proselytizing”–nor to efforts to bring in worthy Gentiles who can be relied on to observe halakhah and to strengthen our communities because that is not only halakhically permissible, but appears to be a mitzvah as well.

          • SAUSA

            I do not believe my wife and I will ever be “Orthodox”. Much will depend upon where we end up living in S. Africa next year. The Jews of S. Africa are a difficult bunch. Even for me it was a bit intimidating. Yet one must understand what they are going through in the country. Oppression makes people very defensive even when there is nothing to be defensive about. My wife, who is from S. Africa, made the decision to convert because as she put it “The Children of Israel have remained as was promised.” When she realized what Israel has gone through and yet we still remain, she said it was like seeing the hand of HaShem for the first time. Not some promise for the future heaven but a reality in her lifetime. I was impressed by her words, and she is the one who is actually calling me to be more observant. For that reason I believe HaShem had His hand in bringing her into my life. And I totally agree with you on bringing worthy Gentiles into the covenant. But for me, they must initiate the encounter. Converts it seems usually are the most observant in say a Conservative or Reform community. Everything is new, everything is fresh and unlike other religions where one needs a “holy man” to perform rituals for your blessing, my wife realized that she is the one responsible to light the candles, she makes the challah (my recipes), she ensures I lay teffilin, etc. She does that and she becomes a “light to the nations”. Strange how it works but Judaism is a way of living, more than a religion. And for that I am very grateful.

          • avi barzel

            Ha! If you lay on tefillin and head out to SA, you two are on your way to becoming Orthodox by default. My wife is a convert, became one on her own before we met, and I was totally secular. She fixed me real fast. We are in the dati leumi, centrist or religious Zionist spot of the spectrum.

            My shul has a big cliqueof S Africans, and they are Orthodox, even those who are not very observant. They attend every shabbat, respect the tradition and observant or not, they wouldn’t dream of being anything but Modern Orthodox. If you wind up there, in SA, you’ll find that Orthodox is very much like observant Conservatism and is strongly Zionist and politically conservative, whereas their Conservative denominations are swinging to the lib-left as in North America. This is one of tge reasons Orthodoxy is growing; the other denominations are drifting away to trendy liberalism and the kids are assimilating and intermareying. The landscape has changed quite a bit.

          • alternative_perspective

            They are being identified and are returning in line with Biblical prophecy.

          • And also take into account Romans 9-11.

          • Who then? Don’t keep us all in suspense.

          • Christians are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
            Check out Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:29 and Philippians 3:3.
            There is only one people of God, believing Jews and believing Gentiles together as one people. The wall of separation is taken away in Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).

  • Anton

    Your Grace,

    You write: “Why should Israel barter away her security…”

    As a matter of accuracy, the nation of Israel is referred to throughout the Old Testament as a male entity, because the nation is descended form the man Jacob/Israel. It is Jerusalem that is referred to in the feminine.

  • The path to lasting peace is contingent first and foremost upon an unequivocal commitment by the governments of all Arab states that “the Jews have a right to a homeland in Israel and a right to their country”; that Israel has “the same legitimate rights to peace and security as any other state”. When Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Gaza and the Saudi-Salafists of Arabia come to accept that, they must then proceed to eradicate all expressions of Israel-hatred from their cultures and constitutions, and cleanse their lands of the Judeophobes and anti-Semitic extremists conspiring in their midst.

    Such a commitment would have to be accompanied by a similar commitment by Israel to cease its colonization of various parts of Palestine and its acceptance of the rights of the Palestinians to live peacefully within the borders of their own state. Israel would also have to eradicate all expressions of anti-Arab hatred and cleanse the land of Arabophobic (doncha love all these silly made-up words ending in -phobic?) extremists, possibly starting with Netanyahu.
    .
    Of course, none of these things are remotely likely to happen until the Gospel comes to both Israel and the Arab countries. When I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that’s what I’m praying for. Impossible? ‘Is anything too hard for the LORD?’ (Genesis 18:14).

    • Anton

      So-called Palestine was promised to, ie reserved for, the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob/Israel forever (the promises in Genesis are summarised in Psalm 105:8-11, for instance). Whether or not the covenant with Abraham was given a wider spiritual interpretation as well at the Cross, its original meaning was not cancelled or else God would be breaking his covenant with Abraham.

      The Jews were exiled for 70 years for idolatry and for 1800 years for (clearly) rejecting Jesus as Messiah, but God keeps his promises and they are back. Ezekiel (36:24-26) speaks of a return in unbelief followed by a spiritual cleansing. The latter is needed but the Jews are entitled to jurisdiction, ie political control, in a region roughly matching British Mandatory Palestine, plus a little land to the north and north-east and minus Eilat and the southernmost Negev.

      Of course, political control does not justify arbitrary maltreatment of the Arabs living there. But nothing would please the Jews better than if the Arabs were to root out the men of violence in their own community.

      • Doctor Crackles

        In my understanding the Arabs are blessed because of Ismael, but cursed because of Esau.

        • The bible – and the different contested Jewish and Christian interpretations of it – should not be used as a basis for seeking a political settlement in Israel. Islam believes the Jews fabricated the biblical accounts of Esau and Ishmael and have deprived them of their God given birth right and destiny through deception. The sociological, religious, political and economic realities are disputed enough without throwing another layer of irresolvable confusion over them.

          Israel exists as a nation state and is entitled to decide how it can best protect itself from those wishing to destroy it. It needs to secure greater international support in this search for internal, long term peace and security. The Palestinians exist too, however they came to live the disputed areas, and commitments have been given that they will have their own state.

          • Anton

            Any Christian should give primacy to the Bible. But not necessarily state publicly that he is basing his policy on it.

          • Primacy to the bible teachings about grace, faith and salvation is one thing. Claiming authority to infallibly interpret and apply it in respect of a political solution to the Middle East is quite another.

          • Anton

            Who is doing that?

          • Busy Mum

            The Pope is the only person who would!

          • Anton

            O that he would!

          • Busy Mum

            He is welcome to say what he thinks but I would never assume, unquestioningly, that he is right.

          • And nor would you be obliged to ….

          • Busy Mum

            But many people do, without even having been obliged to… that’s a mystery to me…

          • Unfortunately, many ‘liberal-progressive’ Catholics ignore the Office of the Pope than listen to him.

          • Busy Mum

            Even non-catholics seem to think he is superior to them in some way….

          • Hmmm …. not superior as a man but in his office as Pope he is somewhat special and people should pay him considered attention – most especially when he uses the full authority of the position.

          • Busy Mum

            Authority? From where? As a good protestant and as a mother whose children are just home from school, we’ll leave it at that!

          • Probably wise as it would be a distraction. Nice chatting with you though.

          • Busy Mum

            🙂

          • Catholics don’t go in for pseudo-Biblical guesswork and the Pope has stated he wants a just settlement that enables Palestinians to have their own state and to live peacefully alongside the state of Israel.

          • Anton

            But the Palestinians have no intention of accepting an Israeli State. Yasser Arafat said so in Arabic speeches countless times, including after Oslo. Hamas’ charter says the same. You cannot live in peace with somebody who is trying to destroy you.

          • avi barzel

            Sounds like pseudo-eschatological, post-Messianic wish-list. Lions lying down with sheep and all that. Yes that would be nice. The current reality is quite different and carving out another terror state, this one in the heart of Israel, will not make peace break out. What did His Holiness miss about the lesson s from Gaza and the PA?

          • Grouchy Jack

            You would listen anyway … being a non-conformist and all.

          • Anton

            He is a significant politician so I would be delighted if he gave primacy to the Bible.

          • The Catholic Church is pretty clear about ‘end time prophecy’ and pseudo-Biblical guesswork.

            “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

            ‘Dispensationalist’ ideas and interests have had a significant influence on foreign policy towards Israel and the Middle East, and on how many of these Christians view the Middle East and are staunch allies of Israel for theological, rather than political reasons.

            The Catholic position on Israel is stated in the Catechism: “The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until His recognition by ‘all Israel’, for ‘a hardening has come upon part of Israel’ in their ‘unbelief’ toward Jesus”. The Church, based on Romans 9-11, believes that Israel will somehow come to recognise Christ for who He is. Precisely how this will occur the Church has said nothing.

            Concerning the time of trial or tribulation in the final days, the Church teaches: “Before Christ’s Second Coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth”

            Further: “The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. . . . The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the [end times] judgment. . . .”

            The Catholic Church allows a wide range of interpretive possibilities about prophecy and the book of Revelation, based on the fact that Scripture, inspired by God, often has different, yet complementary, meanings.

          • Well, since you’ve written this: “But not necessarily state publicly that he is basing his policy on it” that might be rather difficult to establish.

          • Well you’ve pretty much done in the above biblical ‘lessons’ now.

          • Doctor Crackles

            The whole mandate as a Jewish state populated with Druze, Arabs, Bedouins, Maronites and whoever else will live will Jews peacefully and will accept Israel as a Jewish state.

          • avi barzel

            Conditional commitments, Jack. Israel lived up to its side of the Oslo agreement, the Arabs..not so much.

            There will be no more, sacrifices, tolerant shrugs, freebies, no more lethal “chances for peace.”

            Besides, there is no governing authority to speak for “Palestinians”! Hamas is a tyrannical terrorist organization and the illegitimate Abbas and his PA a fig leaf for the old PLO. And the two are in conflict, while Al Qaida and ISIS are moving in on the game.

            And Yudah and Shomron belong to Israel. By biblical mandate, by the still valid San Remo agreement, the will of Israelis and the might of the IDF, no matter how you spin it and whatever the opinions of the “international community” of the hour may be.

          • Happy Jack doesn’t pretend to know all the nuances of the politics of Israel and Palestine, Avi. However he doubts the “biblical mandate” argument will cut any ice with Palestinians, who look to another source of divine authority, or their political friends in the West. Besides, this mandate would call for expansion, wouldn’t it?

            Jack prefers to deal with the political realities and not disputed theologies in searching for a solution.

          • avi barzel

            No, the Arabs do not accept the biblical mandate…although a few brave scholars have pounted out that even the Koran recognizes a Jewish state. I prefer to deal with geopolitical realities as well, but theologically accept the survival of the Jews in Christendom and the Islamic world and the creation, survival and success of the modern nation state of Israel as miraculous gifts of Divine Providence.

          • Islam believes your people changed the odd verse here and there to suit yourselves. Jack accepts God has a plan for Jews and, whatever it is, no force can stop it materialising or, indeed, force His hand before the time arrives for its fulfilment.
            Meanwhile, we muddle through and do what we consider moral and right.

            Are you beginning to accept miracles now – apart, that is, from the miracle of creation and God’s Providence?

          • avi barzel

            Islam believes that the entire Torah is a forgery and that the kooky ramblings of their prophet are the true words of their version of God. Can’t do much about that.

            Regarding miracles, as I (evidently unsuccessfully) tried to argue on this topic a number of times, I continue to hold to the classic definition of a God-guided, opportune event manifested through natural, physical laws.

          • Just testing, Avi. Thought you might have “seen the light”.

          • avi barzel

            Plenty of light, real light, in my corner. It’s why I wear shades 😉

      • Do you believe in the Rapture, the seven year Tribulation and a thousand year reign by Christ in Israel too – complete with a Third Temple and sacrifices?

        • Anton

          If by the Rapture you mean pre-tribulation, No. As for the Tribulation, by my understanding it is the second half of that final seven years. Do you not believe that Christ will return bodily to this earth in view of Acts 1:11?

          Time to discuss verses Jack, not labels. Be careful.

          • Of course Jack believes Christ will return in glory.

      • So the biblical mandate is an expansion of Israeli territory and no Palestinian State within those borders you’ve just outlined?

        • Anton

          Yes. Although not by killing peaceable people. It will happen because the Arabs don’t want peace and will continue to get a bloody nose by fighting against the word of God.

      • avi barzel

        A point of disagreement. Apart from that I don’t accept rejection of Jesus as the reason for the Exile (why are we back now?), the mainstream Judaic position is, due to “causeless hatred.” History supports that view, as the factionalism of the Pharisees (Perushim)/Rabbanites, Sadducees (Zadokites), Zealots, various mystic offshoots (such as proto-Christianity) and secular Romanizers destroyed Jewish unity. The Exile is traditionally seen as a misfortune, but I take (perhaps a heretical position, God-forbid) that we don’t know the mind of God, nor His plans, and that it may have been another necessary stage in our progress through history.

