Aylan Kurdi
Ethics & Morality

Aylan Kurdi's drowning reveals our hypocrisy towards Europe's refugee crisis

 

So far this year an estimated 2,643 people have died attempting to cross the Mediterranean in a desperate search for a new life free from war, persecution and suffering. The figure for 2014 was 3,279. These were mothers, fathers, children, sons and daughters; real people just like you and me, each with their own story to tell as to why they were willing to risk everything to flee the lands of their forefathers in order to search for a relative paradise somewhere in Europe that they could call home. In doing so, they all paid the ultimate price.

Meanwhile, as the numbers heading to a watery grave has increased week after week, we have been sitting in our cosy homes not taking too much notice of the latest news of another capsizing unless the death count was significantly large enough to catch our attention. But instead of grief, how many of us have instead been apathetic toward or even judgmental of the hundreds of thousands, including these unlucky ones, who have set out for the shores of Italy and Greece? Why were they foolish enough to pay traffickers hundreds or even thousands of dollars to cram them onto overcrowded and unstable boats and then abandon them to the whims of the open sea? Why did they expect us to clothe, feed and house them without question, when they arrived unannounced? Could not those who have made it as far as Calais just get the message that they aren’t welcome to the UK and that we don’t appreciate the train delays and hassle they are causing?

But now, with the Independent’s publication of a little boy’s body washed up on a Turkish beach, it would appear that something seismic has happened. Our critical attitude has been shattered as our hearts finally connect with the tragedy of a single child’s death. He has become more than another statistic to us – he was Aylan Kurdi, a three-year-old refugee from Kobani in Syria, who died with his mother and five-year-old brother attempting to reach the Greek island of Kos.

All of a sudden we are talking about these people as refugees seeking asylum and protection rather than migrants looking to take advantage of our continent’s prosperity. At last we are waking up to the reality that well over 70 per cent of those who have made it to Europe have done so to escape war, dictatorial oppression and religious extremism. David Cameron’s reaffirmation yesterday of his refusal for the UK to take in more than a handful of refugees from the Middle East is looking heartless and dramatically out of step with public opinion. Germany is expecting to take in 800,000 migrants this year: they had ‘Refugees Welcome’ banners unfurled at football stadiums last weekend. In comparison, the UK, which has taken advantage of its physical separation from the rest of Europe, has adopted a severe case of nimbyism. Of the 4.1 million refugees who have fled Syria, we have resettled 216, which isn’t even enough to fill a decent sized plane.

This sudden pricking of our national conscience shows how hypocritical our attitudes toward this ‘swarm’ have been, but if it takes the heart-rending images of a single boy’s death to finally open our eyes to the truth, then so be it. Most of us will never get close to having the faintest idea what it’s like to see our country torn apart and to lose everything beyond the clothes on our bodies. Nor will we be forced to abandon our homes and cities in order to have a chance of saving our lives. But this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be able to show compassion toward those who have had to do all that, and more.

David Cameron has repeatedly stated in the past that we are a Christian country. Jesus is the most famous refugee of all time, having been taken as a child to Egypt in order to escape Herod’s plot to murder him. God also specifically called the Jewish nation to take care of the foreigners living among them.

This Judaeo-Christian appreciation of the vulnerable status of refugees has produced a deep humanitarian tradition in this country. Before the Second World War, Britain welcomed 60,000 Jews taking flight from Nazi Germany. As David Miliband reminds us, we were at the forefront of writing the conventions and protocols that established legal rights for refugees.

The time for us to remember our responsibilities and re-evaluate our position is overdue. This crisis has revealed so many failings and injustices. It highlights the evils of war and persecution that devastates the lives of millions. It has tested the EU’s open-borders policy to breaking point. Questions have to be asked as to whether intervention in the Syrian conflict would have prevented much of this, and what future intervention should happen. It has left Lebanon with its population of 4.5 million housing 1.2 million refugees, while Saudi Arabia (population 28.9 million) and other Arab countries have firmly closed their doors. Human traffickers show just how evil man can be toward his brothers and sisters, exploiting the helplessness of others in order to make money, and then not caring whether they live or die when stripped of the last remnants of their worldly wealth.

The UK has the choice to make this situation better or worse. We cannot solve it, but we must decide whether we are willing to play our part or just be content to cry a few tears over Aylan Kurdi’s tragic death before going back to how we were. If we believe ourselves to be anything other than self-centred as a nation, there can be only one response.

  • David

    This is complex question and knee jerk emotional responses will not address the huge issues involved.
    Firstly, the west must stop deliberately destabilising areas that ally with Russia, or at least do not ally with the west. This is the biggest push behind the human waves.
    Secondly, the west must not pretend that it can absorb all of the world’s genuine asylum seekers plus, economic migrants.
    We must reconnect with the clear, distinct difference between economic migrants, and the genuine asylum seeker. This distinction is being forgotten, yet it is the key tool in helping to decide who we do take and who we reject.
    Asylum seekers should be taken in, using a rational distribution system between countries.
    The wealthy Islamic countries should be shamed into taking its own Islamic people. Why are they just closing its doors ? Jordan is behaving more as a western country, taking in many displaced persons.
    Deliberate mass migration of economic migrants, to the west, of peoples with totally different cultures and beliefs, is I believe immoral, because it creates tensions within the host society.
    An Australian style points system, as Ukip alone has said, should be introduced for economic migrants. What could be fairer ?

    Publicity should be circulated, in areas from which economic migrants are coming, making it clear that they will be subject to a points system; they will not be automatically admitted. This will reduce the flows of the vulnerable and the illegal trade of the smugglers.
    The smuggler’s gangs should be “disrupted”, if necessary the leaders killed.

    It strikes me that the west is now behaving in a far more irresponsible way than during the empire days. Then if we took over a nation, we flew the flag, declared it was “ours” and then assumed responsibility for law and order. Now we just bomb and destabilise them, from afar, and then walk away leaving these dangerous vacuums into which step all sorts of lawlessness, including the smugglers running their “customers” through it, sadly many to watery deaths in the Mediterranean Sea.
    Yet we hand over countless millions in vanity projects called “aid”, most of which is channeled through despots, thus entrenching their rule, frustrating the emergence of democracy; moreover the EU’s trade barriers frustrates market mechanisms from allowing their economies to grow.
    Great is the folly of the hypocritical west ! But we cannot absorb the entire world in western europe !

    • Merchantman

      Yes you are right, we were more responsible then, but two bloody world wars later and we were weary and bankrupt. Also the US’ DNA pre-determined that they would see the end of Empire; forgetting of course that the US is an Empire albeit one like Russia that is not ‘outre-mer’.

  • Ivan M

    “You’ve got to grow calluses on your heart or you just bleed to death,” said Lee Kuan Yew, allowing a long pause before he spoke. (About the Vietnamese boat people leaving the former South Vietnam in 1975-1979). Why don’t the bleeding hearts accept that that it is better to ensure that these people stay nearer home, instead of setting up incentives for them to travel and drown.

    • bluedog

      If you read enough of the sayings of the late Harry Lee, you can only thank his lucky stars that he was born an ethnic Chinese. A Caucasian saying the same things would have been branded as a dangerous racist.

      • Ivan M

        I grew up under him, bluedog. The man was a socialist in his early years, but had to reluctantly jettison much of it, in the face of the adamantine realities of race and the tribalism of religion.

  • Anton

    If a few, take them. If a lot relative to us then train them, arm them and send them back to fight for the land they love?

    • Dreadnaught

      We were doing this with Libyans, until they went on a rape rampage.

  • Dreadnaught

    What would have been the response if fit young men had fled the UK as soon as the German Blitzkrieg began. Or if the Czech, Polish and French decided not fight for their families and countries alongside with the allies?
    We should not forget that ISIS and Assad are wholly responsible for the chaos in war crimes in Syria. But we have lost lives and spent billions in Afghanistan and Africa and the masses of single men drowning out real refugees are the ones making genuine asylum seekers impossible to help quickly because of their callous barefaced opportunism.
    They are the ones responsible for this little lad’s death so they can forget about making us feel responsible or guilty.
    What the German and Swedish governments does is up to them and bares scant regard to the opinions of their own indigenous populations. They are the last people to be listening to.
    I heard yesterday that the Pound Shops in Turkey are witnessing an economic boom in sales of cheap plastic dinghies and life jackets – so sense of outrage or compassion there – but that’s Muslims the world over – shaft each other, but take mayhem to the streets when someone writes a book or draws a cartoon.

    • Ivan M

      So you too bought the crap that it is Assad’s responsibility. As President of Syria, what was he supposed to do with an insurgency supported alternatively by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, the UK and the US, with Israel playing a small chihuahua role?

      • Dreadnaught

        So you approve of barrel bomb diplomacy do you?

        • Ivan M

          Barrel bombs were not used in 2011 when this whole thing started in Syria. I wonder who gave the giddy among the Sunnis the idea that they were going to win on a slogan of – Christians to Lebanon, Alawites to hell. Satan’s spawns John McCain and Hague were cheering on those who could morph easily between al Nusra, al Qaeda, and ISIS. Blame them and those I mentioned earlier, not those who are fighting with their backs to the wall. And on the subject of barrel bombs again I know it’s chutzpah, but you will find that some of the barrel bomb damage assessment issued by interested parties were illustrated with photos from another place further South.

