Kill Nigel Farage 2
Church of England

Anglican clergy foment hate against Brexit Christians

 

“But the privilege of democracy is to vote. To campaign vigorously. To have robust and firm discussion,” said the Archbishop of Canterbury to those gathered for the inaugural Lambeth Palace Iftar. But his message was aimed wider: to the church and to the nation. “It is not a privilege of democracy to express hatred, to use division as an excuse for prejudice and for hate-filled attacks,” he added. And for those Remain clergy who don’t quite grasp that he was also talking to them:

We’ve seen a sharp increase in those in the last few days. Somehow people who were already of evil will – and I’m not blaming the leave campaign, I want to be quite clear about that – but people who were of evil will are using this as an excuse, a mere sham, for their hatred to be expressed.

People of ‘evil will’ is (literally) a damning designation. This evil is not ‘natural’, in the sense of earthquakes, storms, famine or disease, all of which cause untold human suffering: it is the evil which man himself causes, for it is willed by him. It is negative, destructive and devastating. It is man’s desire to oppose all that is good, noble, true and righteous. To choose and determine evil is to act contrary to the will of God, who is holy, righteous and perfect love. To be of evil will is incompatible with being Christian.

All Christians are called to be disciples and to serve God, but in the Church of England some are set apart formally for particular service in the kingdom of God. And one expects these clergy – those who preeminently pastor the flock, proclaim the word of the Lord and patiently watch for signs of new creation – to manifest the light of Christ in a darkened world. ‘Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt..‘ (Col 4:6). So when senior clergy jump on Guardian/BBC bandwagons and rebuke their fellow Christians for the sin of supporting UK-EU secession, one looks for a just and gentle mingling of grace with salt.

One looks in vain: Brexit Christians are the new lepers, and some Remainophile clergy have no interest at all in touching them.

In a heated Facebook exchange, the Dean of Manchester, the Very Rev’d Rogers Govender, accused the Rev’d Dr Giles Fraser of being racist for no reason other than that Dr Fraser finds congenial fellowship with Brexit Christians. Just let that sink in for a moment. Giles Fraser leads one of the most vibrantly mutli-ethnic churches in the Church of England. His wedding a few months ago (to an Israeli Jewess) was a multi-racial carnival of colour and Caribbean cuisine. The groom himself wore.. well, it wasn’t top hat and tails. He is a Guardian columnist, an enemy of capitalism, resister of nationalism, opponent of Establishment and the scourge of right-wing everything. But because he supports Brexit, he is judged to be ‘racist’ by the Dean of Manchester. Presumably the consummate “vile racist” is Nigel Farage, and so he is dispatched swiftly to hell.

Rogers Govender has since apologised privately to Dr Fraser: they have kissed and made up. The Dean has not apologised to the 17,410,742 Britons whom he also patently smeared as ‘racist’, let alone the 79,991 of his own parish who voted for Brexit. Why should any of them bother ever again to set foot in Manchester Cathedral when its Dean believes either that Brexit Christians are all racist, or so undiscerning as to be content to sup with “vile racists”?

And then there’s the Dean of Exeter, the Very Rev’d Dr Jonathan Draper, who is of the view that Brexit Christians are all uneducated morons. Here’s his anathematising tweet:

Dean of Exeter - EU referendum

And here’s his apology, as a Christian, for the crass stupidity of millions of his co-religionists who shamed Jesus and the Church with their bigoted gullibility:

Dean of Exeter - EU referendum 2b

He went further: “Apologised to my children for what the old have done to the young. Truly awful, truly catastrophic.” He is free, of course, to apologise to his own children for what he perceives as “the old” (ie 50+)  inflicting evil upon the young. He later apologised for these tweets, but it was artful wording: “I tweeted this and should not have done and apologise for any offence caused. It was a weak moment…” To apologise for offence caused is not to apologise for the cause of offence. He patently believes this: Twitter speaks what the heart is full of.

There was some dispute as to whether it was very ‘Christian’ to draw attention to this after Dr Draper had not only apologised, but also repented to the extent of deleting his tweets. The Twurch cry was for mercy and grace to be shown to the penitent: an apology really ought to be the end of the matter. Well, here’s what the Dean of Exeter thinks of that reasoning:

Dean of Exeter - EU referendum 3

Perhaps it’s only Brexit Christians for whom forgiveness is impossible? Or is it just Tory Brexit Christians? Or is it specifically Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who are excommunicated with no hope of redemption?

And then there’s the Dean Emeritus of Durham (what is it with deans?), the Very Rev’d Dr Michael Sadgrove:

Sadgrove - Le Pen

Note, once again, how the smear of fraternal racism is used to denigrate those who advocate Brexit. The name of Le Pen has long been associated with Holocaust-denial, racism and anti-Semitism (ie evil). These are now our “friends”, says Dr Sadgrove, while righteously preaching ‘good disagreement’ and objecting very strongly indeed to the term ‘theological illiteracy’ (when aimed at him). But it’s fine to scorn 17,410,742 Britons for wanting their democracy back because that’s exactly the sort of nationalist evil advocated by anti-Semites and Nazis. Durham voted to leave the EU: one wonders what 153,877 Dunelmians make of this sanctified slur.

The effects of all this? Well, one Telegraph journalist muses upon the merits of murdering Nigel Farage (just a fortnight after the murder of Jo Cox MP):

Farage dead

The torrent of hate (and there’s no other word for it) against him is incessant and quite appalling. If you are offended by bad language, please don’t survey the following Twitter extracts:Farage hate

If these were aimed at Baroness Warsi, the Guardian and BBC would be raging: there’d be condemnatory speeches in Parliament and chiding proclamations from pulpits. But, hey, this is only Nigel Farage, and he deserves everything that comes his way – even a bullet between the eyes.

If Brexit Christians are deemed to be a contributory cause of increased incidents of racist attacks and other hate crimes, then clergy might do well to reflect on the harmful effects of their own prejudiced sneers and inflammatory tweets. The Church of England is a national church: it exists for the service, spiritual well-being and human flourishing of all – including Brexit Christians and other Brexiters of all faiths and none. Nigel Farage is an Anglican Christian. He is someone’s son, husband, father and friend. If Jesus can commune with prostitutes and tax collectors; if he can bear even to touch lepers and kiss other outcasts, perhaps Brexitophobic vicars and Remainophile deans and bishops might condescend a little to speak (and listen) to us graciously, because we are the Church, too. We can take a touch of bitter saline speech, but, for God’s sake, don’t judge us all to be defenders of apartheid and avowers of evil.

  • Anton

    Heaven knows I am not one for church hierarchies (the power of people in large groups?) but if they serve any purpose it would be to sack vicars who disparage their flock like this.

  • len

    The Anglican Clergy appear to be so up the establishment that they can only be regarded as’ blind guides now….
    Is this hate speech?. Well I suppose it is…. I hate to see the church compromise the Word of God to fit in with what ‘ the world’ approves of in a futile attempt to ‘be relevant’.

    • Erik Dahlberg

      I couldn’t agree more. Are these people servants to scripture or vice versa?

  • Uncle Brian

    Roger Govender, Jonathan Draper and Michael Sadgrove are three names I had never seen or heard until this moment. The first question that occurs to me about them is this: How did such obviously unsuitable candidates ever wangle their way into the ranks of the Christian clergy in the first place? Who were the examiners and interviewers who failed to detect the character flaw in each of them that disqualified them from entering any trade or professi0n in which they might be called upon, from time to time, to give advice to other people on any subject at all?

    • Demon Teddy Bear

      They were appointed by the state. Specifically, by a mafia of liberal religious types, who rather detest Christians, but hate conservatives with a pure and holy hate.

    • Sigfridiii

      Appointed by the Crown to destabilise the Christian ministry and teaching of the church in their respective dioceses. All theologically illiterate but experts at fine dining.

  • IanCad

    What has become of the “Broad Church”? I always thought it meant tolerant, respectful and forgiving. Does the appellation today merely refer to the large number of female vicars now in the ranks?

  • Pope Cromwell

    What do they think they are doing? My minister prayed for wisdom to be given to those carrying out the exit negotiations. He prayed for the health of the nation and light-heartedly mentioned Noah’s #Flexit during a sermon on the Old Testament line of Seth. I am grateful for him – he hasn’t made anyone to be sinful for making a well-judged decision. I hope at least some in the Church of England also took a more temperate view last Sunday.
    So much hysteria has been whipped up by the Remainers, perhaps more so after the vote. People need assurance that our Sovereign Lord still reigns (He will even more so when we get the Queen back as our sovereign consecrated Christian monarch – sorry, couldn’t resist) and I am glad that my Minister was there to give it.
    Furthermore, they would do well to read the words of their own doctrine:

    “XXXVII. Of the [Power of the] Civil Magistrates
    The Queen’s Majesty hath the chief power in this Realm of England, and other her Dominions, unto whom the chief Government of all Estates of this Realm, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil, in all causes doth appertain, and is not, nor ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction.”

    Pay careful attention to the last sentence. From the 39 Articles of the Church of England.

    Hopefully we can soon add: The European Commission hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England.

  • wisestreligion

    Some Anglicans sit more comfortably in the, increasingly compulsory, belief system of the Western world – Liberal Atheist Utopianism – than in the truth of Christ. They have become the spiritual descendants of those who were most antagonistic to Jesus 2000 years ago. Righteousness in those days was achieved through condemning the tax-collectors, money-lenders and prostitutes. Today’s Pharisees proudly hate the sexists, the racists, the homophobes. Plus ca change. If only human frailty were confined to just 3 categories! As for me and my household, we will trust that we are justified only through faith in Jesus.

    So why don’t the prelates quoted by Cranmer make up their minds – are they in the church of Christ or the church of Caiaphas?

  • carl jacobs

    Do these people think those 17,000,000 Leave voters just aren’t listening? All this extended tantrum will do is harden the polarization. I realize there is a strong steak in Liberalism of “Democracy is great but the correct side must win”. But this reaction of “Who let the serfs vote?” is both dangerous and contrary to their interests. If they manage to overturn Brexit with this attitude in place, those 17,000,000 voters will be angry, alienated, completely closed to reconciliation, and looking for a new political vehicle to carry a very different message to Westminster.

    And they will find it.

    • IanCad

      This is why you guys have the Second Amendment.

    • Anton

      Would, not Will. Brrexit might well be enacted yet. But you are right.

    • Inspector General

      Ha! Not one politician of seniority has advocated for the vote to be ignored. For that would surely end the cosy two party set up they currently enjoy. Anything but that!

      • carl jacobs

        You do understand that there is a difference between functionally subverting the vote, and formally rejecting the vote, right?

        • Ehem, this is Britain, Carl, where the public, rspecially the Leave crowd, is much sharper politically than in the US and, admittedly, in Canada. Whereas in our parts the majority can be bamboozled and would either resign itself to comprise or fly off its hinges with extremist idiocies, Brits would wield their anger like a sabre and turn Parliament, figuratively speaking, into an abattoir. With their snouts at the trough racing to slop off as much as they can before someone cuts off the butter milk delivery, they won’t dare even talk about reneging.

        • Inspector General

          Come on then Carl. You’re itching to tell us all about subverting referendums…

        • Uncle Brian

          I hope I’m not breaking His Grace’s rules by reposting here a comment I posted on another thread, a day or two ago.

          Britain’s withdrawal would not formally happen until Article 50 is invoked by the government. Until then, no technical decision has actually been made.

          The referendum itself has no constitutional significance. To stop Brexit, all the government has to do is nothing.

          That’s what it says in the Indy, in connection with the Lammy business

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result-latest-david-lammy-mp-eu-referendum-result-parliament-twitter-statement-stop-this-a7102931.html

          • IanCad

            Tautology UB, that’s the way to go. One decent comment can be used again and again.

  • Erik Dahlberg

    To say that ALL experts say/evidence suggests/decent people think/Brexiters are… is right up there with my other nominations for worst sentence starters such as ‘basically yeah’ and ‘but if you think about it’. The generalising physically grieves me.

    • Inspector General

      Ain’t you got somethin’ there…

  • Martin

    One would be more worried about the views of Anglican clergy if there were evidence that the majority had any idea of what the Christian gospel is actually about. I’ll grant that some really do know, but you need to pass that on to the majority in your church.

    • dannybhoy

      “I’ll grant that some really do know,”
      I do believe Brother Martin is softening..

      • Martin

        Danny

        It’s been my position all along. Sadly those who are Christians don’t seem to rise to influential rank.

  • Maalaistollo

    ‘And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? Wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.’

    • IanCad

      Superb! Wish I’d have thought of it.

  • Merchantman

    And what about Junker? The man who this week kissed Farage on the cheek and embraced him. Who is Junker? What is he saying?
    He has just said Scotland (Next London?) has a right to be heard in Brussels. Let the meaning of this sink in for a moment , and ask if its not an existential threat to the unity of the UK?
    This strikes at the very being of the UK.
    As I said last week Junker has lost it.
    It seems there are some very dark forces indeed at work and it will be interesting to see how the UK Government responds. Democracy or no Democracy?
    Maybe the UK Government should issue a euro arrest warrant.

    • Dreadnaught

      Saw him on TV going into the EU building with his fingers in his ears and the ruddiest of a brewers flush – it was only mid morning.

    • Anton

      Just send him another crate of brandy.

  • Don Benson

    I doubt that Nigel Farage has a racist bone in his body, but he sure has a backbone which puts a good many CofE clerics to shame (you know who you are).

    But why the hysteria over our leaving the EU? We will obviously leave the single market but we will still have full trading access to it with about 3% tariffs (which our cheaper £ already offsets); we can still travel there, our towns and villages can still twin with other European towns and villages; we will still have all manner of friendly diplomatic and educational and scientific links. We can now form our own global trade agreements and control our borders; most importantly our democracy is restored as is our national sovereignty. Why the anger and the gnashing of teeth? There must be a deeper psychological reason for this irrational response.