    • Busy Mum

      Having clarified the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…..who exactly are the Palestinians?!

      • Doctor Crackles

        The Palestinians are Arabs, so have a blessing by Ishmael.

        Their right to land exists on the basis of their presence their at the time of Israel’s war of Independence in 1948. How they came to be in the land pre-1948 was mainly due to migration as it was with the Jews. The Arabs peoples were moving within the shrinking Ottoman empire and were later attracted to the Holy Land because of the Jewish presence and the improving economic situation. I doubt there are many Palestinians who have a genuine claim to the land, which may explain why they surrendered it so cheaply. In fact the most legitimate candidates are nomadic Bedouins.

      • Q: who exactly are the Palestinians?!

        A :Arabs who came from Syria and other parts of the ottoman empire: I believe Arafat was Egyptian, despite being the leader of the Palestine liberation organisation.

        • Doctor Crackles

          I agree.

          The problem we have is that there is no desire to analyse the origins and differences of the Arabic peoples of the region.

          I guess invaders are not that interested, but family names may give us some clue.

        • Busy Mum

          Exactly – there isn’t really such a thing – person – as a Palestinian!

          • How about this?
            The people living in Palestine are Palestinians.
            Or are we going to say that no one who can’t trace his lineage back to Caractacus is English?

          • Busy Mum

            Many people living in Britain call themselves British….and think that laying claim to the label somehow legitimises their very unBritish behaviour.

          • Excellent! So ‘Britishness’ depends not on lineage but behaviour?

            ‘For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God’
            (Romans 2:29-29. Read in conjunction with Jeremiah 9:25-26).

          • Busy Mum

            Yes – Scots, Welsh, English – we’re all British aren’t we? But don’t necessarily share lineage….In the same widest sense as the New Testament Jewishness as quoted, being British is an inward identity rather than an outward appearance.

            p.s. with the determined moves to break up the union, I should have said ‘some’ Scots. I guess I should have included some Irish too!

          • Anton

            The Bible calls it not Palestine but ERETZ ISRAEL, the land of Israel. If you are a Christian, why do you prefer the nonbiblical name?

          • The whole world is ‘eretz Israel’ (Genesis 14:19; Romans 4:13), but the inheritance is not to a physical nation but a spiritual one. The land promises were fulfilled in the time of Joshua (Joshua 21:43; 23:14-16) and in the reign of Solomon (1 Kings 4:20-25).
            There is now only one people of God: those who have trusted in Christ for salvation (John 10:16). What Israel needs is exactly the same as what the Arab nations need- the Gospel of Jesus Christ. ‘In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria- a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance’ (Isaiah 19:24-25).

          • Matt Pryor

            Disciple of Rev. Stephen Sizer by any chance?

          • And you? A disciple of John Nelson Darby, by any chance?

          • Matt Pryor

            No idea who that is, sorry.

          • avi barzel

            That’s the way; don’t bite my friend Jack’s hooks and clever lures.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr ….. stick around you might learn something about those pesky Christian Zionists you’re always moaning about.

            Where is Carl when he’s needed?

          • avi barzel

            O, I’ll stick around, Jack, but I won’t stick my bulbous nose into christological debates. And I don’t moan about Christian Zionists; I appreciate the friendship, generosity and help from most of them and oppose the missionizing of a minority.

          • Grouchy Jack

            They’re an eclectic bunch too, Avi. Just watch the ones with the Red Heifer, ’tis all.

          • Anton

            People resort to insults when they run out of arguments…

          • Grouchy Jack

            You think that an insult?

          • Anton

            Kindly respond to my exegesis above of the OT prophets pointing to the modern return of the Jews. You are presently doing your utmost on this thread to rubbish other points of view while stepping carefully round this.

          • Happy Jack will respond.

            The Catholic Church teaches that God has always had only one people throughout history. “This ‘family of God’ is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, ‘already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel . . . . Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time'”

            The Church understand herself as the New Israel (Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:11-12) and the new People of God (1 Pet. 2:9-10), the recipients of the New Covenant given through Christ (Heb. 8:8-13). The Old Covenant was not rejected by Christ, but fulfilled and taken up into the New Covenant; it concluded with the New Covenant and is included in it.

            Based on the OT and NT (way too many passages to cite) Catholic doctrine holds that the Church is intimately related to the Kingdom of God. In her ‘the Kingdom of heaven,’ the ‘Reign of God,’ already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The Kingdom is not yet complete, but began with the Incarnation and will be fully realised at the end of time: The Kingdom is not an earthly reign, but the final triumph of Christ over the power sin and Satan. The Kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows in the hearts of those incorporated into Him, until its full manifestation when He returns.

            What will happen to Israel? Based on Roman’s 9-11, the Church teaches: “The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until His recognition by ‘all Israel’, for ‘a hardening has come upon part of Israel’ in their ‘unbelief’ toward Jesus”. The Church believes that Israel will come to recognise Christ for who He is. Precisely how this will occur the Church has not stated, so people can have different ideas.

            The Church says little about the time of trial or tribulation in the final days. The Church will go through the great trial, but we do not know how long it will last. This will shake the faith of many believers. This persecution will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’, a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. This time of trial will be at the start of the “last days” in the sense of the end of history. the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness and also a time marked by ‘distress’ and the time of evil which does not spare the Church and will usher in the struggles of the last days.

            The Church teaches that there have been many Antichrists, but there will also be the Antichrist who leads a worldwide system of anti-Christian belief. “The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. . . . The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the [end times] judgment. . . .”

          • Anton

            I agree with much of that. Now will you comment on those passages of return from exile which are inconsistent with details of the Jews’ return to the Holy Land from Babylon but consistent with the present return?

          • But why?

          • Anton

            Subject to His Grace’s favour, you are free to say or not say whatever you like here. But don’t expect your view that the Bible should not be used to inform Middle Eastern politics to be taken seriously if you won’t engage with those verses prophesying the present return of the Jews.

          • “But don’t expect your view that the Bible should not be used to inform Middle Eastern politics to be taken seriously if you won’t engage with those verses prophesying the present return of the Jews.”

            Those verses may or may not foretell the establishment of an Israeli State in 1948. Some say they do; some say they do not.

            Jack still maintains fallible interpretations of Scripture about God’s overall plan for human history, especially the particulars of current tensions in the Middle East, should not used to “inform” the actions and decisions of world leaders. The 19th and early 20th century policies of British and American governments appear to have been based on Puritan interpretations of these prophecies.

            Whatever their merit, Israel is now a nation state and has to find a way to resolve its security issues. To use the bible, as some are doing, to justify or encourage the expansion of territory and the reconstruction of the Third Temple would be foolhardy.

          • Hi grouchy

            That was last week :’Shabbat Parah’, the special Shabbat of the red heifer…..

          • carl jacobs

            Carl is at work. He got up late this morning, and had to run a quick errand over lunch. He has about 25 minutes of lunch remaining and has hardly even scratched reviewing this thread.

          • avi barzel

            Oh, oh.

          • Dude

            For some reason, there seems to be 2 Jacks here…. a yellow and blue version. What the blazes ?

          • CliveM

            ROFL

          • avi barzel

            The dude’s in Britain. He turns blue when he runs out of change for his gas fireplace.

          • Anton

            I’ll take him on. He argues by labelling people rather than by looking at the verses. And Martin Marprelate makes assumptions too. Time for a Bible study and see who can and can’t answer whose questions…

            Is the modern State of Israel prophesied in scripture or an accident of history? There are various prophecies of return from exile, all portrayed positively. Many refer to the return from Babylon, but some cannot. Zechariah (8:7-8) promises a future return in a prophecy given after the return from Babylon. (Ezra 5:1 & 6:14 state that Zechariah is prophesying in Jerusalem – not from a place of exile – and Zechariah 1:1 tells us that he was speaking after the exile.) Amos (9:13-15) speaks of a permanent return, which the return from Babylon proved not to be. (Amos’ immediately preceding verses are quoted in Acts 15:13-18 as beginning to come true with Jesus.) The Jews lost all self-governance after the failed uprisings of AD66-73 (in which the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed) and AD132-5 (the bar-Kochba revolt). Many Jews fled before the legions, and
            many more were killed or carried into slavery; some built the Colosseum in Rome. Those who fled the land joined diaspora communities, which maintained Jewish identity in places where law and order were more stable.

            A second return is prophesied by Isaiah (11:11-12), assembling the people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth (not just Babylon). This matches the present return. So does the prophecy of Ezekiel (36:24-26) of a return without commitment to God followed by spiritual cleansing. Today’s Jews have returned to the Holy Land holding mainly secular beliefs (whereas the return from Babylon was led by the godly), and the number of Jewish congregations in the Holy Land who follow Jesus is increasing.

            The return from Babylon is not consistent with any of these prophecies from Zechariah, Amos, Isaiah and Ezekiel, but the modern return is consistent with all of them. Many other passages fall into place if the modern return is looked for in the Bible. For example, Moses warned of the exile of a Jewish
            kingdom in Deuteronomy 28:36, and an exile to all parts of the earth in Deuteronomy 28:64. Because the end of the kingdom led to a local exile, and because the post-apostolic dispersal was not the end of a kingdom, these are distinct events.

            It is understood that in Jesus’ discourse on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21) he mingles prophecies of his return in power with prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in AD70. In that case, we should be alert for
            similar mingling in the words of the Old Testament prophets.

            But really, you need less faith than ever before to believe in the truth of the Bible. It speaks of a world army being sent against the Jews in Jerusalem. today globalisation is a fact and the Jews are back. Let those who have ears to hear, hear.

          • avi barzel

            While I of course disagree with your Christian thesis and predictions, kudos to your impressive scholarship, Anton. While we don’t proselytize by custom, many of us hold that wise and moral people, including Christians like you and many others here, will eventually join us. If you only knew how many “Messianic Christians” assessed the evidence and drew the logical conclusions and are straining the capacity of the North American and Israeli conversion courts nowadays….

          • Anton

            Happy to bat for Zionism!

          • “I’ll take him on.”
            Lol …..
            With fanciful speculations about OT prophecy? And talk of “it is understood”(by who?) and then“mingling” in NT and OT scripture. Jack was taught that in primary school. The bible isn’t an almanac.
            Besides, so what if scripture foretold the return of the Jews in 1948? What next? This is the critical question for a Christian. Are you suggesting a future world army attack on Jerusalem and its possible destruction? When Christ returns will the Jews have converted and accepted Him as their Messiah – or does He return to earth to rule a Jewish Kingdom for a millennia and to restore the Temple and the sacrificial system?
            Let’s see what you can predict about the future.

          • Behave …. Happy Jack deleted this.

          • Anton

            Whoever you are, you avoid detailed engagement with those verses. I claim to have shown that they imply zionism. Knock my arguments down and I’ll respond to your further questions.

          • I’ll have a little go at this.
            Zech. 8:7-8. ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Behold I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; I will bring them back, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.”‘

            Which Jerusalem is being referred to here? ‘The Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children’ (Gal. 4:25)? The one that is described as ‘Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified’ (Rev. 11:8)? Or is it the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21, the ‘Jerusalem above……which is the mother of us all’ (Gal 4:26)?
            .
            You see, I can see only one people of God in the Bible (Matt. 8:11-12;John 10:16; Romans 2:28-29; 10:12; 11:17; Gal. 3:7-9, 26-29; Eph. 2:11-22; Phil. 3:3 etc.). Please look up these references because you have to deal with them if you want to establish your case.
            .
            Also, the Bible only speaks of two ages: the present [evil] age, and the age to come (eg. Matt. 12:32; Luke 20:34). I do not see a third age consisting of a 1,000 year reign of Christ in Jerusalem below. With the coming of Christ, the age to come has broken into the world (Heb. 9:26), and we are members of this new age, which is why we are aliens and pilgrims in this present world (1 Peter 2:9-11).
            .
            Lastly, Paul tells us that just before the Lord returns, unconverted people will be saying, “Peace and safety!” (1 Thes. 5:3). I don’t think they would be saying that if the present Israel was being subjected to the attack described in Zech. 14:1-2.
            .
            This is a very brief and inadequate summary, but this isn’t really the place for an extended treatise; I can expand upon it a little later if anyone wants.

          • Perhaps Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, then?
            Let’s see if Jack can outline the theological themes as best he can. There are variants on these but they do share a core set of opinions.