    • The Explorer

      Have you seen Pat Condell’s ‘Goodbye Sweden’ on Youtube? Worth a visit if you haven’t. Be sure to look at the comments, especially the Swedish woman who says who is this idiot, there’s absolutely no problem in Sweden.

      • Dreadnaught

        Been a fan of PC for a long time – I’m relieved that they haven’t a knife to his neck.

  • Gy1aa

    Anton, Ivan and David. Where is your heart? Can you not find it in you to say at least a first word of empathy before your harshness?

    • Ivan M

      If I were at the beach and were able, I would of course try to save the boys. That is me as an individual. The state however is a different entity. It has to ensure the interests of its own citizens first. Can I impose the burden of a few hundred thousand foreigners, mostly it seems Muslims, on my neighbours? Knowing that what is happening is a precursor to a Kosovo like, situation in a generation. Will those who tug at heartstrings now be around to take responsibility then, or pass the buck to Jesus? As Hammond said, the whole world would like to come to Europe. It is a dereliction of duty to your own neighbours, who have to bear the future burdens, to let sentiment cloud your judgement. Just as a picture is worth a thousand words, a picture is worth a thousand lies.

    • Anton

      That is exactly what I did ! Here is what I wrote:

      If a few, take them. If a lot relative to us then train them, arm them and send them back to fight for the land they love?

  • The Explorer

    Germany’s message ‘Refugees Welcome’ is only part of the picture. There have also been over two hundred attacks in Germany on shelters for asylum seekers.

    800 000 seems a big figure (that’s not far short of the population of two major European cities like Manchester and Rouen combined) but it’s easy to see how it’s arrived at. 200 000 through Greece this year, 100 000 through Italy, 3000 a day through the Balkans, 100 000 boat people in July 2015: you could be there in no time.

    • Dreadnaught

      The population of Syria alone is/was around 23 million; all of whom no doubt want to be somewhere else.

      • The Explorer

        Quite, and then add Eritrea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan: a lot of whom are trying to BE somewhere else.

        The solution is to close down the unsuccessful parts of the world and relocate them in the successful parts. Unfortunately, that’s just a recipe for universal global failure.

  • Politically__Incorrect

    Gillan, I’m sorry, but your reaction to the image of the drowned little boy is rather typical of how British people leave their intelligence at the door when they see such things. Why would opening the doors to refugees and migrants have stopped this boys death? Surely it would encourage even more people to take the risky journey and result in even more drowned children. Are you suggesting that we set up a direct ferry service from Syria to London purely for refugees? You talk about British hypocrisy, but I would say there is an hypocrisy in the way the public reacts to the image of one dead child but happily endorses the slaughter of 250000 unborn UK children every year.

    These families came via Turkey I believe. There lives were not under threat there. Turkey is a safe haven for them in so far as they are outside the region of conflict. Also, many of these people have paid considerable sums of money to traffickers. They are therefore probably the more privileged members of society and have abandoned the poorer counterparts. Many are fit young men, who, instead of staying to defend the families and communities, have fled in search of a job.

    There are different ways we could help these people without offering them permanent residency here. Never underestimate the power of the media to manipulate and brainwash. Common sense is better than a guilt trip.

    • James Bolivar DiGriz

      As well as emoting rather than thinking, Gillian is picking up bits of trivia and passing them off as fact.

      “we have resettled 216” is out by a factor of 10. The number (year to June 2015) is 2,204.

      http://order-order.com/2015/09/03/no-britain-has-not-accepted-just-216-syrian-refugees/#:PNwuJmL8p8hlRQ

    • bluedog

      ‘Gillan, I’m sorry’
      In this context, a mistake to apologise.

    • bockerglory

      We must help them now. But this is now a full war in the sense that we need to defeat Islamic Nazisim. Because the doctrine of Islamic Nazism must be smashed so Moslems become like Germans and learn to apologise for their Nazis Islamic nation.

      I say Islamic Nazis because just like Hitler they seek purity (ie. Not of race but religion) and will slaughter all who do not agree / summit to their ideology.

      If we treat ISIS et al. As a type of Nazism then UN is not attacking a religion.

      We need to be as gentle as lambs bit as wise as serpents

  • Orwell Ian

    The more refugees that come, the more that will come. And as more come more will drown in the attempt. Letting refugees in will not stop the tragedies at sea. The boats must be prevented from leaving in the first place. The EU already has a humanitarian crisis large enough to destabilise society. They need to get a grip on this and stop the influx or events will turn nasty.

    What are we to make of refugees with an entitlement attitude? Those who show their gratitude by forming crowds and barging their way into Hungary for example. Why should we take in some of those who cut through their brand new razor wire fence or others who form themselves into knife wielding gangs at Calais and try to break into Britain. We are going to have to show some discernment here in sorting out the genuine from the anti-social and the criminal.

  • Watchman

    The naivety of this article is only matched by the naivety of many western leaders who simply see this current situation as it is presented rather than a strategy of the global jihad, the cornerstone of the Islamic mission to dominate the earth. To see IS as simply another group of over zealous young men ruthlessly waging war on the infidel is also naive; this appears to be a well considered long term plan to achieve global domination. Driving populations of Muslims from their homelands and into enemy territory as refugees provides a foothold in that territory for eventual takeover. We have already seen the bullish attitude of Muslims in a majority in some of our inner cities as they attempt to declare their area as Dar-el-Islam. The current strategy would see more and more land taken over and declared Islamic. Little wonder that Islamic states are unwilling to take them; that would defeat the objective of global jihad. Was Turkey not a suitable place to ask for asylum if all that was required was a safe haven?

    And, Gillan, Jesus went to Egypt as a refugee but returned to Israel as soon as it was safe for Him to do so. What chance is there that this current batch of refugees will do the same?

  • Paul Dean

    I think if we had a “refugee residence permit” that could help. The permit could be linked to foreign office advice to expire when the time comes that it’s safe to return to their home. I think this would calm people’s fears over too many people coming if it is more clear that it is temporary. I’m sure a genuine war refugee will want to return to help rebuild their country when the time comes, otherwise they are an economic migrant in disguise.

    • The Explorer

      What if it isn’t ever safe to return home? ISIS isn’t a passing phenomenon: it’s been building since the 1980’s. It plans to entrench itself before it expands.

      • CliveM

        Getting them to leave would also be a problem if they refused to go.

        • The Explorer

          After ten years or so, people put down roots.

          • CliveM

            And had babies who will view the UK as their natural home.

          • Anton

            But Islam as their natural religion.

          • CliveM

            In the main, yes.

          • Dreadnaught

            I agree with you but the trouble is, as vile and obscene as Islam can be, the politicians and Leftwing never take the trouble to simply ‘join the dots’ or aquaint themselves with history, ancient or modern.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      In principle that’s a reasonable suggestion. I suspect that in practice many refugees will disappear off the radar if the time comes for them to be repatriated. Also, I suspect that those who are genuinely patriotic for the homeland won’t have come here in the first place.

  • CliveM

    You have to be either emotionally damaged or border line psychopath not to be moved by the image, both of the poor soul being lifted dead and the photo of him alive.

    But what to do? This child didn’t die because of UK policy, he died because the ME is a cesspit and because Human Traffickers are the scum of the earth. We could let them all in tomorrow and unless we address these issues the day after another poor child will die.

    How do we turn the ME intro a place where people can live in peace? How do we stop the traffickers? I don’t think there is an answer to the first. Or at least not a short term one. To the second, unless we send the Navy and Army in to patrol these waters and yes pick up and transport these refugees ourselves, there will be more deaths.

    Or do we put ‘boots on the ground’ and establish safe havens? Expensive, dangerous and the areas themselves would have to be extensive.

    These are the real questions the European leaders need to answer if they want to save lives. It’s not about divvying up amongst us the ones that get here.

    Yes we should perhaps take more, but that by itself won’t save a single life.

  • preacher

    With all due respect Gillan, the historical examples you refer to involved far fewer people than the current crisis. As a nation I’m sure that we feel for these people, but this is a national crisis, not a personal one & it has to be solved at a national level.

    Those responsible for these crimes, are the extremists who are destroying the infrastructure, homes & livelihoods of these desperate people, plus the wicked opportunists who are stealing all they have left & abandoning them to drown in unseaworthy ships & dinghies.
    Until the source of the problem is removed, the fatalities will continue. Logically, there is only a limited amount of room available before we are forced to open internment camps for the enormous numbers of people who are getting more violent daily as the crisis worsens.

  • Whilst the picture is great to remind us of the human consequences of all this, saying that we therefore ought to give all migrants/asylum seekers/refugees free passage to our shores is frankly ridiculous.

    That’s the same short-sighted, naive response of most socialists knee-jerk reaction to images of poverty – namely, give them free money. And we all know how effective that is at eliminating poverty!

  • The Explorer

    Pat Condell describes Sweden as Europe’s canary in the coal mine. Watch what’s happening there now to see what will happen elsewhere later. But if Germany really does take 800 000, it will be making a bid to take over the canary role.

  • Johnny Rottenborough

    Germany is expecting to take in 800,000 migrants this year

    Sitting in your cosy home, spare a thought for Germans like the friend who wrote to me yesterday. He’s a recent graduate living in southern Germany.