    Perhaps it’s an insecurity which comes from having no solid inner convictions. Perhaps the EU project with its grand vision of a super-state had become a prop for those with a lonely and insecure inner self; and, more seriously for Clergy, perhaps that vision had come to eclipse the sovereignty of God in their view of nationhood and the human condition. With such a melancholy vision it might be understandable that those who have voted away their last vestige of hope would become a target for anger, and the charge of ‘racism’ is as predictable a form of irrationality as one might expect.

    • dannybhoy

      “Perhaps it’s an insecurity which comes from having no solid inner
      convictions. Perhaps the EU project with its grand vision of a
      super-state had become a prop for those with a lonely and insecure inner
      self;”
      Well put. I think it took a hold here because the ’70s saw the madness of union power, the deliberate delinquency inflicted on our major industries, often led by Soviet trained unions reps. Then there was our colonial history that some felt did not reflect well on us. The great Margaret Thatcher stopped some of the rot, but I think unwisely allowed our utilities to be bought by foreign interests and successive administrations felt that falling in with the EU project was the path of least resistance. Politicians could continue to huff puff and strike poses, safe in the knowledge that they no longer had responsibility as the organ grinder..

  • That is some superb ass-kicking in that post, Your Grace.

  • John Waller

    Fine post, but am I the only one struggling to get past the term, “inaugural Lambeth Palace Iftar?”

    We may eat a common meal with whom we choose, but an iftar is a specifically Islamic meal rendered as an act of worship to the Islamic God.

    Did the imams present get an invitation to the Lord’s Table?

    • Anton

      This was discussed on the preceding thread. For the Archbishop of Canterbury to invite the Muslim Mayor of London to a meal that is timed deliberately after sunset during Ramadan is a good thing, but calling it an iftar is disturbing, for it appears that a Christian table has been set up to an Islamic purpose. I have some questions:

      * Was alcoholic drink served to those who wanted it? If I accept a Muslim’s hospitality then I expect alcohol won’t be on the table, but there is no reason not to offer it at a Christian table and simply let those who don’t want it decline it. (It’s available at most curry houses.)

      * How can it be an iftar for Justin Welby?

      * Were prayers said, and if so what?

      • I’m more puzzled that the Muslims accepted the invite. I would, with polite appreciation for the gesture, pass on a Passover seder…even if prepated by a kosher caterer… hosted by a church or even the White House, and would not host a Christmas dinner at a synagogue and expect genuine Christians or any Jew from the congregation to attend. Such attempts to paper over precisely the kind of differences that make us unique in good ways strike me as maudlin and hare-brained.

        • IanCad

          Agreed! There is nothing more dangerous than a monolithic church; which is precisely where the ecumenical movement will lead.

        • Uncle Brian

          On this point we are as one. The Catholic Church’s guidance on attending a seder is this: By all means accept an invitation from a Jewish family or from a synagogue to attend their seder, but don’t even think of attending – much less hosting – a so-called “Christian seder” at Passover.

          • Anton

            Does that mean one run by Jews? If it means one run by Christians who happen to be Jews then wouldn’t that debar you from a communal meal of the early church? We hold a Christian passover meal in our church some years.

          • Uncle Brian

            In the case of a seder “run by Christians who happen to be Jews,” I frankly don’t know what the answer would be. If I needed to find out, the person to ask would be Fr David Neuhaus SJ, the Patriarchal Vicar of the St James Vicariate for Hebrew-Speaking Catholics in Israel:

            http://www.catholic.co.il/index.php?lang=en

          • Anton

            What was the reason for that advice, please?

          • Uncle Brian

            I don’t remember in detail. I saw the question asked, and the answer given, on the Catholic Answers website, a year or two ago, but I wouldn’t like to put words in their mouth. It had no importance for me personally. My wife and I have twice attended a seder at a Chabad synagogue, but untiI I read that question and answer at Catholic Answers I had never even heard of such a thing as a “Christian seder”.

          • Anton

            We’ve invited someone from “Jews for Jesus” to lead one a couple of times. (This organisation does believe Jesus is not only the Jewish messiah but also divine.) We learn more about Jewish traditions, for many Jewish Passover traditions are not remotely as old as the commands how to do it in the Book of Exodus, but there is absolutely no denial of Him in these feasts, only affirmation. Perhaps the Communion/transubstantiation issue is what lies behind the advice you have received?

          • Uncle Brian

            I don’t think it had anything to do with transubstantiation, although, as I said, after all this time I don’t have any clear recollection of what the reasons were. The easiest and quickest way to find out would be to ask them yourself, in the Ask an Apologist box at the top of the left-hand column:

            http://forums.catholic.com/

          • dannybhoy

            Did you enjoy the Chabad seder UB? Did they make you feel welcome?

          • Uncle Brian

            “Yes” to both questions, emphatically. We were by no means the only Christians present. In fact they expect to receive a certain number of Christian guests every year. It’s something the rabbi encourages.

          • dannybhoy

            I loved attending Jewish services. Incredibly moving. Never been to a Sephardi service, but Askenazi music carries with it a ‘doleful’ melancholic holiness that touched me deeply.
            Probably the European history behind it?
            May I ask where your interest springs from?

          • Uncle Brian

            It began with a Jewish friend who was not particularly observant, but when his father died he wanted to go the synagogue regularly to say the kaddish for him. For medical reasons it was difficult for him to get around by himself, so either my wife or I, sometimes both together, would drive him there. The rabbi kindly invited us to stay for the service, rather than hanging about outside.
            That was quite a few years ago now. We are no longer living in that city, where the very small Jewish community was almost 100 percent Ashkenazi, although they used the modern Israeli pronunciation, which I believe is gaining ground in synagogues all over the world. Only a handful of very elderly members of the congregation used the traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation.

          • Royinsouthwest

            Why not follow your own conscience? Does Fr David have a hotline to God?

          • Uncle Brian

            Follow our own conscience was exactly what we did, at the time. Several years later I found out, quite by chance, that the Catholic Church has its own guidelines on the question, which I mentioned in an earlier comment. That’s what Anton is asking questions about, not about my conscience, and I’m trying to help him find an answer to his questions.

          • Royinsouthwest

            OK, that’s a reasonable answer.

        • Anton

          Yes. The Established church has an impossible job at times, but it is still a church.

    • dannybhoy

      Would they accept it?
      Of course not, but sometimes interfaith dialogue is a one way street…

  • If it’s damaging to the English, the Church of England can be counted on to support it. Mass immigration, multiculturalism, diversity, Islamization—the church’s enthusiasm for those weapons of civilizational destruction has long been known, and the referendum campaign and its aftermath have starkly revealed to me the church’s love for that other nation wrecker, the anti-democratic EU.

    I suppose there must have been a time when the church wanted the best for the English but I can’t remember it.

  • dannybhoy

    Not the most enamoured of the Anglican tradition, but I doff my cap to Bishop Graham of Norwich in whose diocese we reside, and reprint his message after the referendum..

    The Rt Revd Graham James issued a statement on Saturday 25 June at Diocesan Synod following the results of the EU referendum.

    “The result of Thursday’s Referendum seemed to take even some who
    supported the Leave campaign by surprise. The announcement of the
    resignation of the Prime Minister, a year after victory at the General
    Election, adds to the level of uncertainty. The will of the people
    expressed in the Referendum must be honoured but no one has yet
    negotiated an exit from the European Union under the Lisbon Treaty so
    much is unpredictable.

    In this diocese every voting district, except Norwich, voted Leave.
    Some areas like South Norfolk were very evenly split. Great Yarmouth
    saw a majority in excess of 70% for Leave. Norwich voted 56% to 44% in
    favour of Remain. It’s a reminder close to home of the division of
    opinion.

    Therein lies a consequential danger of the outcome of this
    referendum. Ostensibly it has been about separation from the European
    Union. But it has revealed major divisions in the United Kingdom –
    between Scotland and Northern Ireland on one side and England and Wales
    on the other; between London and the rest of England since the capital
    voted heavily to Remain. But there are other divisions too – between
    north and south in England; between rural and urban; between young and
    old.

    Such divisions are dangerous, especially after a campaign which was often shrill, bruising and alienating.

    Our church communities, including this Diocesan Synod, contain people
    who voted on both sides in this referendum. There is no single
    Christian position on the European Union and membership of it. But
    there is a common Christian conviction that unity is better than
    division, hope better than despair and that we are always in partnership
    with Jesus Christ when proclaiming the good news. He offers salvation
    and redemption for all people in all places at all times.

    So in the wake of this referendum we have much to do. First we
    should pray for our country and for the people of Europe. Then we
    should pray for our Prime Minister and for all Government ministers,
    indeed all politicians. The tragic death of Jo Cox is a reminder that
    the generous service given to their communities by so many Members of
    Parliament can be dangerous. Our political leaders need our prayer and
    support, never more so than now.

    Further, in our local communities and in our churches we should be
    the agents of unity, always hospitable and not hostile and committed to
    the pursuit of the common good. As St Paul tells the Galatians “And let
    us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we
    do not give up.” (Galatians 6.9) Rarely have we had more gospel work to
    do.

    God bless our country, and God bless you all.”

    +Graham Norvic:
    Good man.

    • IanCad

      There will always be a remnant Danny. An excellent Bishop.

    • Anton

      Norvic? That title goes back a way!

      • Sigfridiii

        His predecessor was a teetotaller known as +Britvic

  • sarky

    The stranglehold of PC has been broken. The people have found their voice and some of what has happened is an unfortunate side effect.
    Those chastising brexiters ought to have a good hard look at themselves, because it is their shouting down of any form dissent, that has allowed this environment to grow and fester.
    Instead of attacking us, why not, for once, listen to us.

    • Eustace

      Remainers have listened to you and have found your arguments ill-judged, poorly thought-out, racist, xenophobic and entirely unacceptable.

      They will never agree with you. In this kind of a disagreement opposing viewpoints can’t be reconciled because they’re mutually exclusive.

      Remainers are now faced with the loss of a European identity they hold dear. It has been ripped from them by a majority determined to punish what they see as an elite for daring to be better educated, wealthier and younger than them. That’s basically what the issue is and all this rhodomontade about sovereignty and independence is merely a smoke screen. Non-graduates have just given graduates a black eye and boy are they happy about it.

      Had the status quo been maintained and the Leavers lost the vote, they would of course have been disappointed and angry, but as there would have been no material change in their status, I doubt the reaction would have been quite so violent.

      All this talk of a referendum rerun is nonsense of course. The decision of the British people must be respected. But the bad feeling isn’t going to die down in a week or a month or even a year. A generation has been betrayed by its selfish, self-regarding parents and that kind of betrayal takes years to get over. British society is now profoundly and durably divided in a way it was not before. Remainers won’t just “get over it”. They’re angry and they know exactly who to blame.

      • Anton

        “Had the status quo been maintained and the Leavers lost the vote, they would of course have been disappointed and angry, but as there would have been no material change in their status, I doubt the reaction would have been quite so violent.”

        I’m glad you agree that we’d make more genteel losers than you.

        • Eustace

          There’s nothing genteel about a Christian scorned. They’re among the most vituperative and intemperate fishwives you could ever have the misfortune to encounter.

          Your calmer reaction would merely have reflected the fact that you had less to lose. So don’t be so puffed up with pride. We know what you’re really like, which is no better than anyone else.

          • “They’re among the most vituperative and intemperate fishwives you could ever have the misfortune to encounter.”

            This from you?!!!

          • Pubcrawler

            The Lady of Shalott had to view the world via a mirror. Linus is much the same, except his own reflection clouds and distorts his perception.

          • Anton

            You’ve got that right. A sinner like everybody else.

      • sarky

        Who to blame?? Like the degree educated people like myself, my wife and the majority of my colleagues who all voted out.
        Sorry Eustace, but you’ve totally misjudged this. As for racism, my wife is Egyptian, so go figure.

        • Eustace

          Oddly enough, it doesn’t all revolve around you. The average Brexit supporter is blue collar with few qualifications. The average Remainer is a college graduate. The fact that you as a graduate supported Brexit doesn’t alter the socio-economic divide that together with age defines the two camps. It just makes you atypical.

          • sarky

            But that’s not my experience. But you’re free to believe whatever you want if it suits your worldview.

          • Eustace

            Your experience is anecdotal and therefore relevant only to you. All the information points to a real divide between Brexiters and Remainers. Two very different, diametrically opposed and now deeply hostile tribes.

          • Uncle Brian

            No, Linus, only one of the tribes is deeply hostile, the haters on the Remain side — which isn’t all the Remainers, by any means. A majority of them are quite civilised people, really. Just like the Leavers !

          • sarky

            Only within the m25. The rest of us are rubbing along nicely.

          • Anton

            Whereas your experience isn’t anecdotal?

          • Eustace

            I’m not recounting my experience, but rather the consensus of findings on the nature of the Brexit and Remain camps.

            It just so happens that my personal experience largely bears this out, however I have also encountered graduates who support the Brexit position. They are outnumbered by their less well-qualified co-conspirators, but they still exist.

            Xenophobia, isolationism and populist nationalism can cross all educational barriers. Witness Nazi Germany where Hitler had many well-educated supporters, despite the Nazi movement being essentially a demotic, mob-driven thing.

          • Anton

            There are a lot of degree courses in leftie loafing which call themselves by other names since the higher education system expanded to 50% of the population, an expansion that necessitated dumbing down of the product. Not proper subjects like maths, physics, biochemistry, history, classics and some others. In the Brexit debate it’s worth breaking down those graduates by subject. Give me an honest car mechanic over some of these graduates any day.

          • Owl

            Linus, what a load of invented codswallop!

        • Samuel

          Dude

          You’re wasting your time with Eustace. Seriously.

      • Inspector General

        Good evening Linus. You were trembling, weren’t you, typing that…

        Linus is well aware of what has happened. The country has taken a good swing to the right. And what’s more, it looks like the Fascist EU on the continent is out to give us a bloody nose. As an example to others that there is no life outside the EU, you see. That of course will instil even more resolve into us Britons. Which in its turn will cause the country to slide even further to the right.

        And one day, people will notice a trouble making bugger like you and…well let’s see…

        • dannybhoy

          Linus is the patron saint of perpetually angry people..

      • ” rhodomontade”?