            It is believed God is pursuing two purposes in history: one involving an earthly people (Israel) and the other, a heavenly people (the Church). ‘Dispensationalists’ believe that when Jesus Christ came, He offered the earthly people, Israel, a physical, earthly kingdom, but that they rejected Him as their Messiah. Jesus then formed a heavenly people, the Church, who are not meant to reign here on earth, but will reign with Him in heaven.

            Nevertheless, God will still fulfill the Old Testament promises to Israel, His earthly people, because, those promises were unconditional and those promises were “put on hold” until the heavenly people were removed from the earth in what is termed the ‘Rapture’. Since Israel has now been re-established as a nation, the removal of the Church via this Rapture can now occur anytime. It will be a secret “snatching up” of all true believers to Heaven, followed by seven years of ‘Tribulation’ and the reign of the Antichrist.

            At the end of this time, Christ will come again to establish an earthly, thousand-year reign, based in Jerusalem, where a new temple, complete with animal sacrifices, will exist.

          • Anton

            Not a single Bible verse quoted Jack. Well done!

          • Well maybe that’s because Jack’s not writing a theological dissertation for a University. Plus, he’s not wanting to get into a fruitless exchange of disputed scriptural verses. He doesn’t need to cite passage and verse to give a broad outline. You go ahead though if you think what Jack has presented in broad outline is a misrepresentation.

          • Not by any chance at all.

          • Not by any chance whatsoever.

          • Uncle Brian

            The whole world is ‘eretz Israel’ (Genesis 14:19; Romans 4:13),

            The expression “eretz Israel” does not occur in Genesis 14.19. “Eretz” on its own just means “land”. Elsewhere in the OT it is found in the context, for instance, of “the land of Egypt” and “the land of Canaan”. Here in Gen 14.19 the full expression is “shamayim va-aretz”, heaven and earth. In the sense of “the whole earth”, as here, the word “eretz” appears repeatedly in the Creation narrative.

            And in Romans 4:13 the Greek word is “kosmos,” meaning “world”. The name “Israel” is not mentioned in this verse. When the expression “the land of Israel” occurs in the NT, as in Matt. 2.20-21, the word for “land” is not “kosmos” but “ge”.

          • avi barzel

            Thanks for the splendid work on that, Brian. I saw the misinterpretation too, but got too lazy to tackle it, besides being reluctant to engage in theological disputes.

          • Yes, perhaps I was not clear. Abraham is described by Melchizedek as possessor of heaven and earth, and this is (presumably) picked up by Paul in Romans 4. But it is not his earthly seed who inherit this but his spiritual seed.

          • avi barzel

            Like anyone from the former Palestine Mandate, including all Israeli Jews, Arab and European Christians, Circasians, Druse and of course, Jordanians?

          • CliveM

            Caractacus wasn’t English.

          • Pubcrawler

            How do you define ‘Palestine’?

    • avi barzel

      How can Israel “colonize” territory which it liberated from Jordanian occupation with a savage ethnic cleansing of Jews and belongs to it by the still-in-force treaty of San Remo? Judea and Samaria…mis-named the West Bank)… are Israeli just as Tel Aviv, Jaffa or Jerusalem.

      And what Israeli expressions of anti-Arab hatred are you going on about? Full civil rights, Arab police, social workers, supreme court judges, embassadors and MKs for example? A bit different official PA antisemitic propaganda in their text books, media, sermons, speeches. And let’s not mention Israel’s neighbours.

      • CliveM

        Avi,

        You’ll be confusing people by giving facts here.

        • avi barzel

          Happens every time. Old “narratives” are much more comforting, includin Martin M’s surreal howler, “…rights of the Palestinians to live peacefully within the borders of their own state.” Like Gaza.

          • Matt Pryor

            If you read Martin’s other comments, he seems to favour supercessionist theology, which I personally find ugly and hateful.

          • Do you subscribe to Dispensationalism, by any chance?
            What do you understand by the term ‘Supercessionalist’?

          • CliveM

            I don’t know what he means but it means nothing to me.

            My head is beginning to spin.

          • You should learn as it tends to colour a lot of the comments on here.

          • Anton

            Stop making assumptions. It is not necessary to be a dispensationalist to read Zionism in the Bible. Most American Christian Zionists are dispensationalists but this is not true in Britain, where the Puritans pioneered a proper understanding of the subject and their Zionist view flowed into the wider British evangelical movement.

            But it is a lazy way to argue to label people you disagree with as supercessionist (ie replacement theologians) or dispensationalists or anything else. Try it with me and you will get the reply “irrelevant; come, let us discuss these verses together.”

          • Hmmm…. and just who labels other Christians Super-Successionists?

          • Anton

            Super-Successionists? You can’t even quote the jargon correctly! Engage with my exegesis about the verses in Ezekiel, Amos, Zechariah and Isaiah elsewhere on this thread and we can start getting somewhere.

          • Happy Jack was playing with you, Anton.

          • Anton

            I don’t believe you. I think you are not able to counter my zionist exegesis of those prophets and you prefer diversionary rhetoric.

          • You are calling Jack a liar?

          • avi barzel

            I hear you…but I see you got Happy Jack going onto a deep and complicated theological debate. Oh, oh.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr …. what’s up Avi?

          • CliveM

            Oh wait on I think I’ve just remembered what sessionist theology is but super?

          • ‘Supercessionism,’ like ‘Replacement Theology,’ is a silly made-up word which shows that you spend too much time reading Prophetic Witness magazine or Jacob Prasch and not enough time reading the Bible.
            .
            I believe in ‘Inclusion Theology:’ ‘For their is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same God is rich to all who call upon Him. For “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”‘ ((Romans 10:12-13).
            .
            Perhaps you will explain to me what is ‘ugly and hateful’ about that?

          • When I speak of, “…rights of the Palestinians to live peacefully within the borders of their own state,” like indeed Gaza, the implied statement is that they do not have the right to live in a warlike fashion in their own state.
            .
            The road to peace is not likely (humanly speaking) to be either swift or easy, but it is not helped by Israel taking over bits of Palestinian territory to build their own settlements.

          • avi barzel

            But that’s the problem. What you and others have arbitrarily decided to call “Palestinian territory” is actually land assigned to a Jewish state by a still-legitimate and recognized agreement, the San Remo declaration. This territory was violently and illegally occupied by Jordan for 19 years and was liberated by Israel. Jordan is a country in a territory also assigned to the Jewish state by San Remo, but was handed over to Arabs and an imported “monarchy” by Britain for political reasons.

            Now, someone may argue that it would be nice for Israel to turn around and hand over its ancestral homeland and strategically vital heartland over to Arabs, perhaps to make them happy and hopefully peaceful, or to please the UN, the Muslim member states, the “international community” and Obama, it is not an inherent right by any definition and it’s ok to oppose this and act accordingly.

          • From the san Remo Declaration:

            The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country


            The boundaries of the Jewish State were to be decided by the Allied Powers, not by an Israel that had no existence at the time. If you place such great confidence in the San Remo Declaration, are you happy to have Israel’s borders decided by Britain, France and the U.S.A.?

          • avi barzel

            The bounderies were decided on, Britain violated the provision. Not sure what your argument is; the dicument does not allow alterations on whim in perpetuity. Britain violated the declaration, so if you want to be technical about it, Jordan shouldn’t or doesn’t exist.

            This is why everyone has their skivvies in a knot over Israel questioning the “two-state” idiocy. If Israel can’t be cajoled or guilt-tripped and doesn’t voluntarily create an Arab state, “Palestine,” on its legal territory and cheerfully and formally cede its rightfully owned territories, but is forced, San Remo has no legitimacy and the Middle East, the Balkans and North Africa might as well have a free-for-all in redrawing borders, creating or swallowing up states.

            So, in case I’veen vague: My position is that Israel must maintain the letter of the agreement because no Jewish government or any other state or international entity has the right to decide territorial changes on behalf of all Jews…in Israel or the diaspora. This means no new Arab states on its territories and no aknowledgement of Jordan’s legitimacy. Theologically, I also hold by the biblical prohibition of surrendering parts or the whole of Eretz Israel. I’m also aware that almost the entire world disagrees with these positions for its own reasons. That’s unfortunate.

  • Personally, I’m glad the elections are over…. in our family we had likudniks in one corner and Yesh Atid supporters in another, with some Sephardi Torah Guardians supporters in another…. none of us supported the Zionist union…. but we ALL support Israel .

    • Anton

      “Support” means in this sense that you love Israel. But only one party was willing to confront the existential threat to Israel posed by Iran; the other party spoke of “Peace, when there is no peace” and grumbled about the economy.

      May God bless Israel.

      • Dude

        I meant whatever our political differences, we are Jews who as a family, whether it’s our Israeli or British side, only want the best for Israel, the people and the land. I think to rephrase :ahavat yisrael, is a better description.

        HaShem bless Israel. Indeed. Amen.

  • Uncle Brian

    Naftali Bennett’s Jewish Home party, which calls for the annexation of a large part of the West Bank, performed poorly in the election, down from 12 seats to 8. Whether or not Netanyahu’s last-minute campaign “promise” to take a harder line with the Palestinians was just the usual barefaced electioneering, it seems to have
    worked.

    2015 results (interim):
    http://bechirot20.gov.il/election/english/kneset20/Pages/results20_eng.aspx

    2013 results:
    https://knesset.gov.il/elections19/eng/list/results_eng.aspx

  • Anton

    A while ago, “Conservative Friends of Israel” were in favour of a two-State “solution”. With friends like that…

    Of course they might have improved since.

    David Cameron, as quoted above: “When it comes to Hamas… until they recognise the state of Israel, until they put an end to violence and accept previous agreements, they really have to move toward those principles in a big way before they should get any Western money….”

    Is it not the case that a large amount of EU money – some of it from Britain – currently goes to Gaza ie Hamas?

  • Johnny Rottenborough

    As anti-Semitism is intrinsic to Islam, it is wholly unrealistic to expect Muslim countries to ‘cleanse their lands’ of anti-Semites but there will be peace of a sort between Israel and its neighbours as long as Israel continues to receive American political, economic and military support. With America set to become a non-white country, just how long that support will last is now a question for the demographers.

    The American Jew Stephen Steinlight asks (under the heading ‘Posing the Sphinx Questions’) whether ‘the emerging multicultural American nation’ is good for the Jews and ‘does it matter to Jews—and for American support for Israel when the Jewish State arguably faces existential peril—that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States?’ No and Yes would seem to be the answers.

    Having moved Heaven and Earth since the nineteenth century to scrap the European bias of American immigration policy, Jews are belatedly realizing they made a boo-boo. Mr Steinlight again: ‘In an America in which people of color form the plurality, most with little or no historical experience with or knowledge of Jews, will Jewish sensitivities continue to enjoy extraordinarily high levels of deference and will Jewish interests continue to receive special protection?’

    The American Jew Earl Raab wrote in 1993: ‘The Census Bureau has just reported that about half of the American population will soon be non-white or non-European. We have tipped beyond the point where a Nazi-Aryan party will be able to prevail in this country.’ I suppose it never occurred to poor old Earl that America would tip beyond the point where it cared about Jews or Israel.

  • Anton

    Obama sent about a dozen spin doctors to work with Netanyahu’s opponents at this election.

    Ha Ha Ha!

    • Uncle Brian

      With a friend like Obama, who needs an enemy!

      • sarky

        Not for much longer! !!!

        • avi barzel

          He’s got plenty of time to severely damage Israel, starting with the UN security council and a demand to start “negotiations” by Israel conceding all (current) Arab demands as a “gesture for peace” and then begging for peace and tolerance when the backburner demands (Golan Heights, the Triangle, the Negev, all of Jerusalwm, a corridor between Gaza and “West Bank” to split Israel ) appear on the table. Rough times coming up.

          • CliveM

            Does he have the political levers however? Ok he can do what he wants at the UN but the rest? It may also damage the chances of a democrat successor.

          • avi barzel

            Congress and the will of a majority of Americans, especially the conservatives and Republicans, will apply the brakes and scuttle anything crazy. Internationally, Israel’s growing ties with India, China and Japan and Canada and Australia’s friendship will mitigate the punishing loss of the EU as a trading partner, if it comes to that, but the damage can be significant. Israel is no longer a pioneer society and a sudden drop in living standards may bring back the left and with it, suicidal concessions to the Arabs.

            PS I don’t think Obama cares what will happen to the Democrats after he leaves the stage. He is primarily a narcissist who takes every world event relating to him personally.