    ‘Germany seems to surrender yet another time, this time exclusively to its own foolish obsession with welcoming 3rd world immigration, attracting more and more refugees and thereby irreversibly destabilizing Europe – once again. I hope that the incorrigible lunacy of this country will not affect your feelings for me once things turn even worse. [My friends] took the bus this morning to go back to Hamburg, avoiding the railway station and the trains which were congested by migrants. For the first time I am thinking about buying a car; public transport has become more and more unpleasant during the last years.’

    David Cameron has repeatedly stated in the past that we are a Christian country

    Neither this country nor Germany will be Christian for much longer if do-gooders such as yourself get their way:

    ‘Er rechnet damit, „dass mindestens 80 Prozent“ der in diesem Jahr erwarteten 800.000 Flüchtlinge Muslime seien.’—Der Tagesspiegel

    ‘[The chairman of the Central Council of Muslims] reckons “that at least 80 per cent” of the 800,000 refugees this year are Muslim.’

    • Powerdaddy

      Idiot.

    • Once they have their official EU passports, I would hazard a guess that around half of what Germany takes on will travel to the UK.

      • CliveM

        Based on what?

  • Malcolm Smith

    Whenever someone talks about taking more refugees, the first thing you should ask them is: “How many are you prepared to take?” If Germany is prepared to take 800,000, is Britain. If so, will it slam the door on the 800,001st? This is something the do-gooders hardly ever think about. Perhaps in the back of their minds is the idea that it’s all just a temporary phase. It isn’t. Refugee-ism is a bottomless pit. So, unless someone is prepared to answer the question, “How many?”, he should be disqualified from the discussion.
    Mind you, I have noticed that Poland and (I think) Denmark, have recently announced that they are prepared to take refugees from Syria – but only Christians.

  • Busy Mum

    “Most of us will never get close to having the faintest idea what it’s like to see our country torn apart……”

    Some of us do have a very good idea of what it’s like to see our country torn apart – secondary school pupils who are supposed to be ‘British’ are quite brazen about their distaste for their own heritage (what they know, or think they know of it) and openly despise the very idea of national identities, especially their own.

    I refer to the indigenous youth.

  • CliveM

    Just been reading an article on this in the Washington Post. In it’s nicely liberal way, it attempts to create a link between the deaths of 2600 refugees and UK policy, particularly having a go at the hypocrisy of our “hard hearted” tabloids and their response to the photo.

    I found it interesting. Apart from agreeing with the accusation of hypocrisy I couldn’t help but get annoyed with the insinuation that if only we were more generous in our response to this crisis ie accept more immigrants, somehow the tragedy of this child could be avoided.

    Let me say it is a tragedy and I agree something has to be done, simply sitting on this side of the Channel, saying no entry, I don’t believe is enough.

    BUT the dishonesty of the article pisses me off big time. It’s the Left all over. They take a real tragedy but draw a deliberately false conclusion to underpin their argument. This child didn’t die because of UK immigration policy (even if it is wrong) it died because of war, violence, greed and spineless politicians (including our own) frightened to address this problem properly. Only direct action will save lives, our politicians are too afraid and venal to say this, even less act upon it and besides papers like the Washington Post would oppose it.

    It’s not only British ‘hard hearted’ tabloids that are hypocrites.

    • James60498 .

      I have no intention of reading the Washington Post

      Just wondering though, did it suggest that we might put these people on planes and send them to America?

      • CliveM

        No, probably an accidental omission.

  • Demon Teddy Bear

    There is no “refugee crisis”. These are not refugees. Refugees go to the nearest safe place. Economic migrants head for the richest place.
    That it is necessary to say this obvious truth – and I have been abused in an incredible manner for saying it – shows that we are dealing with a propaganda onslaught by the traitor element in our society. To frame a mass influx of unskilled migrants as “refugees”, purely in order to silence opposition, is treachery and nothing else.
    We all know that our land is bursting with immigrants. Wages have fallen, benefits bills are huge, hospitals and schools are full – and those who paid for them must get to the back of the queue.
    We need to get control of the mass media. It cannot be left in the hands of those who intend to hand us over to vast numbers of ruthless gold-seekers.
    And we need to stop kowtowing to this moral intimidation by those who would happily sell our children into slavery.

    • bluedog

      Exactly. One dead baby and logic goes out of the window. There is absolutely no limit to the numbers of those who would potentially emigrate to the West if able to do so. At which point there would be no ‘West’. Boris Johnson can see the danger.

      • CliveM

        Boris Johnson wants Turkey to join the EU.

        • Anton

          The EU *is* a turkey!

          • CliveM

            Well that’s probably true!

      • Anton

        A long time ago Boris Johnson said something in public that was close to “If the Quran really does say those things then it is obviously unacceptable.” (I say “close to” because the quote has been removed from his Wikipedia page – surprise, surprise – but it will be findable with enough effort on google.) Once elected as mayor he started banging on instead about how proud he was to have ancestors who were Muslim (either one grandparent or one great-grandparent, I forget which). I also remember his TV programme in which he said that Jesus was “said to” have done certain things in Jerusalem but Muhammad “did” make his night journey there.

        Do not trust Boris Johnson.

        • CliveM

          Not as far as I could throw him.

        • Boris is Mercurial.

        • bluedog

          Fair point. But Johnson’s reaction on this occasion does suggest, as does the current silence of Cameron, that even the Bullingdon Boys can now see the dangers. The migrant crisis ensures that Turkey’s prospects of joining the EU are zero. Turkey is a useful buffer state that needs to be kept semi-detached, whatever Boris’ emotional inclinations.

    • CliveM

      And what a coincidence. Prior to ISIS and the civil war in Syria, there where no economic refugees and suddenly with the arrival of both ISIS and the civil war, we have millions of them wanting to get out, get their grubby hands on our benefits an steal all our jobs.

      Can’t think why that would be.

      • Anton

        Reduce benefits and solve two problems at once?

        • CliveM

          If these were economic migrants it might. But I think Sister Tiberius is correct in this, I don’t believe the majority are.

          • Anton

            But as Teddy Bear said, “Refugees go to the nearest safe place. Economic migrants head for the richest place.”

          • CliveM

            Apologies but I think he was talking a load of cack. You don’t risk your life, or your childrens lives over a benefit cheque.

          • Listening to the migrants being interviewed they are all under the impression that Western European countries are all like paradise.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            AFAIUI, the dead boy (and family) set out from Bodrum in Turkey. So not in Syria, not in a country hostile to Muslims, not in any danger.

            So why did they set out to sea?

          • CliveM

            AFAIUI No idea what that means.

            The boy and the family were originally from Syria. They tried to get to Kos from Bodram. They were not frm Bodram.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            “AFAIUI No idea what that means”
            Standard ‘net abbreviation for at least 20 years, here’s a fish and fishing rod:
            http://www.acronymfinder.com/As-Far-As-I-Understand-It-%28AFAIUI%29.html

            “The boy and the family were originally from Syria. They tried to get to Kos from Bodram. They were not frm Bodram.”
            Which is what I said. What point are you trying to make?

      • sarky

        You have answered your own question. Just Prehaps they are not economic migrants but genuine refugees.

        • CliveM

          You do know I was being sarcastic?

          Yes I believe they are in the main genuine, although I wouldn’t exclude the possibility of an ISIS infiltrator.

  • sarky

    Prior to Tony Blair opening up our borders to the whole of Europe, we would have had the capacity to help. That capacity is now gone. In order for us to help now, we need to stop the free movement of Europeans and repatriate those here to free up resources. As that is not going to happen, then I’m afraid we have no option but to stand back.

    • Anton

      Europeans is not the main problem.

      • sarky

        800,000 Poles alone are here. If they were not, that is a hell of alot of incredibly desperate people we could help.

        • CliveM

          I have no problems with the Poles. As far as I can see they are generally an asset.

          Of course as I’ve said elsewhere for me divvying up the refugees is neither the issue or solution (although we could take more), other solutions are needed.

        • Anton

          A report called The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK by University College London academics Christian Dustmann and Tomasso Frattini, published in the Economic Journal in 2014, found that migrants from outside the European Economic Area – mainly from India, Pakistan and Commonwealth countries in Africa – consumed £117.9 billion more between 1995 and 2011 in public expenditure (NHS costs, welfare, education etc) than they contributed in taxes. Migrants from the EU were beneficial to the economy, in contrast. At the time of writing of that report, Britain was granting citizenship to more immigrants than any other European country.

          Some 40% of Britain’s 3m Muslims consistently say in polls that they would, in principle, rather live under Sharia law. Could not a swap be arranged?

          • sarky

            I thought that report had pretty much been discredited?

            The biggest difference is that immigrants from outside the EU have had to jump through hoops and pay the costs involved in getting their visas, you also have to
            remember that a large proportion come here as students. Immigrants from the EU just have to turn up and are automatically given access to our benefit system.

            I also don’t give a rats arse about the religion of the people desperately fleeing here. We have one of the worlds largest humanitarian crisis happening on our doorstep and it’s quite obvious you don’t give a s**t. This should have nothing to do with economics, but everything about doing the right thing. Unfortunately the EU has seen to it that that we have been left pretty much impotent in the help we can offer.

          • Anton

            I give a shit, but I also give a shit about our grandchildren who will live with the grandchildren of immigrants as equals – and if the religion of the immigrants commands takeover then there is a problem, isn’t there?

            Please say more about that report being discredited – I hadn’t heard that.