        Do you mean “rodomontade”?

        • IanCad

          Maybe American spelling jack.

      • Dreadnaught

        I think that not all of the 37% of the younger generation voted to remain which poses the question; where was the 63% who couldn’t be arsed voting?

        • Eustace

          They were being young and irresponsible, like the young and irresponsible tend to be.

          You were young and irresponsible once. Or maybe you weren’t. Some people come out the womb aged 50 and immediately don a cardigan and thick-rimmed spectacles and start complaining about how young and irresponsible their age group is. An inordinate number of these precociously mature rabat-joies seem to live in England…

  • IanCad

    I see where poor, alcoholic Paul Gascoigne is being prosecuted for “Hate Speech.” Seemingly addressed against one man with no threat to, or agitation for, murder.
    Now I’m sure the demented armchair warriors calling for the death of Nigel Farage will face neither prosecution or any other type of sanction. Inconsistency is the hallmark of the left.

  • dannybhoy

    from Bluedog’s Geopolitical Futures link..
    “Germany with its back against a wall”
    ‘…..The British survived the Battle of Britain, and they will surely survive this.

    The ones who didn’t survive the Battle of Britain were the Germans. And
    their ability to survive this is much more uncertain than that of the
    British. The reasons are fairly obvious, but since everyone in the media
    is focused on the end of Great Britain, it is a story they haven’t
    noticed.
    The image of the EU as a happy place busy fixing the minor problems that have cropped up isn’t quite true. Apart from the substantial growth of anti-EU political parties, on
    the left and the right, there are many EU member governments in serious
    disputes, many of which were initiated by the EU with regulations and
    mandates that the members feel they can’t live with.’

    Those who are busy slating those in the majority for Leave, are ignoring the reality of the EU’s internal problems. The EU has been referred to as ‘a busted flush’ and ‘The fact is that the EU is yesterday’s solution to the problems of several decades ago.’
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/the-eu-has-become-a-corporate-playground

  • Can somebody explain to me how anybody calling himself “Christian” can possibly support the ideologies of multiculturalism, diversity and pan-utopianism, which are the partisan linchpins of the entire Western world? Such positions, having ascended in the comparative decline of Christianity, seem to me to have more in common with the story of Babel, whose hubristic and rational builders no doubt rejoiced in being one people, in a false unity (like the EU) without God, than with the story of Ruth, who famously said to Naomi “for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God.” My understanding of the curse of Babel is that God has a clear mandate for nationhood as opposed to this post-modern (and therefore post-Christian) tendency to “ever closer union,” and the arising of great supranational blocs.

    I wonder what these heretical Anglican vicars who sneer at the “Brexiteers” have to say about that?

    • David Harkness

      Excellent post Patrick, never seen it gefore, but the scriptures you quoted re Ruth rather pull the rug out from under multiculturalism.

      Thanks for that

    • Manfarang

      There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

      • That is the essence of the Catholic (or “universal”) Church, not nations. It’s one thing to share faith with people of different ethnicities, expressed in the sacraments, it’s quite another to mix people together and to heap opprobrium on the Church as a private taboo.

        • Manfarang

          Are you Dutch Reformed?

          • No, I’m Russian Orthodox.

          • Manfarang

            Representation of Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) in the Kingdom of Thailand acts under St. Nicholas’ church.
            Getting a bit multicultural eh?

    • Stig

      Interesting isn’t it, that the design of the European Parliament building in Strasbourg was based on that of the Tower of Babel!

      • Inspector General

        Really! That will be of interest to Len. He’s always on about the ‘whore’…

        • dannybhoy

          Tis true Inspector. In fact a number of links (short video clips) were posted exploring the significance of some EU buildings and statues..
          You were probably asleep.

          • Uncle Brian

            Or he was incommunicado because his computer had been sabotaged again. It used to happen quite often, though he seems to have got the saboteurs sorted out at last.

          • dannybhoy

            He must possess the most hacked off computer in cyberspace

            ;0)

          • Inspector General

            Probably…

          • Anton

            Some of those are quite responsible, some are off the wall.

    • Watchman

      Isaiah 10:12-14 HCSB
      [12] But when the Lord finishes all His work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for his arrogant acts and the proud look in his eyes.” [13] For he said: I have done this by my own strength and wisdom, for I am clever. I abolished the borders of nations and plundered their treasures; like a mighty warrior, I subjugated the inhabitants. [14] My hand has reached out, as if into a nest, to seize the wealth of the nations. Like one gathering abandoned eggs, I gathered the whole earth. No wing fluttered; no beak opened or chirped. …

      Doesn’t the King of Assyria remind you of the European project and can we expect the same punishment?

  • magnolia

    Personally I think anyone threatening death or encouraging others to maim or kill any citizen holding whatever ideas they hold should be promptly arrested and charged and thrown in a cell awaiting trial. Violence is anathema to any civilised society and they are an utter and entire disgrace, beyond which there is nothing.

    Any -ism they care to mention is not as bad as violence and murder, unless combined with violence and murder.

    The church should stand at a distance from them, ready only to readmit them once they have repented, for they stand in flashy unashamed defiance of the summary of the law, i.e to love God and your neighbour.

    • Anton

      I don’t think that any of the Christian bad losers have actually advocated violence.

      • magnolia

        I think you are right, but have they distanced themselves sufficiently from the anger of those who would……?

        Extraordinary anger over leaving an oligarchical superstate. The asssumption that one would need to be a bigoted racist to want to leave an undemocratic oligarchical superstate running a fascist economic model where crony capitalism and monopolies impoverish all but a very small elite- where does that come from? Are they smoking something in large quantities?

        • Anton

          That’s a great sentence in your 2nd para – thank you!

        • dannybhoy

          Some of the Church believe it is their bounden duty to side with the forces of secularism and progress.
          -It’s the only way to get invited to social events…

    • Ivan M

      You have to be a Joshua Bonehill for that. Leftists get away with everything.

  • Sigfridiii

    I hope you will be reporting each and every one of these tweets inciting violence to the police, so that they can be investigated and charged.

    • Uncle Brian

      What would the police do? Chuckle? Sneer? File them in the round file? Tear them up in anger?

  • Dear RifRafDean A reminder to you what the old have done for the young:
    65 year olds knew rationing
    75 year olds knew the Luftwaffe
    90 year olds knew panzers
    They didn’t ‘steal your future’
    THEY GAVE YOU ONE.
    Someone put this on Instagram and it rings true. Now just think about this and accept the result.

    • Anton

      Excellent. The generation in between, however, is certainly stealing the future of the young – by racking up debt on which the young will have to pay interest.

      • Ivan M

        By being alive you mean?

    • IanCad

      And tonight on “The Moral Maze” Guardian columnist Shiv Malik is pushing for every young person’s vote to count as 1 !/2.

      • Inspector General

        The Inspector’s reply to that is “Don’t make me come up there…”

        • IanCad

          There may yet have to be a shooting war .

      • Anton

        Just another bad loser. The standard reply is: you didn’t complain about the terms of this referendum beforehand, so why now?

      • No way, that’s outrageous.

      • wisestreligion

        And I was just thinking how funny it would be to tweet such a suggestion as a parody of the fundamentalist Liberal Left!
        They are beyond parody, I give up.

      • Royinsouthwest

        Can the young people cope with fractions?

        • Pubcrawler

          Eighths and sixteenths at least.

        • Anton

          They’re better at factions.

    • dannybhoy

      Excellent Marie.

  • Manfarang

    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

  • Inspector General

    If the Inspector had time on his hands, he would personally visit all 3 cathedral lurking dog collared intolerant lefty scoundrels and not rule out a damn good thrashing if they came the insolent with him. That kind of verbal abuse coming from a cleric is enough to inspissate a fellows anger. But he doesn’t have the time…

    As for those who are inciting the murder of Mr Farage, then perhaps the police can make a call on them, take them into custody and charge them with – let’s see – how about ‘incitement to murder’. One notes the police have time to harass the washed up tragic alcoholic Gascoigne for a poor joke he made – but then, perhaps upsetting black security guards is the greater crime…or is being a patriotic white politician in England now an even greater crime than that!

  • Anton

    His Grace’s link to the Rogers Govender – Giles Fraser spat does not (at the time of writing) get beyond a frontpage. Here are the details:

    http://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20160623/281676844207617

    Govender apparently knows only one way to argue – call anybody who disagrees with him a racist. Apart from being offensive, that’s just lazy.

  • Inspector General

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/29/nigella-lawsons-brother-blames-brexit-on-same-sex-marriage-in-daily-mail-column/

    Enjoy chaps, but remember you are visiting a pain zone, so don’t expect too many giggles. Brexit was all Big Gay’s fault is the gist. It is said that if Cameron hadn’t delivered the breath-taking insult of gay ‘marriage’ to the real people who matter in the Conservative party, the people who keep the thing going – the loyal membership – he wouldn’t have had to offer a referendum to the disgusted deserters to win their support back from UKIP. Albeit a referendum he was bound to win, so he thought…

    And here’s the best laugh. The Inspector suspects that the former estranged are already heading back to the blue fold. All sins forgiven, naturally, because they were ‘brave boys to do what they did and their sacrifice paid off’…

    You could say that these events will serve as a warning to future Conservative Prime Ministers, except that we are (hopefully) never to have an untrustworthy Eton Spiv at the wheel ever again…

    • Royinsouthwest

      Boris went to Eton!

      • Anton

        I think the Inspector was aware of that…

  • Inspector General

    MPs are flocking to Brexit’s way of doing things. Here’s an interview with a politician who in an unguarded moment displays a rare honesty.

    “So you’ve changed your mind then, Brexit is the way”

    “Yes, it’s the right thing to do”

    “But you were so firmly in the Remain camp”

    “Not any more, the 62-58 split convinced me of that”

    “So you have no principles whatsoever”

    “None at all. Never said I did have. Look, I’m a professional politician. I enjoy my rather splendid standard of living from it. I intend to remain a politician until I retire and beyond. I need votes, and votes I shall have. I’m whatever the voter wants me to be, you see”

    • IanCad

      That is exactly why only a consistent Brexit supporter must lead the CP.

      John Baron, David Davis —–. But not one on the following list of shame;
      Unfaithful Stewards all:
      Stuart Andrew, Nigel Adams, Lucy Allan, David Amess,

      Richard Bacon, Henry Bellingham,Bob Blackman, Crispin Blunt,

      Julian Brazier, Conor Burns, David Burrowes,Maria Caulfield,

      James Cleverly, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Chris Davies, James Davies,

      Mims Davies, Philip Davies, Steve Double, James Duddridge,

      George Eustice, Nigel Evans, Michael Fabricant, Suella Fernades,

      Liam Fox, Mark Francois, Richard Fuller,Marcus Fish, Nus Ghani,

      Zac Goldsmith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Chris Green,

      Rebecca Harris, John Hayes, Chris Heaton Harris, Greg Knight,

      Andrea Leadsom, Edward Leigh, Jack Lopresti, Karen Lumley,

      Craig Mackinlay, Kit Malthouse, Scott Mann, Paul Maynard,

      Jason Mccartney, Nigel Mills, Penny Mourdant, Sheryl Murray,

      Andrew Morrison, David Nuttall, Priti Patel, Mike Penning,

      Andrew Percy, Stephen Phillips, Will Quince, Dominic Raab,

      Jacob Rees-Mogg, Paul Scully, Henry Smith, Royston Smith,

      Andrew Stephenson, Iain Stewart, Julian Sturdy, Rishi Sunak,

      Desmond Swayne, Robert Syms, Derek Thomas, Michael Tomlinson,

      Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Martin Vickers, Theresa Villiers.

      • Inspector General

        Hmmm. The Inspector can think of no better type to lead us out of the EU than a Remainer who has seen the light (and the all important votes therein )

        • James60498 .

          I don’t think these are “Remainers”.

          Are they leavers who signed the letter asking Cameron to stay?

          • Inspector General

            Ah!

          • IanCad

            They are the dishonourable Leavers who, when it appeared Remain might just possibly win signed that craven letter to Cameron asking him to stay on.
            As far as I’m concerned they have disqualified themselves.

          • Inspector General

            Wonder if they are members of the ‘Benders Appreciation Club’ for whom Cameron has done so much…We might have a law at the last moment that gives a legal right to men in dresses and badly fitting wigs to use the ladies toilets…

          • It was a very weaselly thing to do.

          • IanCad

            We do not need a weasel as leader.

        • IanCad

          That contradicts what you just wrote. I for one do not want a flaky, unprincipled wretch to lead the Conservative Party. I have less of a problem with a consistent Remainer, but Lord Above! We do not need a blatant opportunist whose position sways to every wind of doctrine.

          • Inspector General

            Not really. There are few who are not like that. For example, every ‘List’ Conservative MP, in one’s opinion, could have given that mock interview…

          • IanCad

            mock interview?? I’m lost IG.

          • Inspector General

            One’s earlier post…

          • IanCad

            Got it. Agreed!

        • Anton

          I do not trust someone who campaigned to Remain, and now says he accepts the will of the people, to enact Brexit.

          • Inspector General

            There’s a lot to be said for entrusting to an utter mercenary who has no secret agenda…

          • Anton

            Perhaps, but how do you know he’s a genuine mercenary rather than someone posing as one but with an unchanged secret agenda?

          • Inspector General

            Scrutinise all their expenses claims…

  • bmudmai

    Proof of the EU’s plan for a New World Order: http://eeas.europa.eu/top_stories/pdf/eugs_review_web.pdf

    It’s simply a piece of EU propaganda but the details are blatant and it looks like a good job we intended to leave before it was too late…

    • Dreadnaught

      I don’t think its so easily dismissed as a piece of propaganda on the contrary, talking of protecting the Ukrainian Candidate and stating of the need for facing down Russia over Crimea; the need for contributions to a defence force is very risky if it is just propaganda.
      Ambition next will be for the UK’s seat on the Security Council: although not mentioned, I will bet it will soon follow once we leave.
      Thanks for the link.

      • Royinsouthwest

        If the EU wants a permanent seat on the UN Security Council then they could simply ask the French government to let them take its seat.