          • CliveM

            Avi

            You won’t lose the EU as a trading partner. Their maybe as hoc boycotts but nothing formal or systematic.

            Indeed the company I work for has just lost a contract to the Israelis to supply the UK Govt. For the EU to boycott Israel formally would entail national agreement between the member States. Won’t happen.

          • avi barzel

            You might yet get the contract back if your gov’t has to make an impression to the bosses in Brussels, but you’re essentially right. Israel’s multilateral trade, which few realize how extensive it is and how cancellations would hurt all participants, would be difficult to cancel.

          • CliveM

            No the contract won’t be cancelled. Not worried about it. You win some, you lose some. Important issue is although things in Gaza got a lot of publicity it didn’t affect Israel’s ability to win the business.

          • avi barzel

            A relative just went through chemotherapy. Over half of the drugs in the “cocktail” were recently developed in Israel. The scanner gizmo the hospital used…at the West Coast of Canada…was co-manufactured by Canadian and Israeli companies. A friend is treated for a heart condition and the main drug is, again, Israeli. Even I didn’t know how common Israeli pharmaceuticals and techno gadgets have become as they appear under various names. Wait for a conspiracy theory about Jews trying to hook the Goyim on medicines and gizmos that work.

          • Uncle Brian

            Avi, is Arutz Sheva a reliable source? Here’s a snippet from something they posted on their website earlier today, under the title Obama Lays Down Punishment on Netanyahu:

            The Obama administration is now carefully weighing whether to agree to a draft resolution at the United Nations Security Council, which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state and Israel’s withdrawal from Judea and Samaria, along with mutually agreed land swaps. The resolution would also oblige Israel to immediately enter into negotiations with the Palestinian Authority prior to a final peace agreement between both sides.

            http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/192870#.VQqwPOl0xjo

          • avi barzel

            Arutz Sheva (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) is my favourite source for quick glimpse of news in Israel. Brief and to the point. Unlike Jerusalem Post, it doesn’t pander to the sensibilities of the Obama admin, the UN or EU. It’s openly and unabashedly National Religious / Religious Zionist in outlook and tends to be more speculative and be less careful of sources, but on the whole, has had fairly good record of credibility on the important issues. It has consistently exposed even Bibi’s admin, especially in its back-sliding on new construction in the Yesha, on access to the Temple and enforcing laws against terrorism and incitement of terrorism.

            On the issue you point out, State has been tinkling “leaks” and threats through its usual channels. The White House, still reeling from Bibi’s speech in Congress is enraged by Likud’s victory, especially after spending a lot of money and expending political capital to prop-up its opponents. Temperamentally, Obama is a petulant weakling and a punk with an overblown assessment of his genius…IMHO, of course…but a nasty and clever one, and no one can predict how badly he will damage Israel while still in office.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            That story – and it is a story – is wrong. The news here in the USA is that Obama will wait. There is talk of Netanyahu retracting his blunder. The USA will consider all options but, any action depends on Bibi and will take some time. I personally don’t think Obama will do anything of the sort. Israel is small potatoes to the USA. I wouldn’t be surprised if the USA didn’t just step back and watch Israel flounder and eventually die from self-inflicted wounds.

      • PaulOfTarsus

        Do you actually believe all the bs put forth here? Israel is small potatoes to the USA. While we would like to see a peaceful settlement to the situation it will not in the least affect the USA one way or the other.
        If you think that of Obama you better hope Hillary Clinton doesn’t get elected.

    • CliveM

      This’ll be what Netanyahu meant by outside interference I take it?

      • avi barzel

        Congress is currently investigating US State Department’s secretive funding of a number of NGOs and an activist political organization, V 15 (i.e., Victory in 2015), t Likud tasked to form an Arab voting block to bring in Labour to power and more Arab nationalist and Communist seats in the Knesset.

        In the last hours if the elections Netanyahu mentioned that Israeli Arabs were being bused and driven to the polling stations by the droves, which may have spurred uncommitted, dissatisfied or lazy Israelis to go and vote. The White House is accusing Netanyahu of racism…but not their own drive to “get out” the Arab vote. Obama is currently seething, having been “humiliated” by the Likud victory and will be punishing Israel, most likely in the UN Security Council. Rough days ahead.

        • CliveM

          I didnt know this.

          You know the Republicans and Democrats send observers to Conservative an a Labour campaign teams respectively during our general elections ( and the favours returned) but that is blatant interference.

          A lame duck a President interfering in another democratic nations election. Impeach I say!

          • avi barzel

            Transnational interfetence will be hard to control, even to define….but, transparancy needs to be established. The supposedly native and humanitarian NGOs in Israel are fighting attempts to publicise their funding by the EU, the Obama administration, leftist trust funds, Saudis, Qataris and Iranians.

          • CliveM

            Saudi, Qataris and Iranians? EU I sort of get, I take it these are Arab NGO’s?

          • avi barzel

            Some are, but most are run and operated or fronted by leftist Israeli Jews. They run the spectrum from reasonable social and humanitarian activists to outright fifth columnists. With a left-leaning supreme court, it’s an upgill battle to legislate funding transparency.

  • avi barzel

    Bless you, Your Grace.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Imagine if Britain were situated in the Middle East, surrounded by hostile Islamic states. There’s an election. Labour, LibDems, and the especially the Greens would be bussing suicide bombers to the polling booths, either to vote or to blow them up, whichever they preferred. The left would effectively hand over the state to its enemies on a platter.

    Most other people would be expecting the Government to follow a similar path to Netanyahu. They would want their nation and their lives defended regardless of opposition from nations and organisation far away. The media have tried to portray this election result some kind right-wing orgy of toughness when it’s actually about survival.

    I pray for Israel’s peace. I also pray that they do not yield to pressure from those whose perspective on Israel is based on fantasy and political mood music. The Palestinians (and other Arab neighbours) have got to accept Israel’s right to exist before anything else can happen.

    • Phil R

      If Britain was surrounded by hostile states we might just have a government with sensible priorities

      • Politically__Incorrect

        Point taken. However, we actually have an enemy living amongst us and we have a government that will not deal with it.

      • sarky

        We are! !!

  • PaulOfTarsus

    Bibi Netanyahu will go down in Jewish history as the man who single-handedly condemned Israel to total destruction. The Free World that has been held at bay by the United States will now unleash true justice on sinful Israel. The clock is ticking down to Armageddon for Israel and it all started when Bibi opened his mouth. If he does not retreat from his position post haste – it is inevitable that Israel will perish.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      “The Free World that has been held at bay ”
      Are you advocating some sort massive international onslaught to destroy Israel?

      • alternative_perspective

        Sounds like Ezekiel coming to pass.

        • PaulOfTarsus

          It may be Ezekiel – who knows. We have been in the eschatological times since the birth of Christ. The end has to come sometime and in someway – this is part of it because it is happening as is Daesh and other calamities

          • Are you the voice of Ezekiel? Happy Jack will show you all due respect from now on.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            WRONG……………… again.
            It seems you alienate people by your twisting their words. Is it the voices in your head or you just don’t get it? Peace.

      • PaulOfTarsus

        No, they will take 21st C political action. It is reported in the news today that the USA may no longer support Israel in the UN. Other European nations will begin to cut ties with Israel as with S American countries. It will begin to hit Israel like a ton of bricks

        • avi barzel

          You’re confusing the US with Obama and his hand-picked fellow community activists. And you’re assuming the EU will do anything beyond the showy and symbolic.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            you are confusing – NO you are WRONG……….. again. Are you a politician that reads others minds and thinks he can clear up their wrong thinking? Speak only for yourself.
            It is not Obama – Israel did the same to GW Bush. Former Pres. Jimmy Carter called corrupt Israeli politicians including Bibi for what they are. They called him an anti-Semite. That is the famous catch phrase for anyone who speaks up against Israel. Well, more of the world’s population is going to fit the overly broad definition. Israel can’t defend it’s inhumane actions then, to all who speak up for Justice anti-Semites. That is basically what Bibi does and it hurts his cause more than helps. He is a wily politician who with a huge amount of pride who will hurt more than help Israel. Israel better hope Hillary Clinton doesn’t get elected President. As the former Sec of State she knows who and what she is dealing with and she won’t pull any punches. Either Israel plays fair or they will be kicked to the curb. Enough is enough.
            It ends here.

          • avi barzel

            You keep on storming out and yet here you are again! Did you leave your keys behind, need to use the loo, want me to call a taxi for you?

          • ROFL!

    • Am yisrael chai!

      • PaulOfTarsus

        will you fight for Israel – or leave that to your brothers to die for you so you can get what you want and live to enjoy it while they are lying in their graves?

        • Hi Paul of Taurus

          The answer is yes and I’d do the same for Britain . Also , Am yisrael chai – the people of Israel live-was shouted out by Rabbi Hardman, an orthodox jewish chaplain, after the first Shabbat service following the the British liberation of the belsen concentration camp. Those survivors who could sang the hatkivah, the poem /song which became Israel’s national anthem. Jews of the middle east, the sephardi, were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries and suffered violent antisemitism (the grand mufti was Hitler’s ally) in the 1940s and 1950s. Two examples of why Jews today support Israel. That is why Israel must and has to exist.

          Never again.

    • avi barzel

      Thank you. We’ll take your sage advice under advisement.

      • PaulOfTarsus

        Do what you like. It makes no difference to me. I am only giving my opinion – which is all any of you are doing. You have no way to influence any outcomes. It is sad Israel again chooses a wrong path. Innocent Israelis will be sacrificed at the altar of Pride, Deceit, and Abomination.

        • avi barzel

          You don’t sound sad; you seem pissed.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            OK – you, of course, are correct in all your thoughts and deeds so, you have to be right this time as well.

            Let’s just say that Bibi Netanyahu and those who think like him have BETRAYED a friend in the USA. We supported Israel and were LIED to. There is no justification for this behavior. Israel will get what it deserves…… again. The stiff-necked people will bring the innocent down along with them……… that is sad……. and sinful. Think what you like. I’ll end it here.

          • avi barzel

            Your clearly evident support for Israel will be sorely missed. As the inimitable Inspector here would say, toodle-pips!

          • PaulOfTarsus

            I will think of your stupid words when Israel is in worse shape than it is today. You are obviously not there so you can be curt – it shows how much you really don’t care for the innocents who will suffer at the hands of ruthless Israeli power mongers like Netanyahu. Good Luck with that.

          • avi barzel

            …and you are back here too! Flattered that you enjoy my company, but really, if you have to go, please, don’t let me hold you back.

          • CliveM

            Avi

            You have been the model of restraint.

          • Translation: feck off.

          • CliveM

            Now, now, I’m sure he doesn’t need to drink to make a pillock of himself, he’s a natural at it.

    • carl jacobs

      So.. If the Arabs slaughter the Jews in Israel, it will be the fault of the Jews?

      • avi barzel

        Or Likud. Buji and Tzipi under direction of the UN and EU…and Obama with his V-15 operatives…could have saved Israel by handing it to the Arabs slice by slice. Or something like that.

      • PaulOfTarsus

        The Israelis who reject a two state agreement will have only themselves to blame for their eventual demise. It is unfortunate, sad really, that they are bringing this upon themselves. If it wasn’t for the Free World Israel would not even exist today. As it is they are like a mad dog that bites the hand that feeds them.

        • “If it wasn’t for the Free World Israel would not even exist today”

          Nonsense. Israel had to fight war of independence first….. and has fought all the defensive wars alone.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Alone! you have to be kidding me. If it wasn’t for the generous gifts the USA gave to Israel they wouldn’t have survived. $3 Billion annually and untold military assistance. Even the last battle they begged the USA to speed up shipment of the rockets they needed for the Iron Dome – that is the USA’s support they would have died without.

          • Where were these “free world” troops in 1948 or 1973? The us and Britain didn’t want to recognise Israel. France used to supply our of date planes and the Israelis still destroyed the ENTIRE Egyptian airforce in a day in 1967.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            OK – I give up. Reread my post and see where I said anything about troops. you have thoughts in your head with no room for an open-minded discussion.
            Let’s just say if it wasn’t for the resettlement of the Jews in Palestine after WWII there would be no Israel today. As it is Israel is a mess. It’s economy is in shambles. Bibi begs for people to immigrate there – the latest was France and Denmark. He pissed off Hollande and Merkel by going to the memorial even against there wishes. He was snubbed by them.
            Bibi has to beg for Jews to come to Israel because those there don’t stay long. Palestinian birth rate far exceeds Israelis so, even if it is one state – Jewish, Moslem and Christian – it will eventually be run by the Palestinians. Either way the Israeli Jews lose.
            I will end it here.