          • sarky

            I hope my grandchildren do live as equals (because we are aren’t we?)

            Why is it that it takes religion to stop you seeing these people as fellow humans and only as muslims?

          • Anton

            They might be born as equals but not end up as them.

          • sarky

            Think you may require a reality check, either that or stop reading the Daily Mail.

          • Anton

            I’ve more informative things to read than the Daily Mail, in particular the Quran and the demographics stats including birth rates. Do the sums.

          • James Bolivar DiGriz

            Perhaps because a significant %age of Muslims regard everyone else as not fellow humans.

          • Busy Mum

            Why would you perceive saving as many lives as possible in an ‘over-populated world’ to be ‘doing the right thing’?

          • sarky

            Please go away!

          • Phil R

            It is a fair point that most athiests Inc you it seems don’t like your own answer

            Not fashionable of course….

            Yet. But the time will come as it always does with athiests

          • sarky

            What????

          • Phil R

            I am referring to Busy Mum’s post above

          • Powerdaddy

            I thought this was a ‘Christian’ website. I must be mistaken. ..

          • Busy Mum

            You are mistaken in interpreting my comment; I am curious to know why non-Christians like Sarky believe savings lives is so important.

          • sarky

            Because I respect my fellow human beings, more than you it would seem.

          • Powerdaddy

            Empathy?

            A wild guess.

            Would you rather be dead?

            So you can play with God in heaven?

            What kind of person wouldn’t want to save life if you have a choice?

            Weird question.

          • sarky

            Its the total lack of understanding of atheism. According to the religious we are all Pol Pot and Stalin in waiting, we have no god so we have no morals. We are driven by survival of the fittest and do not possess empathy.

            All seems a bit ironic when you read the posts on here.

          • Inspector General

            Last sentence. You don’t have a bloody clue, do you…

          • Anna

            Actually, this is not ‘a total lack of understanding of atheism’ – but a presupposition among some religious people that individuals holding atheistic views are less capable of empathy and compassion. The distinction is important, because the killing of millions in many ‘godless’ regimes can seem like the practical outworking of theories such as the survival of the fittest – that many atheists believe.

            The reality, of course, is more complex.

            Many atheists are capable of great kindness and generosity, while many Christians can be harsh, judgmental and bitter. This is because we are created in the image of God, but sin has tarnished his likeness in all of us – to varying extents. Therefore, many unbelievers can be nice people with tender
            consciences, but Christ in his mercy may draw to himself people who probably lack such desirable qualities (“I have come for the sick, not the healthy”).

            Many Christians start at a lower point on ‘the ladder of righteousness’ (I may put it like that) than others; yet no one is high enough on the ladder to match the righteousness of God. We all fall short, but the grace of God that draws us to him.
            (Romans 2:13-15, 3:23 and 1Corinthians 1:26-30)

            It is expected that those who come to Christ will mature and become more Christ-like with time, being encouraged by his love and peace. The same offer and hope is held out to all, and all are welcome.

          • sarky

            I think some on here haven’t even got the ladder out of the shed yet!!

          • Anna

            The ladder was never in the shed. It was let down from heaven.

          • Busy Mum

            There are many people out there who are proactively choosing to spend their lives taking the lives of others, yet alone going out of their way to save lives. You tell me what kind of people they are.

          • Powerdaddy

            Religious nut bags who would gloat at the death of a three year old? There are quite a few on this very thread.
            Do I get a bonus point for stating the obvious?

          • bluedog

            If you don’t worry about the religion and cultural inclinations of immigrants to the UK you are extremely unwise.

          • sarky

            No, I just dont fall for all the scaremongering and hysteria.

          • bluedog

            So, the FGM, the honour killing, the marriage of older men to minors (girls), the polygamy, all just scaremongering and hysteria?

            Or are these characteristics of adherents of the religion of peace coveted by the atheist community too?

          • sarky

            Only a few priests are kiddy fiddlers, does that make all christians peadophiles?

          • bluedog

            What do you think, sarky?

          • sarky

            Exactly! And not all muslims want to kill you or impose their religion on you.

          • bluedog

            In that case they are not Muslims. The Koran commands that Islam must dominate and that Muslims must spread the word of the prophet. You have transposed your own ideas on to Muslims because their ideas are incomprehensible to you. Of course, you will never be able to admit that this is not the case.

          • sarky

            Im not transposing anything. I’m just going from talking to muslim friends.

          • bluedog

            ‘I’m just going from talking to muslim friends.’

            An unsubstantiated assertion, but let’s imagine the conversation.

            ‘I say, Ahmed, old bean, any truth in the rumour that you Muzzies want to take over the country and kill the infidels who will not submit to Islam once you’ve got the numbers?’

            ‘O no, sarky, how can you think ever that? By the Beard of the Prophet we would never consider such a thing, let alone do it. We respect the British way of life’.

            Fortunately for Ahmed and the rest of his co-religionists, your statement merely proves the truth of the old adage, there’s one born every minute. It really seems your mind has been completely colonised by Marcusian multi-culti ideology and that you cannot identify taqqiya when you hear it.

          • Ivan M

            Migrants from India and Pakistan have a habit of bringing their parents, grannies and grampaws who then end up consuming whatever they give in taxes. Migrants from Europe and places such as HK have their own quite generous systems back home and therefore have no such temptations. In general the latter tend to have higher IQs and accordingly need less help.

  • Just listen to yourselves.

    Yes, I’m biased. My father, his brother and cousin, and his father all came here from Poland as refugees after WWII. Between them they gave a huge amount to this country, and remained grateful to it all their lives. Nobody – and I mean nobody – tries to cross the Mediterranean on a leaking boat with young children for any other reason than fear for their lives. You have to think that the alternative is worse than the possibility of drowning before you get on that boat.

    I’m getting offline here. I’m going to pack a load more boxes of clothes and shoes to go to Calais on the next convoy from Cambridge. The Inspector can assume that this is my womanly weakness again. Maybe it’s just my frustration at seeing this whole bloody disaster that I can’t do anything about. But I will give Sarky credit for seeing that our inability to help is linked to the uncontrolled economic immigration we’ve been forced to accept as members of the EU. A few suitcases of clothes are an utterly inadequate response. But I simply don’t know what else to do.

    • Anton

      God bless you for that. But there is the person-to-person response, which is voluntary, and there is the political response, ie what we would like our government to do, and it is mainly that which is being discussed here.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      The desperation shown by some refugees and the risks they take does not always reflect their situation. Those risking their lives to get through the channel tunnel are not fleeing France for their lives. Many of those from Syria have already reached the safety of Turkey. So why the desperation to reach Western Europe? I am in favour of providing humanitarian support for these people, and it seems those in Calais are already getting quite a bit of help. But as you allude to in your comment, if this country becomes so culturally changed by mass immigration, then our charitable values will disappear. Look how little the Muslim nations are doing to help their co-religionists.

      My wife and daughter are also from overseas and came here through the proper channels, which involved paying a lot of money to the Home Office. They have fully integrated into the British way of life, even when they don’t agree with it. However, they are both appalled by our impotence in controlling the flow of those who feel we are the world’s refugee reception centre and we owe them everything for free.

    • Busy Mum

      I think you are making two assumptions, both possibly unwarranted:
      1. That the recipients of your largesse will be as grateful to you as your ancestors were to the Brits of 70 years ago.
      2. That the migrants regard their children in the same light that westerners do (which, from my observations, is bordering on idolatry in some cases).

      • sarky

        Do you actually think before you post?? Once again you are being totally small minded and ridiculous.

        • She does make valid points though.

          • sarky

            Really?

          • We idolise children more in western culture because we have less of them. Other cultures breed for disaster, pestilence and to ensure survival of their culture.

          • sarky

            Is there no end to the ignorence on here?

          • Busy Mum

            Obviously not – it is spelt ignorance :))

          • sarky

            Not ignorance – crap predictive text.

        • Busy Mum

          Oh? Please enlarge?

      • Anna

        Your first point is valid, but regarding the second, could you please elaborate on how non-westerners regard their children? Surely you are an expert?

        • Busy Mum

          I do not know how they regard their children but I doubt they worship their offspring to the same extent that many westerners do. My point being that whilst westerners may find it impossible to imagine transporting their children in a leaky boat, it could be that the migrants see their children as slightly more dispensable than we do, especially if the greater cause warrants it.

          • Anna

            “…it could be that the migrants see their children as slightly more dispensable than we do…”

            Cultures may differ in many ways, but I think it would be normal to assume (as Sister Tiberia has) that people everywhere have the usual parental instincts. People living in countries with no generous welfare systems pay for their children’s health care and education from their own pockets; save up for their children’s future (rather than holidays) and often work through difficult family situations to ensure their children’s well being.

          • CliveM

            Absolutely.

          • Busy Mum

            Exactly – their children are part of the economy rather than people with umpteen rights to be indulged and cosseted.

          • Anna

            Making sacrifices for your children proves that you love them and want the best for them; and most mothers love their children as much as you do. It is judgmental to imagine that mothers elsewhere regard their children as part of the economy; although it is considered right in ‘less’ civilised parts of the world to show your gratitude for parents by taking care of them in their old age.

          • Anna

            Making sacrifices for your children proves that you love them and want the best for them and most mothers love their children as much as you do. It is judgmental to imagine that mothers elsewhere regard their children as part of their economy; although it is considered right in ‘less’ civilised parts of the world to show your gratitude for parents by taking care of them in their old age.