        • Dreadnaught

          You think so?

          • Royinsouthwest

            Of course! France is a founding member of the EU and it is said that the French have always regarded the Common Market/European Economic Community/European Union as a German horse ridden by a French jockey. Therefore there is no reason for the EU to covet our seat.

          • Inspector General

            You sure it’s not a German riding a Frenchman who’s adopted the ‘jockey position’…

          • Royinsouthwest

            At the moment the Germans are too busy telling the Greeks, Hungarians and Poles what they should do, for their own good of course. As far as I no they have not really started to boss the French about yet.

          • Inspector General

            That’s because the French haven’t been pulling at the lead, but there’s always tomorrow…

  • David

    Our bishop’s recent newsletter repeats the “mistake” of slurring the Brexit campaign, and therefore its campaigners, with racially motivated violence. It feels very unpleasant at a personal level. St Paul’s advises that bishops should be a source of unity, not division. So what’s this except blatant politically motivated animosity, if not worse ? I am considering matters.

    • dannybhoy

      We need to stand up against any clergy who tries to label fellow Christians as moronic or racist or anything else. I certainly will! Being of a non conformist background I do not accept the spiritual authority of any clergy person unless they believe in Jesus as Lord, as Redeemer and High Priest. I accept of course that within the Catholic and Anglican traditions they believe in the priesthood and laity, and I will go along with that unless it seriously contravenes what I hold as the basics of the faith. In fact I find it quite worrying how members of the laity hold the priest in such esteem. Yet behind their backs they gossip and grumble..

      • Eustace

        “We need to stand up against any clergy…”

        For once I completely agree.

        • Inspector General

          Feeling cornered, you horrible little man?

          • dannybhoy

            Who he IG?

          • Inspector General

            Linus is the embodiment of evil, that fellow. The Inspector is really alive tonight. Fighting the dark forces. This is applied Christianity is it not…

          • Dreadnaught

            ‘is there anyone there – knock once for yes… or two for no’….

          • Inspector General

            Come on Dredders! Join the Inspector and chase out evil. It’s good Christian family fun…

          • carl jacobs

            Linus is a blind man who declares he possesses sight. He is a slave who believes he is free. He is dead yet imagines that he is alive. He is a fool who shakes his fist in the face of the Living God and imagines he will get away with it.

            He is not however the embodiment of evil. There is no sin in Linus that is not common to every man.

      • David

        Totally agree Danny.
        Like Luther I don’t see the ordained as automatically possessed of any special spiritual gifts not available to the laity.

        • dannybhoy

          Hush yo’ Anglican mout’ boy!!
          I can say that,, not sure you as a man of the cloth should.

          • David

            I don’t understand.
            But perhaps that’s best !

          • dannybhoy

            Maybe my bad. I thought you were an Anglican vicar or similar?

          • David

            Similar.

          • dannybhoy

            Apologies then David.

          • David

            Not a problem, my friend.

      • Anton

        There aint no such thing as the laity.

        • chiefofsinners

          We is all the laity. We is all the priesthood.

          • dannybhoy

            Quite so, The Scriptures paint a multifaceted description of our our initial state before a Holy God, our failure to consistently live up to our own moral code, the cost of our salvation and the extent of our salvation. Hence we are a part of the Body of Christ, we have a function in the Cody of Christ, we are members of a Royal Priesthood and we have a High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us.
            Alleluia!
            But here on earth the Church still has various traditions with their rites and practices. I don’t think it matters over much as we Christians are different and seek a ‘spiritual home’ in which we can worship and serve Him. -And as long as those in leadership are centred on Christ Jesus and His Gospel as plainly described in the New Testament.
            All that to say our vicar left about a month ago for pastures new, and last night the PPC’s of the churches of our benefice came together to prayerfully approve an ad for a replacement.
            As Christians we may not always enjoy where He has placed us, but as well as being priests we are also servants..

          • Anton

            It takes a long time to think of yourself as a priest of God if you have been in one of the denominations that do ordination (and the service of ordination always ordains someone “as a priest”, raising the question of what they were before). The change associated with that change of thought – that change of self-view – is deep and important, and brings something that is grievously lacking in those denominations, including all-member ministry.

          • dannybhoy

            You point to something quite significant there Anton, “the thinking of yourself as a priest.”

            Our recent vicar definitely had that sense of calling. We could discuss things, pull each other’s leg,talk politics etc., but he definitely saw his role as a priest and he had a sense of authority about him.
            Now perhaps what we as (evangelical?)Christians lose sight of is our calling as priests in a royal priesthood. What we emphasise is right,but it isn’t everything. Perhaps we should look more at sanctification and discipleship as well as our salvation.
            It reminds me of another aspect, that of being redeemed, that we are not our own, but we have been bought with a price..
            1 Corinthians 6>
            “19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
            The other thing which occurs (and to my mind fits in neatly with Paul’s teachings), is..
            2 Timothy 2>
            “20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honourable use, some for dishonourable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonourable,[c] he will be a vessel for honourable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.”

            So we can as Christians seek sanctification through the Holy Spirit to cleanse ourselves from those things which may prevent us from being of greater use in the kingdom.

  • chiefofsinners

    Love for our enemies is a defining characteristic of Christians.
    These people don’t even love their own country. They are homeophobic.

    • Inspector General

      No. Love our enemies when they are defeated is the Christian way. Always has been, until the arrival of the priest rubbish in the CoE during the past few decades..

      • carl jacobs

        Love our enemies when they are defeated

        And yet once again the Inspector receives a failing grade in Christian Theology.

        • Little Black Censored

          But you must admit it does make them more lovable.

        • Inspector General

          And therein is the difference between pure and applied Christianity. There’s a lot to be said for applied Christianity – most especially if you don’t want to end up a corpse before your time. Anyway, weren’t you clamouring for intervention to stop the murderous Saracens in the Middle East last year? Allied forces aren’t dropping love on the bastards, you know!

      • chiefofsinners

        “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;” Matthew 5:44

        “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8

        • Inspector General

          Should you ever find yourself in ISIS territory, you might want to be taking less notice of Matthew and more of the Inspector…

    • Eustace

      Remainers believe that continuing in the EU is in the best interests of their country. They are true patriots in that their patriotism isn’t a small, exclusive thing like yours. It encompasses respect of the self and of others and a willingness to cooperate for the common good.

      • Anton

        Common good? It’s working out so well between the Greeks and the Germans, isn’t it?

        • Eustace

          Every family has its share of disagreements and troubles.

          The Greeks were profligate beyond belief and now they’re paying the price. They know they only have themselves to blame, and in the way of all spoiled younger siblings who get into financial difficulty and have to turn to family members for a bail-out, are looking for scapegoats and excuses and easy ways out.

          But complain as they might, they know which side their bread is buttered on. They know they’re better off in the long term staying in the Single Market.

          Greece is suffering, but despite all the Cassandra-like warnings of doom and gloom from the British, they’re still in the EU and still in the eurozone. How much more opened-ended could your prophecies be? If not today, then when?

          • Ivan M

            Both they and the Germans are in a sado-masochistic relationship, with one or the other holding the whip alternatively. I understand it has its attractions for those with little clarity of mind. The British on the other hand are distinguished by their sense of fair play, which is one of the reasons all the best games come from them.

          • Anton

            Single Market simply means no tariffs in export or imports. I’m all in favour of that – it is what the British people were encouraged to think they were joining in the 1970s – but you don’t need monetary union to enact it. The problem between Greece and Germany is monetary union without fiscal union. The strains are increasing and will become impossible, and you’ll forgive me if I don’t put a date on it in view of the widely known ineptitude of all economic forecasting. Half of Greek 20-somethings are unemployed, because the EU solution is that they all go to Germany to get jobs and, perfectly reasonably, they don’t want to go to another culture where they don’t speak the language. That’s the inhumanity of the EU system, and it is also a dangerous recipe for communism or fascism in Greece. Either monetary union has to be undone (and it is only the acute short-term pain of doing that which is stopping the Greek government) or fiscal union has to be enacted and the Germans get to micromanage the Greek economy. How popular will that be?

      • dannybhoy

        Define the common good. If people have different values and aspirations, then what is the common good? That we respect and allow for difference surely? We don’t tell other countries how to run their affairs, we don’t tell them that they should want what we want etc.
        Actually your view shows an incredible arrogance, because you make the assumption that your ‘common good’ is a ‘one size fits all.’
        And you’re wrong.
        As well as arrogant. :0)

      • chiefofsinners

        I referred not to ‘remainers’ but to the subgroup who are the subject of this article. They are fomenting hatred and division within their nation.

  • grutchyngfysch

    I’m willing to bet that a lot of the worst bile comes from ultra liberal types whose faith is better off being described as Jesus themed political activism. Thoughtful Remainers that I’ve spoken with have genuinely been shaken by the whole thing but are generally receptive to seeing the point about seeing things from a very different perspective when you have been on the losing side of the EU.

  • bluedog

    ‘Never under-estimate the power of stupid people in large groups’, opines Dean Jonathan Draper, Your Grace.

    Well, these online petitions are catching on, why not launch one supporting dis-establishment of the CofE?

    If the Leave majority back that we may no longer have to endure the insults of these tax-payer funded clerics. We could do a bogof and work the tax-payer funded BBC into the same petition.

    • Andym

      “…. tax-payer funded clerics”.

      How so, Bluedog, even ignorong the SSMs?

      • bluedog

        Quite right, and I was wrong, thinking that the govt. building subsidy was part of a broader level of support. It isn’t.

  • Stephen Milroy

    I can’t remember the bible verse’ Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and render unto the E.U that which blatantly isn’t theirs…’

  • Albert

    The telling point is the attack on Giles Fraser. While I agree with him about almost nothing, his position was utterly Christian and utterly humanitarian. Therefore, those who condemn him, have either not taken the trouble to listen to him, or having listened to him have not actually heard him. Therefore, they are in no position to condemn him.

    And this is the story of so much of the Remain position: intellectual and moral laziness.

    • Eustace

      Who are you to judge, as your chief witchdoctor says?

      But of course you’re not judging a man, you’re judging his position, aren’t you? Only, a position doesn’t have an intellect. But a person does. And that same person’s morality is reflected in his position.

      Judging a position in the terms you have judged it necessarily involves judging he or she who holds it. And as a Christian, you’re not supposed to do this.

      But this is the story of so much of the Christian position: hypocrisy, disobedience of the basic tenets of your own religion, barely concealed hatred for those who won’t bend the knee to your judgment, and of course that Christian mainstay of “do as I say, not as I do”.

      The more I see of your religion and the perverse and self-serving justifications it drives you to, the more I realise what a pernicious influence it is. In conferring moral authority on yourself in the name of a God you have no intention of obeying or even respecting, you reveal yourself as no more than a vulgar politician who’ll do and say anything to make others bow to his will.

      This referendum has brought all the demagogues and manipulators out of the woodwork. A true Christian would have placed his political opinions to one side and tried to concentrate on bringing people together rather than driving wedges between them. He would have realised that in God there is no Brexiter or Remainer, no Briton or European, and he would have risen above the fray rather than exacerbating it with inflammatory and derogatory judgments.

      Those, like you, for whom Christianity is merely a smoke screen covering their real beliefs of self-worship and might is right, have been revealed for all to see.

      • Anton

        Did you actually read details of the exchange between Giles Frazer and Rogers Govender anytime before posting?

      • Ivan M

        Why do you care what true Christians are supposed to think? Incidentally, is Paris getting gayer? Carbeque season coming soon. Don’t leave your Beemer in the wrong places.

        • Little Black Censored

          Is Eustace that fellow in France who used to post here under another name? The tone is similar.

          • Pubcrawler

            Sure is.

          • Linus? Very perceptive, that little man. You could well be correct.

        • Eustace

          Of course Paris is getting gayer. I’m moving back there…

          Actually, Paris hasn’t been quite so gay (traditional sense of the word) for a long time. There’s nothing quite like seeing the British in torment to brighten our day.

          Even Michel Sapin, not a man known for his sparkling sense of humour, has been infected by the new-found spirit of joie de vivre. His joke yesterday about negotiating over freedom of movement has got the whole of Europe ROFL.

          That’s right, Monsieur le Ministre, you know how to reel the Brits in. Hook ’em with a shiny lure and then clobber them right between the eyes. Pity it won’t be Boris’s forehead that takes the blow, but Mrs May or Mr Vine will do just as well.

      • Albert

        Well this is a post that has missed the point. Have you looked at Giles Fraser’s position? Do you think he deserves the vitriol that has been directed at him? If so, please state how – with evidence.

        Also, I think you have completely failed to understand Christian teaching on judgement. My argument is precisely that Fraser has been judged and judged unjustly. There is nothing in the Gospel that tells us that we should speak up when that happens to others, but on the contrary, Jesus said:

        Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

        • Eustace

          All I see are Christians judging each other. In direct contravention of your religion’s exhortation not to judge.

          You’re all at it. One Christian judges another and is judged by him in his turn, and then you pile in with your damning verdict on both of them.

          They’re wrong for daring to judge each other, but you’re perfectly entitled to judge them. And the cherry on top of the pie? All Remainers are intellectually and morally deficient. Thus spake Albert and it was good in the eyes of Albert, sorry, I mean the Lord.

          If you don’t understand the untenability of your position, nothing more I can say will make it any clearer. There’s no point in disturbing Narcissus as he gazes on his own reflection in wonder. He’s oblivious to anything else.

          • Anton

            “All Remainers are intellectually and morally deficient. Thus spake Albert”

            Do tell us where he said that.

          • Albert

            Okay, so here’s a way forward: either you provide evidence that Fraser has not been unjustly attacked, or you provide evidence that a Christian is forbidden to speak up for someone unjustly attacked.

          • Eustace

            Here’s another way forward: explain how your attitude of casual and contemptuous judgment is Christian. Just to remind you: “…the Remain position: intellectual and moral laziness”.

            Of course I do know it is Christian. Truly Christian, i.e. the way Christians actually act rather than the idealistic nonsense they preach.