          • “One can not have any honest discussion ”

            You were the guy who came to this forum and started to make ludicrous claims and threats towards Israel…. you even have the fecking gall to deny that Israel is a Jewish state-even Israel’s enemies say so.

            “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about”

            Reads : ” someone disagrees with my assertions. So I’m going off in a huff”.

            “Let’s just say if it wasn’t for the resettlement of the Jews in Palestine after WWII there would be no Israel today.”

            The British , after ww2, actually tried to stop that and sent back numerous ships full of holocaust survivors.

            ” As it is Israel is a mess. It’s economy is in shambles”

            Israel’s economy is doing well , better than Europe and all the parties acknowledged that tackling higher inflation and house prices was crucial. No different to the uk.

            “Bibi begs for people to immigrate there – the latest was France and Denmark. He pissed off Hollande and Merkel by going to the memorial even against there wishes. He was snubbed by them.”

            Jew can see antisemitism , especially in Europe, they see it and don’t need Bibi to tell them that. As a family we are seriously thinking of moving to the Jewish state.

            “Bibi has to beg for Jews to come to Israel because those there don’t stay long. Palestinian birth rate far exceeds Israelis so, even if it is one state – Jewish, Moslem and Christian – it will eventually be run by the Palestinians. Either way the Israeli Jews lose.”

            Ergo : let’s make Jewish into dhimmis and Israel a Jew free zone and anither third world Islamic state where there is chronic poverty, gay people are stoned, religious minorities such as Roman Catholics, are attacked, but at that note. To quote youself : One can not have any honest discussion when information is misrepresented, either intentionally or not. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about so, I’ll end it here.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Ah, blame others for your lies. You are responsible for yourself – didn’t your mother teach you anything? So, you find a false reason to justify you blatant LIES! That’s why I ended this – though you insist on trying to justify your sinful behavior. Stop lying – it’s easy. Tell the Truth and you don’t have to lie.
            It is Jewish on paper only – any FOOL knows that. Tear up the paper and it becomes a non-Jewish state in reality. Read the Jewish on-line news and learn the Truth.

          • sinful behavior? So you are one of those bores who goes and finds fault with everyone?

            As for the rest, I’m utterly lost with your ravings now….

            ….besides which I thought you weren’t speaking to me anymore (excuse me whilst I get a hanky , dab my watering eyes and sob quietly at this thought).

          • avi barzel

            Paul the Energizer Bunny. Keeps on going and going, faster and faster until he either accidentally wanders out the door to terrorize the garden slugs or runs out of juice. Betting is still open…

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Ha – why am I not surprised?
            You think highly of yourself and talk down Obama – once again you are
            WRONG…………. again!!

            Two days after his victory at the polls, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has already walked back his disavowal of a two-state solution.

            “I don’t want a one-state solution. I want a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution,” Netanyahu said Thursday in an interview with MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell. “I haven’t changed my policy.”

            U.S. officials have said that they have been waiting to see if Netanyahu would stand behind his campaign comments nixing a Palestinian state as he moves toward forming a governing coalition, and indicated that they would be reassessing aspects of the U.S.-Israel relationship if he maintained his firm opposition to a Palestinian state.

          • avi barzel

            Same thing. You don’t speak politicalese too well, do you? Let me help. A “sustainable, peaceful two-state solution.” Meaning, in the language of Oslo, meeting the detailed requirements of the unfortunate agreement which, contrary to what you may think, obligate the Arabs to do a lot more than live off the international dole and make more stone-throwers. So, now your Obamamessiah can pacify the warring Arab factions, unite Hamas and PLO into one peaceful government, get them to try elections, demilitarize them, get them to accept Israel and make them sit down at the table in fancy suits and pretend to be human. He’s got two years to do it all. All the best!

          • PaulOfTarsus

            and make them sit down at the table in fancy suits and pretend to be human.
            you are a pig. you call them not human – neither are you.

            Read what real Israelis Jews are saying about Netanyahu. He’s a bold faced liar. He can’t be trusted. He now has to prove himself – and if it is before the UN so be it.
            The USA owes Israel nothing. If they can’t work toward their own peace then they will have none. Let them go to war and be annihilated. Peaceful Israelis hate Netanyahu. Time will tell.
            You’re ignored

          • Dude

            He’s back- more times than a superman remake! Time for cigarette….

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Enough Said:
            Two days after his victory at the polls, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has already walked back his disavowal of a two-state solution.

            “I don’t want a one-state solution. I want a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution,” Netanyahu said Thursday in an interview with MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell. “I haven’t changed my policy.”

            U.S. officials have said that they have been waiting to see if Netanyahu would stand behind his campaign comments nixing a Palestinian state as he moves toward forming a governing coalition, and indicated that they would be reassessing aspects of the U.S.-Israel relationship if he maintained his firm opposition to a Palestinian state.

          • To me you don’t just seem to dislike bibi, or his polices, but the existence of Israel as a state full stop. I bet you’d be railing against Israel even with a meretz- Arab list coalition in power.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            WRONG………………………….. again oh foolish one.
            you’re ego is taking a hit today d-u-u-u-de….. ha ha

            Netanyahu flip-flops already
            Bibi is a joke. He needs the USA more than the USA needs him. Now OBAMA owns him. He can kiss OBAMA’s a**. lol ;-{)
            PS why aren’t doing what BIBI wants – go back to Israel and be a part of HIS Jewish nation? Son’t You like Bibi – or maybe YOU don’t LOVE Israel…. hmmm – talk the talk but can’t walk the walk – just as I expected from a fake d u-u-u-de ha ha
            I’ve had the last laugh on you and Bibi so I’m outta here…. ba-bye

          • Pubcrawler

            I think it’s past your bedtime.

          • Oh no, you aren’t going again?

          • CliveM

            You should say hello to Linus, he really loves himself as well.

          • avi barzel

            Yeah, but Linus is smart and can be quite hilarious. And he writes well, which goes a long way with me at least. This dude is just bat-shit crazy and dumber than a bag-full of hammers.

          • Clinical psychologist to the criminally insane – allegedly. Must be catching.

          • CliveM

            I’m feeling bad. I shouldn’t have linked this guy to Linus, because although Linus can be a bit ‘difficult’ he can also be intelligent, rational and astute. All of which differentiates him from this guy.

          • CliveM

            I agree, it is fools who “know” it. For the not intellectually challenged, Israel is a Jewish State.

          • carl jacobs

            Well … not the ENTIRE Egyptian Air Force. Just most of it. Say, you aren’t one of those insensitive guys who still calls it the “Six Day War”, are you? The Arabs find that appellation quite offensive, you know.

          • Anton

            The US subsidy to Israel has been, since 2007, about 1% of Israel’s GDP, to be spent in the US defence industry. 1% is not a lot despite your efforts to make it seem larger.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            WRONG………. $3 Billion is 2% of Israel GDP 2013
            WRONG……….. aid started in 1962 (see below)
            You are wrong across the board – so they are not facts at all

            $3 Billion is more than the US gives the state of Rhode Island and that is the approximate size of Israel. Rhode Island would be happy to get the funds sent to Israel. What country would not be happy to receive a Free Gift of 2% of its GDP? If it is nothing then Israel should give it back!

            “Since it began in 1962, American military aid to Israel has amounted to nearly $100 billion. For the past decades the United States has been regularly transferring aid of about $3 billion annually. In recent years, the aid has been solely for defense purposes. Additionally, the U.S. has been giving Israel generous military aid for projects that are important both to it and to Israel.”
            One can not have any honest discussion when information is misrepresented, either intentionally or not. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about so, I’ll end it here.

          • Anton

            I wrote: “The US subsidy to Israel has been, since 2007, about 1% of Israel’s GDP, some of it tied to the US defence industry. 1% is not a lot despite your efforts to make it seem larger.”

            Paul of Tarsus replied: “WRONG………. $3 Billion is 2% of Israel GDP 2013; WRONG……….. aid started in 1962…You are wrong across the board – so they are not facts at all”.

            According to this Wikipedia page Israel’s GDP in 2014 was $305 billion… of which 3 billion is fairly accurately 1%… would you care to retract and apologise? Which of us is WRONG? As for aid beginning in 1962, did I deny it? Work it out per capita per year and it is not particularly large.

            “You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about so, I’ll end it here.”

            Might I suggest that you look in a mirror?

          • avi barzel

            Um, you’re not gonna hold your breath I hope, Anton. But maybe he’ll finally blow out of here as he’s been threatening with every post.

          • carl jacobs

            Sam

            Don’t despise the resupply effort to make up Israeli losses in the Yom Kippur War. Those C-141s and C5’s and A4s and F4s were important to your war effort. We also placed units at DEFCON 3 over that war to indicate to the Russians our level of seriousness. You weren’t alone.

            I must admit, though. I wish the Americans hadn’t stopped Sharon. Kissinger may have been right, but … even so. Israeli tanks in Cairo would have been a worthy conclusion to the war.

          • Dude,

            I’d not disagree there …A different example being the Falklands , most will say the British fought it alone ,forgetting the US provided assistance with sidewinder missiles and secretly offered a carrier if one of them had been destroyed.

            Secondly I took the statement to imply the world powers, the great and the good just decided to create Israel one day, as if they guaranteed its creation and existence from one day.I think the state department didn’t want to, but Truman said yes.I don’t think Britain recognised Israel till 1950.

            However , I was thinking that the ‘free world’ didn’t do the actual fighting , but Israel did.

          • carl jacobs

            Sam

            Neither State nor DoD. Truman was pretty much the only one who supported the idea, and both State and DoD tried to undermine his efforts. But Truman was the President.

          • Dude

            My final thought is that in many ways the free world could do with another Truman in the white house.

          • Anton

            Yes, the UK received a huge amount of intelligence data from the US in 1982 once Jeanne Kirkpatrick had been sidelined. And let’s not forget that Israel clearly still does; Netanyahu acknowledged that with thanks in his recent speech to the US Congress.

          • Anton

            Yes, Uncle Sam did finally step up to the place in 1973. But it took the loading of Israeli nuclear bombs onto aeroplanes in full view of US observers, at a moment when Israel faced defeat, to elicit that help. We shall never know if that was a bluff.

          • carl jacobs

            The only actual threat of defeat that Israel faced was early in the war when an Israeli tank Brigade stood off two Syrian Armored Divisions in Golan. The Egyptians weren’t moving beyond that SAM umbrella. But who knows what would have happened if the Syrians had broken through into Israel proper before mobilization?

            The nuclear option was discussed on the second day of the war before there was any need of a massive airlift. I think that story is somewhat apocryphal.

          • Anton

            It’s denied today, but it would be, wouldn’t it?

          • carl jacobs

            A denial is not evidence of truth.

            By the time of the airlift, the survival of Israel was not in doubt. Victory in the war was in doubt. The Israelis wanted to win, and wanted the material necessary to achieve that objective. But the Egyptians were not leaving the protection of that SAM umbrella. When they tried, they got the … well, you know … kicked out of them.

            The Israelis were existentially threatened by the 1973 War. They were looking for revenge. They wanted to inflict a punishing and humiliating defeat on the Egyptians – something far worse than 1967. Kissinger refused to let that happen. It’s an interesting counter-factual to ask what the consequences would have been.

          • Anton

            Your view of history is a little strange.

            1. The Israelis saw the Syrians and Egyptians coming but Washington warned them to wait inside their own borders for them if they wanted US help. Half-hearted friendship or what?

            2. Gen Sharon exceeded his orders in going after the Egyptians, so what is your evidence that the Israelis wanted to punish Egypt?

            3. There are plenty of reputable sources given in the Wikipedia article about the Yom Kippur war for the tale that Israel prepared nukes in order to press the US for help at a crisis moment.

          • carl jacobs

            My view of history is accurate.

            1. The Israelis were caught completely by surprise in 1973. That’s why they had no significant forces on either the Golan Heights or in Sinai. The lack of Israeli preparation is the reason for the existential fear that war created. If the Syrians had pressed their advantage they could have broken through into Israel Proper and potentially destroyed the state of Israel. It was during those dark first days that nuclear options were discussed. The problem at that time was not lack of equipment but lack of mobilization.