          • Busy Mum

            Well, that is how it used to be over here when the UK was civilised.
            I agree with you that the way the elderly are treated over here is scandalous and not worthy of ‘civilisation’ but surely failure to care for one’s aged parents must mean one is lacking in gratitude i.e. the child-centred philosophy of the west must be inferior to those of elsewhere.
            I am not being judgmental – I am saying that elsewhere mothers are getting something right which the west is getting wrong.
            If an eight-year old who walks several miles a day to collect water ends up as an adult caring for his parents, that child is a far superior specimen to the child who grew up with water on tap, and all the technology that money can but chucks his parents in a home once they are of no material use to him.

          • sarky

            What, like your rights you mean?

          • CliveM

            Considering the outpouring of news we get about child abuse sexual and physical, that happens in this country, why do you believe we in the west love our children more. A mother loves her child everywhere.

          • Busy Mum

            I didn’t say we love them more – idolatry is not the same thing as love.

  • Anton

    I know that Gillan is talking mainly about what we can do, ie Brits, as individuals and as a nation, response, but this passing comment of his is worth noting: “Saudi Arabia (population 28.9 million) and other Arab countries have firmly closed their doors.”

    There is a telling cartoon from Saudi about the hypocrisy of that, included in this article:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34132308

    The cartoon shows a Muslim refugee knocking at Europe’s door while, from behind a Saudi door that is barricaded shut, a voice shouts to Europe, “Why don’t you let them in, you discourteous people?!”

    • CliveM

      Yes interesting isn’t it. Do you the Saudi Arabia may have some alterior motive?

      • Anton

        If you are suggesting that closing their door forces more Muslims to Europe, that certainly suits them but I think it is secondary to the desire not to share their oil wealth with a large number of penniless people. Moreover their choice to pump more oil and force its price down is not obviously having the desired effect of forcing US frackers out of business and might rebound on the Saudi economy.

        • bluedog

          There is at least one economic commentary that suggests Saudi Arabia will be bankrupt in 2020. The slump in the oil price has reduced Saudi revenues and they are depleting their reserves to maintain the customary largesse showered upon the royal family and ummah alike. Once the money has gone, who will lend them a dirham?

  • Anna

    Europe cannot solve this refugee crisis on its own. It is necessary to engage with the wider international community to find solutions.

    One solution to this problem might be for western governments to continue rescue and relief efforts, take in Christian refugees from the ME and encourage (in all sorts of ways) safer Muslim countries to find room for their co-religionists. No one in the ME will find such ‘discriminatory’ approach strange, only the Muslims in Europe. However, a larger Muslim population in Western Europe will have too many unmanageable consequences in the long term – remember Lebanon.

    Good intentions need to be tempered with common sense.

    • CliveM

      Anna

      Good post.

      • Anna

        Thank you.
        Anna

    • Anton

      There is no such thing as the “international community”. More like a “clash of civilizations”.

      • Anna

        Perhaps you are right. All the more reason to engage with others and find a way out. A unilateral approach means taking all the burden on yourself.

    • Merchantman

      Remember Lebanon…….Yes indeed and the sea front at Brighton will probably be as like Beirut as they are likely to find.

  • IanCad

    Cameron and Hague. Our representatives. The collective character of our nation elected through the democratic process. Should we not be responsible for the decisions of those whom we appoint to act on our behalf?
    Both of these very unwise political adolescents engineered the ouster of Gaddafi. Got pretty darn close to doing the same with Assad. In any event they gave substantial succor and encouragement to those, who today, are causing such dreadful outrages in the two aforementioned nations.
    I have to believe that we should pay for our mistakes. Whether it should take the form of offering refuge to the Syrians – or sending in the tanks. Something must be done.
    For a start – we should distinguish between the dispossessed and the opportunistic.

    • Busy Mum

      “The collective character of our nation elected through the democratic process.”

      Surely Cameron et al is the best argument there has ever been against democracy……. has anyone else noticed that the current popular definition of democracy is ‘everyone having their voice heard’, ‘having your say’ etc etc What’s democratic about the majority having their say but the minority getting their way? That’s how it seems to be on most fronts at the moment!

    • Merchantman

      Hague has.

      • IanCad

        True MM, but he’s been booted upstairs into the HOL. When will we see the end of him?

  • Well this is one way of spreading Islam! Disperse the populations through war.

    We are full, end of, no more. It’s hard but they chose to blow 2,000 Euro on a dodgy boat trip. And possessions can easily be replaced it’s only stuff you can’t take it with you when you die anyway.

    I’m disgusted at the other Arab countries’ doors being shut, of course, this is their fault in the first instance the factions fight each other all the time. Syria
    has had a constant battle against terrorists from other factions for
    decades. We should be helping Assad.

    I would say we have got to consider the security aspect of allowing in those of a fractious nature so different to our own and who fight each other constantly. Our
    civilisation is already in decline and there are areas where sunnis
    and shias are at each others throats in the UK now.

    It’s strange, on the one hand HG is in favour of controlled immigration and yet he’s recommending we let in vast numbers of these migrants. I think HG is a soft touch for a sob story.

    • sarky

      yeah Because dead kids on a beach is just a sob story?????

      • It happens if you take such risks. Why this one?

        • sarky

          Not just this one, everyone is a tragedy.

      • Inspector General

        Man up, you. People die all the time, even children. That’s how it is…

        • CliveM

          IG, it’s hard to deny the accuracy of the statement, but it is callous nevertheless. If Martins analysis of the human condition was accurate, your comment would be right. But he isn’t right and your statement isn’t an adequate response. We can be better then that.

          • Inspector General

            Can’t see the problem Clive. Tomorrow, the tragedy of abandoned kittens…

          • CliveM

            I know you’ve got a special affinity for the feline world IG, but I personally don’t see a moral equivalency.

          • Inspector General

            You’ve led a sheltered life then…

          • CliveM

            You maybe right, but for the life of me I don’t see the relevancy of that statement!!

          • Inspector General

            Can’t you. There are a lot of people, women mainly, out there who are bothersome. One day they’ll be collecting money to pay to people smugglers to bring over those who can’t afford the journey, and the next, they’ll be shaking the tin for old cats. It’s a form of feminine stupidity in truth…

        • sarky

          Arhh thats ok then.

          • Inspector General

            That’s it. The endless circle, birth and eventually death. Some say these events take place daily. The Inspector finds it hard to believe that…

      • DanJ0

        It’s not the first time I’ve said this of course: how lucky we are to be living here in the UK at this time in history. I’d like to think we could escape to other countries ourselves if the UK ever became a local war zone or fell under an oppressive regime.

        • dannybhoy

          “. I’d like to think we could escape to other countries ourselves if the
          UK ever became a local war zone or fell under an oppressive regime.”
          Which it will do if we keep on allowing more and more refugees and migrants in, because the net effect will be that our infrastructure will be unable to cope, we will have more disparate communities living cheek by jowel with different cultural and religious values. All this will further degrade our distinct national culture and values, changing us from a nation State into a refugee camp.
          Add into the mix all the homegrown terrorists we’re struggling to cope with, plus those coming in as refugees or migrants, and you really will be seeking another place to go.
          Only,
          there probably won’t be one free nation left……

        • Merchantman

          The way its going UK will indeed be a war zone in another 20 years or so. You just don’t realise the danger of allowing numbers of these types into our ‘other Eden’. They wrecked theirs don’t let them wreck ours. But we do don’t we? The evidence is there. But thanks to turning a blind eye to the rape etc of our young, sections of the establishment, softees in general and MSM are in complete denial.

    • dannybhoy

      ISIS is driving this stampede of refugees out of the Middle East and Africa towards Europe, so its ISIS which has to be dealt with very quickly. The countries of Europe cannot cope with hundreds and thousands more, and frankly why should they?
      Europe must start making temporary safe camps in African or Middle Eastern areas that are friendly towards the West, ensuring they are safe, and have decent facilities such as health care, food, water and educational facilities.
      The West is responsible for screwing up Iraq and Afghanistan, and our military forces will now have to go in to wipe out this evil murderous mob.
      Our politicians need to accept these countries work best by dictatorships, and find suitable rulers to restore stability.
      Otherwise this evil will be coming to Europe big time.

      • Well said DB. The Syrians could be going to Iran and the Africans to Chad. Meanwhile the Saudi’s and Yanks have to stop funding ISIS. Turkey has to stop buying oil from ISIS.

      • CliveM

        I agree but they won’t. They are not even talking about it. I haven’t heard of one suggesting it.

        We and the refugees. Are being failed by our politicians.

        • dannybhoy

          David Cameron said/hinted at it this morning.

          • CliveM

            Ok missed that, thanks.

          • dannybhoy

            He said it again on Anglia News..!

          • CliveM

            Don’t get Anglia news!

            However on a serious note, as he has pretty much destroyed the army as an effective force, I wonder how he sees it being done?

          • dannybhoy

            Anglia News didn’t say..
            But that’s where he’s weak isn’t it?
            The EU was chuntering on about an integrated defence capability, which meant we would have to reduce our own capabilities. So we have because David is good boy and loves the EU. He longs to be a member of the very important inner circle. But it is obvious to all that the show is run by France and Germany, and they intend to keep this country weak and dependent.