            Ah well, another priest is caught with his pants down. Metaphorical pants for once, but pants nonetheless. Pants. Totally pants…

          • Albert

            Just to remind you: “…the Remain position: intellectual and moral laziness”.

            Why don’t you quote what I actually wrote?

            this is the story of so much of the Remain position: intellectual and moral laziness.

            You missed out the “so much”, because of course, it rather counted against your own position. There is no doubt that the point I made is true: Fraser has been unjustly attacked, and now you are unjustly attacking me for justly defending him.

            As for the rest of your post, I haven’t the faintest idea what it is about. It certainly isn’t about what I asked you about:

            Okay, so here’s a way forward: either you provide evidence that Fraser has not been unjustly attacked, or you provide evidence that a Christian is forbidden to speak up for someone unjustly attacked.

            This challenge you apparently cannot meet. That’s why you resort to misquoting me and being generally abusive.

            What is the matter with you?

          • Eustace

            The more you write, the more you reveal yourself as nothing more than a manipulative politician.

            I did not misquote you. Every word I placed between quote marks was written by YOU. You accuse Remainers of intellectual and moral laziness. Whichever way you look at it, that is judgment.

            I have no interest in internal Christian quarrels. The argument between two Christian witchdoctors that apparently enthralls you leaves me profoundly bored and disinterested. What does interest me is the reaction of other Christians to the dispute. In they pile, like adolescent boys watching a quadrangle dust-up, shouting “fight! fight!” And then the more manipulative among them start to pontificate about the rights and wrongs of the conflict.

            It’s these manipulators who interest me. Those who preach a gospel of peace and non-judgment and then proceed to put the boot in, judge, denigrate and condemn.

            This is the kind of conflict that reveals the profound disconnect between Christian philosophy and the reality of the Church and those who run it. As you continue to try to wriggle out of taking responsibility for your remarks, you reveal yourself as a morally bankrupt hypocrite. You can’t own up to committing one of these sins you harangue every else about, much less publicly repent of it, can you? That would undermine your power and moral authority. Like all Christian witchdoctors, you’ll keep any admission of personal sin to general remarks about us all being sinners. Others sin individually, but your sin is always swept under a collective mat, because to admit specific failings in public might raise doubts about your ability to provide moral leadership. And that would never do!

            By all means, keep on changing the subject and trying to divert attention away from yourself. Each time you try, I’ll merely ignore you and keep asking the same question: why can’t you admit a specific sin committed in the full glare of public notice on this very blog, repent of it and undertake not to sin again? Why can’t you do exactly what your religion requires you to do? I suspect it’s because you don’t believe the rules apply to you.

          • Albert

            I’m not bothering to read this. I saw the first line, and it is evident to any honest reader that you missed out a salient part of my sentence – thus you misquoted me. You show little understanding of what you critique. You make no attempt to defend positions you take. I don’t need to argue with you – you own posts are your own undoing.

    • David

      Well put Albert.

  • Jolly Roger

    All these clergy are just noise amplifiers.

    • cmma01

      The Bible addresses clearly this using of facebook or twitter to publish opinions on other people or just generally spout our own, quite clearly.  All scriptures from English Standard Version.

      PROVERBS 10:19
      When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.

      JAMES 1:19
      Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;

      PROVERBS 18:2
      A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

      PROVERBS 29:20
      Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

      PROVERBS 21:23
      Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

      PSALM 141:3
      Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips!

      ECCLESIASTES 9:17
      The words of the wise heard in quiet are better than the shouting of a ruler among fools.

      ECCLESIASTES 5:2
      Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few.

      MATTHEW 12:36
      I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

      PROVERBS 13:3
      Whoever guards his mouth preserves his life; he who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.

      JAMES 3:6
      And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

      PROVERBS 14:23
      In all toil there is profit, but mere talk tends only to poverty.

      PROVERBS 15:1-2
      A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly. 

      PROVERBS 18:21
      Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.

      PROVERBS 12:18
      There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

      PROVERBS 17:27
      Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

      2 TIMOTHY 2:16
      But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,

      PSALM 141:3
      Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips! 

      PROVERBS 20:19
      Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets; therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.

      AMOS 5:13b
      Therefore he who is prudent will keep silent in such a time, for it is an evil time.

      PROVERBS 26:4
      Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

      EPHESIANS 4:29
      Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

      PROVERBS 29:11
      A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

      PROVERBS 12:23
      A prudent man conceals knowledge, but the
      heart of fools proclaims folly.

      JAMES 3:2-11
      For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

      • cmma01

        BTW, that was not specifically addressed to any poster but more as a general comment on the whole topic.

  • Anton

    Juncker (Luxembourg) and Tusk (Poland) insist that if we want (tariff-free) access to the single market then we shall have to continue with the open borders agreement. That is of course a negotiating position, not the truth. Off you go to Merkel and get your instructions, boys. And she has said that Britain should be “treated well” following the vote – because we do a load of trade with Germany.

    • Albert

      What’s interesting is that the European markets seem to my untrained eye, to be suffering as much (or as little) and the UK’s. So it would appear that our fates are linked together. If they want to speed up the break up of the EU, by smashing up their own economies, which, let’s face it, are far worse than ours, on the whole, then they are shooting themselves in the foot. Again. In the short term, it is easy for unelected commissars to make comments that ignore the electorate.

      Anyway, who is this Juncker fellow? Luxembourg is so small, that if he were British, he would perhaps make Mayor of Sheffield – which has an equivalent population by some measures.

      • Ivan M

        They need the UK in there as a counterbalance to the French and Germans. For now they will pick on the UK as the bad boy of the cartel, but they will miss him when he goes .

        • Merchantman

          Think the French realise they need the UK as partner to counterbalance Germans. Nothing has changed.

          • dannybhoy

            Good point there. Someone described the French as something like a woman who flirts and manipulates others to get her own way.
            Something like that.
            The Germans need the French but not economically
            The French need the Germans because the germans are the most powerful nation in Europe and have whacked them twice in two world wars…

      • bluedog

        Indeed, and the risks within the Eurozone economy are illustrated by today’s report from the IMF declaring that Deutsche Bank is the world’s riskiest bank. Apparently George Soros took out a short position on DB worth $100m the minute Brexit was announced. With a derivative exposure reported to be USD 45 Trillion, it would appear that George has the wind behind him. Just imagine what happens to the Eurozone economy if the biggest bank in Germany fails. The scare stories about the banks in the Club Med will be totally eclipsed.

        • Ivan M

          I believe the 45T are netted out. Ie, there is little by way of naked positions. Although they are said to fail the “stress tests”, the conditions under which they fail are catastrophic to take down the economy anyway.

          • bluedog

            Understood, these positions are always supposed to net out. The problem is that when one position becomes non-performing it frequently sets off a chain-reaction that forces large numbers of different exposures to similarly default.

        • Albert

          Perhaps Michel Sapin’s comments are realistic and pointing the way forward. In the end, a good deal for us is a good deal for everyone, and a bad deal for us hurts everyone. If the EU wasn’t such an economic basket case, then they might be able to follow through on their threats.

      • David Harkness

        Albert, I think the people of Sheffield are far more discerning than you give them for.

      • IrishNeanderthal

        How could the Luxembourgers have elected such a man to be their prime minister? I have copied the following practically verbatim from this Wikipedia article.

        Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sinn or Mir wölle bleiwe wat mir sin (Luxembourgish for “We want to remain what we are” – the second version being in the old spelling) is the national motto of Luxembourg. It refers to the ambition of the Luxembourgish people to remain separate from, and independent of, those neighbouring countries around it that have traditionally tried to dominate it politically, economically as well as militarily and, as final goal, to annex it: Belgium, France, and Germany (Prussia before the first German unification of 1870-71).

        The phrase’s origin can be traced back to De Feierwon (meaning the Steam Locomotive), a patriotic song written in 1859 to pay homage to the first international (cross-border) railroad in the country. Its chorus reads:

        Kommt hier aus Frankräich, Belgie, Preisen,
        Mir wellen iech ons Hémecht weisen,
        Frot dir no alle Säiten hin,
        Mir welle bleiwe wat mir sin.

        In English, this reads:

        Come here from France, Belgium, Prussia,
        we want to show you our homeland
        ask in all directions,
        We want to remain what we are.

    • William Lewis

      “She has said that Britain should be “treated well” following the vote – because we do a lot of trade with Germany”

      She has also said that there will be no change to free movement of people.

      • Anton

        Well, we”ll see; this is what negotiations are all about, including setting out a position at first and claiming it is non-negotiable.

  • preacher

    So much for the ‘intellectuals’ of the remain camp. If this is what the E.U has done to them in forty odd years, I’m glad we had the common sense to leave now – before it got worse.
    Sad, sad people.

  • Anton

    Boris isn’t standing. Gove and May will. (Or Will may?) Of those two, Gove please. May is a petulant mind-changer over Brexit. Gove had the guts to stand up to the teaching establishment and has what it takes to lead the negotiations in Brussels. Crabb seems a decent man but campaigned for Remain. I hope for more hats in the ring yet.

    • sarky

      Please, please , please, please not May!!!!!!! She is absolutely hated by the people she is going to need most.

      As far as I’m concerned it has to be a brexiter and Gove has the intellectual clout to pull it off.

      • dannybhoy

        We don’t often agree, but on this we do.

      • IanCad

        His name is also on the roll of shame. Not a contender in my book. The list of is further down the thread.

    • dannybhoy

      I am pleased that Michael Gove has changed his mind, and I guess he didn’t want to be a front man but he would be happy to be a right hand man and give his counsel.
      I think he realised that Boris didn’t quite have what we need at the moment, (and perhaps Boris privately admitted as much?) so he has put himself forward.
      The man’s a brainbox
      An idealist and has steel in his spine. He may well be the best one to lead us on.
      There are no perfect leaders. Some can lead as bolshie dogmatists, some as populists, some as conviction politicians. I think Michael Grove has the right basic skills and with time he will grow in confidence.
      Here’s a nice picture of him with his wife, and we know that every man is incomplete without a good woman backing him…
      https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/0084738bdc9627d8953f6e46bfd267881e75793a/261_70_2209_1325/master/2209.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=cb1b7fb266e87e8e9f34960b5c530822

      • Anton

        We know quite a bit about what happened between Boris and Gove because of an email that went astray (deliberately?)

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3666934/Mrs-Michael-Gove-tells-husband-NOT-Boris-Johnson-PM-gets-reassurance-bombshell-leaked-e-mail.html

        • dannybhoy

          Hi Anton,
          Sometimes a wife knows what is really best for us and sometimes she may think she knows what is best….. :0(
          Anyway, looking at the two of them together, she obviously makes him feel good about himself and I like to think they love each other for the very best of reasons.
          My greatest concern for Michael Gove would be his ability to handle criticism and spite. If he is able to find ways of dealing with that through sharing with (particularly) his wife and family, he will be the stronger for it.
          If he wins I hope he will find a way of thanking Nigel Farage and giving him a role suited to his skills.

          • Anton

            Given that he took on the teaching establishment, and referred to it publicly as “the blob,” I think we can be confident that he is able to bear criticism.

            Farage deserves a lot – but what? He’d be wasted at Westminster, and he might not be a details man for the negotiations at Brussels. (How about Bernard Connolly for that?) Any suggestions?

          • dannybhoy

            Yes he did take them on, but as far as I understand it a PM’s job is not a happy one…

            See the comely Sarah addressing Michael…
            ;0)

          • Nige – bartender in the Commons?

          • dannybhoy

            Unkind, but very funny. Unfortunately I can see that in my head..

    • Eustace

      Told you the hatchet man wouldn’t wear the crown.

      It’s all about the women now. May looks set to foil Sarah Vine’s plot to annexe Sam Cam’s dressing room at Number 10. And if Eagle takes the Labour leadership, it’ll be handbags at dawn during PMQs, with Sturgeon lobbing tartan-coloured nukes across the border. Perhaps that’s what influenced Mrs May’s striking(ly hideous) choice of campaign launch outfit this morning.

      Even if Gove defeats her, we all know whose hand is stuck up his rear end operating his mouth. The Monstrous Regiment of Women is upon us. That should make the vile old Inspector choke on his pipe and fall off his perch. It’s an ill wind…

      Lady Macbeth, have you never read any Shakespeare? Silly question, I suppose. The Bard is not encouraged at the Daily Mail. Too many words of three syllables or more. So you don’t know that usurpers always get their come-uppance in the end, do you?

      Pass the popcorn. This should be fun to watch…

      • Anton

        Here’s some Shakespeare for you:

        This precious stone set in the silver sea,

        Which serves it in the office of a wall

        Or as a moat defensive to a house,

        Against the envy of less happier lands,–

        This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

        • Eustace

          Cheap bombast was Shakespeare’s real forte, wasn’t it? No wonder he’s your national poet.

          I prefer:

          Il revient à ma mémoire
          Des souvenirs familiers
          Je revois ma blouse noire
          Lorsque j’étais écolier
          Sur le chemin de l’école
          Je chantais à pleine voix
          Des romances sans paroles
          Vieilles chansons d’autrefois

          Douce France
          Cher pays de mon enfance
          Bercée de tendre insouciance
          Je t’ai gardée dans mon cœur!

          Much less overblown and jingoistic, don’t you think?

          • Anton

            You raise Shakespeare as an obviously gifted poet and playwright and then when I quote him in patriotic mode – just one of his many modes – you disparage him. You are hardly a model of consistency.

            Loving your country is a good thing. It’s disliking others that is a poor show.

            The 100th anniversary of the Somme begins tomorrow, by the way.

          • Eustace

            We fought on the same side only because there was a common enemy. My enemy’s enemy is my friend. But when the enemy is defeated and peace returns, the lack of respect shown by the so-called friend and his insufferable habit of being convinced he always know best makes real friendship impossible.

            We’ve made it up with Germany and are now the best of friends. You can have a decent conversation with a German without being abused and shouted down. We’ll never be more than unwilling allies of necessity with the English. You’re just too foreign.

            At first I was against Brexit as being bad for Europe. Now I see it’s un mal pour un bien. Without your dead weight forever pulling us down, we’ll move forwards. Glad to see the back of you. Hope you don’t linger for too long.