            2. The Israelis had stabilized both fronts by the third day of the war and made short work of the Syrians. The Egyptians were chained to their SAM umbrella and could not advance East into Sinai. They tried. They failed badly. So in very short order the threat of annihilation passed from view. Without the threat of annihilation, the Israelis would have had no ability to coerce the US by threatening to use nuclear weapons. More to the point, the Israeli Gov’t wouldn’t have used them for all sorts of reasons. The bluff would have been transparent.

            3. What the Israelis wanted from the US was material to continue the war. They wanted to reverse the stalemate in Sinai and change the political dynamic. The US Gov’t had its own interests to cover. It wanted the Israelis to win but not in humiliating fashion. It wanted a peer relationship between Israel and Egypt instead of conqueror / supplicant.

            4. You don’t seem to understand how badly the Israelis wanted to destroy the Egyptian Third Army in Suez City. Kissinger personally stopped the Israelis from doing so. My evidence would be the many tense exchanges between Kissinger and the Israeli Gov’t over that very subject in the later part of October. The reason Kissinger protected that Army was to prevent the Egyptians from humiliating defeat.

          • Anton

            Your view differs from that in the references cited in Wikipedia’s article on the Yom Kippur war.

    • Dude

      What are you smokin’ as it sure is effecting your perception of reality. There no way the US would be willing to invade Israel and the rest of the free world? Canada? Australia? New Zealand ? Japan? Nope! That leaves Europe. Britain and France wouldn’t want to: Germany isn’t allowed, the Greeks can’t even pay the toilet cleaner, the Italians and Spanish would probably want to make love to Israelis, rather than fight , the rest are too worried about russia and Belgium spends more on army pensions than it does in actual ordinance. In short your theory is bull .

      • PaulOfTarsus

        HA – your theory is bull because it sure isn’t mine. Nice attempt at twisting my post. You think highly of yourself to think you can analyze countries – ha. You will learn in the next few months and years what the Free World – of which Israel is no longer a part – thinks and does to Israel.

        • well I wasn’t twisting anything : it was you who has written :

          “The clock is ticking down to Armageddon for Israel and it all started when Bibi opened his mouth. If he does not retreat from his position post haste – it is inevitable that Israel will perish.”

          How nice of you to write this about the world’s only Jewish state and given Jewish history…..

          …. I was being restrained and polite by taking what you had to say semi seriously…. I won’t in the future .

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Israel is a Jewish state in name only. It has none of the attributes of a truly Jewish religion – let’s call it a mixed bag of Jewish sects with a large dose of humanistic secularism thrown in – Bibi being among the primary examples of a hypocrite.

          • Are you a Jew? Who appointed you as the self appointed expert on Judaism? 80% of people who live in Israel , they’re Jewish….

        • CliveM

          So you speak on behalf of the free world do you? Of course you don’t think highly of yourself?

          I suppose we can agree on that last point.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            agree with yourself for all its worth. you’ve already shown your true colors. I’ll end it here.

          • CliveM

            Oh please don’t go……

    • carl jacobs

      I assume by “unleash[ing] true justice” you mean the ‘Free World’ will “turn its back and let the Arabs invade and slaughter.” Without the US, the combined forces of continental Europe couldn’t move a regiment across the Oder River. And in any case the idea of Europeans fighting is too ridiculous to contemplate. It’s the ‘Post War’ continent, remember? It doesn’t do war anymore.

      • alternative_perspective

        FYI, the combined forces of Europe significantly outnumber the US’, the problem being they’re not interoperable, disjointed, poorly coordinated & maintained and staffed by overweight, beer swilling sausage eaters.

        • PaulOfTarsus

          This is all being changed. Russia’s latest escapades are a wake up call. As for Russia – it’s complete military is 25 years behind the USA and 15 years behind France, Britain and Germany.
          Russia will crumble from within – they are no threat to the Free World except as the act of a desperate man – Putin – and then we call all kiss it goodbye.

          • carl jacobs

            So … you expect large increases in European military spending?

            BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

          • Miles Christianus

            Got to agree with you, Carl. I was recently on an ‘interoperability’ exercise with a unit from another country due to our probable joint future role in expeditionary, non-occupation operations: This was not a WEU force but the USMC.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            where do I say that?
            Let’s just say Russia is in as bad or worse shape than European land forces. The only advantage Russia has is in sheer numbers. The French are stepping up to the plate and can be expected to do more. The Germans are no pushover. If they get their backs up they can be a formidable force. Poland is begging for weapons. They can be counted on too. The rest are minimal to no help.
            In any event it is there war to win or lose. The USA can’t be expected to do it for them. We’ve done more than our share of fighting other country’s wars – and sticking our nose in where it doesn’t belong.

          • carl jacobs

            PaulOfTarsus

            where do I say that?

            It’s called an obvious inference.

            I said …

            Without the US, the combined forces of continental Europe couldn’t move a regiment across the Oder River.

            I also said the Europeans didn’t have the will to fight.

            You responded to me by saying …

            This is all being changed. Russia’s latest escapades are a wake up call.

            So what is changing? That would be inferior decrepit nature of European military power. And what would that wake-up call be about? The will to fight. Now perhaps you didn’t mean to say those things. But that is what you said.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Ha – in your case it’s oxygen deprivation to the brain.
            Let me explain it to you in simple terms. It’s when your brain hasn’t gotten enough oxygen and the brain cells begin to die. I’m thinking your brain hasn’t had any oxygen in a number of years. It’s what they call being ‘brain dead.’ think about it. oh, that’s right you can’t think. that explains your idiotic non-answer.
            I hope the USA isn’t counting on you to defend us – hopefully you’re a weekend warrior. I’ll end it here.
            PS: scratch the above. You have to have a brain for brain cells to die – or maybe you had 2 or 3 and they’re long gone. Either way you’ve proven you’ve got zero now. The end.

          • carl jacobs

            PaulOfTarsus

            Well, I guess you told me … something. On the other hand, it saves me the trouble of trying to decipher the rest of your posts on this thread.

            Can we clone you? It makes the job of defending Israel ever so much easier.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Nah. I’d like to help but, I saw your post about why Palestine can’t be a sovereign nation – you have it all figured out – you don’t need me. Fact is you apparently don’t know the geography so you might want to go back to the drawing board on some of those brainiac ideas of yours.
            One hopes the negotiator can overcome all of your obstacles – if they’re not all liberals. Or maybe you can step up and solve it for them.
            Hint: Gaza is on the coast so Palestine will have a seaport and air route without flying over Israeli airspace. To help a little more the seaport won’t be on the Dead Sea; get your map and look for a big body of water that starts with an M. You’re home from there. I’ve done my good deed for today. Good Luck to you. ;-{)

          • Pubcrawler

            Sound and fury

          • carl jacobs

            Avi …

            Can you help me out, here. Evidently, I’m confused. Israel. It’s near Manhattan, right?

          • Carl, a tip. When posting to PoT conclude with:

            “I’ll end it there. No need to reply.”

            It doesn’t always work but its worth a try.

          • carl jacobs

            Jack

            So, I thought I would read through all of his posts before I responded somewhere in detail because … well, frankly, I was having trouble figuring out what he was saying. I wasn’t (and still am not) sure if English was his first language. So I hoped the summary of all his posts would make things clear. Alas, I didn’t get that far. After his last couple of contributions I decided that there wouldn’t be any point pursuing the conversation.

            If I was a conspiracy “enthusiast” and I considered just how bad of a case PoT made … see even that is wrong, because he didn’t actually make a case. If I was a conspiracy “enthusiast” and I considered the some total of PoTs posts on this thread, I would suspect PoT of being a Mossad plant. You know that Mossad. No scruples.

          • Lol …. he isn’t. He behaves like this to all those who disagree with him. Remember our last interactions with him?

            Here’s his last message to Happy Jack on another site:

            “What are the voices telling you today? you need to stop asking this same question to me and anyone you suspect has a GOD-given brain they use. If you want a “traddie” non-thinking site – you know where to find them.

            If you don’t get it by now you never will. This is being posted so others can learn that those who stick to rigid outdated rules and regulations and claim to be “faithful” Catholics are, in fact, not..”
            Very … er … ????

          • avi barzel

            Don’t be silly. It’s in Englewood Cliffs. Beside the new Wall-Mart.

            Boy, he really told you off, Karl. That oxygen deprivation thing he got carried away with must’ve really hurt. Will you need counselling?

          • carl jacobs

            Avi

            I am experiencing Post Traumatic Non-Sequitur Syndrome. Symptoms include stairing for long periods of time at incomprehensible prose and mumbling things like “But you just said …” and “Wait a minute. What?” In extreme cases, the victim will even turn the computer screen sideways or upside down in a futile effort to extract meaning.

          • avi barzel

            Then it’s worse than we thought. Counselling won’t help. Let me send you a jar of my home-made wine vinegar pickled herring layered with thin slices of onion. Works for me.

            He also called you an armchair warrior. Little does he know he hit a bulls-eye. Didn’t you SAC boys sit around on overstuffed high-back chairs, gliding from monitor to monitor, sipping java all day, chatting about fishing for bass, fighting that urge to push the big red button out of boredom?

          • carl jacobs

            Herring ….

            I thought you were on my side.

          • avi barzel

            It sounds bad, but it is a brain food.

          • Pot, you are a very poor ambassador for the Catholic Church you claim to represent. Since we know you aren’t a faithful Catholic, considering the Magisterium less intelligent than yourself, this helps with damage limitation. However, where is all the tolerance, understanding, non-judgementalism, love of neighbour etc. etc. you preach on other sites?

            Jack will end it there. No need to reply.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Oh contraire – I do very well at representing the RCC – much better than you. You continue to have people ignore you because of your patronizing and condemning attitude. You just don’t know when to stop. Why not spend the rest of Lent in retreat and salvage what’s left of this Holy Season. Peace.

          • Peace to you too.

          • CliveM

            Ha, ha, ha, ha………………..!

            Living proof that Americans have no sense of irony.

            Sorry Carl :9)

          • “Ha – in your case it’s oxygen deprivation to the brain.”
            ROFL ….

          • carl jacobs

            Be nice, Jack. It’s not helpful to laugh at people for making nonsensical statements. You should be aiding him in understanding the truth.

          • CliveM

            Is their nothing you aren’t an expert on?

          • PaulOfTarsus

            It would seem to you and some of your friends that keeping up-to-date on current events is being an expert. One can only suppose living an insular life causes a myopic worldview.
            If anything I have written is factually incorrect it would have been wiser to point it out rather than take the unsavory choice of attacking the person.
            Your friend avi decided to attack the Palestinians as not human – that is unacceptable.
            He also accused me of not liking bibi. He unilaterally changed my not liking what he did politically to something personal. Then, of course, he further changed it to my not liking Israel. This is why people don’t like discussing Israel with some Jews because they falsely throw out the anti-Jewish / anti-Israel card. If one chooses to use this false method to somehow “win” their point they are sadly mistaken. Dialogue ceases yet, the damage has been done – and remembered. If an honest dialogue was had then bridges can be built. Honest people can agree to disagree.

            Carl called out to avi now you are calling out to carl. It seems you’ve got a small-minded little “gang” that sticks together to attack someone who doesn’t agree with your position. That is a childish game. Why gang up? Because individually you have a sense of incompetence. There’s not a man among you worth his salt. I unknowingly walked into a hornets nest of nastiness. I walk away unscathed.

            Don’t bother replying. I’m done with the bunch of you.

          • CliveM

            Oh well, until the next time.

          • avi barzel

            Betcha he won’t go.

          • CliveM

            More final tours then Frank Sinatra!

          • carl jacobs

            Well, aren’t you a little ray of sunshine.

        • carl jacobs

          I don’t care how many soldiers there are. I care about combat effectiveness. Outside of the UK, there isn’t a European military in NATO that’s worth a damn. They are glorified jobs programs.

    • dannybhoy

      ..will now unleash true justice on sinful Israel.
      ???
      Are you nuts?

  • Inspector General

    How that evil and dangerous Islamic people known as Palestinians can elicit any support at all is quite beyond the Inspector’s comprehension. Anyone know how many replacement rockets they’ve manufactured to date since the last disgusting offensive of theirs?