          • CliveM

            To be honest I think the whole “let’s destroy UK forces thing” was done under his own initiative and has nothing to do with France or Germany.

    • DanJ0

      Other Arab countries’ doors are not shut. There are Syrian refugee camps spread around the region.

      • CliveM

        We’ll the Gulf states aren’t being helpful.

        • DanJ0

          That’s because they’re Sunni, and Syria is both Shia and an enemy.

          • CliveM

            Enemy of Saudi but not all the Gulf States.

            But yes there are tensions.

      • Merchantman

        And that’s where they should stay then.

  • Albert

    Isn’t the problem that we have been so busy letting in migrants that we have convinced ourselves we have no space for refugees? I would suggest that we turn that around and prioritise refugees over migrants of less urgent types.

    • Inspector General

      How about prioritising the 2 million indigenous on social housing lists…

      • Albert

        In a way, that’s sort of my point. It seems to me that no country can let in more people than they can properly care for, without diminishing the well being of the people already there. Thus there must be a limit to the number of people that can come in. And if that is the case, then I think we prioritise those who are fleeing war etc.

  • DanJ0

    I expect that photo will be one of those which changes the course of history.

    • CliveM

      Perhaps, or perhaps the ‘history’ will simply be a lot of politicians worrying about the focus groups, looking for the next sound bite.

  • Inspector General

    Good day to you Scott. What are you about this time? Ah, we’re hypocrites today are we. Let’s see…

    Now, you’d think refugees would hang on to their documents stating who they are and where they are from at all cost, would you? You’d also expect a refugee to seek refuge in the first friendly country they arrived at, and be damn grateful for asylum, wouldn’t you?

    And yes, you’d be right. So hands up those refugees in Europe who have their papers and are still in the first friendly country they came to?

    Come on you lot, didn’t you hear the question. Or perhaps you did…

    We can also add a further question. Hands up all you refugees who hope to return home when it is safe to do so? Is no one listening? I said….oh don’t bother…

    Hands up all those refugees who are concerned that tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, or even millions of your countrymen may undermine the host country and lead to social disorder as well as a big fall in average living standards. Yes, you sir, you want to say something. What’s that, you say that’s not your problem?

    One last question. Hands up all you refugees who have relatives at arms in your wars. Silly question really, should be asking you how many of your relatives are in arms. So it does look like your problems are all your own making then, yet you expect Europe to take you in? Well, muslims need not apply. To be honest, we don’t want you bringing your evil ways here. Even if you are aged 3.

  • Inspector General

    LATEST: The Inspector now understands the bastards are fighting with the Hungarian police at a rail station. Absolutely bloody amazing. They haven’t been here for five minutes and they are running riot…These people need to learn civilisation, then perhaps they wouldn’t need to escape the mess their own races have caused in the places where they belong…Turn these appalling types away and stop them doing the very same in Europe.

    Throw them out NOW!

    • dannybhoy

      It’s Invasion by Desperation. Exactly the same thing has happened in the States, where they have something like 13,000,000 illegal immigrants (mainly Mexicans) living and working in the States. Obama’s plan is to grant an amnesty.
      Europe’s plan is much more sophisticated, it’s to panic, and if that fails blame the Christians. What a sham it is when the EUleaders condemn countries like Hungary who foolishly and naively take the EU’s rules seriously…..

      • Inspector General

        All this migration has the whiff of mass hysteria about it. An attribute mainly associated with stupid people…

    • Dreadnaught

      But I dont want to be safe in Greece or Italy or Hungary – I want to be safe with my people in Mayfair or St John’s wood at a push – I mention too plasma tv yes? ,not for for me – for my children so Tellytubby can make them happy again – a humanity right No?

      • Inspector General

        …and spare room so cousin Mohamed can visit.

        • dannybhoy

          shouldn’t that be “rooms”?

        • Dreadnaught

          The spare room is the Prayer Room already – him want own pad as you say.

          • Inspector General

            You have gays in London? Our boys, they like to throw stone…

          • Dreadnaught

            Now thats taking it too far Iggy and you are back on your other hobbyhorse – I’m out!

          • Inspector General

            You got an uptick from DanJ0, you underserving rotter. One should say that the stone comment is apt as one believes it’s a tradition in the migrants lands to pelt the poor unfortunates with the things…

          • Dreadnaught

            Smirk!

          • Inspector General

            Hang on, don’t you want the tall buildings part too?

    • dannybhoy

      I don’t think they’re appalling Inspector, and I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, especially the children and women. But I do agree that they will live in Europe as they have in their home countries, and if they believe in FMG that will become a bigger problem,. Ditto forced marriage, teaching homosexuals to fly from tall buildings, practising their oratorical skills in condemning the decadent West , and agitating for Shari’ia Law to be established….
      Such larks, Pip old chap!

      • Inspector General

        They do SOUND appalling….

  • Inspector General

    This is probably going to be deleted, but for the record the following criticism is officially lodged…

    The Inspector predicted this business was going to get very dirty, and what have we today. The veneration of a single child’s corpse. Now THAT is dirty. Why? Because it’s being used as gift to get a dubious point over, and if we don’t agree with the sentiment expressed, we are hypocrites, though one cannot see how that word can be applied in the context. Unless, of course, you’re back in the schoolyard with an adolescence’s lack of ability to express themselves. Could we have saved his life? Surely the British government could have chartered the Queen Mary II and sent it to Libya, or wherever, to pick up the lad, his family and thousands of other families with children and brought them to Southampton? Or perhaps individuals who dream their dreams can take a bit more responsibility for themselves and their children’s welfare. After all, if they don’t, who else is there, certainly not us!

    • dannybhoy

      Well said.
      This is surely a perversion, ‘a warped apprehension of humanitarian aid….” as someone recently said on another thread……… ;0)

    • chiefofsinners

      This is pretty much the truth, Inspector.
      If I set to sea with my children in a flimsy boat, knowing it was likely that we would all die, I would be arrested and my children would be taken into care. If they drowned I would be put in prison. A million quid would be spent on a serious case review, which would come up with a load more paperwork for police, social workers and teachers to fill in.

      • CliveM

        But then CofS, you don’t live in a war zone. It makes a difference to how you view the choices you have.

        Neither do you have IS, who btw would see. You as a heretic and ripe for one of their ‘charming’ little videos.

        • chiefofsinners

          The Syrian government currently controls the entire coast of the country. Other boats are coming from Libya and Tunisia. No-one is actually fleeing a war zone.

          • CliveM

            I think you find many have been. I’m not sure I have heard any serious questioning of the fact that Syria is in a state of civil war. Jordan and Turkey have vast numbers of refugees that say otherwise.

          • chiefofsinners

            The border with Jordan is largely held by rebels and the border with Turkey is held by a combination of rebels, ISIS and Kurds. That is why there are so many refugees crossing the border, and is also the reason why those in government held areas are using boats – they can’t cross the war zones to get to the border. There’s a useful map here: http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/desyracuse-syria-civil-war-1-june-2015_41967#7/34.334/40.551

            Those in Tunisia and Libya have come from African war zones but are not actually in direct danger when they set to sea.

            One thing that today’s photograph might accomplish is to change the way migrants view the choices they have. It may save many lives.

        • bluedog

          Forty years ago it was the Syrian government that backed the Muslim factions in Christian majority Lebanon. The result was a civil war that saw the sophisticated and cosmopolitan city of Beirut reduced to rubble, and many of the Christians fled to the West.

          Now there is a Muslim civil war in Syria between Sunni and Shia with yet more emigration to the West. It really beggars belief that these people who are taught to hate the West by their priests immediately put their hands in the West once their beliefs fail them. Yet on arrival in the West they demand to replicate their previous, failed, societies. Those EU nations who will only accept Christian settlers are on the right track. According to Gatestone, 80% of the migrants are Muslim.

          They should be returned to the paradise of Dar al islam.

    • Politically__Incorrect

      Good point about parental responsibility Inspector. I heard on the news that the family was already settled in Turkey but decided to move on to Europe and paid a trafficker £4000 for the 10 mile ride across the sea. The father surely realised he was dealing with dodgy people who have as much regard for human life as a jihadist. It infuriates me frankly when people try to blame our country for the plight of these people, as if we threw the kid in the water ourselves.

      • Inspector General

        And that information, PI, should bring a lot of people on this site to conclude they’ve been duped. But then, not all…

      • bluedog

        Have read a report, and can’t find it, that the father wanted to get his teeth fixed in the EU on the NHS equivalent!

    • Show some respect for this dead, innocent child, Inspector.

      • Inspector General

        Shove off Jack…

        • Your attitude towards the death of this child is a disgrace. You piss off.

          • bluedog

            Oh dear.

          • Inspector General

            Just out of interest, what would you say to the father if you meet him. Come on, we are all agog…

          • Jack is saying show some respect for the dead, innocent child. At least express some regret or grief about this. But then, he’s Muslim isn’t he and he’s a member of an uncivilised, lesser race.

          • Inspector General

            It still surprises the Inspector, even after all this time, how little worth the lesser achieving races place on life. Their own, their children and people they don’t know but still dislike, such as us. (qv suicide bombing)

          • … and you show no respect for this child. None.