          • Anton

            So do I ! As to where you move, be careful what you wish for. Love Europe, hate the EU was my attitude before the Referendum, and it is unchanged.

            Are you like de Gaulle? He never forgave us for bailing you out.

          • What makes you believe your own people support political union? The peoples of France and Holland rejected the new EU constitution in a referendum in 2005. Nevertheless, the Lisbon Treaty was imposed on EU peoples without public consultation in 2007. Only Ireland held a referendum and this had to be re-run until the right outcome was achieved.

          • Eustace

            Who said anything about immediate political union?

            Closer cooperation. A common fiscal policy. A joint security strategy. These things must happen before political union takes place.

            Political union will happen, but it’s still years away. There’s no rush. Many support the idea already. More will follow as the older generations die away leaving only those for whom Europe is a fundamental part of their identity. It’s a question of time.

          • Anton

            “Common fiscal policy” slides off the tongue but what it means is Germany setting tax rates and government spending in Greece, Poland, Hungary etc. In your dreams, maybe, but in their nightmares. It won’t happen. Meanwhile the strain of monetary union without fiscal union is growing. If fiscal union is impossible, as it is, then monetary union will have to be undone. Do you prefer that to happen in an orderly fashion or a disorderly one?

            Your predictions have proven so accurate in the last 7 days…

          • Eustace

            Like my prediction about Boris Johnson, for instance?

          • Anton

            O, you called that, did you? I must say I don’t remember but if so then well done. I was content merely to comment on the past and precede my comments about the future with Ifs. Except for one, the one that mattered: the Referendum result.

          • Eustace

            One lucky guess does not a prophet make.

          • Anton

            Three points:

            Prophets never guess.

            I’m not a prophet.

            It wasn’t divine revelation but it wasn’t pure guesswork either.

          • La France est une garce
            N’oublie pas de la baiser
            Jusqu’à l’épuiser
            Comme une salope

          • The Explorer

            “Your national poet.” Are you assuming your French identity again? Have you left the UK already?

          • CliveM

            He’s so fickle.

          • CliveM

            Mawkish

          • Pubcrawler

            I was just about to say that.

          • CliveM

            It must be self penned.

          • magnolia

            No, it is a French song. You can find it on Youtube sung by Charles Trenet. It has a tinkly tune and some twinkly little hand movements and lots of sounding the last err sound (unstressed e) of each line. Clearly to the taste of some….

          • CliveM

            Really! Right going to check it out, thanks.

          • Pubcrawler

            Hold on to your lunch

          • CliveM

            To late……..

          • CliveM

            Well I’m stunned and not in a good way. Stock, Aitken and Waterman eat your heart out!

          • Pubcrawler

            More a Guy Béart man, myself…

          • magnolia

            Not only a rhyming couplet but a rhyming triplet! What is it about the French and rhyming couplets/ triplets? Do they not get how aphoristic they can sound, so over-ready to tie everything up in a neat little bow? They are a significant reason why so many French songs are rubbish, this ridiculous love affair with the rhyming couplet, which has its uses (light verse, and deliberately aphoristic verse like Pope and Dryden) but decidedly limited ones.

            And to compare that with Shakespeare’s blank verse in (largely) iambic pentameters.

            Zut alors!

          • Prefer this:

            La France est une garce
            N’oublie pas de la baiser
            Jusqu’à l’épuiser
            Comme une salope

            FranSSe, by Makela.

          • Eustace

            I see. So you’re the kind of Catholic who advocates copulating with a slut until she’s exhausted, are you? A slut who would of course not be your wife, and who would clearly never have consensual sex with such an old wreck as you. So you’d have to force her.

            You are in fact a devout Catholic who advocates rape.

            I’m really not surprised…

          • *gasp*
            It what it says?

          • Eustace

            That’s right, plead ignorance.

            Richard Makela, or Monsieur R as he likes to call himself, is no French patriot. He’s a Belgian of Congolese extraction. The words you quoted are from a song that certainly didn’t reach number 1. It did however get him dragged in front of a court on a charge of inciting racial hatred.

            The case was thrown out. He was not. Of France, I mean. But that’s freedom of movement for you. You have to take the bad with the good.

            And you quoted this appalling song. A misogynistic rant advocating sexual violence towards women. Don’t pretend you didn’t understand it. Even you know how to use Google Translate.

            Quite honestly I didn’t think you were that evil. But I stand corrected.

          • Catchy tune, what?

          • The Explorer

            Why are you thinking French? How chauvinistic. Think Europe. (What language you think of Europe in is, I concede, problematic.)

          • Eustace

            French is one of the languages of Europe.

            English may soon not be.

          • Inspector General

            English is what’s used when the world communicates with each other, you fool…

          • Anton

            Au contraire, the absence of Britain from the EU will make it much more possible to have English as the lingua franca of the EU, as of course it should be.

          • Eustace

            Lingua franca?

            ROFL!

          • Anton

            You don’t think that was accidental, do you?

          • The Explorer

            Consider how France was once a puppy: a geographical area of different dukedoms etc, with variant dialects (Provençal, Oc etc) As France became a grown dog, and the geographical area became a political unity, the dialects followed. They were still allowed, but one version of French had to be the standard. (Richelieu, the Academy etc.)

            The EU is currently a puppy, but – if it survives – it will one day be a grown dog. When it is, what will be the standard language? French will be allowed as a dialect, but what will be the standard?

            To equate Europe with the EU is sleight of hand. English was a European language before the EU existed. It will still be a European language. It may not be one of the dialects of the EU.

          • Inspector General

            Ha! French. As spoken in Gaul. You’d be better off learning Arabic, especially if you’re going to visit Paris. How the French have fallen. Schoolboys will one day learn of Napoleon and rub their eyes in disbelief…

          • Pubcrawler
          • Inspector General

            http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/06/30/paris-pride-parade-will-be-cut-short-over-security-concerns

            The activists afflicted are far from happy. Yet if there was another muslim killing spree, they’d be down on the authorities live a ton of AIDS.

      • dannybhoy

        “Even if Gove defeats her, we all know whose hand is stuck up his rear end operating his mouth. The Monstrous Regiment of Women is upon us. That should make the vile old Inspector choke on his pipe and fall off his perch. It’s an ill wind…”

        You are seriously gross.

  • chiefofsinners

    Would anyone who does not want to be the next leader of the Conservative party please raise their hand. No-one? Oh.
    The British Geological Survey reports minor earth tremors due to the number of hats being simultaneously thrown into the ring.

  • David

    Please not May. It would be wrong to reward the losing side. We need a tough negotiator with the intellect to bring about Brexit.
    I do hope Gove changes his mind and rises to the task. OK he looks like the school swat but he has the determination, the courage and certainly the intelligence. Failing that Fox is a good, sincere man of courage who can unite a broad front.

  • chiefofsinners

    I can tell you first hand that Fox is very sympathetic to Christians and Christianity.

    • Anton

      First hand? So that’s who you are.

      • chiefofsinners

        Like L I am.

    • dannybhoy

      He wants to cure us?

      • chiefofsinners

        He is us.

        • dannybhoy

          Fox?
          Liam Fox?
          Sorry which Fox are you referring to?

          • chiefofsinners

            Liam Fox. Good man. Pray for him.

  • David

    Rejoice !
    Gove is standing – just announced.
    We need a brain with courage, who believes passionately in the UK.
    He’s done for Boris, now he needs to torpedo Mrs May.
    Standby ….

  • magnolia

    So tired of the Facebook sheeple, some of whom have a thing called a brain that they have stopped using in order to bleat, largely:

    meme, meme, meme – I’ve grown up knowing nothing other and the sky is falling
    me me me me – my pension pot might suffer
    meah, meah, meah- racists, bigots, the dangerous “other”.
    mwah mwah mwah- I love my continental cousins but not quite so keen on those nearer at hand and to whom I am more closely related. Love and kisses. Adieu, adieu, adieu, we may never meet again………the world is horrid.
    ..
    Best thing is just to ignore but they assume the right to foist their vaporous outpourings on others as the aggrieved party, with the assumption that none of it is potentially offensive to friends and acquaintances, and its 98% emotive outpouring with not a decent argument in sight (and I’ll admit there are a few). And no recognition at all that other European counties have people who agree with the exit vote.

    • Anton

      Send them to Greece for their gap year. See where European culture came from – and is going to.

    • preacher

      Laughter is the best antidote. They are angry & helpless, rather like a beached Whale, out of their natural habitat of getting their own way, big, but stranded by their own inability to alter the situation.
      Gently lead them out of their sulky misery with humour – you are a winner ! If they continue to thrash about & moan ( Whales are full of blubber ) leave them with a smile & a cheery wave. If they enjoy wallowing in their bitterness, who are you to spoil their fun ? & some might envy you & wake up & smell the coffee & bacon.

      • David

        Well said – realistic and compassionate.

  • Seems Gove has stabbed Boris in the back. I don’t like people who say one thing – he said he wasn’t interested in being leader – and do another.
    A loyal supporting wife is one thing, a manipulative backseat driver quite another! Cherrie Bliar getting her hubby to sign up to the Human Rights Act springs to mind.

    • Anton

      Elizabeth Urquhart?

    • dannybhoy

      I don’t think Michael’s a back stabber Marie. I think he’s a man of integrity and though that if Boris wasn’t up to it he would have to step in for the sake of the country.

      • I can’t agree with you there dannybhoy. He saw his chance and took it. Thing is they would have made a formidable team. We know Boris is a bit of a ditherer and Michael is rather stern.

        • dannybhoy

          But Boris has yet to really prove himself -Uber was a scandal and a serious slight to the traditional black cabbies.
          I think more likely that Boris realised that perhaps either he wasn’t up to it or he didn’t really want it.
          This initial step is to bring some stability into the situation. To proceed with our withdrawal from the EU at our speed and with a cogent plan of how we will build oversea ties in trade and treaties.
          At the same time the Tories need to find unity particularly in the face of Labour’s current nervous breakdown, and Nicola Sturgeon’s plan to turn Scotland into CrankieLand..

          • Uber is a global company and Boris did stick up for our black cabs in the end.
            Boris is more of a global personality and visionary than Gove, and he did a great job of keeping the Lefties at bay.
            Moving on Andrea Leadsom’s intelligent, cool, calm and collected approach is good.

          • dannybhoy

            Yes I liked her -and incidentally Gisela Stuart did well too. But I don’t think she has the strength to cope.

          • Anton

            The black cabs keep taxi fares artificially high and with the coming of the satnav to outdate their knowledge it is high time that there was a free market in London hire. Sorry boys but the world changes.

          • dannybhoy

            Indeed, but part of the problem is that black cab drivers had to be registered and trained and worked closely with the various agencies. Anyone with a car can pretty much join Uber so clogging up the streets even further and increasing the danger of crimes against passengers.

          • Anton

            There’s a limit to how many cabs are needed and with Uber it is the act of seconds to copy full details of your driver and car to anybody you wish, something the Ubercabbie knows is done. The black cabs charge far too much and they are obsolete thanks to satnav and we need a mayor with some guts. Nowadays the fields are ploughed by tractors, not horses!

      • IanCad

        He’s also one of the signers of the plea for forgiveness. Forget him. We need real men of integrity not wishy-washy types.

        • dannybhoy

          Plea for forgiveness?
          Not know this.

          • IanCad

            The disgraceful letter, by 84 Brexiteers to Cameron, on the eve of the election. No one on it should be considered for leadership.
            The list is way down the thread. I posted it last night.

          • dannybhoy

            Ah that one!
            That’s not asking for forgiveness, it’s asking him to stay on…

            “Prominent referendum opponents within his own party however, including Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, were among 84 Tory MPs who signed a letter backing him to stay in Number 10.

            ‘We believe whatever the British people decide you have both a mandate and a duty to continue leading the nation implementing our policies,’ they wrote.

            Others, such as ex-cabinet ministers Iain Duncan Smith and Owen Paterson did not sign the letter but stated their support.

            Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/80-tory-mps-voting-to-leave-sign-letter-asking-david-cameron-not-to-quit-5963653/#ixzz4D57bfyRQ

  • Andrea Leadsome and Liam Fox are good contenders.

    • IanCad

      No Marie, They’re both on the list of shame.

      • bluedog

        Fox is unelectable, like Gove, but Leadsom is a rising star.

    • Dreadnaught

      When she has gained more political experience yes, but I don’t think Fox’s history will do him or us any favours.

  • dannybhoy

    Good old Alan Sugar was on LBC this morning with Nick Ferrari. He has (temporarily) withdrawn from the Labour party, and blames that stunt they pulled where anyone could join for £3 which resulted in all the excitable swivel eyed students and grubby lefties voting in ‘Jerrers’ Corbyn.
    Alan would have preferred David Miliband whom he believes could have led Labour to victory in the last election.
    Anyway it seems to me that Labour is currently stuck with an inexperienced leader who got voted in by people who only know how to criticise rather than construct.
    He has to go.
    As far away as possible.

  • Mrs May has said that if she becomes Prime Minister she will drop her call for Britain to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, saying she did not expect there to be a Parliamentary majority for it.

    • dannybhoy

      Well she’s just cooked her own goose then. We got along perfectly well without it anyway.

      • Will any of the Tory candidates back withdrawal from the ECHR?

        • dannybhoy

          There is still an ongoing determination by the international political elites to keep the status quo when it comes to the ECHR and the whole corpus of Human Rights legislation.
          This Referendum has exposed the chasm between the “hoi polloi” (and I include you in that Jack) and those who know what’s best for them.
          It’s almost as though our masters have unwittingly opened the door and given us a peep outside. Memories are stirring of what we used to be and why we were proud to be British rather than a Region…

      • Dreadnaught

        Tory Manifesto stated:
        We will scrap Labour’s Human Rights Act and introduce a British Bill of Rights which will restore common sense to the application of human rights in the UK. The Bill will remain faithful to the basic principles of human rights, which we signed up to in the original European Convention on Human Rights. It will protect basic rights, like the right to a fair trial, and the right to life, which are an essential part of a modern democratic society. But it will reverse the mission creep that has meant human rights law being used for more and more purposes, and often with little regard for the rights of wider society. Among other things the Bill will stop terrorists and other serious foreign criminals who pose a threat to our society from using spurious human rights arguments to prevent deportation.