    As we know, Islam does not negotiate, unless you grab it by the throat. So there is no hope. Never was. This saga will drag on until the world’s or Israel’s end. Not sure which will come first, and there’s nothing to stop the two events happening simultaneously…

    • avi barzel

      Perhaps, Inspector, but the hullaballoo over “Palestinians” comes at a great price to the world and is sustained by billions in tribute to the scary terrorists and the once-monopolist suppliers of life-giving oil. Alas, money runs out, Muslim oil is losing its clout, the EU’s finances are in trouble and the Muslim world is aflame with violent babrbarism. So, don’t underestimate the possibility of the third option; the eventual fizzling out of the incongruous ideology of “palestinianism” while Israel carries on with a diversified, high-tech economy, trade agreements and recently discovered energy sources. Israeli gas will probably cause a greater philosophical and political shift in the EU than its appeals to justice, fairness and all that.

      • Inspector General

        A fellow isn’t ready for the end game just yet, Avi. So yes, there’s
        plenty of scope for interesting developments in the years to come. Though perhaps this as good as it’s ever going to get. What with Islamic behaviour resulting in their thinning out in hotspots…

        • avi barzel

          …perhaps this as good as it’s ever going to get.

          Wise words in a time when all the politicos and ideologues are gunning for ultimate solutions, final comprehensive agreements, peace for all times, the big pie in the sky. Sometimes the status quo does the job and manageable amounts of animosity, aggression and pressure can keep people and nations stronger than loafing around in security, with nothing to fight over but pension benefits, vacation days, innate rights to suicide or definitions of gender.

          • Inspector General

            Did you know our current Prime Minister would have British troops in Syria today if parliament hadn’t stopped the blighter. He has to be worse than Obama in what you’ve just highlighted in your first sentence…

          • avi barzel

            Wow, really? I wonder who the “good guys” are along whom he wishes to fight. Israel has adopted a much more reasonable approach: Seal the borders and atomize any personnel, vehicles or goats who wander in too close.

          • Inspector General

            Yes, Avi, so he did try. It’s a timely reminder for those on this site who are considering voting for the party he leads in a few weeks. It’s a personal view this, but one has great faith in UKIP having comes to terms that the current batch of mad Mahdis are no threat to the British empire that was.

          • CliveM

            It wasn’t going to be troops. Cruise missiles and bombing missions.

          • Inspector General

            Another Afghanistan you’d have found. Mission creep and so called peace keeping duties. The latter is the worst – that’s when the body count mounts up…

          • avi barzel

            Normally I’d cheer for Western unity on military ops, but in this case I don’t know what Obama has in his nasty little narcissist mind. The man is a bloody disaster and if we survive his presidency without a world war or a global economic meltdown, we’ll need to throw an international celebration.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Actually Obama did not want troops in Syria. He was only proposing to fire missiles. It was war hawks from the GOP who wanted boots on the ground. Obama would hear none of that.

          • avi barzel

            That’s the British Prime Minister the Inspector was talking about you dingbat, not your Bungler-in-Chief.

          • You must forgive his ignorance, Avi. He’s on foreign soil having followed Jack here from across “the pond”.

          • So dude who is this guy?

            Also I see you’ve reverted back from the grape/ cowboy avatar.

          • CliveM

            Ha ha, brilliant! Cowboy…………!

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr ….. name the time and place you skirt wearing Scottish reject.

          • CliveM

            If you didn’t look like a reject from a Ribena advert I might have taken that seriously. Shorty!

          • Grouchy Jack

            Look at you own avatar then numb nuts ….

          • CliveM

            I like to think of it as elegant and dignified, with just a soupçon of culture. Shorty!

          • Grouchy Jack

            Grrrr ………. Grouchy Jack is neither.

            He’s some ‘kin plonker from America. They always are from America, have you noticed? Has an opinion on everything and is never, ever wrong. Claims to a Roman Catholic but dismisses all the Bishops as knowing less them him – except the liberal ones.

            Once he called ‘Happy Jack’ mad – how rood was that?

          • Dude, you have my fullest sympathies, that he’s “one of yours”.

          • CliveM

            However I have to say, he’s brightened up my evening no end.

          • Grouchy Jack

            Noooo …. he’s not. He also claims to be a clinical psychologist for the criminally insane.

          • CliveM

            Oh hold on, has he visited before? I dimly remember his presence. He had supreme self confidence then as well.

            Doesn’t learn from experience does he?

          • Grouchy Jack

            He came, he commented, he left with his tail up his nether regions.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Ah – your “other” voice….. well, well now isn’t this interesting. Won’t those on the other side of “the pond” be interested in learning of your multiple personalities (no longer a clinical term) should you pester. You incorrectly have me listed as treating the criminally insane – WRONG……. again. I read your interpretation of my position – glad you are paying attention. However, you are WRONG…….. again. It was my pleasure to fully knock down each of their false arguments until it devolved into name calling – a clear sign they didn’t have the brains to raise the white flag but, were willing to wallow in their own filth. Imagine calling Palestinians less than human!

            It seems you set yourself up to be knocked down on both sides of “the pond.” Suffice to say you should keep your distance from me as I do you. This in merely an epilogue so don’t respond. Just wanted to acknowledge your ugly side “Grouchy Jack”

          • Grouchy Jack

            Feck off ….

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Having a bad day are we? Oh-h-h-h too bad.
            ha lol ha lol – it gives me some guilty pleasure to see you kicked to the curb as often as you are – you’ve got yourself disliked on a few continents it seems – not too bad for an old man.
            Is that all the voices are telling you today? No prophetic Holy Mother Church statements with which to enthrall the masses?

          • Grouchy Jack

            Feck off and go treat some of your imaginary patients. Admit it, you’re a nursing assistant.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            you are a sad sack if there ever was one – you’ve given me a good laugh with this post. If you only knew how well respected I am among my colleagues. I’ve mentored some, consulted for others on difficult cases – ha- you’re an easy one – you’re a head case if there every was one. Alone and lonely. Now take your meds, don’t stress because that will only make the voices louder – get off the computer and say a rosary. Peace – you nut cake… lol

          • Grouchy Jack

            Yeah sure …. dick head.

          • carl jacobs

            They always are from America, have you noticed?

            No … not true. We have no purple blueberry characters in the US.

          • *chuckle*
            Jack will repay that …..

          • avi barzel

            He followed you! We would all appreciate it, Jack, if you were to scrape your boot heels at the door before coming in. Thank you.

          • It is a dilemma. Does one keep one’s profile private to avoid such stalking or keep it open so others can familiarise themselves with sites visited and one’s expressed ideas? It’s a personal decision but Jack likes having a nose around other’s profiles and so offers the same opportunity to others.
            We’re all big enough and ugly enough to deal with his type. Besides, his visit did liven things up a bit and Jack had a good chuckle at some of his ideas and his ways of communicating them.

          • avi barzel

            Well, alright then, forgot about the profiles thing and I guess we all do like a little sport now and again, but maybe if you can scrub the buggers down a little? Let’s hope this one doesn’t bring along his kith and kin under some family reunification scheme or something……

          • CliveM

            “We’re all big enough and ugly enough”

            Speak for yourself!

      • CliveM

        Not just the EU’s finances in trouble!

        • avi barzel

          Ok, the US is in the doodoo as well, but in spite of Obama’s energetic attempts to bottom out its economy with insane anti-energy policies, over-regulation, Obamacare, open borders and Free Stuff for Life, it’s still chugging along and will repair itself once he’s out of Washington and onto his upcoming lecture tours.

          • CliveM

            Well to be honest I wasn’t just thinking USA. With one or two honourable exceptions the west has an over reliance on debt. I think even with Obama out of the way the US has some serious problems ahead. As do we all.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            Actually the US economy is doing quite well. The false news about Obama is just that – false. The often attacked Obamacare has now proven to be a worthwhile endeavor. The GOP that attacked it no longer do so and now that it is part of the fabric of our society it will stand. Unemployment is 5.5% and our gas & oil reserves have maxed out. We are shipping gas to the EU and will be increasingly over the next decade.

          • CliveM

            Tell me what is the national debt? How many trillion? Stoking up debt to produce a short term spurt of growth, not smart, just kicks the problem down the road for someone else to sort.

          • avi barzel

            Ha ha! You got snagged by a frothing Obamanaut posing as a Christian.

          • CliveM

            What is going to bring the west down? Debt and an inability to pay its way.

          • Linus

            Have you never heard of quantitative easing? If you run out of money, just print some more. And while you’re at it, give everyone free health care and a free phone too. Put your name in front of every policy and stack the highest court in the land with liberal judges and hey presto, you’ve got yourself a secular paradise on earth.

            Et après moi le déluge …

            😉

          • CliveM

            Indeed Linus. A good French phrase. And one even my limited French was up to!

          • Inspector General

            Saints preserve us. A US Democrat, here on Cranmer…

            Disgraceful turn of affairs, what!

          • avi barzel

            With Bibi’s speech to Congress and his nerve to win, when the Obamamessiah specifically requested a Labour-Arab ticket victory, the Dems are going ballistic. Another undoubtedly racist dissing of their Great Leader.You should see them foam like rabid wolverines in the US media and blogs.

            But yeah, this guy’s cramping Cranmer’s Place style. We got gentlemen and decent ladies here. Hey, if I trip him up on his way to the loo and you toss his cigs into his pint, he might get the message and not come back.

          • Linus

            I hear Hillary’s latest policy document has a working title of “Even More Free Stuff, But Only For Women, Blacks and Gays”. Pity I can’t vote for her, although I know lots of people who will. Four more years of American-style socialism should consolidate Obama’s legacy and who knows after that? Perhaps a First Lady running for the White House after her husband’s two terms are up will become a great American tradition and you’ll get a second President Obama after your second President Clinton. At the very least your Supreme Court will be irrevocably stacked with ultra-liberal judges who’ll make it their business to wipe all traces of religious morality from US law.

            As for the next Obama presidency, female rivalry being what it is, Michelle’s probably already working on her policy document and it will make Hillary’s arch-liberal tome look like an exercise in right wing conservatism. Can we guess what some of those policies might be? Obamacare Max with free everything and an index-linked Fortune 500 CEO salary for all women, blacks and gays? Prison sentences for all white men with a BMI exceeding 20 and stay-at-home moms? Home schooling and the overt practice of any religion apart from Wicca and Flying Spaghetti Monsterism made illegal?

            Ah well, we can always dream…

          • avi barzel

            Don’t count on the Clinton Woman getting a nomination. It’s not her private server (and her baffling inability to run more than one email browser on her devices), her Muslim Brotherhood assistant, the lies and corruption, nor the Benghazi fiasco that’ll get her; it’ll be Obama of the Long and Vindictive Memory.

            As for Moochelle running, that’s a distinct possibility. One thing she will have going is a guarantee of 95% of the Black vote. A gold bullion asset like that, one that no one else can wave about, will go a long way in attracting donations. Some might say that she is inexperienced, with no record of accomplishments, but that’s hardly a stumbling block; didn’t stop her hubby.

            Btw, Clinton is not my president; I’m Canadian. But we do have our own dynasties to contend with; the Trudeaus and the federal Liberal Party.

          • Linus

            Vive le Québec libre !

            But don’t worry too much for Hillary. It’s early days yet and her husband survived a worse pre-nomination scandal. I’m reliably informed that money continues to pour into her campaign, and as we all know what wins elections in the US, her chances have never been better.

            As for Mrs Obama, whenever she decides to stand, the nomination is hers for the taking. Indeed she’s the only one who could really threaten Hillary at this point, but she won’t stand now. She won’t want to deal with accusations of nepotism and will of course want clear blue water between her presidency and her husband’s legacy. A Senate run first to buy her some credibility. Probably on her home turf in Illinois. And then maybe a crack at the nomination when Hillary’s lame ducking her way through her second term.

            Just think, your neighbours could be in for 16 years of female rule. Even the prospect should make stalwarts of the GOP keel over in a collective fit of apoplexy. Maybe they’ll try to fight fire with fire and select Sarah Palin as their candidate.

            Now there’s one primary debate I would LOVE to see. Amy Poehler and Tina Fey would be set for life…

          • avi barzel

            Vive le Québec libre !

            Yeah, I’m with you on that one; I wish they would go already and take their stupid language laws with them. They keep on threatening to leave, get expressions of undying love, concessions and gifts, but it’s wearing thin. An entire province on welfare. Their departure would save Canada trillions in the long term and the Left would collapse. Won’t happen, though. Every time the Anglo-Canadian public gets sick of their whining, Quebeckers get worried and the separatist parties suffer, like in their recent election.

          • Uncle Brian

            What other possible candidates are there for the Democratic Party nomination? We don’t seem to hear about any at all, apart from Mrs C.

          • Anton

            Let the Republicans put up a black candidate!

            In Britain, the Tories were first to put up a woman, after all.