          • Inspector General

            What’s with this respect business. Explain it will you, why some muslim boy who never reached manhood is to be respected for dying thanks to the culpability of his father…

          • It’s called respect for life, Inspector. You know, respect for all people because they are all made in the image and likeness of God and each have individual immortal souls. Then, you show no comprehension of any of this in your inane ramblings.

          • Inspector General

            Yes, alas. He will never know what it is to ‘play’ in a Western Jewish graveyard like so many of his ilk…

          • … and so, in effect, you mock and rejoice at his early death.

          • Inspector General

            Sod off Jack. He’s just ‘another’ for God’s sake…

          • … as Inspector Haw Haw said, taking the Lord’s name in vain, as he passed by on the other side of the road.
            Good night.

          • Inspector General

            Look, if you are so enthralled by the late lad, write to his family. They might send you a bone, which you can build a shrine around and venerate in your privacy without bothering the rest of us…

          • Powerdaddy

            You Prick.

          • Inspector General

            You know what happens to trolls on this site…

          • Powerdaddy

            You know what happens to a false Christian (YOU) when he comes face to face with God?

          • bluedog

            Oh dear Oh dear.

          • Powerdaddy

            Indeed.

          • … pricks can be useful, Powerdaddy.

          • No, instead Jack will pray for him, that he is at peace in the loving arms of his Creator. You carry on crowing, Haw Haw.

          • DanJ0

            With a putdown like that you should join us on the dark side!

          • He did.

          • Powerdaddy

            lol

          • Martin

            HJ

            Did the father show respect for the child to risk his life like that?

          • What does that matter? What value do you think God, His Father, placed on his life?

          • Martin

            HJ

            Remember, unless he was saved God isn’t his father.

          • And was there any chance of this in your perverse theological world, Martin?

            You’d not only have him dead but also in Hell.

          • Martin

            HJ

            Mine is the theology of the Bible. As for whether a child is in Hell:

            Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? And the LORD said, If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.
            (Genesis 18:25-26 [ESV])

          • Do you have much success as an evangelist, Martin?

          • Martin

            HJ

            I’m not an evangelist, but if I were I’d say that it is God who saves, not me.

          • Good job too.

          • CliveM

            Sometimes there seems to be very little Christ in your Christianity.

          • Martin

            Clive

            So prove me wrong from Scripture.

          • sarky

            And people wonder why I’m an atheist

  • Gy1aa

    His Grace has done us a real favour in calling attention to what we have become and which the majority of comments all too depressingly confirm. If representative they show what a self centred, compassion-lacking society we have become, deeply unwilling to face the neighbour obligations of the gospel and a desperation .to find any reason to deny any obligations in the face of extraordinary ordinary human suffering. Its all the fault of someone else: ISIS, various Middle Eastern governments, Tony Blair, the refugees themselves, even the journalist who took the photo of a drowned child. Jesus is fiercely critical of hypocrites and I fear that we are seeing a mass example of hypocrisy
    To be constructive:
    I think that there is no one who does not think that there should be limits on immigration to this country.
    Most of us accept that there is a valid distinction to be made between economic migrants and refugees/asylum seekers, not least because we originated and are party to the distinction.
    This is a European issue if only because this is where the refugees want to come and it has to be resolved on a shared European basis
    What might be the constructive approaches:
    – stop the rhetoric of fear and abuse of migrants. They are doing no more than any of us would seek to do in their situation. To seek to better oneself and one’s family is a good motivation.
    – accept that this is a European issue and that we are as much involved in the causes and remedies as any other European country
    – Deploy far more effective resources to the processing of immigration claims; if the delay between arrival and decision could be reduced greatly then some of the issues would be eased. I have an economic migrant in my parish who has waited for a decision for two years with no right to work or benefit in the meantime
    – and to the churches, show some leadership in this situation: call for a day of prayer and action
    – offer hospitality to those who have arrived and are destitute and traumatised, especially, yes especially as churches, to Christians
    – love the Lord our God with all our heart and mind and strength and our neighbour as ourself

    • Inspector General

      You got room to take in an immigrant family? Don’t forget now, they’re probably going to be muslims (as they are the chief wreckers of civilisation) so no pork products around or alcohol either. You’ll insult them. What was that, not your personal problem you say. Yes you’re right. Why should you put yourself out when you can outshop to somebody else….

      • Gy1aa

        Shame on you. Muslims, Samaritans. Jews – they are all human beings. and the answer to your implied question is yes, at this moment in my home and in Germany and Austria some 400 families have been given shelter by individuals. It’s what we do – how about you? what do you do apart from spend time writing negative comments on blogsites?

        • Anton

          Earn money for the government to tax and waste.

          • The Inspector probably ‘works’ for a government agency of some sort. Backroom paper pusher in the DWP is Jack’s guess.

          • Anton

            I was referring to myself, actually. I’m keeping clear of tonight’s spat between you two.

        • … drinks copious amounts of whiskey and shows an unhealthy interest in the sexual activities of homosexuals.

        • Inspector General

          Make sure you lock your bedroom door. By the way, Samaritans WERE Jews, oh clever one…

  • Sybaseguru

    As we already have 8m immigrants (+ their children born since they arrived), I’m not sure we should feel guilty about this. No wonder we are short of NHS beds, schools, homes and the roads are full. Allowing for illegals we will probably add 1% of our population this year due to immigrants. Maybe we should repatriate the Foreign aid and call it “Foreigners in UK aid” and spend it on the NHS.

  • chiefofsinners

    We can very easily accommodate immigrants. Last year we took nearly 300,000. But if we want to help Syrians then we have to say ‘no’ to someone else less deserving. Like EU economic migrants for instance.
    Vote ‘Leave’ in the referendum and start helping the people who really need us.

  • Pubcrawler

    I don’t know if anyone else has yet seen this interview with a relative in Canada, but it adds a little information re the motivation in this case. Some might find it, well, surprising, even enlightening:

    • The BBC had the Aunt on but edited out the bit where she explained about the father wanting to come to Europe to get his teeth done with dentures and implants.

      • Anton

        There is no justification for all of the license fee to go to one broadcaster.

    • chiefofsinners

      Unbelievable. The only thing more cynical than what this video reveals is the way our beloved BBC has misrepresented it.

    • IanCad

      “Felony Child Endangerment” would be the appropriate charge.

  • Inspector General

    Having abused the Hungarian police, anyone know if the migrants have attacked any churches yet, or defaced a synagogue?

  • Martin

    Isn’t it interesting how so much emotion can be spent over a three year old who died when the deaths of vast numbers of infants in the womb are ignored.

    And when they make it to our shores they are not refugees, for they have already passed the place where they were safe, but migrants.

    • And the difference … is? The avoidable death of any innocent, helpless child matters.

      Ps
      You wont find emotion on here amongst the Christians or many, if any, expressions of regret.

      • Martin

        HJ

        So the father of this child should not have been so stupid as to leave a place of safety for the open sea in a flimsy boat provided by dodgy characters.

        Would you let these traffickers tarmac your drive, let alone risk your children with them.

        • All besides the point …. an innocent three year old child was drowned at sea and washed up on a foreign shore.

          • Martin

            HJ

            On the contrary, all very much to the point. Think it out with your head, not your heart.

          • As well as consigning this child to Hell, you’re looking to attribute blame and culpability. Jack is focusing on the tragedy. Do you believe it is a tragedy that this child died in this way?

          • Martin

            HJ

            I’m looking at cause and effect, and from that examination we will see the solution to the problem. The child is dead, we cannot bring him back, but there is a means to prevent other dying, and it isn’t encouraging more to copy the fathers foolishness.

            You are just wringing your hands and saying how terrible it is, you have no solution.

          • There’s a time for grief and then there’s a time for analysis. All Jack is asking is that some compassion is shown for the death of this innocent child in such God awful circumstances. There’s an awful lot of gloating going on from one particular direction and Jack feels it his Christian duty to challenge this.

          • sarky

            A voice of reason at last.

          • Martin

            HJ

            I doubt that we can truly grieve over one whom we do not know. It is a sort of hypocrisy that bleats so much oveer the death of one who we didn’t know but who we are made aware of in such an emotional way.

            I know of no gloating, but I am sure that he is not the only child to have died, nor, unless a stop is put to the trafficking, will he be the last.

            And nor was he innocent, he was a sinner like all of us. Children can be as wicked in their way as any adult and it is not without reason that parents talk of the terrible twos.

          • CliveM

            God gave us a head AND a heart.

          • Martin

            Clive

            Yes, but our heads should rule our hearts. We are not to be unthinking in our sorrow and joy.

        • sarky

          You are lucky you live in a place where you will never have to make that decision.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            I can foresee the time when Christians will have to flee persecution, inflicted on them by people such as you.

          • sarky

            Don’t be stupid. It’s true, I don’t agree with you on the majority of things but I have never persecuted anyone. The joy of democracy is that we can hold opposing views.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            So how do you feel about Creation being taught alongside Evolution, or prayers in school and before council meetings?

          • sarky

            Im obviously against it, because you are forcing your belief on others. However, you are absolutely free to follow your faith in your church and in your home and onblogs such as this.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            I see, so it is OK for you to force your beliefs onto others, but I have no right to raise alternatives. Seems to me that I was right all along.

          • sarky

            Mines not a belief. It’s based on evidence.

          • Martin

            Sarky

            You have no evidence.

        • CliveM

          Martin

          The child died. As did his brother. He died because of a war he wouldn’t understand and the greed of grown ups. These problems need addressed so that ithe innocents don’t die.