        We can do this now and with our own Supreme Court actually being the Highest Court we are subject to matters regarding ECHR influence will be diminished. This can remain on the back burner while we sort out the economy during the present term.

  • Inspector General

    A warning from the Inspectorate

    Take NOTICE all you who have an interest in the appointing of the next Prime Minister…

    We are about to embark on a two year exercise to extricate ourselves from one damnably unpleasant organisation. An entity which has already announced that they plan to continue their nefarious influence on our destiny for years to come. Whomever is appointed will need to display the same ruthlessness as will be coming our way shortly.

    It is no place for a woman.

    A thousand feminists can scream about equality (whatever that is), and be joined by a thousand more and a thousand after that. But no amount of screaming will ever rewire a single woman’s brain to think like, and most importantly to ACT like, a singularly directed man. Or for that matter, to re-arrange a man’s brain into that of a compromising woman. Not a normal brain, anyway.

    This is no time to be indulging in silly PC nonsense. In fact, it’s time the silly PC nonsense went the same way the EU is going, sure you’ll agree. We need a man capable of ruthlessness up there. Too much at stake, you see.

    God Preserve The Union! God Save The Queen!

    • IanCad

      Absolutely Inspector; and our task is made all the easier by eliminating from consideration any candidate who signed that wretched plea to Cameron for mercy and forgiveness.

    • dannybhoy

      The year of living dangerously IG.
      I predict your death by a thousand stiletto heels by end of the day…

      • bluedog

        Kitten heels, to be precise.

        • Inspector General

          The Inspector has seen some heavy kittens in Gloucester. Still, in a few years time, they’ll be travelling around in motorised chairs…

    • Dreadnaught

      Looking at the sorry array of males; I totally disagree with your analysis your Inspectorship.

      • Inspector General

        We need to ennoble Farage, Dredders. Then he can join government as plenipotentiary Minister For EU Negotiations. He’ll do us proud.

        • Farage is finished in British politics. He’s become the scapegoat of both the left and right. And let’s be honest, his campaign was shoddy.

          • Inspector General

            Good grief! Your reputation on this site is a damn sight worse that Farage’s will ever be!

          • That’s as may be. However, Jack isn’t hoping to gain political power and this site certainly wont be choosing the next cabinet. As Jack said, Farage is finished.

          • Inspector General

            By the way Jack, have you put your name down with the now 4 million honorary members of the British Union of Fascists (re-established 2016) who wish to subvert democracy in the UK?

          • What? And have to spend time with the likes of you? No thank you!

          • Inspector General

            Masterful reply, if one might say..

          • dannybhoy

            He will remain the catalyst that brought about this sea change in our nation. O so many people were called racists and worse by the Blair government. Nobody dared debate it for fear of Blair’s attack dogs.
            Then we found out that there was another factor behind this unlimited immigration, and that was Blair’s determination to change our society for ever..
            Unless Nigel had kept up his campaign and rallied so many to his flag, I doubt we would have ever had the chance of a referendum.
            And we are yet to see what changes will be made to find an acceptable solution. As has been said before (and BluedDogs link spelt it out, the EU needed us more than we need them..

          • Anton

            Hear hear!

        • Dreadnaught

          Now that I agree with wholeheartedly… Lord Farage of Faggenpint!

          • Inspector General

            Make a good pubs name…

          • Pubcrawler

            It would have to have Woodforde’s Nelson’s Revenge as a regular beer. And Shepherd Neame Spitfire.

        • With Farage what you see is what you get.

  • The Explorer

    Do C of E Remainers consider what a dreadful name the Church of England is? ‘Church’ is demeaning to other religions, ‘of’ has the connotation of possessiveness, and ‘England’ should have no place in the wider context of Europe. ‘Anglican’ is hardly better, with its implied dismissal of the Celts.

    All language, in fact, is intolerably parochial, and the sooner we can abolish language the better.

    • Anton

      [ ]

    • David

      Words fai……..

  • Anton

    Gove was put up to it by his wife. And he was formerly Chief Whip. I’d say who this reminds me of but I couldn’t possibly comment.

  • chiefofsinners

    Boris has been shafted, by Jove!

  • Anton

    This might shift a few DVDs if he makes it to No.10 – Gove’s film debut:

    • dannybhoy

      A chaplain no less..

  • Anton

    Students say they could fail their exams because they’re ‘grieving’ about Brexit:

    Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/30/students-say-they-could-fail-their-exams-because-theyre-grieving-about-brexit-5976730/

    These are presumably the (about to be) ‘graduates’ who are in numerical preponderance among the Remainers. What an asset to the country they will be!

    • James60498 .

      I wonder whether those saying such wonderful things about the economy voted Conservative last time.

      I rather suspect most were wailing about having an evil-Tory government and how the Tories would destroy the economy and punish students.

    • Pubcrawler

      Exams? But May Week finished ages ago…

  • chiefofsinners

    Good old Michael ‘Hezbollah’ Heseltine. He has detonated another bomb inside the Conservative party. His fury against Boris is surely borne of thwarted ambition. Looking at Boris must be like looking in a cruel distorting mirror. Same blond mop, same rambling delivery, same maverick instincts. Yet somehow people rally to Boris. He wins votes and he wins hearts.
    Who would be Gove tonight? Trembling with the dagger in his hand, knowing he has wounded a beast that is far his superior and that, if it chose, could annihilate him with a swipe of the paw. Boris might cut a Ted Heath-like figure for a few months, but in the long run he will either wreak a terrible revenge, or the mere threat of it will drive Gove to insanity.

    • Anton

      Nah. Gove = Urquhart. And Juncker’s next.

      • bluedog

        Who is Mattie, then?

        • Anton

          You May guess (though I couldn’t possibly comment).

      • chiefofsinners

        Gove is characterised by impulsive, swaggering actions. He loves the limelight and the grandiose gesture, but he lacks attention to detail. He thinks he’s a visionary but he leaves a wake of destruction. Had it not been for Boris, his career would already be over and we would be staying in the EU. Theresa May hates Gove
        with a passion and with good reason. They are polar opposites. He has amply demonstrated that he lacks moral integrity on numerous occasions. The man is an embarrassment.

        • Anton

          They are indeed opposites. He is a conviction politician. She changed camps over the EU. All she has ever done as Home Secretary is lecture us more and more about what we can’t do.

          • dannybhoy

            yes but at least she hates Gove; that’s got to count for something surely? :0)

          • chiefofsinners

            May would not be my preferred candidate. Nor Boris. Gove, though, is only attractive in the same way that a black hole is attractive.

          • Anton

            For taking on the Leftie consensus in the educational establishment that has systematically wrecked education for the intelligent poor in this country since the 1960s, he has my profound respect.

          • chiefofsinners

            Gove tore into education knowing what he didn’t want but without a workable replacement. For this he has my enduring contempt.

          • Anton

            He realised that the only way, in the short term, to deal with the Leftie consensus that has wrecked education, was micromanagement. That makes education a bad place to work in, but they brought it on themselves. Compare what the schools turn out today and 40 years ago.

          • chiefofsinners

            What schools turn out before and after Gove is very similar indeed.

          • Anton

            Yes, the Lefties in the teaching profession prevailed on Cameron to move him from education before his reforms took too great an effect. A major problem remains the impossibility in practice of sacking lousy teachers.

          • chiefofsinners

            Currently the greatest difficulty is recruiting teachers, good or bad.

          • Anton

            I’m not surprised. Given that you can’t cane them or even bawl them out, disruptive pupils are able to ruin classes for the rest, and would-be teachers know this as they went through the system only a few years before.

          • chiefofsinners

            But given that thrashing children, electric shock therapy and waterboarding are now the preserve of the CIA, other factors which affect the supply of teachers must be considered.
            Rapid change to organisation, the curriculum and assessment increases workload. Without a persuasive argument, or research evidence, that it is worth the effort, teachers are demoralised. Combine that with a pay freeze and worsened pension terms and many of the best people just walk away.
            This is what I mean by Gove not thinking things through. Nor does he listen when people try to tell him.
            This time he has signed his own death warrant. I will not be at the funeral.

          • Anton

            I think he’ll be able to take your absence.

            Electric shock therapy and waterboarding are perhaps a bit much for schoolchildren; reserve those for students who don’t repay their loans. But corporal punishment was part of Mosaic Law and what you want in a classroom is a deterrent that children will FEAR. Without that you get continual disruption from a minority, and the education of the majority suffers. The disruptive minority does not fear today’s sanctions. No wonder nobody wants to go into teaching and morale is low, when you are not permitted to do what is necessary to hold the classroom. The point of corporal punishment is as a deterrent. It should hurt at the time but not cause any pain after for more than a few minutes.

          • chiefofsinners

            The corporal punishment debate is irrelevant to Gove’s failure at Education. It was illegal when he arrived, illegal when he left and he never sought to change it.
            The changes he did make have disheartened the good teachers and worsened the recruitment crisis.

            He is not equipped to be prime minister. As someone once said.

          • Anton

            Yes of course corporal punishment is a separate issue from Gove. We have been discussing both but where did I conflate them? Gove failed at education because Cameron heeded the Leftie teaching establishment and moved him on prematurely. Would you be part of it?

          • chiefofsinners

            We have not been discussing corporal punishment. You introduced it in an attempt to explain teacher shortages without blaming Gove. I am attempting to hold you to the subject: the defects and cock ups of Machiavelli Gove, axe murderer of old London Town.

          • Anton

            Subject to His Grace’s approval I am free to introduce any subject I wish; you chose to take it further with your comment about waterboarding. I have explained my views of Gove and I do not see any response to my most recent ones about him other than insults to him.

          • chiefofsinners

            Of course you’re free to wriggle onto other subjects if it helps you.
            On the original argument, you seem to be saying that if Gove had remained at Education the teaching profession would have come to love him by now. They would be lining up to come out of retirement and waves of new graduates would be beating down the doors of teacher training colleges.
            Not so. An increasingly beleaguered Nicky Morgan and Nick Gibb are valiantly trying to sort out the chaos he bequeathed them. Which is what we’ll all be doing if he becomes Prime Minister.

          • Anton

            O, let readers decide whether I am wriggling. I neither said nor implied that Gove was going to be popular if left in place; I said that his reforms would be for the better in the teeth of opposition. As he was removed before they took coherent effect, we do not have the results to answer that question.

          • chiefofsinners

            My point being that Gove’s reforms have continued after him but they cannot be successful because they have not persuaded sufficient numbers of teachers to remain in or join the profession.
            You think anyone reads this stuff?

            Hey, look over there! STAB.

            Michael

          • Anton

            The point of reform is to give pupils a better education. There is not an immediate acute crisis of teacher numbers.

          • chiefofsinners

            Which reforms do you think have given pupils a better education, and what evidence do you have?

          • Anton

            I’ll answer that if you tell me whether you are involved with the education system and, if so, how. I’m happy to state my own (extensive) involvement with it on request. Meanwhile here is some relevant reading:

            http://schoolsimprovement.net/guest-post-changing-schools-a-look-back-at-the-gove-reforms/

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/michael-gove-proven-right-schoolkids-6301722

            http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-teachers-who-quietly-miss-michael-gove/

          • chiefofsinners

            Your first link merely describes Gove’s structural reforms, with no evidence they have brought improvements in educational outcomes.
            Your second is low brow propaganda shot through with non sequiturs.
            The third is purely anecdotal. The author has apparently found five teachers who like Gove.

            I am closely involved in education but cannot say more than that.

          • Anton

            I expect you mean “won’t” rather than “cannot”. I am the son of two teachers, one of whom entered the lower groves of academe during the Wilson expansion, and I was long inside the university system, lecturing and researching; I still do research with colleagues inside. While inside I saw what was coming up to us from the schools. Today I have a good friend who is a teacher in the State system. I grieve for people like my mother who got to Girton from a poor part of a northern industrial town, or another friend – now a very senior academic scientist – who did the same late in the 1970s, at about the last time it was possible. It is far more difficult to do that today. While I was inside the system, we had to extend the degree course by a year in order to put out graduates of the same standard, because they had learnt so much less at school. O-level physics and maths exams from the 1950s look like A-level exams do today, I can attest personally (these are my subjects). As for the Arts, my friend is appalled at the soft mush that is taught to pupils in these subjects in schools today; she regularly sits for absent teachers and finds is able to take the lesson in these subjects rather than just keep the pupils quiet. And keeping the pupils quiet is far harder than yesteryear because they do not have any fear of the disciplinary process, as they did corporal punishment (the aim of which is deterrence, not sadism).

            In maths, multiplication is sometimes taught in weird ways that work only in special cases. Exam questions are about the number of coins Lucy has in her handbag or the height of a building, not about X and Y. This shows a deep misunderstanding on behalf of the educational establishment. You learn the abstract principles of maths from specific applications, then go farther by dealing with the abstract concepts directly.

            The root of the problem is the teacher training colleges, which should urgently be abolished. They spend one or three years teaching people how to teach, but if you know your subject well, want to teach and have the personality to hold a classroom then what little more you need could be learnt on the job in a few weeks and best by mentoring, not a year of abstract lectures on giving pupils self-esteem. The teacher training colleges are at the heart of this disaster. In the 1960s and 1970s they led the movement not to stream pupils in schools – almost all – large enough to have more than one class per year. We have mercifully moved on from that but those colleges are still stuffed with dismal lecturers who learnt during that era. This is not about money either.

            What I know personally and what my friend reports today matches exactly what those articles say.

          • DP111

            They were taught by bad teachers. We are now in the third generation of bad teachers taught by bad teachers.

            Only solution is to employ contract teachers from Singapore. Unfortunately, they are hard to get, as their salaries are far higher.

          • DP111

            Cant sack all of them.

    • sarky

      Et tu brute

      • chiefofsinners

        Splash it all over.

        • sarky

          More of an old spice man myself!