          • IanCad

            They may have one in Dr. Ben Carson.

          • avi barzel

            Why is a Brit putting a period after Dr as North Americans do, and a Canadian follows the British convention? Very suspicious.

          • IanCad

            Can’t help but pick up a few bad habits having spent the greater part of my life in the US.
            I get funny looks from strangers with whom I initiate conversations. Still sit down to pee as well.

          • PaulOfTarsus

            The good Dr. has already eaten crow – fool that his. Not a bit of common sense. He’s finished before he gets started.

          • avi barzel

            As Ian mentioned below, there is Dr Carson, brilliant neurologist. Whether he is political material is a question though. The Democrats will go after his Creationism, which in spite of my drumming for Theistic Evolution, should not be an issue as it doesn’t affect most people’s lives, abilities or credibility either way.

    • bockerglory

      Islam is the biggest threat to human progress. So many left wing middle class iranians supported the Ayatollah in the 1980s thinking that the Ayatollahs were soft an fluffy like buddhists or christians. Not so.

      • Inspector General

        One remembers that time well. It turned out the Ayatollah was not at all sympathetic to left wing middle class Iranians, especially those who shaved…

      • avi barzel

        Boker as in morning in Hebrew? Morning glory, whose seeds form a key ingredient in lysergic acid diethylamide, colloquially known as LSD and affectionately as acid ? Cool moniker!

  • Darter Noster

    I remember stopping for petrol once in Abu Dhabi. I went into the shop to buy a snack, and browsed the magazine rack. On the rack was a book for children, in which inhuman, monstrous Jews in Israel tortured a heroic young Palestinian. The Jews were portrayed as monkey-like savages with a bestial desire to destroy Arabs.

    There are rights and wrongs on both sides, but unless the existential threat to Israel can be removed from the Middle East then it’s very difficult to blame Israelis for electing governments which will not compromise. How can you compromise with annihilation?

  • dannybhoy

    I signed a petition today on behalf of a poor Pakistani Christian mother of five children..
    https://www.change.org/p/u-s-senate-help-save-pakistan-mother-sentenced-to-death-for-blasphemy-saveasiabibi.
    Sentenced to death by Pakistani Muslims.
    I look around the world at Islamic nations being torn apart by war, sectarian/religious violence, persecuting religious minorities especially Christians, whilst their co religionists live safe and secure in Western countries.
    I read about men, women and children being raped, tortured and decapitated.
    All across the Muslim world whilst Muslim extremists/fanatics/haters of the West carry out terrorist attacks on innocent people, tourists and schoolchildren.
    My question is this:
    “What humane and civilised person or organisation or nation would castigate Israel for putting the safety and security of its own citizens before the highly dubious benefits of the establishment of a Palestinian State, whose leaders are committed to the total destruction of Israel and the establishment of a worldwide Islamic State under Sharia Law?”

    • Royinsouthwest

      Obama did sod all to save the pregnant woman in Sudan who was an American citizen who, despite being brought up as a Christian, was accused of apostasy for being a Christian. In the end she was released because of world-wide condemnation of her sentence, much of it from the public of European countries and European politicians.

    • Miles Christianus

      Thank God there hasn’t been a Palestinian “spring”. Although such events have thus far promised positive change, they have only augered a winter for all other than the most twisted, hate-filled and bigoted strains of Islam.

      • Pubcrawler

        Well, there was a bit of a Palestinian ‘false dawn’ with elections in Gaza, Judea and Samaria. The consequences of those ought to have tempered journalistic enthusiasm for the later Arab ‘spring’, but there’s none so blind as will not see (yes, Bowen, Ducet, Donison et al., I’m talking to you).

    • Miles Christianus

      I’ve signed numerous petitions for Asia’s release. I also pray for her and take a daily drink of water from a Punjabi tin mug in her honour.

      • dannybhoy

        Because our current UK mindset is always to placate and compromise.
        Remember what I said about that funny little smile we Christians often display? Sadness, wistfulness and cluelessness all rolled into one..

    • bockerglory

      Totally agree with you. The biggest threat to human civilisation is Islam. For women and children the consquences are dired. Feminists – rise up against Islam now!

  • Dreadnaught

    I don’t think Syria spawned Hezbollah as much as Iran did. The ruling minority Assaad regeime being Alawite are hated by the Sunni and have an easier time from the Iranian Shi’a who stumped up 1500 troops and megabucks in 1982 to challenge the Israeli incursion in to Lebanon.
    The Sunni ‘Springists’ are no more interested in democracy than is ISIS.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Israel, the ONLY democracy in the Middle East.

    • Uncle Brian

      And as far as anybody can tell, that will still be the state of affairs in 50 or 100 years’ time.

      • CliveM

        I’d put money on it.

        Sadly however (no dissenting voices please) I won’t be here in 50 years. Probably!

    • Egypt had a democratically-elected government for a short period recently. I’m not absolutely certain that it improved things.

      • Pubcrawler

        Indeed. One election does not a democracy make, as we see so often, and not just in the Middle East. Only the establishing of a certain democratic mindset can do that.

      • There’s a big difference between an established democracy and an election. Iran has elections, but it isn’t what I’d call a democracy. The Soviet bloc used to hold elections, but with one party which would inevitably get 99% of votes.

        • dannybhoy

          Similar Egypt.
          The reality is that Islam does not ‘do’ democracy. It isn’t allowed for in their world view.
          It used to be Western policy to get ‘pro-western strong men’ in power and then support them.
          In many cases this was cynical and unwise, but imo it actually worked in the Islamic world, because it fit in with how the Islamic world works.
          General Sisi of Egypt seems to me a return to the firm and pragmatic leadership that has (relatively) served Egypt’s best interests.

    • Pubcrawler

      Unless you count Lebanon.

  • Phil R

    http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/never-forget-toulouse-france-ozarhatorah.html/

    well nobody else seems to have remembered

    perhaps that is why he was elected

    • Doctor Crackles

      Makes me weep Phil.

      The cowardice shown here makes me sick.

      We are British, we fight, and when our leaders are God-fearers and men of courage we win.

      As Paul instructs us:

      Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

      • Phil R

        Did you read that the blonde girl in the photo age 7 ran away and was chased around the school by the guy before he shot her in the head three times.

        He filmed it all on his head cam and this footage was later available on the internet on jihadist websites.

        To me the reactions of other hardline Muslims to his actions is most interesting and gives us clues about the mindset we are likely to be/are dealing with.

        Before we get too judgmental we have Dunblane of course. However, there was nobody that stated that Thomas Hamilton had done the will of God by shooting defenseless children. Indeed the Gov took action to try to stop it happening again due to intense public pressure.

        The difference in the reactions of the communities involved to me is the most frightening. Far more than the act itself.

      • CliveM

        Churchill wasn’t a God fearer, but we still won :0)

  • carl jacobs

    So let’s just say this once again. The Palestinians are never going to get a legitimate state on the West Bank. They may get something called a “state” but it won’t be an actual state. Why do I say this? I’m glad you asked.

    A actual state implies sovereignty, and that is something the Palestinians will never receive. They will never:

    1. Never be given control of the borders.

    2. Never be given control of the resources – especially water.

    3. Never be given control of the air space.

    4. Never be given control of high ground dominating Major Israeli population centers.

    5. Never be allowed to form a military.

    6. Never be allowed to make treaties with foreign governments.

    These are all essential elements of a sovereign state, but they are all too threatening to the integrity of Israel. So what could the Palestinians receive? Some limited form of autonomy. Nothing more.

    One wonders after these two-state solutions. When the Palestinians prove themselves false partners for peace, the Israelis will have to re-take this ground at great cost. So what will they have gained? Western useful idiots liberals can say they took a risk for peace. But why is that important? These same useful idiots liberals will immediately blame the Israelis for the new war, and demand they withdraw. I could include here the appropriate response to these useful idiots liberals, but this is a family weblog.

  • Linus

    It’s very unlikely there will ever be a Palestinian state. There just isn’t the requisite unity and desire for peace among the Palestinian population. No matter what agreements are reached with whoever claims leadership of the Palestinian people, factions and splinter groups will continue to attack Israel. The hatred is just too deeply ingrained.

    Whatever you think of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the reality of the situation is that they’re not getting a homeland any time soon. If things go on as they are, which I think they will, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a form of ethnic cleansing starting to take place on the West Bank and possibly throughout Israel. Arabs will be displaced and territory annexed outright. The Arab world will shriek and wail and attack Israel, and the Israelis will successfully defend themselves as they’ve always done.

    This is Obama’s nightmare. Régime change in the Arab world following their defeat by Israel means ISIS in power in Saudi Arabia. What happens to Saudi oil then? Americans will do what it takes to protect their economic interests, up to and including selling Israel out. Be it Obama or Hillary Clinton or even an unlikely Republican president, support for Israel will be withdrawn as soon as it takes the final, inevitable step towards full annexation of the West Bank.

    Netanyahu’s re-election brings that step closer, I think. The next few years should be interesting…

    • Anton

      Well said, Linus.

    • CliveM

      Interesting analysis Linus. Do you think losing US support will be a big impact? Personally I think Israel is already factoring the possibility of that in.

      As you say it will be interesting and dangerous.

      • Linus

        I think Israel will defend itself with or without US support. It was crucial in the early years of the Israeli state, but now that Israel’s economy is strong and its own armed forces are probably the best trained and most effective anywhere in the world, it can take care of itself. And it will.

        The US and the EU seem to be waking up to the fact that our economic prosperity (such as it is) hangs by a thread and that events are pushing Israel to cut that thread in order to protect itself from annihilation. So Israel is becoming the bogeyman, not just among the gibbering socialists who write opinion pieces for the liberal press, but also among those who wield real power.

        As Israel becomes increasingly isolated, annexation of the West Bank becomes more likely and the kind of conflict the West wants to avoid at all costs becomes virtually a certainty. When the Arab régimes implode once Israel defeats them, ISIS will take control and where they don’t, local warlords will fill in the gaps. The resulting chaos will effectively halt the supply of oil to the West and things will get pretty horrible pretty quickly.

        I don’t fear jihad descending on Europe. But I do fear the economic upheaval that a sudden drying up of the oil supply will bring.

        • CliveM

          Yes a convincing analysis. Also scary. But essentially the short termism of the west, of which our inability to control our debt is the most worrying symptom, may yet destroy us. We’ll all have to get fracking if Saudi indeed goes tits up.

          • Linus

            Frack away to your heart’s content. We’ll all be fracking when the pumps dry up. Even crazy-haired Peruvian bobble-hat wearing ecologists will be fracking when there’s no more oil left to power the production of all that “green” electricity they need to recharge those toy cars that take them all of 10kms before conking out.

          • Anton

            Again, well said Linus!

        • dannybhoy

          Regarding oil reserves there used to be this old joke in Israel ‘that when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, he took the wrong turning and chose milk and honey over oil…”
          But now consider this…
          “War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas Fields”
          http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680

    • dannybhoy

      Some sensible stuff in there Linus, thanks.
      There are groups in Israel that have given up on the idea of a peaceful outcome with the Palestinian people. Not that there aren’t Palestinians who would be open to a peaceful arrangement, but there will never be enough of them to make a difference.
      These Israeli groups are contemplating full annexation of territories into a ‘Greater Israel’ because
      a) they believe whatever concessions Israel makes it will never be enough.If it involved yielding territory, it only brings those who would annihilate them that bit closer.
      b) Annexation and consolidation makes Israel stronger and more defensible.

      Regarding Saudi Arabia I doubt any friendly Muslim State works harder to destroy its Western allies…

  • Ivan M

    Its a certainty that Jews and Muslims will live in peace in Israel, or Greater Israel or
    Judea and Samaria, since they have become mirror images of each other. The children of Abraham are back to form. Good luck to them as they roll down the hill.

    • avi barzel

      Yah. We be rollin.’ Deep.

  • bockerglory

    Dear Archbishop, I do not think an Islamic country can eradicate “all expressions of Israel-hatred from their cultures and consititutions …. and anti-Semitic extremists”. This is because Mohammed calls for the killing of Jews directly. This is the problem. Judgement day for Muslims is seeing all the Jews being killed – it is a “We’re right, your’re wrong!”. The Qu’ran and Hadiths are unchallengeable and can never be modified, re-interpreted or changed. So I think Archbishop, you say this as “tongue-in-cheek”, unless his Holiness has a Ghost Writer who is not as well versed as the Archbishop.