          You talked about people getting worked up over the death of this child but not caring about abortion. Well that’s as bad as not caring about the fate of this child and others, and only fulminating against abortion.

          • Martin

            Clive

            Why do you think I don’t care about this child? The way to show care is to prevent the trafficking going on, not wringing your hands.

            And how many of us understand the goings on in the world, the reason for financial crashes? We are all subject to the results of men’s greed. And even small children show evidence of greed. It is part of this fallen World we live in, to which there is only one answer.

    • sarky

      Ever thought that if they all settled in the first place they arrived, that place would collapse under the weight?

      • Martin

        I doubt it.

        • sarky

          If that’s the case why are you so bothered about a few thousand coming here?

          • Martin

            Sarky

            Because it is not necessarily the right solution.

  • Inspector General

    Hmmm No Carl today. Perhaps he used the time to clean his gun…

  • grutchyngfysch

    Of the 4.1 million refugees who have fled Syria, we have resettled 216, which isn’t even enough to fill a decent sized plane.

    This is factually incorrect. The 216 figure refers to a specific project, not the total number of refugees accepted from Syria, which is around 3,300 or so over the last two years (it’s closer to 5,000 over the last five).

  • IanCad

    The poor child is dead.
    The father is an idiot with dodgy teeth.
    Spare a thought for the Turkish policeman who carried the little boy from the sea.

    • Ivan M

      I don’t blame Mr Abdullah for trying in his desperation. He had already spent three years looking for a way out. There is no way for me to imagine what he went through. At the same time he is now planning on returning to Kobane, a town devastated because among other things, the Turks refused to let the Turkish Kurds through the border to fight the ISIS. The Turks are clearly playing a double game and more will die, unless they are brought to heel. Incidentally Kobane, in Arabic apparently means something like spring of the Arabs, as in the Arab Spring. As the wag who pointed this out noted, the Devil has the best jokes.

      • David

        Yes Turkey is playing both ends simultaneously.

  • Dreadnaught

    The whole weepy thing is media driven.

  • Sandra Bee

    It´s a european catastrophy. The death of Aylan is one death of many many refugees. I don´t think that we should judge the father for his decision to take this little boat. He tried to find the other way out. But they did not let the family get out of turkey official. So they only had this way! I hope that little Aylan will wake up the heads and eyes of the politicians to to something and to do it NOW. Europe has a problem. But the problem is not the refugees. It is the war in syria. So all nations have to solve it together. We all have to talk about and we all should welcome refugees. They are the victims of this horrible situations. We HAVE to help them and we have to find a way to make them a good time whereever they want to stay. (for a while or longer. We have to stop the war and find a way to get them back home in peace-time. But as long as there isn´t peace in syria, they need to have the possibility to stay in a country, where is a chance to live in peace. In the case of Aylan and his loving family it should have been canada. IT IS A SHAME, that some documents decided about the death or life of the Kurdis. God bless Abdullah and help him through this desaster and heartbreaking time.

    • Mike Stallard

      Absolutely.
      Stalin: the death of a million people is a statistic; the death of one person is a tragedy.

  • mmac1968

    I would like the Left to honestly debate their actions and consequences. If the NUS is happy to allow radical hate preachers into universities but deny counter argument
    then the spread of an evil ideology goes unimpeded. The direct consequence is
    the export of radical zealots who are murdering Christians, men, women and
    children across the Middle East and Africa. From this savagery families flee
    and die whilst trying to escape and some, just some die at the last hurdle,
    crossing the med. We need prevention at source or we will I believe be a
    changed country in 50 years’ time. Do we honestly believe that once under Islam
    we will find peace, or just submission?

  • Mike Stallard

    You talk as if we are doing nothing. We are we are pouring money into the refugee camps. That is where these people – especially the kiddies and the women – ought to be. And there they should be given food, shelter and schooling and medicine too. We are doing our bit – and more.
    The immigrants who I know are not integrating at all. They are going to the mosque together today. What will they be taught there? They are speaking and at home in Arabic. They feel they are Muslim in a foreign land – which they are. One got seriously angry with England when he discovered it was not what he had dreamed.
    The EU which passed the declaration that anyone should be given asylum who claimed it, without any limitations, sits back and does absolutely nothing. Federica Mogherini is well out of her depth – as is the Commission.

    • dannybhoy

      “Answering criticism of the UK’s refusal to sign up to the
      UNHCR call for Western governments to accept 100,000 of the most
      vulnerable refugees, the Prime Minister’s spokeswoman said:

      “We’ve always been clear that we don’t agree with the principle of quotas
      being set; we think this is for countries to make their own decisions on
      and so this is a decision we have taken and where we will work with the
      UNHCR on it.”

      The UK government has chosen to prioritise its humanitarian efforts on offering aid to the region in the form of food, medical care and water. It has donated a total of £800 million to Syria and its neighbours, with half of the sum going towards Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq and Egypt to assist with the flood of refugees fleeing Bashar al-Assad’s regime.”

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-says-britain-will-accept-just-a-few-hundred-more-syrian-refugees-despite-4-million-looking-for-new-home-10332104.html

      (The Prime Minister has since been forced by Germany and others to change that policy.)

  • In Perfect Ignorance

    I mean no disrespect to this poor child, who as far as I can see is the innocent victim of war and the mass movement of populations that often accompanies war. But I’m truly baffled by Happy Jack’s use of the word “innocent” to describe him.

    Unless I’m mistaken, Happy Jack is a Roman Catholic. And Roman Catholics believe in a doctrine of original sin. Accordingly this poor child was not innocent, nor could he ever be. Merely by existing, he was guilty of rebellion against God, and therefore deserved death. Or at least that’s my understanding of the RC Church’s position.

    I don’t believe this myself. As far as I can see, a three year old child is innocent of any crime bad enough to warrant a death sentence. But the RC Church doesn’t think so. We’re all guilty and we’ll all die, and while we’re waiting for death to take us, our sins will make us miserable. So perhaps this child was one of the lucky ones and his time in purgatory will be short. Unless he won’t be saved because his parents were Muslims.

    I don’t know if that’s what RCs believe, but judging from the comments on this site, some Christians appear to. It’s a chilling prospect when you think about it. God created this child and placed him in a Muslim family, meaning that his early death would condemn him to hell as an unsaved soul. So in a very real way, God created this child for eternal damnation.

    This is a God that self-interest might push you to worship. But how can you love Him?

    • dannybhoy

      I went to the doctor and he checked me over.
      He concluded that my drinking was seriously damaging my liver.
      That my junk food type diet had increased my cholesterol level, and I had the beginnings of type 2 diabetes.
      Because I was seriously overweight my heart was struggling to cope, and my blood pressure was too high..

      He would then be duty bound as a doctor to insist I change my ways and adopt a healthier lifestyle, exercise more and avoid things that are harming my body.

      This is how God is with us. Not only does He know what our condition is, He knows how to make us better. Not only that but He will give us the power to make the necessary changes, and give us such joy that we will want to share it with other people.
      But neither He nor the doctor can force us to accept the diagnosis. They can only tell us what the consequences will be if we ignore it. So is it self interest that drives us to follow the doctor’s advice, or into God’s arms? Perhaps.
      But if the doctor also happens to be your father, that puts a very different complexion on it.
      God is love, and He will not force anyone to accept or respond to His diagnosis. I don’t believe the Bible teaches anyone is born evil, but once we are old enough to know the difference between right and wrong,we will choose our own way and become sinners…

      “But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.” Isaiah 59:2

    • It isn’t the Roman Catholic position.

      The Church has no settled doctrine on the eternal fate of the unbaptised or those who have not had the benefit of exposure to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We trust to the goodness and mercy of God.

      As for Jack’s use of the word “innocent”, he was referring to personal sin and culpability, not to original sin which we all inherit from Adam and which is cleansed through dying and rising again with Christ in the sacrament of baptism.

      • Dreadnaught

        More for emotive effect I suspect.

        • Is it emotive to call a dead child innocent? Jack thinks not. It was an objective statement, Dreadnaught.

          • Dreadnaught

            You believe we are born sinners – you seem to always want it both ways whatever you say. I believe the child was an innocent simply because of its age; not in your dodgy religious sense.

          • Jack was using no “dodgy religious sense” but the human term you use which refers to age. This also applies to children in the womb.
            The “religious sense” is decidedly more “dodgy” and different people hold different opinions.

    • Dreadnaught

      Agreed. Where was Allah when the little guys and their mother were put onto that whatever, nothing more seaworthy than rubber LiLo. Major Fail.

      • In Perfect Ignorance

        Allah was in the same place as God at that particular moment, and all moments. In the heads of those who believe in them, and nowhere else.

  • Dodgy Geezer

    …Why were they foolish enough to pay traffickers hundreds or even thousands of dollars to cram them onto overcrowded and unstable boats and then abandon them to the whims of the open sea?…

    If I were the father, I would not have survived if my wife and children were dying in the sea. And, judging by the number of incidents of persons dying in the sea while attempting to rescue others around our coast over the last year, I think that I speak for most Englishmen in this.

    • Dreadnaught

      They would not have gone without me for start. In Turkey the were safe from the bombs a bullets – not in ideal conditions undoubtedly – but safe.
      Refugees first require a place of safety not a choice of economy in which they would like to live as of a right.