          • Anton

            Aftershave – macho or effeminate? (Discuss…)

          • Pubcrawler

            Shaving: macho or effeminate? Discuss 🙂

          • IanCad

            Just plain unhealthy.

          • dannybhoy

            babe magnet for the visually distressed…

          • chiefofsinners

            Gove: macho or Machiavellian? Disgust.

          • sarky

            Sorry Anton, but you have to be a real man to carry it off.

          • Anton

            When I was at primary school there were two factions among the boys as to whether Action Man was great because he was a soldier or cissy because it was still playing with dolls.

          • Anton

            Please do carry it off.

          • chiefofsinners

            Throwing event at the Olympics? Discus.

  • F.A.B – 1689

    Depressing. Secular friends, family and now senior Christians hold a grudge over a leave vote.

    • Inspector General

      Freedom belongs to those that appreciate it. Your people are weak specimens. Tell them just that…

    • Erik Dahlberg

      Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words. Proverbs 23:9

  • Dreadnaught

    It’s totally juvenile to carry on each side blaming the other. We’ve had the result of poll and life moves on. I’m glad Boris is not standing but Gove has not covered himself in glory (or should that be Gory) and won’t make a good leader with his record of treachery and the overt influence of his wife.
    It pleases me to see Grayling backing May; a leaver and a remainer, uniting to bury the hatchet and setting an example to the rest of the Party and the Nation in pragmatically moving forward.
    If May’s speech is anything to go by, we could do a lot worse with any of the others perhaps the exception of Leadsome, who has only been an MP as long as May has been Home Sec: she could be a candidate for Chancellor though with her experience in finance.
    Sorry Boris you’d be great company on a stag night out, but that’s about it.

    • dannybhoy

      I just found this on the news…
      “Gove persuaded Johnson not to offer any
      future cabinet posts to high profile supporters, so as not to reduce his
      flexibility in government. So Johnson should not be blamed if some
      potential big-hitting backers, like Andrea Leadsom, could not be won
      over.

      Gove told the media he was quitting the Johnson camp and running to be leader without personally telling Johnson.

      http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-30/michael-goves-putsch-against-boris-johnson/
      I remain of the opinion that Boris was not the man to do the job, and that Gove has more of what was required. Did he stab Boris in the back, or did he weigh up all the alternatives and decide this was the best way forward?
      Unless he tells us himself. most is conjecture.
      We need to get in with the process for the sake of our nation.

      • Disloyal and manipulative by the sound of it.

        • dannybhoy

          Had he spoken to Boris first (which admittedly a Christian would see as the right thing to do), what would have happened?
          Would Boris have said, ‘Oh okay then, I’ll withdraw’, or would we have seen another row break out, further damaging the cause for Brexit?

          • Dreadnaught

            Common decency is common to all – that would have done it.

          • dannybhoy

            But this is a Christian blog, not a common one, so we mainly talk Christian see? ;0)
            The point is what would have been achieved? These guys are playing for big stakes. They don’t play by nice rules, and you don’t get to the top without being ruthless. We may not like it, we couldn’t be like it, but we need leadership.

          • Dreadnaught

            You know what I’m getting at Dan – common decency specially considering the show they put on. It’s like Wise telling Morecambe he’s going solo just before curtain up.

          • dannybhoy

            Yes I know what you meant. Just having a light hearted poke.
            I admit it looks bad. I do not like to think he was being deceitful or treacherous.
            Ruthless I think I could live with. Politics is a very dirty business.

          • Dreadnaught

            stress ye not

          • CliveM

            Give has made to many enemies now. The Cameroons hate him, Theresa May hates him, now Boris and his supporters hate him. I can’t see him gaining the necessary backing. I think he’s to devisive.

          • dannybhoy

            We’ll see.
            Being hated as some totalitarian dictator once said, I can live with. As long as they also fear me..
            (owtte)

          • Dreadnaught

            I think that was Vlad the Impaler.

          • dannybhoy

            You have a point. He might indeed have said it.
            But I rather think it was someone more recent like Stalin..

          • Dreadnaught

            Vlad had all the ‘points’ methinks.

          • Uncle Brian

            Perhaps Stalin said it quoting Caligula?

          • dannybhoy

            Ha! You obviously have a soft spot for ignoramuses like the Inspector and er, someone else….
            Thanks UB.

          • Uncle Brian

            You give me too much credit, Danny! I just said “perhaps”. The saying rang a distant bell but I wouldn’t have been able to put a name to it.

          • dannybhoy

            My ignorance is balanced by my generosity of spirit. :0)

          • Erik Dahlberg

            No it’s a little older than that. Caligula said it quoting Accius (Roman poet) according to Suetonius (Roman historian) Either way, someone ancient and unknown=venerable said it. Obscurity is profundity right? https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Caligula#Quotes

          • CliveM

            As you say we’ll see!

          • dannybhoy

            How are you anyway old chap? You have been fairly quiet of late. Trust all is well.

          • CliveM

            I’m fine, just busy at work. I noticed in the run up to the vote you weren’t around much! Busy?

          • dannybhoy

            I was pretty tired. the humidity was affecting the asthma/COPD and we had been involved with the Queen’s birthday celebrations and taking our Goddaughter out for the day (absolute delight but tiring).
            Anyway all the gasbags on this blog had pretty much said all that needed saying………….. ;0)

          • CliveM

            True…..

          • dannybhoy

            Notice I didn’t include you! I keep forgetting that you’re still at work. Have you got much longer to go?

          • Pubcrawler

            Caligula: oderint dum metuant.

            Oh I see someone beat me to it while I was watching the footie.

          • dannybhoy

            ” let them hate, so long as they fear..”
            Huh, I was well out with Stalin then.

          • Inspector General

            No. The Inspector was thinking Stalin. Or perhaps Beria…

          • dannybhoy

            You’re not much brighter than I am IG…… :0)

          • preacher

            He’ll probably be found in 700 years buried under a car park in Leicester.

      • Gove and his advisor Dominic Cummings, the Dastardly & Mutley of politics. It would serve Gove right if he didn’t get chosen as leader.

    • dannybhoy

      “It pleases me to see Grayling backing May; a leaver and a remainer,
      uniting to bury the hatchet and setting an example to the rest of the
      Party and the Nation in pragmatically moving forward.”
      Yeah, nothing to do with ambition or ego then?

      • Dreadnaught

        In a politician; Ego? – Never Sir – never I say.

  • dannybhoy

    “Mr Gove said that the UK needed a prime
    minister who believed “heart and soul” in Brexit, and – in an apparent
    swipe at his former ally’s late conversion to the Leave cause – said
    that he was himself suited to the job because he had “consistently”
    argued for withdrawal from the EU.”
    Read more at
    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2016/06/29/boris-johnson-and-theresa-may-enter-race-for-no-10/#Qd0k6VXvl3MAdSlr.99

    http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2016/06/29/boris-johnson-and-theresa-may-enter-race-for-no-10/

    • bluedog

      The problem is that nobody has yet told Mr Gove and Mrs May that they are unelectable. Despite their other abilities, neither of them can be accused of having an embarrassment of emotional intelligence or anything approaching star quality. If Labour produces a competent Europhile leader out of its current turmoil, a Conservative Eurosceptic government charged with executing Brexit would find itself very much on the back foot, if foolish enough to seek its own mandate after Cameron departs.

      • IanCad

        That is why I’m so disgusted with the all of the Candidates for CP leadership. So much so that I’m thinking of not renewing my membership and even wishing Cameron would come back.

        • bluedog

          And they wonder why the electorate holds politicians in utter contempt. Like the CofE bishops, they seem completely detached from the lives and behavioural standards of those they expect to lead.

  • Anton

    The present scramble for No.10 is perhaps best viewed as a spectator sport.

  • sarky

    Am I the only one starting to think that Gove threw his hat in, not because he has any ambition to be priminister, but to neutralise Boris so Theresa gets a free run?

    Just watch him be put in charge of exit negotiations when Theresa gets elected.

    • James60498 .

      Certainly a possibility

    • bluedog

      Exit negotiations? One can scarcely believe the bid for that role made by Tony Blair. Now if Cameron is the heir to Blair this means that in political terms Blair begat Cameron. So if anyone was silly enough to indulge Blair as the leader of Britain’s negotiating time, no prizes for guessing the name of Blair’s deputy.

    • Darter Noster

      As someone on the Today programme has wisely pointed out, albeit in less pejorative terms than I will use, when Michael Heseltine said he didn’t want to be Prime Minister no-one believed the useless, treacherous, back-stabbing git for a second; when Michael Gove said it, everyone thanked whatever deity they believe in and whole-heartedly agreed with him.

    • dannybhoy

      Too deep, too Machiavellian, too Sarky.. ;0)

      • James60498 .

        Too much like a politician, you mean. Or indeed a politician’s wife. Exactly.

        Of course it may not work for him. But that doesn’t mean that’s not his thinking.

        I have no idea whether it is. But it is no way impossible.

  • Darter Noster

    No surprise here. If you argue about things that don’t particularly matter to the Church of England – God, Jesus, theology, doctrine, morality – then you get the live and let live attitude, but as soon as you get into something that really motivates many Anglican clergy – left/liberal politics, political correctness, leftie sanctimony – they’re as capable of getting their cassocks in a twist as the rest of us.

  • David

    Well my Bishop has received a letter from me. As usual I have been polite but very plainly spoken. I emphasised the sufferings of the working classes directly as a result of the EU’s dogmas. I suspect that, up and down the country, many of them will be receiving “lively” letters.
    The C of E episcopate are so remote from the people that now they find themselves brought bluntly, face to face, with their own wrong-headed obsessions. Humble pie is on the menu at Lambeth I anticipate. They should get back to preaching the gospel and not lecturing us on their far left theories. But very good work continues to be done by many of the local vicars, who remain faithful servants of Christ. Let’s have fewer expensive bishops and more spent on direct mission shall we ?

  • Uncle Brian

    Today we have Wales v. Belgium in the quarter-finals. Which side will the people of the UK be cheering for? My guess is 52% for Wales and 48% for Belgium.

    • Anton

      Why? The Scots and Northern Irish will back their fellow celts, and the English are rather peeved at the Scots at the moment but not at the Welsh. I reckon the UK is solidly behind Wales here.

  • Shadrach Fire

    Such ingrained arrogance of the Remainers that they alone know the truth beggars belief. I find it hard as a Christian to understand why any other Christian can’t see the inherent dangers for Christianity by staying in a super state.
    I appreciate the claims of the Remainers and understand the basis for their beliefs. However, I for one am prepared to suffer short term consequential loss in exchange for a better safer future.

    • Anton

      Yes, but let’s keep grumbling about the Remainers’ reaction in-house rather than to them. We won, after all. Our goal now is to ensure that Brexit actually happens.

      There is an unhappy ambiguity in the phrase “This decision of the people is to be executed”…

  • James60498 .

    I have just met one of the 7% who supposedly regret voting leave. I told him he was being bullied.

    He immediately said “yes. I probably am”. “My wife who is a committed remainer is bullying me” he said and he admitted to being influenced by the other nonsense.

    So much for the 7%.

    • chiefofsinners

      The BBC reports that in a Newsnight poll “48% of people believe that there should be a general election before Brexit”, to put the deal to the people.
      48%? That figure sounds familiar.
      Something including the word Sherlock comes to mind.

    • magnolia

      The bullying has been immense. For some odd reason I cannot fathom passive-aggressive sulking, bullying, insults, and the forbidding of any smidgeon of rejoicing and frequently even talking about the subject have been regarded in many quarters as highly justified, and as clear entitlements.

      I am wondering whether this relates to mass media largely churning out the same mantras, so that anyone who diverges is seen as inexplicable and therefore near insane. Also many fear losing funding, and fail to realise that many of these jobs and so on will be funded by Britain instead of the EU.

  • DP111

    Of course Muslims and Hindus have voted to “Remain”. They want the Open Borders policy of the EU to remain in place. How long before Britain does not exist.

  • chiefofsinners

    Keen bird watchers have again heard the reedy warble of Labour’s Angela Vulture:
    “The UK is in crisis and needs strong opposition. Ergo Jeremy should resign.”
    She might as well add…”Because I know I can’t defeat him in an election, but I really, really want to be the leader.”
    There is an extraordinary arrogance on display from Labour MPs, refusing to submit themselves to the will of the party, and many will find themselves deselected.
    Let us imagine for a moment a government led by Michael Gove and an opposition led by Angela Eagle. Where could you find a more weasly pair of backstabbing, self-obsessed unelectables? Democracy would die of a broken heart.

    • CliveM

      If that were to happen, the U.K. would indeed be fffffffinished.

      I nearly typed something else………..

      • Anton

        “Far from well governed”, of course.

  • Uncle Brian

    “Theresa May is a great self-promoter, but a terrible Home Secretary”

    According to the Guido Fawkes website (link below), that was the title that the Telegraph was going to put on a long article by Jonathan Foreman, until they changed their minds and binned it, allegedly under pressure from the Theresa May campaign. Guido has the whole thing online. Here’s a sample:

    Take the demoralised, underfunded UK Border Force. As the public discovered after a people-smugglers’ vessel ran aground in May, it has has only three cutters protecting 7,700 miles of coastline. Italy by contrast has 600 boats patrolling its 4722 miles.

    Considering the impression Mrs May gives of being serious about security, it’s all the more astonishing that she has also allowed the UK’s small airfields to go unpatrolled – despite the vastly increased terrorist threat of the last few years, the onset of the migration crisis, and the emergence of smuggling networks that traffic people, drugs and arms.

    Then there is the failure to establish exit checks at all the country’s airports and ports. These were supposed to be in place by March 2015. …

    The most infamous was the refusal of visas to Afghan interpreters who served with the British forces in Afghanistan – as Lord Guthrie said, a national shame.
    Mrs May has kept so quiet about this and other scandals – such as the collapse of the eBorders IT system, at cost of almost a billion pounds – that you might imagine someone else was in charge the Home Office.

    http://order-order.com/2016/07/02/read-full-article-pulled-telegraph-pressure-may-campaign/